Earnings Call: H2 2021

Aug 24, 2021

Good afternoon and welcome to Calix Limited's FY21 Full Year Results Webinar. From the company today, we have CEO and Managing Director Phil Hodgson and the Chief Financial Officer and Company Secretary, Darren Charles. Phil and Darren will run through a brief investor presentation this afternoon and followed by Q and A segment. To ask a question, please do so via the Q and A button at the bottom of the screen. And with no further ado, Phil, I hand it over to you. Thanks. Excellent. Thanks, Simon. And welcome everyone this afternoon. I might just scroll down a couple of slides just to Talk about a theme, I guess, that's, emerging over the last 6 months, quite remarkably, which is Environment, Social and Governance Investing. And that theme is really strengthening and is the company, as I'll cover, is really well positioned to benefit From that investment theme. All of the lines of business that I'll be talking about today are really based upon one core technology platform. It's an Australian owned and patented technology. It's just a new type of furnace or kiln, so a new way to heat stuff up. But the way we do it enables to do some pretty interesting things across sort of 3 different areas. 1 is CO2 capture when processing lime Stone, very important for the Lineman Industries. The other areas include making very high surface area materials, And that's the basis of our water, battery and biotech lines of business. And the third feature is the ability of the kiln To be electrified very easily. We've already done it at a kiln in Baxmarsh in Victoria. And that is really important as industry electrifies over the course of the next decade, as industry shifts away from fossil fuels and into, electrical power from renewable sources. So those are the 3 sort of basic advantages of the technology across these different lines of business. If we just move to the next slide. And so these lines of business, as I said, covering water, CO2, biotech advanced batteries, and sustainable processing. And our business in water is about producing a safe and environmentally friendly water treatment product. We've been in market since 2014. We completed a successful US acquisition in 2019. And the ESG, or environment, social and governance, tailwind behind that is The discharge limits are becoming much tougher in this industry. Recently, Germany was taken to court by the EU for polluting, European waterways with phosphorus and nitrogen. And so that's a really strong tailwind behind that business. In CO2 mitigation, as I mentioned before, the cement and lime industries are facing Quite significant liabilities moving forward in terms of the price of CO2 in the European emissions trading scheme. In biotech space, Increasingly, substances that kill bacteria and fungi are poisonous in of their own right and are being banned. And the ability for our high surface area magnesium oxide particles, which are safe and environmentally friendly, To be used in crop protection and marine coatings is of interest. In Advanced Batteries, we've been updating the market regularly on progress In some earlier R and D, but very successful R and D in terms of advanced battery materials development, again, all from the same core technology platform. And the most recent business that's emerging is around sustainable processing. And I'll talk a little bit about some of the achievements we've had in just the last 6 months in sustainable processing in this particularly new line of business for the core technology. If you just move to the next slide, please, Darren. So just in terms of the achievements in FY21, obviously we've seen some strong growth in our core product sales. A lot of that to do with the consolidation of the US business, successful consolidation of that business and the growth of that business into our water treatment space. Our gross margins have continued to improve there. And so that business remains a great revenue engine for the company. In CO2 mitigation, We've passed a key project milestone in our low emissions lime and cement technology, which is what we call lilac. And so that is a commercial scale demonstrator that we're going to be building in a Heidelberg cement plant in Hanover, And that's passed its 1st milestone and is now in detailed engineering design, targeting early next year to hit final investment decision. Also, we announced some MOUs, Memorands of Understanding, to develop projects in the lime space with both Adbri and Tarmac, Tarmac a subsidiary of CRH, one of the largest cement companies in the world. And so those, we're hoping to continue to move and develop into fully fledged project agreements. And then lastly, during the year, a successful participant in the Hilt CRC bid, and achieved 39,000,000 in funding from the Australian government As part of a heavy industry decarbonization effort here in Australia. So it's great to sort of see, the Australian sort of Landscape kicking in for applications of our technology, and not just overseas in Europe. In our biotech business, we continue to sell our crop protection product and Even directly to a cooperative in Netherlands called Holland Phyto, who are using it as a mancozeb Replacement Mac is there be one of the most widely used fungicides and about to be banned in the EU. So they've recommended our product as part of a suite of The treatment regime to combat fungus disease in onions and potatoes. We've also announced during the year, we had 3 materials transfer agreements So on