Good afternoon. This is the Caresco conference operator. Welcome and thank you for joining the DAmico International Shipping Full Year 2020 Results Conference Call. As a reminder, all participants are in listen only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions.
At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Paulo D'Amico, CEO of DAmico International Shipping. Please go ahead, sir.
Thank you. Hello to everybody. Welcome to this full year 2020 presentation. Thank you for being with us. I would jump the executive summary because we end up repeating ourselves twice.
So just to make things a little bit easier. I'll jump and just tell you as an introduction that DIS posted a net profit of 16.6% in full year 2020. And is an adjusted net result excluding the non recurring and non cash items of 22.5% for full year 2020. What I would like To point out that the Q4 2020 DIS generated a daily for average rate of 11,699. But if you blend that with our time charter coverage, It becomes 15,192, which means that the EIS got the right strategy last year as far as chartering out the fleet.
But anyhow, I'll come back later on the market And I leave the floor to Carlos Balestra on the financials. Thank you.
Yes. Thank you, Paolo. Good afternoon to everyone. Just a quick look as usual to our fleet profile. We'll start with that.
Not much has changed since the last quarter. But if we look over a longer period, of course, You'll notice that the fleet has been contracting slightly. It has been the result of the redelivery of some shorter term TCM The investors and also, of course, the result of the vessel disposals that we actively pursued towards to strengthen our Financial Structure. And last year, we sold Five vessels, 1 in JV and 4 fully owned. And therefore, we thanks to that and of course, also thanks to the good results in the year.
We managed to significantly strengthen our balance sheet We will see later. We are and we remain, of course, a predominantly MR operator. I would also Like to highlight that the TC in fleet as a proportion of the overall fleet has decreased. And today, 70% of our fleet is either owned or bareboat chartered in. For us, these are like owned vessels because we have purchase obligations.
They're just financed through leasing structures. We have a very young fleet, an average age of 6.9 years, of course, which is a result of the disposals of the older vessels in our fleet and also of the delivery of several young vessels over the last few years, 22, which we ordered since 2012 and which were delivered to us since 2014 with the last one delivered in Q4 2019. Going on to Following page, CapEx commitments. These, as we have highlighted over the last few quarters, have €5,500,000 of our estimate and relative to €12,000,000 in 2020. It's only maintenance CapEx that we have left, and it will fall further to $3,100,000 in 20 22.
Going on to the following page, the debt repayments. Yes, we would like to highlight once again that we are now we don't have any more balloons to refinance in 2021. We are fully refinanced there. So first balloons, which we will have to refinance 2022, and we will start working on that in the second half of this year. And in terms of daily debt repayments on the own vessels, we highlighted in the past already This has fallen considerably since 2019 when we finished reimbursing in the medium term facility we have with M Pesa, and it will gradually fall over the next 2 years and then more sharply in 2023.
We have a small working capital facility on some vessels, which is fully reimbursed by 2022. And thereafter, therefore, our breakeven on the owned vessels Following page here, we show the purchase options we have. We had 9. We exercised 1 in February this year on the high priority. It was a bit of an outlier.
It was by far the most expensive leasing structure we had. And it's also the only leasing structure we had on an old vessel and it has a maturity in October 2022. So we had ample cash reserves, as we'll see at the end of the year. So we decided to exercise this to save considerable amount of interest expense. And we refinanced with traditional bank debt at quite a low LTV.
Of course, The objective is then to sell this vessel at the right time. We are not in a hurry. Given the current weak markets, we're not going to be pushing for an imminent sale. That's a very good opportunity arise and possibly to dispose of this vessel over the course of the next 18 months, maximum 2 years. Going on, of the remaining options, we have 8 remaining, 6 are already exercisable, 7 are theoretically in the money, 7th auction will be exercisable at the high voyage in April already this year, so very soon.
And the Celadie Hillsong, that one we have to wait until 2024. So going on to the following page, We have a quick look here at our coverage and the average rate at which our vessels are covered. Since we last provided these figures, you will notice that the average rates for 2021 Poland, but of course, also the percentage of the fleet covered has risen. We are now around 37 and coverage for the full year 2021 through context, which is slightly below our minimum target coverage of 40% for the following 12 months. It's as some contracts Terminate, we would most likely be expanding them with the current charter.
