Earnings Call: Q3 2020

Oct 28, 2020

Good day, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to KPN's Third Quarter twenty twenty Earnings Conference Call. At this time, all participants are in listen only mode. We will be facilitating a question and answer session towards the end of today's prepared remarks. Please note that this event is being recorded. I would now like to turn the call over to your host today, Mr. Reinhard von Erskopf, Head of Investor Relations. You may begin, sir. Thank you, and good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Thanks for joining us, and welcome to KPN's third quarter twenty twenty results webcast. With me on the call today are Joss Farek, our CEO and Chris Wiecket, our CFO. Before turning to the Q3 presentation, I would like to remind you of the Safe Harbor statement on page two of the slides that also applies to any statements made during this presentation. In particular, today's presentation may include forward looking statements, including the company's expectations with respect to its outlook and ambitions, which were also included in the press release published this morning. All such statements are subject to the Safe Harbor statement. Let's now move to the core of the presentation. I'd like to hand over to our CEO, Joost Farweg. Yes. Thank you, Reinhard, and welcome to our third quarter results presentation. Let me first take you through some of our highlights. First of all, in the quarter, we saw EBITDA growing at 1.3%, and we saw solid free cash flow growth. We also continued to deliver on cost savings, which is reflected in the results. Operationally, there were positive signs in the consumer segment. We saw the postpaid base returning to growth and accelerating inflow of fiber customers fueling stabilizing broadband base. COVID-nineteen continued to impact our revenues, but lower costs partly mitigate the impact on EBITDA level. I'm proud of our employees who continue to service our customers in these challenging times. We execute on our strategy and with a solid set of results, we're now able to give a clear picture of the full year's outlook. Next, I would like to highlight a few key figures. Corrected for a number of divestments, revenues declined by 3.7% year on year. Growth in wholesale was offset by lower revenues from consumer and business. Roughly 0.7% of this decline is related to COVID-nineteen. EBITDA increased 1.3 year on year as the effect of lower revenues was more than offset by good cost control. And free cash flow increased more than 7% year on year to €241,000,000 Chris will give you more details on our financials later in this presentation. Turning to our outlook. In the first nine months, we are on track with the execution of our strategy, while maintaining a robust financial position. We are now able to give a clear picture of our full year outlook. We expect adjusted EBITDA after leases of approximately 2,320,000,000 CapEx at €1,100,000,000 free cash flow of approximately $750,000,000 And to be clear, this free cash flow and CapEx outlook includes all acquisition CapEx as well. We reiterate our dividend commitment and we intend to pay a regular dividend per share of €0.13 over 2020. In the first nine months of the year, we have seen solid progress on each of our strategic pillars. As we generally do every other year, we will host a strategic update to the market in the afternoon of the November 24. On this day, we will provide you with an update of our strategic and financial ambitions for coming years. Fiber is the best in future proof technology, and our organic fiber build increased further in the third quarter, even though this included the summer holidays during which construction capacity is lower. Fiber activations accelerated, providing us solid activation rate of approximately 50% over the twelve months past. And we continue to add new areas where we roll out fiber. We're currently active in 90 areas, and we are reaching completion in six of our 25 largest cities. Fiber clearly outperforms copper on all metrics and fuels stabilizing broadband base. Fiber ARPU is higher than copper. The churn is much lower and the NPS is a number of points higher. Consumer fiber revenues grew nearly 8% in the third quarter, driven by a growing base and an uplift in ARPU. Fiber service revenues are bound to exceed copper service revenue declines as our rollout is ramping up further. All in all, we see a positive net present value from our fiber investments. Let's now move to the performance of the segments. Fixed consumer revenues were somewhat lower this quarter, fully driven by a decline of legacy services such as traditional voice and digit tenant. The trend is starting to turn for mobile service revenues, although still declining at 4.4% year on year. This is an improvement compared to the first half of this year. Q3 NPS stood at plus 12. Customer satisfaction is one of our main priorities, so this result is clearly disappointing, and we have a plan in place to restore customer appreciation. This decline has to do with our customers having more questions and need for support now that the majority is working from home, which is putting pressure on our customer service center, a bit an industry trend, and the change in the interface of our IPTV products, leading to questions customers need to get used to the new layout and features. Looking at our consumer KPIs across the third quarter, we can see that the converged base is relatively stable around 50% of broadband customers and more 60% of postpaid customers. The total broadband net adds were in line with last quarter and moving towards a stabilizing retail base. The commercial success of our fiber rollout is reflected in 27,000 new fiber customers, and we're confident that this will contribute to an improving broadband base going forward. And after a long period of decline, the mobile postpaid base returned to growth, and at the same time, we kept the postpaid ARPU stable at EUR70. Travel restrictions due to COVID-nineteen led to lower roaming revenues, and this was partly offset by increased national out of bundle usage. We're happy to see the underlying trend developing favorably with improving inflow ARPU from our unlimited bundles and the effect of repricing wearing out. Now we can move to business segment. Business revenues declined nearly 8% year on largely impacted by COVID-nineteen as we saw lower roaming revenues and delayed IT projects. Also, our strategic customer migrations continue to impact service revenues in the short term. After the migrations, the new propositions provide us significant opportunities for up and cross sell of additional cloud, security and workspace services. As soon as we obtained the new spectrum license, we switched on our five gs network and introduced distinctive five gs services for our B2B customers, as mentioned in this slide. We are currently the only operator in The Netherlands offering five gs value added services and supporting businesses in developing new applications and optimizing their process with five gs. We are making solid progress on the migration of our business customers to the new portfolios. However, the pace was somewhat impacted by COVID as we were often unable to enter the customer's premises. We continue to innovate on our business product portfolio. For KPN1 customers, we now provide a four gs backup facility, ensuring greater business continuity. And we added several cloud communication services, such as Broadcom, Microsoft