Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Tata Power Q2 FY24 earnings conference call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Dr. Praveer Sinha, MD and CEO of Tata Power. Thank you, and over to you.
Thank you. Good evening to all of you, and thanks for joining the call. On behalf of Tata Power, I would like to extend my best wishes to you and your family for a very happy and safe Diwali in advance. I'm joined today with my colleague Sanjeev Churiwala, CFO; Mr. J.V. Patil, Financial Controller; Mr. Kasturi and Mr. Rajesh Lachhani from Investor Relations, and other members from my corporate finance and corporate communication team. At the outset, let me talk a little bit about the power sector. We have seen that the power demand in the last quarter has gone up by nearly 13% compared to the previous year. This increase in demand has been seen right through in this financial year.
We have seen, on a cumulative basis, there has been a growth of more than 10% this year, as we have seen last year, where the growth had been 10 years, 10% compared to the previous year. And, I think, the cumulative growth in last two years is nearly 22%, which is a record. The peak demand of power was 241 GW, which was nearly more than 10% of the previous year. And, we see that this demand continues to, be very high even in the month of October.
We expect that this will continue for at least another two years, considering that the demand has gone up not only for the industry, but also for our commercial and industrial consumers, and including residential consumers, where a huge demand of air conditioning load has also led to this surge in demand. Because of these reasons, the Ministry of Power has been trying to ensure that there is adequate supply of power in the country and has extended the Section 11, so that all the imported coal-based plants continue to operate and supply power. As also, they have mandated that the domestic coal plants also use up to 60% of the imported coal for purpose of blending, so that there is no shortage of power in the country.
I think that this has given good results in the sense that the country has been able to meet the enhanced power requirement, whereas many of the other countries have struggled to do that. Moving to our financial performance, I am extremely pleased to share that this is the sixteenth successive quarter in which we have shown the PAT, and that this has been based on very strong fundamentals of all our existing businesses, including new businesses in renewable and distribution companies. This year, in this quarter, the consolidated PAT is INR 1,017 crore, which is a 9% increase compared to last year. Similarly, the revenue growth has been 9%, and the EBITDA growth has been 51%, just because of much better performance of all the plants, including the Mundra plant.
What we have seen is that in the half year, our PAT has gone up over INR 30,000 crore, which, if you remember, three years back, used to be our annual revenue. Our EBITDA has also grown to more than INR 6,000 crore, INR 6,092 crore in the first half of the year. Our PAT has grown by 6% on a half-yearly basis, INR 1,934 crore. This has been possible because of a large number of initiatives taken by Tata Power. We have been steadily working on our renewable capacity, where capacity additions have taken place during this quarter. Today, our clean energy portfolio stands at 5,500 MW, which is nearly 38% of our installed capacity.
This is on back of nearly 3,200 MW of solar, 1,000 MW of wind, and the balance being hydro and off-gas plants. And with another 3,760 MW under implementation, which will get completed in next two years, we will achieve a installed capacity of 9,300 MW of clean energy, which will be nearly 50% of our total capacity. So, we have actually set up a very ambitious target that by 2030, we'll have 70% of our capacity of our installed capacity will be clean energy. I think we'll be able to achieve, because this does not include the 2,800 MW of pumped hydro, which we will be setting up.
In our hydro plant, starting next year, middle of next year, when the work will start and it will get executed in up to six months thereafter. In all our renewable business, including large EPC, large scale EPC business, our own utility, as well as rooftop and group captive, we have seen huge growth, and there is a huge pipeline of projects which are under implementation. We have also been able to start the trial production from our 4.3 GW cell and module plant. The first of the module units have started the trial production, and we expect in next two to three months they will stabilize the module production, and the cell production will start in the month of January and will stabilize by March, April.
So, one of the big challenges of, the supply chain management and having a much better control on the input costs, for solar plants will be taken care once this 4.3 GW plant gets fully operational. In fact, we are the first one in the PLI scheme who have been able to start production. And we do hope, that the 4.3 GW, which will become the single largest, manufacturing of solar cell and module plant, will get, not only operational, but will operate at a very high yield and throughput. Our other business, especially in our EV charging, has also been doing very good. We have nearly 62,000 home chargers, and we have nearly 4,900 of public chargers.
