Good morning, everybody, on this webcast, and welcome to Kendrion's Q2 and First Half 2024 Results Presentation. My name is Joep van Beurden, Kendrion's CEO, and with me here is Jeroen Hemmen, our CFO. First, this morning's agenda. Jeroen will start and review the Q2 and first half of 2024 results, after which I will take over and talk a bit about the current economic climate and give you an update of the progress we have made, both strategically and operationally over the past period. Next, I will discuss the outlook for the remainder of the year and go to Q&A.
Before handing over to Jeroen, I would like to draw your attention to the following: Certain statements contained in this presentation constitute forward-looking statements, and these forward-looking statements rely on several assumptions concerning future events and are subject to uncertainties and other factors, many of which are outside the company's control, that could cause actual results to differ materially from such statements. Jeroen?
Yeah. Thank you, Joep, and good morning, everybody. So in line with IFRS 5, we will present, we have presented and we will present the results of the discontinued operations separately from the continuing operations. The discontinued operations include the European and American Automotive activity, activities that are carved out for the sale to Solero Technologies, and as well, the discontinued portion of the Sound Automotive R&D activities. So our continued operations revenue decreased by 7% in Q2 and 8% in the first six months, as the German and Chinese end markets, in particular in Industrial Brakes, continue to be weak. The continued Automotive activities increased 4% in Q2 and 18% in the first six months, benefiting from the ramp-up of new projects in China.
The lower volumes in the Industrial Business Groups are partially offset by a 6% or almost EUR 4 million reduction in operating costs in the first six months. The normalized continued EBITDA was 13.5% in the first six months, down from the 14.7% realized last year, but significantly better than last year's total group margin of 10.9%. Please note that the results of the continued operations do not yet fully reflect anticipated cost reductions following the right sizing of the corporate cost after the sale to Solero. Then, to the total group results, both including continued and discontinued operations to provide a comparison to the prior year reports.
Revenue was down 6% in Q2 and 4% in the first six months, and currency results did not materially impact revenue in the first half either. Despite the lower revenues, the normalized EBITDA was in line with the previous year. An improvement of the added value margin and a 6% reduction in operating costs compensated for the loss in volumes, leading to a 60 basis points expansion of the EBITDA margin. The normalized Q2 results exclude EUR 1.9 million costs incurred outside the ordinary course of business. This is mainly related to the impairment charge and inventory write-offs in relation to the bankruptcy of an Automotive Sound customer. This customer did not materially contribute to the Automotive revenue in 2024 or 2023.
Finance charges decreased by EUR 0.4 million, with more favorable realized and unrealized currency results, more than offsetting the higher market rates. Our tax rate on normalized income was 30%, compared with 24.7% last year. Then moving to the business groups. First, Industrial. Here, the market circumstances, as mentioned in a number of our end markets, continue to be weak, as indicated by manufacturing indices showing contraction in Germany and China, and low orders in the general machine building market. Industrial revenue decreased by 10% when compared to Q2 2023, but the activity levels slightly improved when compared to the previous quarters. IB was down 16% year-on-year, but showed a 7% increase to the first quarter.
In IAC, the weak general machine building market was partially compensated by strong demand in aircraft, control technology, and medical. Lower revenues affected profitability, with normalized EBITDA in the first six months decreasing to EUR 18.2 million, a margin of 14.8%. 7% lower operating costs in industrial and a better added value margin absorbed part of the lower revenues. Moving to Automotive. In anticipation of the sale of the European and American Automotive activities to Solero Technologies, we have terminated the segmentation in Core and in E. The Automotive figures are separated now in continued and discontinued. The continued activities exist of Automotive activities in China and the sound and electronic production in Sibiu, Romania. Automotive revenue decreased by 2% in Q2 as market circumstances weakened compared to the beginning of the year.
