Hello, and welcome to the B&S Half Year 2023 results call. My name is Laura, and I will be your coordinator for today's event. Please note, this call is being recorded, and for the duration of the call, your lines will be on listen only. However, you will have the opportunity to ask questions at the end of the call. This can be done by pressing star one on your telephone keypad to register your question. If you require assistance at any point, please press star zero and you will be connected to an operator. I will now hand you over to your host, Peter van Mierlo, CEO, to begin today's conference. Thank you.
Good morning to you all, and thank you for calling in to our Q2 2023 update. As said, my name is Peter van Mierlo, CEO of B&S. With me here on the call is Mark Faasse, our CFO. Looking forward to working together with you and being transparent about the course of action and achievements of our B&S Group. First of all, I'd like to take the opportunity to invite you for a meeting on November 21st, 2023. In this meeting, we will present our ideas and our plans for the future of B&S. B&S has six segments with strong and experienced commercial leaders, all active in branded consumer goods, and at the same time operating in different commercial markets and in different market segments. The market dynamics across the segments do differ quite a bit.
Within the segments and across the segments, the group is realizing synergies in purchasing and sales markets. All segments are serviced by the same service organization, realizing synergies in the back office. Today, we will take you through the highlights of our first half year results announcements, and after that, we will open the call for Q&A. Let me turn to the presentation. As said, we will present our strategy for 2024-2026 on November the 21st. We will present a strategy per segment as well as for the holding company or the service organization. Our first thoughts are around a structure where we will be working with independent segments and the service organization at the top. Working capital has improved, but at the same time still needs focus.
Due to the inflation, branded consumer goods markets have been difficult, which we believe will continue over the next two quarters. We'll be thinking through a financing structure, more focused on the ability to do M&A, but also respecting the seasonal pattern of our business. As you know, Q4 is a very important quarter for the full year for our organization. We do believe that there's room to gain from a mean and lean holding organization with clarity around roles and responsibilities. Last but not least, we have strengthened our governance procedures without impacting the entrepreneurial spirit of the group, centered around initiative and creativity. The executive team, as well as the Supervisory Board today, are, except for one, all independent from the majority shareholder.
The financial highlights, I would like to mention, first of all, that we crossed the EUR 1 billion mark, with revenues of EUR 1. 57 billion, a growth of 7.66%. The growth mainly realized in the first quarter, as you know. While the Liquors and Food segments were down on last year, all other segments contributed to this growth and continues its strong performance, with Personal Care significantly, significantly outperforming last year. The impact of currencies was limited, as was the impact from acquisitions. The acquisitions of the Europe Beauty Group in May last year contributed EUR 8 million to revenues over the period. The largest part of this growth, as said, was realized in Q1, while turnover growth in Q2 was limited to 0.3%, mainly as a result of the already mentioned challenging market conditions.
EBITDA ended at EUR 42.2 million, up from EUR 40.6 million last year, as reported, or EUR 47.8 million when we normalize for provisions for doubtful debtors. Mark will give you the details later on in the presentation. Our net cash from operations improved to EUR -0.3 million, coming from EUR -23.8 million negative last year. As you know, we are building up our working capital in this period of the year for the Q3 and Q4 periods. Let me zoom into our segments, starting with B&S Liquors. The top line in Liquors declined as a result of decreased demand in the second quarter, both in the international market as well as our wholesale markets within Europe. Consumer demand decreased on the back of inflation and, combined with increased product availability, resulted in decreased gross profit margins.
The segment showed an EBITDA of EUR 1.3 million, which includes the EUR 3.6 million in provisions for doubtful debtors, which I mentioned in the beginning. Second segment, Beauty. In Beauty, we continued our growth despite the inflation and declining consumer confidence, which were also notably there. Of the 9% top line growth, 5.8% was organic, driven by our B2C markets. There's still some product scarcity in the market. Margins tightened compared to the high prices of last year, especially in the B2B market. EBITDA for the segment decreased by 15.3% to EUR 16 million, EBITDA margin being 4.6%. In Personal Care, we delivered a 33% growth, driven by the broad variety of in-stock items, including the enhanced private label assortment, enabling to meet increased demand of our customers.