We've also been able to implement lot of bus charging facilities, starting from Kashmir up to various cities such as Jammu, Srinagar, and we have in Delhi, Jaipur, Ahmedabad, Bangalore and Mumbai. So I think with widespread projects of bus charging, we'll see more and more public transportation also going to EV vehicles. Our Odisha DISCOMs have been doing very good, and we have a PAT of nearly INR 90 crores in Q2 and INR 154 crores in H1.
We have been taking huge number of initiatives to clean up the data after this implementation of ERP, and also, moving away from provisional billing, which is, in few cases, less than 5%, which will help us to bring but better control and visibility in the billing and collection efficiency. We have till now replaced nearly 25 lakh meters in the three years, and it really shows that, how, a discipline is being brought in, in the, in doing the right billing and collecting from the consumers. Balance sheet continues to be very sturdy, with the net debt declining by nearly INR 1,140 crore in Q2.
Our net debt stands at a very healthy INR 36,609, which means that our net debt to underlying EBITDA is 2.65. And our net debt to equity is 1.02, which is, I think, a benchmark for infrastructure industry. We expect the CapEx to pick up significantly in the second half, with large number of projects planned in 2023 and 2024, and we will be able to see many of them getting implemented, and the benefits of that will start accruing to us, especially in the utility scale and group captive projects in the subsequent year.
We have been able to tie up the arrangement with the Zambia unit, where we have a 120 MW hydropower plant, which was not able to conclude the power purchase arrangement and receipt of payment. That has been resolved, and the company has received the payment of $102 million, out of which our share is 50%, so we've received the payment of $51 million. All this has led to a very solid balance sheet, and this has also led to the upgradation of Tata Power's credit rating from BA2 stable to BA1 stable. As you would have noticed, Tata Power is continuously working to stabilize its operations and bring consistency in the performance.
And every quarter we have shown improvement in our performance because of the stable operations of all our existing and new ventures. And this will go a long way in making the company much more stable and with a very healthy balance sheet. We would also be closely monitoring all our financial and operational metrics to ensure that there is consistency in the performance in the future quarters... With this, I would request Yashaswi to open the floor for questions.
Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. We have a first question from the line of Puneet Gulati from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity, and congrats on the good numbers. Can you elaborate a bit more on what you're seeing in terms of profitability for Mundra and the coal mine separately as well?
Yeah. Hi, Puneet, and hi, everyone. This is, Sanjeev Churiwala, CFO for Tata Power. First of all, let me wish all of you a very happy, Diwali in advance. I think in our previous calls, a lot of questions have been asked on, on the Mundra and the coal mines. So what we have done this time, for the benefit of all of you, we have included a separate slide which gives you the cluster-wide performance. If you have access to that deck, you go to slide number 36 and 37, all the details are available for you.
But just for the sake of your understanding, this year, when we see our EBITDA going up by 51%, our PAT going up by 9%, that is in spite of our coal mining profits significantly going down. Last year, for the same period, the coal pricing was close to about $135-$140, and then we are now witnessing coal prices of about, close to about $80. So our coal profits have significantly come down, but that has been more compensated by profits coming from all our core business, including overall generation business, our existing thermal business, including transmission, distribution, renewable, new businesses like in Odisha and renewable.
So I think, this is the big shift, that we're kind of delivering, you know, our PAT, almost 80% of that plus is coming from the core profit, and we want to continue, delivering that. When it comes to Mundra, Mundra is just a cost plus, model under Section 11, so we're recovering all the costs. So it's just a little, you know, you know, under a normal PPA would have had a loss, and under Section 11, it's just a cost recovery. So of course there's no loss, but it's almost a breakeven on the PAT as well.
Oh, you in a PAT as well? Okay.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay. That's interesting. That's very useful. Secondly, on the renewable side, you know, there have been a lot of bids which happened during the first half of this year. How are you positioning yourself for that opportunity? Or you think the pricing is still quite tough and competitive intensity too high? If you can elaborate a bit there.
