ABN AMRO Bank N.V. (AMS:ABN)

Investor Day 2018

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Nov 16, 2018

I see the last people taking their seats. Good morning, everybody, ladies and gentlemen, both in the room as well as on the webcast and, of course, our ABN AMRO colleagues, a warm welcome as well. I'm Diess Donker, Head of the Investor Relations team, and I will be moderating this day today. We would like to welcome you to the 1st Investor Day of ABN AMRO. And today is actually a very special day for us because exactly 3 years ago, on the 3rd Friday in November, we were in the Amsterdam Stock Exchange, and that was for the gong ceremony of our IPO. And today, 3 years later, we're hosting our 1st Investor Day in the London Stock Exchange. Now let me start with a few logistical remarks. Would you mind switching off your phones, please? That's always the one thing that can trouble systems. Secondly, the fire exit. There's 1 in the back over here and 2 on either side. Sorry, I feel like a stewardess, but we have to do that. And this is a paperless Investor Day. We have sustainability as one of our targets. So hopefully, you've brought your computers and your mobile devices. If not, please raise your hand. We have a backup plan. I don't see any hands raising. Very good. All the disclosures, in case you haven't found them, also for the people on the webcast, they're on the IR website under Financial Disclosures. Now before we start, I would like to introduce the people in the front row, our Executive Committee who are present here today. Would you mind standing up quickly, so the audience can see you? And we'll start with Kees van Dijkhuis, CEO. I'll go down the route. Tanja Kupe, our CRO. Let me see who's next. Peter van Mierlo, Head of Private Banking Christian Bornfeld, Head of Innovation and Technology Daphne de Cluys, CEO of Commercial Banking Rutger van Nauhaus, CEO of Corporate and Institutional Banking Frans van der Horst, Head of Retail Banking and lastly, Clifford Abrahams, our CFO. Now the program is as follows. You can see that over here. What you will see is that in the first block, we will discuss strategy, IT and risk to be followed by Q and A. Then we have a block with 2 of our businesses, retail and private banking. After lunch, we will have another 2 businesses, Commercial and Corporate Banking. And then Clifford will wrap up the day with the financial implications of all the speakers beforehand. There's ample time for Q and A, and we've structured it in blocks. So if you have any questions during the presentation, please keep them for the Q and A block. We will use a microphone, by the way, because people will follow us on the webcast as well and then they can hear you. Now before I hand over for Kees to start off the program, there's a little movie we would like to show you. Right now. Right now, trains are being developed that shoot through vacuum tunnels. Cars are being built that can solve traffic jams. Right now, flying windmills are designed to catch ever blowing winds. And jeans are being made out of plastic from our oceans. Right now, nothing less than a revolution takes place. More and more people put their creativity and energy into a shift towards sustainability. Sustainability. Sustainability. Sustainability. And no, that's not an expensive hobby of a few Vertical Forests, Vertical Farms, meats that doesn't need animals and beer that doesn't need new crops every year. Myboo, Pepper and Reeba, who help doctors work more efficiently. Microorganisms that grow into fashion, a fashion that can bust back into microorganisms. Right now, the shift towards sustainability is one of the most powerful changes of our times. And yet, these examples are just the beginning. We know that our clients all want to make this shift. We want to be the bank that leads the way. Good morning, everybody. Welcome today here in London. Very happy you're here with so many. There's a lot going on in the market, so we appreciate very much your time here, and we hope to use it efficiently. Also efficiently in the sense that we've come now here to London which also helps I think a bit. I'm very happy here to be here. As already said 3 years after IPO in the Netherlands. I have been CEO now since the 1st of Jan last year. And before that, I was 3.5 years the CFO of the bank. I think it's a good moment now to present our plans, but also what we have delivered and also the team. I'm very proud to present the current team. And everybody is already available for questions. I think the team is a good mix, very good mix actually of people from the business. All the business CEOs are from within ABN AMRO. And from outside, we have CFO, CRO, CITO. So it's a good balance. I'm around as CEO since the 1st of January last year, I said, and I have been able to build this team, and I'm very proud of the team. I think we delivered very good on our IPO results, what we promised there. And that is also done by this team already for the last 1 to 2 years. After me, Christian will tell you more about how we are innovating the bank at the moment and also preparing ourselves for the future as you've seen in the movie. Thijs then will elaborate on moderate risk and of course also on stress test results. The business CEOs will then update you on priorities, but also how we're going to deliver on our refreshed strategy, how we're going to execute it actually. And Clifford will wrap up the financial position of the bank. And well, we can show you then that also for the future, you can expect from us good results, attractive results and high capital capacity to return also capital. I will now start with the delivery of the IPO 3 years ago. Then I will talk you through the strategic steps we've taken already in recent years. And then as Seth elaborate on the four business lines and say something on income, cost, financial targets and capital, of course. If we look at what we realized since IPO, then we have delivered actually on 3 since 3 years on ROE, on capital and also on dividends. And of course, it's also based on the good performance of Dutch economy. If you look at the ROE, 12% in 2012, 2015. We've increased it to 14.5% last year, 13.1% 1st 9 months of this year. If I look at the Core Tier 1, 15.5% in 2015 increased to 18.6 year to date. The only target we're still working on is the CI ratio, but we're making good progress there as well. And this has always been a bit of a difficult thing for ABN AMRO, the CI ratio. I think we have already delivered there since the start of the bank with coming from 70% costincome ratio in 2010 to 64 when I became CFO in 2013. And this year for the first time, we will get clearly into the 50 area. 2 years ago, we sharpened our cost income target from 56.60 in 2017 to 56.58 in 2020. And today, as you've seen, we've sharpened it further to below 55 in 2022. We have delivered on all our promises in a disciplined way and we're also committed to continue to do that. And as you can see on the right slide right side of this slide sorry you can see that our share price increased by 25%, while the euro stock banks went down by 25% in the same period during in the last 3 years since IPO. As said, the current team has already taken a lot of strategic steps in the last couple of years. I already mentioned the sharpening of the CI ratio in 2016. But we also increased significantly the digital performance of the bank. 3 years ago in the retail bank, 1 third of our offerings was digital. Today, it's 2 third. We have sharpened the focus of the private bank, Northwest Europe and bought 6,000,000,000 assets under management Belgium. 3 months ago, we mentioned around CIB that we're going to sharpen also there the performance of CIB getting above hurdle again lowering ROEs from €39,000,000,000 to €34,000,000 And ultimately, 2020 to 2021, we will deliver also there an ROE again above 10% coming from mid single digits for a couple of years now. And last but not least, sustainability. A year ago, we already told you about the €150,000,000,000 mortgages we have to book that we want to increase improve actually the energy label from a D label to an A label 2,030. And that's about 800,000 clients. So that takes of course a few years. And finally in the private bank what we see at the moment, we have started that also by the way last year. If we ask new clients if they want green offerings 80% says yes to that. So that's also a good thing. These three steps, these steps I think are very important going after the IPO, but we have of course now new plans because we cannot be complacent about what we did. Because banks are challenged actually every day with their business models And it's not new because if we look at our bank 10 years ago, we had around a retail branch network of 500 branches and today it's 135. We had around 26,000 people. Today it's 19. We made a profit in 2010 of around €1,000,000,000 Last year, it was €2,800,000,000 And the 1st 9 months, it's actually €2,000,000,000 So we clearly managed also the last decade, the results. And as all banks were are were they were very much vertically integrated, advised clients and then gave clients actually the products they wanted. And what you see now, if you look at the trends at the left side, it's very clear there are a lot of trends now in society and in banking around technology, about unbundling value change, disintermediation, Open Banking and also the megatrends already mentioned to you with respect to climate change and sharing economy. And there's also new competition, of course, from Fintechs. They are offering, of course, targeted products, but also the big techs who are very getting very close to customers. And also we see a rise of new forms of dealing with clients in the form of platforms. I mentioned already a clear megatrend, sustainability. Paris Agreement, we think, has been a clear game changer there. Every stakeholder knows how important that is. And if we look at sustainability, we also have made that an important part of our new strategy, banking for better for generations to come. And our purpose is also the basis for the refreshed strategy. And what we see is that customers they want, of course, effortless experience and also proactive advice. And if we look at investors, they want of course attractive returns, but also a responsible investment opportunity. And employees like to work for a purpose led bank value driven. And society wants, of course, all integrate all the social impact. And what we have done in response to this, we have now decided to be even more as we are purpose led organization that benefit all our shareholders addressing the changes of the world. And that's the reason why we have refreshed actually our strategy into a 3 pillar approach. And the 3 pillar approach is based actually on sustainability. It's actually support our clients in that transition to sustainability, reinvent the customer experience and build a future proof bank. Sustainability, as already also mentioned in the movie, is we think a clear business case. And it means about engaging with clients, not excluding clients, very important. And we want them to help and also, of course, lead by example by what we do. And we are already known for that. We're in the top 5% of the Dow Jones Sustainability Index today. And our engagement survey shows that 93% of our staff wants to help building a sustainable bank. The second pillar is customer experience. And what we want to do there, of course, is first time right, always right. And we also want to move from products to customer journeys. We want more touch points actually with our clients. And Christian will tell you more about that. And also we see an extension of other services to adjacent industries. And we want to become also a service aggregator. We will build on our strengths, build on platforms and keep treasuring the customer relationship very important. And we have a good starting point with our banking apps. Take TIKI, for instance, a bit over 2 years now, 5,000,000 users. And the 3rd pillar is the future proof bank. And I'm already very proud of our staff. If you look at all what happened and what was delivered, that's been done by our staff. So I'm very, very proud about that. And in the future, we want to improve their engagement further by making their employee journeys easier, better IT systems, also invest more in staff, very important, and also improve our future our culture, sorry, yes, future of course as well. You will hear throughout the day that these pillars are the basis of our new refresh strategy and how we implement that actually in the business. Now let's start with the Retail Bank. Retail Bank, 5,000,000 clients, 20% of the Dutch population, primary bank. Strong profitability, 33%. Digital sales already mentioned from 1 third to 2 third. Decline in branches, clear sustainability opportunities in the mortgage portfolio. And we see also strong competition in the mortgage market. But we will stay disciplined in our margins. We expect that when the interest situation will normalize in the coming years actually, we expect market share for mortgages come back more to banks than it is now right now with pension funds and insurance companies because clients will go back to shorter interest periods. And with a continued focus now here in this part of the bank on digital and strengthening the customer engagement, We want to build additional revenue streams and France will talk more about that. Then if we go to the private bank. We are market leader by far in the Netherlands and also have a good position in Germany and France, 3rd and 5th position. Year to date ROE 23. We manage a little under €200,000,000,000 assets under management and 100,000 clients. We focus on the private bank in Northwest Europe onshore. That's the reason why we sold actually Asia and Luxembourg. And that we have now bought Societe in Belgium. And as explained before, in the private bank, sustainable investments are now the norm, 80% new clients take up. We want to lower the CI ratio in the private bank to below 70% in 2021. And Peter you will talk more about that. Then the commercial bank Dovna, leading SME bank and also clear sector focus. We serve over 350,000 clients. Dutch SME clients actually turnover until around €250,000,000 And we are primary bank for 25%, 1 out of 4 in the Netherlands Dutch Enterprises. ROE is good, 15%. With New 10 actually, we launched a successful innovator bank and set new standards actually for online borrowing. And 85% of all contacts, we want to initiate being initiated digitally in 2022. And we've also €1,000,000,000 available for circular business model to help clients to get to a circular business model. Dafne will say more about that. And then to CIB, there we have around 3,000 large clients, financial clients, corporates in Northwest Europe and also in some specific global sectors. And we leverage that also on our sector knowledge also to neighboring countries actually. We have issued now 12 green bonds €8,000,000,000 There are also challenges and opportunities here, especially in the energy and the shipping area. And we will focus actually here also on improving our cross sell and maximize efficiency. And we want, as said, improve mid single digits to above hurdle again. And we have seen now that the decline already from €39,000,000,000 RWA went down to €37,000,000,000 and we want to go to €34,000,000,000 percent. If we are there and ROE is clearly above 10% and we also feel comfortable about the Basel IV implications in this portfolio, we can grow modestly again also in this area by 2% or 3%. And Rethvi will explore on this further. Well, how does this all add up to the group? As said, when I joined in 20 13, operating income was €7,500,000,000 Last year, it was €9,000,000 That's a 20% increase in 4 years' time. So we grew significantly. But we have done it profitably. We've done it profitably because we went from 5.5% ROE to over 14% last year. So if you have to choose about operating income growth or profitable growth, we choose for profitable growth. And so for the coming years actually, coming 2 years next year 2020, we actually expect a bit of, as we mentioned here, a bit of a flattish loan book, which is based on our market discipline. It's based also on the interest environment. It's based also on pressure on deposits. And as I said, we expect interest rates to increase over time, which will improve, but we will stay disciplined for the coming years. You will hear throughout the days a lot of initiatives also here to grow fees and I think especially also investments in the investment area and the insurance area of the Retail Bank. We're also originating to distribute models in the area of especially Rotterberg. And we also think about inorganic growth. But when we will do that, we will do that not transformational. We will do it bolt on and we will maintain a clear strong capital position. So wrapping up, we expect some flattish growth book for the flattish loan book for the coming 2 years and afterwards, modest growth again in the coming years. If we go to cost, you can see we delivered there, I would say, for the well, for a long time for the first time for a long time. It went down significantly since 2010. And we see further cost opportunities, cost savings opportunities, and that's the reason why we have sharpened our CI ratio. It's also very much related to our IT landscape, and Christian will tell you more about that. And there are, of course, also some new revenue initiatives, which also help to bring down the CI ratio. Clifford, of course, in the end, you will also mention this further. If we go to capital, we have significantly improved our capital position in the last couple of years, €39,000,000 when I joined in 2013 to €18,000,000 and also paying increasing dividends. We are well positioned for Basel IV. We mentioned last week that our Core Tier 1 Basel III terms went up from last this year year to date from 17.7% to 18.6%. But actually the Basel IV was more or less flattish, which is around 13%. And you know our target is 13.5%. And that means that the RWA inflation, and Clifford will talk more about it, the RWA inflation went up from 35% to 43% from Basel III to Basel IV. We have now defined mitigating actions for that to bring back the Basel IV RWA inflation to 35%. That will bring, of course, again the core Tier 1 Basel IV above 13.5%, which is good. And that's the reason why I mean, I also have defined our target for next year for Basel III. We continue actually our 2018 target 17.5%, 18.5% also for 2019, subject to SREP. We did not have that letter yet. And that actually means positioned at 18.6% is, of course, a very good starting position for the New Year. Stress has also showed that we were very resilient also there. There's a constraint, however, which is the leverage ratio in the short term. It's around 4.1. And we are exploring at the moment a legal merger between bank and group for next year, and that might improve leverage ratio by 20 bps. There's also in clearing a discussion around the SACR method, which will help us by 50 bps in 2021 at the latest. If possible, we would like to, of course, have that earlier, but that depends on negotiations which are taking place right now in Brussels. So in the short term, it's a constraint in the medium term, actually perhaps even after next year, if we would realize a merger, much less. We have reserved 60% of our year to date results for dividend, and we'll take the final decision in 2019 February, also subject to SREP. So we expect for the coming years actually again strong ROE, strong capital position and creating clearly room for dividend payout above 50%. Then the targets. We sharpened the costincome ratio, as you can see, it's in green. And we updated the financial we updated the capital target ratio for 2019. And our quarter 1 is 18.6% as said. Wrapping up, we are a domestic champion in retail, private, commercial and corporate banking in a digitally savvy, strong Dutch economy. We have refreshed our strategy, support our clients accelerating their sustainability shift. We think this is the right thing to do, but it's also a clear business case. We treasure the customer relationship, very important, increasingly working with partners. And we expect in the coming year, as said, a flattish loan book and from 2020 onwards, again, moderate growth. We will deliver on cost savings and while maintaining room for investments in innovation. And our risk power profile will stay moderate. In the coming years, we will again deliver attractive returns and a high capital return capacity will be down. So as a management team, we will continue to do what we did since the last IPO. You can count on that and we will do that in a disciplined way. I would like to thank you very much. And I would now like to hand over to Christian. Thank you very much. I'll take questions later. Yes. Thank you, everyone. For those of you who I haven't had the pleasure to meet yet, my name is Christian Bornfeld. I'm the Chief Innovation and Technology Officer of ABN AMRO. I'm the latest addition to the management team. I joined ABN AMRO 9 months ago. Before I joined ABN AMRO, I've been working with all 4 banks for about 20 years, 1st 10 years with IBM and then 10 years with various Nordic banks in technology innovation related roles. So that's a little bit of background about me. At ABN AMRO, I now run a part of ABN AMRO that we also call innovation and technology, which covers the group innovation unit. It covers IT, back office, a number of support functions and various group programs as well. So that's sort of the mandate. Okay. So during the next 20 to 25 minutes, I'll give you a short update on 3 topics. One is my current view at the moment on where do we stand when it comes to IT, to digitalization and also to innovation. I'll tell you a little bit about how we are evolving our overall IT delivery model and what that means both from an output point of view, but also from our financial perspective. And finally, I will talk about how we are going about reinventing the client experience, both to generate new or to leverage new opportunities, but also to consider what does that mean for how we configure ABN AMRO going forward. So we're well positioned in the future. So but before I go into detail on that, I think Kees just introduced the three pillars of our refresh strategy. And for the topics that I'm mentioning, 2 of them are extremely well, the topics I'm touching on are core to these 2 of the pillars. So one is the reinvent the client experience and the other one is the future proof banking piece. I'll come back to the reinvent the customer experience a little bit later, but let me just introduce a little bit more on the future proof banking part because it's a quite broad topic. We have spent quite extensive time, of course, on refreshing the strategy. It's been a process that's been going on for the last 6 to 9 months. And we've been detailing out very specific initiatives and KPIs for each of these pillars. Under the future proof banking, we have come to the clear conclusion that it's not one thing, it's many things that is required to actually become future proof. So this area covers topics related to people and culture. So we know how important it is not just to have good people today, but to retain them to have great people in the future. So there are initiatives there related to developing, attracting and also retaining the key skills that we will need in the future. There's also a number of initiatives related to driving the employee engagement also going forward. There's another category of initiatives under future proof banking, which go to how we streamline and simplify the bank and make it more focused. And then finally, there's initiatives related to building capabilities, which is what I will touch on in just a second and capabilities in various different areas that we feel are essential for us to compete in the future. That includes innovation, it includes partnerships, not least data is becoming more and more important, but also IT and IT and information security. So also quite some capability building. But let me move on to the status on where we are today. So as I said before, I joined 9 months ago and of course very eager when you come in fresh pairs. You've heard all the sales pitch when you are going through the recruitment process and very eager to look under the hood and see what's actually there, what's working, what's not working. So let me share my observations for each of these pillars one at a time. On the IT piece, I don't you all know the history of ABN AMRO 10 years ago being pulled apart and then put back together again. That's not something that gives you simplicity. That is something that drives complexity. And indeed ABN AMRO has had quite a large number of application and a quite complex IT landscape. So around 5,000 applications or so was sort of the net portfolio, which is big for a bank of our size and our scope. Luckily, I would say the team has been quite diligent and focused in execution over the last 4 years and through a targeted effort, decommissioned a lot of applications and also replatform them, which has really brought down our application portfolio to a level. So we're now not at 5,000, but 3,000. And this has reduced both the complexity, but also the operational risk and at the end of the day allows us to take out efficiency over time. So a good effort there so and provides a solid base for us on the IT piece. Another distinguishing factor from ABN AMRO is the adoption of agile development practices. So for those of you who don't know, sort of pulling together teams, putting together teams from the business side and the IT side into small integrated teams, removing some of the inefficiencies that are traditionally in IT development due to the friction between the silos. ABN AMRO has done this not just piecemeal in some areas like most banks, but has done it across the board. I think that's a good move and it positions us very well for sort of the next steps in creating efficiency in the IT setup. So where does that leave us now and what have we working on the last half year? Well, the last half year or so, we have been sharpening up the rejuvenation plan. So even though we have brought down complexity, we still have legacy systems that will continuously need to be rejuvenated and replaced over the coming periods. The good news is it's not going to be a big wall to wall replacement. It's going to be a set wise replacement and we have clarified and sharpened the roadmaps in those areas. The main focus for us when it comes to rejuvenation the next couple of years will be in the risk and capital area where we have a complex system landscape and also in the area of credits where we believe we can add a lot more value to our clients if we rejuvenate that piece. If you look at the digital part, of course, an observation when you come into the Netherlands is that it is a quite digitally mature environment also compared to the rest of Europe. And that's certainly the case. We also see that in the statistics when you look at the adoption of mobile apps, Internet banking, extremely high for us and our clients and good experience there. That gives us a luxury in that we can actually design our processes from a digital first perspective. We can assume that people want to be served digitally and also that they that we can actually process things in a digital manner. We've been leveraging that opportunity the last 2, 3 years to really drive efficiency in the back office side and you will see the number of people we have in back office. We have been able to reduce that gradually over the last couple of years, and we certainly need to continue that. I would say my observation is what we can do within that narrow context today is probably tapped, but I think the next step for us is to look much more holistically across front office, mid office and back office, especially as we shift even more to digital in our engagement with clients, we can do even more. When you look at the digital engagement part, Kees already mentioned that we are pretty happy with where we are, and I would concur to that. I think retail has managed to establish not just one strong digital presence, but a portfolio of applications that we provide to our clients, which are cover a broad range and provide a very strong service to them. So I think from a retail point of view, I think we can truly say that we are leading in the Dutch market when it comes to serving them digitally, which is a great achievement because that's not where we were 2 years ago. When it comes to the digital interface, I think we are trying to or we will take the good experiences that we have from retail and we will leverage those for private banking and CD. We've already done that in some areas, but you will see our roadmap being executed over the next year or 2 and both Daphne and Peter will come back to the activities in that space. So overall, pretty good place from a digitalization point of view, more to do internally. On the client side, I think we're doing reasonably well, but that's an area that's always moving. So we need to keep the pace. On the innovation side, I must say that's one of the areas where I was most surprised when I came into ABN AMRO positively. And well, I guess that's also one of the areas where I'm also quite proud so that ABN AMRO has done quite a lot of things given the sort of bank we are in the area of innovation. I think a lot of that comes back to a DNA in the ABN AMRO employee base, which is extremely entrepreneurial, so which is really good. And you can see that sort of in the innovation efforts we do, lots of engagement, everybody wants to get involved. Over the last 2, 3 years, the building blocks around innovation have been put in place. We have a strong group innovation team with knowledgeable people from a broad range of backgrounds. We have a digital impact fund. We have the challengers. So I think the starting point is very good. What we're missing in innovation today is focus. So with the new strategy, with the refresh strategy that we are putting in place now that will give us the focus and will accelerate us in the innovation piece and make it even stronger. So very positive when it comes to the innovation area and our position there. If we dive into the IT piece and the IT delivery model, just to give you a little bit of historical context or a little bit context where we're coming from, so these are average 2015 to 2017 numbers. ABN AMRO as a group spends around €1,500,000,000 a year on IT. That cost is spent on 2 things. 