Margins were up, mainly due to portfolio changes. EBITDA more than doubled on the back of this to EUR 21.3 million or 11.7%. In Food, revenues declined somewhat, gross profit and EBITDA were significantly up, mainly due to the absence of the provisions we had to take last year. The decrease in turnover worsened a bit from Q1 to Q2, partly a deliberate choice to focus on margins at the expense of revenues. We saw this recovery, especially in the cruise business, post-COVID, we're able to significantly grow our digital turnover through our platform, King of Reach, which is an important value driver for the segment. In B&S Health, the market conditions improved compared to 2022, although continuous shortages of supplies in the market limited its growth.
Turnover increased by 11%, with the travel-related vaccine business continuing to recover. Gross profit margins were stable. Last but not least, the B&S Travel Retail segment. Although there is a further recovery of passengers since the COVID pandemic, which led to 30% increase in turnover next to the newly opened stores, the passenger mix has changed across airports due to economic challenges, if you compare that to pre-pandemic passenger mixes. High ticket prices and the closed airspace above Russia led to a slowdown, a slow return of Asian passengers, which, in combination with the operating expenses base, led to a significant drop in our EBITDA, turning negative over the period. That concludes my comments on the six different segments.
I'd like to over to hand to Mark, who will give you some insights on the financial aspects, even a little bit further, in further detail.
Yes. Good morning. Yes, I will now talk you through our financial developments. As indicated previously by Peter, our overall turnover increased by 7.6% and amounted to EUR 1.057 billion. Gross profit increased by 13.5%. As a percentage on turnover, reported gross profit was 14.9% as compared to 14.2%, half year 2022. The gross profit was impacted by provisions for doubtful debtors in our Liquor segment, amounting to EUR 3.6 million. These relate to three separate cases, for which the common denominator concerns the fact that deviations were made from the regular procedures and controls. Correspondingly, procedures and controls measures have been strengthened to mitigate these risks. Two of the three cases have been provided in full, and for the third case, an exposure of EUR 1.3 million remains.
Please note that, as you will remember, unfortunately, also during the first half of last year, we had to take an initial provision of EUR 7.1 million of the total EUR 12.6 million provision stemming from the business partnership we ended in the Middle East. In order to better understand and follow the underlying trends, we have normalized for the impact of these provisions in the normalized columns. As such, it can be noted that the normalized gross profit margin increased from 14.9% last year to 15.3% for the first half of 2023. Operating expenses increased from EUR 98 million over half year 2022 to EUR 115.5 million over the first six months of this year. The increase occurred across all categories.
We continued to grow our workforce, also as a result of the acquisition of Europe Beauty Group last year, as you remember, May last year. The opening of new logistics center in the U.S. and the newly opened airport shops in our Retail segment. This, in combination with the aforementioned inflation and the tight labor market, led to an increase of 16.7% in staff costs. During the first six of the six months of the year, we needed to absorb one-off advisory and review costs amounting to approximately EUR 2 million with regard to the reported governance matters. Excluding these, the other operating expenses increased by EUR 4 million or 13%. We've normalized these within the operating expenses to show the underlying EBITDA trend.
As indicated in the normalized column, the normalized EBITDA amounted to EUR 47.8 million as compared to the reported EBITDA of EUR 42.2 million. Depreciation of tangible fixed assets and amortization of intangible fixed assets amounted to EUR 18.1 million. The financial expenses increased by EUR 3.7 million to EUR 7 million in total as a result of the increased interest rates. This resulted in a profit before tax of EUR 17.1 million, as compared to EUR 21.5 million during the same period last year, a decrease of EUR 4.4 million. Let me show you the elements that together led to the turnover increase for half year 2023, hitting the EUR 1 billion turnover mark within the first six months. The overall turnover increase, as indicated previously, 7.6%.