Our strategy is very clear. We're kind of still looking at delivering 1.5-2 GW of renewable on an average. Even this year, we will be commissioning close to about 1 GW of renewable. We already have a very healthy pipeline in terms of, you know, in terms of the bids that we had, including our group captive. So our focus, when we look at overall solar, it's a combination of group captive, rooftop and large-scale projects put together. In both of them, we have a healthy pipeline.
Hybrid projects.
And that, of course, includes hybrids and as well as RTCs. There's a combination of all of that.
Okay, so you don't want to build further pipeline right now, the way some of the other peers have been talking about building 10, 20 GW of potential pipeline?
I think, when it comes to the long-term pipeline, in any case, we have set our aspiration that we will be delivering 15 GW+ , right, in the next couple of years. As we speak, we already have a commission capacity of 4.23, and about 3.6 is in the pipeline. So overall, you know, we're talking about an 8 GW, you know, space commission and at the, in the pipeline. Plus, of course, you know, we, we have almost, 3.6 GW of overall pipeline capacity that is coming up. So I, I don't think that, we are not building enough.
We are kind of sticking to aspirations, and most likely, with our aspirations for the pumped storages coming through in the next few years' time, we're likely to want to exceed our target that we have set for ourselves.
Right. That's very helpful. And lastly, what stage are you on your pumped storage business? Do you have all approvals, environmental clearance in place, or still applying for the same?
See, all the approvals have been applied for. Some have been received.
Okay.
We expect all our approvals to be in place by March 5th, and that's why we are saying that we will start the work by mid of next year. Since this is on our existing reservoir and existing location where we have the hydropower plants, there's no fresh land acquisition or anything that is required, and we will be able to complete it in 36 months. So that's our timeline that we are looking. So mid-2027, we will have the pumped hydro plant operating.
Okay, excellent. That's great. Thank you so much, and wish you all the best.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Apoorva Bahadur from Goldman Sachs. Please go ahead.
... Hey, thank you for the opportunity. So if I see the financials, the Trust Energy has reported meaningful swing in profits. So just wanted to understand what's driving this, and how should we view this business in future?
Yeah. So I think, when you look at the Trust Energy, the way we are reporting here is basically entity-wise. Best is to look at the cluster-wise performance. But what is Trust Energy? Trust Energy is simply nothing else but the shipping company. So more coal we bring in, which is part of indicate our coal cost, it is the profit attributed to the Trust Company. But best is to look at Mundra, and the coal companies together. If you go to slide number 36 and 37, you know, you can look at here. Go to 37, which is H one. Yeah.
If you look at the line which says Mundra, coal and shipping, this gives you the combination of all the things, which includes the Mundra, which includes the shipping, and which includes the coal mines profit.
It is completely linked to the volume of freight which we are moving, and not to the shipping rates at all?
Yeah, correct. It's largely related to the volumes.
Okay. So in every quarter, whenever we, when Mundra operates more, so sort of Trust will make a higher profit. Understood.
Yes. So actually, you know, that is kind of a cost plus model. So you will not look at kind of that, very small amount sitting over there. It's best to look at the Mundra current shipping, which if you look at slide 37, I'm sure you have access to that, you will find all the combined numbers here.
Sure, sir. So secondly, also, if I see this same slide, I think eliminations used to be quite significant historically. I think that number is down meaningfully. I believe some part of it could be attributed to probably not utilizing own coal at Mundra, but I mean, if you can throw some light for-
So elimination is basically all the intercompany things, right? We are an integrated company. So, you know, while overall numbers are only coming down, not going up in terms, in terms of elimination, but the fact is, this all depends. Higher the intercompany transactions, there will be higher eliminations. So I think the best way to look at it, post elimination, because otherwise the numbers are sitting in the drawer, so thereafter there's an elimination. This is more of an accounting entry.
Understood. I think, sir, so lastly on the realization of dues from KPC sale and also from Itezhi. So I believe that sits in reduction in the unbilled revenue in your cash flow.
