Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Ion Exchange India Limited's Q2 FY 2024 earnings conference call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anuj Sonpal from Valorem Advisors. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Sonpal.
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and a very warm welcome to you all. My name is Anuj Sonpal from Valorem Advisors. We represent the investor relations of Ion Exchange India Limited. On behalf of the company, I'd like to thank you all for participating in the company's earnings call for the second quarter and first half of financial year 2024. Before we begin, let me mention a short cautionary statement. Some of the statements made in today's earnings call may be forward-looking in nature. Such forward-looking statements are subject to risks and uncertainties which could cause actual results to differ from those anticipated. Such statements are based on management's beliefs as well as assumptions made by, and information currently available to management. Audiences are cautioned not to place any undue reliance on these forward-looking statements when making any investment decisions.
The purpose of today's earnings call is purely to educate and bring awareness about the company's fundamental business and financial quarter under review. Let me now introduce you to the management participating with us in today's earnings call and hand it over to them for opening remarks. We have with us Mr. Aankur Patni, Executive Director; Mr. N. M. Ranadive, Group Head of Financial Planning and Risk Management; Mr. Vasant Naik, Group Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Milind Puranik, Company Secretary. Without any further delay, I request Mr. Vasant Naik to start with his opening remarks. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Anuj. Good afternoon, everybody. It is a pleasure to welcome you to the earnings conference call for the second quarter and first half of the financial year 2024. For Q2 financial year 2024, on a consolidated basis, the company reported an operating income of INR 5,330 million, an increase of around 19% year-on-year. EBITDA was reported at INR 604 million, an increase of around 13% year-on-year. The EBITDA margins stood at 11.33%, with a net profit of INR 424 million, an increase of around 10% year-on-year. The PAT margins stood at around 7.95%. For the first half of financial year 2024, on a consolidated basis, the company reported an operating income of INR 10,122 million, an increase of around 22% year-on-year. The EBITDA was reported INR 1,092 million, an increase of around 27% year-on-year.
The EBITDA margins stood at 10.79%, and net profit was at INR 757 million, an increase of 14.5% year-on-year, with a PAT margin standing at 7.48%. In the Engineering division, the revenue for the quarter was INR 3,139 million, an increase of around 22% year-on-year. The EBIT for this segment was INR 194 million, a growth of 7% year-on-year. The segment continues to witness a healthy order flow of medium-sized jobs. The inquiry bank remains robust with some large value opportunities in the advanced stages of bidding. The Engineering segment recorded improved volumes in the second quarter on the back of a healthy order backlog. The execution of the large EPC jobs, including the UP Jal Nigam order, is expected to further pick up pace in the second half of the year.
Regarding the Sri Lanka order, the work continues, albeit at a limited pace, and we are targeting project closure by financial year 2024 end. As regards the Chemical segment, the revenue for the quarter stood at INR 1,762 million, increase of 10% year-on-year, and EBIT stood at INR 423 million, representing a growth of 12% year-on-year. The margins remained healthy and were maintained at previous quarter levels. We continue to monitor the impending threat of input price increases due to uncertainties in the global geopolitical situation. In the Consumer division segment, the revenue for the quarter was INR 576 million, an increase of 27% year-on-year. The segment has sustained the growth witnessed in the past two quarters. The company's merger application in respect of its Indian subsidiary companies with the parent holding company have been filed with the competent authorities. The same are under process.
With this, I conclude the opening remarks. We can now open the floor to the question and answer session.
Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask questions may press star and one on their touchtone phone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use only handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. We'll take the first question from the line of Akshat Mehta from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead.
Am I audible?
Yes, sir.
My first question to you is that, what are the reasons for the slower execution of Engineering segment in the first half of the year?
I'm sorry to interrupt. Sir, it would be great if you would use your handset because headphones, we are not able to hear.
You think this should be better?
Yes, sir.
Yeah.
Please continue.
My question was that, if you can just help us understand the reasons for slower execution in first half of the year in the Engineering segment, and why the margins also compared to a year-over-year basis for quarter two have also been lower.
