Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Tata Steel Analyst Call. Please note that this meeting is being recorded. All the attendees' audio and video has been disabled from the back end and will be enabled subsequently. I would now like to hand the conference over to Ms. Samita Shah. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
You're on mute, Samita.
Yeah, I hope I can be heard now. Yeah. So good afternoon. Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to this call to discuss our results for the second quarter of FY 2024. We published our results yesterday, and there was a detailed presentation explaining the same as well, uploaded on our website. I hope you had a chance to go through it. We had quite a few announcements also with the results, and we would be happy to share the details and provide you any clarifications you may require. We will be joined on this call by our CEO and Managing Director, Mr. T. V. Narendran, and our ED and CFO, Mr. Koushik Chatterjee.
Before I hand it over to them, I would like to remind you that this entire conversation today will be covered by the safe harbor clause on page two of our presentation. Thank you, and over to you, Narendran.
A few comments before I—Sorry, I think I forgot to unmute myself. Good afternoon, good morning, or good evening, depending on where you are. Thank you for joining the call. I'm gonna make a few comments and then hand over to Koushik. So Tata Steel, as you know, is focused on creating sustainable value, and our strategic priorities embodies a commitment to responsible growth while creating an equitable, shared, and prosperous future for all. We continue to make steady progress on this value creation journey, leveraging digitization and an agile business model. During the quarter, the steel prices across regions moderated on slowdown in economic activity, and in the EU... in the US and EU, elevated interest rates to manage inflation has adversely affected the demand. While in China, the persistent weakness in the property market continued to have an overhang on the prices.
In India, the steel prices were impacted by the global sentiment, but given the resilient demand, it witnessed a lower drop in prices, 3%, quarter-on-quarter, than the rest of the key markets. As a result, our net realization in India declined by about 2,400 INR per ton, quarter-on-quarter. We had guided about 3,000 INR per ton, so it's slightly better than that. Moving to our performance, India crude steel production was around 5 million tons. Production was broadly stable on a quarter-on-quarter basis, but up 5% on year-on-year basis. India deliveries grew by about 6% year-on-year, having close to 5 million tons in the last three quarters.
Amongst the segments, the automotive segment had the best second-quarter sales and was up 7% quarter-on-quarter, and we started producing full hard cold-rolled coils at the Kalinganagar cold rolling mill and have started receiving approvals from the automotive OEMs for our cold-rolled steel from Kalinganagar. Our retail sales, primarily to home builders, have continued to grow and have crossed 3 million tons in the last 12 months. Our well-established brands, such as Tata Tiscon, Tata Steelium, and Tata Astrum, had the best-ever second-quarter sales. Revenues from Tata Aashiyana, the e-commerce platform for individual home builders, witnessed an increase of more than 70% on quarter-on-quarter basis, and in the last 12 months, the revenues have exceeded INR 1,700 crores.
In Europe, steel deliveries were around 1.8 million tons in the second quarter on subdued demand, and the revenue per tonne was down about GBP 50-60 per ton in UK and Netherlands on a quarter-on-quarter basis. This has weighed on the performance in both geographies. The ongoing reline of one of the blast furnaces at IJmuiden in Netherlands, which accounts for 40% of our production there, has also impacted the Tata Steel Netherlands realizations because of the adverse product mix and other expenses. The relining is expected to be completed in the third quarter of FY 2024, which is this quarter. In terms of growth, multiple projects are underway across India, ranging from the 5 million ton per annum expansion at Kalinganagar, as well as growth in the downstream portfolio.
The downstream portfolio, which consists of our tubes business, our wires business, our packaging, our tinplate business, and the DIY business, is expected to grow from about 2 million tons to 7 million tons, which enables better product mix enrichment. We recently had a groundbreaking ceremony for the 0.75 million tons per annum EAF project at Ludhiana, and are targeting to start the plant in 2026. We are committed to achieve net zero by 2045 and are pursuing decarbonization of operations in a phased manner, calibrated to the regulatory framework, resources, government support, and customers in each of the geographies that we are in.