You're looking at a particular slide?
The Itezhi tariff order, right? Maybe a resolution which happened, I think, INR 150 million, INR 61 for us, and also the receipt of-
That is not in the previous quarter. So the Itezhi will come in the subsequent quarter. So the-
Okay.
It is not in the previous quarter.
Okay, sir. And for Arutmin, we have received already during this quarter?
Yeah, Arutmin money has received. The question was ITPC. ITPC has received the money from its procurer, that is ZESCO, right? We have received our dividend this month. Nothing is reflected in September, but the profit will be reflected in quarter three, and will not be shown as receivable because we already received the money.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much. I'll get back in the queue.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Subhadip Mitra Mitra from Nomura. Please go ahead.
Good evening, everyone, and thank you for the opportunity. My first question is that in a scenario where we are looking at Section 11 benefits continuing for an entire fiscal year, would the UMPP still be at net breakeven, or would it be profits?
No, I think as of now, under Section Eleven, the whole idea of Section Eleven is cost pass-through, right? So eventually, the purpose is that whatever is the cost and the overheads are able to recover fully in the tariff, and hence, you will likely see a breakeven scenario.
This is at the net level. Maybe at the cash level, there might still be some cash profit. Is that the right understanding?
When we're looking at overheads and all, you kind of include all the index adjustments you look at, the depreciation. So yes, on a, on a PAT level, it will be neutral. On a cash level, it will be slightly positive.
Okay, understood. And with regards to the long-term resolution on Mundra, are we looking at it following the lines of the Section Eleven tariffs or thereabouts?
Yeah, something very close to that, so that the tariffs become more cost reflective. And still under discussion, but I think something close to that.
Understood. Secondly, with regard to the renewable business profit, which has certainly offset the loss of profits from coal and UMPP in this quarter. So on the renewable piece, clearly it's visible that I think the EPC side of the business is growing at a good amount of profitability. I actually just wanted to understand that, for this business, are we still looking at doing more third-party sales, and hence this can continue to become the growth center?
So, for renewable, typically, you would see that, we have a huge pipeline, 3,800 MW, of projects which we need to commission apart from the rooftop that we need to sell. So, and many of the projects will get completed in the next two quarters. So I think you can expect a very good performance by the revenue, by the renewable business next two quarters, and also in the next 12 - eight months when many of these projects will get commissioned. But I think our renewable business, you will see a huge improvement over a period of time.
Understood, sir. But, my question was that, if we are continuing to do more of sales EPC, then in the consolidation, it will get knocked off. So only the third party related EPC would actually start showing up as your profits in the consolidated numbers. Just wanted some clarity on that.
No, but even when we do our own projects, there is a profit in that. So they work as separate entities, so the EPC business will have a profit on execution of this. Yeah.
In fact, even in the current quarter, more than 50% of the business and the profit that you see, it's basically coming from third party. So I think it's a combination of third party as well as in-house.
Understood. Understood. And on the coal front, with I think recent uptick in coal in the international coal indices, would you again see a jump back to let's say coal profitability over the next couple of quarters?
I think all indicators are showing that the coal prices possibly, globally, are stabilizing now. We have seen a sharp drop every month over the last six to nine months. In fact, when we compare over 12 months, from about $125-$130, it's come down to $80. And over the last few weeks, we are seeing the price stable in that quarter. It's unlikely that we will see a, you know, big swing going forward, but you never know what happens. We never predicted this kind of high prices earlier and then such a sharp fall drop again. So it's very difficult to predict, but as of now, we're kind of thinking that it should remain range bound.
Understood. Last question from my side. This would be with regard to the large tendering activities that you're seeing on renewables, whether it's solar or hybrid, et cetera. Is there any, you know, ballpark target number that you have, or market share number that you have in terms of, you know, winning across this market size of maybe 30-35 GW, which is understanding?