Teams to our smart combination portfolio, and these are indispensable features for teamwork when working from home. Let's move to wholesale. Correcting for the sale of NLDC, the data centers last year, revenues in wholesale increased by almost 5%, partly supported by the sale of small assets. We added 22,000 broadband lines in our wholesale segment. So looking at our total portfolio of wholesale and retail, we see solid growth of broadband penetration on our network, leading to a total broadband network share of approximately 52% in The Netherlands. We also renewed another long term MVNO contract in the quarter. All in all, another good quarter for our Wholesale division. And we believe that sustainable business is better business. We have reached some important milestones in this respect, and we also have an ambitious agenda for the years to come. Commit ourselves to the three sustainable development goals from the United Nations mentioned in the slides. And during the quarter, we made some nice contributions to these SDGs, as you can see over here. Our efforts in this respect do not go unnoticed and KPN continues to be recognized by various ratings and benchmarks. Now I would like to hand over to Chris to give you more details on our financials. Thank you, Joost. Let me summarize our group financials for the first nine months by explaining like for like performance. The adjusted revenues of KPN declined by 2.9% year on year, partly attributable to COVID-nineteen. The adjusted EBITDA after leases increased 1.5% year on year. Some lower revenues were more than offset by strong cost savings, net net, leading to a positive result. Our EBITDA margin improved 200 basis points year over year to about 45%. And when we compare Q3 of this year to Q3 last year, we see a growing EBITDA. Year to date, free cash flow grew by 13% versus the same period last year. Our operating profit was EUR 150,000,000 lower due to several incidentals like the book gain on the sale of LLDC in 2019. However, excluding these incidentals, operating profit would have increased by EUR 29,000,000 year on year. Similarly, net profit was EUR 144,000,000 lower as it was boosted by the same incident of last year. Excluding these, net profit would have increased by about EUR 31,000,000, mainly driven by lower financing costs. When it comes to control to cost and cost control, we are continuously digitalizing and simplifying our company, leading to improved services and more efficient operations. We are well on track with our cost savings program and realized an additional EUR 44,000,000 savings in the third quarter. Also due to COVID, we see lower costs in areas of travel, learning and development at housing and facilities. In total this year, we've reached about €115,000,000 cost savings. In total, since the beginning of the program, we've saved €256,000,000 and we are confident that we will exceed our €350,000,000 target by the end of the year 2021. We're about 75% of our targets after seven out of 12 quarters have gone by. Operational free cash flow for the first nine months of the year stood at EUR 900,000,000, stable at 23% of revenues. This number was somewhat lower compared to last year, fully driven by different CapEx phasing through the year. In terms of free cash flow, we've seen a strong increase this year. Our free cash flow of nearly EUR 500,000,000 year to date was 30% higher year on year and moved to also 13% of revenues, a high free cash flow margin. This is a result of lower cash restructuring, lower cash interests, some lower investment in working capital year to date and lower cash taxes. We ended the quarter with a strong cash position of about EUR 800,000,000 and expect us to grow further, whilst having paid EUR $381,000,000 as a final spectrum payment and EUR 180,000,000 interim dividend in the quarter. We refinanced the EUR $460,000,000 bond in September. We've committed to being more open about our working capital position, as you can see on this page. Notable effects impacting our working capital position out to date are lower trade receivables, mainly driven by lower sales levels. Trade payables are lower due to specific initiatives. Generally speaking, we see a peak of incoming invoice in December, and we see lower accruals, driven by settlements, lower interest accruals and bonus payments related to 2019. Our working capital program has yielded tangible benefits, being much less of a drag on free cash flow in the first nine months of last year. Actually, in the third quarter, working capital contributed positively to the free cash flow, although year to date, working capital is still a drag on our cash. The prepayment related to spectrum auction is correct at the bottom again, as it is formally a prepayment, but not a working capital item. To be specific, this is the portion of the auction related to the 2,100 megahertz frequency. KPN's total liquidity was strong at the end of the third quarter. It consisted of almost EUR 800,000,000 of cash and EUR 1,250,000,000.00 undrawn revolving credit facility. During the quarter, we issued a €600,000,000 bond at a twelve year tenor with a very low coupon of 0.875. We initiated the issue of €500,000,000 but saw ample demand, and the order book was 4.5x oversubscribed. As said, we also redeemed the €460,000,000 bond that was swapped to a fixed rate of just over 1%, lowering cash interest by €5,000,000 next year. In sum, these transactions lower our average cost of debt and increase the maturity profile of our debt book to about six point four years. All in all, KPS liquidity is sufficient, abundant and covers debt maturities for the next three years. In terms of balance sheet, our financial position remains solid. At the end of the quarter, our net debt to EBITDA ratio increased slightly to 2.4x, driven by the spectrum in interim dividend payments, we expect to drop marginally during the rest of the year. Interest cover ratio improved to 9.2 times and the weighted average cost of senior debt was 65 basis points lower than last year. Since we want to be open and transparent, we find it important to continuously improve our disclosure. We've consistently delivered more disclosure on critical items and are on track to fulfill and complete our disclosure agenda for the year. In the strategy update planned for the November, we'll give more insight into the open points: one, the fiber related CapEx by splitting CapEx further into fiber and non fiber and into household steering by consumer, specific on ARPA reporting and thereby complete our disclosure agenda for the year. So then to summary, to close off this short presentation. KPN had a very healthy financial quarter of EBITDA and free cash flow, both up versus last year. We provided a more specific regular full year outlook and are on track to reach it. The encouraging signs in the consumer segment, the mobile market showing improvement dynamics, a strong fiber uptake gradually outweighing a decline in copper base. In B2B, we continue to see revenue headwinds that are progressing with customer migrations and product innovations. In wholesale, we see ongoing success of our fixed and mobile portfolio, indicating a successful open network policy. Ever remain, we maintain a robust balance sheet and saw a decreased position. Finally, we look forward to informing you more on our ambitions for the coming years in about one month from now. Now back to Reinout and to your questions. Thanks, Chris. We can now turn to your questions. As usual, please limit your questions to two each. In case there's still time left, you can always ask more questions later in this Q and A session. Operator, over to you. Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will start the question and answer session now. Our Our first question is from Mr. Michael Bishop of Goldman Sachs. Just two questions from me then, please. Firstly, on the FTTH build, as we think about moving into next year and beyond, could you just give us an update in terms of the discussions with respect to contracting more build capacity in The Netherlands and how they're going and whether you're still thinking the same sort of 500 to 600,000 run rate is something to target in 2021 and beyond? And the second question is on the mobile service revenue. You mentioned that trends were now turning. So how should we think about the mobile service revenue again going into next year as you potentially start to have some easier comps? Thanks very much. Yes, thank you. First on the fiber build, what we did is scaling up our fiber rollout production capacity to a level that we didn't do for a decade or something like that. So a lot has to do with the locking of construction capacity. And that's what we did. Having said that, we're scaling up in a very efficient and solid way. Last year, we did like 100,000 fiber to the home connections. I think this year, we will reach a level of 300. So five to six is a little bit stretched, to be honest, for next year. For me, it's important to scale up in a decent way to a level of 400 or above. And then we're on a scale that we've never done before at KPN. And then we're on a scale that we do almost the same amount as the whole consolidated market this year in The Netherlands. For that, we have locked in the capacity, and it's very important for us that we do it in such a way that it is also from a pricing perspective efficient. Mobile service revenues, yes, so first of all, maybe Chris, you can take over. I am or we as a company are super focused on improving that trend, because for a long period of time, we were under pressure. I think KPN is positioning itself much better in the market, either on the higher end of the propositions with unlimited, also on more in the lower priced segment, although most of the real low price propositions are eliminated in the market. So I'm happy with the trends and it's for us very important to continue. Maybe you want to add something on the Yes. Michael, on these mobile service revenues, if you look at that one single revenue line, on a sequential basis, they have been actually fairly flat during the year on mobile service revenues. If I look at the progress into current and future quarters, and I break it down in base times ARPU, base weakness growth for the first time in a long time. Actually, when you look back, the numbers start to grow June on a monthly basis. And so at this point in time, we still see continued positive base developments so far since June. When it comes to ARPU, ARPU has been, of course, at a slight decline this year, but all rounded to 17%, so closer on to 17%, where in the summer, we expected a more negative impact from roaming. And of course, the negative impact was there, but countered by supported from out of bundle calling. So our ARPU over the summer kept better than we actually had hoped for. And then the two other elements are the leakage from repricing of our back book is turning less and less, so net inflow value has become better. And secondly, we see some ARPU support from more unlimited sources. I don't think our ARPU will immediately go to step two to 18, but we see in general quite encouraging base developments and stable to possibly slightly growing ARPU going forward if we manage to hold on to an increasing share of unlimited. So for mobile service revenues, we actually see quite a good outlook. Thanks. Very helpful detail. Our next question is from Mr. Luigi Minerva of HSBC. Go ahead please, sir. Your line is open. Yes. Good afternoon. Thanks for taking my questions. The first is on your outlook for CapEx and free cash flow. I think you are presenting a very convincing picture with regards to the fiber case, the fiber upgrades. Likewise, you signaled in the presentation that you may exceed your cost savings target. So my question is whether you can afford increasing CapEx going forward while preserving still the free cash flow generation that we will see this year. So whether there is enough room on the cost savings side to just reinvest cost savings in CapEx while preserving free cash flow generation? And the second question is on an update on the regulation side. Has the electronic communication code becomes part of national law? What is the outlook you are envisaging in terms of particularly wholesale fiber access? Thank you. Okay. Luigi, when it comes to CapEx, you have to wait for more details on the November 24, but I give you a few snippets, right? We see highly attractive returns on fiber. We are accelerating the rollout. So going forward, CapEx allocated fiber will go up. On the other hand, we see non fiber CapEx to come down. We'll save on nonfiber CapEx. And then gradually, with the cost opportunity kicking in, it will also provide support to our free cash flow. Now the full the final numbers, bear with me. It's only four more weeks, so we'll give you a more integral view. But the components will be around supporting EBITDA and cash generation of cost savings, slimming down nonfiber CapEx and increasing fiber CapEx, and that will lead to a final outcome. And also the point, of course, at the end of the day, after free cash flow, your dividends, the progression of our dividend, that is really sacred. I will definitely preserve that. But for rest, Luigi, that is what I can tell you right now. And for rest, bear with us in four more weeks, we'll give you the full picture. Thank you. And to get and then your question on regulation. Yes, so there are guidelines to be implemented mainly with respect to symmetrical access, of course, is what we focus on. Yes, so what we think is that we maintained our open wholesale policy. We allow access to passive infrastructure where possible. There is abundant investments in fiber in The Netherlands. There are at least two high speed fixed connections in every home premises in The Netherlands. So that is what we think why we don't need an ACM regulation as we used to have in The Netherlands based on the EECC. Although we understand that our regulator, of course, is working on that, and we are in close contact with them. We expect ACM to open up a consultation on their policy in the coming months. There's some delay in The Netherlands, so they will implement, but the whole process of the consultation will take longer than planned for, so that will move deeply into next year. Yes, so where we come from is that we appreciate the fact that we need a regulatory framework. Currently, we're not regulated. That's due to all discussions we had with our regulated regulators, excuse me. But we think that we should avoid further price regulation on our access obligation. And the current framework is wearing quite well. The best proof point is the market, the Dutch market. If you look at what's happening now is that we lost 4,000 consumer broadband customers, and we saw an inflow on also sites of 22,000. So other service providers competing against KPN are doing good business on our network. So that's the best proof point. But we're in the middle of the process. We'll take some