Hello. Yes, Akshat, I got your question. You were talking about a slower pace of execution in the Engineering segment vis-à-vis the order book, did I get it right?
Yes.
While we are continuing to work towards speedy execution of the larger contracts in our order book, the pace of execution in a couple of them has been slower than what we had expected. There are some continuing procedural delays as far as the UP contract is concerned. However, as Vasant mentioned in his opening remarks, we do expect that the pace will pick up substantially in the second half of the year. With regard to the large IOC contract, there have been some delays on the Engineering front because of site-related issues, and we hope that we have that behind us now. The same in those contracts also, we will see increased pace of execution in the second half.
My second question is, sir, if you look at your working capital, in your payables, there has been a continuous decline over the last four or five quarters in terms of the number of days that have been there. What can be the reasons for the same?
Working capital decrease you are talking about?
Payables, especially payables. There's been a decrease in the payable days over the last four or five quarters. Just wanted to understand why that is happening.
Vasant, can you come in on this?
Actually, we have been building up the inventories for taking care of the higher execution which we are planning in the second half of the year, and the payables have been paid as per the due date. That's why there is a slight increase in the overall working capital level compared to the earlier quarters. We feel that as we go ahead in the second half of the year, our working capital should normalize to what was there in the financial year 2023 levels on a full year basis.
Okay. Earlier, you were taking some more credit period from your creditors for paying, and now you're paying on time. Is that what is happening? Hello?
Sir, on the management's line, I would request you to kindly unmute yourself and speak. You are on audible.
There's not been any material change in the overall credit period as far as the payables are concerned.
Sir, if I just look at the 128 has gone down from 120 days around that number to around 90 days. There's been a 30-day decline in the payables. I don't know. I'm talking about last four, five quarters, not quarter-on-quarter, year-on-year. It has been a continuing trend over one and a half years or so.
Actually, for example, the Sri Lanka contract, where now the execution is in the final stages, the back-to-back arrangements which were there, that is no more available. Those payables which are there, that is getting paid off now during the year. Maybe that is one of the reasons why the payable days have come down compared to the earlier quarters.
You still expect that it will be at FY 2023 levels going forward, correct?
Yeah. As we move ahead with the execution of the larger EPC projects where then the back-to-back terms with the civil contractors will come in place, the payables should get normalized largely at the FY 2023 level.
Okay. My next question to you, sir, is if you could share the numbers for MAPRIL during the quarter that we can kind of see what has been the core Chemical performance as well. Because I think it has been included for two months during the quarter.
We don't share company-specific information on the phone call. What we can only say that if you see the consolidated numbers for the Chemical segment, the increase in the Chemical segment is also due to the inclusion of the MAPRIL company numbers in the Chemical.
Okay. Overall, any sense on how Chemical segment has performed during the quarter and going forward, what do you expect from the segment?
Overall, Akshat, we are still expecting we will manage a growth of around 5%-10% for this segment on a full year basis.
Okay. One last question, sir.
I'm sorry, sir. I'm sorry to interrupt.
I'll join back. I'll join back in queue.
Thank you, sir. Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Pratik Kothari from Unique Portfolio Managers. Please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon. Thank you. Just taking two comments from your presentation. If you can just throw some more color. One on Engineering, we have highlighted we have won a few, or quite a few actually, medium-sized jobs. If you can throw some more color, what kind of projects are these for industry? Also on the Chemical, we are talking about some type in terms of input prices and also on the demand side. If some more color qualitatively would be helpful.
What has been highlighted is there have been quite a few contracts. One, which are medium-sized contracts on the Engineering. These are all from the industrial sector. As far as the concern on input prices is concerned, there it's just a cautionary statement. There certainly is a pressure on input prices for the Chemical segment. We are monitoring it continuously. Whereas we will take whatever steps required to mitigate any possible impacts which may occur in future. As of now, because of the relative stability that we have seen in our input basket, we have been able to deliver good margin numbers.
Okay. Sure. Sir, one on margins in Engineering. You mentioned that maybe after Q2 or something, we will make a comment. Can we go back to the FY 2021, 2022 numbers, 11% EBIT margin that we used to do on an annual basis?