our marine coatings products and trials have commenced with some very large coatings companies and one particularly large end user of that potential product. And we also announced During the year, we secured another $1,000,000 from the Mod Manufacturing Mod Fund, from the Australian government to Continue to upgrade our facilities at Bacchus Marsh in Victoria. In Advanced Battery Spaces, I say, we've updated the market throughout the year on some very highly Results coming from our R and D in there. And lastly, in terms of our sustainable processing, we had 3 sort of key agreements We signed during the year, 1 with Soltex, developing a pretty interesting baseline energy storage system based upon salt, but needing our electric Cal signer to do that in a sustainable way. And then last 2, one of which is with Pilbara Minerals, again, a local company here, to look at manufacturing what they call a midstream lithium salt to onshore the lithium Industry here in Australia will make Australia a very important part of the battery supply chain, but importantly, a sustainable part of that battery supply chain. And then last of all, we signed an MoU with RHI Magna Sita, the largest refractory products company in the world, to look at decarbonizing the refractory product Supply chain, again, with 1 of our calciners and again, looking at the potential to power that calciner with renewable electrons. So FY21 was a pretty substantial year for us in advancing across all of those different lines of business. In March, as most of you may be aware, we Successfully raised some capital, and we moved to an acceleration program. We weren't bootstrapping the company more, given Given the tailwinds we were seeing across the technology, so we wanted to raise a bit of capital to really start to accelerate. And we started to invest that capital during the latter half of FY 'twenty one. We just moved to the next slide, On the next slide, Just in terms of the overall financial results, and then I'll get Darren to take us through the detail. So overall, our total sales revenue and our total revenue improved nicely. Total sales revenue up 36% and total revenue 22%. You can see there the bars in the chart, The dark blue bar represents our product sales revenue that's coming from our water business, which is sort of the growing revenue engine of the company, if you like. In the top part of the chart, you can see there the sort of the dark red and the light blue bits. They represent Effectively, what the R and D incentives that we receive from the Australian government and also the gross income that we receive. And that ground income is largely associated with our European projects, where we're developing the technology with European money. And so, For our shareholders, there's not a lot that we've asked in terms of developing the technology. There's pretty big lines of business, and we've been very successful getting funding to do that. So overall, the key message is that we've had a pretty strong year in terms of total sales and revenue. And That revenue, as I say, is split between a good growth in our sales revenue and continued project and grant income, which is effectively locked away for up to 3 years. Certainly the R and D projects in Europe, we've got 3 more years of funding to come through on that. Our gross profit and our other income are up, and our margins continue to grow in our water business. And our operating profit remained positive, just As we said we would do, we continue to reinvest any extra cash we have in the business because we feel that the prospects In terms of the different lines of business and their growth and potential, a worthy of investment rather than just trying to accumulate cash. In terms of the sales breakdown, we've had some headwinds, of course, with COVID that mainly impacted our Southeast Asian business where Obviously the Chinese part, which was growing very substantially for us in aquaculture, basically went to 0 over the course of the financial year. Obviously, we're looking to regrow that again. We still feel that's highly prospective, and we will continue to invest a bit to try and get that back where that was and continue its triple digit growth, which is where I was before COVID hit. Despite COVID, the US revenues continued to grow. That business has grown up about 12% since we purchased it. We did spend a lot of the last 12 months or so making sure we put out technology across that business to continue to take costs out and grow gross margin, and also obviously to continue to grow the top line revenue. So that business continues to be a very good Form before us and despite COVID, continues to grow nicely. Overall, the gross margins for the business grew to about 27%. That's down a little bit from the half year, but certainly up compared to prior period. As I mentioned last time, There's a bit of seasonality in the numbers in terms of larger contracts at slightly lower margin. And also our actions in the US have generated a little bit of competition. So there's a little bit of competition coming into the marketplace as we develop that market there. But we still see that market as very highly prospective, and we should be able to hold these types of margins moving forward. So there, I guess a quick summary of the results. I'll get Darren to take you through the main financials. Yes. Thanks, Phil. So you did a great job there, Phil, in terms of outlining some of the underlying Drivers in the kind of sales and the revenue part of the business. One