From the turnover growth, 6.1% or EUR 59.7 million was realized organically. The growth realized over the first half of the year was mainly achieved in the first quarter, as Peter also previously indicated. While the growth rate decreased significantly over the second quarter on the back of more challenging circumstances. The Euro-US dollar exchange rate had a positive impact of EUR 6.7 million or contribution of 0.7%. Zooming in some more on the turnover development of Q2. As indicated, turnover growth during the second quarter was limited when turnover increased by 0.3%. This was mainly due to the challenging market circumstances. With reference to our Q1 trading update, when we talked about inflation and corresponding impact, it will not have gone unnoticed that these factors are very persistent, impacting consumer behavior.
Over the second quarter alone, FX had a negative impact of EUR 4 million or 0.8% on turnover. All in all, turnover for Q2 amounted to EUR 531.6 million. That brings me to our financial position. Solvency ratio stood at 27.1%, mainly as a result of the movement in the deferred payments for minorities. Our net debt decreased as compared to the same period last year, down from EUR 440 million to EUR 349 million, as per June 30th this year. Net debt EBITDA stood at 3.8, or when calculated in line with the definition of our banking covenants, at 3.6, which is within our covenant of 4.
Interest coverage ratio, being the last twelve month earnings before interest and taxes, divided by the LTM interest expense, stood at 4.3, or when calculated in line with the definition of our banking covenant at 4.7, which is both within a covenant of a minimum of 4. Inventory rotation improved from 95 days in 2022 to 87 days in 2023. For the return on invested working capital, again, it makes sense to look at our normalized return, which stands at 21% compared to the 22.8% over 2022. That brings me to the net debt development. Now, let me briefly elaborate on the bridge of EUR 46, first six months of the year. Looking at year-end 2022, net debt stood at EUR 335 million. Operating cash flow had a negligible impact on debt, in contradiction to prior year.
Investing activities in fixed assets, mainly related to new stores in the Retail segment, as well as improvement of our warehouses, increased net debt by EUR 9.1 million. Lease changes and dividend paid to minority shareholders completed the limited movement in net debt during the first half of 2023. Briefly turning back at our working capital. Inventory stood again at EUR 456 million as per June 30th, with inventory in days decreasing. Trade receivables decreased from EUR 205 million to EUR 175 million, decreasing average Days Sales Outstanding from 37 to 28 days. Altogether, working capital decreased to EUR 467.7 million. That ends my part of the presentation, and I will now hand it over back to Peter, who will take you through our outlook before we will take your questions.
Talking about our outlook, as we, we expect that consumer buying behavior will remain impacted by inflation, just as it was in the second quarter. Despite this, we will continue our top line growth, albeit a less steep level compared to the first half year, and we do expect to be able to realize slight margin improvements. This growth will be realized organically, and we do not expect to realize any large acquisitions for the remainder of this year. To mitigate the more challenging circumstances that we are currently experiencing, we'll retain our strict cost control and aim to keep our operating expenses under control, so to say. Considering all of this, the effect of the margin and cost aspects, we expect the reported EBITDA for this year to be around 5%.
As I started, this call, I'd like to mention, that we intend to share our updated strategy with you on November the 21st. Before that, on November the 6th, we will publish our third quarter trading update. With that, we conclude our presentation on the first half year 2023 results. I would now like to open the call for questions and hand over to the operator.
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Again, press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. We'll now take our first question from Tijs Hollestelle, at ING. Your line is open. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks, Laura. Morning, gentlemen. Yeah, my first question is about, yeah, the loss provisions, as you can imagine. Yeah, the, earlier this year, of course, the extensive review into the business was being finished and mainly focused, of course, on the governance practices within B&S, but I assume that you also did a, let's say, a full review of these kind of risks. The question is, what is the likelihood going forward that more of these doubtful debtor contracts pop up? Are you, let's say, taking actions once it is, let's say, becoming clear that these debtors are not paying, so that you're basically waiting for the legal payment term to have end?
Are you more proactively looking at more contracts within B&S, in which, let's say, the risks are quite high. If you could provide me a bit of information on how you view and deal with these contracts within B&S, it would be helpful.