longer due to delay on the government side, but at the end, it's something we had to cover, of course. Thank you. Our next question is from Mr. Usman Khazi of Berenberg. Go ahead please, sir. Hello. Thank you for taking my question. My two questions, one on free cash flow and the other one is on network separation, please. So on free cash flow, I guess, you put out the guidance for the full year of $750,000,000 which is implying that in Q4, the free cash flow could be down around $30,000,000 roughly year on year. Given that the first nine months is up $50,000,000 year on year, I mean, why should we expect Q4 free cash flow to be down significantly, particularly given it's a working capital big working capital inflow quarter. You're obviously doing well on that front. So, yeah, any color there would be interesting. And then the second question was I wondering if you could update us on just the board or the management thoughts on how you view the advantages or disadvantages of network separation at this point in the deployment cycle of fiber? Yes. Jose, on the first question, I'll take it on our free cash flow. And your point mathematically is correct. A few points coming in when you look at our EBITDA, not all our EBITDA is coming in, in cash in this period. At this point in time, you see some delta provisions. Secondly, on the interest rate side, a small point is that we've got issued a bond with a short first coupon, so there'll be some smaller interest payment in December. And finally, indeed, we do see working capital commitment in the fourth quarter that has to do with the phasing of CapEx through the year. So our CapEx is more evenly spread throughout the year than last year, where we often had a spike in Q4. This year, Q4 will have the repercussions of CapEx increase in the year. And so and then, of course, the fiber ramp up would also require some prepayments. So it's a combination mainly on CapEx timing on the fiber component that will have a drag on working capital in the fourth quarter. And then some smaller effects being the short first coupon, so noncash EBITDA or EBITDA that comes in, in cash, but gradually over time that ultimately lead to the fourth quarter free cash flow. Yes. And on the topic of network separation, it's, of course always an interesting topic in our industry. First of all, I see the value of having a clear, visible netco on one side and a good service provider on the other side. And that's exactly the outcome of our simplification program. We are simplifying the back end and the front end of the company at the same time. But we're moving to a far more clear, visible, Natco, Servco model, and it's very interesting to run your company like that. The current value we see is to keep it integrated as one company, and by that, create the most value. Of course, I looked or relooked a lot to what's happening in other countries. I think in some countries, network separation was a bit artificial, splitting up a company with pricing agreements between the Netco and the Servco being artificial as well. But in The Netherlands, that part is moving to a more market pricing. It like I just said, the wholesale side, it's working. We're simplifying the back end of our company. We're rolling out more and more fiber, and we're simplifying the Servcos. We have SolCom, Simio, Telfort, KPN. We took out Telfort, we're migrating the broadband base as we speak. So probably in a couple of years of now, we have a logical moment where you suddenly see a Servco and a Netco being KPN. And that's the outcome of our simplification program. I don't believe in an artificial split in the wrong moment of time. Our next question is from Mr. Polo Tang of UBS. Go ahead please, sir. Yes. Hi. I've got two questions. The first one is really just about the fiber cost per home passed. So I think previously, you talked about roughly EUR 700 per home passed. But are you seeing the costs come down as you scale up the fiber build and commit to more volumes going forward? And the second question is really just around your business unit because we've obviously seen revenue declines there accelerate to minus 7.9% in Q3 after minus 5.7% in Q2. But can you clarify how much of this step down was because of absence of roaming? And how much was because of proactive measures and transformation that you were doing away from legacy revenues? Or were there other factors? And are there any data points that you can share that would give us comfort that business revenue declines can ease going forward and that underlying business trends in the unit are resilient despite COVID-nineteen? Yes. Thanks, Paolo, for your questions. Your first question was on the fiber rollout cost. Yes, so in the past, we were above EUR 1,000 per house. We went down and down and down, and then we aim for something like EUR $7.50, which also related to the areas we picked. So it really depends on the area. One picks when it comes to rollout costs. On these areas, we do like EUR 700 today. When we move to other areas, could be like EUR 800 or 900. So it's really where we rollout. Others are rolling did roll out in rural areas, for instance. We never did that because that's like 4,000 or 5,000 per house hold. So it depends on the business model, maybe one off fee you can ask from your customers that you move in these kind of areas. But on the current rollout, I think, Chris, we do roughly for an activated line between EUR 800 and 900. But that then the activation is until the FTU included. So it's fiber to the home moving into a household into the cabinet with an FTU on the wall. So the only thing you need is a modem. So if I look at the way we contract now, the contractors' costs are always getting cheaper because of the rollout, the numbers we give them and the areas we select and the time we give them to stay in an area like that. Yes, it means it's a function of I think the naked price per home is gradually coming down. It's not a revolution, but gradually coming down. At the same time, if you move from the more dense cities to slightly more the outer suburban areas tend to have more digging distance. So you'll have dig more meters in the ground, that means that has an upward effect on the cost. So the clear cost per house is coming down a bit, but you sometimes have to dig a bit further if you move away from the highly populated areas to the more suburban areas. Thus, it's important that you lock in your production capacity at the right numbers at the right price, so that makes it kind of predictable. Paolo, when you your second question on the business segment, do mean roaming or COVID has a significant impact on the business segment, mostly on roaming. Interestingly, for example, in the consumer segment, we saw the roaming drop compensated by more out of bundle calling. You don't see that in business. So I'd estimate that the EBITDA decline in business is about 60% driven by COVID rate revenues, 40% other. And COVID is roaming, but it's also networking, I. E. IT hotspots and IT revenues. Now of course, roaming at some point, it's not going to decline any further. So the year on year comps will start to look better in 2021. So I would estimate 60% of the EBITDA decline is COVID, 40% is not. The other 40% has to do with some ARPU pressure in mobile with underlying and the structural decline in fixed voice that is counted by increasing base numbers, but that still leads to a decline. So for a chunk of the decline year on year, I think the comps will start to look better next