of the other comments that I'd just like to add there is essentially The sales revenue part of the business is entirely made up of the waterline of business. And as Phil has outlined, we now have kind of 5 distinct Lines of Business. And in FY 'twenty one, 'twenty two, we will start to see contribution in the form of engineering services income, in the sustainable processing part of the business and also in the CO2. So essentially at this point, We're a water business, in terms of sales revenue, but we're likely to start to see the other lines of business and be able to contribute. And it was On the previous slide, we were really able to sort of see how far the business has come in a very short period of time from a couple of years ago, where we had sort of under $15,000,000 of revenue and we're now reporting close to $30,000,000 in sales and other revenues. Phil touched on our gross margin and some of the opportunities in terms of we continue to look at Exploring how to drive that in the up towards the kind of 30% mark and beyond. And that's dependent upon, as we've previously talked about opportunities to build Kalsheimer in North America and that's something that's still very much on our radar. In terms of broad metrics, the way we look at the business, we like to make sure our sales and marketing expenses are covered by our gross profit. And our engineering and R and D and admin is kind of covered by some of the other grants that we've That we're able to achieve. During the year, obviously, back in March, We stressed that we were keen to start to get ahead of the investment curve, particularly in the U. S. With the opportunity being seen there. And We have added 3 or 4 new people in sales and marketing and also made some investment in plants in the US. So our gross profit was a little bit not quite in terms of where we want to be in covering that sales and marketing expenses, but that's purely about An investment decision that we flagged to kind of really take advantage of the opportunity in the U. S, which is a massive market. In terms of our grant and other project income, obviously, that's a very substantial part of our revenue streams. And that's all directed towards our R and D and supporting activities And significantly contributes to the development of our technology in the CO2 business. And Over the last 12 months, there's been obviously a further de risking in the technology. And we're really driving towards Commercialization, as we've kind of announced with a number of different MOUs and projects that we've been able to sign up just in the last few months. It's important from my perspective to stress that our R and D has been very conservatively expensed To date, including the investment in that we've made in the lilac demo plant. As commercialization is, however, we will revisit this approach To ensure we're looking to match the investment that we're making with the expected future income streams from that CO2 line of business. Our ongoing commercial discussions and our technology development to date Really reinforces our confidence in the lilac technology potential to and its potential, sorry, to be the lowest cost carbon capture technology for an industry That is Phil's flag previously, requires major investment in decarbonization technology to achieve It's net zero goals over the next decades and beyond. Our other R and D spend and investment It's really about engineering and development support for the numerous feed and pre feed works across both CO2 and the sustainable processing lines of business. And Phil touched earlier on opportunities with tarmac at Bry at RHIM. And obviously, the really exciting opportunity that we're developing in terms of supporting electrification of industry for partners such as Pilbara Minerals As it looks to onshore midstream lithium salt production opportunity as well as electrify the process. So since our cap raise in March, that investment in engineering and R and D has continued as promised. The other main area obviously of our operating expenses is admin. And we've looked at kind of essentially structuring and transaction In support, as we've kind of accelerated our activity to establish these defined lines of business Across water, CO2, sustainable processing, biotech and batteries. We want to make sure we have the right focus and discipline, Right. Funding and IP strategies to support each of those lines of business and the addressable market opportunities as they emerge. So the other element kind of, I guess, below our operating profit line is our impairment of our plant and equipment, which as I previously mentioned, we feel we take a very conservative approach to. But that's also been aligned to the government grant funding. And then there was an increase in the share based payments expense this last year compared to the prior year. But that's not the result Yet of any new scheme, that's an existing employee share scheme that we've had in place since prior to the IPO actually. And really the growth in that kind of non cash cost is essentially a result of the fact that we listed and the company Had a $0.53 share price at time of listing and obviously, we've seen significant Improvement in the value of the business. And I think we're $3.20 or just north of $3.20 today. So very significant growth in value that we've been able to deliver. Just in terms of the next slide that I have in terms of the balance sheet. And Phil mentioned the kind of key achievement during the year was obviously The