Yeah, sure. Let's take that one first. Looking at the full year, announcement regarding the governance review, which we, we applied, clearly, regards other topics than the provision for doubtful debtors standalone. Looking at the risks which now occurred, the common denominator, as, as indicated, for these three cases, concerns the fact that the internal procedures have not been followed. Having said that, of course, that measures have been taken to prevent this from reoccurrence.
Okay.
With regard to your question, the proactive approach, yes, we, we, we clearly, always, view our portfolio and review our portfolio on ongoing basis. Once these type of risks pop up, then we will clearly, directly and proactively take action, and not wait until the legal last day, as you, you indicated in your, in your question.
If I understand correctly, it is, let's say, a cultural awareness in the salesforce team of B&S?
I would say a little bit broader than that. Also, the salesforce there, definitely, but the whole internal procedures need to be followed and adhered to strictly in order to prevent ourselves for these type of risks. We have very clear policies on how to mitigate these risks. Of course, we will only be able to mitigate those risks, if those type of procedures are being fully adhered to. That's what we have implied.
Okay, yeah.
To just to add on this. The governance review was focused on the related party issues that became transparent in the beginning of this year and last year. I, I feel that that is, that is executed very well, and that risk has been. Well, risks are never eliminated, as we all know in life, but are, are, are strongly mitigated through that through that review that has taken place. That's one. Secondly, it's the. I'd just like to reiterate what Mark just said, it's the internal controls that are in place and the discipline internally to follow those rules. That is something that we have definitely strength, we've strengthened our internal communication around that topic.
Now, obviously, we're not gonna say that. We can't tell you that there will never go anything wrong, anymore. That's impossible. We are working towards risk, risk mitigation in this regard.
Yeah, okay. That, that is helpful. Then just to be, for my understanding, I mean, it, it, it, it could be that, let's say, prior to when you were running the company, some of these uncollectible receivables are still standing out. Is that the case, or have, let's say, all these kind of sales deals from the past have now been resolved?
This is the risk we have now emerged, and as you can also see from the, the outstanding debtor, amount and the aging, that most of the items from the past have now emerged.
Okay. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Another question about the Personal Care segment. Quite strong improvement, not only in the top line, but also in profitability. In the press release, you gave some explanation for that, the variety of in-stock items, including private labels. Could you provide us a bit more insight in how that is exactly, let's say, driving the results, eh? Because it's indeed quite strong, and also if you would give us a bit of a feel for how that is going to develop in the second half, that would also be helpful.
First of all, regarding the assortment, that's something they build on for quite some time now. The deviation between regular assortment, private label, and the private label brand has been built over the years and has increasingly become stronger. This is what you now also see in the results, having those products available, as well as the product mix, enhancing the realized gross profit. Having said that, looking at the sustainable growth of the segment, those building blocks, of course, are very, I would say, long-lasting, so we expect that to continue at least in the short, in short term, definitely, and expect it also for the medium term.
Okay. part of it is-
Was that your question?
Yeah, it is. Part of it is also because you addressed some issues, it's kind of a strategic change, and then follow up to that, because you're relatively new to the company or just started being the management. I assume that you then, let's say, address the low-hanging fruit, so to say, yeah, the easy things first. Do you see, let's say, additional opportunities for improvement in any of the other business segments, which you will address going forward?
Yeah, that's a, that's a super good question. We'll definitely explain bits and pieces of that on, on November the 21st. In general, in general, yes, I do believe that there's opportunity for growth, as well as margin improvements, especially in the travel Retail business, Liquor business, although that's partly also definitely market circumstances that we can't influence, obviously, that much.
Yeah.
I, I, I do believe that Beauty, with a very nice mix of activities across the globe, working in different market segments, is also an interesting segment in terms of, in terms of, performance into the future. Food is, Food is, is stabilized, is in control, the way I view it. On the back of what they currently have, growth should be possible. Health is, is a bit of a thinner market, I would say. As a result, also more... Well, let me phrase this differently. There are still things to do, in terms of, the segment.