year as somewhat roaming cannot drop below zero. And also the uses of hotspots, Wi Fi locations cannot drop below further next year. Yes. And when it comes to B2B, we always talk about the top line pressure in B2B and when it's going to reflect. In the future, I hope to give you more insights in how this is built up between SME, LE and the real corporate customers. Because 50% of the EBITDA we make in B2B is SME. So and there, we're much further than on the corporate customers. So it is important that we give you more insights there. So we're more positive than we were on B2B or at least I am more positive than I was on the B2B outlook perhaps two years ago. It will not inflect soon, but parts of it will, and that's the higher value part. So that is important for us to focus on and to give you more insights in. Thanks. Our next question is from Mr. Keval Kiroia of Deutsche Bank. Go ahead please sir. Thanks very much. I've got two questions, please. One on the FTE reductions and one on working capital. First, on headcount reduction. Obviously, we have seen a slowdown in the rates of cuts this year and also quite a modest cut in Q3. Would you mind giving us an update on how we should think about the pace of reductions going forward? And then if you can share about discussions with the unions as well? And then second, on working capital, you've obviously done a very good job at improving the working capital out flow. Previously, you have discussed that it was to be negative as the fiber rollout ramps up. Is there anything you could share about how we should think about that going forward, whether it would still be the case as fiber continues to ramp up? Thank you. Yes. Thank you. On FTE reduction, yes, first of all, when COVID-nineteen started, we took the decision somewhere in March to stop the reorganizations. And the request of advisers we were going to send to our works councils for the period Q2 and Q3. So we stopped that for six months. And we gave it a go a couple of months ago. So we delayed in FTE reduction. We didn't delay in FTE spend. We immediately took the action to send a lot of higher personal homes. So we have a blend of like roughly 10,000 KPN people and 2,500 hired people on a daily base. And we really did a tough action on the hired staff. And now we're scaling up the reorganizations again. So on FTE, we will not meet our original plans, although things are moving up to a speed we are used to, a level we're used to. We're in good conversation with our worst council and our unions. And we yes, we will continue there. I mean, we're simplifying the organization, and we all understand our worst counsel as well that doesn't make any sense to stop laying off people when you simplify because that's not good for the people either. You can't hostile them in KPN. We're good for our people. We increased salaries. We took all kind of measures to make them comfortable at home. We give them additional payout per month to support them at home. So I think we all in all, we did a good job, and that allows us now to continue our reorganization as well, which is, at the end, good for the company and so good for the people working in KPN. Yes. When it comes to your working capital question, I mean, the upward push on working capital from fiber definitely is there. I mean, that's inherent linked to that piece of business activity, where fiber, you tend to pay more upfront versus non fiber CapEx. So that increasing investing in fiber has an upward push of working capital. We've been able to mitigate some of it, both in our fiber contracting, so arranging payment terms with some of our construction companies and contracting partners and improving the working capital on the non fiber space by invoicing earlier, paying later, changing payment terms, think about rolling billing solutions for our customers, etcetera. So our working capital program has been kind of all inclusive and broad encompassing many, many features. So that has been able to mitigate some of that fiber impact. At the same time, I can't fully mitigate it because the inherent shift to fiber will create upward push on working capital. And again, we're trying to compensate in many, many other areas. And I'm proud of what we have achieved so far. The success of it has been pretty good, but there's still an undercurrent of the working capital increase. That is most you feed it when you see an increase in fiber. So as we said also at the beginning of the year, the delta in fiber, the increase in fiber commitments actually that drives that working capital push, and that's what we experienced this year. But again, I'm pretty proud of what we've achieved and how we've been able to counter some of that. I can't Our take it through either next question is from Mr. Paul Sidney, Credit Suisse. Go ahead please. Yes, thank you. Good afternoon. Just a couple of questions, please, for me. The first one, just on fiber. Can I just clarify some comments you made on the fiber build in response to an earlier question? Did you say that you've done 120,000 by the 2019, around 300,000 likely this year, but reaching the 1,000,000 by 2021 perhaps looks a bit of a stretch, just so I've understood that correctly? And then second question on the Dutch broadband market. Your retail broadband adds have stabilized helped by fiber and wholesale continues to do very well. Do you see this now as a much healthier balance between retail and wholesale, especially post the move away from Telfort? Thank you. Yes. I think to start with your second question, I think the balance is much healthier because in the past, we saw like us losing 20,000 customers and we saw 20,000 customers coming in on the wholesale side. So that's not a good picture. The current balance looks much better. Of course, on the retail side, we aim for crossing that zero line and grow, but it's pretty good leverage on the wholesale side. So we are successful on fiber. The fiber case works. We go above 60% penetration of a lot of areas, but that's done with our yes, the other service providers, our wholesale customers as well. And a long time ago, I was part of the team that built the fiber case, and we always included wholesale as an important part of the business case because if you want to reach levels of 70% or 80% penetration, yes, it's best for market to do it together with the other providers. So this is a good balance. On fiber build, I didn't mention 1,000,000 not to reach next year, but I think if you look at the line of 120,000 last year, this year 300. Yes, then we are going to reach that 1,000,000 for sure, that I promise you. But probably, it's not going to be end of next year, but a quarter later, two quarters later. For me, that's not that important. It's just a number, and we will continue to roll out fiber. But we should do it in an efficient way, in a prudent way, keeping an eye on our financial but also operational excellence. We come from an era where fiber NPS was minus 14% of everything we did in areas before we connected customers. So the current thing is that we execute end to end on the fiber value chain, and that's working quite good. It's a careful process. If we scale up above 400,000,000 reach a level of $450,000,000 next year, we do almost 100 more than we ever did. So I like the idea of the €1,000,000 in three years, but doing like 600,000,000 per year is a bit too stretched for next year. So I would aim more for $4.50. Look, think, Paul, we've done 73,000 homes passed in this quarter in the summer, and