capital raise in March, which was very strongly supported by new and existing institutional investors as well as retail shareholders through the share purchase plan. This has helped provide a very strong capital For us as we look to accelerate in our emerging technologies and across all of our lines of business. And we're very, Very pleased to have been able to kind of develop a very strong institutional investor register. And We've shared a copy of that with our other releases. We're very pleased with the, obviously, the institutional support that we've been able to I've received. In terms of our closing cash balance, I think Earlier in the slides where we've got we had $15,100,000 in cash in hand. We have $8,000,000 in grant and rebates receivable that we expect to receive over the course of the next 2 to 3 months. We also have further undrawn cash facilities to assist with working capital if required. And particularly in terms of helping fund the sort of expansion plans in the U. S. But we've really got a very strong balance sheet. We're very happy with our position at present. And we certainly are funded to kind of help accelerate the development across each of the lines of business. We have no debt. And it's probably not unusual for a tech company like us in terms of our stage in the cycle. And as I've said, we've that's a reflection, I guess, of the support that we've got from the investment community. Final just slide for me and a few comments there. I'll just touch briefly on the operating cash flows. And essentially, You know, I've kind of lined up there. This year's operating cash flows with last year's operating cash flows is quite a swing. Essentially, that's all to do with the Alignment timing of when we have to make project outlays with our R and D and when we might get Grant payments or research and development incentives. So we have the balance sheet to be able to support that timing mismatch, I guess. And as I said, we're quite relaxed about the operating cash flow because we've got grants that We've already locked in to sort of help to pay for everything. Essentially, the turnaround Will happen in a very short period of time as we collect the cash that we've already got slated to come in. In terms of where we spent some of our money in terms of investing cash flows as well, we previously mentioned obviously Lilac. We finished the Lilac 1 just at the end of June. So that was the bulk of our investment in plant and equipment as well as, again, as previously flagged, we're looking to expand Our manufacturing capability in the United States, which has two objectives. 1 is to Help improve margin. And then 2, it's to assist our ability to reach more customers through the Midwest and the Southern States. And that those plans are well and truly in hand. I think The only other point to mention, I think, as well as Phil has kind of previously flagged, we've got a very good pipeline of funded R and D activities through various different grants. And as Phil mentioned, Again, we received another one in terms of the Advanced Manufacturing Fund just very late in the year. And also the Hilt CRC is funded and we look forward to participating in that and helping some of the commercial development the technology development that we have planned. So, Phil, I think that those are all the kind of highlights that I wanted to cover off. I might just hand back to you, if you like. Fantastic. Thanks very much, Darren. We might just move to the next slide. So this is a, was a short call to cover off the The key financials mainly, but we will be doing a call on September 2nd, where we're doing a deep dive Into each of the lines of business, what they've achieved so far this year, and also looking forward, what our sort of target milestones are for the coming financial year. This slide sort of tries to sum up, I guess, what we delved into in more detail on September 2nd. So certainly, In the water business, we want to continue to grow in the US. Push ahead against, I guess, a bit of COVID headwind there, but in terms of Getting manufacturing and fabrication, those sorts of things done to get out of US, next US plant up and running, enter a new State, in terms of a major new US state. More news to come on that. We want to get the EU business starting to move as well and get a plant set up there. And obviously I mentioned before about re establishing our Chinese aquacal sales into the aquaculture business there. And as I mentioned, we've hired a local Chinese to be our key technical rep on the ground there to really start to kick start that back into where we were seeing growth before there. In terms of CO2, we're holding on to, waiting for EU to ratify and sign off the output document from our very first pilot cal signer in Belgium Gordon Lilac 1. And so those results should be in the public domain very soon. We're very much looking forward to releasing those results shortly. We obviously want to do a successful final investment decision if you like on lilac 2 and that's slated for early next calendar year. We've also announced 2 MOUs, as I mentioned before, and we want to convert, get some more MOUs, of course, but convert at least to the full project and license agreements over the course of the financial year. So the CO2 mitigation space is quite exciting for us and a lot is moving there quite quickly for us. In Crop Protection, we want to get a second license agreement. We've already got one, but we wanted to get that second one and the APBMA approval. Both of