See, the only ballpark is that there should be good return from them. So that is what it is. If it is not a good return, then there is no point in taking orders. And you have seen that many of the developers took orders at INR 2 and INR 1.99 and all that, and have lost money. So the only ballpark is that we should get good return. Also, we are now leveraging more towards hybrid projects. So it's not just pure solar or pure wind, but you see a solar and wind combination. There are solar, wind and storage combination, which we won yesterday. So we will be moving more towards complex projects which require a combination of solar, wind, and once we have our pumped hydro, then we will be giving 24/7 renewable power.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much for answering my questions.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Sumit Kishore from Axis Capital. Please go ahead.
Good evening. My first question is regarding the trajectory of margin expected for TPSSL. Once the 4.3 GW modules and manufacturing capacity will be commissioned by the end of the year, so the next, what will be the bump up that you expect in margin here?
Mr. Kishore, may I request you to mute when you're not speaking? There's some background disturbance. Thank you.
I think, when we look at EPC business per se, while in quarter two, we are about 4%, that too, in a very, very difficult environment situation where the sales and module prices have moved significantly. Our desire is to kind of deliver an EPC margin on 4%, of, about 5% of the EPC business. When it comes to sales and modules, of course, it's a combination of, largely using in-house, where we ensure that whatever costs we have incurred, which is roughly about INR 4,004+, we get a different return on that, right? So, so we'll, we will ensure that the cost plus markup happens to get back our, our return. We'll not link it directly to the EPC business per se, but we will be setting it up as a, as a separate, profit center.
Yeah, but ultimately it will get used up in your third-party EPC projects as well as your in-house projects, and it would be reported under TPSSL. Is that right?
No. So when the manufacturing business starts, you know, so the rate is for almost two-thirds of the production, which is 3 GW, that will be used, of course, in-house. So TPSSL will buy that material from our new manufacturing plant, and then it will be basically the billing to our large-scale utility projects. And that's the way we want to do. So we already have a new company called TP Solar, which is in Tamil Nadu, where this 4.3 GW setup is coming through. And of course, that company might also sell 1-2 GW, depending upon the need in international market and domestic market, and whatever profit it comes over there will be sitting over there.
So could you give us a sense of the capital cost for the project, as well as number of hours of storage, you know, that you would have the, you know, whether it's in Maharashtra, and the associated RE that you would have to set up?
Pumped storage. Are you asking about pumped storage, Sumit?
Yes. Yes, yes.
Yeah, I think we have already tied up with the government of Maharashtra for 2.8 GW, which we'll be setting up in the next three years. And of course, it is basically to cater to round-the-clock delivery of renewable energy. And, of course, depending upon the model, either we can sell the storage capacities or tie-up separately, but that will depend once we commission the plant as to what is the need of the hour. But yeah, again, that will be a separate profit center, and will be delivering its own profit.
So sort of project, you know, maybe you know, the project mechanics work?
As of now, for the capacity that we are planning is roughly about INR 13,000 crore, in terms of the capital outlay.
Okay. Okay. And, are there any non-recurring items in Q3, you know, received some other income from partial sale of unit six equipment, of Bombay, of INR 52 crore? And what is the treatment of this INR 2.3 billion rupee of Arutmin sales proceeds?
So the Arutmin sales is part of the consideration, right? It's nothing to do with the P&L. That's purely the cash flow that has come, because Arutmin was sold many years back. This was the final last leg of the consideration, which is now coming. So there's no impact of that on the P&L.
Correct.
We don't have any-
Other income.
Sorry?
The only P&L impact is on the other income for this Bombay unit six.
Yes. Yes, yeah. That's unit six, INR 50 odd crores.
Got it. There's no other non-recurring item in this regard?
No, there is nothing.
Got it. Thank you so much, and wish you all the best.
Thank you, Sumit.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Anuj Upadhyay from Investec. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the opportunity, sir. Sir, question relates to the 1,158 MW of PPC project which we have canceled off. Could you just elaborate further which projects exactly it was, and why the need to cancel it off now, considering the fact that the module prices have almost come down significantly on this?
So these projects were basically where we had to do third-party EPC work. And the client was supposed to provide us the land, and they could not provide us the land and the other clearances which were required to set up these projects. So that's why it was decided that we should terminate after we come out from them. Other than that, all the other projects were of course, going and continuing.