1 is running the bank, basically keeping the lights on, running applications, fixing errors as they occur and then on changing the bank. This sort of split between 50 is the split today is 55, 45. Just to give you a reference point, most banks today that I work with across Europe when I talk to them are somewhere in the range between 30% to 40% of change spend. So actually being at 45% is above that range. So we generally do more change at ABN AMRO than our peers do around Europe. So that's a good place to be. That's where new value is generated. It also gives us, of course, some reflections on can that be optimized in one way or another. So therefore, we look into what do we actually use the change spend for. In ABN AMRO, we have a target to spend a certain amount of all our change effort on actually rejuvenating the IT systems, keeping them up to date and replacing them stepwise, as I mentioned before. I think that's a very smart thing to do, something we will continue to do. This is like replacing the spare parts in your car as they break instead of buying a new car every year. It is more efficient and it's also better from a risk profile to keep your systems updated all the time. So if you see banks go below 10% or so of their change capacity for that sort of thing, that's normally a warning sign. We also use quite an extensive part of our change effort on regulatory agenda, and we will continue to do that also during the coming years. So somewhere in the range of 20% to 30% of our change effort actually goes to purely regulatory requirements. But that's something that we're managing, certainly an area that we are prioritizing. That leaves about 50% of the change spend for business development and that's where we're also targeting to be going forward. From a financial point of view, one thing that's worthwhile noting that it's also different at ABN AMRO compared to peers is that we don't capitalize or we do very little capitalization of our IT development spend. That has that it has well, over time, it shouldn't make a difference. But in the shorter term, it does give us more flexibility in order to adjust our IT spend year over year. We are not carrying amortizations from previous year's IT investments into our budget for the coming years. That's a good place. But this is just where we are. And of course, IT is the most interesting place to be because things change all the time. So the way we developed IT systems 5 years ago is different from how we do it today. And if you look back 10 years, it's completely different. So that also means that new opportunities are rising all the time to become even better. So we have put together now a plan on how to take IT to the next step, both continuing on the levers that we had already identified and also adding some new levers. I think the main characteristic of the new plan for us is that it's truly a joint effort across the entire team that you see here on the front row. It's not something that IT can do alone. It's something that we will do together as a group because there are several levers and they cover these sort of 4 groups that you see on the slide. 1 related to demand, being even more focused in where we develop or where we put our IT investments, but also to do it together with the rationalization that we will be doing in our products and processes and coming together on joint platforms. So the demand side will be much more focused. On the productivity side, I mentioned before, we had shifted from traditional development into agile development. We will now over the coming years take the further shift into what we call DevOps, which is even more integrating teams and automating how we deliver software going forward that will drive even more efficiency. Together with that, we have a quite extensive offshoring setup in ABN AMRO today, which has been around for some years. There's also room there to drive additional efficiency, and we will also address that during the coming years. Finally, on the supply side, the entire industry is currently looking at what do you deliver out of your own basement, your own data centers versus what can be delivered from cloud providers. We have been quite early adopters in that space and we see certain opportunities there also for optimizing the way we deliver IT. So this combination of several levers gives us confidence that we can actually move the needle and stay ahead not just in efficiency, but also be the fastest in the market and also have the best access to the newest technology. So a quite broad plan. But if you look at this in sort of the broader context of the industry next slide, please. Thank you. This is sort of a simple framework that when the CIOs of this world come together and drink coffee, we use to compare ourselves sometimes. On the one hand, you have the CI ratios or the cost income ratio. On the other on the x axis, you see the IT spend a share of operating income. It gives you some sort of feel of how much are you actually spending as a bank compared to your size. ABN AMRO has in this context been what we call a Type 2 bank for quite some time. We have been spending quite a lot of money on IT every year. So we have been investing heavily. We've also been above the European average or the sample average when it comes to cost income ratio. So it also makes sense. Invest in IT to drive down your cost income ratio by reducing cost or increasing income. So the logic is certainly there. We've been a high investor in IT. Over the last year or so, the levers that we have been applying over the last 2 to 3 years on reducing number of applications and other things has allowed us to gradually reduce again the IT spend while still delivering the same. We expect that trend given the levers that I just mentioned to continue. So we will gradually be delivering the same or even more if we can, but gradually be pulling back our IT investments as the cost income ratio also goes down. So directionally that's where we're going. Next slide please. So on the IT piece to summarize some of the key levers that we're pulling here. On the demand side, as I said, continuing the work that has been going on for some years on reducing the number of applications. So you can say, well, the curve is not that steep anymore. But I would also tell you with the first two thousand are the easy ones. The next ones become a little bit more difficult and more difficult. So certainly, we expect the pace to be slower, but we still see quite some potential in simplifying the application landscape and it will be a strong driver for efficiency. We are also shifting, as I said, teams towards DevOps. That means more integrated teams, smaller teams and highly automated teams. So that projection you will see going forward from now on until 2020, we will have shifted quite probably the majority of our teams into a DevOps mode. And finally, the shift towards cloud, we see good potential for that for most of the new workloads that we put in place that we can leverage cloud and that will be a more substantial part of our installed base over the coming years. So in conclusion of that or the result of that is that we will shift our IT cost as part of our share of operating income from 16%, which it was in 2017. I already showed you we've already made a shift in 2018 and we will keep sort of directionally going there until we hit what we define as the sweet spot, which is around 12% to 13% as you saw on the previous slide. So this is directionally where we're taking IT. Yes, next slide. So let me shift to the next topic and over the next 5, 6 minutes give you a short introduction also to how we are approaching reinventing the client experience. I will give you sort of an overview on how we are approaching it Then each of the business lines will provide you with numerous examples on how they are actually doing it in each of their business lines because this is truly a joint effort between the INT team and the individual business lines on how we go about this. We have chosen to do a 2 pronged approach, so approaching the reinvention from 2 perspectives. 1 is a step by step incremental improvement on the client experience that you see here on the left hand side. It covers basically 3 focus areas that we have at the moment. 1 is improving Key focus area, you will hear that from many of the business key focus area. You will hear that from many of the business lines. The next part is moving to instant or we call it instant gratification, shortening the time that between clients engaging with us to they actually get the answer they need. We have done some things in that area, but we still need to move from days to hours to minutes in some of these processes. And that's by further automation, digitalizing inputs and outputs, but also automating decisions through the use of AI and other technologies going forward. And finally, using data analytics, continuing to extend our use of that to make sure that we become even more proactive in our engagement with clients and also relevant when we then engage with them that we know exactly what to talk to them about, providing a better client experience, but also increasing conversion rates for most of these processes. So the step by step approach, we will continue to accelerate that and we are doing that at the moment also by leveraging synergies across the business lines. But we need to combine that with another approach, which is more of a greenfield approach because we have been doing incremental improvements for quite some years. And there is that the downside with that is that you sort of lose sight of the bigger picture. So we believe that now is also the time to really start zooming out in a number of areas and zooming out in order to identify new opportunities, new revenue streams and also specifically on fee income, zooming out in order to also identify other areas where we can start engaging with clients even earlier also from a defensive point of view, so we can counter potential disintermediation. And finally, also zooming out to understand the dynamics in the value chain before they engage with clients engage with us and after, because many of the megatrends that we were discussing earlier or in Keis' presentation be that sustainability or others like urbanization, sharing economy or privacy issues, you need to understand a broader context to position yourselves well. So the zoom out part of the reinvention is really key also to our approach. But to make that a little bit more concrete, let me just show you a quick example. So what we do is that we select we have already selected and we're working with a set number of client journeys. We look at client journeys very holistically, also most more holistically than most banks that I know of at least, to really do this sum out exercise. So the example you see here, we call realizing the entrepreneurial dream. So it's actually co developed together with Daphne's team. We also have other journeys. I'll give you another example, comfortable and sustainable living, which is in France's area related to mortgages. So we do this for these selected journeys. We map them out, as you can see here, for realizing my entrepreneurial dream. This gives you sort of we've identified 33 sort of key decision point for a client as they go through that process from waking up one morning and saying, I would really like to start a company, so they're actually up and running. When we then look at these decision points, we identify that there are 4 out of the 33 where Agen Amroad today actually engages with clients. So it's only a quite small subset. Our main focus is, of course, to make sure that those 4 are really good. So we do that first. And within living my realizing my entrepreneurial dream, there are currently 2 areas that we're focusing on. 1 is the onboarding process, which is still too cumbersome. We've done great strides in that space when it comes to retail on onboarding through mobile app. We're trying to replicate that experience also for entrepreneurs. The other part is time to credit decisions. So as I mentioned before, phase is the norm, move that to hours or even minutes. And we're using our challenger banks like New ten to actually test that out and see how fast can we actually make that happen. And we've made good strides there. But that's again just focusing on what we're already good at. Now if we zoom out and look before at why we normally engage, we are looking at identifying various opportunities for engaging clients earlier. So in this example, it's by building communities where we bring together different people who are thinking about being entrepreneurs. It's by looking at new revenue opportunities where we partner with the traditional partners like insurance companies, legal advisors, accountants to add additional services that we can put in front of the client. But also after the normal engagement with clients that we look at how can we help them to grow their business later on by hiring additional staff or as very core to our new purpose and strategy as well, how can we ensure that they don't become just good entrepreneurs, but also sustainable entrepreneurs going forward. So again, identifying new opportunities. And each of the teams working on these journeys are identifying numerous opportunities every time and we're pursuing those at the moment. But a characteristic of these opportunities next slide please is that a lot of it we are not going to do ourselves. So us moving broader into the value chain does not imply that ABN AMRO needs to do everything. And I think that's something partly new for a bank. So most banks, as Kees mentioned earlier, said used to being vertically integrated or at least that's where we come from 10 to 15 years ago. So we produce what we sell, we sell what we produce. It's been a sort of simple model. That's no longer the case. And as many of you, I also know, 5, 6 years ago, the doom and gloom of banking was announced. Fintechs are coming to dis intermediate all of you. And then banks will no longer be vertically integrated. They will be horizontal. They will be big production factories behind a lot of fancy fintechs that will engage with your clients. So that was our scary scenario and what we were positioning ourselves towards 5 or 6 years ago. That did not play out. The Fintechs that engage with clients have struggled at least in the Continental European market to really generate revenues and also bottom line to be honest because client acquisition costs remain high. The fintechs that we were concerned about have not entered the market aggressively yet, but are more searching for to us and others to look for partnerships. Part of that can also be due to the Netherlands, while we think Netherlands is big, in the bigger scheme of things, maybe Netherlands is too small for a big tech. So I think from that point of view, we're also lucky that we, to some degree, are geographically protected in that sense. So how do we see this play out? We don't see it play out as a vertical. We don't see it playing out as a horizontal. We see it play out more or less in the what you see depicted here. So we see in the distribution piece that we still will play a very strong role with our strong digital propositions, but more and more together with our partners and also with our fintechs working together with them to provide very strong experiences towards our clients through the platforms that they wish going forward. On the production side where people predicted that this would only be banks producing, we're actually seeing a different dynamic there. We're engaging a lot more with Fintechs now in the production side and we see that we can narrow our scope as a bank more and more in the production side and actually work with Fintechs to provide core systems, processing end to end or specific solutions that we would not want to produce ourselves. So actually, as much partnership discussion going on in the back end as there is on the front end, which is not something we thought a couple of years ago. The final dynamic we see is that a lot of the services that banks produced historically have enormous scale effects and they have also become commoditized, which means there's a strong incentive to push into utilities where you can share the scale with other banks. We've not had a strong tradition for that in the Netherlands, but that is picking up at the moment, latest example being the collaboration with Rabo and ING on ATMs and cash handling that we announced not long ago. Okay. Next slide, please. Final point from my side, Challenger Banks. This is an area where we have been a front runner. We have launched several Challenger Banks from Avian AMRO over the last couple of years, and we've done that basically for two reasons. One is to develop and to test new propositions. And we have traditionally said it's also fine that you cannibalize the main bank. So we've really used this to give these new challenges the confidence, the space to really develop, which can be constraining within a bank, but also to be a canary in the coal mine, so to really see how powerful is the disruptive forces. So we've learned quite a lot from that. The other thing that we use the challenges for is actually to test technology. So as an IT person for a bank, typically we are as risk averse as Tanja who will be here in just a second. We are very cautious about replacing IT systems that are doing millions of transactions a day and need to run all the time. But by having the challenges, we've been able to in combination with the Digital Impact Fund where we invest in certain fintechs actually to bring that technology and test it at a smaller scale in a challenger bank and then based on that experience to leverage it much faster within the main bank than what we otherwise could. And you will see that sort of flow happening more over the next couple of years. So hopefully, we will be able to actually skip a generation of technology based on the experience that we build through our challenges. So 2 strong propositions for still doing that. That being said, over the coming months, we will review and continue to evolve the Challenger concept, so we ensure that we maximize the return that we get out of these challenges both from a financial point of view and also from a learning point of view as I just said. Next slide please. So finally wrapping up, I think solid starting point or solid base when it comes to the IT piece, pretty comfortable where we are, very happy proud of what the team has accomplished the last couple of years through disciplined execution. We have a lot more we can do and should do and that never stops in IT. So I'm sure when we've done that, there will be another sort of mountain to climb behind that. So looking forward to that, but lots of potential still. And finally, I think we are taking a quite holistic approach to how we reinvent the client experience and look for new revenue opportunities and also face off potential threats to our business model. And I think given if you look at sort of how we're restructuring ourselves and with our lengthy experience in working with Fintechs, having challenges ourselves, being one of the most progressive in the Netherlands when it comes to working with APIs, I think we're really well positioned when you look also for the coming years. So thank you. I will hand over to Tanja. Yes. I don't need this one. Okay. Thank you, Christian. Good morning, everyone. Very nice to meet you in person. It's I will first introduce myself before going into the slides. My name is Sanya Kruppen, and I joined ABN AMRO as Chief Risk Officer slightly over a year ago. Well, enough time to get a good grip on the risk profile of the bank. I'm a person that tends to have a positive stance, but it's my role as well to voice the negatives. With my team, I ask attention for the concerns, the adverse scenarios to be considered before decisions are taken and also ask for investments before go live. And you heard Christian talking about risk awareness in his department. I will share today how we do this. I see it as my role to make sure that we take risks, risks that we understand, that we can monitor over time and risks that we can price properly. So risk management is not about not taking risk. It's about taking the risk that we understand and to make sure that the risk profile of the bank is safeguarded. That is hard work every day again. It requires a lot of fine tuning and discipline and disciplined execution of the plans that we will hear about today. And about execution of plans, Kees already alluded to our strategy. And on my next slide, I will address how risk management is contributing to the execution of the strategy of the bank. And allow me first to say a few words on strategy before I go to the items on the slide. The strategic choices we make today will be very important in the risk profile of the bank of the future. I want to make sure that this current strategy and the choices we make keep us in our moderate risk profile. A few elements that I would like to mention how this will be safeguarded are the following. By focusing on supporting clients in the sustainability shift and our purpose banking for better for generations to come, we have our customers in the core of our strategy. This puts rigor around our choices on products, on sectors and on partnerships. It steers us away from the stranded assets of the future. And it also puts the duty of care and knowing our customers central to what we are doing. Our refresh strategy is not only close to my heart as a person, but also as a CRO. I believe it's a very sound basis for a moderate risk profile. So now moving to the bullets here on the slide, outlining our commitment in the strategy. Our geographical focus will continue to be mostly on the Netherlands and Northwest Europe, strong economies. We will focus on assets with the right risk return, and we will stay committed to a sound asset quality and strong balance sheet. We anticipate changes to come, whether it will be changes in economy, changes in regulations or changes in technology. Before I'm going to address the developments in the non financial risk area and my outlook, I will first go into credit risk because that's one of the most significant risk categories that I would like to address with you. So let's first go to the next slide and look at the strong economies that we serve. I said Netherlands and Europe are our dominant locations. And in this slide, you see that 70% of our clients are in the Netherlands and over 85% in Northwest Europe. GDP is expected to grow with over with 2% in 2019 in these regions. So we are geographically concentrated, but our business is actually quite well diversified 4 business lines you see here. And each business line we'll present today and you will see that performance and risk drivers are quite diverse. The loan books vary by business line in size. But if you look at capital expressed in risk weighted assets, it's actually quite evenly spread with Commercial Banking and Retail both good for 1 quarter and CNIB almost or slightly over 1 third. Impairments this year definitely had my attention and probably also yours. I would like to point you to the bottom two lines of this slide, and you will see that the average impairment since 2015 were well below the to the cycle cost of risk, as we indicated at IPO. But this average, however, doesn't tell the full story. And for that, I would like to take you to the next slide. Before I go to the charts on the slide, I want to emphasize that most loan portfolios perform well and benefit from the strong economy. You see that our non performing loans ratio has dropped from 3.5% in 2014 to 2.2% now, and I expect this trend will continue. Now going to the slide and first to the left hand side. On this slide, actually both charts, you see that the lines are show a rising trend. I do not expect this trend continue, and I will tell you why. On the left hand side, you see the rolling average over a longer period of time. And this trend shows that currently the cost of risk is well below the through the cycle cost of risk. From the low point in 20.70, it goes up in 2018. And on the right hand, I zoom into this. The different lines you see here are by product. You see 2 lines, 1 for mortgages and 1 for consumer credit. And the risk costs for both products are close to 0 over the past years. So actually, the elevated impairments are concentrated in our corporate loan book. And I will address that in the next slide and give you some more detail there. These elevated impairments were very much in specific sub segments. I have taken out 4 subsegments and these 4 make up 75% of the year to date impairments that we have written. The segments are offshore, TCF diamonds, shipping and domestic hospitals. The first three portfolios are in C and IB and managed by Rutger. The last one is in commercial banking and managed by Daphne. As discussed in the analyst calls over the past quarters, the level of impairments were really disappointing. These developments have, of course, my full attention, and we were assessed in great detail. We have tightened several policies, standards and procedures to make sure that we address any weaknesses underlying these portfolios. The CIB refocus is also used to reduce the exposure and the risk to the most cyclical parts of the portfolio being offshore energy and offshore supply vessels. Rudra will discuss this in more detail later today. The challenges in these sectors are not over yet, however, but the market seems to bottom out. I expect still some further impairments can follow, but not a new wave of elevated impairments. Also in TCF Diamonds, we have decided to derisk the book further. And the health care sector, we monitor closely, especially focused at hospitals. We do not expect any issues here, however, in the short run. So to summarize, I do not expect impairments to rise as indicated earlier. So let's go to the next slide and see how we maintain a clean and strong balance sheet for the bank. I already mentioned, we have a risk appetite that fully aligns with our strategy and is aimed at maintaining our moderate risk profile. We do this by defining clear limits for our country, sectors, products and clients. We set limits for the bank as a whole and by business line. And actually, this is not a it sounds very easy, but it's not an easy task. As we sometimes well, have discussions and frictions with the business lines when we at risk want to set limits at tighter levels or want to reduce the underwriting standards or tighten the underwriting standards in specific subsegments. So I'm sure that when you talk to Frans, Daphne, Peter and Rutger, you can they can give you examples of some of the discussions that we have from time to time. On this slide, here at the left hand side, I set out a few examples of limits we apply. For example, last quarter, as part of the CIB refocus, we set exposure limits and tightened underwriting standards for the sub segments that I just mentioned on the previous slide. Another example is in shipping where for some time already we are focusing on the environmental impact. And by setting policies, we prevent financing the most polluting vessels, and this will actually avoid us to finance the stranded assets of the future. So setting limits is not only good for risk management in the short run, but also, of course, has a positive impact in the long run. We also actively engage with clients. So it's not only about limits, and we actually define specific small envelopes in areas where we want to take some more risk to gain experience, to develop new activities. For example, innovative solutions in the area of energy transition and sustainability. Next to risk appetite setting, we take a forward look on our risk profile. And now I want to take you to the right hand side of the slide where we look at stress testing. We are testing our portfolios and limits against general economic scenarios and of course, adverse scenarios, but also individual developments such as a drop in oil price, rising interest rates or a correction in real estate prices. Most of these reviews are internal and focus on capital adequacy or liquidity or development in specific portfolios. And an example of that is a deep dive we did earlier in the year on our resilience for the commercial real estate portfolio we have. Well, these