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Investor Update

Dec 6, 2022

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Good morning, and good afternoon to everyone on the call. I'm Meg Geldens, VP of Investor Relations, and I'll be moderating today's call. The IR team at Wolters Kluwer is pleased to be able to host this teach-in for you today. The plan for this session is to give you some context to our tax accounting division, and then take an in-depth look at two of our largest cloud products, CCH Axcess and CCH Tagetik. Following the prepared remarks, there will be a chance for you to ask questions. To ask a question, please use the conference call dial-in numbers provided in our email invite and posted on our website. Today's slides have been published on our website. Could I ask you to read slide two regarding forward-looking statements? We will not be disclosing new information on current trading today.

Please refer to our recent trading update for details on our outlook for 2022. It's my pleasure to introduce our speakers. First, Wolters Kluwer's CEO, Nancy McKinstry, will provide some historical and strategic context to our Tax & Accounting business. Second, Karen Abramson , CEO of the Tax & Accounting division, will give an overview of the markets in which we operate and the division's strategy. Karen joined Wolters Kluwer 22 years ago and initially led business units in Governance, Risk & Compliance and in health, and for the past nine years has been at the helm of Tax & Accounting. Jason Marx, President and CEO of our large North American professional Tax & Accounting business, will provide a closer look at CCH Axcess. Jason has been with the company for 15 years and ran our GRC financial services group before moving across to Tax & Accounting.

Last but not least, Ralf Gärtner, Senior VP and General Manager of Corporate Performance Solutions, will take you through the CCH Tagetik platform. Ralf has been with Wolters Kluwer for 11 years. He ran several of our European software units before taking on the global role at CCH Tagetik. Without further ado, I would like to hand over to Nancy McKinstry to set the stage.

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

Thank you, Meg. I'm delighted we're able to provide you with some deeper insights into the world of tax and accounting software today, and to give you an opportunity to hear directly from a few members of the leadership team in tax and accounting. Software made up 42% of Wolters Kluwer's group revenues in 2021. The Tax & Accounting division is our biggest software business. It accounts for more than half of the group's software revenues. This slide lists a few of the largest tax and accounting software products, all of them available in both cloud and on-premise versions. The two cloud platforms we are showcasing today are among the fastest-growing products at Wolters Kluwer, with good prospects in coming years. These software solutions are quintessential expert solutions, delivering deep domain expertise straight into the professional's daily workflow, bringing automation and productivity benefits.

Over the past decade, we have seen the performance of tax and accounting improve very significantly. It has taken many years of long-term planning and organic product investment to get to this stage. A few acquisitions have also played a role. Improved performance has been driven in a very large part by the shift towards software, which in 2021 made up 78% of the division's revenues. More specifically, it's been the move to the cloud that has fueled the acceleration. Cloud software accounted for about 1/3 of the division's software revenues in 2021, and that proportion will continue to rise in the coming years. With that, I'd now like to turn the floor over to Karen Abramson .

Karen Abramson
CEO of Tax and Accounting Division, Wolters Kluwer

Hello. Thank you for joining us today. At Tax & Accounting, our purpose is to deliver a deep impact when it matters most. Through our 7,100 employees, serving customers in over 150 countries, we fuel global commerce by enabling professionals in tax & accounting firms, corporations, and governing authorities to drive productivity, navigate change, gain insights, and deliver better outcomes. As a division, we serve more than one million accountants, 93% of the Fortune 500, 84% of the Fortune 1000, all Big Four accounting firms, and 1,600 multinational offices of the chief financial officer. When you think about the services we offer, contemplate that 85% are software and related services, and 15% are information solutions. There are four business units that make up Tax & Accounting.

Three of the business units are focused on the professional tax market. They are noted here in the blue circles. Tax & Accounting North America, Tax & Accounting Asia Pacific, and Tax & Accounting Europe. These businesses deliver compliance and workflow solutions in firm management, in audit, and in tax. In Europe, we also deliver a payroll solution. The fourth business unit is Corporate Performance Management, noted here in green. This business focuses on processes within the Office of the Chief Financial Officer. Our financial transformation platform, CCH Tagetik, provides streamlined finance workflows for all transactional accounting, from financial close and consolidation to disclosure management, as well as financial and operational planning based on predictive intelligence, budgeting, reporting, and analytics covering the financial workflow from close to disclosure. This year, the platform introduced new capabilities for compliance reporting with ESG and integrated supply chain planning.

With workflows optimized by technology and guided by deep domain expertise, Wolters Kluwer Tax & Accounting helps businesses of all sizes grow, manage, and protect their businesses and their clients' businesses. We continue to have product superiority over our competitors as product innovation and investment have been strong. Over the last 10 years, we've increased our investment in product development by about 70%. Tax & Accounting is the largest player in the global professional tax & accounting market and one of the leading global Corporate Performance Management providers. The professional firm market is around EUR 5 billion globally. In the professional firm space, we are the largest by revenue. In North America, our main competitors are Thomson Reuters and Intuit. The Corporate Performance Management or CPM market is around EUR 5 billion in size as well.

In Corporate Performance Management, half of the market is shared by the traditional Big 3 ERP players, SAP, Oracle, and IBM. The other half of the market is made up of what we consider to be specialty players. CCH Tagetik is one of the top three specialist players in the world with one of the most complete offerings in the market. Consistent investment in product development and the journey to the cloud have helped drive accelerated revenue growth for the division. Yet throughout, we have sustained and even improved margins. Organic growth has accelerated from 1%-2% back in the 2010-2014 timeframe to 6% in 2021 and 9% in the first 9 months of 2022. This has been driven by the business shift to faster-growing software and simultaneously the reduction in the proportion of print which has been in constant decline.