those are dragging it a little bit, but we really want to get moving on those and deliver those during this year. Continuing the trials on marine coatings and start to convert and report the success of those trials. And obviously, the next new biotech application is something that we're working hard on now, and hopefully we can reveal something shortly on that. In advanced batteries, we want to start to push towards commercial formats. So that means taking our cathode material and getting that into a fully commercial formatted cell for testing. And obviously that's the real first steps to start to commercialize. Of course, there's many other things in the pipeline, advanced batteries. There's several different chemistries that our technology can touch, and we really are looking forward to reporting on those other results as they start to come through as well. In sustainable processing, what we're trying to really achieve there is again, the early success we've had with developing the spodumene business with Gilbre, developing refractory business with RHI Magnesita. We start to convert those into full project license Type arrangements. And continue to develop multiple other sustainable processing applications. So a bit of a teaser for you, if you like. If we move on to the next slide, and when I say a bit of a teaser, each of those lines of business will be taken through in a reasonable amount of depth Thursday, September 2nd, the link's there on the screen. It won't be just Darren and I talking. We'll be getting some of Leaders of these lines of business in, and maybe 1 or 2 special guests as well. And we'll be going a deep dive down each of these lines of business To help get everyone's head across all the activity that's happening, what you see today is a real distillation in terms of the stuff that's going on. But, hopefully you're all available, September 2nd on Thursday from 10 to 12. I know it's a long Session, but, if you're just interested in a particular bit, we've got a fairly set agenda, so you can dial in and listen to that bit. But, hopefully, you'll be able to join us for most of That session. So that concludes, the results briefing today. Happy to take questions. I know Simon's there to Sort of fire them through to me. So Darren and I are happy to take any questions. Thanks, Phil. First question is from Seth Hoskin at Canaccord Genuity. Lilac 1 results are expected to be released to the market shortly with key results already highlighting Highlighting already, but will this include results for the extension to test electrification using alternative fuel sources? Or is that ongoing? That's ongoing. The lilac one project we didn't electrify. But in the roadmap Part of the public release of the results. There is an analysis of how an electrified calciner, And in combination with fuel, will work in a cement plant. So while there's no direct results for the lilac one, it will be part of the public release. Great. Thanks Phil. Next question. Do you see dangers in entering the Chinese market in view of the recent Import bans and tariffs on a variety of Australian products should Calix limit its exposure to this market to save 5% of revenue? Yes. Obviously, that is a threat. I don't think, magnesium hydroxide is on the Top of the list of the Chinese to hit back at the Australian economy just at this point. I wish it was. That'd be a happy problem. Suffice to say, we've had no issue so far, except for the fact that a few local Chinese have tried to copy our product. That's the only issue we've dealt with to date. It's a fairly low touch business. We export from here and get funds in the bank, before it hits the shore in China. So it's a very low risk Market approach to China. But obviously, while it's a watch point in terms of things like tariffs, etcetera, I really don't think that's a high risk at this point. Thanks, Phil. Next question from Seth Hoskin again. Are you able to provide the second half Of FY 'twenty one constant currency growth rate, it looks as if it held around 14% to 15%, assuming $0.75 So AUD at USD versus $0.70 in the previous corresponding period? Yes. Look, we don't expect those growth rates To drop away. In fact, we expect and are targeting higher growth rates. So in terms of the US Dollar rate, we're assuming about 0.735 for the coming financial year. And Our outlook is that we'd be fairly bullish to report those types of growth rates or better at that currency conversion. Great. Thanks, Phil. Next question again from Seth Hoskin. You recently commented that you're in project discussions with 6 cement and 2 lime companies. Be able to detail the level of these conversations are at, I. E, some quite advanced and or what is the typical timeline for these discussions to move to an MOU Or JV. Also, does this include conversations around LILAC3? Yeah. The discussions are quite detailed. So into project specifics. In terms of the move to an MoU, we've seen anywhere 3 months and others we've been in negotiation or discussions with for over 12. So I can't give you an average time. One thing we don't want to do is move forward, to commit without, having the right framework, if you like, for a project that It's good for the company as well as good for the customer. But look, if I was to call an average, I'd say 6 months, An average on the several that we've managed to achieve so far. But the key thing for me is to start to convert those MAUs into full license agreements. And as I've said, in the milestones that we're targeting, we