Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Bharat Electronics Q4FY25 earning conference call hosted by IIFL Capital Services Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions at the end of today's presentation. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing Star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Renu Baid from IIFL Capital Services Limited. Thank you. Over to you, ma'am.
Thank you. A very good morning to everyone present. On behalf of IIFL Capital, I would like to thank the management of Bharat Electronics for giving us the opportunity to.
Host the 4QFY25 earnings call from the management team.
We have with us today Mr. Manoj Jain, Chairman and Managing Director, Mr. Damodar Bhattad, Director Finance and CFO, and Mr. Sreenivas, Company Secretary. I now hand over the call to.
Mr. Manoj Jain for his opening comments.
Thereafter we can start the session with Q& A. Thank you and open to you, sir.
Thank you, madam. Good morning all. I will firstly cover the financial highlights for financial year 2024-2025. The turnover increased to INR 23,024 crore as compared to INR 19,820 crore a previous year with a growth of 16.17%. The profit before tax increased to INR 7,090 crore as compared to INR 5,335 crore previous year with a growth of 32.91%. The profit after tax also increased to INR 5,288 crore as compared to INR 4,020 crore previous year with a growth of 31.55%. The EBITDA also has increased to 29.39% as compared to 25.22% last year. The earnings per share increased to INR 7.23 as compared to INR 5.50 last year. Order book position as on the first April 2025 is INR 71,650 crore. Overall, on all the parameters, company has registered good growth.
Parameters are well within what was given to you as a target or expected performance. I hope we have increased only your expectations. Now briefly about the current geopolitical situation. You all know Bharat Electronics systems were there in all the forward areas providing offensive and defensive applications. A lot of C4I solutions developed by Bharat Electronics and used by our users were there in the field this time. You have heard a lot more through the media about Bharat Electronics involvement. Bharat Electronics teams were there in the forward area supporting our users and getting the feedback. Overall, we feel satisfied that yes, a technology developed by us was used by our user in a very, very efficient way. We got a lot of appreciation from our users presently and regarding this emergency procurement which government has now come out immediately. Still the projects are being discussed.
Various projects of Army, Navy, and Air Force are being discussed. We are actively involving ourselves for those discussions and we are hoping good orders will come under emergency procurement also for us. Otherwise also, we have a long lineup of various projects which we are expecting in this year and subsequent years. That is in brief from my side. Thank you. Thank you all.
Now start the session with Q A. Okay, thank you very much.
We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press STAR and one on their touch tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from question queue, you may press star. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Mohit Pandey from [audio distortion] . Please go ahead.
Yeah, good morning sir and thank you for the opportunity and conversations on a good set of numbers. My first question is on orders. So basically any ballpark number you would like to share on what could be the quantum of. I know you mentioned this is still under discussion, but any ballpark number on.
What could be the quantum of the?
Emergency procurement orders that would come this year. Secondly, any update you'd like to provide on the large pipeline orders such as QRSAM and Corvette link orders, that would be very helpful.
Yeah, certainly. Now EP projects, it may be a bit early, maybe another one week or so we will get the correct estimate of what all the projects which are coming which are to be done by BEL because you know EP projects are for arms and ammunition replenishment, some other spares, etc. Those and a few critical subsystems or systems which they feel are to be purchased immediately. So there is a list of so many projects and spares which we are looking at. At this stage, because these discussions only are going on, once the list is finalized, then only we will come back to you. Something like minimum 8-10 or more different line items. I am expecting immediately minimum most. It may be even more also because the list is being finalized till now. Now regarding the long term projects.
Yes, as you have told QRSAM, good progress is done on QRSAM in last year. As we told last year, we are expecting QRSAM order hopefully before March. It may slip to April-May also. Right now, we are thinking it may come by February-March itself because good progress is there on that front. Worst case, it may be shifted by Q1. That is our thing for the biggest order, which is, as I already told, around INR 30,000 crore plus order. We want to grab it in this year itself. Worst case, it will be Q1 of next year. So many other big projects are in pipeline, which we are hopeful to realize this year and subsequent years.
Yeah, thanks for that answer. Sir, if I can ask what are the other bigger pipeline projects that you're expecting this year?
Yeah, certainly. No, the thing is that is the biggest QR them. But in addition to that the NGC program, next generation Corvettes, for that there are so many items of BEL. We are expecting a major order of that subsystems because that will come from one of the shipyards only or two of the shipyards who will become L1 and L2. From them only it will come. We are hoping that majority of those subsystems, there are around 10-12 subsystems which are there on these type of ships, so those will come in this year. We are hoping Chhatrapati and Samadhi, that is a EW system, so that also we may get this year. In addition, so many other things like additional LCA requirement which HAL is pursuing. From HAL we may get the order this year only.
Some BND spares for LRT, Atulya, radar, Shakti, other GBMES like that. There is a long list, ADFCR. A long list of projects which we are hoping will come in this year. Worst case, they may slip to next year Q1 or Q2. That way we have good leads right now, order acquisition related, and we are hopeful for better next year.
Yeah, understood.
Sir, I have other questions.