Today, print is less than 2% of division revenues. Margin performance reflects investment in higher growth businesses, particularly CCH Axcess and CCH Tagetik. Over 85% of the division's revenues are recurring in nature. This recurring revenue includes digital subscriptions to software and information products, shown as a blue line in the chart on the left. This revenue has proven to be highly resilient throughout the years and remained strong during COVID. Other recurring revenues, the gray line on the chart, include certain repeating transactional fees which are more volatile. Non-recurring revenue streams include software licenses and implementation, training, and other services. These two are more volatile, but are only 12% of total division revenues. We're very proud of the many awards we receive, each recognizing the quality of our products and our leadership in product innovation.

2022 has already exceeded the awards and recognition count of 2021. This year alone, we've had 32 product, culture, and leadership-related awards. Notable is the continuous analyst recognition for CCH Tagetik by multiple analysts, including Gartner, BARC, Dresner, BPM, and Chartis. CCH Axcess Validate was named top new product in the category audit tools in Accounting Today's 2022 top new products. Our success is truly driven by our people who also contribute to our standing as one of the best places to work in North America. The Forbes awards that you see on the slide have great meaning to us because those awards are won on employee feedback. We've been named a best employer for new graduates, best employer for diversity, best employer for women, and the best employer in the Americas. As we look forward, our strategy is informed by the market trends.

The first trend is regulatory intensity and complexity. The EU will require green energy and carbon footprint financial reporting in 2023. The US is expected to require it by 2026. PricewaterhouseCoopers predicts that this will be the largest change in global financial regulation since Sarbanes-Oxley. Moody's has already announced it will be plotting ESG data for corporate ratings. At the same time, offices of finance and tax, and accounting firms are grappling with new EU regulations around open banking, also known as PSD2, and new taxation and audit standards around cryptocurrencies. Governments around the world have just recently agreed to adopt the 15% minimum corporate tax. These are all seismic regulatory changes that will bring a need for new financial reporting capabilities, a new set of corporate tax penalties to navigate, and a new standard for auditing.

This is fundamentally changing how companies across the world calculate their corporate taxes and shifting where and how offices of finance focus their time on regulation. In tax and accounting, we are preparing to support our professional firms and corporations with workflow tools and reporting to help them navigate these regulatory changes. We are addressing all of these different regulations within our products, particularly within CCH Axcess and CCH Tagetik. The second trend we are tracking is cloud maturity. The pandemic was a catalyst for technology and created a shift. Companies in virtually every industry, including tax, have recognized that if they want their organizations to have the flexibility and scalability to thrive, especially during times of disruption, they need to be on the cloud. Conversations are no longer about shifting to the cloud.

They're much more about cloud maturity, with a focus on security, privacy, and ease of conversion so that companies can get to the cloud quickly. In all of our business units, we are working on more seamless data integrations to ease cloud conversion. The third trend is around connectivity and interoperability. Partner ecosystems will continue to be strengthened by greater connectivity and data interoperability. Standardization of data is critical to make it easier to capture, access, share, and analyze data across platforms, improving transparency and reducing cost. Tax & Accounting has built an iSaaS, Integration Software As a Service platform, to integrate and normalize disparate datasets. At Tax & Accounting today, we are integrating datasets for workflow and analysis through our CCH Axcess Marketplace and our CCH Tagetik AI Hub. The fourth trend we are tracking is around advanced technology.

Advanced intelligent technologies are now being standardized within artificial intelligence, machine learning, blockchain, and robotic process automation. Today, all computation is linear. Quantum computing, which introduces simultaneous calculation capability, is on the verge of moving beyond the academic realm into a real-world setting. This will provide much faster computing capabilities to support the timely processing of enormous amounts of data. This technology will, in the long term, have a significant impact on our tax engines, enabling faster integration of complex tax changes, more robust tax analysis, and better predictive modeling. The last trend is Web 3.0 and the Metaverse. Decentralized ecosystems of Web 3.0 broadly encompass the virtual reality user experience that we commonly call the Metaverse, as well as blockchain, a service-oriented architecture for rapid application development and secure transaction, high-speed 5G, and web decentralization.

Wolters Kluwer has recently purchased land in the Metaverse and is building out opportunities to engage our clients in training, collaboration spaces, and professional services. We continue to pursue growth through organic investment in product superiority and innovation to expand our customer and market reach. We will continue to accelerate our expert solutions by leveraging technology components and platforms in different markets with the CCH Axcess Marketplace, CCH Axcess Client Collaboration, CCH Axcess Validate, and CCH Axcess Audit. Focusing on the regulatory ESG solution and integrated business planning for CCH Tagetik follows our corporate priorities to accelerate our expert solutions. In Europe, we are focused on expanding firm management with CCH iFirm and delivering global audit to Europe, where we do not offer these products today.

To continue to expand our reach, we will be launching global direct tax on CCH Tagetik, further expanding our position in the office of the CFO. We will also expand our cloud accounting product suite in Tax and Accounting Europe. We will continue to develop robotic process automation and data analytics to drive scale in outsourcing. While we focus on customers, we also continually look inward to see where we can develop and evolve our own core capabilities. One of our most important initiatives will be to deploy an end-to-end digital customer experience so that customers can find, try, buy, use, collaborate, and renew all of our products within one smoothly integrated digital experience. Today, we are testing a digital portal in the United Kingdom that will go live in January and be the basis of this end-to-end experience for our customers.

It is always a top priority to invest in our talent through training and development and focusing on improving our already best-in-class engagement. We'd like to share with you more detail about two of the high-growth drivers in our business, CCH Axcess and CCH Tagetik. It is my pleasure to introduce you to Jason Marx, President and CEO, Tax & Accounting, North America, who will tell you more about CCH Axcess.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Thank you, Jason. Good day. Tax and Accounting North America is a leading global provider of tax, accounting, and audit information, software, and services. We offer innovative, integrated, and customer-inspired solutions that support the workflow of CPAs, corporate tax and accounting departments, and auditors, all enabling growth, enhancing productivity, and increasing profitability. Our expert analysis, authoritative content, customer-driven software applications, and integrated workflow productivity tools allow professionals to turn information into action. Today, CCH Axcess is the only integrated cloud-based tax and accounting platform for U.S. accounting firms, comprising 14 integrated modules and a marketplace that supports the entire workflow of the CPA, including tax, audit, and firm management. The CCH Axcess Platform has over 99,000 customers, 380,000 individual users, and two million clients in the U.S. market.