see we start to convert those MOUs to full license and project agreements. So obviously start to keep front end loading the pipeline with more MOUs would be great. But, suffice to say those MOUs in reasonably detailed project discussions right now. Thanks, Phil. Just a reminder, if you did want to ask a question, please do so via the Q and A button at the bottom of the screen. Next Question from Brett Hackett, Canaccord Genuity. Can you talk to the pipeline around other potential opportunities for lithium solutions in carbon mitigation? Has it been much inbound interest Incremental to Pilbara Minerals. Yes. Look, obviously, there's several discussions taking place. And In answer with Pilbara was an interesting, I guess, a bit of a lightning rod to the lithium industry. Lithium The battery industry has only made 2 ways currently. And the majority of the processing from Hardrock is done in China, And majority of processing of alternate supplies, which is done out of lithium salts. So one thing to note about the Pilbara Minerals deal is that it's a joint development for an industry solution. So The technology is not tied into one company. We're jointly developing it together with Pilbara for the industry. And so, it's not that, we're excluding, the rest of the hard rock or spodumene industry from benefiting from the technology ultimately. So there's, you know, there's a lot of scope in this space to develop and as Australia is the largest Producer, if you like, of spodumene, and ultimately the biggest source of lithium for batteries in the world. Then we see this technology is highly prospective for local and domestic industry. Great. Thanks, Phil. Next question is from Hamish Murray at Bell Potter. Can we go through the gross profit margin in the second half of FY 'twenty one? Do we expect growth to offset these to see this go towards the 27%? You've previously spoken about a target of Over 30% gross profit. Is that still achievable? Yeah. Thanks, Hamish. Yeah. It is still achievable. Obviously, the the Gross profit, I think, at the half year was just on 30%, or just over 30%. As I said, in the latter half of the financial year In the US, which is typically driving that GP result, we see a few of the larger accounts, ramping up. Their seasonal offtake ramps up. And typically, they're on slightly lower margins. So that's started to bring the gross profit down. Just Over the whole year though, the gross profit is up compared to the prior year. So from 24% to 27%. But we want to continue to move that forward. As we continue to expand the business, we're in a bit of a price war in the Midwest at the moment, but the new market entry that we're looking at in the US into a state there He's a bit more greenfields for us. We expect higher margins as we do that. And then secondly, as Darren mentioned, ultimately the aim is to Get a Cal signer, one of our kilns somewhere in the US or South America or even Canada. And that still remains the overarching strategy. Suffice to say, our type with RHIM, who has large Magna site sources in South America, might be a good source of available Raw material for a Calcida for our US business. So the overall strategic aim in terms of that acquisition continues to be to get a Calcida somewhere in the Americas, And that will take additional cost out of the business and raise that gross margin. So our target remains to grow that business at over 30 Great. Thanks, Phil. Next question from David Erskine at Shaw and Partners. What growth in U. S. Production capacity are you planning this year? You're expecting demand and growth to match? Yes. So the production capacity we're we're planning to put on the ground is a new, MHL facility Or magnesium hydroxide liquids. So that particular facility should be capable of around 10,000 tonnes a year. Now, will we grow the business by 10,000 tonnes? Certainly not in the 1st year. We certainly put those sorts of facilities in place once we see that Over the course of, say, 3 to 5 years, that facility reaches capacity. And certainly, we want to see about 12 to 18 months payback. We've got one of those facilities in planning right now. And if our new state entry goes well, we'll get a second one on the ground over the course of the next financial year. Thanks, Phil. Next question from Haoham Shmari again at Bell Potter. Can you provide any outlook for R and D expenditure in FY22, Particularly in the context of recent funds raised to accelerate development. What the actual number will be? I might have to refer to Darren on But, we're certainly doubling down on our R and D expenditure. A lot of it associated with the lilac 2, which is entering its construction phase. Darren will provide a bit more color on the breakdown between how much that will be expensed and how much will be a capital item. But as well in our capital raise from March, we said we would be investing at least 4,500,000 in our battery development. So that investment is starting now and will continue over the course of FY 'twenty two. And the other The area that we're investing a little bit in is our sustainable sorry, our biotech business where we won that 1,000,000 in funding from the Modern Manufacturing Fund. And so that as well will be matched By some investment from our own in the R and D to continue to develop the biotech business. So I think, Darren, maybe if I throw to you for estimates of the sort of breakdown between expensed and possibly capitalized items in a number. Yes. Thanks, Phil. And thanks for the question, Hamish. I