I'll come back into the group. Thank you so much and wish you all the best.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Amit Dixit from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah hi. Good morning everyone and thanks for the opportunity. Congratulations for a good set of numbers. Sir, considering whatever you have discussed in the previous question. Just wanted to understand the kind of order inflow that we may expect for this year. I know there has been around INR 3,300 crore that you have received so far. What kind of order inflow do you expect this year? The subpart of this question is that given that you know we have seen skirmish on the border and missiles have been successfully deployed, don't you expect QRSAM model actually to be expedited?
Yeah, that's why I told earlier also QRSAM order related all the paper activities and other things are going on very, very fast. We have also made one team dedicated for only finalizing this contract with the user. We are hoping this may come by last quarter of this year itself. We are telling in addition to QRSAM, QRSAM may be around INR 30,000 crore, we are expecting in addition to that we are hopeful to get this year around INR 27,000 crore additional orders. If QRSAM comes in this year, total we will cross INR 50,000 crore plus this year itself. Otherwise also minimum INR 27,000 crore we are expecting this year. Of the orders which I have told you, a big list was there. These all orders definitely will give us more than INR 27,000 crore this financial year as an order book additional order.
Just a clarification, INR 30,000 crore is the total size of QRSAM or our share?
The QRSAM is we are the production agency for QRSAM, so order will come to BEL. So total INR 30,000 crore is what we are expecting as order from users to BEL. And this order actually combines Air Force and Army total requirements.
Got it sir. The second one is on the S-400. We found that S-400 was very successful in the recent clash. Project Kusha is being contemplated now as per the media reports. The size of the order could be, as per media reports, around INR 40,000 crore. What would be our share in Project Kusha?
As we have rightly told, indigenous S-400 is called Kusha and knowing the importance of this project we started investing on this project. Presently this project is driven by DRDO and BEL is a development partner for them. The DCPP we call it. We are the development partners with DRDO and we are developing jointly with them so many subsystems of the Kusha. Mainly all type of radar, different type of radars are there in that, different type of control systems. Control centers we call it. We are already nominated DCPP. System integration of this system integrator for this is yet to be finalized. We are hopeful that we will be system integrator also. In case we are system integrator then as you have indicated around INR 40,000 crore order will come to BEL.
Because system integrator only gets if they decide to have two system integrators then also definitely then 100% we will be one of them. We are confident of that. Maybe around INR 20,000 crore as per your estimate will come to us as direct order. The subsystems, which are their major subsystems of indigenous S-400, will be from Bharat Electronics. That is why we are expecting very good order book of these subsystems. Presently we are more involved in how to make this system very quickly jointly with DRDO. Our main focus right now is on the development front. Definitely orders will come in a due course of time.
Okay sir, thank you so much. I have other questions. I'll get back in the queue and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Nitin Arora from Axis Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hello.
Yes sir. You're on.
Yeah, thank you. Thank you sir for taking the question.
Sir, though you articulated the kind of emergency procurement which is happening, just on the execution side, also you see what you would have planned six months back for this year, FY 2026, is there a chance of faster execution because of the certainty of further disturbances? What is happening currently? Any change in outlook in that part on the revenue side?
Revenue side. Anyway, at the end of the call we will tell you what we are expecting this year. As you have rightly told, the need of the hour is to execute the projects faster. We are assessing that situation. Based on that situation we will see how we as our overall supporters because it is not that what we produce is manufactured within. It is with a large number of MSMEs, other vendors who are there who are supporting us. We are in constant touch with them in the last 15-20 days and seeing how we can overall make the execution faster. Internally also some process improvements. Further, we have done so jointly. Between that and discussions with our MSME and other vendors, we will come out with a plan of executing it definitely more faster than what is expected by our users.
I can assure you we are going to meet or exceed our user experience expectations. That is our goal even during this ops indoor also, whatever you expected, definitely I am confident that we have met or exceeded their expectations in terms of support, spares, and other things, and we will continue to do that by giving them earlier to the requirement deliveries so that we are doing all these things, and definitely we will execute it faster than their expectation.
Any comment on the profitability? Sir, it's been very strong Q4 specifically as well. The whole year margins are pretty much higher than your guidance. How should one look at next year? If you can comment on that, that's it.
The revenue and margins guidance will give at the end.
All the best.
Hello.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Sagar Gandhi from Invesco Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Yeah, am I audible?
Yes sir.
Yeah, yeah.
Sir, my question is on the working capital. While the performance has been outstanding, our working capital seems to have deteriorated significantly both on the receivables, inventory front, and payables also. I mean, you have cleared use of—I mean, you cleared substantial amount of liabilities. If you can comment on how do you see this receivables, inventory changing over the next few quarters?
See, if you look at our working.
Capital portion it has been fairly stable around 1.5 current assessed to current liabilities. Even the current year 31-3-2025 the current ratio is around 1.7. So receivables and inventory there's not much change as compared to the previous year. Maybe five, six working days. Five, six days is the higher, that's all.
Overall it remains same working capital.
Portion remains good and we are getting good inflows from the government side also.
Sir, your other liabilities, if you look at your cash flow, other liability section, there is a material change, INR 2,900 crore changed year over year, and consequently that has led to net cash from operating activities going down from INR 6,000 crore, INR 4,600 crore, only INR 586 crore.
No, that is if you could see, it was on account of the advances what we had received last year. Order book, the advances were slightly higher. This year, the total order book intake was slightly less, INR 18,000 only, as you are aware. Based on that, from operating to.
That extent it is less.