are all internal. Of course, they're also public stress tests, and Kees already alluded to the EU wide stress test for which the results were published 2 weeks ago. And well, let's go to the next slide to look at the results, where you see our results visavis some of the peers as well on the right hand side. Well, I was very pleased with the results of the stress test. We scored very well in terms of impact of stress as well as resilience to stress and the capital ratio remaining after stress, 14.9%, I think better than some of the starting points of other banks. In 2016, our CET run ratio declined by 5.9%, and now it's only 2.7%, a big step up. We rank in the top quartile of all the banks participating. And to me, this confirms as well our resilience to adverse economic development. So, so far I've discussed what a risk profile, moderate risk profile means, how we manage it and how we maintain the profile this profile by using the tools that I just mentioned. I also highlighted that the areas driving the year to date impairments are concentrated in specific, mostly global subsegments and that we took measures to control these risks. And last, I want to make clear that these subsegments are not representative for the whole portfolio. So let's go to my outlook for 2019. First, I haven't touched a lot on this yet on our mortgage book. Of course, a very important part of our portfolio. Our mortgage book is very healthy. I think this is a reflection of the Dutch economy and also sound underwriting standards we use. We see a strong increase of amortizing mortgages in our book and also a decline in full interest only mortgages. Loan to values are improving and are now on average 66%. And if you compare that to 2012, it was 82%, so a big step forward. You also see that the share of mortgages that have a loan to value of over 100% is disappearing, only 3% left. And if you compare that with 2012, it was still 21% of our portfolio. A development that we are closely monitoring is the rapid rise in prices house prices in the Netherlands and especially in the large cities. Well, the fact that we have in the Netherlands an affordability criteria, loan to income measure, is somewhat of a risk mitigant here. But the fact that our mortgage book is kind of developing flattish, and I think Kees alluded to this already, as such, is for me as a Chief Risk Officer a good development. Let's now focus to the corporate loan book in the middle of the slide. The corporate loan book is also benefiting from the positive global economy. But of course, also some clouds on the horizon. Well, Brexit is very much top of mind here, but also we see the impact of trade barriers. And both developments could have could hit our individual clients quite hard. So we have performed an assessment in Commercial Banking and CIB to look at the most vulnerable segments in our portfolio. Dutch clients with large trade flows with the U. K. But also container vessel companies active in international trade. This analysis has shown us that the impact on our portfolio of these developments is limited. But of course, as I mentioned, individual clients can be hit hard. And we see, especially in the SME segment in the Netherlands, that the level of preparedness is still quite low if it comes to the implications of a Brexit. Well, I think what has more my attention is actually the indirect effects of Brexit and potentially escalating trade wars as that could mean a slowdown in the economy. Still under such a downturn scenario, I'm positive on our ability to deal with such a scenario, and I just discussed resilience to an economic downturn in the stress test. In my opinion, the CIB refresh and the tightening of our limits and underwriting standards is well timed if we look where we are in the credit risk cycle. So to conclude, my outlook for 2019 is that under our refreshed strategy, the cost of risk will stay below our average cost of risk through the cycle of 25 to 30 basis points. And with that, I would like to move from credit risk to regulatory development and share some views there because we see that our regulators are using this period of positive economic development to strengthen capital. Let's start with capital first and then discuss TRIM. Regulators are in the process of finalizing capital regulations. You know we are well prepared for Basel IV, and Clifford later on will discuss that in a lot of detail. ECB is less focused on Basel IV. They are more focused on TRIM that aims at harmonizing the models for credit risk and risk weighted assets. We have received TRIM feedback for our market risk models, our mortgage models on credit risk, and actually, the impact of that was quite limited if it comes to our RWA. For 2019, we will get a review of our low default portfolio. And here, I expect some more impact as these models are quite a bit expert based, and this is not something that is favored under the TRIM regulations. Well, it's good to know that impacts of TRIM on Basel III will not have an impact on RWAs under Basel IV. So it will also not impact any increases of TRIM effects, will not impact our Basel IV readiness. Now going to the development in prudential regulations. Regulators also started to focus on nonperforming loans, and they use the current economic strength to reduce the stock of nonperforming loans on banks' balance sheets before the next downturn will hit us. ECB regulators require banks to apply prudential backstops and maintain a level a higher level of provisions to nonperforming loans as time progresses. Up to 100% after 7 years even for collateralized exposures. Well, as our NPL ratio is only 2.2%, we expect that the impact of this new regulation will be manageable. It appears that the regulators are picking up the dialogue on a phase in of this regulation, and we expect discussions as part of SREP. Well, the implications here are not yet clear, so it's too early to comment further on this. So let's now go to the next slide and further discuss non financial risks. Important in the developments of today, technology is developing rapidly, which means that non financial risk can become more dominant also. Cyber risk is managed by Christian, as mentioned, on a daily basis. In risk management, we make sure that cyber risk is an integral part of our control framework. Then going to compliance. Compliance is another topic that is top of my agenda. The topic of conduct, risk and the role of banks as gatekeeper to counter anti money laundering and terrorist financing is only increasing in importance. We take our role as gatekeeper very serious, and we invest a large amount of resources in fulfilling this key role. We have a very open and transparent relationship with our regulators, including DNB and the Dutch Financial Intelligence Unit. ABN AMRO is one of the frontrunners in developing public private partnerships in the area of fighting financial crime. As we believe, these partnerships add in the best way to the common objective of identifying and stopping financial crime. Although we take our role very seriously, there's always room for improvement. And therefore, we continue to develop and invest in this area. This is not only my role. It's my colleagues in the executive committee are involved in managing these risks all on a daily basis. Lastly, on this slide, I would like to call out the rapid technological and digital developments that change our lives, but also banking. And I think Christian alluded to that already. They're both a threat and an opportunity, a threat to our business model, which we are addressing by our strategy, but also an opportunity for new business, as my colleagues later today will highlight. In capturing these opportunities, we will take new avenues. We will try new technologies. We will work together with new partners and we will introduce new risks to the bank. It's very important, I would like to reiterate that we invest in knowledge and expertise to ensure we understand the risks. And if we don't understand the risks, we leave it to others. This approach will make sure the bank can take the next steps in a confident way. That brings me to my last slide. I conclude that we are very well positioned to maintain our moderate risk profile. We are committed to building meaningful relationships with customers in strong economies, only taking risks we understand and we can afford, and we are well prepared to anticipate and absorb the impact of changes. Thank you very much. And I would like to invite Kees and Christian to take some Q and As. There is a 30 minutes 25, 30 minutes of Q and A. For those who would like to ask a question, indeed, raise your hand. I see some already. We will use the mic. If you could start by saying your name and using the mic people in the webcast can follow us as well. Hi, it's Paolo from Goldman. Two questions. The first one is on your targets. You still reiterated above 50% dividend payout. You obviously accrue a little bit more than that already for this year and you highlighted flexibility. Can you help us understand how will you calibrate the ratio the payout ratio going forward? Should we assume that anything that complies with, let's say, Basel IV core Tier 1 ratio and leverage will be distributed. So that's the first question. The second question is on your cost. This is one of the targets that you actually revised today. You aim to deliver EUR 5,000,000,000 cost base by 2020. Beyond that, you're pointing to growth in income. Can you give us a sense of what growth in cost base you assume there? And maybe within that, and this is, Kristin, for you. I was a little bit surprised to hear that you want to lower IT spend. And I know we appreciate it's in relation to income, but why does it make strategic sense? With respect to capital asset, already earlier that we have this target range of 17.5%, 18.5%, which is actually calculated from the Basel IV framework and updated now on a Q3 level. We don't do that. I'm not going to do that also in the future every quarter, but I thought for Investor Day, it's good to give you an update there. Our normal procedure will be every year actually that we give you a new target range. And that is as said now with the mitigation actions, we feel comfortable now that the Basel IV is above 13.5% and the Basel III is 18.6%. And with so you start the year actually above your target range, and you're also very well positioned for Basel IV. But still, I have to say, it's 10 years down the road. It's hundreds of pages, and the EU has implemented, and there's a lot of discussion about it. So it's not certainty yet. It's not a law. So it's all estimates. And that makes us keeping some flexibility around the figures. As you can see already this year, the big divergence between Basel III and Basel IV. So we need that kind of flexibility for ourselves. But we are very well placed actually for 2019. And as said for 2018, we have reserved now 60% and we'll decide on that. But our basic position has always been and also communicated since IPO, I was CFO, I'm a very well member, that we said if we don't need money for growth or for well, if we do acquisitions, then the money is available for shareholders. That's what we've said. Of course, coping with Basel IV. With Basel IV, we are well placed. So yes, we're in a good position, good shape. And the cost question was around the $5,000,000,000 2020. That's our target indeed. And then what yes, well, we don't give nominal figures, actually, although in a way when we say it's a flattish loan book, although that's interest related and there's also deposits and there's fees. So it's not a complete guidance around operating income actually, but a bit off because, of course, a large part of our book is driven by interest. That's not part of our profits. It's driven by interest. So you can calculate it means lower it means nominal lower cost base. That's right. Can you use the mic, sorry? Apologies. Will the cost decline be true beyond 2020? Do you still aim to maintain cost flat, shrink them further by 2022? Well, we shrink from this year. Don't have figure for this year, but it will be above the 5% clearly. We have the guidance now of 5% in 2020. And then it depends a bit. We give a costincome ratio. So we don't give nominal figures actually. It depends on are we going to grow by 1% or by 2% or by 3% that and how much money is needed for innovation, what can we do in cost cutting, all the stuff. So it's driven by CI and not so much And that relates to operating income growth as well. Maybe I should answer my question. Yes. On the IT Investment side. I fully understand your question. It's something that we're managing also from a strategic perspective because IT is still it's a certain part of your cost base. It's also used to drive down or generate additional cost efficiencies, drive down cost. And it's also enabler, as we talked about, in regards to generating new revenue streams. So it's something that we are evaluating sort of that trade off all the time. I would say looking at where we've been historically also compared to the benchmark, we've been investing quite extensively, and we're gaining benefit from that right now. That's why cost is also coming down. I feel comfortable with the levers we have right now that we can pull back on the absolute euro spend on IT and still get the capacity we need to stay competitive with the peer group that we compare ourselves to. Okay. Who's next? Marcelo. Thank you. Marcelo Hoekoe from Credit Suisse. I have 3 questions, please. First on the lending growth or the growth of 1% to 3% post-twenty Can you give a split regarding the at least the products or the divisional that you're trying to realize there? As well as what would need to happen to realize 3% growth? That was my first question. The second question is on bolt on M and A. This time, I didn't see private banking in there. Do you expect to do some bolt on M and A in other divisions as well? And the third question is on the IT spend. You just highlighted a little bit already. The SEK 1,500,000,000, which I think increased from SEK 1,200,000,000, what extent is that a sticky number? How much flexibility do you have to lower it in case of lower revenues? Thank you. Thank you very much for the question. Let's start with the loan growth. I would say guidance our large book, you've seen it, the €150,000,000,000 mortgages. We expect that now due to the competition and margin pressure a bit as said, flattish and perhaps that book can even go down a little bit. It has gone down year to date, our loan book, mortgage book. As said, when we expect a more normalized interest environment, We think that it will be a bit more in the sweet spot of banks again instead of insurance companies and pension funds, and talking about then after 2020, by the way. So then it can stabilize or even grow a bit depending on the market developments in general, of course. The portfolio of DAFN €40,000,000,000 €42,000,000,000 Commercial Real Estate Commercial Banking loan book is very much related to Dutch economy. So 1%, 2%, 3%, depending on and our forecast is based on the Economic Bureau consensus, more or less 2% or something, and you can have some inflation perhaps down the road. And then the corporate investment book, corporate institutional book is going presumably a bit down as said because of the refocus in the coming 1, 2 years. But that can grow, I think I mentioned, 2% to 3% modestly growing forward. So it's a blend of the 3 actually. Inorganic growth, we have always said indeed Private Banking and that's still, I would say, well, nice words, sweet spot. That's the sweet spot of our inorganic growth still because there we are looking in Northwest Europe if there's something which we like. We do not exclude other sectors. We see something nice in other areas. We might look into it. But it's it will be small as such, not transformational, and we will keep capital in mind. Just on the IT related question. First of all, a clarification. I think you mentioned 1 point 2, 1.5. I think earlier this year, we communicated as part of another event a number called 1.2. That's for the Netherlands centralized IT. The 1.5 you saw today is our group level IT spend. So it's actually it's a slightly different number. So it includes all the international units, all the subsidiaries we own, including the challenger banks that I also mentioned today. So that's why the number is a little bit So just be aware of that. When you look at the flexibility in the cost base, I think we do benefit from being quite extensively outsourced historically. So we have quite a lot of our spend is external, which is something that is more variable than if it's internal staff. The other part would be, as I mentioned in the presentation, that as we don't put things on the balance sheet, we don't put the depreciations going through. So I think we can realize those savings quite quickly. Okay. Who's next? Who's the mic going? Yes, Robin. Maybe just a reminder, we've got Clifford, of course, at the end. So any finance related questions, please make sure that we still have some for Clifford as well. And Tanja is here as well. Yes. Thank you. Robin van den Broek of Mediobanca. My first question is on mortgages. You assume basically that the market will move back towards your sweet spot. But say that doesn't happen and the mortgage book based on the annuity framework starts to shrink, that basically feeds into your capital generation, where your capital generation could actually be above your earnings for the next 2 years, so to speak. Given where you are on capital, can you pay that out fully? Can a payout ratio go that high basically? That's my first question. Second question is on AML. Based on what the what you said on systems and the pulling it back out, pulling it back in, I think the ING case shows that it's more about procedures rather than wrongdoings within the bank. How comfortable are you that you are safe there? I think the field also gave some numbers last week saying that the number of suspicious transactions coming from banks is only 10%, which to me seems like a shockingly low number. So your thoughts on that will be appreciated. And the third one is on bolt on. I thought there were some caps on what you could do as long as you were under a certain state ownership. Could you remind us of those M and A caps? No, I don't think we have real caps there to answer that question at the moment. With respect to mortgages, yes, we think that there's a long history in the mortgage area. And of course, we look at also other countries that sometimes are in a bit more already advanced stage. With respect to the mortgage market, for instance Sweden, I think you know a lot about that as well. The fintech is much more active already in Sweden today than they are in the Netherlands. So we take that all into account. But still we think that when interest rates go up, clients these days in the Netherlands over 50% take up a 20, 30 years fixed. I advise my children as well. And then yes, that is not the place for us. It's not our ideal place. We can do some stuff. We've done some covered bonds for 20 years and then generate also 20 years mortgages. But it's yes, we also have a different capital regime than insurance companies and the likes. But when the interest rate goes up, what clients we think are going to do again when they have to take out a mortgage of, say, 3.5% or 4%, that they will say, look, it was 2 once or even one something. So why take again 30 years 4%? Why 20 years? So let's go to 10 years then. And we think also that insurance companies and pension funds do this at this moment in time because government bonds are not yielding and what have you. So also their business model is under pressure. They've taken up a lot of mortgages and they have also the kind of, well, pockets they want to invest and diversify. So we think that actually going forward this is and it will not go back to 75% banks in that market share. I don't think so. But I think it will go back to the 60s in a couple of years' time. But also on the capital generation, if you have tailwind basically on a shrinking book, can your payout ratio go that high despite your capital being where you want it to be? Yes. I think that's, of course, also to be discussed with regulators in the end. And of course, they don't like 100%. I don't have to tell you that. But theoretically, of course, if you make calculation, that could be an outcome. There is also the possibility of buybacks down the road. We have mentioned it for this year as well, this year it will be a dividend around 2018. But this is still an option going forward for the bank. And when the state sells down, we could align with that going forward as an option that's also on the table. Okay. I answer your second question on compliance risk, and I think it's why you heard you outlined it already in your question that policies and procedures are very important in elements in that, clearly outlining where roles and responsibilities are in this complex area to get it completely right. Well, the challenges are also in the well, having the right systems in place throughout the organization and have it all at par. So that's where a lot of our effort is going. With respect to the expectations of the Financial Intelligence Unit. Well, I mentioned already the public private partnerships and our close cooperation with different parties. And we feel that well, we know what they expect from us. And also they in these discussions, we learn how to best set our rules and to make our own way of working most effective in terms of identifying the transactions that need to be reported to these units. But 10% of total from all the Deutsche Banks basically, doesn't that seem like a very, very low number? Sorry, what do you mean by 10% off? So the field basically gave some numbers about suspicious transactions being reported to them and the banks only contributed 10% of that number. Yes. So I think what that's hard for me to comment, I don't know what other banks are doing, but we feel that, well, we are reporting in accordance with their expectations. Fakumari Autonomous Research. Just two questions at play. Firstly, a bit of a kind of IT and a risk question coming back to the anti money laundering discussion, which is how do you kind of get to what is a reasonable level under the kind of Financial Supervision Act in terms of those kind of looking for those suspicious transactions? I mean and maybe quantitatively, how many are you submitting? And is that a number that the regulator is comfortable with? And then kind of coming back to the IT side, obviously, what was going on at your peer was kind of very obviously not quite right. I mean, what's the kind of approach in terms of random kind of searching that you're applying for those kind of exercises when you do look for suspicious transactions? Thanks. So shall I I'll comment on the system piece. Yes. So maybe to comment on your questions. Well, of course, there is no regulators don't provide a level of where their expectation is in number of transactions. So that's a very difficult question to answer as such. But as said, we are in constant dialogue to make sure that we know what the expectations are and also to make our rules engine smarter and smarter and to be more effective in capturing the right transactions to be reported. So I think that's one element. The other element is that, of course, based on what happened in the European Banking Industry, we have reviewed all our policies, procedures and way of working to make sure that in all these areas, we address the concerns that have been found elsewhere. So we basically took lessons learned from that. Maybe you can tell something about the systems piece. I think on the systems piece, we have continuously invested quite extensively over the last 3 to 4 years in this space to make sure that we have a broad and also quite modern tool in this space that does capture all the transaction monitoring and transaction filtering things that you're referring to. Currently, we are running 2 systems in that space that both sort of monitor it. We get 4,000 alerts a month at the moment that are processed by our back office unit. And the relevant transactions that they identify as being truly suspicious are handed over to the authorities as they should be. I would say also, as Tanja was alluding to, I think we have a good collaboration with these authorities. So there is a good feedback loop and then telling us this was really a bad one, so please look more and then we adjust the rules or this one these were all bad or they were not bad. So please tune your model for that. So I think those feedback loops are also working well right now. So I think based on that dialogue, we feel comfortable that at least we're doing reasonably well. How many of those 4,000 are going to be on Florida? We don't disclose those specific numbers. And I would say generally they do vary sort of month by month. So there's also certain seasonality in it. So you can't just use one number, then I have to give you an average and then what are you going to use that for. So it's much lower. Much lower. You start with 1,000,000,000 of clients of 1,000,000,000 of transactions in a year. You have 1,000,000 of clients. You have 1,000 I think 50,000 in a year or something. And then the amount is really small single digit percentage actually. Next. Yes, Almert? Yes, Almert. Yes, Almert. Yes, Almert. Also in the interest of time, if we can limit the number of questions maybe to 1 at this point? I might throw in some questions into one question. It's Albert Blucher, ING. Yes, on Page 16, you're right that due to the strong ROE and a moderate RWA growth, there's further room for dividend payout to rise clearly above 50 percent in later years. So what do you mean by later years now? You have also given the 2022 targets in cost income. And also about clearly and a third question related to that. You made also remark earlier that there's preference to return capital to the dividend payout. In other words, dividends also clearly on the slide mentioned. But at the same time, if the Dutch state would decide to do some further sell downs somewhere in 2019. In case you do participate, for example, you want to do that also maybe with a buyback, does that will it be included in this 50% distribution? I understand you will not go to distribute more than 100% of your profits or capital generation in 1 year, but could it be an exception in case of there would be a sell down, for example? I think that we'll assess it down the road of course, but we might take action in 2019 in that respect with respect to sell downs as well. We will also look into dividend because that's also we have different kind of investors actually who appreciate different types of actions from us. So we take that into account as well. And then in the end, we will see what the total is related to actually the bandwidth, the target range we give. And of course, if we get scrap letters about nonperforming loans or what have you, that is also taken into account. So it's yes, I can't give an easy answer there. But and with respect to at least not a quantitative at this moment in time, but we do not now we do later years, we mean after 2018 because 2018, it has this leverage ratio constraint, which we would emerge here, which we're exploring. We're not yet there, not taking a decision yet. But that's a 20 bps. 20 bps is serious money, it's 1,000,000,000 dollars And the 50 bps of course, the 50 bps of clearing is even more. So that would take away, in our view, the leverage ratio constraint, even taken not even into account that the Dutch government, presumably U. S. Always has the 4%, has said in their coalition agreement that they will align with respect to leverage ratio to European approach. And we don't think that for European approach, our bank will get a 4. Okay. Who's next? Oh, it's a lot of Ten questions, yes. Benoit here. Benoit Petrar from Kepler Cheuvreux. Just one question. So on the cost income ratio, what holds you back to be more ambitious on cost income? Because I mean, clearly, if I look at the Netherlands, number of branches is probably now below 150. Digitization is very high. I mean, you have even board members and even supervisory board members coming from Nordea nowadays. So what can we expect on the long run on that trend, let's say, moving towards lower levels? Okay. Well, the first thing that holds us back is that we are always cautious so that we don't overpromise. So we underpromise, overdeliver. That's what we like to do. That's one. Secondly, we might need money for innovation. And we're not going to kill the business model by too stringent costincome targets. So we want to have some room of maneuver there. In the end, it's also, by the way, a mean to goal. So the goal is the ROE and the CI ratio is a mean, yes, it means. It's not the end goal. It's an in between thing. ROE is what is really important for you guys to get also capital returns. Next one? Yes. Bart Juris, Degroof Petercam. If I can pick up on that, if I'm looking at your outlook for your flattish loan book, you mentioned by yourself part of a decrease will be from CIB, which are low ROE loans there. Moreover, your cost income needs to improve and you're going to pay out more capital. Why are you not more ambitious on your ROE target then? Well, I have already a discussion in the Netherlands with a Dutch Central Bank governor about 10% to 13%. The Central Bank sometimes says 8% is more with the