Okay. And considering your earlier remark, the question, of course, asked by few of my colleagues, is it a shift in strategy that our focus would largely be catering to more toward the C&I category of consumers, rather than, which is from the IPP scale? Because, you know, the scale of tendering which has been happening in the first half, and the rate of the project winning, which we are having specifically for the IPP side, doesn't match exactly. On the other hand, we have been getting good orders from the C&I and the rooftop scale. Just to, you know, understand, is there any strategic shift or calculated bidding which we are doing?
So our stand has been consistent. Those places where we will get better margin, we will execute those projects. So we have seen that in group captive, we have been able to get much better margin, and that's why we are doing it. And also, some of the utility scale that we have won, we have won large projects in Delhi and from Delhi Discom, and then from Mumbai Discom, and some of the others. We have been doing those projects. Those are typically hybrid projects. So I think focus is that we need to get better margin, and those are the type of projects.
Fair enough, sir. And on the Odisha side, we have been seeing, you know, Western Odisha again reporting high AT&C losses. So is this something of cyclical or seasonal impact, which actually has led to a drop in the profitability as well over there, or it's-
So Odisha, what is happening is, as I mentioned to you, a lot of cleaning up operations have been going on in terms of, the number of consumers and the type of billing. And, you have seen that in last three years we have replaced 25 lakh meters, and, discontinuing the provisional billing and cleaning up, the books. So that's what we have done, and, hopefully by next two quarters, we will have completed in all the four districts. And many of the consumers who were earlier so-called the ghost customers, they have been billed. So I think, you would see that. So, it brings huge amount of consistency in the these operations, and also, ensure that the proper billing and proper collection takes place.
Okay. Lastly, on the Mundra, sir. So, till when the Section 11 will be enforced as on date and our expectation going ahead, considering the fact that the country is moving into a deficit zone. So I'm pretty sure-
So the Mundra right now is till June 24th. There is, as you rightly mentioned, that there is a huge demand of power, and this is expected to continue next year also. So I think for at least next two years, it looks like there will be a shortage of power and there will be huge demand. And we expect that, if we have to meet 100% requirement, some of the imported coal plants have to operate under Section 11.
Pank, sir, if I just chip in for last question. If you mentioned INR 13,000 crore is the overall CapEx for the PSP project, so it includes the renewable capacities as well, which will be filling the PSP plant, or it's only the PSP equipment or the setup for which you have mentioned INR 13,000 crore?
This is only the PSP. The energy that will be required for 14 hours will be a separate investment, which will come in the renewable space.
Thank you, sir. That's all I have. Wish you good luck, and very happy Diwali.
Thank you, and Happy Diwali to you also.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Rajesh Mazumdar from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good evening, and thanks for the opportunity. I had a few questions. First question is on the regulated equity, which is at about INR 11,850-odd crores as of September 30th. So considering the CapEx you are planning for the next five years, on the existing operations, as well as Odisha DISCOMs and pumped hydro, where should we see the regulated equity say in FY 2027 or FY 2028?
I'm not clear. You want to just-
Yeah. So I think this is if you're looking at the regulated equity, this depends upon the kind of CapEx that is required to be done and the percentage of money that will come through the equity. So there's no direct correlation per se, right? It will all depend upon the opportunities that we'll have in the next three years. So for example, this year, if we're doing a CapEx of, let's say, INR 12,000-odd crore, right, and we look at 25-30% of equity coming in, we'll also have to look at the cash flow. So I think it's a combination of various things. This per se, on the regulated equity, I will not be able to, you know, decode and then give you a perfect answer.
But yes, if you see between quarter two of 2023 and quarter two of 2024, so INR 10,900 crore, it will go one up by, by about, roughly about INR 1,900 crore. So of course, to that extent, we contribute equity, it will keep on going up. And this is mainly all regulated equity, which will be giving us return of 14%+.
Like, so the pumped hydro place will not be a part of this regulated equity-
No.
Or it will be separate?
Pumped hydro storage will not be part of the regulated equity. It will be separate. It is non-regulated.