Revenue in the first six months increased by 5%, both supported by better volumes and sales price increases. Normalized EBITDA in the first six months improved 84% to EUR 11.8 million. The improved profitability is mainly the result of a better added value margin in combination with stable operating costs. The significant margin improvement is visible in both the continued and the discontinued Automotive operations. As stated earlier, the continued operations already exclude the cost for sound R&D that has been discontinued but does not yet reflect the effects of the optimization of corporate costs following the divestment. Finally, on cash flow and our financial position. Free cash flow in the first six months was breakeven, as cash flow in the first half year is traditionally affected by seasonal effects on working capital.
Free cash flow in the same period last year was negative EUR 12.5 million, of which EUR 6.7 million related to the construction of our new facility in China. Our net debt ended at EUR 149.7 million, slightly up from the EUR 145.7 million at the end of Q1, but EUR 11.2 million lower compared to the same period last year. A EUR 10 million reduction in working capital compared to the first half year of 2023 contributed to the reduction in net debt. Our leverage ratio ended up at 2.8, equal to Q2 2023, and up from 2.7 in Q1, well below our covenant of 3.25.
We will continue our focus on cash flow and the management of working capital in the coming quarters, and we'll realize substantial deleveraging upon closing of the divestment to Solero Technologies. And with that, I give back to you.
Thank you, Jeroen. I will now proceed with an update of strategic and operational progress that we've made so far in 2024. As Jeroen just explained, we had a solid first six months of 2024, particularly considering the ongoing challenging market conditions, and especially in Germany. This resulted in lower revenues for our Industrial Business, partly compensated by growth in Automotive. IB has a particularly tough revenue comparable, but has stabilized. In fact, IB's Q2 revenue was 7% higher than in Q1. We maintained our focus on the added value margin, which improved by 80 basis points, with contributions from both the industrial and Automotive segments, and we also implemented strict control measures, particularly in Industrial Brakes.
All this led to a stable, normalized EBITDA of EUR 30 million for the first half of the year, representing 11.5% of revenue, a slight increase compared to the same period in 2023. For the continued operations, the first half EBITDA was EUR 20.7 million , which is 13.5% of revenue, so two points higher compared to the 11.5% for the group. Our focus on cash flow management remains strong, keeping both net debt and our leverage ratio at steady levels, while also paying out EUR 4.2 million in cash dividends. Before I get into a little bit more detail, let me illustrate the current economic environment. On this slide, we see the sentiment in the main economies of the world, as reported by S&P through March 2024.
An index larger than 50 indicates expanding economic activity, and below 50 signals an expectation of declining activity. And looking at this slide, the global picture is clear. Over the course of 2023, and indeed in the first quarter of 2024, economic activity has slowed considerably. Europe and Japan are well below 50, with China and the U.S. notably better. If you look a bit further, a bit more on this, the Eurozone economy grew by 0.3% in the first half of 2024, indicating a slow recovery after a period of stagnant or even negative growth. For 2024, the full year, the expectation is GDP growth of 0.7%, so essentially unchanged.
The German economy, Europe's biggest, was the weakest among its EU peers last year, and as an export-oriented nation, is expected to continue to be affected amid a slow recovery in global demand. Earlier this year, China announced an ambitious goal of reaching 5% economic growth in 2024, and based on the first half of the year, economists and government officials say they are optimistic that China can reach this goal. Exports, however, are still low and the risk of deflation looms. The U.S. is doing better, as it likely picked up in the second quarter, spurred by solid consumer spending, and is now forecasted to grow with 2.6%, 6% in 2024. This pace of expansion leaves expectations of a September interest cut from the Federal Reserve intact.
So the trading conditions that we experienced since Q2 2023 are expected to be unchanged in H2 2024, and I will come back to this when we discuss the outlook for the second half. We are making good progress in carving out our European and U.S. Automotive business for the sale to Solero Technologies. As we all know, the Automotive industry is in a major transition. To make full use of the opportunity that this transition presents, requires substantial investments in R&D and in production equipment. The level of investment needed makes it more difficult for an Automotive Tier One/Two of Kendrion scale to make a play in all the opportunities on offer, limiting the growth potential that's available in the U.S. and Europe.