We believe that the segments would further benefit from independency to a certain extent, because, because the, these are different segments in different markets, as I said in my introduction, as well as working across different segments.
Okay.
Still a lot to do.
Yeah. Okay, that's, that's promising. Yeah, maybe one follow-up for now, we give someone else the opportunity to ask questions. I also read, I think in the Food business, that there was an, recovery of the maritime market, and specifically in the cruise vessels. I, I was under the impression that, after it went to zero in the pandemic, that B&S stepped out of this, of this niche completely, but it seems that you're back in.
Yeah, definitely, definitely. Well, there was not so much to be ... I don't know whether we were completely out, but if there are no cruises, it's difficult to sell Food to, to cruise vessels. We're, we're definitely back, and actually, yeah, they are in a very, in a very upbeat season, actually.
You might, you might indicate the Retail cruise business ties. That's where we, we, we stepped out completely during the pandemic.
Yeah, that is probably it. Okay, yeah. Okay, thank you for now.
Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question from Patrick Roquas at Kepler Cheuvreux. Your line is open. Please go ahead.
Good morning. Thank you for taking my questions. My name is Patrick Roquas. A couple of questions, and probably best if I, if I ask them all together, all at, all at once. The first one is on organic sales growth, and given the inflationary environment, is it possible to kind of roughly break down organic sales growth in volume and price? On the outlook, which you've guided for a reported EBITDA margin of around 5%, why are you not guiding for underlying EBITDA, or, let's say, an underlying absolute EBITDA number? You've kind of collected consensus, but did not share it with us. What I've seen on Bloomberg is consensus at around EUR 105 million. How do you consider this with regard to your guidance? That, that's the second question.
Then on Liquor. Yeah, I've heard your explanation, but it would be helpful if you provide a bit more background and information. What happened, what explains the big decline in Liquor? Is it a combination of a big volume decline and pricing pressure? Then finally, on the updated strategy, which you're gonna give us in November. You highlight focus on operational excellence, but what is new here, as I think this kind of has been and will be a key focus or element of your business? Thank you.
Okay, let's start with the first one regarding organic sales growth, regarding the breakdown of volume and price. As previously, we do not have, and/or, as, as such, not able to, to share that at this stage on the, on the volume and the, and the price component, as we haven't done in the past as well, unfortunately. Regarding your second question, regarding the outlook of the reported EBITDA margin and not sharing a turnover consensus. The, the consensus, of course, will be shared. We were gathering the information and completed that quite late in the process, as such, could not be shared previously. Based thereon, I would say that, that, all the information would be there, but more than happy to, to discuss in more detail, what... With this regard.
Then the Liquor segment, decline, as you state, what we try to indicate is the two market circumstances which we see there, is first and foremost, the decline in consumer demand, decreasing the demand for the products we have, combined with the fact that there's more product availability as compared to previous periods. Those two factors combined also provide the margin pressure, which is notable in the segment. With regard to the updated strategy, the fact that operational excellence is being indicated, of course, is one of the components which we will highlight, but of course, a very much broader review will be performed and shared with yourselves. Not sure whether, Peter, you have anything to add on this one?
Well, if, if we would already know what we wanted to say on November the 21st, then we would have already told you today. That's the way, life. Just to give you a little bit of insight, we shouldn't be too difficult. This is my 91st day, I believe, in this company. There's.
I stopped counting.
Yeah, I also, but I, I did some endeavors over the weekend to, to get to a number. I think it's the 91st day. In the last two weeks, a lot of people were on holiday. We will start to review the segments and come to an analysis of future potential in the next in the next two months, and then we'll discuss it obviously with the Supervisory Board, et cetera. That's the reason why we aim for the 21st of November.
All right. Thank you very much for this. Just a quick follow-up. Any, any, any thoughts on, on where Bloomberg consensus is today for, for a full year EBITA?
I don't know. I don't know if somebody else on the call has. I didn't look at Bloomberg.
No. All right. Thanks.
Thank you. Once again, ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question from Robert at ABN AMRO. Your line is open. Please go ahead.