risk profile of bank these days. I think we have in a way a point there in the sense that our risk model is indeed could lead to a lower percentage. But that's we see investors asking the 10% plus and we can deliver the 10% plus. So that's what we do. You have seen that it doesn't mean that we can't go above the 13% in practice last year, 14.5%. So it's not that we can't do that, but our target is more or less the 10% to 13%, 10 in less good times and 13 in good times and what you can get above it or depends a bit on economic situation. But to make it a higher target, no, we don't feel comfortable with that. It's not that you foresee that bolt on acquisitions could bring your ROE down? No, that's not the reason. Jean Pierre Lambert from KBW. I have a question on sustainability. We saw the video. But I would like to understand more what's the contribution to growth of the loan portfolio? Is it negative or is it positive? Because you can have sustainability blocking applications because it doesn't meet your criteria or do you see opportunities? And also in terms of staffing, where is the staffing going? Do you have a team of specialists, which is central? Or is it located in the lending area? Is it located in the credit area? And I mean, how do you see that as a positive or negative for loan growth? We see it as a clear positive for loan growth because if we look at our clients, I was recently with a client in shipping in Rotterdam, you don't have to tell that guy anything about sustainability. He's building a ship for 25 years. He doesn't want to be literally stranded asset after 15 years. He doesn't want that. So they're thinking our clients think about sustainability already even more I would say sometimes than we are. Commercial real estate clients came to us 5 years ago. Can you help us? So private banking 80% when we ask. So that's high. So no, it's really in every corner of the bank. And we don't concentrate it. I mean, the partner of sustainability was indeed in the HR arena. And when I became CEO, it's now in strategy and sustainability. So it's now in my domain. But especially what we're going to do now, make it a business case, means that it's for the business guys and girls. So not for me. And about staffing? Sorry about staffing. I mean how many staff do you have in sustainability? And do you grow in that stuff? Not many. I mean it should be done in the business. So I mean the but I think it's a trick question. And given where we're going, I think everybody most staff, all frontline staff at least will be trained and be acting on sustainability as an opportunity. So the central unit is not as important, I think. Like a strategy department, a couple of 10 people. It's Nick Davy from Redburn. I'm going to try and sneak in 2 questions. The first one is to Christian about the sweet spot of 12% to 13% IT cost to income. How long does it take you to get to that sweet spot? And the second part of that is to say that seems to basically explain all of the cost income ratio decline of the group, which leads me to wonder why there aren't efficiencies coming out of the rest of the cost base in the period. And the second question, the shorter one, on the flattish fee guidance. Think most banks that stand up on Investor Days always look for the fee line to be a generator of revenue growth. So what's leaving you downbeat on fee outlook in the coming short ish term? Yes. Can I be can we save that one for Clifford? Because I'm afraid that otherwise it will be very quiet in the afternoon, but the first one? The first one on the sweet spot side. I think when we look at the sweet spot, as I said before, it's a balance of different dynamics. And we've set ourselves a sweet spot and not a target because we think directionally that's where we're going. And that's also where we've seen ourselves move over the last 12 months. And we can see some more direction going in that over the coming years. When we will exactly arrive at the sweet spot is something that we need to decide. As Kees was saying, we're also trying to keep our options open that if we need to invest more in innovation then we need to be able to do that. But with what we know right now directionally we're moving to the sweet spot. Okay. We have 2 more. Carrie here in the front. Is there a mic? Need to get some mics. Oh, sorry. No, Alicia, you got 1st. You would like to keep the mic, I think. You would like to keep the mic. Sorry, I didn't see it. It's difficult to see that you had a mic. Sorry, Alicia, go ahead. No problem. So just one question from me then, either to Keith or to Tanya. The DMV has come out recently saying that they are starting to look a little bit more implementing new macro prudential measures in the mortgage markets, so whether that's mortgage risk way add ons or it's LTV caps. On the LTV caps, there is a possibility that, that could slow down new lending. How do you think about that when you think about lending growth in the mortgage business over the medium term at ABN and what potential impact that could have? I know that's difficult given that they haven't given much guidance there. And then also on the regulatory risk front in terms of mortgages, clearly, the insurers have, of course, taken quite a bit of market share recently. But with Basel IV coming through and being much more penal versus Solvency II, is there not a possibility that actually they are structurally here to play and that market share might not recede because they're able to just compete much better on margins because their ROEs are just better? Useful to have your thoughts. Thank you. Yes. So I'm afraid I'm going to refer a big part of your question as well to the afternoon when Frans van der Horst will present on retail and on the mortgage market and all these developments. What I cannot comment upon is that, of course, Basel IV, we see that's coming already for a long time. And one of the measures that were mentioned by the regulators based on this recent publication is an early phase in of Basel IV. We feel that will not have a big impact as we are working on this assumption already for quite some time and are prepared for that. So that's what I can say. And I think on the well, the competitive environment, etcetera, I think France is the best person to come on it. Okay. Thanks. I promised Kiri a last question. Before we take a break. It's here at the front. Sorry, here at the front. Great. Thank you. Kiri Vijraja, HSBC. A question for Tania. So you did really well on the external EBA stress test, but I'm more curious about that internal stress test you did around sort of trade barriers and Brexit. And I wonder if there's any kind of numbers you can share with us. And I'm particularly interested how does the impact potentially split between the CIB type of activities versus your domestic commercial clients and sort of better understand where some of those vulnerabilities might be? Thank you. Yes. So, on these, well, internal activities, we don't, well, publish numbers. What I can say is that our CIB clients are better prepared for the implications of Brexit than some of the SME clients in our commercial bank. So the what number of clients potentially affected is much larger, but of course also with smaller exposures. As I said, we expect the impact to be overall limited for our portfolio and we expect the indirect effect to be larger. Also with respect to trade barriers, we see that trade is, well, changing across the globe and going to different locations. So in the end, while some individual companies can be affected, but if you look overall, you see that, well, the sector is basically reorganizing itself into a different setup. And also because of that, we expect that the implications are quite manageable for our portfolio. Okay. Thanks very much. That concludes the Q and A for now. We will take a 15 minute break. For those of you on the webcast, you don't need to disconnect. We'll just open it up in about 15 minutes. So that means a quarter to 12, please. Thank you. Yes. Okay. Is this enough? Okay. Then it's close. Does it work? Yeah. Yeah? Okay. Okay. Welcome back, everybody. Thank you for joining us again. The next block, we've got 2 speakers from Retail and Private Banking. We'll start off with Retail Banking, Frans van der Horst. But before I invite him onto the stage, we would like to show you a very short movie. Good afternoon. I will put this video in perspective in a few minutes. As said, my name is Frans van der Roest. Head in Retail Bank, I have a career of more than 20 years in banking, and I switched multiple times between retail roles and IT and operations. I've headed a retail bank in Fortis Netherlands quite some years ago. I've been Global COO of Fortis Retail for 8 years when they were still active in 8 countries. I've been CIO in ABN AMRO and I'm now very excited in this period of time to be heading the retail in ABN AMRO. I will talk with you about what we delivered so far. I will address a bit the short term revenue pressure that we are facing. I will show you how we deliver a differentiating customer experience by enhancing our core offering and accelerating a shift to digital, and I will explain how we can increase customer loyalty and further monetize our customer interface. About retail, it's already said by case. Next. It's already said by case, 5,000,000 customers on average 20% market share concentrated more in the urban areas than in the other sides of the country. The Dutch market is highly efficient, highly concentrated and very mature. We've shown a good profitability the past 10 years. We have more than 7,000,000 apps downloaded with our clients. We have more than 1,000,000,000 customer contacts per year. That's 20,000,000 per week. And we are a front runner in specific digital experiences like video banking. In other words, retail is a solid contributor to the results of ABN AMRO. But the revenues are highly depending on interest income. And we have some competition on the mortgage market more than we have seen the last few years. And the deposit side, of course, we lowered already the client interest rates to 3 bps. That's all that's amongst the average of all the 4 main banks in the Netherlands. And we have some ideas how we can mitigate this. And if we would like to mitigate this, then we use 3 levers: a client oriented offering the digital first and the client interface, the customer interface in a different way as of today. If I start talking about the client oriented offering, then you have to consider that nobody is coming into a branch on a Monday morning shouting around, I'm happily buying a mortgage today. No. That's not the need that they would like to fulfill. They would like to live in a nice house with their family. And that journey starts much earlier than the mortgage process. Christian already pointed that out in the customer journey with the total broader scope of it. And that's basically what we are also very much doing. We are heavily active also in the web identifying people that are looking for homes and already popping up and trying to make contact with them in a digital way, in the e commerce way. The majority of meetings with my advisers in the branch network are filled via the e commerce teams and not via by coincidental people that walk in. And if you want to be really relevant to your customers, we started up with a with a startup, a very good service, a full scan on the energy savings potential for homeowners. It's partially done by digitally exchanging information about your house, but accompanied by an on-site scan. And the homeowner, our clients, get a full report on all levers they could apply to make their homes more energy efficient, accompanied with investments and savings. And if they say yes, it should push the button and with a set of specialist partners, it will be executed and delivered. By that, we can improve the shift to sustainability, help our customers in a more to live in a more comfortable home and to save energy. And the financing option for the investments comes alongside. In the digital first, we are focusing heavily on video banking. Why? Because I would like to give my clients no reason whatsoever to come to a branch anymore. There is no need to do that because we can come to the kitchen table in his home by CDL Banking. We can do that outside of office hours and we can do that even in the weekends. And for my advisers, they are not required to be in the branch. They can do it also from home. And by that, we can come closer to our clients than ever before. I will give somewhat further insights on that one in a minute. Just one quick and the value of our customer interface. Our main apps are fully prepared to integrate 3rd party accounts. Why? Because we push the loyal usage of our apps and would like our customers once the PSD2 law is passed parliament in the Netherlands that they would aggregate their 3rd party accounts in our tool sets. That gives us the data and the loyalty. And yes, it's not about only the banking product and the customers, as I said, in the mortgage use case also. We have a number of concepts which we can plug in API based in journeys of retailers and web shops also to give consumers an option to pay at once or to take a consumer along with instant decision making in the journey of buying something in those web shops. These three levers, to a certain extent do make a shift in the customer behavior. And if you then take the example of mortgages, the next one please. It was already mentioned, a shift towards extremely long fixed interest rate periods. Yes, we will open up and originate to distribute formula early next year to again be relevant for our clients in that segment also. The first tranche will be 3 quarters of €1,000,000,000 so that we can engage with customers that rightly so as Kees said, take a good decision for long fixed interest rates because if you can afford them now, you're safeguarded for interest rate peaks in the future. Next to that, it's important that if you are, for instance, in the Western parts of the Netherlands where much more demand for houses is there than supply, then it's a difficult period if you have done a conditional bid, if you then have to wait if the mortgage is granted. That makes also in a seller's market, those type of bidders get a lower priority. We would like to turn it around. We are experimenting with that in the meantime to give a pre approved mortgage so that you can have that cumbersome period after having done that conditional bid is not necessary anymore. You can do your bidding on that house with a secured mortgage in your back pocket. What's not always a sweet spot of everybody in the Netherlands in the competition is self employed people, a large group which is growing rapidly. Traditionally, we have a lot of experience with income not from fixed labor contracts and out of entrepreneurial sources. We will focus more on that one and pay our product needs also in that direction. And the last specific group where we are focusing upon also from a view on inclusivity in society is the elderly people. They are basically asked forced to live longer in their houses, and we have a number of product concepts live that can help them to take some value out of that house, to adapt the house to their needs when they are older and or to pay for higher health care costs and those type of things. And we talked a lot this morning already on is this book growing or not. The result of the portfolio is the result of the production, the redemptions in the portfolio and people that are shopping around and all of a sudden leave you because they would like to take a mortgage elsewhere. And especially if you come from higher rate interest period some time ago, then that's a real risk. We have pretty good predictive models in place today where we can detect clients that show their behavior so that we can reach out early in the process to prevent them from leaving us. And that in total should help us to balance this book in the coming period. The 3rd largest revenue driver is consumer credits. And that one is an interesting one in a sense that we have the biggest web shop in the Netherlands. 1,500,000 people in the orientation tool is only in the total sales funnel leading to 15,000 credits paid out. And again, the example of Christian, a total customer journey, we identified many pain points in between where people dropped out of the process. By deliberately addressing all those pain points, we were able already to identify a lot of improvement potential, which is realized today. And next to that, the conclusion was we should rationalize, simplify, modernize and digitize the product portfolio even further and make use of somewhat more sophisticated IT systems, which we are in the process of doing so. By doing that, we are able to at least the last 2 months already see a first growth in this portfolio after some years of a gradual decline. And I'm convinced with that and also targeting a number of specific segments that this large revenue driver for us can start to grow again. And if you're relying heavily on interest income, and there was already a question in the Q and A session a few minutes ago, fee products. In general, the average fee income in retail is 10% of total. That's not much. I would like to see that increasing. And we took a look we have a very good solid private bank with a lot of knowledge on investment products. And together with private banking, we scanned the full product portfolio we have in place for retail customers, for customers that would like to join us digitally, that would start doing investments. And we concluded that we had something to do. And in Q3, Q4 and Q1 next year, we will deliver a totally new digitized product set, especially targeted to more dynamic younger clients in the retail area. And we are pretty much convinced that we can double the number of new clients in investments for 2019. If you compare it to what we can realize this year, and it's my personal commitment to double that again the year after. And by that, also we can build up again a strong feeder basis for future upstreaming to private banking. The insurance side is a likewise story. We have a joint venture with Nationale Nederlande. We run there a life insurer, a non life insurer and a broker. The level of penetration in the clients of retail is close to 11%. You will never reach 100, of course, but 11 is very much on the low end. Also with National and Nederlander together, we renewed the total product portfolio. Also that is the last one will be delivered Q1 next year. And the first one we put back in the market was the car insurance a few months ago, 2 months ago, and we immediately saw a premium inflow peak. And I'm convinced based upon better products, more risk based considerations into it, more sharing of the data of the bank with the insurer because that's really discriminating that we can improve significantly here. And by doing these two things, my target is to increase the level of 10% fees on total income to 15% in the coming years. If you then go back to the second lever, Digital First. Digital First, if you take this and Kees already mentioned it, this number, that's a combination of simple things like blocking your debit card, unblocking your debit card because you found it back, changing the car under your car insurance, but also buying an investment or an insurance product. In 65%, probably this year we will end up slightly higher. The 70% for next year is definitely not my endpoint. We were able to do this based upon also a lot on video banking. The push there when I started in retail, I was curious, is that only for the digital community? Is that only for the younger people? And I joined a number of my advisers in video banking meetings, and it struck me many times I saw on the screen people in their 70s 80s. And when you then ask them, are you living far away from the office? It even struck me more. The answer was no, 3 blocks away. Why do you take then this opportunity and not coming to the branch because it's much easier? I don't have to take the bus. I don't have to get out of my house. And the last question I always ask is, how did you master these tools like Skype and WebEx that we are using? Oh, that was an easy answer because that's their only way to connect with children and grandchildren, and they were learned and teach by them. So it's a useful tool, which is broadly used throughout generations. It was a very positive surprise for me. This increase in digital sales and services is accompanied by also increasing customer satisfaction. And the 2 combined led to the possibility to reduce the number of branches significantly. By far, we have the lowest number of branches in the Netherlands from our competitors. That's not because of a cost program. That's because there is no traffic. And it's not because there is no traffic because there are no interested clients. It's because clients do not have to come to the branch. And that's the reason why we can have this flexibility in our branch network that we don't have to take into account a minimum distance to a client and that we are free to maneuver. And this is one of the things that's very much probably a front runner position that we have in the Netherlands. And if you then take into account the little video with the dog, a full tokenization platform, which is up and running where we can connect every gadget, be it from Google, be it from Garmin, be it from whatever. We can connect easily to our payment infrastructure that gives joy, gives convenience and it builds up also loyalty. The main banking app, as said, open for aggregation in PSD 2, 2,300,000 users. It has the highest functionality levels in the Netherlands according to BankenpantNL, and that's accompanied by the biggest online digital financial household tool used in the Netherlands, 500,000 downloads for people that would like to keep track on their income and expenditures, make budgets and the likes. It gives us also a lot of data. That combined, and I'll come back to that in a minute, with the peer to peer Tiki app and the Sword fish, tweedle and other concepts, which we can put in place in journeys from web shops and retailers gives us a very strong real footprint in society, and that builds up also the loyalty that we are looking for. This strong mobile footprint is based on convenience, and that gives also a strong defense towards FinTechs, not only the geographic scope, the smallness of the Netherlands. And by building this loyal customer base, based on being relevant or making the lives of my customers a bit more easy, give them tools to have insight and oversight, help them to realize their goals, we strengthen the customer interface significantly. And if you then take a life in a customer's day of a day in a customer's life, then you see that we have multiple touch points. And we can, of course, reach out to him or her with suggestions. And we do that carefully now with some of our own product ideas that we could push forward to them. Of course, important, we keep track of preference of customers and on data privacy laws, which you can also imagine that we can simply see that the change from energy provider would save money for this client. We can do that. And over time, you could develop a fee model out of that also. A few words on TIKI. TIKI was developed for the typical Dutch situation. You have a lunch together, one pays and the other one would like to get repaid. And that's from a notion that it should not be limited to known memberships. The only thing you need is a WhatsApp account and a Dutch banking account. It went viral in June 2016. And in the meantime, we are close to 5,000,000 active users. And early in the process, probably 9 months ago, I think that commercial clients knocked on the door of Dafna with the request, can we incorporate Tiki as a payment process in our payment functionality? And why? Because Dutch customers were asking it. It is so easy to pay with sticky that they asked variety of parties to integrate that. So we did. There are different options with which you can integrate it in your payment facilities, and we created all of a sudden a fee model. The second question these commercial and corporate clients are now putting on our table is, can we make advertising possible in Turkey? Because it's very targeted audience, we can precisely give messages to people that we would like to do. We are considering it. It's not yet done, but that would be a second lever. And over time, we have a number of ideas for further value added services towards commercial clients by growing this community of techy users. The maximum by the way is 10,000,000 because there are no more than 10,000,000 WhatsApps accounts in the Netherlands. If I then come to a summary, retail is and will remain a solid contributor. We will address the Zwartsion revenue pressure. We have focused on customer experience by enhancing the core offering and accelerate our shift to digital. And this enhanced customer loyalty gives us the opportunity to monetize further our already strong customer interface. Thank you. With that, I would like to invite Peter. Good morning. Welcome, everyone. My name is Peter van Mielo. I'm responsible for the private banking activities. And I joined the bank 30 years ago, had several positions in the commercial area and 4 times I had a position in risk management, 2 times financial restructuring and recovery. And I love this bank, and I'm really committed to make a success of the private bank. And I'm very convinced, together with all my colleagues here on the front row, we will really build this future proof bank. My assignment started more than a year ago in March last year when Kees asked me to make a real profitable cost efficient price bank and concentrate on the strategic Northwest Europe focus. I built a new management team, and I replaced the country executives. Together with my team, we made a plan called the Building 1 Private Bank plan, a transformation plan which will take 3 years and in which we really change the organization and I will elaborate on this later on. We have a strategy in this private bank which can be summarized with 3 words harmonize, digitize and grow. We will grow the bank organically with profitable growth, but we will do it inorganically as well. And the first proof point is the acquisition we did last summer in Belgium. As a private bank, we focus on sustainability, and we invite our clients and support our clients to make the green choice in which we contribute to society as a bank as well. I'm committed to a very successful transformation of the private bank and improving financial results as well. I'm going to take you through this presentation in which we in which I would like to explain who we are as a private bank, what's the strategy and what it will bring us. What kind of private bank are we? We are definitely the market leader in the Netherlands, and we have strong positions in Germany, France, Belgium and Guernsey. We serve almost 100,000 clients. And after the integration of our Belgium acquisition, we have over €200,000,000,000 assets under management. We are heavily investing in digital because we had rather old fashioned operations in Germany and France. We did a great job together with the teams of Christian. We also developed advanced client portals, which are up and running now in Germany and France. And in Belgium and Guernsey, we will implement as well. We have a so called open architecture, so the asset managers are not on our own payroll. We select the best asset managers around the globe. The number of sustainable funds is increasing. And in our discretionary portfolio mandates as well as in our advisory mandates, we support the clients to make the green choice. As a private bank, we have a very low capital consumption. And of course, the private bank is a very important source of the funding of the bank with €67,000,000,000 assets under management. Assets under management, of course, liquidity, deposits. Despite our elevated digital investments, our return on equity is currently 23% year to date and it's strong and it will improve. So I think we can really say we are a leading cross border private bank. The market in private banking is rapidly changing. The digital offerings are getting more important and the demand of our clients are changing. We have quite some backlog outside the Netherlands, which we are developing in the right way. The transformation we started last year in the new team is really a different setup compared to the previous periods. In the private bank, we actually had 2 organizations, a separate private banking team for the Dutch organization and the so called private banking international team for the other countries. So we moved together with the 2 headquarters, made one organization. And instead of a more country led approach, we currently have functional steering. So in the PBMT in Amsterdam, we are steering on sales, products and solutions, operations and process and control together with the country executives and their teams. So all decisions we take in Amsterdam are decisions for the entire private bank, and this is the way we can harmonize the private bank. And it works well, and the collaboration with the countries is really great. The regulatory impact today is very high. I think we spent a lot of effort on MiFID II and the remediation of K by C. We started early, but it was hard working in the last couple of months. Now we have divested some countries. We can fully