Our expectation is that we would be able to better the numbers which we declared for the last year as a whole. It should be a slight improvement over that. Whether or not we will reach the 2021, 2022 numbers, I think we will still hold back that comment. Hopefully, by the end of the third quarter, depending upon how the prices have moved and what is the contribution of margins that we get from the various sub-segments, we will be able to comment further.
Sir, is this a function of the kind of projects that we are executing, or is it something else on the margin?
It comes as a mix of a number of things. I think because we have mentioned earlier that it is a function of the scale at which the Engineering segment is operating. That has a significant impact. It is also because of the input prices that we managed to get during the period under execution. Third, it certainly has an impact of the kind of projects that we are executing during that period. All of these have a part to play.
If last week, perhaps just update on our Maharashtra Roha and Odisha plant. How are we progressing on that?
The Roha plant is under construction. As we had declared previously, we expect that it will become operational in 2024, 2025. We will announce further developments on that during the course of the next two quarters.
Great. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants, anyone who wishes to ask questions may please press star and one now. The next question is from the line of Satadru Chakraborty from Chakraborty Family Office. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hello, good afternoon. My question is really around the MAPRIL acquisition. I know that we have now consolidated two months' worth of results on the consolidated piece. I was just curious, in your long-term planning and projection, what kind of EBITDA margins on a consolidated basis would you be comfortable with this? Is this a margin dilutive acquisition? Is this really customers that we are going after? Is it the market? Any color and any insight that you have on the acquisition will be very helpful.
We have consolidated about a quarter's operations from the MAPRIL acquisition. We are seeing that it is progressing well. We will get more benefits out of these operations in the coming quarters. The acquisition was mainly to access the European market. The trends till now indicate that we would be doing reasonably well on that front. We will declare additional information in the coming quarters. As of now, the broad color that I can give to you is at a PBT level, we are positive there. Things are picking up.
Maybe one additional follow-up. Now that we have, let's say, a substantial presence in Europe with this acquisition, I was very curious from a financial planning perspective, are you planning to have some sort of hedging mechanism in place so that whenever you are selling services or selling products to the subsidiary, you are sort of not getting the negative effects of euro appreciation, depreciation. Any outside strategy, because I know there is some sort of hedging in place, I just was curious to understand what is the overall company strategy regarding Forex practices in general.
We do take constant stock of our exposures on the Forex market and go by advice of an external consultant who would guide us on what the right kind of strategy to take. Very broadly, we do not like to keep open positions at all and we try and cover as much as possible unless we have a natural hedge against open exposures.
Very helpful, gentlemen. Thank you. All the very best.
Thank you.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Muthuk umar from Fidelity Ventures. Please go ahead.
Hello. Good afternoon, thanks for the opportunity.
Yes, good afternoon.
Yeah. In the investor presentation, you have mentioned that in the engineering project, it consists of INR 2,186 crore order book and outstanding Sri Lanka order book of INR 240 crore and outstanding UP and Delhi Jal Board project of INR 925 crore. Totally, I just want to know what is the timeline taken to accomplish this order. Resolve this order. I just want to know approximate time stint taken to accomplish this order.
The UP order we expect to complete in the next financial year. That order book will get exhausted. As far as Sri Lanka is concerned, we have been going slow on that order for quite some time now because of the unfortunate economic problems which were being faced by the country. As we come to a resolution to those cash flow issues, we will accelerate our invoicing of that contract. On a very optimistic basis, it can get fully invoiced during the current year.
Okay, sir. Also in the big pipeline, you mentioned INR 8,597 crore. What is the capture ratio or strike ratio you are expecting?
Typically, we expect around a 15%-20% strike rate.
15%, okay, sir. Also if you can give me a glimpse of EBITDA growth for next two to three years.
That's something which we would be more clear on as we proceed into the next year. On a very approximate and a broad level, we should be able to maintain the levels of EBITDA which we have today. More color or accuracy can only come as we proceed into the next year.
Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank you and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Noel Vaz from Union Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thank you for the opportunity. Just wanted to clarify on your outlook for FY 2024 for the Chemicals and Engineering segment. What kind of growth-
You're not very audible.
Yeah.
Can you.
Can I be heard better now?
Yes, yes.
Yes. What is the growth outlook for the Chemicals and Engineering segments for FY 2024?
For the Engineering segment, we are expecting between 30%-35% growth. Chemical segment, we are still hoping we would be able to deliver between 5%-10% growth.
Okay, thank you. Just wanted to just clarify on the Chemicals. Initially, I think in the previous quarter, we had guided for somewhere around 10%-15%, now we have reduced our outlook to 5%-10%. Is there any particular reason for it?
We were hoping for some kind of a resumption of the pace of demand in the international market. That has not yet come through. That is why I am cautiously reducing that guidance. We have been hoping now for the past few quarters that the situation on the geopolitical front becomes better and the economies, European as well as the North American economy, would start to fire better. Since that has not yet happened, we are looking at a slightly lower growth forecast. Middle East also is under a little bit of a threat, as you would know, because of the current geopolitical scenario there. It is as a cautious measure, we feel that the growth forecast for the current year needs to be moderated.
Thank you for that. Just lastly, regarding Consumer products, what we'd initially guided for is, it's a fairly strong growth that's been delivered in 2Q. You've guided, I think in the previous call that you had mentioned that you're planning to aim for a break-even by the end of this financial year, and you see very strong growth.
I just wanted to get an idea about what kind of growth trajectory we can expect for this outlook and possibly margin outlook also, if possible. Thanks.
We are seeing a continued growth momentum as far as the Consumer segment is concerned. Even in the current quarter, the growth momentum has been good. This should continue over the next few quarters. As far as the margin is concerned, we were looking for updates even by the end of the year. We still remain hopeful that will be achieved, or we'll be very close to that.
Okay. Thank you very much. That is all from my side.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Jainam Doshi from Kriis Portfolio. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Recently we have altered our object clause of MOA, mentioning our intention to carry out business in the areas of FRP sheets, piping, industrial and municipal solid waste management. Just wanted to have a color on what is our outlook as to strategy pertaining to the same.
That's consequent to the impending merger which we have with companies. Milind can throw a little bit more light on that.
Okay. Understood. Thank you.
Basically
Yeah.
We have a few mergers of subsidiary companies in the offing. To facilitate the objects of the transferor company into our object, we have amended the object beforehand so that at the latter level, at the entity level, we don't have any problem.
Okay. Fair. Yeah. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Harsh Saraswat from Elegant Family Office. Please go ahead.
Hello. Hi. I want to ask on the margin profile in the Engineering business, it has dropped year-on-year, so any guidance on that?
For Engineering segment as a whole, compared to the last financial year corresponding period, I think there has been an improvement in the overall margin level. Vasant, you can add more color on that please.
Yeah. The Engineering margins in the first half are at 6.7% as against 5.2% which was there in the corresponding period of last year.
Okay, got it. My second question is on the thing that in next two, three quarters the whole country would be going on for lot of elections. Does that affect our bid pipelines also in the states where elections are happening and all? If you could throw some light how it has been in the past.
Since our bid pipeline has a relatively limited exposure to direct government or municipal contract, therefore the impact would not be significant from that perspective. As far as the industry or the PSU related inquiries or proposals are concerned, typically one would expect a slight slowdown once the model code of conduct comes into being. Industry in general tends to become a little cautious but as it stands today, the overall outlook being presented by various segments of the industry are not being dictated by the impending elections as such. I guess because of the geopolitical situation and the overall global scenario which we are seeing as well as some of the price movements on the input side, there some industries may prefer to defer their CapEx, but besides that, we are not really seeing any other indications.
Got it. My last question is on the Chemical business. How are you seeing the domestic business of this? Is there growth in the domestic business or not?
Domestic business has done reasonably well over the last few quarters. It's the international business where, as I had mentioned to responded to an earlier question, that's an area where it has performed much lesser than what one would have wanted it to. On the domestic front, again, for the future, we do expect that the situation would improve over the coming two quarters because that's the typical trend that we have been seeing over the last few years.