B ut there are no challenges on the receivable front.
Is what you confirmed.
No, no challenges. No challenges.
Yeah. Oh, thank you, sir.
That is it from my side.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Vatsal Desai from HDFC Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hello, I'm audible.
Can you come a little closer to the mic?
Hello, am I audible?
Yes sir, please go ahead.
Congratulations on a great set of numbers.
My question is again regarding the emergency procurement.
Could you give quantum of what?
Will be the size of the PICCOP procurement and what will the margins look like for those?
Again, as I told you, it may be a bit early. Maybe within, I hope within the next 8-10 days, all the IP procurement list by all the free defense users will be finalized, and then only we will have the correct estimate of what are the projects which will come to BEL in that. Today it's not appropriate for us to tell, but we are discussing for various requirements, emergency requirements from them, but how many they are going to freeze under EP and how many they will go through the normal FTP or other path that the call user has to take. Once that list is finalized, then only we will start responding and planning for quicker execution for those EP projects.
Today I can't give you the quantified figure.
Understood, sir. You also mentioned faster.
I mean you try to, you know, implement faster execution for these projects.
Will that escalated pace of execution.
Impact margins positively or negatively?
See, margins guidance including everything will be giving at the end of the conversation.
Okay.
All the situation based on that only. We will give you our final figures of the margins and others at the end of the call.
Okay, understood.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Atul Tiwari from JP Morgan. Please go ahead.
Yes, thanks a lot. Sir, my question is on NGC program. You know, could you shed some color on the size of the order that you could expect from this?
As I told we are having so many subsystems of NGC. So almost all electronics in the NGC program will be from BEL. The thing is, the subsystems finalization with the shipyards may take some time. Overall it will be of the order of INR 6,000-10,000 crore. I don't know exactly right now how much they will realize this year and how much may spill over to next year. A large amount of order, maybe largest in this year after QRSAM, will be from this NGC program. Technically it is subsystems for so different. Different orders may come from two shipyards, but put together the figure will be between INR 6,000-10,000 crore somewhere.
Okay, sir. Sir, my second question is on your exports. You know, what was the quantum of exports in FY 2025 and are you seeing increased traction in exports because of the performance of your products in the recent conflicts?
The thing is, last year I think we achieved $100 million, which was a healthy growth for us compared to overall Defense Ministry. All the productions, defense productions, what they have achieved overall, we have exceeded from that. This year we are planning around $120 million. As you have told, a lot more leads are now fructifying or may fructify based on the last geopolitical situation where our equipment solutions performed exceedingly well. That takes its own time. That takes minimum, I can say, one year for us to convert those leads or those advantageous things to an order. We have to wait for at least one year to get those orders, and execution will take another 12-18 months. On the export front, we will see right now our growth based on our previous order book, etc.
We are expecting around $120 million this year, which is again a healthy growth of more than 15%. We are targeting maybe after one or two years, based on the virtual progress we may get on these new leads, we may expect more than 20% growth. For that we have to really work hard this year to convert those leads into confirmed orders so that at the end of this year only we will let you know how much we have encased on the present technological solutions which we have to generate new leads.
Sir, a follow up question on exports again. Over the past few months we have seen European rearmament and we are given to understand that you already have some relationship with various users in Europe in supplying components and all that. Are you seeing some kind of traction for supply, you know, for European rearmament from your side?
Definitely this is good for Bharat Electronics because so many of our electronic systems, our fuses, different types of the fuses and other ammunition which we are now in. Those are really required by European countries. We are in constant touch with our internal teams, defense strategies at countries, etc., and coming out with our revised marketing plans to capture projects in those countries. As and when we capture any project, we will definitely immediately come back to you that this we have got right now. These are again leads or opportunities for us and we are working hard to convert them into orders.
Okay sir, thank you. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Jyoti Gupta from Nirmal Bang. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much, sir. Great. Tough numbers. My question is, of course you're being a defense PSU. The lineup of orders will never be an issue for you and you will continue to have very large orders. My first question is in terms of margins, we have seen a sudden jump by 4% on a year-on-year basis. Any specific reason that we see this margin which has happened? The second thing is that while I understand a lot of procurement orders will be finalized in the next seven to eight days even if they were not there. Without that, could we manage similar margins going forward if there was no such emergency situation or any of that sort? Why was other expenses?
I mean there was a sharp decline in terms of raw material and other expenses in the fourth quarter on a year-over-year basis. Could you please explain that?
Yeah, the margins increase.
What you are telling in the beginning, it's purely due to the scale of operations. The scale of operations was higher, which led to the increased margins. Material consumption remained around 55% as was in 2023-2024. The same was in 2024-2025 also. Material consumption being 55%, the scale of operations led to increase in EBITDA margin. As far as the current year margins are concerned, we'll give the guidance at the end.
Okay.
Other expenses reduction. You had asked other expenses. Last year we had a provision for intangible assets of [INR 960,000,000.]
Which was not there this year.
That led to the reduction in other expenses. Other things more or less were constant. Normal increases were there as it is for the scale of operations because of one intangible assets provision which was there in 2023-2024. Due to that, the other expenses got reduction. It has got reduced.