we'll continue to ramp up. You can see the weekly production scheme going higher and higher, and we'll continue to increase our weekly production in these rigs. So expect the quarterly production in the third quarter of at least 75,000 to possibly a bit higher. So that means if you think about that, we'll get very close to $1,000,000 We may miss it by a few months. But if you look at the speed that we rolled about a quarter, and I think you're going to get to $80,000 to $100,000 per quarter pretty quickly, then the medium will reach. It may take a month or two longer, but that's kind of the scale of the deviation that we're talking about. And as Joe said, I think I'd rather do it in a measured way being effective and try to convert customers. That, to me, is the most important thing to be controlled. And then the million will reach, and it may take a month or two longer, but that's kind of what we're talking about given the scale of CWD. And just a quick follow-up. But once you hit the $1,000,000 presumably the plan is still to just push on and keep on going? Yes. So that's why I say it's I mean, I don't wake up in the morning with that $1,000,000 in my head. Our TVO does, by the way. That's his target. But we're not going to scale up and then suddenly stop. We've been there, and it's super inefficient. So we need a machinery that is working consistently against low cost efficiently, first time right. And we want to see these kind of numbers. We want to see that the connection is first time right and that we don't have to see send two or three field engineers. I give you an example, we always talk about the rollout cost per homes passed. But behind that is a service engineer field engineer cost that in the past we used to send field engineers three times to a household before we connect a customer real time. So fiber rollout engineer, the one engineer into the home to install the FPU and then at the end, an engineer to the households to activate the customer. We now decide the way of one engineer taking care of everything. So maybe these contractor costs are not going down, but they do much more for the same amount of money, and they activate customers for us as well. So that all is now in the machinery. We're improving there and scaling that up in the first time right way and then ending above 400,000,000 then I feel pretty good. And we don't need the €1,000,000 next year, but we will meet it, like Chris said, a couple of months later. That's perfect. Thank you very much. Next question is from Steve Malcolm of Redburn. Go ahead please, sir. Yes. Good afternoon, guys. I have two questions, please. One, just on B2B. I know you don't give us any EBITDA at the moment. Can you give us an idea of what the drag on group EBITDA is from the underlying declines in B2B at the moment? And I guess what the price is from a group perspective and stabilizing that number, that would be really helpful. And then just on the price rise, I mean, you take a price rise every June, July every year, but a slightly different year this year. So just interested, you know, any any comments you got, any feedback from, you know, the customer behavior around that price rise? It seems like all the KPIs were pretty solid. So whether you were seeing any sort of particularly different behavior on TV kind of spin down, fiber, those kinds of things? If you're interested just to understand how the price rise landed this year relative to previous years? Yes. Yes, to be honest, it landed much better than last year. We are yes, we have a new communication chief, by the way, and we really worked on the introduction of the price rise this summer. So we made it less aggressive, and we explained that we do it on a level that we do on the CLA to our own employees. So we increased the CLA to our employees. And on the same level, we increased our tariffs because we think that all companies should increase their CLAs, the salaries for the people because of the CPI, a little bit on the positive side that we were there for us, I should say. But at the end, we had a whole storyline build up on, listen, this is what we do on salaries increase to our people, what we have to do yes, more or less the same to the increase of tariffs out in the market because of that. And it landed quite well. It landed much better than last year. So what we learned is that if you not only plan for the price increase and how to do it and introduce it technically, but also anticipate on the way you inform the media, you prepare in the media for that, then it's very helpful. So not much of a negative impact there. And we did it in the middle of COVID, by the way. Yes, Steve, to your first question sorry, ahead. Yes. I mean, I guess those are lessons that you will maintain in the business for the price rise next year. So we should expect the communication to be similar, increase prices along with Yes, absolutely. I mean we aim for a price rise every year, as you know. And like I said, what I learned is that communication helps. We really hired one of the best people in The Netherlands. And yes, although we are in communication, we always can do better on communication ourselves. And that's what we did very well here. So we learned from that, and we will continue to be better on that next year. Great. Thanks. Steve, to your first question, if you think about the EBITDA today and if you think of the delta EBITDA Q3 to Q3 or Q3 twenty twenty to Q3 twenty nineteen, I mean, rounded numbers, think about B2C being about EUR 5,000,000 off, business segment being €20,000,000 off, and the rest is made up by wholesale and cost savings in the rest of the business. That gives the EBITDA delta, Q3 twenty nineteen to Q3 twenty twenty. That's kind of where it is order of magnitude. So the EUR 20,000,000 of business segment up, I think 50% to 60% of that is COVID, the rest is underlying kind of business pressure. So that gives you bit of a feel for the underlying dynamics of results. Now you need to take it with a bit of a grain of salt because, of course, some of our TDO network business works for the segments. So these are not end to end numbers, but simply the EBITDA as reported internally, not with full cost allocation. But to give you a feel for what the drag is of the business segment, which is in COVID and non COVID part. Hope that helps you. Okay. So just to sort of try and read this in the lines, you're saying just over half the €20,000,000 quarterly in B2B is COVID, the rest is underlying. Would it be right to say that if you can stabilize that, there's a mid-10s, tens of millions annual benefit to the EBITDA line. Is that a fair assessment? If you stabilize the COVID portion, you mean? Well, we assume the COVID portion comes out or even reverses next year. You know, it's what next year will look like. But if we assume that January is one off and, just under half is underlying and you can stabilize that bit, then the underlying improvement is what I'm trying to say is like to get to stable would be at mid-10s of millions benefit to EBITDA line. Is that fair? I mean, mathematically, you're correct if you do that. That's right. We just did the hard work is stabilizing it. Right? I mean, I'm not sure if we could stabilize it over that easy bit, but in an Excel world, you're correct. But that would be And after five after after four quarters' go. It's just that it's not happened yet. But, I I get the message. Great. Thank you. Next question is from mister Joshua Mills, Exane. Go ahead, please. Hi