So this percentage coverage has slightly increased, although, of course, at a lower rate than we currently average rate than we currently have given the and weak market conditions. Nonetheless, the average rates which we have Above our breakeven on the contract, I would say well above. And also the positive The outlook is that we have 51% coverage for Q1 and 43% for Q2, So for the second half of the year, there is a chance the market might show some signs of Movement. So we have a good chance of being open when more open, more having more open days as the market starts improving in Q4 2021, especially and then in 2022, our coverage is still very low at only 10%. So we are covered when the market And we will be exposed hopefully when the market will be strong or very strong in 2022.
And we in terms of the percentage of fleet that we control. It is increasingly an anchor fleet. This is as a percentage of all controlled vessels, also In vessels, it went up from 38% in Q1 2018 to 70% in Q4 2020 and an estimated 70% in fiscal year 2021. So as we continue selling some of our older vessels, this percentage will continue rising. If we go to the Following page, we have the fleet evolution, And we showed the average number of vessels controlled.
It is falling slightly over the next 2 years as a result of the redelivery of some TCN vessels. And but the spot exposure overall increases because of the lower contract coverage that I just mentioned. And therefore, in 20 '22, we have a $12,000,000 exposure for every $1,000 per day change in the in 2021. So going on to the following page, Page 13, we look also at costs here. We have been working hard to bring down our daily operating costs.
Of course, we have benefited from the fact that we have benefited from the fact that we have an increasingly younger fleet. And of course, that means lower operating costs, lower failures And also, we have benefited over the last few years from a relatively strong dollar since some of our technical management expenses are in currencies other than the U. S. And but we also have benefit from investments in technology, which allowed us to adopts condition based maintenance, which means that we can inspect parts. And we can determine much better when they have to be replaced, lessening The average life of these spare parts in our vessels significantly and also reducing off And we also did quite well in terms of G and A costs.
We have brought them down significantly since in 2018 by 20%. So there is a small increase between 2019 2020, but Very significant increase between 2018 and 20. Going on to the following page. Going on to the following page. On the net financial position, We see that the ratio between the fleet market value, The net financial position and the fleet market value is of 66% at the end of the year, And that is still a very healthy level, just slightly higher than at the end of 2019, but significantly lower than at the end of 2018.
The reason it deteriorated a bit relative to the end of 2019 That vessel values in the last quarter of the year, especially came down as a result of the weak Freight Markets. Going on to the following page. A glance here at our results, of which Paolo already provided some highlights. Overall, net result of EUR 16,600,000 in the year and excluding nonrecurring items of 22.5%.
If we look at only Q4,
The net result is of around $1,000,000 And excluding nonrecurring items, it's slightly negative of $3,600,000 But I can say that we comfortably outperformed all of our peers with regards to the Q4 results. Thanks to our both a very good performance of our vessels on the spot market and but mainly because of our contract coverage strategy, which allowed us to be very covered in Q4 of last year at a very good rate. So that helped us a lot. And in detail, if we look at the following page, we have the figures. And In Q4, we benefited from 56%, almost 57% contract coverage.
And we earned on the spot market $11,700 per day, which allowed us to ship a blended rate of almost $15,200 per day. For the full year, the spot result for our vessels is of 16,770 and the blended result including the contract coverage of 16.5 60. And I now pass it over to Paolo that will walk you over our overview of the markets and of its fundamentals. Thank you.
Thank you, Carlos. Market history in 2020 is all loan, but let's repeat it quickly. January started a good market. The fundamentals was well. But when I like COVID, there's been a demand disruption due to that.
And to head that also, Saudi Arabia and Russia start quarreling on prices. And so the price of the barrel went Well, it collapsed and it's been even negative for a few days. This pushed everybody to buy oil and the storage went up. Storage was full onshore and then they start chartering Shipped to store even more oil. This has been creating a lack of supply.
And but all this, at certain point, on the second half of the year collapse. I mean, the freight market collapsed. So the LCCs were even touching $300,000 for a few fixtures, of course, went down to 200 operating cost level. So This is history because we think that today things are bottoming up, But I mean, even in rates then but also on ships value, As Carlos said before, we suffered a little bit of a loss on the fleet market value to loans because of collection of ship prices on the Q4. At least I have to say, we already have a sentiment that is rebounding.
So I'm very I mean, I'm very positive on this point. Talking about refining, which is our main driver because it's where our demand comes from. It's forecast that the refining will grow by 5,400,000 barrel per day in 2021. And consumption oil consumption will reach 96.4 This would mean that is recovering 60% of the loss due to COVID. I remember that before COVID, we were burning around 100,000,000 barrels per day.