concentrate on our current footprint in Western Northwest Europe. And with the current footprint, I think we have a scalable bank. The transformation is well on track, and the costincome ratio is improving. I expect we have a costincome ratio below 70% in 2021. And I think we can finalize our current transformation in 2021. The acquisition we made last summer in Belgium with SocGen underpins our growth ambition. We expect to close this transaction in the Q1 2019. And together with this acquisition, we have an assets under management portfolio in Belgium of €12,000,000,000 So we doubled the portfolio. The footprint of Societe is comparable to the current organization in Belgium. It's for 90% the same, so we can realize a lot of synergies. Also the client portfolio is similar, so it's a really a very nice combination we can establish. We will start the closing or the we will start the migration to the platform next year. We think we can manage this before the end of next year. After having this migration, we will offer our 1 PB product menu card to the Societe clients as well as well as the advanced client portals will be available for those clients. The acquisition is a perfect example of our growth strategy in North West Europe. We focus on organic growth, especially, but we are open for inorganic growth. Kees mentioned yesterday and tomorrow already the 3 pillar approach. Sustainability, very important for our bank. This started already in 2,009 in the private bank. We focus very much on sustainable investments for our clients. And in the period 2,009, 2017, we built a portfolio of €8,000,000,000 assets under management for our clients. Last year, we reviewed and we set a new ambition level, And the ambition level was to double the assets under management in 3 years to a level of €16,000,000,000 And what happened last year that due to extra focus and a lot of education of the bankers, we were able to move forward with €5,000,000,000 So currently, we already have a portfolio of €13,000,000,000 so quite an achievement. We invested a lot of time in educating the bankers. Currently, already 650 bankers are certified with a so called United Nations PRI certificate. And last week, we signed a partnership with the University of Oxford. Together with Oxford University, we design an international education program for our bankers. And not only that, we developed a research program for measuring impact as well. We are also funding chairs in the Netherlands in 2 universities. In the University of Utrecht, we have a Chair for Social Entrepreneurship and at the Erasmus University in Rotterdam, we have a chair for social enterprise. So sustainable investments are very relevant for our clients. And in this way, as a bank, we contribute to society. As a private bank, we heavily invest in the customer experience. In the Netherlands, we are a frontrunner in digital solutions. As Frans already told a few minutes ago, we are working close together and the private bank is lifting up all the experiments and all the new developments of the retail bank. We work close together and of course the retail bank is also a very important feeder for the private bank. Outside the Netherlands, we were lagging behind. There is a lower adaption rate for digital, so it's hard working together with the bankers to convince clients to make use of the digital solutions. In the private bank, every client has a banker. And as we do in retail, we try to convince the other attractive solution having video banking. And it's going slowly, but what we discover is that NPS for video banking is even higher. And currently there's getting more demand because not every conversation is necessary to have it face to face. And as France said, opening hours we are changing as well. So more and more clients are having video conversations in the evening. In the private bank, we have a segmentation strategy on wealth bands, source of wealth and stage of life. We have 3 focus segments: Private Wealth Management for the ultra net high net worth individuals we have a focus on entrepreneurs and entrees and on life cycle. We also have an academy for the children of our private banking clients, the so called Next Academy. And in the Next Academy, we have trainings available, online trainings for children to get used to managing your wealth and doing good. We have also classes, and we also offer solutions in an international perspective and bring children together to educate them on having wealth. We have a very high client satisfaction, and we are working hard on this to keep it at this high level because due to the high client satisfaction, we are able to cross sell and to bring in new clients. We work hard on the culture in the private bank to improve the effectiveness of staff, to support the bankers, to make our clients more digital savvy so that they make the choice for the digital solutions and video banking. The strategy of the private bank has to do with harmonization and digitization. And in the Netherlands, we work close together with the retail bank and we are on the same platform. Outside the Netherlands, we are moving to 1 and the same core banking platform. And in the IT environment, the IT platform has almost been finalized. In the Q1 next year, Belgium will be the 1st country, which will be migrated to the new platform. Later that year, Societe will follow and afterwards the other countries. And this will be very cost efficient for the private bank because having 1 and the same platform makes it very easygoing in connecting our digital portals to this platform. And having upgrades going forward, it's very easy and much more cost efficient. The last 1.5 years, a lot of operational processes have been digitized. Especially in Germany and France, we were able to build those portals, client portals. And in the operational processes, we took out about 70% of the manual processes. So this leads finally to a reduction of staff of 22%. And in the meantime, we took already out 50%. Regarding the product rationalization, we are currently harmonizing the product portfolio, and it will take till about 2020 before this process has been done, but we are harmonizing. And finally we'll have the same product menu card in all countries. All countries make use currently of our ABN AMRO Investment Solutions Company in Paris where we run our discretionary portfolio funds. Specials, we have organized in separate countries. So for example, private equity is concentrated now in Germany, art finance and the family office proposition is in France, and philanthropy is in the Netherlands. And by doing this, we save a lot of cost, not having all those small teams in all countries but make use of the capabilities of the countries of ISAVA. We are successful in building a future proof bank via harmonization and digitization. We apply a so called safe to invest strategy. And as I already told you, the plan will take place and we almost realized half of it, in total 22% of the private bank population. The plan is well on track, but there are still a lot to do. The total cost savings will be around €100,000,000 Despite all the investments we have done so far, we could reduce the cost income ratio of over 80% till 73% for the last four quarters. We have been for a long time in the 80s with a costincome ratio with bringing it down to a level of below 70% in the next few years. This will take some time, but in 2021, the level will be below 70%. Till that time, we keep the investment level at a high level because we really want to improve our digital solution in the countries, and we really want to run and optimize our platforms in the private bank. I'm very proud to be well on track with the transformation because this process will reduce not only the costs, but brings in better solutions and we become a more attractive private bank for our clients. The recent past of the private bank has been dominated with divestments. Last year, we divested Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong and recently Luxembourg. Due to the transformation plan we are currently running, we have a lot of reorganizations, which, of course, hampers the commercial activities. We work hard on the regulatory requirements regarding MiFID II, and we were an early starter regarding remediation plans for KYC. And currently, we are doing quite well because we already finalized the remediation plan in the Netherlands. Recently, we realized this in currency. And before the end of the year, the remediation will be finalized for Germany and Belgium. And in the second half next year, France will be done as well. So from that time, we can concentrate fully on commercial activities. So currently, we are freeing up a lot of capacity for cross sell, deep sell and acquisition of new clients. Digitization and increased demand of video banking will free up a lot of capacity as well, capacity which can be spent on acquisition and cross and deep sell. The ambition of the private bank is to migrate more liquidity into securities where we have a preference for DPM because it's easygoing banking, very cost efficient, and on the other hand, we have very nice cash flows on a quarterly basis. Despite the yearly margin erosion we see, which is calculated in all of our budgets, we expect a continued focus on further profitable growth. Allow me to summarize. The strategy of the private bank has to do with harmonize, digitize and grow. We have a transformation plan, which is very well on track. For 50%, it has been realized. And with all the savings we are currently making, we can invest in digital and, on the other hand, reduce our costincome ratio. So I'm very committed, together with my team, to finalize this transformation plan. And for sure, I'm convinced we can grow the Praise the bank. Thank you very much for your attention. And Frans and I are open now for questions. Thank you very much. Thank you, Peter. We have a quick look. Can we start over here with Jose? Thank you. Thank you for the presentations. Left wondering about the future in terms of fees. This is more a private banking related question. Once digitalization makes more inroads and the clients are able to jump from one platform to another in just a couple of clicks with PSD2 and everything that's going to be offered to them. How are you planning on retaining your clients? Because equity products, whatever, is going to be offered by pretty much everybody. What's the strategy to retain clients going forward? So referring to the fees in the private bank. Thinking about fees, I'm thinking about help with taxes. I mean, what is the strategy to retain a client other than just the product offering in terms of investments? What we see is that we are still a very attractive private bank with a high NPS, Net Promoter Score. What we see is that we now we can free up capacity for the commercial work. We see that we are really able to transfer liquidity into securities. And what we see is that transferring execution only into DPM, that gives more cash flows because you have the steady cash flows on a quarterly basis. Is that an answer to your question? I guess it's a partial answer to the question. I'm thinking, isn't this something that your competition can offer also? I mean, what's the what differentiates ABM from ING in this new strategy? What we see, especially in the Netherlands, Germany and France, because of the size, we have quite good specialists, very good specialists, I must say. So especially in the Netherlands, what you see because of the size, we can afford ourselves to have very dedicated teams for all the different specialties in Private Banking, for example, estate planning, financial planning, worldwide planning, philanthropy whatsoever. Because of all those specialists, we are a very attractive bank. And by mobilizing clients from the other countries to this specific teams in the Netherlands and, for example, for private equity in Germany, we are able to build solutions for clients that not everyone can provide. And maybe just one more very specific question. What do you see margins in terms of AUM going over the next few years? Is that part of your cost to income target? Are you considering do you have in mind where margins could go in the future? Margins are quite stable. But in our projection, we have some decline. But currently, they are still stable. And we had quite a discussion last year regarding the green offerings because boosting sustainable funds. We had a discussion on what should be the price level. We didn't give any discount. And what we see, it's still attractive. And for 80% of the clients, it's their first choice. So all new clients take for 80% the green portfolios. And having existing clients in new DPM mandates, they have the green choice as well, which is at the same pricing level as the grape portfolios. Okay. Thanks. Sorry, we'll go over here. You see are there questions in the middle, by the way, as well? Go ahead, Marcel. Thank you for taking my questions. First of all, Frans, on the Retail business. You said you wanted to grow the fees from 10% to 15% of total revenues. Can you just give us the split of the fees right now? How much of the fees are driven by current account fees? And how much room do you see to increase these current account fees given that one of the highest in Europe? That was my first question. The second is on for Peter. On the I understand that the total private bank is an ROE of 23%. But can you give us a little bit more color on the divisional ROEs per region? Which region do you like scale and do you can you increase profitability on those regions? Thank you. On the first question, the payment fees or the payment related fees are, to a certain extent, limited based upon the fact that the efficiency in the marketplace. But we have, over time been able to increase them also because we offer more for that, the digital offering, the availability, the tool set, security, etcetera. So our last price increase was this summer. We constantly look what is possible and what should be logical from also a perspective of the investments that we do in capabilities, availability and those type of things. If you then position them next to the fee incomes out of investments and insurance, then the total of the last 2 is bigger than the first. Okay. Thank you. Peter, the first Regarding the return on equity, ambition level to have at least 10% in each country. Currently, in the Netherlands, of course, we have a much higher return on equity, but we are improving quite rapidly now because taking out so many FTEs outside the Netherlands, you see the costincome ratio is rapidly improving. So I think in 2 years from now, we are able to have this hurdle of 10% plus in all countries. This is Adrian Chigi from RBC. Two questions on Retail Banking, please. The a clarification on the fee income. Is the increase from 10% to 15% included in the group fee income guidance for the plan? And the second one is on the TIKI. Are you seeing yourself as the natural owner of TQ? You've seen other countries where the payment platforms have been sort of divested. Okay. Shall we keep your first question for Clifford, who's going to talk about group fees? Okay. That's good for me. Yes. Unless you insist, Bob. Now your question around Tiki, that's a very good question. It started in June 2016 when 2 developers wanted to make some codes to solve this problem. And they were allowed to do that in 3, 4 weeks, and they basically had the MVP ready. And then they asked for a few €100,000 of web marketing budget to see if they could push a certain set of users. And that was the start of the growth journey that we have seen. It gives us a lot of positive energy because it also gives us a lot of experience in working like a fintech internally and understanding what is important of for scaling those type of things. So it is also a very motivational element in the whole IT and retail space that this could be created together, and that is also now spread out to the commercial banking colleagues, etcetera. So there is, in essence, no logic that I should own it. But as we invented it, we still like to treasure it and see if we can make this platform even more relevant in the Dutch society. And as it has a so huge NPS and it's so driven by people that are using it so everyday based that I think that we are not yet ready with finding further options for further, yes, exploration, what could be the potential of TIKI. And that's also the discussions that we have at the moment. How can we speed up further value added service development and the likes. And so yes, I know there is some interest in Tiki as a concept. But for this moment, we are very happy in exploring first ourselves whatever is still possible with this very nice creation. Thank you. We have some questions. 1 over there, Jean Pierre, and then the next one is over there. Yes. Jean Pierre from KBW. I was wondering, you haven't mentioned MoneyYou and it came out at the IPO as a potential development internationally as a vector for collecting deposits. And I was wondering, do you have plans to expand in other countries? Or is it under wrap for the moment? Good morning. It was also on the on one of the slides of Christian. It's one of our endeavors where we created a full digital cloud enabled SaaS solution connected banking platform. And then also there, we try now to experience with what it will take to scale that because we are not the only one in that space. There are more of these type of initiatives. So at the moment, we are taking a closer look at what can that bring. Can we also use part of this today's technology to replace elements in the Monarch Bank, can we have opportunities to grow the number of users in the MoneyYou payments area significantly. So that's under discussion at this moment. Okay. Next sorry. Yes, sorry, Ninca, over there. And then we'll go so hands over here. Thank you. Mathias Zwiedt from Kempen and Co. Two questions. The first is on Retail Banking. If I look at the mortgage margins, they look quite healthy from an international perspective, also from an ROE and risk reward view. How do you how sustainable are they considering that competition is quite heavy nowadays and there are some developments with new entrants like pension funds becoming more aggressive, etcetera? So that's the first question. Secondly is on Private Banking. I was surprised to see NII growing and margins growing like NIM margins in the private bank. So what's exactly happening there? And how do you think about interest margins going forward in the private bank? Can you start? Yes, I can start, of course. NNA, growing NNA has to do with net new inflows, of course. I think having those attractive sustainable funds, I think it's attractive for clients to switch to the ABN AMRO brand, Bateman brand of NERFLEZE brand. I think by moving from execution only to DPM and advisory mandates, I think we will create more revenues. Okay. And the question on your NII has been growing. That is also related to that. As well as the deposit margins? Deposit margins. Deposit margins are, of course, very low at this moment. We pay 3 basis points on the deposits in general. And when we have content with clients, we in the PWM segment, we even charge on deposits. So currently, we have negative margins for the larger deposits in certain segments. And Clifford will address that as well at a later point. Yes? Ben? Yes. Benjamin Goy from Deutsche Bank. Two questions, please. The first one on retail banking. And you mentioned increasing digitalization in the country, but also you're moving to an originator to distribute offering as well. So just wondering how you expect this to affect your relationship and also competition with mortgage brokers in the smaller bolt on. Just wondering, were you in the past outbid? Or smaller bolt on. Just wondering, were you in the past outbid? Or do we have more files now on the table given regulatory, let's say, cost pressures might increase there the tendency for you to buy up smaller private banks? Thank you. Shall I start on the mortgages part? And then I probably try not to forget the question that just was left out. In the mortgage market, we basically have 3 different formulas: a small one which has the label MoneyYou, which is execution only. People do it themselves. FLORIOUS, which is fully oriented on intermediary sales. That's a standardized straightforward highly predictable highly reliable process. And we have ABN AMRO. And ABN AMRO label is used in 2 ways. It's direct sales, my branch network, my people, my advisers, whatever. And it's used by intermediaries. All mortgage requests, which have a component of more discussing the matter or explaining or not a straightforward income are done also by intermediaries in the ABN AMRO label. So my change in digitization is not really changing the relationship we have with brokers. We, for tens of years, worked with the ABN AMRO label in a joint effort. Partially, it's used by brokers and we use it in our direct channels also. And they really do understand. If this is a straightforward client, then it goes into the Floria Street. If there has to be something to be discussed, then it goes in the ABN AMRO Street. So there we have a clear distinction and the changes we apply to the direct sales are not really hampering any of the relationship with brokers. And the question that was still there on the margin, yes, as also Kees said, we are not in the business for pure size alone. We would like to stick to the hurdles. We have a weekly monitoring on prices. Whenever it's necessary, we can change them every day in the week if necessary. But we would like to safeguard very stable margins. And at this moment, we still see stable margins above the hurdle production. And yes, that leads to a slightly, yes, declining book at this moment. But I prefer to focus on the return, especially also because of the increase in the house prices we have seen recently. So a little bit cautious there is safeguarded safeguarding the margins and the hurdle. Regarding the M and A question. As a private bank, we focus on organic profitable growth. And of course, the size of the private bank with €200,000,000,000 plus assets under management is fine to have good returns. So it's not necessary to grow it inorganically. We are very glad with the acquisition we could make in Belgium because we had a level below €10,000,000,000 And above €10,000,000,000 you make much, much better results. Going forward, of course, after having finalized the platforms, we will certainly grow the private bank inorganically. And currently, we are investigating possibilities, for example, in Germany and France. Jason Kalambusz, EBC. The first question is in how do you see I mean, we're talking yesterday on the private clients. You have 110 basis points that you charge. You have your bit your boiler room in France, 25 basis points that go to go there. Do you see these 2 staying relatively stable over the next years? And coming back a bit to the M and A, if you have you say that 50%, I think you are pretty much done on the implementation transformation. You said at end of 2019, you're ready to focus on the commercial side. I mean, should we expect if we exclude the M and A, do you see some stronger growth coming? Or actually, you rely quite a lot and you're more you think that a lot more will come from the M and A integration side that will come? Because we started the KYC remediation program early and have almost finalized it, we free up a lot of capacity going forward in all countries except France. So France isn't finalized yet. It will be finalized in the second half of this year. But in all other countries, we free up at least 2 days a week for all bankers. So acquisition is going very well at this moment. So we are really able to grow organically and increase number of clients and transfer liquidity into securities. Regarding the margins, I expect the margins will go down going forward, let's say, with 1% or 2% year on year, but that's calculated in the budget. So taking out costs and having this slow margin decline, that's something we predicted and we can handle and in the meantime have the returns we are looking for. Okay. We'll go for one more before lunch. Can we have Bruce over there? Sorry. Thank you. Yes. Could I just ask on Tiki? So this at the moment is really kind of individual to individual. But over time, it sounds like you're saying it's individual to merchant as well. So I mean, how much of the business is disintermediating the existing payments network, the card network or ideal? And is that a realistic possibility that you then sort of control it, just to understand? And then secondly, just on Private Banking. You've given us quite a lot of information on margins, which is super helpful. When people move from cash to investments, what's the step up? Is it like from 0 to 60 bps? Is that the kind of fee step up you'd be talking about? And in terms of your discretionary mandate penetration, where are we today? And where do you anticipate you might get to on a 3, 4 year view? On the first question, Tiki is using, at this moment, ideal to fulfill its payments. That can change also with PSDT. 2 changes we can also have another level of connectivity. It's not so much competing with other ways to pay for commercial clients. It's at this moment an adding element because and you probably won't use it for very big ticket sizes because it's, in essence, a very easy going payment, but you probably would not try to collect €5,000 or that type of money with this. I mean that's the that's not fitting there. But the university, for instance, in Groningen, I was the first one who knocked on our doors. They had some students that they get some money from and it was difficult because mails were not read, calls were not answered, letters were not opened. And then all of a sudden, the students said, yes, bloody hell, send me a ticky, then I will pay. And that's the reason that's the first commercial experience that we had with somebody who said, okay, and it has now great value for me because calling and writing letters and those type of things are much more expensive than sending on WhatsApp. And the level of the ratio of payment on these WhatsApp was much higher than any other means that they used. And regarding your question, moving liquidity into securities, of course, that's very attractive because interest levels came very came down very much. Having the fee income on securities, DPM or advisory mandates, it's much more healthy to have it in the security portfolio, and it's more sticky as well. Okay. Thanks very much. That concludes the Q and A for now. We'll have a break for lunch. If you could be back by 1:30 London time, that's also for the people on the webcast, that would be great. Those on the webcast, no need to disconnect. We'll just reconvene at 1:30 U. K. Time. Thank you. Thanks very much, and thanks for helping us in our time management by being here. For those in the room, we've just asked to turn off the heat a little bit. I'm not sure whether that has to do with the presentations which are still coming, but there were some people a little bit cold. The next block is Commercial Banking and Corporate Banking. And I would like to invite Rutger, the Head of Corporate and Institutional Banking, to kick off, please. Thanks. Thank you, please, and a very good afternoon to you all. My name is Rutger van Nauhuis, and I joined ABN AMRO way back in 1989. I started in Corporate Banking Natural Resources, and then I moved over to Equity Capital Markets, M and A Advisory and Client Coverage. And since the beginning of 2017, in charge of Corporate and Institutional Banking. I'd like to take you through 3 points today. First of all, I'm going to explain what a great franchise CIB is with great people and great clients. 2nd, I'd like to run you through the Q2 announcement, but more important, update you on the progress I'm making and last but not least, explain how we are dealing with Basel IV. But before I start, I'd like to leave 3 commitments with you. First of all, I'm committed to further develop sustainable relationships with multiproduct clients in attractive sectors. My second commitment is that I like to achieve the announced measures in Q2. 