Okay. Other thing is in terms of as an integrator, you said so one is you said you will have for subsystems and then you're also looking at integrated becoming an integrator for some of the procurement platforms. Now my question is if you were on the how. This is irrespective of whether the orders are there or not, but on a general basis on a base case scenario, if we are on subsystems and we move to an integrator, how does that.
Really improve my margin?
Now the thing is, when we are subsystem fellow, subsystems are generally homegrown. So we have definitely good margins for that. System integrator role is a bit different and challenging because he has to take care of integrating all these subsystems and delivering the required results. The system integrator is generally the direct order. From order book point of view, being a system integrator is definitely, it will affect or it will improve my top line. Subsystems which are there, which will come anyway whether I am system integrator or not, will make my top line reasonably okay. Definitely my bottom line is more better with subsystems. Subsystem and system both are required for BEL, and especially BEL type of a company only can play the role of system integrator. Challenges at system integration are of totally different variety.
Different type of experience are required. Different type of integration skills are required in addition to project management skills. That being a last 70+ years in this field, we know all the present system, future system, legacy systems, those system integration and overall project management. For this type of a large project which covers multiple technologies like radar technology, ammunition technology, missile technology and control systems. GUIs, there are different type of some 10-12 different technologies are there. BEL is luckily working in all those technologies. We can give much more, quicker and better system integration experience to our defense users. That's why generally for these complex systems, first choice is typically BEL. Wherever they have not selected us, we are trying for that. Some of the cases as a strategy.
If they want to become two system integrators then they will select definitely based on our BEL's experience of last 70 years and all large system projects which we are handling presently also. If they give competition, we are hopeful definitely we will be one of them. That call is different, different user directed or DRDO. They will decide whether they want two system integrator or single system integrator. Personally I feel single system integrator is the right choice because you can't develop system integration capability at two different parallel places because that challenges. Synchronizing these two system integrators may be a tough call. That call I leave it to users or our DRDO friends to decide.
We will not come into that. We are capable of being system integrators, that only we are telling, and we are hopeful to be system integrators for all these bigger, larger programs.
Thank you sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Sumit Bhatnagar from LIC Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Thank you sir for this opportunity. Sir, my question is regarding project Kusha. Any timeline when we can expect.
This order FY27, FY28.
You know it is still in R&D phase. So R&D phase we can't predict the overall trial times. You know how much time it takes for different type of testing and validation by the users. I hope prototype will be available for all these things in next one, one and a half years total time frame. Because we are only developing majority of the subsystems for that. So next one, one and a half years it will be available after that. Typically for these type of systems it may take around 12-24 months of trial. Sometime it takes even 36 months also. This program is driven by DRDO, DRDL. We will give right support to them so that they can compress their timelines. Exact timelines of the project, it is better that you ask DRDO only in some different forum.
Because right now we are only giving total development support to DRDO because the program is driven by DRDO.
Okay, thank you. So that's it from my side.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Devesh Lakhotia from Ikigai Asset Manager. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi.
Congratulations firstly on a great set number.
My question was again on the margin side. Just wanted to check while you have highlighted that margin improvement is partly on.
Account of operational.
Increasing scale of operations.
Is there so a couple of.
Things on the Maria side. Is there particular segments or particular products that where you earn better margins compared to others?
Or has the margin profile at the contract signing stage itself increased over the past period? From a continuity standpoint, is it fair to assume that obviously guidance you will give later, but is it fundamentally higher?
Margins that we are looking at as a company?
As we told, the scale of operations, purely the scale of operations, led to the increased margins, and as you yourself told, the guidance for the current year will be given at the, I mean, end of the call. That is what I would like to tell on the margin front. As far as your question on whether you are on the contract signing stage and segment wise, these types of information, generally we do not tell about which segment what we earned because segment wise information we do not give, just.
I wanted to add two more lines in that these margins are going to increase further. I can assure you because we are doing real rigorous indigenization of the various system, subsystem, and even at component level, directly by BEL or by involving all our industry partners including MSMEs and startups. Of course, many of the subsystems are in-house developed. Like you have seen latest Akash program, more than 90% indigenous content was there and most of the subsystems of this were made in-house. This in-house development meeting the exact requirement and indigenization drive, these two will definitely take margins higher and higher. That much I can assure you.
Thanks,sir. .
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ranodeep S. from MAS Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Not from till now, we have released five lists of embargo. Any expectations for any sixth list being released, and is BEL slated to capture that market share? Thank you.
The PIL list you are referring I believe the Positive Indigenisation List which of not importing them. We are there in all the PILs because majority of the systems directly indirectly have defense electronics or systems in mind. We are there. We are developing so many solutions as part of TIL125 and some of the solutions we are working jointly with our other ecosystem partners. PIL6 whenever will come definitely which will help BEL because BEL main motto is indigenization or developing the systems and solutions indigenously. We are born for that mission only. All PILs are directly indirectly will definitely help BEL.
Sure, sure. Thank you for that. Sir, can you share some thoughts around we did see a post that around 299 patents BEL has now under its pocket. Is there a school of thought around monetizing it in the future or what is the guidance around it?
Let me tell you our first aim of filing these patents was to protect IP because this is a defense IP so this IP should be protected. The first aim was to protect that. As you have told yes, if somebody comes for using this or commercialization of this patent, if some real needs are there then we should commercialize that also. That is a slightly more involved process. We are in the process of finalizing the ecosystem for that because first thing is we should have a transparent way of valuation, IP valuation we call it. That should be done because I should know what is the price of this. The price and price benchmarking has to be done for these patents.