Over the past years, we have found ourselves more and more in a position that we had to choose: Do we invest in a specific Automotive opportunity, or do we instead allocate the funds and the resources to industrial?... By staying active in both Automotive and industrial, we run the risk of being subscale in both, and we therefore made the strategic decision to transform Kendrion into a pure industrial company. With this, we can make better use of the growth opportunities in brakes and in actuators and controls, and we substantially improve the group's EBITDA margin profile. And this is visible in our first half results. Despite the relatively slow trading in industrial and the healthy demand in Automotive, the EBITDA percentage of the continued operation is two points better than that of the group.
Based on the full year 2023 pro forma figures, the transaction is accretive for both the EBITDA margin and earnings per share. Finally, the proceeds of the transaction allow us to deleverage our balance sheet to more comfortable levels of debt, and this also gives us additional opportunities for M&A. Before I get into more detail on the transaction itself, let's have a look at the revenue mix impact. Looking at this foil, on the left, the makeup of Kendrion's current revenue, pretty much 50/50 between Automotive and industrial. In the announced transaction, we divest around 80% of the Automotive revenue, so 40% of group revenue to Solero. We retain suspension for electric vehicles in China and Automotive Sound and Electronics in Europe.
This is to be integrated in IAC, where it will be run just like all other segments where IAC is active, with a heavy focus on profitability and cash generation. Post-transaction, Kendrion will be a pure-play industrial group with around 42% of revenue in Industrial Brakes and 48% in Industrial Actuators and Controls. We anticipate closing the transaction by the end of Q3 2024 and expect that the divestment will enhance our ability to invest in substantial opportunities within the industrial sector, driving sustained and profitable growth. During our Capital Markets Day on September 5, 2024, we will deliver an update on the new post-Automotive Kendrion, share progress towards the 2025 financial targets, and announce new financial goals. Let me now share some of the highlights of the past half year, starting with IB.
As you heard from Jeroen, first half 2024 revenue for IB was down 22% as the market slowdown from H2 2023 continued, but with a bit of recovery in Q2. Several major market segments have stabilized but are trading on a lower level, notably industrial robots, general machinery automation, and wind energy. Demand from key customers is stable, and we believe that our strong market position is intact. Several cost control measures have been implemented and will continue to be enforced to protect profitability and cash generation. We are running a successful business development campaign together with IAC, targeting the Automated Guided Vehicle, or AGV market. And in the U.S., our high-precision brakes have been designed into medical operation robots. The widespread shift to new product categories in warehouse automation, medical solution, and collaborative robots, or so-called cobots, also create opportunities.
So a stabilized trading environment for IB in the first half, and with continued opportunity for more growth and more profit down the road. Next, IAC. IAC's first half 2024 revenues were down 3%, which was in line with our expectations. Some market segments are strong: aircraft products, electrical distribution, beverage dispensing valves, laser shutters, and our new and innovative inductive heating systems. Other markets are stable, but on a lower level than a year ago, for instance, textile machinery and automation for general machinery. We continue to operate at healthy added value margins as we successfully pass on our raw material price increases. In terms of business development, projects for dialysis devices and for appliances like industrial washing machines have entered the implementation phase for start of production in 2025.
Our IAC opportunity pipeline is bigger than ever, with continued interest in new products such as industrial locks, inductive heating, and valve products. Which brings me to China. Despite weakness in the market for Industrial Brakes, our revenues in China were up 4%, and our EBITDA doubled compared with the first half of 2023. Our Automotive revenue almost tripled as some of our new projects started to ramp up, and we have good traction in IAC on both existing customers and new market development. This resulted in 20% more revenue. The market for Industrial Brakes, which is the largest segment of our China franchise, has started to show a gradual recovery in both robotics and wind power markets, although we are still below the revenue levels of 2023. Of course, we are pursuing new business development opportunities for our factory in Suzhou.