there. Thanks for taking the questions. Two for me. The first was just on the Net Promoter Scores you showed us for B2C and B2B. Could you give us an idea of how the market NPS has developed over this period? I'm just trying to understand if this is a general frustration around COVID issues and that your position is still quite strong relative to peers or if there's a more KPN specific, issue here? And then the second question just around your network strategy. So we spent a lot of this call discussing your own rollouts. And in the past, you've also done kind of bolt on acquisitions. Just be interested to hear your high level thoughts on network co investment. So have you ever thought about doing rollout alongside partners like DeltaFiber? And if so, do you think that, that would be allowed by the regulator or the additional conditions to think about? Yes. On the NPS, like I said in my introduction, it is a bit of an industry trend that MBS is under pressure. And not surprisingly because, yes, suddenly, from one day to the other, all people started to work from home. And yes, asking for better support on whatever, TV, WiFi and also suddenly the full family, especially in The Netherlands when the schools closed. I mean, we saw the traffic pattern changing after people started to work from home, and that was more or less the peak capacity on 06:00 in the evening. But when the school closed, we more or less that peak went up. We have a lot of capacity, so that wasn't the problem. But that means that the whole family is depending on that one broadband connection, that's the lifeline of a household suddenly, and that's when people start calling. We have a product out in a market very successful, twice sold out during COVID, called SuperWiFi. It's a mesh based. You just plug it in, and you have much better WiFi. But always, people call for this kind of service. So that's what we saw. We also see it as an industry trend. The thing is that we are on NPS, we were much higher than ZIGO. We used to all years ago be below zero, and we increased to a super high level of 18, I think, beginning of this year. But if you if you go high, you can fall deeper than the others as well. So we see it coming down over the all service providers in The Netherlands and in The industry. But since we were far out the highest in the market, we are falling more points than the others. And yes, it is an important target, a holy grail. The bonus payment for all employees in KPNs depends on the NPS score. So we are obliged to really focus on that. And our network strategy, we did do every once in a while a co invest deal, smaller ones. Usually, we move on a network or we share rollout plans, And after a while, we consolidate. That's done on a small scale. We did one last quarter. I forgot the name of that Friesland footprint, but that's all small. So we yes, we're always interested in those kinds of opportunities when it works out in a positive way for KPM. So if there's anything news on the horizon on that matter, we will, of course, mention that. Yes. I mean, Josh, I think the regulator would not necessarily be against it as long as you continue to apply an open network policy on whatever you partner with. We've got an open network policy, so as long as whoever you partner with is open to that. I think that I don't see any major regulatory objective. And the interesting point is that every now and then, we have complaints about us pushing others aside when they try to roll out fiber. And it always leads to questions from municipalities. So if you share forces with another, yes, that one is solved as well. But so it worked in the past, maybe it can work in the future as well. Great. And so just one very small follow-up. On the Net Promoter Scores, are you still on the consumer side ahead of VodafoneZiggo? Or have you dipped below them as a result of the NPS drop this quarter? Yes. So we are on plus 12% by head. I think they are around 8%. But yes, I always focus more on my own performance and jiggles. That's my problem probably, but I think we're above them still. Very clear. Thank you. Next question is from Mr. Ung Michouda of Jefferies. Go ahead please. Thank you. I have two questions, please. The first one would be the personal cost reduction, excluding any divestments, was minus 15% in the third quarter, and it was minus 9% last quarter. It's much, much faster. And I think during your prepared remarks, you talked about slowing down the hired work quite quite sharply. So I was wondering, of that minus 15%, is it possible to get a sense of how much of that is sort of this this step down in in hired work due to the COVID situation, and how much is is is a more sort of underlying sustainable rate? And my question is the second question is, at at what point under under Dutch rules would, KPN have to disclose the approach of an interested party of a party that might want to take over KPN? What are the rules there? At what point the situation has escalated to a point where you have to sort of announce that or talk about it? Thank you. Yes, okay. Thank you. Yes, on personal spend, I mean, 15 percent is not what we do on an annual level and not what we do year after year. So that is pretty tough. So parts has to do with COVID in the first place. When we realized that we had to close all shops and send all our service centers home, we stopped field engineers for a couple of weeks to work in customer premises. And we realized that we had to do something. We kept on paying also all the hired hands, I think for a month. And that was much better than other companies did in The Netherlands. But then we took the action since we stopped the reorganizations to to lay them off. And by that, keep a very good eye on the cost side. Also costs related to people working like travel expenses, we really stopped and we did cut a lot there. So and also reduction, we were planning to do anyway. And by the way, what we also learned is that inefficiencies in our company are suddenly very visible due to COVID-nineteen. And after this pandemic crisis is over, we will benefit from that because we will never go back to the same cost level of hired people, travel expenses, office spend, etcetera. So part of the COVID reduction, we will probably keep for the years to come. So still, it was a good quarter on personnel spend, I would say, a little bit helped by COVID in some kind of a funny way. But yes, I think and if you look at on KPN, if you look at the staff developments, it was said before the restructuring reorganizations have been delayed somewhat and are being picked up right now. But at same time, we've installed a pretty drastic hiring freeze. I've looked at the number of new hires in our real new hires in the group, we're like look at about five to eight a month, which is quite little when you look at a 10,000 people staff level. So effectively installed a hiring freeze. With that, we can still shrink our FTE base somewhat because there's natural attrition that is ongoing. People are still retiring. And secondly, we've saved a lot on as Joe said, on hired staff external staff. We're restructuring our shops and the way we operate our shops, so finding ways to cut back on cost. I think we're going to continue to be low and reducing on FTE spend. But again, maybe not at the same magnitude and pace of this quarter. And then your second question was when we are obliged to publish information in case of approach by PE. So we are obliged to immediately publish price sensitive information in general, provided it's sufficiently concrete. So the necessity to publish anything in case of an approach by a party will highly depend on the concreteness of any proposal. And of course, on our consideration on such a proposal. So yeah, whenever there is price sensitive information, we have to inform you there. And yeah, there's no reason to publish anything on the rumor, I mean. Our next question is from miss Siyi He of Citibank. Go ahead, please. Hi. Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my questions. I have two, please. The first one is on your b to b top line. I understand that the big the business migration has been one of the biggest drags to your top line development over the past few years. And now given that the the the majority of the heavy lifting of customer migration almost done, I wonder if you can help us to think about what's the next step for your b to b plan, kinda how should we think about the trajectory going forward? And my second question is on Huawei. I understand that you are in the process of replacing Ericsson with Huawei in your antenna network. And do you consider there could be a potential risk to your current mobile network strategy given what's happened in Europe in general towards Huawei equipment. And I wonder if you can just give us idea hypothetically if Netherlands were to ban Huawei in both core and antenna network. How do you think a potential cost incurred? And whether there is continuous plan built into the current CapEx budget? Thank you. Well, on the first question on the B2B top line, some of the revenue declines have been self inflicted due to migrations. We've made quite some progress there, especially on the SME side. I think in the large corporate segment, some migrations are still to be done. And possibly, if you would, may have revenue consequences. We're carefully weighing the timing of that. We've taken into account the lessons learned from the previous migration and seeing how to manage it and how to limit the revenue implications. So we're not done there yet, but we've made quite some strong progress. What does it mean going forward? Well, look, if you look at our SME, our B2B business, SME is about one third of revenues, but with 6070% EBITDA in that business. There, most of the migrations are behind us. Our focus will be on cross sell and upsell. Already, we're seeing gradually clients taking on more than two products and taking up our integral product proposition. So focus will be on the SME segment, growing there through higher ARPU in mobile, getting unlimited in the SME segment out, increasing our cross sell. In the corporate segment, you'll see we may see some remaining migrations, have may have some revenue implications. But in the larger corporate segment, we really focus on value, not on volume because volume there immediately goes at the expense of your margins. So that's kind of how we think about the business segment with some migrations to be done and then focus on SME, on cross sell, upsell, increasing it's like a more for more strategy, also with regards to unlimited in our mobile base. And in the larger corporate segment, continue to focus on value first and volume later. Yes. And on Huawei, yes, let me first say, we have a multi vendor policy. So we use in our networks Ericsson, Nokia and also Huawei in some areas. We're in constant dialogue with our government on the topic of Chinese technology. We also look a lot at what's happening in other West European countries. We had a lot of contact with Deutsche Telekom, BT, etcetera, on what they're doing. We already announced our policy before our government did anything on this topic, when we said we're not. We're going to replace our critical systems for Western technology over time. So in the life cycle of assets, that is a very important one. And you're right, we are moving Huawei in our radio access network. But last week, we announced that we will build a new five gs core network with Ericsson. We were working on a tender for a long time, because in the life cycle, we need to upgrade our core network in the coming two years. And Huawei is in that domain as well presented, and we're going to phase them out and move Ericsson in. So when it comes to critical domains, we think it's best to move in other suppliers. When we are in the process of upgrading or rebuilding an asset. And on radio, yes, we are in constant dialogue with our government, and we think we move according to guidelines we get from our government. That's very clear. Thank you. Our next question is from Mr. Friedrich Boulan of Bank of America. Go ahead please, sir. Hi, good afternoon, gentlemen. Two questions from my side. First of all, on the free cash flow outlook. So if I understand your €1,000,000 fiber ambition for 2021 is unchanged. If anything, you might be a few quarters late. And beyond that, you're saying that the incremental rollout could be to a degree absorbed by reductions elsewhere. So I'm trying to understand a bit what it means for your free cash flow. You've not reiterated the 2021 outlook today, which implies a step up in cash flow in 2021. So can you detail whether the border framework is still valid or if there are other moving parts we should be aware of working capital elsewhere. And then second, just to follow-up on the previous question on potential PE interest, whether you can just clarify for us whether you've had discussions with any potential partners and what do you think would be guarantees that a potential buyer would have to put on the table for an offer to be acceptable for KPM, the Board, the foundation, etcetera? Thank you. Yes. So to start on the PE topic, I think, like I said, there were some rumors in the market, and I have nothing to add to that. We don't react on rumors. If there's anything we have to mention to the market, we will do that in a prudent way, but we don't react on rumors. So that's for the PE topic. Now free cash flow next year, maybe so we gave more than clear guidance for 2020. We're planning to give to provide you a regular strategy update on the November 24. And since we're entering 2021, and it's the final year of the plan we announced in 2018, and we have new management in place, and we think it's a good moment in time to inform you further on the twenty fourth. And like usual, that will include our strategic ambitions, not for 'twenty one only, but for the period of 2021, 2023. And we will give then a full integrated picture of our strategy. And without going into further details today, maybe, yes, Chris, you can give some background to our thinking. Yes. I think I mentioned, like we will say, what we do, we protect our progressive dividends. You may see some more allocation to fiber in different forms, see how we can do more, can we do faster. Mean, course, we talked about the 1,000,000 homes, but there are other opportunities as well. For example, business parks where you can invest in. So there's a number of fiber initiatives that we'll undertake. So fiber CapEx will go up and we'll be scaling non fiber CapEx down, And some of that will lead to more guidance for next year. But you have to bear with us until the November 24, if you don't mind. Thank you. Okay. That's it. Thanks for joining us today on the Q3 call. If you have any further questions, please contact the IR team at KPN. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's presentation. Thank you for your participation. You may now disconnect your lines. I wish you all a very good day.