Got it. Thanks. All the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ayush Aggarwal, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
My first question is regarding your Engineering and Chemicals business. Are you seeing any opportunities arising from emerging industries? Like for example, in India and even worldwide, there is a push for electric vehicle manufacturing and the Indian government is pushing for semiconductor manufacturing domestically. Do you see any opportunities arising because of that?
Yes, Ayush, there are quite a few of these new Sunrise Industries which are proposing to have significant capital expenditures in the country, and each such capital expenditure would have a consequent opportunity for both the water treatment and the wastewater treatment side of the business.
All right. My second question is regarding your Consumer segment. I understand that the segment is not profitable just yet, and I'm sure it will become profitable in the coming quarters going forward. I wanted to know how much you are spending on advertising as a percentage of your revenue.
As such, we've not been giving out specific numbers on that front, Ayush, I can tell you that it's not a very significant number. It would certainly not be in double digits. We don't give out very specific numbers on that.
It's safe to say it's in the single digits, just to broadly speak about it.
Yeah, it would be low. It would not be very high.
All right. Thank you.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Akshat Mehta from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead. Mr. Mehta, please proceed with your question.
My question was if you'd share the number for the customer advances for the quarter, and if you could also share the unearned revenue as well as a whole, advances plus the unearned revenue.
The customer advance was around INR 215 crores as of September end.
The unearned revenue was around INR 208 crores.
Around INR 420 odd crores total.
I guess.
Okay. This is for the first half, right? This is not just for quarter two.
This is the position as of September end, the closing balance.
Okay. Another question which I had was that the guidance that you're giving on the Chemical segment for 5%-10%, does that include the MAPRIL acquisition as well within the guidance or that is separate from this?
Yeah, that goes with the current trends of the consolidated number. As I had mentioned to an earlier question, the incremental benefits from this acquisition, we will hope to see in the coming two quarters, I'm not trying to jump the gun as far as those projections are concerned.
Okay. No issues, sir. I think overall, those are my questions. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pratik Kothari from Unique Portfolio Managers. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you again. Sir, one question on membranes. We had started a new facility, I think two, three quarters back. One update on that, and also, we are planning to add another phase to that membrane capacity. An update on that, please.
We have commenced production on the expanded capacity very recently. As we had mentioned in an earlier call, we expect that we would be able to substantially consume that capacity over the next two years. There is a further capacity expansion plan that's in a very early initial phase.
Okay. Sure. Sir, sorry, but coming back to Chemicals again. I mean, we have substantially changed our guidance from, say, last quarter. How bad has the situation got? I understand that we don't break down numbers further, but if you have to talk about exports, how bad has it gotten?
Exports, there has been a slight drop. It is not a very significant drop, but there is a slight drop in exports.
The reason I ask this is because last quarter we had said 10-15% growth excluding of MAPRIL, and now I think you mentioned that 5%-10% includes MAPRIL too.
As I said, it is a consolidated number. MAPRIL, the incremental benefits from it, which will happen as a consequence of our entering that business, that I am not projecting too far forward. We will be able to give you more accurate guidance on that during the next quarter. In terms of how we are expecting the international business to behave, we have not got improvement which we were hoping for from the international market. As I just mentioned, there has been a slight degrowth on that front. Therefore, it is only prudent that we reduce our guidance a little bit.
Correct. Fair enough. Sir, last one, UP, if you can share how much did we bill it this quarter? Has the scope of work changed because the pending order book seems to have increased quarter-on-quarter.
The scope of work has not changed. There is an incremental increase in the number of villages that have been now approved by the government, and that has led to an increase in the overall size of the order. That's the reason why there is an increase.
Correct. How much did we bill it this quarter?
Vasant, do we give out that breakup?
Specific data we don't give for this, sir.
No, for the last
We have been giving. Last quarter we did INR 40 crore, the quarter before that we did INR 17 crore. We have been mentioning that.
We did around INR 42 crore for this quarter.