Yes, hi, good morning, thanks for taking my questions. I'll start with a follow-up on Peter's question on the outlook. If you read your outlook statement, modest growth in the second half, and you specifically say to expect a reported EBITDA profitability of around 5%, it sounds to me as if you expect reported EBITDA of around EUR 110 million. Is that a fair assumption? That is my first question. Related to this, that is quite bullish about the second half, yeah? It's EUR 68 million in EBITDA or so. Why is that, and yeah, which segments should particularly drive this, yeah, improvement in the second half? That's my first question. Thank you.
Okay. first, let me briefly highlight that the deviation, the composition, sorry, of the EBITDA between first half and second half of the year, has been, I would say, 40%-60% over the past few years. After the addition of the business to consumer business in the U.S. with FragranceNet, importance of the fourth quarter, and as such, the second half of the year, increased even more. basically, the figures as we've seen last year, when it was more or less, 45-55%-
... share, we, we expect to go back to the 40%-60%, indeed, more or less, in those ranges. With regard to the outlook, we explicitly state that we expect a marginal turnover increase over the second half of the year as compared to the second six months of last year. That covers, I think, the main part of your question. Please help me out, whether.
Oh, I, I think additionally... Just to make this very clear, this is all the 5% or around the 5%, I, I believe we said in the, in the range of 5%, that's the, that's the language we used, for marginally improved revenue levels. Why are we stating this, is just to make clear that the revenue overall is marginally, but the components of that revenue will change. The two segments that, that drive or substantiate that in the range of 5% comment is Beauty and Personal Care. We believe that Personal Care will continue its performance, and we believe that Beauty, the, on the back of the B2C U.S. market, will have a strong Q4. Yeah, that's our best guesstimate with all the know-how that we have today.
All right, that's, that's very clear. I have a few others, if I may.
If you look at the historical EBITDA margins across the segments, and you would exchange Personal Care and Beauty for other segments, then, then, then that's improving your overall performance.
Okay. Thank you. Sorry to come back on the provisions again. I still do it. Although the magnitude is materially less than last year, the whole wording is not too different. I think last year you also spoke about procedures that were not followed, or internal procedures that were not followed. How can you reassure us that things have now really changed? Because we had a... You had a provision in the first half of last year, the second half of last year, albeit in Food, this time, in Liquor, and again, in the first half of 2023. How can you reassure us that, yeah, that this will not become recurring? That, that's my question.
Yeah
... on, on that.
Yeah. Well, let me assure you that we're doing our utmost, that it will not. At the same moment in time, this is business. Last year, if I understand everything well, this was a business partnership. These are just debtor positions that where there are problems with the debtor. The risk is also... This is not an open-ended risk. The EUR 4 million, approximately EUR 4 million, and Mark's gonna correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that these are three positions, of which two of them have been 100% provisions, and one of them, there's still a value in that position of a little bit north of EUR 1 million.
Yeah, EUR 1.3 million, to be precise.
We do believe, and we do believe that, that we are gonna take the right steps to recover that. There's also a plan for it. Whether that all will work out, Robert-Jan, our best, best guesstimate that it will. Is this a risk-free business? Obviously, it's not. I must say that in the past, it seems that there have been, and I'm not talking about 2022, but before 2022, there haven't been that many, that many one-offs, so to say. Yeah, we're working towards an organization, that will, will not have too many one-offs every year. That's true. Am I gonna give you guarantee on that? I would be foolish, wouldn't it? It definitely has our intention. You can.
I can assure you that it has, and we're taking the right steps, I believe.
Okay, that makes sense. Thanks for that. I have two small remaining questions. Retail reported negative EBITDA. You gave some explanation already in the in prepared remarks, the passenger mix. Still, the revenue increase was still quite strong, so personally, I would have expected a bit more positive operating leverage. But, yeah, you explained that. What can we expect for the remainder of the year in this division? Do you expect it to be EBITDA positive? That's my first small and remaining question. The second one, last one, sorry to be very long, but, can you help us estimate what the dividend to minority to non-controlling interests will be going forward? It's been a bit volatile past few years.