CCH Axcess is used by 90% of the top 100 accounting firms in North America, processing nearly 43 million tax returns. The platform is supported by significant technology infrastructure, supporting 2.8 petabytes of client data. Imagine that as 56 million four-drawer filing cabinets, the platform can handle some 4,500 transactions every second of the day. The CCH Axcess Platform of today is 15 years in the making from development to launch to the continued acceleration of its robust capabilities. While it started with a vision for a centralized platform to improve how accountants do business, there's been steady investment in innovation and organic development of solutions that drive the foundation of a firm's business: automation, standardization, and optimization, and the tools for rethinking business processes and ensuring that firms are working at the peak of their capabilities.

In 2013, the full CCH Axcess cloud platform launched with seven core modules. Since that time, we've added capabilities to digitize workflows and improve client experiences. Modules like CCH Axcess Client Collaboration track client workflows from beginning to end with a unified hub for firms and their clients with the tools to send and receive engagement letters, require information with customized organizers, review and deliver returns, and send invoices. We've added emerging technologies to make it better, like adding blockchain capabilities to drive bank confirmations for audit with CCH Axcess Validate, using predictive intelligence to help firms gather client insights, grow tax advisory services, fight commoditization, and expand revenue opportunities with CCH Axcess iQ. With the acquisition of XCM Solutions in 2020, we added capabilities to help firms address capacity challenges and simplify tax preparation, accelerating turnaround and increasing client satisfaction.

Through the launch of the CCH Axcess Marketplace, we added partners for cryptocurrency accounting, resource planning, scheduling, and payment solutions that enable firm automation through API integration to the CCH Axcess Platform. CCH Axcess Engagement, our newest addition to the CCH Axcess Platform, solves some of the most common audit workflow challenges facing firms today with the delivery of data-driven audit and its cloud-based work paper management and trial balance solution. Collectively, over the last 10 years, these solutions have transformed an entire profession. The CCH Axcess ecosystem brings increased productivity for firms while creating growth opportunities for the business. Customers benefit from the significant enhancements to productivity driven by the automation of workflows and the support for both remote and hybrid work models.

Firms benefit from the standpoint of business continuity and disaster recovery with their data in the cloud, removing the burden of maintaining internal IT systems on their own. Wolters Kluwer benefits from a recurring annual subscription model with strong retention rates and the opportunity for market share gains with additional cross-sell and upsell potential across the portfolio. Wolters Kluwer has a strong position in the North American professional firm market as the only complete cloud-based suite. In the professional tax and accounting business, we remain focused on firms of all sizes in North America with a comprehensive portfolio offering across tax, audit, firm management, and research and learning. With our extensive cloud offering in CCH Axcess, we remain well-positioned to drive future growth. With our growing audit portfolio, we're well-positioned for global expansion with our customers.

We face several formidable competitors, but through our early and consistent investment in innovation, we have maintained and even grown our market share in North America. This is a market where deep domain expertise and trusted reputation in the areas of tax, audit, and firm management, combined with state-of-the-art technology, creates a competitive moat that is hard for new entrants to overcome unless they're willing to make the kind of investments we have made and will continue to make in the future. Now looking to the future, we'll continue to invest in driving innovation that grows our expert solutions and extends our market reach. Opportunities to further invest in no-touch returns, leveraging source data extraction, expanded APIs, and advanced technologies.

We're continuing to expand browser-based capabilities by market, accelerating the opportunity for cross-sell and upsell across CCH Axcess. We continue to focus on the expansion of market share through both new logo acquisition on core platforms and expansion of customer wallet share. This is our land and expand strategy that gains a foothold, usually in tax or audit, and then looks at opportunities to expand across the rest of the portfolio. We also plan to further commercialize APIs in the CCH Axcess Marketplace to serve as a growing online resource center for firms to find software integrations that leverage the data in their systems and enable firms to automate many of the most time-consuming tasks in their tax, audit, and firm management workflows.

Finally, we intend to invest in the tool sets that support efficient firm migrations from on-premise solutions to the cloud-based CCH Axcess platform and investment in our digital customer experience through the continued evolution and standardization of our back office. Thanks for listening. I'll now pass it over to Ralf Gärtner, Senior Vice President and General Manager of TAA Corporate Performance Solutions, who will provide you with a deep dive into CCH Tagetik.

Ralf Gärtner
Senior Vice President and General Manager of Corporate Performance Solutions, Wolters Kluwer

Thank you, Jason, and good day. CCH Tagetik is a leading Corporate Performance Management platform supporting the office of CFO, enabling finance functions in large and global enterprises to propel their strategy with faster and better-informed decisions. Like CCH Axcess, CCH Tagetik is a unified, integrated platform. That means that every solution, whether it is consolidation or financial planning or operational forecasting, are all using the same advanced technology capabilities from the platform. For example, this includes AI-based predictive intelligence technology, workflow capability, unified data management, and all the APIs that connect CCH Tagetik to the multiple enterprise resource planning ERP systems typically used within the medium and large enterprises. Currently used by 1,600 corporations, CCH Tagetik can be used in almost all industry verticals.

Today, we are holding strong positions in 14 industry sectors, including banking and financial services, insurance, automotive first and second-tier suppliers, manufacturing, and consumer goods. Amongst other customers, this includes worldwide leading brands like Franklin Templeton, Generali, Mercedes, Toyota, Nissan, Aegon, Prada, Gucci, and Keurig Dr Pepper. CCH Tagetik is organized into three product groups. In the red, you can see the financial close process that is fully automating the full process within the office of CFO, from account reconciliation to consolidation and disclosure management, like annual reports, quarterly reports, and, in fact, management reporting. CCH Tagetik is, in fact, the full close to disclose solution. We call it the Finance Intelligence Platform. By automating the financial process using advanced technologies, enterprises gain time that they can use to deliver better forecasting and produce actionable insights, not only on financials, but on operational data as well.