The global refining throughput declined during 2020 by 7,200,000 barrels and to 74.4, But we expect a recovery around 4.1 in 2021. So Touching wood, we are on our way back up again. As I said, there has been a big buildup of floating Storage on clean refined products. We had an increase from 25,000,000 barrels stored in December 2019 to a peak of 75,000,000 barrels in early May 2020. And then The unwind came in and the storage fall down to 25,000,000 barrels by the end of 2020 from the 75.
So the 50,000,000 barrel stored have been unwielded basically in 6 months. And this creates, of course, a strong market reaction, not only because we're bought and where store close to consumption, so there's no shipping around. On top of that, where more ships getting out of storage became available to the market, so an increase of supply. We still think we are on Page 41 that long term demand is there. We believe in the fundamentals.
Still the participation of oil products to the oil trade is of 1 third. So, 33% of every ton of oil moved over the sea is a clean one. And of course, believing in future better market. We see a lot of potential on our asset values. So going back again to the refinery landscape, There are a lot of changes and dramatic changes we would say.
If you look at Page 23 and Page 24 together, You will see that, for instance, Oceania, so Australia, New Zealand are losing a lot of their capacity, domestic capacity. New Zealand is closing down the only refinery they have. And Australia It's closing down from tender refinery. We used to have we are only at 4 running and probably we are going to cruise even those 4. So both Australia and New Zealand will be net total Total resilience for a majority part of Australia importer of twin products, these are ton miles.
So it's better demand for us. I can add to this that also in Europe, We had 5 refineries, which are already closed and there are talks that another 5 are going to close during the year, this is due to the lack of demand and very low margin refining margins. Heading to that, we have a very slow fleet growth. Even If we have a very lousy scrapping rate because basically very limited number of ship are going to scrapyards even if scrap value today is quite high because it's far over $400 per light ton, which is a good value. But anyhow, the crazy fleet is expect to grow by 2.6% in 2021 and 3% in 2022.
We expect, of course, pickup in demolition in 2021 due to the values that we see on the steel. As far as new building It's still a very strong concentration on the second hand market show, the new building orders are rather low. Up to now, there is More or less 10 MRs ordered. And I don't expect these big numbers going ahead. I remember that ship owners today are suffering not only because of the market, but also for Technology because we do not know yet what is going to be in the future.
And the first appointment that we have is 2,030, so it's 9 years far ahead. 9 years have nothing in the life of a ship. And we cannot get there without knowing what is the technology needed by IMO. So this is because training the newbuilding orders. So the fundamentals are there.
I have to say that Basically, we are in the hands of vaccination programs around. There is a big expectation once the world will get not totally vaccinated, but at least at 70%. So we expect a strong consumption there. I would say from a general view, I mean, And it's not only my opinion, the second half of the year should be by far better than the first half. So the market will be back to us again.
Saying that, I think that's it, I mean, also on the market session.
Thank you. Just one Quick look now at our NAV. We always end with this slide, the solution of our net asset value. Not surprisingly, it has declined since September 2020. I would say that it's important to highlight that we are trading at still a very deep discount to our NAV at around 40%.
If we take into account the share price as at the end of December And therefore, there is a significant value there because asset prices, as we have shown in the presentation, They are at historically low levels. They have decreased during the course of the second half of twenty twenty. And there is a very strong potential for a bounce back in these values once the freight rates period rates start rising as demand and supply of oil increase with the economic recovery, which will we expect, Of course, to occur during the course of the year and next year. And so we will have a double benefit, as we mentioned already in the past, which will be both that of an increasing NAV and that of a contraction in this discount to NAV. And as we also have highlighted in the past already, we do trade usually at a discount for NAV, but discount does vary very much.
And we have here we only look at year end figures. For example, at the end of December, we were at a discount of 5% to our NAV only. And there were Some brief periods where we were actually at the premium plan. And if you look today at, for example, dry bulk vessels, The dry bulk listed companies, they are trading at a actually at a premium to NAV because the market has rebounded very strongly and asset values Still haven't responded to the same extent, but of course, there's an expectation that they will rise. And therefore, the shares of the diesel dry bulk companies, several of the MRR at a small premium to NAV.
So I would say that is all for today. Thank you, and I pass it over to you for any questions you might have.