We are in the process of finalizing one or two agencies who can do this job for us, and once that is done, then only we can go and offer it to somebody who is interested in that. Today it is a bit early for me to tell how quickly I can commercialize my patent, but main aim of patent was to protect it.
Sure, sure. One last question and pardon my enthusiasm here. If I see the last 10 years.
Sales growth is at 12% and last.
10-year profit growth is 15%. This has led to an amazing 27% growth in the stock price. Any guidance in terms of where do you see the revenue growth in the next five years at least?
Again that is I am also highly optimistic so I can tell you the growth what I want to have definitely it should be minimum 15% so 15%-17.5% and after five years we want to touch even 20% but right now it is 15%-17.5% growth what I am looking at and I am confident we will definitely achieve it in next five years. About profit also as you have told it was 15% and now we are giving consistently more than 20%. We are hopeful once this indigenization and lot of in-house developed products based on our in-house R&D strengths, products and solutions are there which are meeting users' aspirations. Definitely it will be definitely more than 20%. First figure will be more than 15-17% second figure will be more than 20%.
What you have told, 27 will definitely become more than 30%-35% for you. We are hopeful for that. In the next five years, you will see we are working towards that. How much we will achieve that, God only knows. We are only putting efforts for achieving that and we are hopeful for that because of the overall ecosystem which is there. Overall strengths which we have acquired over a period of time, especially our in-house strengths, working with academia, working with startups, working with other MFME and other stakeholders in this domain. Collaborative working, even with our competitors also, we are doing now on a larger scale. With these types of strategies, I am confident we will achieve. We want to not only meet your expectation, we want to exceed your expectation.
That is all what our whole team values continuously doing and we will not disappoint.
You really appreciate the response and the long responses. Thank you so much and wishing you all the best and helping India stay safe. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your question to only one question per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, we request you to rejoin the queue. Next question is from the line of Deepak Krishnan from Kotak Institutional Securities. Please go ahead.
I just wanted to understand just one thing on the margin front. I know while you give the guidance at the end and you indicated scale, but if you look at this year also we are doing system integration LRSAM which would sort of be the biggest revenue contributor. In spite of doing much more higher system integration, we are seeing much higher margins at a gross level. Even over the last three, four years, what the numbers have been. Is there anything else that we should be aware of that from even at a gross margin level, as we go ahead and do QRSAM and some of the other system integration projects in addition to indigenization, we are seeing this huge ramp up in gross margins. Are there any thoughts over there.
The Graph this margins, whatever you are talking of, it's not only LRSAM we are doing, we are doing many, many product systems across all the SBOs. What we get is a result of combination of factors. There are some with little lesser margins, there are some with better margins. All this combination of factors is what decides the final margin. As sir rightly said in the beginning, we do system integration also and we also develop subsystems, modules, we send subsystems and modules levels also. With this combination we are able to arrive at these margins, individual margins. As I told, we will not be able to comment on that.
Sure. Just one question on the INR 27,000 crore guidance the emergency procurement will be above.
Beyond that, right?
Whatever we get from that, that is not included in the core.
What we are you talking?
We are talking of 27,000 figure as an all-inclusive figure. 3,300 of this has already been received, balance 24,000. Whatever we expect to receive in the.
Current year of course it is excluding QRSAM.
No sir. Okay, those are my questions. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang Securities. Please go ahead.
Yes sir. Thank you for the opportunity and most of the question answer already have. I have only one question in terms of achieving the growth of 15%-17% over the next four to five years what kind of investments we are making into in terms of CapEx and secondly R&D efforts. Can you talk qualitatively on these two aspects?
It will be great help for us.
Thank you.
As you know, as you have rightly told, once we have to have better growth, then we should have good products and good infrastructure. Both are required. As we have told, we are investing on both fronts, whether it is an R&D front or whether it is in CapEx front. CapEx front itself, I think this year you might have noticed we have increased our investment. I think last year it was around INR 600 crore . This year it was more than INR 900 crore, and next subsequent years we have a really good growth plan. I can assure you it will be more than INR 1,000 crore per year. We are going to invest. Exact values we will tell you from time to time, but it will be more than INR 1,000 crore per year is the investment in capital we are looking at.
We are having plans of making new factories at important locations in India which will be, some of them will be even bigger than our present establishments. We are investing heavily and we will going to invest heavily on bigger infrastructure in addition to smaller infrastructure like product support centers and other infrastructure for serving our users better. The big manufacturing setups, two or three are already in the pipeline which are going to be inaugurated very very soon. Two or three bigger investments which are actually larger than our present two big factories. You know our biggest factory is in Bengaluru complex and the second one is in Ghaziabad.
We are planning to have bigger than these two units, more units in future. In the next two to three years or maximum four years, we will see that we will start operations in those new locations also. That will take care of this year-on-year growth of 15%-17.5% and beyond. R&D also, same way, we are already scaling up. You will see further big, big programs, big R&D investments done by us, not only on the revenue side, on the manpower front also. This year itself, I think we are investing in R&D manpower alone, around 700-1,000 engineers, so that we can take up much more challenging and big programs.