think there were some elements In FY 2021, particularly associated with Lilac 1 in terms of so our R and D was up quite A reasonable amount on the prior year, but that was primarily associated with some LILAC one costs that won't be repeated. One of the drivers of timing around some of the R and D expense over the next 18 months will be the FID Hamish for Lilac 2, Which at this point, Phil, correct me if I'm wrong, is slated for around March next year. If that comes a little bit earlier, we may Accelerate some of the investment in L2. If that comes a little bit later, obviously, we'll see more of that flow into the following financial year. So in terms of the overall R and D expense, Hamish, I don't think you'll see a step change in R and D Spence this year, FY 2020, 2021 through to 2021, 2022 because there were some one off lilac, I guess some kind of cleanup with the Lilac 1 project offset by some of the investments, obviously, that we're making With some of the engineering pre feed and feed works done. But as I've said, that'll be offset by us looking at the way in which we're treating our research and development Investment. And as I said previously, we've essentially expensed every dollar of R and D that we've done. And the accounting standards require that you capitalize all your R and D. And then you write it off over the estimated useful life. We've deferred that on the basis that kind of some of these projects we've To life, we've deferred that on the basis that kind of some of these projects we've got kind of long lead times into commercialization. Commercialization Sage is rapidly approaching as we've been working through some of these pre feed and feed opportunities. So we'll be looking to You know, make sure that the balance sheet, again, better reflects the investment that we've made to date in this asset base we've created. It's a very valuable technology base that we've created. And so like I said, I think, I don't think you'll see A kind of ramp up from, I think it was $7,000,000 I don't have the number right in front of me, in the full year and a further sort of $5,000,000 or $6,000,000 in capital. I don't think you'll see that kind of level of investment repeated. It may be a little bit lower in the year, But that's sort of subject to, you know, like I said, pre feed, sorry, converting into FID for lilac 2 And the timing on some of the investments around the kind of battery stuff that Phil's talked about as well. Hopefully that answers Thanks, Darren. Next question. In reference to the competition you noted, Is any of this based on a copy of the CFC process or is it alternatively manufactured materials? Yeah. No, it's certainly not in relation to the CFC process, which is patented and protected globally. So it's based upon water treatment products. So if this is in reference to the US business, I'll just read it. It's related To water treatment products that we're directly competing against. So caustic is one of those, caustic soda. Caustic soda goes through quite some price cycles. It's pretty nasty stuff, But we compete directly against it. In fact, part of the part of what we're doing is trying to replace caustic with a safer and more environmentally friendly product. The other competitor is a magnesium hydroxide liquid, similar to ours, but not quite the same. It's made differently, and it's typically more expensive to make the alternate route. And so What we did in Australia, which was to achieve about 40% market share with the way we make it, which has, because of Our technology and our process, we have logistics savings, etcetera, that allows us to make it a bit more cheaply. That's what we're leveraging in the US to grow the business there. So they're the sort of 2 different elements of competition, if you like, none of which are associated with our core technology. Thanks, Phil. Next question, how protected is Calyxt from copyrightIP theft from other jurisdictions around the world? We I have 3 levels, if you like, of patent protection around a lot of the aspects of our water business. We've Patent protected the core calcining technology. We're patent protected the way we make our water treatment product, the magnesium hydroxide liquid. And then where there are specialist applications for that, we wrap a patent around that if we can as well. We're patented in all the major economies. So most so the US, obviously, Canada, China, Europe, and elements of Southeast Asia as and when We're entering the market. We'll enter the market with a product there. We'll have a highly prospective market that we want to enter there. So in terms of intellectual property protection, we've got, I think, 25 patent families as it stands today Covering the core technology and its applications. All right. Thanks, Phil. Next question, could you please make a comment on Calix's marketing strategy to display sodium hydroxide in water treatment and how successful you have been in capturing market share in water treatment utilities? Yeah. But the marketing strategy is 2 pretty simple things. The product is is, well, he's he's a little sample of product. You've probably seen me do this before. This is magnesium hydroxide liquid. This is about 30% more powerful than caustic soda. If caustic soda was sitting on my finger, my finger would be dissolving away right now, and you'd want to get me to hospital pretty quickly. And you certainly couldn't do this with caustic soda. So that's a much more powerful alkali but entirely safe. That's our first selling