In IB, a brake for electronic power, for electronic power door for electric vehicles, and in IAC, several opportunities for the medical market and for smart actuators for electric vehicle suspension systems. Which brings me to the outlook. Looking ahead to the second half of 2024, we expect a similar economic climate as in the first half, with a stable U.S. economy, a slow trading environment in Europe, and economic activity in China that is higher than both the U.S. and Europe, but still lower than historical levels. For the longer term, we are confident that as a pure-play industrial company, we can leverage significant organic growth opportunities, driven by the global transition towards cleaner energy sources and other opportunities.
We will share the areas where we see significant opportunities for profitable growth and the medium to long-term financial targets for the new Kendrion at our Capital Markets Day on September 5th, of this year, in two weeks. You're all cordially invited, and with that, let's go to Q&A.
Thank you, dear participants. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question over the phone, please press star one one on your telephone keypad and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw a question, please press star one one again. Alternatively, you can submit your questions via the webcast. Please stand by, we'll compile the Q&A roster. This will take a few moments. And now we're going to take our first question, and it comes from the line of Martijn den Drijver from ABN AMRO. Your line is open. Please ask your question.
Yes, thank you, operator. Good morning, gentlemen.
Good morning, Martijn.
Good morning. I have three questions. I'll do them one by one, if I may. Earlier in the year, your expectation was roughly that you would expect to see some improvement during this summer. If I understand your outlook statement correct, that is not no longer the case. So my first question is: What has changed? And maybe can you talk about that in terms of IB, IAC, and Automotive, please?
Sure. Well, what has changed is not all that much. There was indeed an expectation. This is all related to the potential interest reductions that the Fed has been talking about now for a long time. I think based on the most recent news of the past weeks, we're still in a position that may happen in September, October, and that will definitely help. So it's shifted out a little bit, but even these interest changes will of course take some time to ripple through. So without putting too fine a point on it, we're believing that, you know, we see a bit of recovery in IB. We call it stable. It's actually in Q2, as you heard me and Jeroen talk about a bit better, 7% more revenue in IB.
IAC has been stable all along and in Automotive, but it's also, of course, related to the comparables, we've also seen good growth in the first half. We think that overall, that economic situation is going to prevail with still the hope and the expectation of some improvement as the year draws on.
Okay. And just coming back to that last statement, some improvement. Can you talk a little bit about order intake or the sales funnel? Is that supportive of that idea of that statement, or is that more of an expectation and it's not really yet visible in order intake or the sales funnel?
No, it's a bit... It's, it's a little bit better. Specifically, I think in IAC, the order book looks pretty good. IB, clearly it's, it's stabilized also. There was a lot of destocking going on, you know, certainly in 2023, and to some extent, also in Q1 of this year. That's definitely come to an end. We see a bit of light at the end of the tunnel also there in China, as I mentioned in my prepared remarks. But, you know, again, I don't want to put too fine a point on it. It, it's, it's stable. It's certainly not gonna get worse than our expectation and perhaps a touch better as the year continues.
Clear. Then my second question is for Jeroen on working capital. Can you describe a little bit what your thinking is for the second half of the year for working capital? Basically, going through all three categories, if you could.
Yeah. So yeah, as I mentioned in my opening statement, so compared to last year, we made a big improvement, but obviously also in line with the lower activity level. I expect in the second half year, no major change, outside the sale of Automotive. Obviously, that will have an impact, but no major change, with the exception that, towards year-end, as always, you see that, receivables and also inventory, will come down significantly. The effect will be a little bit less. Normally, that effect is EUR 15 million , roughly. You can count now half of that because of the sale of Automotive. Other than that, I don't expect any major trends on working capital.
Okay, clear. Then I had one smaller question. I was just looking at the report from Q1 to Q2. And if you look at raw material and contracts at work, that went up by EUR 2.4 million, which is almost exactly in line with the increase in sales from Q1 to Q2. So I was just wondering if you could elaborate a little bit on why you've seen such a significant increase in raw material and contracted work?
Yeah. Actually, there are also no real structural. It has to do with the sales mix. And in particular, because of the stronger Automotive, in that perspective, it does not help because Automotive has a lower added value margin, a higher material charge than industrial. It's basically, yeah, an outcome of the sales mix. There is no purchase price increases or sales price decreases underlying that impact. And so, yeah, the added value margin changes from quarter to quarter based on the sales mix, and it was, yeah, different than Q1.