Because as you have seen now we are not only at subsystem level, we are at system and solutions level. Company like the latest Akash S program you have seen or Akash program or IECCS program or BSS program. These all program requests. Not many software and hardware engineers when we are developing it, majority in house also. We are investing on R&D manpower, R&D infrastructure, R&D projects jointly with the industry partners as well as CapEx related big infrastructure investments. All these ones we are doing. I am confident that we will achieve this type of growth which I have indicated.
Thank you sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Dipen Vakil from Philip Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity and congratulations on a great set of numbers. My first question is, is it possible for you to give an order book breakup with respect to key projects that are currently outstanding in your order book?
Certainly. Certainly the biggest order book right now is LRFM. Then him Shakti Akash Army D29 EW system LRUs for our LCA 83 aircraft, the BSS project, the ADCRS Akashtis project, the Arudra radar which we received last year. These all are planned to be executed mainly this year. Overall we have around INR 71,000 crore plus of order book which is having so many items which are lined up for the next two years, typically two to three years. Out of that, what I just now told you are to be executed this year. We already planned all these major programs, how we are going to execute, and that's why we are confident we will give a good growth.
On the percentage front, these large projects would constitute how much % from your total order book.
Which. Last project.
At a large project for this year execution or total? O rder book wise, the top 12 projects constitute about 40%. 40% of the order book is from the large projects.
Got it sir. What would be your defense and non defense slate for FY2025 on revenue?
It will be around 92%-93% defense and remaining non defense.
Got it sir, thank you so much for answering my questions and all the best for FY26.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Raj Rishi from DCPL. Please go ahead.
Yeah, like the non defense part, how much do you see as a percentage of turnover in three years?
Non defense presently as I told is around 6%, 7% and when this EVM related execution are there that is typically becoming 12%-14% also we have touched typically 15% up to 15% we have touched earlier but we are focusing on other non defense avenues also. Our aim is without EVM also we want to cross 10% immediately and in longer run it should cross 15+% in non defense.
Sir, Europe is significantly ramping up its defense budgets. Do you expect BEL to benefit from that?
As I told, some of our products, arms and ammunition fuses, etc. we are planning to supply to them. One more thing where we are looking at them is a lot of contract manufacturing. This quality contract manufacturing for aerospace and defense which we are doing, we are thinking that much more scaling up will be possible for that because knowing their manufacturing constraints and knowing our infrastructure and our quality consciousness, which we have proved beyond doubt to them. They are coming up with so many systems and subsystems to manufacture in India also for their global requirements. We are working on both up fronts.
Sir, your views on, like, the perception is that post Operation Sindhu combat.
Tested Bharat Electronics products.
You mentioned in your Twitter handle also.
There's a game changer for the profile of Bharat Electronics.
Do you, what's your comments on that?
The thing is we are working for at least 20-25 years on all these technologies, especially the Tech3i programs or the large missile programs. We are working on all these things, we are supplying to our users. First time it has been used in a war-like situation. Practically how it is used, that gives us much more confidence and our users also much more confidence on this complex technological solution which we have made for them. That perception of them will not only improve our order book from Indian users but definitely it will help us to export some of these solutions or variants of these solutions to various countries worldwide. That is our aim. We are hoping for getting good export order booker from these technology which has now proved their efficacy in the real world type of situation.
Right. Last question. What's your expectation on the drone and this one drone front? How and BrahMos, how are you involved in these two projects?
BrahMos, we are involved in some two subsystems right now. I will not tell you the exact scope of those things, but definitely we are there in BrahMos, I can assure you. Is it significant, sir, changing our scope of work or contribution in BrahMos? As you know, lot many requirements are coming up, not only from India, from other countries also. So BrahMos Aerospace also has approached us for doing right investment to see that large quantities, how we can support them. We are in constant discussion with them. We have come out with plans to manufacture and even design some of the next generation subsystems for them, and you will see much more contribution from us for BrahMos also. Akash, anyway, you know we are working.
Yeah.
Same thing is on drone also.
Drone front also some 45 important drone related activities we are working and drone warfare is integral part of our present C4I solutions like you have been Akash or BSS or other program ISCPs there is a drone warfare modules in all of them. We are working on making it next generation because as you know drone related technologies keep on changing, so our drone warfare also should be always better and better. For that we have tasked our software teams or our taxi drive teams to come out with the better and better drone warfare solutions using this latest technologies of AI. That what already we have started for that.
Okay and the last question there were.
Some reports that from 5G when we go to 6G it is going to.
Be a game changer for dev tech. Like view on Bharat impact on.
Bharat electronics.
Pick 5G to 6G for telecom or which one you are referring?
Like generally if the spectrum goes from 5G to 6G for Dev Tech Def.
Electronics, a company like Bharat Electronics, is.
Going to be a game changer. What's your comment on that?
Whenever any new technology comes there is a scope of getting newer and newer orders. Sixth-generation technologies for telecom especially and networking that we are already started working with our CRLs, you may be knowing we have Central Research Laboratory, so they are looking at all this technology, how to use them and adapt them for defense needs. We are investing on those fronts in our research community. Definitely every new technology, I can tell you, will give more and more business opportunities for companies like Bharat Electronics who are there in defense electronics, which are staying because of the technological advancements. Any new technology gives us a lot of opportunity. We do not see technology as a threat, we see a new technology always as an opportunity.