In the green, you can see the predictive integrated business planning capabilities that include financial planning and analytics as well as operational planning, like supply chain planning, demand planning, and others, fully leveraging advanced technology like AI or ML. In the blue, you see the regulatory reporting capabilities. Our solution makes regulatory reporting simple for the office of CFO as it is part of the same workflow. This includes solutions for IFRS 16, IFRS 17, ESG performance management, and corporate direct tax, including the current Pillar Two minimum taxation. The CCH Tagetik platform supports the whole finance transformation journey, which is, in fact, the digitization within the office of CFO. The office of CFO transforms from a gatekeeper of financial data to become an advisor to all business units within an enterprise. CCH Tagetik fully supports the finance leaders during their journey.

Most companies start their experience buying one out of the three product groups, using three to five modules at the beginning of their journey, while further expanding the usage of CCH Tagetik into the other product groups and into other parts of the organization. For example, from the corporate into the operational business or from 1 country into others, adding additional modules and users. Founded in Lucca, Italy in 2007, CCH Tagetik was acquired in 2017 by Wolters Kluwer as a true finance intelligence platform that supports the office of finance during their finance transformation journey. Since the acquisition, Wolters Kluwer has significantly invested in both geographic market expansion as well as product development.

For example, in 2019, we launched our account reconciliation solution that further automates the financial close process. In 2020, amongst other innovations, we launched our explainable predictive intelligence module that helps enterprises better forecast their business and drive simulations based on internal and external data sources. This innovation was something that was very important for enterprises during the uncertain times of COVID-19. In 2021, we entered into the integrated business planning market based on the acquisition of Vanguard Software, a US-based specialist within the sales and operational planning that we fully integrated into the CCH Tagetik platform to offer the strong integration of both the financial and operational planning. In March this year, we launched our new ESG and sustainability performance management solution to support customers with non-financial KPIs, all within the same platform and process landscape where they already plan and consolidate their financials.

We expand our market reach significantly across the globe, and while we operated in Europe and North America since 2017, we expanded significantly within APAC, just this year expanding into South Korea. Importantly, we have also rapidly expanded our network of implementation partners to accelerate deployment. We work together with hundreds of local and regional expert partners, as well as with all the Big Four accounting firms, Accenture, and other global service providers. As already mentioned, CCH Tagetik enables enterprises to spend less time managing and controlling financial and non-financial processes, and to spend more time focusing on strategy, delivering business insights, and driving the business. CCH Tagetik creates significant benefits for the different worlds within the office of CFO as well as for the IT department.

For example, CCH Tagetik empowers the office of CFO to make faster and better informed decisions and to streamline reporting, analytics, and compliance. CCH Tagetik helps CFOs retain and develop top performers as they experience and improve reputation within the enterprise and execute higher value work. Additionally, they can better optimize resources and capitalize on big data to improve decision-making. The FP&A professionals can handle in-depth planning and analytics, more comprehensive plans, and forecast with faster results. CCH Tagetik aligns operations and finance to provide insights for sustainable value creation and actions. The controller can easily handle new regulatory reporting and in-depth analytics with less reconciliations and spending more time for analysis with faster, more reliable, and auditable results. Last but least, the IT professionals significantly benefit from CCH Tagetik.

IT can provide the office of finance with just one unified platform that is easy to maintain, fits into almost every IT architecture landscape, works together with different ERP systems, and allows a reliable master data management process. For both IT and the office of CFO, CCH Tagetik helps to establish a data governance strategy for corporations working in a very diverse IT landscape. Very importantly, CCH Tagetik supports the market leading hyperscalers like AWS and Microsoft Azure. CCH Tagetik runs natively on SAP HANA and is directly integrated into SAP's ERP system S/4HANA, which is a huge benefit for every IT department working in that environment. CCH Tagetik holds a leading specialist position in the EUR 5 billion global CPM market that is growing 6% year-over-year. Historically, the major ERP players, SAP, Oracle, as well as IBM, dominated that market.

They lost market share as the so-called specialized vendors like CCH Tagetik grow significantly faster than the market. This is mainly driven by the fact that enterprises are replacing their fragmented legacy solutions with a unified finance intelligence platform that can be integrated into different IT landscapes and sit on top of the ERPs. A second growth driver is in financial planning and comes at a time when many companies are replacing Excel solutions with integrated operational planning tools to arrive at one reliable integrated business planning view that requires a single source of truth. Amongst the so-called specialized vendors, CCH Tagetik is in a very well-positioned as we are holding a strong position in both financial close as well as integrated business planning and regulatory reporting. Finally, there are 2 important regulatory changes currently impacting the office of CFO.

The ESG regulatory reporting driven by the ESG regulation in the European Union, and the upcoming so-called Pillar Two taxation or the minimum 15% taxation ruling. Looking forward, CCH Tagetik will continue to expand the geographic footprint and to further deliver innovations for the office of CFO in line with what they need to drive their finance transformation. CCH Tagetik's success is based on the strategy to further expand our market reach as well as to continuously deliver innovative product expansions for the office of CFO. In particular, we are currently working to further automate the financial close process, including a unique offering for corporate global direct tax and for managing the Pillar Two taxation. We are going to further expand our predictive intelligence-based integrated business planning offering, including operational planning like HR planning and by further delivering insights based on best-in-class analytics and reporting.

While we just launched our new ESG performance management, we are further expanding the scope into planning and forecasting to allow enterprises a holistic view of all their financial and non-financial and ESG-related planning data and actuals. We are evolving our go-to-market by further driving partnerships with implementation companies across the world and by expanding into new geographies like South Korea. Finally, as one of our company's values of focusing on customer success, we stay committed to delivering best-in-class quality results reflected in outstanding net promoter scores known as the best in the market. Our high growth requires continual attention on talent, development, engagement, and belonging. With this, let me hand it over to Karen.