Okay, great. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor Company. Please go ahead.
Yes, Namaste sir . I just missed your point about you saying about lowering of guidance and what parameters. If you could just repeat.
Mr. Kapoor, I'm sorry to interrupt you. Your voice was not clear, sir. May we request you to repeat?
One second. You can hear me, sir?
Yes.
Yeah. Namaste, sir. Sir, for the sake of repetition, you mentioned about lowering of some guidance part. I missed that statement. Could you repeat the same?
No, it is for the Chemical segment, where we have said that we are still hoping to deliver a growth of around 5%-10% for the year as a whole.
Okay. We are lowering it to 5% now.
The earlier quarter, we had mentioned 10%-15%, now what we are stating is 5%-10%.
Okay. Sir for the pace in the UP Jal Nigam project, if you could quantify. Has the pace remained the same over the last two preceding quarters, quarter one and quarter two? I think the revenue numbers have remained the same. Was the color on the same, sir? How is that going to gain attraction going ahead? I think the size is, including both UP and Delhi, INR 950 crore. By what time are we going to execute the project for the UP Jal Nigam?
UP Jal Nigam contract will get executed by the next year fully. In the current year, we will see increased invoicing in the second half. We are seeing more movement on the ground and therefore, the projection for an improvement in the second half.
Okay. When we look at your Engineering segment, although you have guided that there will be pick up, quarter two have also remained muted to a greater extent. In order to meet our revenue growth guidance for Engineering segment, H2 will look significantly heavier as has been historic. There is no reason to believe that it will not happen this time. H2 will be significantly heavier in terms of the execution pace for H2. For the month of October, I think we must have seen action on ground.
H2 will be heavier, that is traditionally the case for a long number of years now.
If we compare the revenues for the Engineering segment during the first half as compared to the last year's first half, we should have seen a significant improvement. I believe that the growth would be somewhere in the region of 30%-odd. Sir, if you can share the exact numbers.
Aankur, you want me to share what was done in the second half of last year?
No. First half of the current year as compared to the first half of the previous financial year.
We have grown by 33%.
Okay. That should be the case for H2 also, compared into last H2.
Sorry, I couldn't hear your.
We go for comparative number for previous year second half with current year second half, what should be the growth number we should be sensing in?
As I mentioned earlier, we are hoping to deliver around 30%-35% growth for the Engineering segment as a whole for the full year.
Okay, sir. Sir, last point was, you mentioned about there was some addition in villages in the UP Jal Nigam project. If you could dwell more on the same, so the size of the contract goes up-
Mr. Kapoor, your voice is breaking. We are not able to hear you.
Now you cannot hear me well?
Sir, your voice is breaking.
I'll come with another line. Just disconnect and join, sir.
Okay.
Just give me a minute. Yeah.
Thank you, sir. Yeah. Participants who wishes to ask questions may please press star and one now. We'll take the next question from the line of Manish from Equity at Work. Please go ahead.
Hello
Yes, sir. Please proceed.
Sir, what is your revenue guidance for FY 2024? Full-year revenue guidance.
We have given you a segmental breakup for as far as the guidance is concerned. On Engineering segment, we have said 30%-35% growth. For Chemical segment, between 5%-10% growth. For Consumer segment, we are stating that it will continue its growth momentum as we have been seeing in the first half. That's the overall guidance.
You have guided for 30%-35% for Engineering business, right? Engineering, hitherto we have done above INR 600 crores, and you have guided for 35% growth, which actually sort of extrapolated to somewhere in the vicinity of up INR 1,700 crores. You are essentially trying to suggest that you are going to do a revenue of at least INR 1,000 crores for the next two quarters put together. Is my understanding correct?
I think that's how the numbers would add up.
Hello?
That's how the numbers would add up. You just did the math.
I'm sorry, sir. I couldn't follow. Come again.
I'm saying that's how the numbers would add up. You just did the math.
Okay. Hello, voice is not clear. Sorry. Hello.
Sir, could you repeat it once more?
I said that's how the numbers would add up. You got the math correct.