You paid EUR 2.5 million. How can you help us forecasting this going forward? Thank you.
Okay. I will, I will, I will take the first question, Mark will take the second question. Life is easy, if I Mark is taking the difficult ones. No, Retail is, is in, is, is also in terms of performance, an interesting segment for Robert-Jan. Although overall for the business, not extremely important, but nonetheless. In the past, the travel Retail has, has seen performances of EUR 10 million EBITDA levels, right? Now, whether the mar- whether the world will turn to normal in terms of traveling, that's a bit of a mixed bag if you look at everybody in the world.
It is true that it's, that, that, that people expect the Chinese and the Asian travelers to come back, who are spending a lot on airports in general, so that's a positive. The business travelers are coming back, but still, still not on the level of 2019, I believe. That, that's one comment. Another comment which may not be... Which is made in the comments, is the fact that the increase in revenue is for a large part, due to new stores. New stores also have a time, they, they also need a certain amount of time to get up and running, actually. That effect, that effect is also in the numbers, if you look at it.
Secondly, the numbers are also influenced by renegotiating, renegotiating concessions and agreements, across, across, the different stores we have. Those are the things that will impact. If we look at. I mean, we're not giving, we're not giving, forecast per segment, but it wouldn't surprise me if, if negative turns to positive in the second half year.
Okay. we-
Yeah.
Okay. Finally, your question on the dividend, to minorities, Robert-Jan. That will clearly, as dividend to minorities as well as dividends, in general, will be depending on both the performance of those segments or those individual companies, I must, I must state, as well as the investment planning for those, for those companies. We'll get back to you on this in more detail, also in the November 21st strategy update, where we also have a clearer path on the investment parts of those segments and those, those companies. Would that answer your question, sir Robert-Jan?
Yeah, that's fine. Thank you.
Thank you. We'll now have a follow-up question from Tijs at ING. Your line is open. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, on the, on the remarks about the Bloomberg consensus, the Bloomberg consensus aiming for 105, it includes three estimates, ING is at 100, and the high in the consensus is 110. I think that Patrick and Robert-Jan can figure it out, knowing your own estimates. Yeah, that's, that's an easy one. I, I myself, was late in handing in the consensus estimates to B&S, I apologize for that, Patrick, because it was just in time for the morning meeting on Saturday, I would say. Next time I will be on time. Yeah, that is the background. I had a follow-up question on the net interest expenses. It increased, I think to EUR 7 million.
Is that completely, let's say, interest charges on gross debt and leases, or were there also some other financial costs with a kind of more one-off nature in it?
No, the interest on the bank debt, so to speak, is approximately 90%-95% of the amount, and with the remainder being the interest charge included in the lease liabilities, and some other minor, minor individual amounts.
Yeah. Yeah, this is a good number as a proxy going into the second half of the year, I guess.
Exactly.
Yeah. Okay. Also what I had... Oh, yeah, maybe I missed it, or, but the, EUR 2 million advisory costs, are they, let's say, allocated, spread equally over the divisions, or are they in the holding cost line item?
That's mainly in the, in the holding, line item, indeed.
There's a normalization in the second half for that number? It's fair to assume?
Correct.
Yes.
Yeah. Okay. Then one final. You mentioned the EUR 1.3 million outstanding on the on the provisions. Is there, let's say, a timing? Is there an agenda, so that you know that there is, let's say, a settlement coming on this for the third quarter, for the fourth quarter?
Not so sure.
No, I would say before the year end, anyhow.
Okay. Yeah. Okay, thank you very much.
We have no further questions in queue currently. As a final reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. I don't see any further questions in queue. I will now hand it back to Peter for closing remarks. Thank you.
Well, thank you all for, for joining the call and, and showing your interest in our company. It was my first call, so everything I did wrong then, I, I do apologize, but, I enjoyed it very much, and, I'm really looking forward to the trading update in the beginning of November, but definitely, hopefully, meeting you all personally on the 21st of November. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. Continue to stay safe. You may now disconnect.