Karen Abramson
CEO of Tax and Accounting Division, Wolters Kluwer

With product superiority and continued innovation, TAA has opportunities to take advantage of extremely positive technology and regulatory trends. Cloud acceleration, Web 3.0, ESG, and Pillar Two for corporate taxation. We'll continue our land and expand strategy that is driving successful growth for our expert solutions, particularly CCH Axcess and CCH Tagetik. We will never stop enhancing the customer experience and continue to focus on the customer as we strive to delight our customers as we help them manage, grow, and protect their businesses. Thank you for your time today. We'll now turn to the question and answer session.

Operator

Thank you. If you would like to ask a question, please press star followed by one on your telephone keypad now. If you change your mind, please press star followed by two. When preparing to ask your question, please ensure your device is unmuted locally. Our first question today comes from Thomas Singlehurst from Citi. Your line is open.

Thomas Singlehurst
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Citi

Good afternoon. It's Tom here from Citi. Thank you very much for the presentations. It was great to get that the detail and insight into the tech mix. A couple of questions if it's okay. First of all, high level, if the tax code becomes simpler, both for individuals and corporates, both in the U.S. and worldwide, can you talk about how that would impact your business? Does that reduce the need for what you're providing? That was the first question. Secondly, it strikes me that a lot of the sort of the core data that your products are based on, i.e. the tax code itself, is sort of universally and sort of freely accessible. Can you perhaps talk about the risk of disruptive new entrants coming in and creating a sort of competitor platforms based on that data? Or maybe putting it another way, can you just talk about how you add value to the sort of publicly available data to sort of create a competitive mode? Thank you very much.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Thank you, Tom. I think, Karen, if you could answer that question, please.

Karen Abramson
CEO of Tax and Accounting Division, Wolters Kluwer

Sure. Thank you, Tom. The U.S., as you know, has a very complex federal tax and state and local taxation regime. Over the years, there are constantly attempts to simplify it. In the end, what ends up happening is we end up getting some changes to the tax code that a new administration comes in and changes, you know, a few years later. As a result, there are thousands of changes in the rules, the rates, and the forms every year. In fact, last year, there were close to 5,500 compliance changes. That constant change is pretty regular, even when the attempt is that we're trying to simplify the tax code here in the U.S. You know, it's why people buy our products because they need that understanding of what's happening when they're sorting through that kind of regulatory change.

Sort of moving into the second part of your question, understanding the tax code and what all of those changes means requires quite a bit of specialization and expertise. We have a very large team of tax analysts who work with our software developers to update all of those solutions. Those are all updated remotely through the cloud software. It takes a lot of significant investment plus that deep and trusted expertise to understand and to keep up with the changes and to ensure that then they become part of the customer workflow. Generally speaking, what we've seen over the years is that the level of change, the level of expertise, the level of analysis that needs to be done, and the speed at which it has to be done really set up A lot of barriers to entry into the space, and they create the reason why customers do not use, for example, you know, a quick search of a free copy of the code on the IRS's website.

Thomas Singlehurst
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Citi

That's very clear. Thank you very much. I'll pop back in the queue.

Operator

Our next question comes from Nick Dempsey from Barclays. Your line is open.

Nick Dempsey
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Good afternoon. Good morning. Got three questions, please. First of all, can you talk through why it is easier to roll out new modules, new functionality, et cetera, in CCH Axcess for customers than in an on-premise solution? How materially has that supported your revenue growth rate? I mean, we do hear about that from Nancy on calls. Second question, you've had a cloud solution in the market for a number of years now. Everyone can see that that's working pretty well in terms of your growth. Why are there not really 3 or 4 such solutions where you have everything in the cloud like CCH Axcess?

What makes that so hard? Is it a question of investment, technical challenges, just execution? The third question, following on from that, really. Presumably, Thomson Reuters will ultimately have a cloud-based offering across all of the different categories that you were showing comparable to CCH Axcess. At that point, where are the next legs of innovation that will maintain your competitive moat?

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Thanks, Nick. I think those questions are good for Jason.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah, happy to, Nick, and I'll take them in the order that you asked them. In terms of taking up solutions in the cloud, that's one of the benefits and the power of CCH Axcess, is that it combines that common core database we have with the capabilities and the integrated modules. That database and that common core offers the efficiencies that allow us to deploy very rapidly.

That's separate from the data migration or conversion, which does, say, take some effort with the client, and we have professional services that support that. It allows us to deploy the innovation fairly quickly. I think tied to that is just looking at where we are in the market. We've got 14 modules available with CCH Axcess today. Most of them are recently launched. As we said, we started with about seven.

We've had new innovations like CCH Axcess Validate, CCH Axcess Client Collaboration, and CCH Axcess iQ, which are more recent modules, versus the on-premise solution, which has an existing eight modules. There's clearly more scope for growth with the cloud platform. Your second question was around really the competitive market and what's happening with other companies like Thomson. We've wondered the same thing. They're a formidable competitor, and we expect that they and others may follow us. This takes persistence and focus and investment, and it's hard to do. It requires a lot of that to continue with the investment over time. The third part, and I think related to your second question, was Thomson Reuters and their cloud-based offering.

You know, what my focus is, and really in the business, is continuing to advance our products to meet the needs of customers. We're exploring innovation, as Karen and I both talked about, in terms of new modules, new capabilities like CCH Axcess Validate, which leverages blockchain and audits. We're looking to expand browser capabilities and our no-touch returns. We've expanded the capabilities of our marketplace, which really bring the broad ecosystem to our customers across the tax, the audit, and the firm management workflows.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Great. Thank you. Next question, please.

Nick Dempsey
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

That's great. Thank you.

Operator

We now turn to Adam Berlin from UBS. Your line is open.