Okay, thank you. And I'll squeeze in a fourth one if I may, and then I'll move back into queue. Can you talk a little bit about your Chinese contracts that were ramping up? How is that? You've mentioned that revenue would triple, basically, if I understand your statements correctly. But, are they ramping up as you expected, or is there a bit of a deviation relative to your expectations in Q1 or at the end of 2023?
No, I mean, the expected ramp, of course, as you can well imagine, has a range. We have quite a few programs that are starting. So, you know, if they're all starting exactly on schedule and towards the higher end of that range, of course, it would be much better than expected. And, you know, the other extreme, so we're sort of smack in the middle of that. They are ramping. Some are doing a bit better, others are a bit slower, some are a little bit delayed, others are being pulled in. So I would say, it's straight down the middle, in line with what we expected.
Okay, great. Thanks. That's it from my side.
Thank you.
Thank you. Now, we're going to take our next question. Just give us a moment, and the next question comes from the line of Tim Ramskill from Credit Suisse. Your line is open. Please ask your question.
Yes, hi. Thanks for taking my question, everyone. First one, with regards to margins in industrial and Automotive, could you maybe add some color there, how the margins developed? Because you didn't mention it in your press release. That would be very helpful. Thanks.
You, you mean, Tim, Added Value Margin or, or?
No, sorry. I mean, you can also talk about the added value margin, but I was more thinking about the EBITDA, but gross margin is also helpful to get some insights.
Yeah. So on the EBITDA margins in industrial, the first half year, 14.8%, I think it was, in the presentation, compared to 16.5% last year, with better added value margin and also a much lower cost structure, partially compensating the loss of revenue, particularly in IB. In Automotive, the EBITDA margin almost doubled from 4.8%, obviously quite a low level last year, to 8.5% here. There's no huge deviation between Q1 and Q2. Yeah, so we don't disclose quarterly numbers there. Those are, I think you've already mentioned, Q2 largely resembles Q1, and that is also from a margin perspective, the situation.
And also, Tim, maybe if I may, if you look and we are extremely busy at Kendrion preparing for the closing of the transaction with Solero. As you can well imagine, which we expect the end of Q3. And as I also mentioned, if you look now at the difference in margin between continued and the group- which group, of course, includes everything that we've also sold. Even in a world today, where cyclically, I would say in industrial, there's a bit of headwind and in Automotive, there's a bit of tailwind, you can still see that EBITDA percentage margin of two full points. So the whole premise behind this focused new Kendrion on industrial is that so from a profitability perspective, it's going to be quite interesting.
Yeah. Okay, thanks for that, then maybe a follow-up question to that answer, so you still have the short-term labor in place, I assume?
Yeah. So it has been tailored down, also because, yeah, we can also replace it partially by people leaving and not replacing. And to some extent, revenue has come up a bit compared to Q1, so that of course impacts it. So it's still there, but on a significantly lower level than it was. But the cost effect is basically the same.
Okay, great.
So we still have that flexibility tool is basically. It's basically a knob that we can turn the dial up or dial down.
Yeah.
We're still doing that. But fortunately, of course, the hope is that, you know, before long, we don't need it anymore because that would signify healthier levels of activity.
Yeah, clear, and then one last question before we move back to the queue. Automotive, you mentioned that you've seen a sales decline year-on-year in Q2. I mean- In H1, it's a sales increase. Could you maybe talk a bit about the reasons behind that sales decline? Is it because of pricing has come, or up pricing has come to an end? Or is it because you're fading out the Automotive activity that you're not continuing anymore?
No.
What are the drivers behind that?
Yeah, it's well, first is to point out that Q2 last year was very strong on Automotive. So there is a- comparable effect there. I would say generically, if you look at the first half, you can see that it's still quite a bit better than it was a year ago. Having said that, but this is also the effect of the summer, specifically in Europe. Q2 is always a little bit weaker than Q1, and we saw that as well, but the delta that you see, you know, I think it was 12% growth in Q1-
Yeah
... and then a bit lower in Q2 is more to do with the comparables of last year.