Right. And how do we look at the economics of this pumped hydro project, if we see it as a separate business?
The approach to non-hy or to hydro visibility is very simple. That will enable us to, to kind of deliver the RTC ambitions that India have, because pure solar or pure wind will have its own limitations on a large scale deployment. Very clearly, given that we are putting up this on our own reservoirs, our CapEx cost and our per unit cost should be very, very competitive.
We will be targeting the 15% ROE here also, or more than that? As per the internal IRR, rate of return, we target in projects.
As Dr. Sinha said, you know, anything that we do has to deliver us the cash, deliver us the return. So if the return that is delivered, we will not touch any project.
Yeah, that is the minimum.
Okay, okay, that, that's helpful, sir. My other question was, sir, on Mundra, you mentioned that we are breaking even now. So are we breaking even at the cash level or at the PAT level? Because there are a lot of non-cash expenses as well, on the interest and depreciation. So where are we breaking even, at the cash or the PAT level?
We are breaking even at the PAT level. You can say there's a slight improvement on the cash side, because we have various adjustments for IVA and the depreciation that you can add back. But, you know, by and large, it's not much of a difference. So I think best to kind of consider the PAT level, you know, if we continue with Section 11, we'd like to ensure that we are breaking even at the PAT level.
Thank you, sir. And sir, my last question is, do we have any merchant power sales from our existing operations? And, because the merchant power rates are very lucrative and a lot of... We see a lot of competition playing in the merchant power market. And, do we have any capacities there, and we do plan to increase the capacities there?
Yeah. So we have merchant power sales from our two locations. One is, Haldia, which the entire capacity is for merchant capacity, another is, at Prayagraj, where there's a small, quantity of merchant sale. All put together, we do not have huge capacities on merchant.
Totally, what, how many megawatts will be there on the merchant right now?
It's about 300. About, yeah, about 300 all put together.
Okay. We don't plan to increase this significantly, or do we plan to?
...No, no problem.
Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Atul Tiwari from Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thanks a lot. So, sir, for this PSP project, has the PPA been signed or, or do you plan to keep it open, like, on merchant?
No, no, the PPA will be signed with the renewable company, and we will package it as a 24/7 renewable power supply.
Okay, so your own, renewable arm will sign the PPA, but then there has to be ultimately an end party, right? Who will be taking this power? So I am asking whether do you have visibility of a guaranteed offtake from this, or how does it work? That is the question.
Right now, we've not signed up, but there are a large number of people who are interested, including Tata Steel, with whom we recently signed a group captive of 900-odd MW. So there are a large number of people who are interested. We need to be 100% sure as to when we will be able to offer this power. At that stage, we will sign it.
Okay, sir. Okay, thank you.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Girish from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks. I had a question to the CFO. So basically, on slide number 34, we have this total B, which is the gross revenue, EBITDA and PAT, and then the elimination. What I observe is at EBITDA line and PAT level, there is a YOY decrease in elimination of INR 1,000 crore. I wanted to understand which entities are attributing to a lower decline, negative number in EBITDA and PAT, please.
Yeah, that is correlated to the dividend. Depending upon the dividend that we have, at a console level, it is eliminated. If you go to slide number 39, you'll find the workings over there.
This is part of the standalone entity only, or-
Yes, that's correct. It's part of the standalone entity.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Puneet Gulati from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for taking the question again. My first suggestion, you talk about the cancellation of order. Is there any penalty associated with it, and, and has that already been accounted for?
No, there's no penalty. These are all third party PC orders, and we canceled it because, as I mentioned to you, they could not apply to their requirement of giving us land and some other benefits.
Okay, so this was canceled-
I'm sorry, you're sounding muffled, Mr. Gulati.
Sorry, can you hear me well?
Yes.
Yeah, so I'm taking through the INR 58 crore number, was canceled by IPP?
No, I, I didn't say IPP. These are people who wanted projects to be implemented, so there can be large number of other people also.
No, I'm just trying to understand. So who initiated the cancellation? Did you have to initiate, or did they have to initiate the off-taker, and if they paid any penalty for that, or if we had to pay any penalty for this?