Excuse me, this is the Chorus Call conference operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Star and 2. We can't be asked to use handsets when asking questions. The first question is from Matteo Boniconi of Kepler.
Please go ahead.
Good afternoon. I have some questions. The first one is regard this decoupling, which we are Between the rates on the product tankers that I think remain currently depressed around $10,000 per day or below or in that range and the rates for the dry bulk that has skyrocketed, driven probably by cyclical recovery, particularly China and so on. You have said that you expect You believe that the rates for the product tanker have bottomed or are bottoming? Do you have any particular expectations for the past We know that is very difficult to predict what will happen.
But in your view, what could be the pattern over the next quarter for the rate of the product tanker. The second question is more on long term outlook because in this world everybody Speaking about energy transition, energy transition is happening actually and then the speed that we will see what will be, but It's a fact that there is a push for decarbonization and energy transition. According to projection, the pecan oil consumption is not around the corner, but there will be a near future in which oil consumption and also the consumption of refined products will start to structurally decline and will be probably a long term So what is your view on the future on the mid to long term future for product tankers in this environment? And the last question is as regards fleet disposal. 2020 quite intense year on free disposal.
We have now loan to value of 55.9%. You also say that you have said that the fleet erosion, fleet asset value erosion should also stop after this quite, I mean, significant erosion, which we have seen particularly in the second half of the last year. Do you
Okay. I think I'll pick it up. Certainly, I mean, what's happening in dry is totally China driven. China is buying anything. And thanks God.
So the dry side of our industry is running very well. But there is not really an immediate correlation between product tankers and drybulk because the final client of the product tanker industry is wider, let's say, than the bulk one, the dry bulk one. As I said, yes, I feel that rates are bottoming. We are doing It's not because we are better or worse, but we are doing better than crude. As a matter of fact, One of the competition we are suffering sometimes are new build crude new building ships moving on clean.
And this is due to a fact that maybe the product The product market is more flexible than crude because crude comes from A derived from A to B, from the oil well to the refinery. And it's a very fixed route, either is VLCC is Person Gulf China or Person Gulf U. S. Gulf or Person Gulf North Europe. The products, they are coming from various And the demand is created by arbitration on price of the various products.
And this can create quite substantial tonnines. For instance, today, California is mostly supplied from Korea. So you have full Pacific Ocean in between. And but this is again, is due to a price gain more than anything else. So yes, I feel the bottom is where we are.
And Also because from let's face it, as I said, the secret here is how fast we are going to be over vaccinated. And already in the United States, We believe that driving season is going to be there. Plus, there is a thing that people are press after more than a year of being closing and in lockdowns, with various lockdowns. So there is a sentiment of freedom, Let's call it. And so I would say the immediate market is going to be better.
Now how better is going to be? This is really something I can say. Looking at Talking about decarbonization, which is a big challenge of the industry. And talking also about oil consumption in the future. The first thing I have to say that our fleet We'll be streaming around for, let's say, the remaining part of this period of oil consumption because I don't think that the world will be moved to renewables at 100% in a matter of 15, 20 years totally.
I mean, it will be a gradual thing. So Clean products will be there for quite a while. On top of that, I remember that we are not carrying only petroleum products, but we are Carrying also biofuels, for instance, which are the product which We'll be sitting in between from between the fossil fuels and the renewable Energy. So biofuel will be increasing in the future and you have to move it. So there is another space for us.
So I would say that Looking ahead for the next 20 years, I think demand for us is still there and I don't feel challenged by this. Of course, we are very cautious of thinking of new building. This is one of the reasons why shippers are not building all these ships now. And we will see what is going to happen. I remember you that we have to face the change of fuels on our ships, But we still do not know in where in what sort of fuel we will end up.
So We are still in the middle of a sort of no idea of what is going to happen on the medium term. So I do not I know as far as disposal of ships, We are very opportunistic. So let's see values where we go. We don't need to sell. So as a basic point.
And let's see where asset values are going to be. And if it makes sense, we are going to Keep selling the older one. Certainly, we are going to dispose about the older one at a certain point. It's going to happen this year. I don't know.
I hope I give a good answer.
Thank you. Thank you.
The next question is from Massimo Bonizoli of Equita. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. A couple of questions for me. One is on the very low spot freight rates over the beginning of 2021. It is quite scary looking at the Clarks some prices there.