Okay, clear, and the Automotive operations that you keep within Kendrion, they grew in Q2 as well, I assume, if I look at the-
Yeah, they-
H1 improvement.
Yeah. They grew, yeah, slightly with 4%.
Okay, great. That was it for me. Thanks a lot.
Thank you, Tim.
Thank you. Dear participants, as a reminder, if you wish to ask a question over the phone, please press star one one on your telephone keypad. And now I'm going to take our next question. And the question comes from line of Thijs Hoste from ING. Your line is open, please ask your question.
Yeah, thanks, operator. Can you hear me?
Yes, Thijs, we can.
Okay. I'm calling in with the fixed lines, a bit old-fashioned.
Okay.
Okay. Yeah, I had a question about the CapEx. Maybe I made a mistake early in the year, but I thought the CapEx levels would be much, much lower this year. So can you explain what did you invest in the first half, and what can we expect for the second half? That's the first question. Let's do them one by one, by the way.
Okay. So yeah, I do think so. The guidance given in the past quarters was always also for, let's say, the short term and the mid-term, that we would expect after the hump of the CapEx related to China, that we would go back to CapEx around depreciation, and I would say this is also where we are. Investments in industrial were below depreciation. In Automotive, a little bit above depreciation. Those are basically production lines, some capitalized R&D. Yeah, nothing out of the ordinary. In industrial, it's mainly maintenance investments being used for multiple products.
In Automotive, it's mainly production lines for new projects, both in the continuing and in the discontinued operations. But it's around depreciation, and that's in line with the expectation.
Depreciation.
Sorry?
Yeah, so going forward, in line with depreciation is kind of-
Yeah
... the number we
Yeah
... have to stick to. Okay.
Yeah.
And then, it's a bit nitty-gritty, but yeah, can you only speak on, of course, rather small on the continued business. The cash interest payments are relatively high. Is that a reflection of the higher, let's say, three Q and four Q interest payments? Is there kind of a delay in those payments?
To be honest, I've not really looked into the cash. So the interest charges are, they are down, but that is a combination of higher actual interest rates paid, because the market rates has gone up. So that also leads. Of course, you need to pay them, and so that leads to higher cash interest rate payments. That is in the P&L, offset by more favorable currency results, but that does not automatically lead to more cash. So it's mainly a reflection of that distinction. So the P&L costs come down, but the part that we actually have to pay came up.
Okay. I think results is the explanation. And in the tax line, is there anything going on in that, in the first half?
No.
Also, can we expect something for the second half?
No. So I think a fair, let's say, tax rate, considering the jurisdictions where we are, always depends on where you generate profit. Transfer pricing fluctuations can play a role, but 25%, I think, is fair. We were there last year. We are now at 30%. That is basically because of a big dividend payment from Austria that is largely exempted. The participation is largely exempted from tax, but in Germany, it's not 100% exempted, so that leads to a bit of tax, and that is the reason why it was now somewhat higher than the 25%. In the long run, 25% is, I think, a fair reflection of what the tax rate should be.
Okay, and it also streams then with a kind of a delay into the cash flow on a quarterly basis?
Yeah. Yeah, because there, of course, if you have deferred tax assets, then you don't pay any tax at all. So, the tax payable and the tax charged in income statements, they are extremely volatile. The payable, because that really depends on whether you can utilize deferred tax assets, when the prepayments are due and things like that.
Okay, yeah. The reason I'm asking about this nitty-gritty, I had an investor on the phone this morning who was not a shareholder looking at Kendrion, and then we were discussing, let's say, the third quarter and the fourth quarter of the continued business. And, yeah, I was a bit bragging about my model. I'm in Excel in the column B BQ, so I have quite some history. And then we came to the conclusion that it is rather difficult to make the forecast whether the, let's say, the quarterly EBITDA is gonna arrive at six or it's gonna be, let's say, 10.