1st of all, reduce capital by €5,000,000,000 secondly, to take out €80,000,000 in cost and thirdly, to adhere to a strict capital allocation and transform the CIB business model. Last but not least, I'm very committed and keen to deliver on the targets in Basel III but also to prepare CIB for Basel IV readiness. Now let's go to CIB as it stands today. CIB services over 3,000 clients with 2,500 people in 3 time zones, and our service is highly valued by our clients. Now let me start in the Netherlands. Our natural home position, a great franchise, top 2, strong client feedback but also being awarded the best Dutch bank in 2018 by Euromoney. And last but not least, our Dutch wholesale clients have asked us to take a presence in the surrounding countries. Now the global sectors. It is really in the DNA of the Dutch people to be a trading nation and a maritime nation. And therefore, it's very logical that we are present in TCF, Natural Resources and in Shipping, global transportation and logistics. And our positions globally are recognized and awarded. Like, for example, last year when we won the award of Best Global Trade Finance Bank by Euromoney. On the product side, we clustered all the lending products into structured finance, and we created 1 distribution hub, Global Markets, serving FX, rates, Equity Capital Markets and Debt Capital Markets. In Markets, we achieved the number one brokerage position, home, being the number one external broker. And in Private Equity, great results. Last but not least, Abraham Raw Clearing Bank, top 3 position in the world, serving clients over 150 exchanges. So if I summarize, CIB has a strong franchise and is highly recognized by our clients. Now let's talk about 3 of these clients in the Netherlands, in Germany, but also a global sector client. Sustainable relationships are the key, and we start those with long term lending commitments, but we leverage those commitments with capital light cross sell, generating fee income. If I start with the Dutch client and in the Dutch portfolio, 85% of the portfolio is multiproduct. And this is a typical mid market case in the Netherlands where we have a long term lending relationship, and this specific client was acquired by a private equity investor. Now we were able to act on the buy side, generating nice M and A fees. But also important, we cross sell other products like the asset based products from Daphne in commercial banking. So the return we make on these typical clients is well above the 10%. Now let's move to Germany. And I know some of you are still skeptical about our European expansion, But I'm going to tell with this client example that you can leave your skepticism. Why? Because we have a lean and mean team in Germany and we are leveraging on the private banking platform that Peter has in Germany. Now this is an example of a power and utility company that is also banked by German banks and by the international bulge bracket firms. And we were able to start a lending position over there, but we also got a senior syndicate position on the 1st green bond issued by this client. And I really like that because we can link that to our sustainability pillar. Return on equity, 17%. Last but not least, a typical example of a multiproduct TCF clients. Because in the global sectors, the percentage of multiproduct clients is 50%, and it is my ambition to increase that percentage over 60%. Now this is a typically big client active in the three regions of the world. It starts with a short term revolving credit facility in order to get the trade income of this client. But interestingly enough, we also for this client run an advisory mandate in the sense that we've been able to sell a part of their business in Asia Pacific to a Chinese investor. Return on equity, 14%. To sum up, we make decent returns because of the multiproduct client aspect in all sectors and geographies. Now you already know this slide, and I will address the key issues we are facing. And let me take you through the slides because most of the sectors and the products through the cycle are above the 10% return on equity. But actually, trade and commodity finance in global markets are not. And we will be moving TCF inside this corner above the 10% return on equity. And I'm going to explain later how we're going to do that and how it's working already. Global markets, that's costly to run. Basically, if we look at the platform in the past, it was way too big for the client flow. And that's a problem for every midsized bank. But there is a clear room for improvement to bring global markets to single digit returns. Private Equity, doing very nicely. This morning, we issued a press release where we opened up the private equity funds in the Netherlands for outside investors. And there are 4 investors led by Alpe West who take control of 53% over a relative small part of the portfolio. But the team is really rock solid, and that's the reason why we decided to also invest back with a minority interest. And that's a good example of locking in profits in this cycle. Last but not least, let me take out one example of GTL because shipping today is still generating double digit returns despite the markets. However, we are already preempting the Basel IV situation because asset based financing is being hit quite severely in the Basel IV environment. And that's exactly the reason why we are taking out capital in the global sectors and recycle part of it into more investment grade or near investment grade clients where we cross sell in other products. To summarize, CIB has a good business through the cycle, but 2 businesses need restructuring measures. Now Kees talked about this slide already in the half year results. Now let me update you on the progress that we are making. Because on the reduction of RWAs, we are clearly on track. Since Q1, we already took out €1,500,000,000 in RWAs, And we are shifting the portfolio and we've been analyzing all the client portfolios and zoomed into the less attractive clients. And there we started discussions, which are sometimes difficult with clients. On the cost side, we completed the early announced reorganization in Global Markets. We've been closing geographies and provisions have been taken and also we've been calculated the impact on the people side. That has been identified. Now last but not least, looking at the transformation of the business model. We decided to centralize coverage, put all lending products into 1 hub, create one center of excellence in distribution global markets and very important, we decided to create 1 central portfolio management team within structured finance. And we looked at best practices of other banks. And I will talk about that a bit later on in my presentation. Now very important is the transformation of the sectors. And let me talk about sustainability and that pillar. Because if you look at the energy portfolio, the CIB team is really committed to drive and engage with our clients on this energy transition. And to give you one example, today the percentage in the portfolio of renewable energy clients is standing at 7%. And we will triple that percentage in the portfolio over 20% 2 years from now. And Tanja, you already elaborated on some of the polluting client segments. We engage with our clients and we clearly discuss with them that we are no more financing the heavy polluting F and G labeled ships. More important, as an important shipping bank, we started the initiative a while ago to really focus on environmentally friendly scrapping of older ships. To sum up, I'm on track with my plans, and I'm pushing the right buttons, and I expect to deliver our targets in 2020 2021. I promise you to take you through 2 examples. And first of all, I'd like to address the trade and commodity situation. TCF uses a lot of capital, over €9,000,000,000 RWS, but they failed to create economies of scale. And there is still a long list of clients that are not accretive, and we are attacking those. So we identified those clients, and we started the tough discussions with those clients. In TCF, we already reduced 1.3000000000 RWAs if you compare it to Q1 of this year. On the diamonds portfolio that Tanja talked about, we are derisking that portfolio also in Dubai, and let me use that as an example, with 98% of our existing clients, we agreed on repayment schedules. And we introduced a 0 loss mentality in the sense that we screened the entire portfolio and really are pruning out the most risky clients, but there's still a road ahead. Now on the cost side. We have reduced 20 people. We also centralized the noncommercial departments. And let me give you one example because there is 1 mid office desk in Rotterdam and one in Amsterdam. That didn't make any sense, so we decided to merge that and create cost synergies. But we are also looking at processes within TCF and are implementing a lean analysis, making processes more efficient, taking out costs. And last but not least, the closing of the office of Dubai is done and also the wrap office in Moscow is closed. On the transformation of the business model, we moved to less paper and less hassle for our clients, but we also invest in blockchain. And like Christian already mentioned in his slides, the Comgo example, which actually is a great example of a blockchain which is completely digitized. It's safer for our clients. It's way more user friendly and it is really a classical example of improving your customer experience. So to summarize, I've got one of my best people on this case. It's hard work, but we are and we will keep on delivering and resolve this large chunk of CIB's underperformance. Now let's move to markets. Global Markets provides an important service to CIB's multiproduct clients, but not only to CIB clients because we also serve private banking clients and we serve commercial banking clients and retail clients, but also ALM Treasury. But the financial challenge remains: high cost, low returns due to a limited client flow and too much RWAs, so clear room to improve. Now on the reduction of capital because the team already had done an impressive job, reducing from over EUR 14,000,000,000 in 20.13 to EUR 7,000,000,000 in 2017. And we pushed that further down, already €800,000,000 out since the beginning of this year and €700,000,000 to go. By trimming our product offering and, for example, only be a market maker in Dutch government bonds. Now on the cost side, we reduced 40 people and completed the reorganization. So I expect we're going to grab the fruit as of the beginning of 2019. We stopped desks in Brazil, in Norway, but also in the Far East. And on behalf of the whole bank, I'm happy that we are going to make an end and complete the SME derivative file expected in Q1 of 2019, and that has been a big drag on the costs. On the transformation side, we need to increase the flow on the platform. So we are really pushing the people hard to increase the share of the wallet with our clients. But we also use advanced analytics in the trading environment. And as Christian also mentioned and Dafna will show, we started this digital offering of francs. It's a multi currency platform, but also offering products, FX products for our commercial banking clients. To sum up, Global Markets is making great progress and is on track to contribute to CIB's return on equity above the 10%, although I don't expect them to make double digit returns, but stay in positive single digit returns. This is an important slide because I'm going to talk about changing the business model. Because in the past, we too often entered into client lending relationship with a lot of promises of more business down the road, but actually too little coming out of this. And we will do and are doing this already in a different way. 3 initiatives: focus on multi products, adhering to a strict capital discipline and increasing capital velocity. And let me take you through those pillars. Multiproduct cross selling. As said, my ambition, especially also looking at the global sector, is to increase multiproduct and cross sell above the 60%. Not only lending, but being very disciplined on cross sell of at least 2 products, but also scaling back on the base of 4 affected products because there are still quite a lot of uncommitted lines, which we are taking out as we speak, reducing capital and prepare ourselves for the Basel IV environment already. Strict capital discipline. We have introduced a central portfolio management department within structured finance where we control all CIB's loan book. And that is really important because that allows us to steer our capital towards those sectors and those products and those clients where we can make the best return on capital. And 3 times a week, there is a capital allocation committee where we look at each and every client situation. There is even a tool being developed where we already look at the impact on Basel IV and ask relationship bankers to address any shortcomings in that field. Capital velocity. I like to dramatically increase capital rotation by more investor centric origination approach. And what do I mean with that? If a relationship banker comes up with a loan proposal, the first question is how can we offload this debt? Who is the ultimate investor? Is that a bank or is that an insurance company or is that a pension fund? And that is a way to originate to distribute. But we're also investing in ways to ensure part of the portfolio. And even in central portfolio management, move out parts of the portfolio. And if you realize that today, in between 3% to 5 percent of the portfolio is being risk distributed, that's a small percentage. And I like to see a big increase of that percentage. We also need to keep in our minds that over 90% of the loan book of CIB will churn before 2022. To sum up, we will increase income over RWAs by generating more fee income with less capital, and we will prepare ourselves for Basel IV. Now let's look at the impact of how we are preparing ourselves for Basel IV. But let me start with this graph. This graph shows you the return on equity of CIB in the last couple of years. You saw quite a dramatic improvement in the year to date financials, up to 9%, almost 9.5% return on equity. Now we need to normalize that for the extraordinary private equity income that we saw in the last year. But we also need to normalize that for other numbers. But I already took you through the way how we're going to increase the returns in CIB to 10% -plus. Now how are we coping with Basel IV? Because Basel IV is further driving our need to be more capital efficient. And we're doing a few things. First of all, we are timely implementing our new capital light strategy in the basically to optimize our returns under Basel III and prepare ourselves for Basel IV. As said, we're steering capital to those clients, those products, those sectors which show the best returns. By also generating higher capital velocity through risk distribution in the primary markets like DCM, like underwrites, but also in secondary markets, looking at securitizations like insurance or sell downs of part of the portfolio, we are increasing return on the CIB portfolio. And important to acknowledge is the fact that before 2022, the entire CIB portfolio will be churned. To summarize, in 2021, CIB is well positioned for the introduction of Basel IV. Now I come to my last slide. And tonight, Friday evening, when you drive home, I like you to remember 3 commitments that I give to you. First of all, I'm passionate to further develop sustainable relationship with multiproduct clients and move the capital into attractive sectors. I am fully committed to reduce the capital, reduce RWAs, take out costs and adhere to a strict discipline in capital allocation. And therefore, my third point is we will I will deliver on above 10% ROE target by 2021 under Basel IV and we'll be ready for Basel IV. Thank you very much. And Daphne, may I now invite you on stage for the Commercial Banking story. Thank you. Hello, everyone. Good afternoon. My name is Daphne de Clas, and I'm responsible for Commercial Banking. And I'm going to tell you about sustainability as a business opportunity. I'm already with the bank for over 20 years in different type of jobs. I've been heading the global structured finance unit. Actually, I set it up. I've been heading FR and R, Financial Restructuring and Recovery, during the difficult times. I've been in Romania for 3 years heading the Commercial Bank. And I'm now in K's team responsible for Commercial Banking. Banking. Commercial Banking is a leading bank in the Dutch market. We're guided by client intimacy where it matters and efficiency everywhere else and I'll come back to that. We deliver clear profitable growth as we already promised you in 2015. We consider sustainability as a real growth opportunity and I'll demonstrate that to you. And we make good progress in improving our costs and CI ratio. Now first, let's take a closer look at Commercial Banking as a whole. We are leading in the Dutch market in the SME segment. And as I already said, our strategy is based on client intimacy where it matters and efficiency everywhere else. And if I talk about client intimacy, I talk about expertise and bringing value adds to your clients. If I talk about efficiency, I very much talk about digital, hassle free and convenience. I don't have to tell you in detail all the challenges that we have. First of all, Kees already elaborated on that. But furthermore, I believe you are very well aware. Of course, there are clients' needs that are changing. There are technological trends. And of course, the government regulations are also quite intense. And we have a stable base of around 300 and 65,000 clients, and that represents almost 25% of the Dutch enterprises. And these are corporates in all kind of sectors of the economy. And the turnover is up to EUR 250,000,000. And we offer them a broad range of services and products. We have asset based finance units, and that has a presence also in the UK, Germany and France. And the rest of our offering is mostly tailored to the Netherlands. Now how do we achieve this client intimacy? It's very much based on our sector approach. And with this sector approach, we can have a real good strategic dialogue with our clients. And it makes this very strong and personal contact. Of course, we also have tailored product offerings. And I believe that we stand out from competition because we have integrated this sector approach really across the board in the bank. Now of course, we also offer our clients and Christian and Frans already told you about it, very innovative solutions. And let me explain you a little bit about an offering that we created, which is called New10. New10 is an online tool for commercial loans. And actually, what New10 told us is that it's not so much about getting, as soon as possible the funds to a client's account. The client wants to know if he can make the investment. So it's much more important to know very quickly, can I get the loan or not? With NUTEN within 15 minutes, you know if you can get a loan. And within 48 hours, it's on your account as long as you distribute the right documents that we need. Now we talked a lot about TIKI also. And actually, France, I want to take the opportunity to thank you for that. Because TIKI very much is also relevant for our commercial banking clients. We have now over 1500 clients and it's rapidly growing that are using TIKI from a commercial perspective. We're a solid contributor to ABN AMRO and we provide around 20% of gross income. We make the target for ROE. In short, we have a great business, but how are we going to make it even better? We are convinced that accelerating the sustainability shift is our biggest business opportunity in the coming years. We see sustainability as a growth opportunity. And by implementing sustainability in our business model, we really respond both to market and client needs. Our real goal is to facilitate our clients in their transition to a sustainable business model. So it's not only about green, but it is becoming a sustainable business or creating a sustainable business as a client. And we call it accelerating the sustainability shift. Now we see definitely that there are some challenges there, but we also believe that there are a lot of opportunities. Now don't get me wrong. This is a real pool. It's a pool for sustainable and circular solutions, and this pool is by our clients. Our analysis shows that 80% of our clients are busy with sustainability and 70% of them really believe that the bank should play a role there. If I talk about sustainability, I talk mainly about 2 transitions. 1st of all, the energy transition from fossil to 0 emission and secondly, from linear to circular. Now of course, there's also a transition in the social area, social entrepreneurship to social impact. We're still assessing how our role should be in that space and what type of impact do we want to make. So therefore, I didn't include that in this presentation. Now we estimated the markets for potential for the potential of sustainability. So let me start with energy. We see a market potential of around EUR 14,000,000,000 in the SMB market in the Netherlands for the coming years up to around 2,030, And that's out of a total of SEK 70,000,000,000. And these numbers are based on a Dutch government report regarding the climate agreement. In a circular transition, we see a clear market potential every year of €7,000,000,000 and that's in the Dutch market. And that's out of a total of EUR 66,000,000,000. And that number is based on the analysis of data of the Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics. Now I see you think, yes, definitely a nice story, but how are you going to capitalize on that? We want to capitalize on that by an engagement strategy. We will proactively approach all of our clients with sustainable propositions, and we want to help facilitate their transition. Now of course, that has to do with clients that are already there in their mindset, but it also very much has to do with helping clients that are not yet there and show them what the possibilities are. And this engagement will lead to a number of goals. Kees already told you about our goal on the energy in the energy transition. So by 2,030, we want a full real estate portfolio to have an energy label A. But also, we have to go in the circular transition. And that is that by 2020, we want to finance at least a total of EUR 1,000,000,000 circular deals and a number of 100 circular deals. So concluding on this, this is actually an impact that we want to make, 1st of all, on societal return on investments and secondly, financial return. And we find them both equally important. Now allow me to zoom in a little bit extra on the 2 transitions. First, the energy transition. It's all about reducing CO2 emissions. And of course, as a bank, we are in a position to really contribute substantially to that. Take alone our real estate portfolio. That's responsible for 40% of all CO2 emissions in the Netherlands. So by helping our clients to improve the label, of course, we make an impact. But of course, energy transition is not all about real estate. So let me give you some other examples. One example is, for example, a company called Fibers. They use elephant grass to make a green alternative to plastic. Now we help them to develop growth plans to upscale production. Now of course, this is traditional banking. This is traditional banking with a different type of player and a different type of risk model. Another example that comes to mind is the raising of equity and debt for the Dutch wind farms. And we do that by applying our expertise on project finance. Now of course, we do that very much together with your team Rutger, where the project finance expertise and the equity expertise is very well developed. And together, we closed a deal in June last year on an offshore wind farm, which is located 50 kilometers off the coast of the Dutch coast. And once that's operational in 2021, the product will deliver clean electricity to at least 800,000 households. Now then the circular transition. If I talk about the circular transition, we got very inspired by the concept of product as a service. In other words, paying for usage instead of ownership. And I have a very nice example there of a company called Homey. And that's a business that rents out washing machines and it takes care also of the maintenance. And they link the washing machines to the Internet, so they can see what the condition of the washing machine is. And the user pays for loads, and he can change his mind at any day to cancel the transaction they have with Homey and buy a washing machine. We believe that this is a really nice model and a very sustainable model. And of course, we've provided them with funding. This is something that we've done for years, but again, this is a very inventive customer that we really want to support. So in both transitions, there are plenty of commercial opportunities for a bank that really embraces sustainability. Until now, I talked to you about potential with clients in sustainability, but mostly interest related transactions. Now of course, we very much also believe in making a diversion in our revenue mix. So we would like to very much increase the fee potential that we have. And we believe we can do that by bringing value added services to our clients. And Christian already mentioned in his presentation, if we want to remain relevant in a changing landscape, then we have to team up with partners. And I am extremely convinced that, that's the way forward, also for the Commercial Bank. I've listed a few partnerships that we have today, and I wanted to elaborate on 1, which is Opportunity Network. And Opportunity Network is an example of an added value platform, where our clients where we offer our clients the potential to connect with other clients. And it's actually when I go to clients in the commercial banking area, it's one of the questions that all of them have. Can you please connect me to other clients in the sector? And this is a nice way of doing it via technological platform. And it gets real opportunities for growth, acquisitions, sales and to connect with each other. Now what's the revenue model there for us? 1st of all, we get a fee from clients that get on the platform. And second of all, once they're on the platform and they want to do a deal, if they need any services, financial, M and A or other type of services, we are connected on the platform as well, and we can deliver it there and then. Now let's focus on 2 relevant elements from a P and L point of view, top line development and costs. Historically, we've delivered as promised a solid profitable growth. And as the slide also demonstrates, we will continue to do so. Future growth is expected to be in line with Dutch GDP as it has always been. But the good thing about focusing on sustainability is that it will generate more fee income, and I tried to tell you about it. If we look at two examples, one is opportunity network that brings a fee income, but also another opportunity is the ticket platform again. And Frans already highlighted, we're very much busy together to see what type of added value we can bring extra on the ticket platform. Now efficiently, a good we want to make good progress in improving our costs and efficiency. And of course, it's extremely important. We are focused on being a future proof bank. So this is the number one thing that we need to do. Now as you can see, our cost income ratio is trending down, and this is despite the fact that we have invested a lot in our Know Your Customer improvements. We've made a number of initiatives over the last couple of years. First of all, we changed the management structure. We had a separate SME offering. We put a sector based approach in place, but also we executed on a location strategy. We had 24 offices before, and we're now reduced to 14 offices. We closely work together with our retail colleagues because we want to digitize our offering. We want to create hassle free banking, which is very good for our customers and also very efficient for us, and we will keep on focusing on this. Now concluding, we delivered what we promised during the IPO. We continue to grow our top line, and we continue to manage our costs efficiently. Therefore, we continue to deliver to contribute to the bank. And while doing so, we want to also drive the agenda for the sustainable accelerating the sustainable shift of our clients with the goal to help them transition to a sustainable business. Now that will help society, but that will also help our financial performance. I hope that I demonstrated to you that sustainability is a real growth opportunity. And with that, I would like to conclude. I want to ask Rutger to join me at the stage for some Q and A. Thank you. Thanks very much. Who's first? It's Jason. First question, I mean, again, maybe for the last meeting. But just as we go through the day, we everyone is basically saying that they are a lot more optimistic on the net fee and commission. And it will be nice to address, I mean, in 2019, we'll understand that transition in a year for a number of segments, but it looks like there is a lot of optimism coming through throughout all the presentations. So it would be nice to understand why the outlook is still flattish over the next 2 years and not just over 2019 and then actually seeing some nice growth coming through. So coming back now. The other question is to just looking at the diamond segment, we discussed a bit with Tania earlier. It is you have, I think, a €1,000,000,000 exposure. You're in a market where you're dominant. You have standard charter, which is the other player. So you're 2 big players there. It is I'm trying to understand 2 things. It is one, how can you bring down your exposure in such a market where at the end of the day, you could have also a collapse, which maybe is not included in how you approach that market from an impairment perspective? The second is how do you avoid such areas? What have you done in the organization to avoid going in such segments, situations, etcetera? And the third element is are you confident that, for example, in that area, you do not have structures or anything else that could attract any regulatory tension? Yes. Great question. Thanks for asking. The best proof of the pudding is that we actually already have been derisking the portfolio quite a bit. And as we speak, we are exiting our office in Dubai and we agreed with 98% of the existing client base on a repayment schedule. And what we are seeing today is that other local banks are taking over those lending commitments. So that is what we are seeing today. Now let me can you repeat your second question? Yes. It