point. The second selling point is although caustic has price cycles, which A global commodity sort of always has. On an average basis our product is cheaper, and that's because it's Stronger in terms of its alkalinity, and then of course the way we make it as well. How successful have we been? Certainly in the US, the business there has grown very successfully on the back of replacement of caustic soda Over the longer term, there are cycles where caustic gets cheaper again and they have a bit of a harder time, but then the majority of the time, they're very successful. The back of the growth of the business to date since we purchased it has been off the back of a conversion of caustic customers to magnesium hydroxide liquid. We want to obviously accelerate that growth, and that's why we're looking at new market entries in terms of the new states, etcetera. So the strategy in the US, which is about displacement of caustic, is about seeding new customers because we make a much more stable product With our technology. We enter a new area. We start to build the business there. Once that area can support a local Facility that makes this stuff. We construct that local facility and then use that as a base to continue expansion. So that's the basis of the Strategy. And hopefully, that explains how what the simple cell is, if you like, for displacement of caustic soda. Thanks, Phil. Next question. Does the calcined technology have any potential application in bauxite processing industry? There's probably about 3 or 4 different areas where in aluminium production, there's a calcination step. Aluminium is one of the most electrically intensive industries in the world. And so certainly, As we look to our sustainable processing business, we're looking at some very interesting applications of the of the calciner, in Heavy Industry in Australia. So, it should come as no surprise that, that is a potential application. Alcoa and South32 are both part of the Heavy Industry Low Emissions Technology CRC. So they're already part of a group that we're in discussion with about several different projects. And aluminium and the aluminium industry is a very significant player there. I'll just touch on aluminium in general because Europe is the largest export market for aluminium from this country. The Europeans are introducing a carbon tariff from 2023, and so that places a lot of pressure on aluminium to be a low carbon material to Enable those exports to continue to efficiently move across to Europe. So the aluminium industry is no longer Sitting back, they are being very proactive in trying to learn how to reduce their carbon footprint to maintain themselves basically as carbon tariffs and these sorts of Thanks. So final question from Dave Erskine at Shaw's. Regarding LILAC, are you getting any closer to finalizing any royalty agreements? And if so would that likely involve an upfront cash payment? We're continuing the discussions David. As I say we've got 6 cement companies and 4 loan companies. 2 of those loan companies converted to MOUs recently and Those discussions continue. So as long as those discussions continue, then I suppose, theoretically, if you we're getting closer. One thing we won't do is just do a biz a license agreement for the sake of it. We are going to do a license agreement that's in the best interest of the technology and our shareholders. If that means holding out, we'll hold out. Our negotiating strength only increases as time passes Because these guys are getting more and more pressure on them to do something. So yes, we are getting closer. Will it involve an upfront payment? There's all sorts of different terms that we're discussing in terms of those license agreement, and that could be the case. However, I guess one of the things that, that you will see, as Darren might have pointed out, in the revenue profile Moving forward, we will start to charge engineering fees to develop start to develop these projects with counterparties. And so the revenue stream, sure, there may be an upfront cash payment, or there may not be. We may choose instead to charge engineering fees to help these guys do feasibility studies and understand how the technology might help them decarbonize. So there's all sorts of different configurations of a potential licensing arrangement that we're looking at here. And obviously, we negotiate As best we can to get the best outcome for the technology and our shareholders. Thanks, Phil. That concludes Q and A segment. I might pass back to you to wrap it up. Excellent. Thanks very much, Simon. So thanks very much for your attention, everyone, today. Just, I guess a teaser, if you like, today for, obviously the covering of the financials in quite some detail, but a teaser, if you like, for the lines of business I don't know a lot of the questions move to the lines of business today, which I guess as they should. We've got We've had a pretty exciting year. We achieved a hell of a lot. The markets and the investment wins are strengthening For technology in a company like ours. And, hopefully, you can join us for some or all of the session on September 2nd. Details again in his packet, we'll put some more details out shortly, where we'll go into these lines of business more fully. As I say, you'll meet some of the managers heading up these lines of businesses and 1 or 2 special guests as well. So thanks very much for your attention today and look forward hopefully to speaking with you all again on September 2nd. Thanks, Phil. Thanks, Phil.