Okay. Sir, what would that populate down to in terms of absolute EBIT for FY 2024 for the Engineering segment?
We should have an improvement over the last full year's EBIT in terms of percentage.
Okay. Margins would increase from here, right?
Yes.
Any specific guidance for margins that you have for FY 2024, in particular for the Engineering business?
As I just mentioned, we will see an improvement over the last full year's number. Last full year's number was, if I'm not wrong, around 8.9% or 9%. We should see an improvement over that.
Okay. All right, sir. Thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Akshat Mehta from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Sorry. One last question that I had is, that we've seen an increase in the debt position, if you look at your quarter two numbers versus end of FY 2023. Why has that increased?
Sorry, what has increased?
The debt position.
Debt.
Borrowings have increased, sir.
Okay. Vasant, can you please comment on that?
Yeah. On the standalone basis, the debt numbers are at the same level as previous year. When you see the consolidated numbers, that is because of the acquisition of MAPRIL. The debt which was standing in MAPRIL books, that has come into.
Okay
consort.
No, because as far as I understood, you're also going to take some debt for the Roha capacity expansion as well.
Yeah. As we move forward with the CapEx, we will be taking the debt in the book.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Richa Chowdhary from Electrum PMS. Please go ahead.
Hello.
Yes, ma'am. Please proceed.
Am I audible?
Yes, ma'am. You're audible.
Yes, sir. Sir, I just had one question on the Roha expansion plant. When are we expecting the plant to be operational? That would be the first question. We had some guidance given before, probably a year back on the backward integration project. What exactly was that, and how are we going ahead with that?
The Roha plant, we are expecting that by the end of the next financial year, we would be able to substantially complete the construction process. As far as becoming operational is concerned, we expect that it could be in FY 2025/2026.
Okay. Sir, what asset turns are we expecting on this INR 400 crore project?
We are expecting somewhere around 1.5x-2x, if you consider total CapEx of roughly INR 375 crore.
All right. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor Company. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Now I'm audible clearly?
Yes, sir.
Yes, thank you . Sir, you were mentioning about addition of more villages in that UP Jal Nigam project. By what percent does it improve the size of the contract and also the scope of work? If you could dwell more on the same.
The nature of the project remains same. It is just that when you add more villages, the overall size of the contract goes up slightly. Vasant, if you can mention the numbers.
It is around INR 60 crore roughly, which has been added during the quarter.
It also has an O&M component, sir, the total project operation and maintenance part?
Sir, this value does not include the O&M part. It is only the EPC part.
Okay. What is the size of the O&M part, sir, and when will it kick in, suppose, expiry of what term?
It is a 10 years O&M, which will kick in after once the individual projects are handed over to the respective departments.
Size, sir, what is the size of value of the O&M part?
It really cannot be, because as was mentioned earlier, this contract is a conglomeration of all individual contracts. At this stage, it's not possible to give a definitive number what will be the O&M. It will vary.
Sir, as you were mentioning about the scope of work and also the increasing, are there many players who are involved in this project, the scope of work improves for everybody? Is it a particular packet of work that we have got because of the reasons of whatsoever, that more villages been added to us? What led to it, are there many EPC players involved in this entire project?
Yeah, the UP government or the UP part of the Nal Se Jal team has many EPC contractors. We are one of them. The increase in the number of villages is consequent upon the detailed project reports getting approved by the department, that's something which happens progressively as there are a few more which are under evaluation.
Thank you. Sir, the participant has left the queue. We'll move on to the next question, which is from the line of Ayush Aggarwal, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Sir, I wanted to follow up on one of my previous questions regarding opportunities in Sunrise Industries. Looking at your current bid pipeline of INR 8,745 crores, how much of that would be coming from the Sunrise Industries?
Very difficult to give you an exact number because how we look at Sunrise Industries and which one would get qualified within that bracket. Probably a very broad brush which I can try to give you is it would not be obviously a majority of the number. It would definitely be below 25%, but I would not be able to give you a further breakdown.