is I was saying that you're in dominant position. So how can you if you try to retract, and especially in the bigger markets because in Dubai, it's easier, how do you avoid basically an implosion? Yes. Yes. Listen, that derisking takes place in a very controlled way. If I may say, because at the end of the day, you have done a great job in being trying to earlier on increase your exposure. The problem is that you are with another player. And at the end of the day, there is no natural in Dubai, maybe you have managed, but you don't have naturally someone else that can take over the business. Yes. True. But part of the exposures have been shifting, for example, from our Belgium portfolio to the Middle East portfolio. And apparently, there is local appetite for those clients to be taken over. And that's the way how we manage it. Okay. Who's next? Omar in the back, if I see it correctly because it's a bit difficult to with all the lights. Hi, Omar Thor from Barclays. Just on CIB, can you give us even a vague sense of what the equivalent ROE is for the 10% under Basel IV? Just because I'm not sure how meaningful that number is when there's an undisclosed but extremely sizable amount of RWA inflation going through that business? And as a follow on to that, what's the plan B in case you don't hit the 10% or whatever the real number is? And how long would we have to wait until you get to that plan B? Is it going to be 2021 as per the target? Or are you likely to be a lot more flexible around what you do with this business? And then just the second question would be or 3rd or whatever it is, Just on the That's a lot of questions. Yes. On the clearing business, why are you the right owner of that business when it has such a burden from a leverage perspective, but makes 2% of group earnings and has no obvious synergy with what you look like? Thanks. Okay. Let me start with your last question on the clearing bank. Why is that a good business? Because as I showed you on the slide, that business is generating a return on equity close to 20%. And as Kees already said in his presentation, if soccer is going to be implemented and then where we see an uptick of 50 basis points in the leverage ratio. So that is positive. And there are also some synergies between clients because, for example, within trade and commodity finance, there are good multiproduct clients where we provide clearing services. So there is actually quite some synergy there. So that's my answer on your clearing question. Then on the Basel IV question, Can you repeat that? Yes. What is the 10% in reality under Basel IV? And also, what is the plan B for this business if you don't hit 10% or whatever it is on the Basel IV? I'll make it easy because I leave it to Clifford. I had to talk a bit more. Otherwise, the guy doesn't have any questions. And I promise you, when you drive home tonight, I make one commitment to deliver. So there's no plan B. I just deliver. Comforting. Who's next? Yes, we've got is there a question on that side of the room? Sorry, yes, because we keep walking. Alicia. And you're next, Marcelo. So just two questions from me. Firstly, both ABN and ING in Q3 results talked about seeing some late cycle behavior in Leveraged finance and real estate finance. I just wanted to understand a little bit more what exactly are you seeing there? How big is that for you? And what are you doing to constrain lending there? How far will you go in terms of constraining that? And on a similar basis, I mean, that sounds like it's possible that those are maybe the early warning kind of segments where you might start to see late cycle. What other sectors could we be looking out for within CIB and within commercial that might where we might start to see some late cycle behavior as well? And then just to go back on Omar's Basel IV point, because I think it is really important. I think it's really good what you're doing in terms of meeting a 10% ROE on Basel III. On my estimates, that would get you to roughly 6% to 7% ROE on a Basel IV basis. So it still is quite far away. So how much how long will it take you to get Basel IV ready? I know you say you are getting Basel IV ready, but how long will that take you? And what will you be doing to get there? Thanks. Let me start with your last question and then hand over to Daphne on your question on the sectors and what we see there. How long does it take us to be ready for Basel IV? As I explained in my presentation, the whole portfolio of CIB is churning before 2022. So that allows us to already start progressive repricing as of 2019 because part of the portfolio will be churning and that runs longer into the time. So we will be able to look and identify in the entire portfolio where to move best the capital. And that's my answer to your question. So we can we already have started today by also identifying clearly with each and every client that enters into the Capital Allocation Committee what is the impact of Basel IV. And some of the situations we just don't do or we drop. And because if the impact is way too negative, forget about it. So we need to be we are very disciplined about that. Now to you, Dafna. That's actually the same in the commercial bank. We look at very much at healthy transactions and we see the bank. We look at very much at healthy transactions, and we see the market is, yes, turning again a bit. So it's quite competitive. Now that starts also my FR and R heart then because then I've seen during other times what can happen. And actually during the time, we've spent a lot of time with the commercial banking area and of course also in other areas to make a better detection system. So we call it detect and act, and that's a way of making sure that we have early warning signs and also discuss these early warning signs with our clients. So that's a way for us to try and tackle the market turning again. And then on the leveraged finance question specifically, I refer to Tanja, which he said this morning. We have strict adherence and a cap on that portfolio, And we really adhere to the moderate risk profile. So we're not moving into very covenant life structures and In the same accounts for real estate, which is in my area. Yes. Okay. Marcel? Yes. Thanks for taking my question. One question for Dovna. Can you talk a little about the competitive environment on the Dutch SMEs? Do you see inflow of new players? Or is it basically the big three having an oligopoly position in the market? And how do you because you said margins have been relatively stable, how do you expect that to go forward, please? Yes. We were expecting actually quite some new entrants. And until now, it didn't materialize too much, maybe in specific products. So if you look at transaction banking, for example, there we see specific type of players targeting that market. But I think mostly the 3 Dutch banks are still, yes, quite active in the SME markets. And your second question on margins. What we've seen over the last couple of years is that it's actually quite stable. And that's also what I expect going forward because now there is a competitive market again. We still keep our margins stable. That is, of course, is a difference. If you look at the portfolio that's a legacy portfolio, it's longer time there, a new portfolio that you have. But I would say for the coming years, I see that still remaining stable. Hi there. Just a quick question, Rob, both actually on CIB. Two questions essentially. Firstly, just on the SME file. I mean, obviously, there's penalties and we know what those kind of numbers are. How much administrative cost has been kind of pinned down by that? And what can you do about that once that kind of exercise is finally completed? And secondly, just coming back to leverage under Basel IV, what's the actual leverage exposure of the CIB business at the moment? And you've given us a bit of outlook about how RWA will develop. I just wondered what the leverage measure might develop in the future. Okay. Yes. I'll leave that question to Clifford. He's already nodding, so that's good news. On the derivative file, we've been taking a lot of provisions already in the past. As you can track the annual reports and the quarterly reports, for example, in the 1st 6 months, and we took €37,000,000 in additional provisioning there. And we expect to close it all Q1 of this of 2019, and that's where I like to leave it. Actually just to come back, my question was actually on the administrative costs pinned down by that because obviously there's the kind of penalty component, but actually presumably there are a lot of people out there to deal with the actual final. Yes. That's all taken care of. That's already in our question. Yes. And it's roughly Don't expect there. Yes, it's roughly EUR 250,000,000 or so of the provisions taken so far for project costs. So that covers, I think, what you're aiming at. Jose? Jose? Jose Corre from Santander. My question is on CIB. You're reducing risk weighted assets and you're thinking that 10 ROE under Basel III and take into account what could happen under Basel IV. But you're going to churn your whole portfolio by 2022 even before right when Basel IV is going to start. So do you have any clue as to what pricing is going to look like for the TCF, specialized lending? Because there's high risk weighted asset inflation coming that way. So maybe you are abandoning clients that are going to be later profitable for others to pick up instead of just going along with them for now until you see some you have more clues on what pricing is going to look like going forward? I find it really difficult to look at pricing levels 4 years from now. What I can say is that today, we are competitive. Our competitors are the Dutch bank and the French banks. And they all are in a level playing field as we are. So I find it hard to say where it's moving. What I can tell you because I see many clients and also the big trade and commodity clients like I mentioned, and they recognize that it will be changing and that they need to pay higher prices, for example, for the standby revolving credit facilities. So that is and they are already preempting on that. And that's not because we are the only ones saying that, but our colleague competitors are also giving those signals. Sorry, just a quick follow-up. So you're not afraid that you are by prioritizing ROE today, you're not giving away future business after Basel IV reprice? No, no. Yes. Actually, in connection to that question, I was wondering that I think on the Basel III, you basically have a competitive advantage in your level playing field. And that's probably why most of the French banks and you guys are active in that field. But due to base of forward, that level playing field might change a little bit. So in connection to that question, aren't you afraid that with this focus on ROE, there might be some competition coming in basically to try to push you out basically. I'm not that afraid because what we are doing with the portfolio is to push out the single product non accretive clients and focus on that example that I gave multiproduct advisory, cash management, debt capital markets. So there's a unique long term relationships that we have with these type of clients. And these clients show that you're able to do generate well above the 10% return. And that's where we're moving the entire portfolio to. And maybe as a follow-up, can you indicate on your book where Basel IV is in a more international perspective, where you are suffering from the RWA inflation and where your peers are not, so where repricing will be quite more challenging basically? Yes. We have not provided details, but I can tell you, like I already showed on my slide, is that particularly in asset based financing in these global sectors, that's an area where we are taking capital out for the simple reason that we expect those type of structures being hit hard in Basel IV. That's the reason why we announced to take capital out of the energy offshore portfolio, DC supply, but also part of the shipping one or two quick ones. Yes. The Van Der Werme is a very quick one. You already indicated that 98% of your Dubai Diamond clients have prepayment repayment agreement. That should go quick because you said that a lot of local banks have agreed to take over that landing. So should we see that already Q4 or Q1 of next year? Listen, it's there are shorter repayments, and there are longer repayment schedules. So it's a mix. So you see you will see that coming down in the next 2 to 3 years. Final question, anybody? Is it Omar in the back? Yes, sorry. So just one more question. At the Q2 results when you presented the CIB reduction refocusing, you stated that the €5,000,000,000 was a net number. Correct. What is gross value of the reduction within the plan? It's higher than €5,000,000,000 Let me not disclose the exact number because basically we like to also have some capital into the well performing Northwestern European Businesses and with the Multi Product clients. So it's more than €5,000,000,000 we're taking out. Let me not disclose the exact number. Thank you. Okeydoke. With that, I would like to suggest a very short break of about 15 minutes, and then we'll come back with Clifford Abrams, our CFO. Thanks. Just waiting for colleagues to sit down. It's good to kick off the much anticipated final presentation of the day. I'm Clifford Abraham, CFO, and I know you'll be interested in this final session, which focuses on the numbers. You've all waited all day. I'll also try and pick up some of the questions we had during the course of the day. It's great to be here in my hometown. I've worked here in London for many years at Morgan Stanley and then Aviva. And after that, I moved to the Netherlands as CFO of Delta Lloyd, the insurer and then ABN AMRO last year. Over the past year at ABN AMRO, I've been impressed by the people, by the business and the opportunity. So recapping now on strategy. Kees talked this morning about how we've delivered on our promises at IPO. He set out our purpose and priorities, Banking for Better. You've heard also from the Executive Committee on how they're driving the business. And throughout the day, we've run through the 3 pillars and show how these are being embedded in the business. We're convinced that sustainability is a tangible business opportunity. Daphne described the opportunities she sees in the commercial bank. Peter set out the client demand for sustainable investments. Christian and Frans described how our focus on customer experience improves retention, strengthens cross sells and delivers low cost through digital. Future Proof Bank is about lower costs, but also the capital efficient model that Rutger is implementing in CIB. We're all convinced that our focus on the 3 pillars will create long term value for our clients, for our staff, the society and investors. So I'd now like to focus on you, our shareholders. We want to drive value for you through our focus on capital generation and return. Kees highlighted our track record at IPO and how we're delivering on our targets. You can see here on the right that since IPO, we've delivered over 11% per annum in capital generation through our book value growth and dividends. This reflects our commitment to the value drivers set out on the left. We want to deliver reliable earnings, show disciplined cost management, maintain moderate risk profile, drive robust ROE with controlled RWAs, ensuring strong capital generation. This, together with a strong and resilient capital position, enables attractive dividends to shareholders. So I'll first talk you through our P and L, how we drive reliable earnings and control our costs. And after that, our approach to capital management, how we translate earnings into capital and then cash for shareholders. So starting with income. On this slide, you see 3 charts regarding net interest income, namely client lending, net interest income and deposit margins on the right. We've delivered good growth in NII in recent years through volume growth and resilient margins. Margins have been strong in margins as we've maintained our pricing discipline through an upswing in the Dutch housing market. Our margins have been resilient on deposits as we've steadily reduced our deposit rates in the face of declining rates. These deposit rates are now around 3 basis points. So this process has now run its course. So going forward, we expect to face headwinds on margins from here. So that's challenges on mortgages, reflecting the competition that Frans discussed and pressure on deposit margins reflecting low market rates. We've set out on the right our base view of deposit margins and 2 scenarios. As you can see, we expect some modest further deposit margin pressure in our base scenario with a range around that geared to the time and pace of interest rate rises in Europe. Given this margin pressure, we're focused on maintaining pricing discipline in mortgages, selectively growing in profitable segments like consumer lending that Frans set out earlier as well as originate to distribute to generate fees across the bank. A number of colleagues talked about that earlier today. So consequently, we expect our NII to be modestly lower short term, but pick up after that as rates and volumes normalize. Pressure on NII means we are of course focused on fee income, which I've set up on the next slide. You can see here on the left that our reported fees have reduced in recent years, reflecting disposals, but our underlying fees have in fact been quite resilient. As you've heard, each of our businesses are working hard to grow fee income from here. So you'll recall Frans talked about opportunities from his focus in insurance and investment. In CIB, our transformed business model will in time deliver a less capital intensive business model and fees for more distribution. And Peter and Daphna highlighted the opportunities they see in fees. So at this point, I'll address the fake news of our fee prospects over time. So we expect in the short term fees to be fairly flat. And in particular as Hukka indicated, we are shrinking the corporate bank which is a material fee contributor. So we're cautious in the short term. But over time, we expect the growth initiatives that the team have talked about to pick up and deliver low single digit growth in fee income. So there's a short term, long term timeframe to consider. On the right, we've set out other income. So our other income has been elevated in recent years, reflecting disposals and private equity gains. Going forward, we expect other income to remain broadly in line with our guidance of €125,000,000 per quarter. So we recognize the pressure on income growth, so we need to stay very focused on costs, which I've set out on the next slide. As you've heard today, we've made good progress on our current cost programs. You can see here on the left, we've delivered already 2 thirds or over €600,000,000 of cost savings from the programs that we announced in 2016. And you can see on the right, these cost savings have enabled us to maintain our underlying costs at a little over €5,000,000,000 in recent years. So we're well on track to reach our 2020 cost ambition, including €80,000,000 of additional cost savings in the Corporate Bank, which we announced in Q2. So turning to costincome ratio. We're also very much on track on our costincome ratio target of 56% to 58% in 2020. You've heard today from Kees and Christian our target beyond 2020 to deliver less than 55% costincome ratio in 2022. We need to be realistic about the headwinds to costincome ratio, which I've set out top right, including the significant costs of regulatory change. All banks need to address these headwinds. We've been clear with you on our current initiatives deliver the 56% to 58% by 2020 and the related cost base of around €5,000,000,000 per annum. We also want to be clear on the further measures we will implement to deliver in 2022 less than 55% cost to income ratio, whilst reflecting the headwinds. These further measures include improved IT cost efficiency through demand, productivity and supply levers as Christian explained as well as further product rationalization and process improvement across business lines and support functions, which the team discussed throughout the day. Christian also explained how these measures will support income over time. Now these are all long term programs, so we need to plan and get on with these now as our current programs are landing and to ensure it's all affordable within our cost income ratio targets. So I'd explain how we deliver reliable earnings and how we manage our costs and our progress on our targets. I'll now set out how we translate reliable earnings into capital generation and then cash. So I've set out here how we think about capital and cash dividends, which drives value for shareholders. Up top, I show the 3 key drivers. So robust ROE, well controlled RWAs and strong capital generation. We're focused on managing each of these carefully so we can deliver on our commitment of strong cash returns to you in dividends. So first, we aim to deliver a robust ROE, the source of capital generation, and this is equivalent to 200 basis points of CET1 capital generation per annum. We focus strictly on our RWAs to ensure our capital requirements remain well controlled. We have and will maintain a strong and resilient capital position under the various regimes. So that's Basel III Basel IV the new regime in leverage. And so by doing this, we ensure that our capital generation is available largely for distribution to shareholders. In line with our dividend policy, we will distribute the surplus to you in cash dividends. So our overall position is summarized here at the bottom. We're well capitalized under Basel 34, but leverage constrained in the short term. So while we don't have a material surplus of capital per day, our strong capital generation is largely available to distribute to investors as cash dividends over time. So I'll now talk through each of the components set out here and noted by the sort of orange boxes as we go through, so we're all completely clear. So first, the first driver, our robust ROE. So we're committed to delivering on our ROE target of 10% to 13% per annum. As I mentioned, this generates 200 basis points of capital per annum. You can see on the left that we've consistently delivered this as a group since IPO. But not all businesses are delivering and Luca described the necessary measures we're ensuring in CIB to ensure that business delivers too. So all our businesses are extremely focused on ROE and they know and we know that each of the businesses needs to deliver under Basel III and in DUKOR's Basel IV. So I'll spend a moment now to talk about CIB Basel III and Basel IV. So we have a clear plan to deliver over 10% ROE under Basel III and which we set out in August this year and that Hukka described in detail. And at the half year, we reported ROE of around 6% and now for the 3 quarters around 9%. Now that benefited from private equity gains, but also we're still challenged with high impairments. So normalized, we're actually not far short of 10% already. And the specific levers we identified at the half year will deliver that over 10% ROE under Basel III. Those leave us at costs and reducing capital and moving it from high return from low return under Basel III to high return under Basel III. The further measures that Hooker identified regarding originate to distribute are those levers that will take us to accept returns under Basel IV. So I'll talk a little bit more about this later. But the numbers that Alicia mentioned earlier, 6% or 7% under Basel IV, approximately right. What will lift us above 10% over time under Basel IV are the mitigations and the new business model that Hukka described and that I'll go on to describe in more detail level later. Finally, pricing will enable us to deliver that in addition. We have a clear plan to deliver over 10% in a relatively short term under Basel III, and we'll give that business time to deliver under Basel IV reflecting that we have up to 9 years transition for Basel IV. So moving now to RWAs. So I've dealt with ROE. Now we're talking about RWAs. So RWAs drive our capital requirements. I've set out here on the left our track record on Basel III RWAs and on the right how this relates to Basel IV. We had many questions on this at the Q3, so I'll take some time to make sure we're all clear. Basel IV RWA inflation increased during 2018, but going forward, we expect that inflation to stabilize and then reduce. And I'll explain why we believe this is the case now. So talking to Basel III on the left. So you can see our Basel III RWAs have been relatively stable in recent years. So while we see quarterly volatility, the overall picture is improving credit quality offset by growth in corporate lending volume. Going forward short term, we expect roughly stable underlying Basel III RWAs as growth in the commercial bank is offset by a reduction in the corporate bank with moderate growth after that. And we think of underlying Basel III RWAs as before the effects of TRIM, model changes, data, credit quality changes, all of which do not flow through the Basel IV. So underlying reflects business volumes. Kees also mentioned our appetite for bolt on M and A, which may impact these numbers, but won't change the underlying picture. So we expect underlying Basel III RWAs roughly constant. So turning to the right on the Basel IV. At year end last year, we said that our Basel IV RWAs were around 35% higher than Basel III. In fact, that figure has increased now to around 43% at Q3, reflecting some updates to our Basel IV calculations and relative growth in corporate lending since year end 2017. And at the same time, Basel III RWAs reduced, reflecting data and credit quality improvements which don't flow through to Basel IV. So our Basel IV calculations represent good faith estimates based on our current view of the rules. We shouldn't over analyze these or over interpret them. This is our best view. We will know for sure in 2022 and beyond. So currently, we have 43% RWA inflation, which translates today as a Basel IV CET1 ratio of around 13%, and that's before mitigations, which I'll talk about later. So we need to recognize that Basel IV is a new framework. The rules are not clear yet and we're all learning to work with it. Nonetheless, going forward, we expect a number of factors to lower Basel IV RWA inflation. And those are our commitment to reduce the corporate bank, which is our most capital intensive business the effect of TRIM and model changes, which will increase our Basel III RWAs and in particular, our Basel IV mitigations. So on the next slide, I'll talk about our approach to ensuring the bank is well placed for Basel IV. So you see here a rather detailed slide which sets out the work and should demonstrate that we're getting ready for Basel IV now. So our work is focused on a number of themes. Firstly, which I've set at the top, mitigation of RWA inflation. Secondly, ensuring that we reduce our capital intensive activities to lower RWAs under both Basel III and Basel IV thirdly, developing new business models to enhance ROE and lastly, pricing to deliver targeted returns of 10% to 13% of Basel IV capital requirements after mitigations and over time. So first, addressing mitigations. So what are mitigations? So we think of mitigations as actions or plans that reduce Basel IV RWAs on the basis of our current business, so our static balance sheet. Our work to date has identified initiatives enable us to mitigate a total of around 1 5th of the 43% Basel IV impact, bringing us to a Basel IV CET1 ratio of above 13.5% today. So above 13.5% including those mitigations. We can already implement some of implement them ahead of the phase in the Basel IV or indeed even later. The key is that we're confident we can do them. I've set out examples of our Basel mitigations here at the top. We plan to enhance our data quality to source the specific inputs for Basel IV rather than rely on prudent default data. We don't all have the data already for Basel IV because there's a new set of rules. We'll work with our clients on external ratings, which give lower risk rates than our internal ratings. The Basel IV gives an incentive to get external ratings for both banks and issuers. We'll also rationalize our products and improve our collateral tailored to the Basel IV rules. These initiatives are not theoretical ideas, but specific initiatives with actual RWA benefits our teams are working on now. But our Basel IV response is not just about mitigations. Rucker explained our approach to reduce CIB RWAs and transform the business model. We also see scope to reprice to reflect Basel IV Capri requirements now and as we get closer to the phase in period. So of course, we're staying close to the rules and the regulatory process to address remaining uncertainty in the regulations. So all in all, we're confident we're on top of our planning and taking the right actions around Basel IV. So turning now to our capital position. We've set up our target capital range in terms of Basel III, the current regime, but reflecting our view of the transition to Basel IV. We've updated our target capital range here on the left. Kees mentioned that this morning. As you can see, we expect to maintain our target capital range of 17,000,000 after 18,500,000 also for 2019, including Basel IV implementation buffer and subject to SREP. We're currently