Adam Berlin
Executive Director and Equity Research Analyst, UBS

Hi. Good afternoon, everybody. I'll just stick with three questions, please, if I could. Firstly, there's a lot going on in lots of initiatives. Is the goal to maintain the organic growth in division, or are you trying to accelerate the rate of organic growth? That's the first question. The second question is, you talked a lot about the modules in CCH Axcess now available to customers. Is there any evidence yet that you can share with us to show that the cloud-based customers are taking more modules than the on-premise customers, and so that we should believe in the story around upsell to additional modules? The third question is about progress in Tagetik in the U.S. It just looks like you've only got a small amount of revenue in the U.S. today from Tagetik. Can you explain why the progress in the U.S. has been slow and what the strategy is to get more customers in the U.S.? What are the initiatives you're using, and is there any evidence of better progress so far in 2022? Thanks.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Thanks, Adam. I think, Nancy, could you answer the first question about organic growth for the division and whether the plan is to, you know, maintain it or accelerate it? Obviously, we can't give any additional guidance today. If the second question, Jason, you could address that one.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Yes.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Third question on CCH Tagetik and its US journey, if Ralf could take that, please.

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

Thank you, Meg. Just in terms of organic growth, just in the broad, even outside of, you know, TAA, but across all of Wolters Kluwer, you know, what we've been doing is driving a very consistent reinvestment of 8%-10% of our revenues back in innovation, and it's really the innovation that is driving organic growth improvement across Wolters Kluwer. If you look specifically at Tax & Accounting, as you'll note through the first nine months, we had 9% organic growth. There were a few things in that result that were due to non-recurring factors to North America. In general, you know, we are very pleased with the results coming out of Tax & Accounting from a growth perspective. I think what you've heard, so far today is that there's much innovation going on, across the division, and that innovation will help continue to provide us with good performance. Jason. Yep.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Hi Adam, Jason Marx. I'll take the second part of your question. Again, just to reference for CCH Axcess, we've got 14 modules, several of them being quite new into the market. In terms of our experience, on average, we see new customers with our on-premise solutions take about 1.5 modules, while our CCH Axcess customers on average take 2.5 modules. What we see is, particularly with CCH Axcess, these customers, as that cohort ages over time, they take more modules. Once you get a couple years out, the average number of modules that a CCH Axcess customer would have, a few years into the platform is about four.

Ralf Gärtner
Senior Vice President and General Manager of Corporate Performance Solutions, Wolters Kluwer

Hi, Adam. Ralf. I take your question related to CCH Tagetik in the U.S. and the. Indeed, when we acquired the company in 2017, over 85% of the revenues were from Europe, and it has been our plan to leverage the Wolters Kluwer brand and assets in the United States to drive expansion in this market. Since then, honestly, we have made very good growth here in North America. Under our ownership, the U.S. revenue of CCH Tagetik has more than tripled.

Following the acquisition of Vanguard, we have now brought several enterprise software businesses together under one leadership team, which will help drive this further. Combining forces with our U.S. corporate tax unit has put more feet on the street, a team who are already serving some of 4,000 clients. While in 2017, when we acquired CCH Tagetik, 85% of our revenues came from Europe. All of our global regions are growing these days. Let's say 70% is now European related, while in North America, we generate 20% of our revenues already.

Operator

Our next question comes from Matthew Walker from Credit Suisse. Your line is open.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

Thanks for taking the questions. I just had two. The first one was why the growth accelerated from 6% last year to 9% this year, and if you can just isolate the one-offs and strip them out, what would the growth be, what would the growth be in 2022 for the nine months if you took out the one-offs? You mentioned in the presentation around CCH Axcess that you'd increased your market share in the U.S., but you didn't really give any stats, I don't believe, around that. Can you just give us a sense of, you know, over what time period and how much you've increased your market share in the U.S.?

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Nancy, perhaps you could answer the question about the financial results. I think that's probably best addressed by you. The second question, probably Karen, was it around general market share, Matthew?

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

I think it was on Axcess. Yeah.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

I couldn't tell-

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

On Axcess.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

whether it was specifically for CCH Axcess or whether it was for tax and accounting in general.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Oh, the pie chart is for our global addressed markets on the professional side. Global, yeah. It includes Europe and Asia Pacific.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

Yeah

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

obviously a very big footprint.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

Yeah.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Karen can perhaps.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

It was just to get a sense.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

... cover a bit more about our global footprint.

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

Just to get a sense of how much the market is

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

... just in terms of. Yeah, sorry. There was a delay there. Sorry to talk over you. This is, you know, in response to your question around the organic growth. You know, we don't strip out the figures in the way that you described with backing out the sort of non-recurring part. There were one-time things that happened through the nine months that did, of course, support the 9% organic growth in Tax & Accounting. With that said, what I can say again is that all of the units are performing very well, driven by the innovation, the movement to the cloud. As you will recall, in these software businesses, we have very high retention.

The whole land and expand strategy is about finding not only new customers, but very importantly, upselling. As Jason mentioned, that's been a very critical strategy in driving the growth of CCH Axcess, as we have a significant number of modules. It's also true in Tagetik. It's true in Europe, where, you know, customers start with one or two components, and then we work to upsell them. That fundamental strategy will continue to drive growth across the enterprise. Then, Karen, if you wanna just talk about the share position broadly. Yeah.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Sure.

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah. Thank you, Matthew. In our professional markets, we're number one globally when you look across the world in terms of revenue, and that's largely because of the strength of our position in the United States and our significant footprint in Europe and Asia Pacific. Where we stand within each market in terms of share tends to be relatively different, as each of these markets are actually unique markets, and especially in Europe, they all have unique competitors.

That said, you know, in the U.S. market, this has been, I think, forever a sort of like, you know, a race, you know, a little bit ahead, a little bit ahead, a little bit ahead between Thomson Reuters and Wolters Kluwer. We continue to see that sort of neck and neck, everybody's running the race in North America. In Europe, we hold a number one or number two market position across all of the countries that we operate in. In our CPM market, in the group of specialty providers, Tagetik holds a number three position.

Operator

As a reminder, to ask any further questions, please press star 1 on your telephone keypad now. We now turn to Konrad Zomer from ABN AMRO. Your line is open.