Understood. My second question is regarding the debt that you have taken for the greenfield expansion. In the last quarter earnings call, you had mentioned that you are taking around INR 300 crore-INR 320 crore of debt for this project. I wanted to know what is the repayment period for this, and is the earnings from this project expected to be able to repay that debt on its own, or will other income streams be contributing towards that?
We have not yet taken the debt on our book, Ayush. We will take it up as the construction of the project progresses further, we would be able to service the debt to our internal generations. Vasant, you can shed more light on the terms, the period of the debt.
All right.
It is five years post planned commercial production.
Okay.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Romil Jain from Electrum PMS. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, the first question is on the Consumer business. I just want to understand when do we kind of break even at the EBITDA level and subsequently at the PAT level, maybe next year or FY 2026? Any sense on that? What are the kind of touch points that, in terms of distribution network we are at in this business?
We are certainly hoping that we would be able to still meet the target of breaking even or being very close to that by the end of the current year. As far as the distribution network is concerned, it's an all-India network, and it's an ever-expanding one. We are reaching out to Tier 2 and in some cases Tier 3 cities also. It's an extensive all-India network.
Okay. On Chemical side, just want to understand, I think firstly you're doubling the capacity and then it will triple, right? Overall that is the plan, right, to triple the capacity?
Yes, over a period of time.
Correct. The INR 400 crores CapEx, which is there, is for doubling the capacity as well as the backward integration, correct?
That's right.
Okay.
Some part of this CapEx would also help in the further expansion at a later date. The later expansion would not need to incur some of the.
Lot of CapEx, yeah.
Probably.
Okay. Just, can you give little bit of more understanding on the backward integration? How much of that would be backward integration in terms of the overall CapEx, and whether that would structurally improve margins of the Chemical segment going ahead?
Roughly around INR 125 crores is what has been allocated to that project. Yes, we are expecting an improvement in the margin profile because of that.
Lastly, on this CapEx of INR 400 crore, you mentioned 1.5x- 2x asset turn. By when do we expect to reach the optimal utilization or whatever maximum we can do before the next line kicks in? Does the next line kick in immediately after we commission this CapEx by FY 2025 end? What are the timelines on that third phase, the next phase?
We expect roughly around a three to four-year period for the capacity to get utilized fully.
Okay.
We will take a decision on initiating the next phase of expansion somewhere down the line. It will not happen immediately, because we need to see the pickup of the capacity utilization for this current expansion.
Okay. Sir, can I just ask a last question, if that is okay?
Yes.
Yeah. Sir, on the Engineering side of the business, just want to understand a little bit more macro, how are we looking at the entire industry panning out? How does the industrial book look like for us? Where do we see the drivers? I think earlier we met you and you said we've just scratched the surface in terms of the entire water treatment and effluent treatment in India, so there's a long way to go. If you can just help us understand in terms of a little bit on driver's side of that.
I will be very brief with that answer, Ayush. We have come to the end of the session per se.
Sure.
That answer as a whole would require a long-winded answer.
Correct.
Just to touch on the main points, the overall demand scenario projected over the medium term is very good. There's a huge gap between what we aspire to have as a country, as a part of the industrial infrastructure that we have, given our commitments to environment, ESG, et cetera. This scenario also holds true for the global community because there is a lot of gap in infrastructure in several parts of the globe, specifically Africa, the Middle East and the Southeast. The forecast for a medium to long term is pretty good for the industry. We should see continuous improvement in the kind of inquiry and order book, as well as the way the technology is shaping up. There should be scope for brown field improvements also, not just the green field ones.
Okay. Thanks a lot, sir. Thanks.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question. I now hand the conference over to Mr. N. M. Ranadive from Ion Exchange India Limited, for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Good afternoon. Thank you all for participating in this earnings con call. I hope we have been able to answer your questions satisfactorily. If you have any further questions or would like to know more about the company, we would be happy to talk to you. We are very thankful to all our investors who stood by us and also have confidence in the company's growth plan and purpose. With this, I wish everyone a great evening. Thank you.
Thank you very much, sir. Thank you, members of the management. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Ion Exchange India Limited, that concludes this conference. We thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.