well placed in that range at 18.6% just above this. This position and this buffer enables us to meet the fully loaded Basel IV target early in the phase in. So we are constrained by the output floor. So the impact of Basel IV on us will actually be at the back end of the phase in period. So we think we're being prudent, rightly so. We explain on the right that we estimate our RWA inflation to increase from 35% to 43%, but with the effect of mitigations offsetting this, we're comfortable maintaining our current target range. So I want to emphasize that these mitigations are before the benefits of the CIB refocus. So our Basel III target range of 17.5% to 18.5% is a simple metric, but it's not a mechanical calculation. So it reflects our judgment around Basel IV rules, timing of the phase in, confidence in mitigations and timing, TRIM and model changes. And we'll continue to keep this under review as regulations in our business develops and we'll update you on this annually or in the event of material changes. Next, I'll show how we're managing our capital position. I mentioned earlier, we need to manage our capital with respect to Basel III, Basel IV and leverage. I've set out here our position under the various regimes. And at 18,300,000 we're well placed under Basel III given the Basel IV buffer. And Tanja explained that our Basel III capital position is resilient under stress. We're also well positioned under Basel IV at around 13% before mitigations and over 13.5% now after mitigations. I mentioned earlier the trends in RWAs. We need to be mindful of SREP, provision reviews, industry wide NPA guidance which may impact capital and which Tanja described and those impacts may impact all three of the capital regimes. And in that context our leverage ratio is currently constraining. Our regulator currently looks for us to maintain at least 4%. And so with 4.1%, we have only limited headroom in the short term. So all in all, we're well positioned for Basel III and Basel IV with leverage currently constraining. So what's the outlook for leverage? So you can see on the left that our leverage ratio is currently one of the very lowest among European banks. Kees mentioned we expect our client lending and exposure to be roughly stable short term and grow modestly thereafter. And those drivers will flow through to the exposure measure under the leverage ratio. But we expect 2 developments set out on the right to address our constraining leverage over time. So we're exploring a legal merger of our main bank and holding company to take place during 2019 and this would release around 20 basis points of leverage ratio. The new sucker rules, which we talked about earlier, will remove the constraining effect of the leverage ratio by 2021. And if we can adopt Sucker early, we'll have more flexibility on the legal merger. So while leverage ratio currently constrains our capital position and so limits additional dividend payout in the short term, we expect this no longer to be the case in the future. So finally, turning to dividend. You can see on the left, we have a good track record of increasing our dividend since IPO. At full year 2017, we refreshed our dividend policy to 50% of sustainable profit plus additional distributions. As Kees highlighted, our preference is for additional distributions in cash dividends and at least short term not in buybacks. This way we have more control over the timing. I want to be clear that we will be prudent in our additional dividend payout. And that prudence reflects regulatory developments modest increases in capital requirements, for example bolt on acquisitions and in the longer term, balance sheet growth possible increases in credit risk weights as we pass the best point of the credit cycle. We are ABN AMRO. You expect us to be prudent. But we've made good progress on capital. And therefore, we've raised the dividend accrual to 60% of our year to date profit to provide for dividend flexibility this year. We'll take a final decision with our full year results. Beyond 2018, we are well placed to consider additional dividend payouts on top of our 50% sustainable profit. So in conclusion, at the start of the presentation, I highlighted our approach to value creation, how we're committed to delivering on our targets. I explained how we deliver reliable earnings and that we can continue to deliver despite short term headwinds from low rates. We're well on track with our cost income ratio target of 2020 and committed to deliver on a more ambitious target for the cost income ratio for 2022. Tanu explained that we have and will maintain a moderate risk profile. I've run through our clear framework for capital and dividend, robust ROE, controlled RWAs and strong capital position. We are preparing well for Basel IV and with mitigations we are already above 13.5%, our target for early in the phase in period. We're also addressing our leverage ratio constraint. And so whilst maintaining our reputation for prudence, we're committed to delivering attractive cash returns to you, our shareholders. Thank you for your attention. I'll be pleased to take your questions. There's a lot of hands. Okay, very good. Here we go. Who gets the well, let's we'll start here on this side and we'll slowly work that way. So far Yes. Yes, keep talking. Firstly, just on the phasing and the 20%, I mean, you got 20% mitigation factor that you're kind of talking to. Is there any kind of particular time frame in terms of how you might you obviously are starting now, but should we think of that linearly the phasing period as kind of reasonable assumption? And then secondly, just on the legal entity merger, how I mean presumably this is part of the dialogue with the regulator already, I presume, is how advanced and confident are you about achieving that 20 bps? Okay. So on the mitigations, so Basel IV is not in yet. We just know the rules, right? We think we do. We want to be fully loaded compliant early in the phase in. So that means we need to have a high degree of confidence that mitigations will land early in the phase in. So clearly, if we've done them now, that gives us a high degree of confidence, right? But if we have very clear plans that we're convinced we can achieve or in time we feel we have, call it, a whole bucket of mitigations and we can probability weight it for example that gives us confidence around our ability to target early in the phase in. And that's how we're thinking about it. So we're not going to wait for mitigations. We know we can do those. We plan them. We'll plan them over time. And we'll ensure that we can comfortably deliver on our target early in the phase in. I think on the legal merger, I think you'd expect us to have done our homework before we've talked about legal merger today. We've said exploring legal merger. So it's a complex thing. And in particular, it's not just the local regulators, regulators around the world that we need to work through as well as other stakeholders. So we're exploring it seriously or we wouldn't have talked about it, but we have some work to do through 2019 to deliver it. Okay. Shall we sort of like, yes, Benoit and then we'll move the mic. You can move it to Jose and then we'll over that. We'll get there. On Basel IV, can we agree that the kind of 43% quota asset inflation is absolute the worst case you might get? And if I look, I mean, a lot of conservatism from the beginning of the presentation to the end. And it's for example, I mean, LTVs, you take origination, there will be a lot of amortization of high LTVs going forward. We know that the new production is done at low LTVs. So could you talk about how much impact comes from mortgages? Are you hopeful for a deal at European level that actually they won't take the worst case until you get origination, but might take into account indexed valuations? Just to know a bit more about, could we be younger or be the 20% because it feels that there's more room for? So I think well, we can't agree that the 43% is the worst case. No, we can't agree that. So our 43% we think is a reasonable estimate. There are risks and opportunities and we can run through those. But we see a range around it. We're confident enough in our assumptions to give an indication and we think giving a range is not helpful Basel IV. And we know that other banks, very few other banks even talk about it, in fact none outside Benelux. I think the in terms of our we've been clear that 43% is on a static balance sheet. So I strongly believe the right way to talk about this is the way we have, which is mitigations based on the current static balance sheet, so you're clear on that, and changes to the business model or changes to that static balance sheet, which we flagged in relation to CIB and which you can look at the effect of both. There'll be a little bit of overlap. But fundamentally, we think that's the right way to talk about it. And to talk about it altogether is confusing. So I think in due time, if we get as we get more confident in mitigations, we might bake them into our RWA estimate. If we've actually done them now, then they'll flow through to the estimate. So that's the right way to think about it. I don't think the fact that no one's talking about Basel IV other than a few banks, I don't think should give you a lot of confidence that it's not an issue. We think it is an issue, and we've been open about how we're thinking about it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We are going now. Go on, go on, yes. Okay. So you said that after mitigations that you expect to have already done before the phase in or about the beginning of the phase in period for Basel IV, you'd be at already at 13.5% fully loaded, Basel IV impact all included. So is it fair to assume that going forward, barring any private equity Taqin acquisitions that you're going to distribute via dividends all the excess capital that you generate? Yes. Well, I think Kees talked about this earlier. So if we have excess capital that we don't need, we will distribute that to shareholders. But it won't be a mechanical look back. I mean as Kees indicated, we're at 18.6 today, not 18.5. And I highlighted some of the themes we'll be thinking about. If we think credit weights are going to go up or we know there are regulatory changes, then clearly we're not going to distribute and then go below our range. We've set out our range. We want to operate in that range, and that's how we'll manage it. I think I would take comfort from our commitment to capital generation and our commitment to return rather than a sort of mechanical mathematical approach in how we think about dividend payout. And we'll take it year by year. Hi. It's Ralph Sinner from JPMorgan. If I can help you please just on the same theme. Can I just confirm firstly that the time line for the consideration of additional distributions is annual related to this rep process? So the next logical time frame for considering additional distributions is going to be full year results 2019, which implies early 2020 is when we should think about additional distributions? So this year, the focus is dividend payout. We'll make a decision in February regarding that. We've not ruled anything out. I think Kees talked about that earlier today. We haven't ruled anything out between year end points. I think while we have a preference for dividend, the natural time to do it is the year end. But we're reserving our position to consider other means, other times, subject to the principles we talked about. That's very clear. Thank you. The second one is on the process of actually returning capital. Is it fair to think that a normal buyback doesn't make sense for ABN AMRO given your free float is obviously lower and a targeted buyback which is linked to the government stake placing makes much more sense. And so that's the sort of preferred way. So this is the buyback that we've said we preferred not to do, is that buyback? Yes. That's the one. Okay. I think Kees talked about it. I won't add to Kees' comments earlier. Okay. Paolo, can you yes, on the phone? A quick follow-up on the leverage. So if you execute legal merger, it will get you to a point where leverage will no longer be a constraint, and that positions you very well for distribution from 2019 forward. If for any reason that doesn't happen, are there any other measures you can optimize or change leverage ratio that you're thinking about right now? Yes. I think we're managing leverage quite tightly. You can see it at €4,100,000,000 It's tight. I think as we frankly accumulate earnings that helps. Now I think you're thinking of dividends, so there's a sort of one for one around that. So that's one way. The other way is to manage the balance sheet. I think we've talked about managing. Hukka talked about that, in particular our confidence in the clearing business, but also our desire to see CIB come down in size. So I'd work that through. But Kees talked about our overall balance sheet and we don't expect we expect to be fairly stable in the short term reflecting differential growth among the businesses. Okay. Maybe just a quick follow-up. You mentioned that balance sheet will be stable or loans will be stable. Is that the case also for exposure? Yes. I mean exposure and that got some attention after Q3. There's some volatility in exposure. Particularly we see it through the clearing business which is linked to sometimes volatile markets. So it will go up and down, but I don't see the drivers of exposure on balance sheet lending as fundamentally different. Bart Sher, Degroof Petercam. You talked about the P and L, but you basically stopped on costs. And underneath there are still 2 moving points that is your impairments. Are you expecting them to stay below the through the cycle over the whole period? And then secondly, there is the tax decrease plan in the Netherlands. What's the impact of that? Yes. I think on impairment, I think Tanja talked about impairments. I don't know if we where she is. At the back. I've got I didn't want to repeat what she said, frankly. And she talked about 2019 being below the cycle. And we, like you, don't have a crystal ball beyond 2019. I think on taxes, you'll be aware there's some general reductions anticipated in the Netherlands, but also some bank specific factors going on, which is likely to mitigate or neutralize all that benefit. And then the second question, if I may. How are you concerned? Are you really about possible scrap increase in the new NPE rules, given your excellent position in NPEs and also your good performance in the stress test? Yes. Look, I think Kees talked about it. I mean, we're a prudent bunch of people. That's how we run the bank. We don't know what's in our shrep, so we felt it was important to highlight that as a factor between now and year end. I do think NPE guidance is a real issue, not because we have a lot of NPEs, but because there's regulatory change going on. Okay. We'll go to the back because is it Nick? No, Stefan from Citi. Sorry, Stefan, sorry. Yes. Hi, guys. Stefan from Citi. Two questions on my end. In terms of the leverage ratio constraints, and it's something that I've always wanted to ask you, Clifford. Why is it a constraint? You're at 4.1%. You don't have that much excess capital, existing excess capital. So you can go to 100 percent payout ratio, you're not growing that much, 0% growth through 2020, 2% thereafter. So you're throwing off capital. You don't need to be paying out the existing excess capital because you're insuring against future Basel IV developments, maybe you find some more data inconsistencies, your Basel IV guidance may go up again, etcetera. But you can potentially go to the payout of 70, 80, 90. So what is driving that conservatism? Why do you not give the gift to investors today of saying we'll go to 70% or 80%? Well, we're a bank, right? So we need to be prudent. We're rightly regulated given the history of the last 10, 15 years. €4,100,000 is okay, but it's I can think of many factors that would drive that lower. So if the dollar strengthens, that leverage ratio would go down. Or if there are hits to capital, that will affect all those ratios. So I'm not unduly concerned about the leverage ratio, but there's not a lot of headroom there. And we don't want to push all the metrics to their extreme because you lose you get into the wrong dialogue with the regulator. What we the reason we want to run the balance sheet in a prudent way aside from it being the right way to run a bank is it means you can have sensible conversations with the regulator about the medium term and not in the short term why your ratio is not good enough. So yes, you're probably more relaxed about it than I am. I'd like to see that leverage ratio consistently at 4% and not be concerned about what Trump says or what China is doing because the exchange rate is moving around. Okay. Is there another question in the back? If not yes, Albert has got the mic. Yes. Yes. A few questions as well. First of all, on the NHD the government guaranteed mortgages. Is this basically a binary kind of discussion? So it will be a yes or a no? Is there some middle ground outcome as well possible? Of course, you probably see my question coming. If it will be a no, what would be the implication on that Yes. I think you should speak to Benoit. He's probably more relaxed about NHG. So that's not in our estimate because we feel that we get the benefit of the Sovereign Guarantee and that should in Basel III that should flow through to Basel IV. So I think our view is that it's more of a local matter because it's a local guarantee. And the intention of that guarantee is that it is a it's actually a sovereign guarantee. But as the rules are set out, it's not completely clear. And currently, we've not baked it into our assumption. And the way we think about it in our capital planning is that look, we aim to be fully loaded compliant early in the phasing. And if there's some screw up around NHG, then we still have the phasing period to get to where the business we need to be, not because we think that's going to happen, but we don't then have a sort of gun to our head at the end of the period. We've failed to get there and we're embarrassed and we lose control of the dividend. So that's how we're thinking about those sorts of risks. And maybe one small question on the countercyclical buffer. I mean, there was an earlier question raised as well on the Dutch mortgage market, the opening. Yes. Do you maybe expect that the Dutch Central Bank could impose a higher countercyclical buffer? Or is that something I don't know, speculative. You have your views. I mean, we think the current 13.5% is quite full. We talked about it over dinner compared to other banks around Europe. But equally, regulators are looking at all the banks at this point in the cycle, frankly, in the same way you guys are and thinking ROEs are good, capital is good, shouldn't we expect more capital return? And that may affect their thinking around required buffers. Okay. Thank you. I think next, first we'll go to Omar and then we'll go here. Hi, sorry. Just on the merger of the HoldCo and the bank, just to understand, so it's excess AT1 above requirements at the bank that currently don't count at consolidated level. Does that mean that the 81 shortfall of 60 or 70 bps that you currently have as an add on to the MDA trigger, does that go away as part of this merger? And then the other question, and sorry if I missed this, are there any setup costs associated with this that we need to be aware of for next year potentially? Yes. So the short answer is yes to the first part of your question. And the setup costs, I think they're not material to the group. It's a it would be a meaningful kind of legal, regulatory activity, but not material to a group of our size. We put as you know, I think we put a presentation out on the web at the end of last year when the AVA Q and A came in, And that sets things out in quite a lot of detail based on the Q3 balance sheet last year. So you can work through the calculations there. Paul, Ben? Still the setup guys? Sorry? I think they're modest. I said they're modest. I mean they're not Modest assets. Yes. They're not material to the group. It's a legal it's a sort of legal regulatory thing. Thanks. Yes. Thank you, Dan. I wanted to talk a little bit more about Originated Distribute. Sorry. Yes, sorry, hear you. I wanted to talk a little bit about the originate to distribute model because I think Matthias pointed out correctly that your mortgage the mortgage margin in the Netherlands is higher compared to Europe. I guess, originate to distribute would open the market up to more players. Can you talk a little bit about how fees would outweigh maybe margin detriment in that part of the book? I mean, we haven't heard any details about your thinking there, which will be helpful. And the second question is, sorry to come back on capital return, but ASR, who you are probably very familiar with, in the sell down process of the state, they indicated quite clearly that they can't do more capital return than the capital they generate in a certain year. Is that for you also a way of thinking that if you want to participate in the state sell down, you basically can't set your payout ratio too high because that would limit your participation basically. If you set it at 80%, you only have 20% of capital generation if you put in the share buyback. So on mortgages, I mean, our mortgage book is €150,000,000,000 on balance sheet and we earn a return on that capital. I think Frans talked about our initial thinking in terms of size. I think we're hopeful that will go up. I think as CFO, I feel that's a good thing to do. It's the right thing for clients and distribution. I think it will earn a margin on it. So it will help absorb overheads. And I think we're not going to make a huge amount of money on it at least in the short term in terms of materiality to the group P and L. But it's I think it's the right thing to do for the business, particularly at this point of the cycle. And it's I see it as an attractive asset management type business. So high ROE, but fairly low capital because it's effectively a margin business. Yes. But also if insurance companies will get less appetite in the market, they can still originate to distribute as well and still open up the market and basically kill your margin. Yes. But they are doing that. They are doing that. Not killing our margin, but they are the insurers a number of them are full up and they're effectively running the mortgage business as an asset management business. And we can do that. But we have frankly, we feel we have better platform in terms of processing. We have better brands. So we feel we can participate in that business. And that's the opportunity. But that's why the insurance companies have not reallocated it basically to external. It's more putting it on the insurance balance sheet, Evan. I'm not sure that's the case. But turning out we can talk about this afterwards. On the payout, is this sort of a I don't know how to answer that question because we had it earlier. It's sort of what are you going to do how are you going to pay out more than 100% of your earnings was the sort of question. And we talked about our prudence around that some of the factors. I think it's premature. I point you to what I said and what Kees said earlier about buybacks. Okay. Conscious of time. So Marcel? And then we've got one more over there. Yes? Yes. Marcel, yes, go ahead. Clifford, I'm going to give it one more try here on the capital return. I'm sorry. I think the language is a little bit changed regarding the buyback and regarding the placement offering or the government offering. Earlier, Vijay, you said it was a key target to reduce the offering as quickly as possible. Right. It seems that the message or at least the communication towards dividends has increased overbuybacks. Is that the case? No, it has. I mean, we've said, I think in February, we were clear that we were it was 50% plus additional distributions dividends or buybacks. At Q3, we said we had a preference for dividends. So it's definitely changed. We've been clear in the short term our preference is for dividends. And you see we've accrued 60%. So we put our money where our mouth is, albeit subject to the final position at year end. And I think we didn't want any confusion around and dividends and buybacks short term. But at a later date, I'll just refer you to what Kees said earlier about buybacks. Okay. Have you Shark one. Sorry. Have you started the discussion with the DNB or the ECB regarding the buyback approval process because it's a cumbersome approach. We don't comment on our dialogue with regulators. But I'd say that any buyback approval is a 3 month formal process. Okay. Yes, we have one more. Nick Davy from Redburn. A couple of questions, please. Nick, can you keep it short, please? Yes. Keep them short. Go on. Interest rates. How sensitive? Good or bad? And the second one, well, I have to choose my words more carefully, but this is maybe a CEO or a CFO question, but in terms of financial or remuneration incentives for the top managers in the group, for as long as the government is on the register? Do you think you have the right remuneration incentives in place to get this plan delivered to its maximum? Yes, I completely agree. That is a CEO. So we'll see maybe afterwards. We can both talk to Kees about that. I think on interest rates, there is some sensitivity there, which is why we set that out. And I wouldn't get your ruler out on that chart, but it's indicative. And we expect interest rates in Europe to pick up at the end of next year. And that will we think set the low point in terms of deposit margin pressure. If rates stayed where they are today over time or went lower, that would be a big issue for us as well as other banks. So we're being open about it. I think in terms if interest rates moved up quicker, then that would be helpful for our NII. And you probably wouldn't see that modestly lower that we talked about, that Kees and I talked about today. Hope that gives you a feel. Thanks, Nick. One short question from Alicia and then we'll Just one question from me. First part is on Okay. I'm happy to stay afterwards, but This one's a quick one. You talked about restructuring costs for 2018 of about GBP 50,000,000. What can we expect going forward after that? Would it be fair to assume roughly the same for 20 19, 20 20, 2021 or more? Then the second question is just sorry, going back to share buybacks, just a little bit around the logistics of it, whether it happens or not over the medium term. You mentioned the 3 month ECB approval process. Is there also an expiration date on that? Once it's done, do you end up becoming having a sort of circular reference where you have to keep going back to approval or what is everybody you've got? So I think the so on the costs, but we thought it was helpful to highlight the €50,000,000 given where we are in the year, we're in November. We do expect further costs to deliver the ambition that we set out. And we'd expect that to be part of our overall cost target because we include everything in our cost numbers. So the €56,000,000 to €58,000,000 is including restructuring costs. I think on buyback, a couple of points which is I would highlight we don't have a preference for buybacks in the short term. Just so we're if we weren't clear, hopefully we're clear on that. So for the buyback that we don't have a preference to do that one, Look, you've demonstrated it's a bit complicated, isn't it? So you've got you would have to go to the ECB, get approval. And then I think one of the colleagues here talked about timing it with a sell down. So that's a judgment for another group of people reasonably that would reflect the priorities at the time where the markets were. So there's some complexity around that, which is why we have a preference short term for dividends. Thanks very much, Clifford. Thanks all of you. We're nearly at the end. But I would like Kees to come on stage and have some key takeaways for you to think about when you drive home tonight. Well, of course, we're in London, so I don't think you drive, you take a tube. Presumably, your train is also more sustainable, so this is good. Thank you very much for having been here. I hope we have conveyed the message. Well, first of all, we've shown the team. I think that was also part of the meaning of this. We've guided you upfront, not much new targets. Well, we delivered there. And I also think that we have at least shown to you that our updated strategy actually what it means in several business lines. And we've also shown I think that we are I'll let me put it this way, I heard it during lunch I think much more advanced IT wise than some people thought. So that is good news as well I would say, also reflected in the retail area. You've heard a lot of fee initiatives. I think that's also something which some people said, well, we didn't know that. So that's good news also. So I'd like to thank you very much. We will as we did last time since IPO, we will deliver also in the coming years. We are cautious. We are in AMRO. So we'd rather deliver than that we talk too much about what we said. We won't overpromise, that's for sure, but we will certainly deliver on the stuff we've promised to you. So wish you a good weekend, and thanks for taking the time here in these turbulent markets. Thank you very much.

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