Konrad Zomer
Senior Equity Research Analyst, ABN AMRO

Hi. Good afternoon. Good morning. Thanks for the presentation. I've got two questions, please. The first one is on the difference between the cloud-based services and the on-premise services. You've given us some few good examples of as to why the growth in cloud services would be higher. I'm still struggling a little bit to understand because from a client's perspective, what is the main reason why the growth would be so much higher? Is that because it's easier to use, or are there other reasons why the cloud, the cloud-based business, would generate higher growth? The second question is on the tax and accounting division overall. Could you give us a broad breakdown of FTE that specifically work on the content, like, the tax code or changes in the tax ruling, and the people that specifically work on the technology and the IT system behind it? Thank you.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Great. Thanks.

Konrad Zomer
Senior Equity Research Analyst, ABN AMRO

Hi.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Perhaps, Jason, you could address the first question, and then Karen can talk about the workforce.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

I sure can. Thanks, Konrad. Your question really is around deployment of cloud versus on-premise, and I think there's two components. One is the ease of deployment for the customer once we have the initial footprint in there for them. The ability to turn on additional modules is pretty straightforward. Now, again, that's different from any data migration or file migration that may need to happen, but the ability to turn on additional modules that are integrated with the common core database is pretty straightforward. What we see as a result of that is that adoption as that customer cohort ages over time.

Generally, they start with one or two modules, usually in the tax or audit space, and then they see the capabilities of document or workflow or portal or collaboration, and they bring those on within their environments. That's what's leading to that difference in the on-premise versus the cloud capabilities and just the sheer difference in the number of modules. We have 14 modules, many of them being newer within CCH Axcess.

Karen Abramson
CEO of Tax and Accounting Division, Wolters Kluwer

Conrad, It's Karen. I'll take your question related to the FTEs in the division. I think the first one you asked about was how many tax analysts across the group do we have. Because our professional footprint is very wide across the globe in the U.S., Europe, and Asia Pacific, we are employing tax analysts in all of those locations, and it's roughly around 1,000 employees across the division. The second part of your question was around our development personnel. We have development centers where we really centralize our development around the world. In the U.S., we centralize in Dallas, Texas.

In Europe, we centralize in Barcelona and in Lucca, Italy for the CPM business, which is really kind of a circle of a number of the Milan area, the Lucca area, and a little bit down south in Salerno. Then in India, we have a large facility where we do the bulk of our development work across the division. The totality of those development employees is just under 2,000.

Konrad Zomer
Senior Equity Research Analyst, ABN AMRO

Okay. Well, that's very helpful. Thank you.

Operator

We have a follow-up question from Thomas Singlehurst at Citi. Your line is open.

Thomas Singlehurst
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Citi

Hi. Hi there. Sorry. Yeah, just one follow on. I mean, you've talked at a couple of points about acquisitions and how they've played a role, not least with Tagetik itself in 2020. The question is really how you decide between buy and build when it comes to additional capabilities. Is there a sort of strict cookie-cutter type approach, or is it more of an art than a science? I'd love some, yeah, insights on how and when to use acquisition as a mode of expansion rather than building it organically. Thank you.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Karen, do you want to take that?

Karen Abramson
CEO of Tax and Accounting Division, Wolters Kluwer

Sure. Tom, we always prefer to build organically. That is our go-to position. We drive innovation. We want to build our products out as much as we can organically. However, there will be cases when there is a particular asset that would cost us too much time or cost us too much money or might take us into a little bit of an adjacency. That would be the time where we would contemplate acquisition activity. An acquisition might bring us a new technology. It might bring us market share and new customers. We do tend to try to keep our acquisitions as bolt-ons, where we, you know, look at something that's in our space already and we're adding that market share, their customer acquisition, or some kind of technology that will advance the organic activity that's already going on.

Thomas Singlehurst
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Citi

Perfect. A bit of a leading question, obviously, but, I mean, is there any obvious sort of large gap or white space in terms of the offering as far as you see it, or do you anticipate the build-out of capabilities in M&A to be sort of?

You know, old one in nature, I suppose.

Karen Abramson
CEO of Tax and Accounting Division, Wolters Kluwer

You know, we're always looking to expand organically. We drive through our global innovation tournament, through our code games innovation tournament. We're always driving that innovation to continue to build out the suites. We learn what our customers need next as we develop new products. As we will add a module to CCH Axcess or CCH Tagetik, the customer's workflow changes, right? We've changed something. It's made it easier. It's made it faster. It's made it better.

Now they realize, it's a little like peeling an onion. Now they realize, "Hey, there's something else that would make my workflow even better." When that happens, you know, we'll go, and we'll start to build what that next innovation is. We continue to advance their workflows, and this is why you hear Jason saying that we see a 10%-30% efficiency gain that our customers report on the CCH Axcess platform because each time that we're delivering one of these new modules, we're really advancing what they do.

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah. I would say broadly on acquisitions, right? Is that, you know, all of Wolters Kluwer's strategy now is not dependent at all on acquisitions in terms of meeting the goals that we have. We look primarily to organic growth. I would say partnerships are playing more of a role today than they did a few years ago. The marketplace that Jason referenced is very critical to advancing, you know, advancing the concept of the ecosystem and partnerships. Then, of course, we're always looking for some acquisitions that might accelerate what we're doing, whether it's from a technology perspective or, as Karen referenced, sometimes a market share perspective. I would say, you know, organic growth is really, you know, the cornerstone of what we're focused on.

Thomas Singlehurst
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Citi

That's very clear. Thank you very much.

Operator

We have another follow-up from Adam Berlin at UBS. Your line is open.

Adam Berlin
Executive Director and Equity Research Analyst, UBS

Thanks for letting me ask a couple more. The first question is, can you just talk about the ERP players and IBM, SAP, they've seem to have given up half of this market in Corporate Performance Solutions. You know, why are customers using the specialty providers instead of the incumbents, and are the incumbents fighting back? What's their strategy to deal with this kind of loss of market share? That's the first question.