So also, having on the back of my mind the pending Capital Markets Day, I think it would be really helpful for the equity story, at least, to have a bit more help on these cost items, eh? So for instance, if I look at the other operating costs going from Q1 to Q2, yeah, from five to 6.4 , now you are such a tiny company, that's quite material. It's a 28% increase. If you would apply this for, on a company like Unilever or Heineken, it would be, let's say, an insane number. So I find it, but maybe it's me, really, really difficult to make these predictions, and it does not help, let's say, pushing the equity story. Because, yeah, if you disappoint, eh, we all know how the share price will react.
So I really hope that Kendrion will try to help us making these line items more predictable. And so it's on employee costs, it is already more easy, but you- Probably see my case, eh? It's very difficult to get a feel for what the EBITDA will be, and we have to make these predictions, so...
Yeah. Okay. All right, we'll... That's, that's good input, Thijs. Thank you. We will, we'll take a look at that and we may follow up with you separately.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. Now we're going to take our next question. The question comes from the line of Tim Ramskill from Credit Suisse . Your line is open, please ask your question.
Yes, hi. One last one. Regarding your R&D expenses.
Yeah. Well... Oh, hello? Are you still there?
My apologies, I just opened the line. Just give me a second.
Sure.
Hello, hello, hello?
Hi, Tim. Your line is open.
Yeah, you are-
Please, can you repeat your question?
Yes. Okay, thank you. My question was if you already see a decrease in R&D expenses now that you made the decision to divest the Automotive division?
In the overall,
Yeah
... P&L, let's say, including Automotive-
Yeah.
Not yet. So we're working on that. We're in discussions with the work councils and so forth. So basically they are in line with previous years. We did allocate a large chunk of sound R&D already to the discontinued operations. So if you look at the continued operations, that is industrial and the part of Automotive that will be remained, there you see already quite a reduction of the R&D charges. Yeah.
Okay. But it's also fair to assume that the R&D expense will not decrease in line with the amount of revenue that goes out of the company, since you had some synergies in the R&D department for Automotive, industrial, or?
No. So they will go down with more than actually the pro rata revenue, because the part that has been sold and the part that we say goodbye to, which is Automotive sound, really had a significant portion of the R&D spend. So the relative R&D spend will go down. Will go down, and then so as Jeroen said, the R&D intensity of Automotive and specifically of the newer products such as sound, is quite a bit.
Okay. That's also one... another driver of the, what we expect will be, significantly improved profitability.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, clear. Thanks a lot.
Yeah. Can I on Thijs, still, maybe, yeah? Because I was a bit puzzled by. Because I think also if you look to Q1, Q2, at the EBITDA margin is of the continued operation, it's really stable at 13.6, 13.5 for the full half year. And also the cost levels. So we will take this on, of course, to help you out. But I think what is probably an impact, what you're looking at is the normalization. So in Q2, we had EUR 1.9 million costs related to the bankruptcy of a customer. That is all in the other operating expenses, that is truly non-recurring.
So I've never had this in 18 years of Kendrion, basically. So it's real cost, but it's of course nothing, something that will be recurring. So that could have an impact on why you say it's so jumpy, because it typically is not so jumpy, but we will make that insightful in the Capital Markets Day.
Excuse me, Tim, any further questions?
No.
Thank you so much. Dear participants, as a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please press star one one on your telephone keypad. Just give us a moment, and now we have the question from Thijs Hoste, from ING. Your line is open, please ask the question.
Yeah. Thanks, operator. Yeah, thanks for the answer. So you get my point. And so now I'm-
Yeah.
I'm subtracting the 1.9 from the 6.4 for my third quarter estimate.
Yeah
... Or you have to give me a kind of a number.
It's clear, Thijs.
Five, six-
We will address this at the Capital Markets Day.
Yeah, please do so. It would be really helpful, okay?
We will. We will.
Okay. Yeah.
Thank you. Dear speakers, there are no further questions for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Joep van Beurden for any closing remarks.
Okay. Well, I thank you all for your attention, for your questions. If you have any follow-up, you know where to find us. Thank you very much.