Okay, thanks a lot, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Karan Gupta from Kshitij Mehta. Please go ahead.
Hello.
Yes. Please go ahead.
Is it audible?
Yes, sir.
Yeah. So. Good morning. Sir, my question is limited to first of all on the revenue side this quarter, is it some lack of qualification side that we have put it less this quarter only compared to especially previous quarters and last year?
No, we couldn't get your question fully.
Can you repeat?
Yeah. Is there any lag of execution this quarter? They reported 6.5% of growth this quarter compared to sequentially quarters and last quarter.
No. Are you talking of lack of execution or what?
Yes. Yes.
Overall, we had given a year guidance.
Growth of 15%, revenue growth and we.
Have achieved 16% cut on gutter.
As we have told earlier year also, there are some variations which happens due to the nature of products, nature of systems. Overall, our revenue guidance was 15%.
Achievement has been 16% cuter on cutter variations are there which you have.
Earlier also told in the conf calls.
Okay. The other income side which is which has been now the part of SP has done 10%-11%. What is the other income? Last two years which is increased significantly. What is the other income part?
Other income part is not counted for the EBITDA margins only and the production is counted. Other income is not a part of.
A beta margin.
Into the accountancy part of it.
Let's take it that way.
EBITDA margin is what? What is EBITDA margin?
Okay. Okay. I'm just asking what is in this other income? What is other income? Last two years.
What is there.
In the other income is the mainly interest income on term deposits.
What we get dividend income, interest income.
These are the other incomes.
Okay. Just last one, on the working capital side, the receivables have increased this quarter. The operating cash flow is comparatively significantly lower than last year. Do we have any problem? The receivable side, will it recover next year or this year? FY 2026 fully or partially?
There's no problem on the receivable side. The operating activities, cash flow from operating activities. What you are telling significant reduction. It's just a reduction due to the order. Some of the orders getting into the next year what we thought will come in the previous year we got INR 18,000. So some spillover was there as we had given in our first week of April guidance that some INR 5,000 crores negotiations were finalized and it had got spilled.
Over to the next year.
That is what led to the reduction in cash flow from operating activities. Otherwise there's no challenge on the receivables front. Overall, the difference is only 5-6 days compared to last year, which is because of the slightly increased sale in the last quarter of the current year.
Okay. Okay. How much outsourcing do we do from local manufacturers or some small companies and small businesses?
Generally our MSME procurement is in the range of 30%.
Total procurement may.
Our MSME procurement is around the range of 30%. I don't have the exact number for 2024, 2025 but it remains in the range of 35%.
Actually.
35%. What we can consider from for the overall order book. If we are executing let's say 1,000.
Some project then.
Overall domestic procurement 35% comes from MSMEs.
Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Nikhil Purohit from Fident Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Hi.
Thanks for taking my question. Just one question. I wanted to understand what products capture higher margins.
I am aware you don't give out.
Individual numbers and I do not want the margins for each product, just the products which are margin accretive for the company. That is it. Which of them?
You ask the question straight or you ask this way. It doesn't make much of a difference. You tell high margins automatically. The others are low margins. So it really doesn't make a difference. You don't ask margin product wise or you tell of the here margins.
All we tell is you don't.
Give segment wise margins. We do not tell product wise margins. We talk only of the overall margins. Definitely there will be some high margin, some low margin. All these combinations are there. There are more than 200-300 products and services we are offering. So there are combination of factors and overall margins is what we give the guidance for.
Got it sir. Okay. Thanks.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Harshit from Elara Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the opportunity and congratulations for good results. Sir, I have two questions on the order inflow side. Since you mentioned that there is a risk that it can spill over to April or May. Is this because now this year we are having emergency procurement and the budget is around INR 1.8 lakh crore? So they have to extinguish this budget. Earlier EP was not part of this spending. So because of EP spending coming in, some order may be pushed to the next year. Is that a worry for you? Secondly, if you can share some details on the Counter Drone System, sir, which has been applied. Has this been used in the conflict which happened and are you expecting any orders coming from the Counter Drone System? Thank you.
Firstly let me tell you this QRFM which I was expecting may go to next year not because of the budget. I feel budget Government of India has allocated enough and this year also as you might have seen in media reports INR 40,000-50,000 crore additional budget also they are giving. I do not see budget as a problem. QRSM is a very very big program and a lot of internal processes are there. Negotiation rounds will be there, scope of work will be there. The thing is it is jointly progressed for Indian Army and Air Force. Those types of procedural challenges only I am seeing which we cannot predict the timelines, that is why I told it may be last quarter of this year or first quarter of next year. We are expecting that to happen.
No, it is not related to budget. It is related to process, related to the time it takes for such a large program. I can tell you it will be the largest program once we receive it. What Bharat Electronics has received, because till now I think we have received the largest order book of a single order of around INR 8,000-10,000 crore only. This is INR 30,000 crore. Definitely, a lot of paperwork, a lot of processes have to be followed by all for that. That is why I am expecting it may take this much time. Single size of the business for this.
Understood. Overall size of the QRSAM is 60, right? You are only getting the first and the second regiment as in 30,000. Is that a correct understanding?