Secondly, can you go into a bit more detail about the sales process, particularly for Tagetik? Like, is it sold by your own sales team, or is it more often sold by IT integrators and the accounting firms? You know, what's the Can you give us any sense of the channel split or how that works? Just wasn't quite sure from listening to exactly what the dominant model is. Thanks very much.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Great. Thanks. Ralf, can you take both of those?

Ralf Gärtner
Senior Vice President and General Manager of Corporate Performance Solutions, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah, of course, I can start. Indeed, our significant market is within, let's say, the ERP businesses. Lots of, let's say, companies that are running ERP are choosing, let's say, solutions like CCH Tagetik. Why? Because there are two important benefits. Number one, a corporate performance solution like CCH Tagetik is really a platform solution. It's a solution, let's say, where the office of CFO is running all the activities behind the accounting, whether it's consolidation, financial close, integrated business planning on one reliable platform, rather than, let's say, having isolated solutions. That's a very important differentiator. The second important piece is the structure in an enterprise. Most of enterprises in the world, they are dealing with a number of ERP systems from one vendors in different versions or let's say from multiple vendors.

It's very important in the office of CFO to have one reliable source where you have all your financial and key non-financial data together. It says it's the advantage of the specialized vendors like CCH Tagetik, in particular of CCH Tagetik, to sit on top of the different ERPs and to connect with all ERPs and from there, let's say, to create really one single source of truth for the office of CFO. These are, let's say, the most important advantages, I would say. The second question again, can you repeat what it is exactly? It was related to sales. Was the sales strategy?

Nancy McKinstry
CEO and Chair of the Executive Board, Wolters Kluwer

How does it go to market?

Ralf Gärtner
Senior Vice President and General Manager of Corporate Performance Solutions, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah. Perfect. Thanks. Let me take that as well. CCH Tagetik is a direct sales organization. We are selling directly across the world. We sell in Europe. We sell in North America. We sell in APAC. The sales is done by our own sales team. Partnership plays a very significant role in our ecosystem. Why? Because the implementation of CCH Tagetik is mainly done, let's say, by boutique partners, by the Big Fours, by the Accentures in the world. Let's say we are dealing together, let's say we are working together nicely with all, let's say the Big Four companies, with the Accentures in the world to really create this customer experience within the office of CFO based on our direct sales force.

Operator

We have another follow-up from Nick Dempsey at Barclays. Your line is open.

Nick Dempsey
Managing Director and Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Yeah. I just wanted to ask about Intuit. It's there on your chart on slide 10. I know they've been in the market, your specific market with Lacerte for a long time now, so it's not like a new entrant. Do you see much overlap with them, or do they aim more at the smaller end of the market, you more at the middle? Where you do overlap, should we worry that you're bumping into a very significant software player that has a lot more scale than you?

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Jason, could you take that one?

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Sure. Happy to, Nick. Look, you're right. We look at Intuit as a formidable competitor, but their strategy and their focus is a bit different. Their priority has been on the consumer side of tax. What's referred to as the do it yourself market. Within the SMEs, the small to medium enterprise on the accounting and bookkeeping side. That's been their primary strategic focus. They have a professional unit that we do see. We run into them on the lower end of our market. That's primarily as a distribution vehicle for them into the small business. Again, we see them in the smaller end of our professional market, but that's primarily where we run into them.

Operator

Our final question comes from Tolu Younus from Lord Abbett. Your line is open.

Tolu Younus
Equity Research Analyst, Lord Abbett

Yes. Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for the time. Just two questions. One was the migration from CCH ProSystem fx to CCH Axcess. Is that a concerted effort to get customers to migrate to the cloud solution? What are the margin implications of that? Second, just a question on comparing CCH Tagetik to another CPM pure play that you have in your table, Anaplan, recently acquired. Just pulling up their financials, they, you know, they were, you know, they were generating nearly EUR 600 million in revenue, 75% gross margins and growing nearly 30%. Are those the types of KPIs that, you know, you aspire to or you can generate? If you could just speak to sort of, you know, comparison to Anaplan financials, that would be helpful. Thank you.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Jason, if you could perhaps tackle the margin question on what happens as we migrate people to the cloud and all the new modules you're launching, and if Ralph could perhaps comment on Anaplan.

Jason Marx
CEO, Tax and Accounting, Wolters Kluwer

Sure. Really two parts to that. In terms of the overall migration strategy, you know, we are following the path that our customers want in terms of migration. We expect that transition to happen over the next five-eight years. Today, about 90% of what we do in selling is migration of existing customers, primarily from ProSystem fx, over into CCH Axcess. About 10% are pure new logos coming into Wolters Kluwer. In terms of the margin implications and pricing, in the early days, they were priced pretty much the same. Because we've added so much more value to the CCH Axcess platform, we've gradually moved that pricing up. Nowadays, Axcess is priced as a premium to the on-premise solution. If the customer takes the equivalent number of modules when they come on board, the revenue for us is higher.

Ralf Gärtner
Senior Vice President and General Manager of Corporate Performance Solutions, Wolters Kluwer

Yeah, Jason, let me take up the second question related to Anaplan. As you know, let's say over the last couple of years, Anaplan invested very aggressively into sales and marketing, driving their growth with results that they have been, let's say, a quite significant loss-making for many, many years. They've been acquired, as you know, I think it was in June, by Thoma Bravo. Just it appears that a couple of months ago, the company has been streamlining its cost base, restructuring. I think it was just last week when they announced the new CEO that gave the statement that it's Anaplan's strategy to drive profitable growth now.

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Great.

Operator

This concludes our Q&A.

Matthew Walker
Senior Equity Research Analyst, Credit Suisse

Well...[crosstalk]

Well-

Meg Geldens
Vice President of Investor Relations, Wolters Kluwer

Sorry, Matt. I think we'll leave it there. Go ahead. Sorry. It's almost quarter past the hour. I think we're trying to wrap up pretty soon. I wanna say thank you to all the listeners for listening and for the great questions from the analysts and the great answers and presentations from our speakers. Thank you all very much.

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