But I would like to know and to understand if your realized price on the spot market over January February are different to what we see on Clarkson and maybe You realize price or spot are higher. The second question is regarding the stop in Texas because of the or positive impact on spot freight rates because of the very important level of production from the refinery there. If you can give us some color on the market development following that stoppage and what happened.
Carlos, you answer or me?
Yes. No, I would like to follow. Of course, yes. And I believe that it is not surprising, I would say, that rates are as low as they are today. I'm actually surprised that occasionally we have some regional spikes given the lack of refining activity that we are seeing today in the world.
It's For us, usually a 2%, 3% change in demand is a big deal. I mean, it's but So what we saw in the second half of twenty twenty and the first few months of this This year is unprecedented for us. We are talking of refining tool puts in January February 2021, which are of around 77,000,000 76,000,000 barrels per day relative to EUR 83,000,000,000 at last year, the same months last year. So it is a very sharp decrease of around 5,000,000 barrels relative to last year. And It is not surprising at all that, that means that translates into a very weak market.
I would say that it is Instead, a proof of the resilience of this sector, the fact that despite this extremely sharp drop in demand, rates are actually and they tend to be better than the ones that you see in Clarksons, especially when the markets are It's a week because of triangulations optimizations that we are able to do. So yes, rates are low, but they are not as low as probably you are seeing in the Clarksons indices. The opposite usually happens then when you have a spike in the market because then there Some bags in fixing vessels that may be still employed on all the voyages, which are less profitable and Then we don't capture all the upside that you see in the rates that are published by Clarksons and by other providers. So it's And as we mentioned, I mean, fortunately, we have good contract coverage in the Q1. So that definitely helps us.
Mathew, I don't know if there was one part of your question.
Yes, for the freight rate, okay. Just the comment on Texas, if That would have an impact on your freight rate.
Yes. What's happened in the U. S. Is that, of course, the U. S.
Was already Very low throughputs before that happened. So it was a very marginal export, while historically, Over the last few years, at least, it has been a very important exporter of refined products. So rates were already very low in the Atlantic before that happened. There was some surge in imports, so some strengthening on the TC2 rates from the Northern Europe to the U. S.
Following the event. But the U. S. Still had quite ample refined product stocks, which it could work through. So what happened, it was a big drawdown in refined product stocks in the U.
S. Instead of a big surge in imports. So as we saw at the global level, refined product stocks, especially the floating, are back to the levels that we had at the end of 2019. So all the increase related to the COVID was already reabsorbed. The onshore stocks are still slightly higher, but not too far from the 5 year averages.
But of course, regionally, you have some big discrepancies. And in the U. S. Today, You are, for some products, already below the 5 year averages because of this event that you mentioned.
Okay. And just a follow-up, if I may. You were mentioning before the, let's say, long term change in eventual technologies for to reduce greenhouse gases in the Industry. Among the portfolio of technologies that may arise in few years, which are the most likely in your opinion, I don't know, ammonia like LNG or hydrogen or whatever?
Yes. There is well, I think that we have to look at this in 2 phases. I mean, there's the initial phase, which is that which will allow us to meet the 2030 targets, CO2 reduction targets, which were established by the IMO. And then there's a second phase, which is much more challenging, which will allow us to meet the CO2 reduction target of 2,050, where We have to reduce CO2 on a ton mile basis by 70% and overall CO2 emissions by 50% relative to 2,008. So it is The existing technologies are not sufficient to allow us to meet these targets of 2,050.
We have some improvements, For example, which don't require huge CapEx expenses. Instead, the 2030 targets can be met, For example, by the use of biofuels, which Paolo was referring to before and which could potentially be transporting. So that is a mixture of traditional of 20%, biofuel 30% could allow us to meet these targets, especially for the vessels, which of course already have substantial benefit relative to the conventional vessel in terms of fuel oil consumption. For the Longer term challenges, it is going to be more complicated and that there's a lot of R and D that has to happen. There's an IMO fund, which is being set up.
It has to be approved at the next Marine Environment Protection Committee meeting in June this year. And if It is approved and it needs to then be funded. It will be funded through a tax on It has to happen. Of course, there are already private initiatives, several private initiatives, some sponsored by big shipping routes that have the strong shoulders of the U. S.