Oh, no. It's a mutually negotiated event.
Okay. And, and no, it wouldn't have impacted the PNL at all?
No, no.
Okay, understood. Secondly, on the Mundra, when you say breakeven, what is the underlying debt that you assume for calculating interest?
You'll have to look at the Mundra standalone numbers and the debt over there. But the usual debt that is there in the Mundra group, or arrangement, roughly INR 11,000 crore-INR 12,000 crore, which is there to support the business over there.
Which includes both long-term and-
Yeah, which is, which is all long-term, short-term commercial paper, term loans, all put together.
No, no, specifically for the Mundra profitability. When you attribute that breakeven year, there is an interest cost, so that's the number.
About INR 11,000 crore, something.
Okay. So full debt is assumed, not the way it was earlier, positioned separately under the SPV?
No, Mundra, as a plant, has his own debt, debt portfolio, and we calculate this is that.
Okay. That's excellent. Thank you so much. That's all from my side.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Noel Vaz from Union Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Hello. I just had one question on the upcoming solar module line. So I was just wondering, what exactly is the expected cost of production of this facility?
Sorry, could you just repeat your question?
Cost of production?
Uh.
It's still being worked out, so, it's little too early to say what will be the actual cost of production. Maybe in, by February, March, we will be in the position to give you the exact cost of production.
Okay. Yeah, no problem.
Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Gaurav Kumar from TRB Corporate Ventures. Please go ahead.
Hello, good evening, sir, and thank you for the opportunity.
... Sir, I just wanted to know about your home automation and smart switches business. How is this business doing, and what are your plans to scale up this business?
So, these are still work in progress, where we are trying to come up with new products as well as new solutions. So, these are still very small numbers, where we are trying to test the market and its viability. So at this stage, we may not be in a position to give you any specific details for that.
You are operating this business as a separate strategic business unit, or does it come under consumer business?
It comes under Tata Power.
Okay. And, sir, my next question is, regarding, supplementary PPAs, that you were about to sign with the state government of Gujarat and other states as well. So have you signed these supplementary PPAs?
No, no, we have not signed. We are now operating under Section 11, so it's not been signed.
Okay.
We are waiting for approval.
Thank you. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you. We'll take a last question from the line of Amit Bhinde from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Thank you for giving the opportunity. Sir, I wanted to understand that when Mundra was consolidated with standalone, it was expected that tax on the standalone NTD, but we see that the tax is coming, reflecting at around 20-25%. So why is that? And what should be the outlook on that? And the second question I wanted to understand is your CapEx plan for FY2024 and 2025.
The CapEx plan for FY 20, for the next year, we are still working on a strategy.
Yeah.
We'll let you know as and when we complete that. With respect to the tax, it's largely around the deferred tax reversal.
Okay.
We do not pay any tax at the Tata Power standalone level. We see it-
Have we informed?
No, we've been informed.
Okay.
You could have been informed today, no? Everyone was there.
Sorry.
No, sir, as I said, on a standalone basis, it do not have any, any cash tax payment because, they are carry forward losses. So what we would see is the deferred tax reversal only. There's no cash tax outcome.
Right. And, just on the CapEx for this year, next year, I understand you are still in the planning. For this year and H2, what should be the-
Well, I think in H1, we have spent close to about INR 4,500 odd crore, and possibly for the full year, we might land up getting between INR 11,000 odd crore, ±10%.
Sure. That is all, thank you.
Thank you. I would now like to hand over the call to Dr. Sinha for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
So thank you everyone for joining for this call. And in case you have any further queries, please connect with my investor relation team. You know both Rajesh and Kasturi, and we'll be more than happy to submit. We've tried to make the presentation much more simpler based on the feedback. So keep on giving us your feedback, and we'll try to make it a more analyst-friendly. And once again, wishing all of you a very happy Diwali, and hopefully we'll catch up soon. And thank you, Yashashri, for arranging the call.
It was my pleasure, sir. Thank you. On behalf of the Tata Power Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.