No, I never told that. Last year also we made it clear the first order of Indian Air Force and Indian Army will come to BEL because that is a combinedly processed and they are nominating BEL as their production agency. It was already nominated BEL as a production agency. This first combined order of these is around INR 30,000 crore. That order we are confident to get. After that, next order, when they will place, I do not know. That may be because of the success of the first order, they will wait or what, that the government has to tell. Right now, government is processing the first order, first biggest order, and later on only subsequent orders may come. This first order we are hopeful to get 100% to BEL only, no other fellow.
Regarding counter drone system, it is used. It has used its effectiveness in the recent op. Sindur. You have seen through media reports also, we had supplied these systems to army, Navy, and airports, and it has performed very well at all the three fronts. In addition, we have got recently order from BSF also for that, and recently one more order from army. We have got a few days back, and we are hoping to get some more repeat orders for this because it has proved its efficacy in the field conditions, and user is happy, so user is recommending it for repeat order. We are hoping to get a few more repeat orders of this counter drone system.
Do you have soft skill and hard skill both or are you only into soft, sir?
No, we are into both and this particular counter drone system which you are referring has both the features, hard kill and soft kill. Although we have some solutions which are only soft kill also.
Understood any quantum. Of per size or release like INR 50 crore, INR 100 crore, this counted on system. Would be approximately.
You might have. Seen a recently we have published.
Oh okay.
We have not given that detailed breakup but a good Counter Drone System rough value only I can tell you is around INR 25 crore-INR 50 crore is a good with hard kill soft kill both combination is around that range depending upon the configuration and spares and other support etc the value may vary but it is of that magnitude.
Understood sir.
Thank you.
Thank you very much for answering all the questions and wishing you all the best sir. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question.
I think we can wind it up enough.
Because it's already past 11.
Just if one or two more questions afterwards we should wind up, please. This is our request.
Noted sir.
Next question is from the line of Kushnahar from Electrum PMS. Please go ahead.
Yeah hi sir, thank you for the opportunity. My question was regarding. I think recently we have won some.
Orders for our software defined radios.
Could you elaborate more on what?
Kind of opportunity we are seeing in this in terms of maybe early requirements or the opportunity over the next three to five years.
What is the competitive landscape over here? Is it an in-house technology or.
Are we lead integrators for this product?
The SDR, software defined radio, is a technology in IT itself. All the radios in the field, whether it is there with Army, Navy, or airport, are being replaced by SDR. As you have told, competition is there or not. For naval program, we are supplying, I think, some five different types of SDRs, and for those, we are the single vendor because we were the first one to develop these jointly with our DRDO friends and some other industry partners, and we were the production agency for that because SDR is a complex technology in itself. All the naval programs, we are the single vendor, you can say, and we are supplying large numbers, and recent order of last, I think, few months back, we got around INR 1,000 crore plus order. That was for SDR Navy versions only.
Regarding other services like especially for the army where we have supplied all their tactical radios right now majority of them are from BEL. A few were imported also when BEL products were not there in between timeline so they were there. These all have to be replaced by now Indigenous SDRs. We are expecting of the order of roughly around 40,000-50,000 numbers of these SDRs for army in years to come. For that we are one of the leader. There will be some competition from other players. Today for one of the DRDO program we are the nominated production agency. That SDR also has come up very well. We are soon expecting big orders for that. Parallel also we are developing other form factor SDR where there is some competition.
Knowing our strengths and knowing our success for our naval and other projects of SDR, we are confident that more than 80-90% of those orders, or maybe best case 100% of those orders also, will come to BEL.
If you could help me with.
Maybe some INR crore in terms of pipeline the next three years or five years. Whatever visibility we have.
New order inflow in next three to five years will be sufficient to make our company grow more than 15%. I can assure you we are targeting around 17.5%. 15%-17.5% of growth in next five years. As I already indicated, we are confident our order book will be more than that.
Thank you for the answer but I meant about the SDR.
The SDR priceline that we are seeing.
In terms of INR crore. Okay.
SDR for naval front. I think we have got order worth around INR 2,000-3,000 crore roughly in last few years. We are expecting from maybe another INR 2,000-3,000 crore in next few years. The biggest numbers will come from army where as I told you now 40,000-50,000 numbers roughly SDR they will be requiring immediately. Tentative cost of 1 SDR I can guess is around, depending on again the configuration, [INR 1,000,000 to INR 2,000,000 to INR 3,000,000. INR 1,000,000-3,000,000] I am expecting for SDR, you can take average of INR 2,000,000. INR 2,000,000 into 40,000-50,000 is the volume expected or business volume expected of this SDR.
Right sir.
Thank you.
Thank you ladies and gentlemen. That was the last question of the day. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Renu Baid for closing comments.
Thank you.
Thank you everybody for participating patiently.
Before we close the call, I would.
Request Ashi Manoji to kindly reiterate the.
Annual guidance of fiscal 2026.
Then we can close the call.
With his closing remarks.
Thank you.
Over to you, sir.
Okay, so our guidance for financial year 2025-2026 is revenue growth around 15%. EBITDA margin around 27%. Order inflow more than INR 27,000 crore. The R&D investment definitely we want to increase. But it will be of the order of INR 1,600 crore and beyond. CapEx as I told, more than INR 1,000 crore. Defense to non-defense business typically we are expecting around 90-10 ratio. These are our guidance for year 2025-2026.
Thank you. On behalf of IIFL Capital Services Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you. Thank you all.