And but more research a lot more research needs to happen before a final decision is made and then a big push is made towards the technology, which has been the most promising to meet these targets. Today, the front runners, I would say, are hydrogen, which, Of course, it's also talked a lot about in other areas as a clean fuel, and It could also be applicable as a fuel for shipping, but probably for the short sea Shipping more than for the deep sea shipping. For the deep sea shipping, ammonia looks More competitive. That's because the energy density of ammonia is much higher than that of hydrogen and therefore the storage base on board the vessels for the ammonia, The storage space required is less. Of course, then you need to build, of course, also all the infrastructure onshore to be able to supply this.
Ammonia is already a product which is traded and supplied because it's an important fertilizer, so It has disadvantage. And of course, there are also other challenges linked to the emissions of ammonia, which have to be addressed, but which we believe with the right investments
can be addressed.
Very clear. Thank you very much.
The next question is from Daniele Alibrandi of Stifel. Please go ahead.
Yes, good afternoon. Thanks for taking my question. I have 2. You provided us with interesting hints on What is happening? I understood that a number of refineries basically have shut down in continued regions like Australia, New Zealand and Europe, while new export oriented refineries have been added in China, example, and Middle East.
So I was wondering if you already are seeing some, I mean, the routes have been influenced by this kind of trends. And the second question is a little bit more boring, but if you You can provide us sort of indication for financial expenses for 2021. I saw that the 2020, I mean, it was down to EUR 40,000,000. So I think around EUR 30,000,000 or and what can be a good assumption. Thanks.
I'll pick up the first one and I leave a boring one to Carlos. Certainly, we are seeing an dominant position of the Chinese refining system and of the Middle Eastern one. 75% percent, 75% of the growth in refining capacity is happening in Middle East and Far East. We are refinery of last Generation, we are not producing any fuel, non residual fuel. And So extremely efficient and they have a very low competitive cost.
I would say that China became an exporter more by a mistake than willingness because they built up more the refining capacity thinking of consuming more products of what they do. Middle East instead, no. They came out with the idea of being exporters of products. But anyhow, they are dominating the Product Market today. And after, I would say, 2nd in line, after this area is United States, Which improve a lot technologically where we find capacity.
I mean, overall, I think the loser On medium term is going to be Europe, which is the biggest diesel market in the world. But of course, we have to take in consideration that decarbonization on transportation is going to happen, but here again, it's going to happen over the next 15 years. It's not going to happen tomorrow morning. So is there something which we have keep an eye on, But we shouldn't be scared, let's say, immediately now. What you said is perfectly right.
We are seeing this change of trade with more loadings in Persian Gulf and the Red Sea and more loadings from China going as far as Europe and going as far as the United States as final destination. I'll leave to Carlos for the second one.
Daniela, yes, I think we should continue seeing the trend that we, of course, of reduction in interest expenses also because LIBOR rates are at very low levels and we are not 100% covered in terms of IRS. So we are for fiscal 20 1 including our leases, which are at fixed rates, We are around 77% covered. So we do have an exposure to the floating rate. So we would expect to benefit from the very low LIBOR rates and of course the fact We have been reimbursing that. And therefore, the interest expenses to follow accordingly.
So it's definitely going to be less than the almost $40,000,000 that you saw this year, Probably a bit more than the $30,000,000 you mentioned. But I cannot be much more precise than that Because in our projections, our assumptions might not be completely aligned with yours in terms of So I wouldn't have a figure on a steady state basis, which I can provide to you, which
The next question is from Matteo Gornizoni of Kepler. Please go ahead.
Yes. Just a quick follow-up. I was seeing that the IFRS 16 liabilities in 2020 declined quite sharply, I think, to 96 million from EUR 122,000,000 in 2019. So a EUR 26,000,000 decline of IFRS 16 liabilities. Where does it come from?
And can you provide an indication for the evolution in 2021? Thanks.
Look, we cannot provide you an indication for the evolution. Maybe on a separate call, we can guide you if you provide us your model. I mean, it's simply the reimbursement A lot of these liabilities also arise from time chartered in vessels, on time charters which are not necessarily And so 1 year of reimbursements, 1 year less of time charters to be capitalized, let's say, makes a big difference to what the liability is. And that is why There is this decrease and it should continue following in the same, I would say, a very similar rate from the one you So last year, I mean in 2020. So but to be more precise, We will need to discuss with the mobile in front of us.
Gentlemen, there are no more questions registered at this time. Back to you for any closing remarks you may have.
Let me thank you for participating in this call. It's been a challenge 2020 has been a challenging year and we really hope and we think that Thank you and talk to you again at the next conference call.
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining. The conference is now over. You may disconnect the telephone. Thank you.