Accordingly, in September, we announced a proposed plan to invest in a state-of-the-art scrap-based EAF at Port Talbot, UK, at a cost of GBP 1.25 billion, with a government grant of over GBP 500 million. This is subject to relevant regulatory approvals, information and consultation process, and finalization of detailed terms and conditions. The transition to EAF-based steelmaking will result in the reduction of about 50 million tons of direct carbon emissions over a decade. There will also be impairment and restructuring costs, which Koushik will explain in more detail. Tata Steel Netherlands has been working intensely with the government of the Netherlands on the contours of decarbonization project, covering emissions and health standards.
Tata Steel Netherlands will shortly be submitting the detailed decarbonization proposal to the government of the Netherlands, seeking regulatory and financial support, which is critical to build a long-term and strong business case. The board of Tata Steel will duly consider the project for approval at an appropriate time. In India, we are entering into an agreement to source about 379 megawatts of renewable energy, renewable power for our operations, which will enable reduction of 50 million tons of carbon emissions over the next 25 years. This will significantly reduce our dependence on coal-based power plants. Looking ahead, in India, net realizations are expected to improve by about INR 2,200 per ton, quarter-on-quarter, aided by domestic demand, which has showed great resilience despite the renewed volatility in the global sentiment.
The coking coal consumption cost is likely to increase by about $10 per ton, quarter-on-quarter. In United Kingdom and Netherlands, improvement in costs are likely to offset the drop in NRs and drive an improvement in the performance on a quarter-on-quarter basis. I'm happy to share that Tata Steel has received the Safety and Health Excellence Recognition for 2023 by World Steel. We were recognized for our innovative approach to real-time visualization of risk movement that aims to provide real-time insights and alerts. These initiatives display our commitment to achieve zero harm. Thank you, and with that, I'll hand over to Koushik.
Thank you, Naren. Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to all those who have joined in. I will begin the quarterly performance provided on slide 25. Our consolidated revenue stood at INR 55,682 crore, and the consolidated EBITDA was INR 4,315 crore, which translates to a consolidated EBITDA margin of about 8%. Standalone performance was broadly stable, but the U.K. and the Netherlands performance has been adversely impacted during this quarter. Before we get into the numbers, I just want to also mention we have received sanction for the amalgamation of Tata Steel Long Products, that's TSLP, and Tata Steel Mining with Tata Steel Limited. Accordingly, the standalone financial statements that have been restated from first of April, 2022, to reflect the merger.
With this, the merger process for the two entities have been largely completed, and another five are in progress, as highlighted in slide 20. This portfolio simplification process will drive efficiencies and prevent value leakages. For the quarter, Tata Steel standalone EBITDA stood at about INR 6,917 crore, which translates to an EBITDA per ton of about INR 14,365. Excluding the Forex gains of about INR 464 crore, the EBITDA margin was broadly stable at about 19% on quarter-on-quarter basis. As provided on Slide 31, the drop in steel realization was offset by a lower cost. The standalone NRs declined by about INR 2,400 per ton on quarter-on-quarter basis due to market dynamics and seasonal factors.
The coking coal consumption cost was down by about $59 per ton on a quarter-on-quarter basis, and the conversion costs were down by about INR 2,600 per ton on a quarter-on-quarter basis. Our conversion costs have been fairly stable over the last three years, despite the inflationary pressures in the economy. At Tata Steel UK, the EBITDA loss was about GBP 132 million, compared to a loss of GBP 41 million in quarter one. On a ton basis, per ton basis, the EBITDA moved lower by about GBP 127 per ton, quarter-on-quarter. As shown in Slide 34, the steel production was lower due to the operational issues and the shutdown of the sinter plant.
This has weighed on the cost profile of the operations and led to elevated costs, which offset the decline in the coking coal consumption cost and natural gas spend. Coupled with drop in realization, this has resulted in lower spreads on a quarter-on-quarter basis. In Tata Steel Netherlands, the EBITDA loss stood at about EUR 110 million, compared to EUR 114 million in the first quarter. As shown in the slide 33, the drop in realization was offset by improvement in costs. Revenue decreased by about GBP 68 pounds per ton on subdued demand, but was fully offset on lower raw material cost, on decline of coking coal consumption costs, and lower conversion costs, primarily on decline in the natural gas spend, along with the repairs and maintenance reduction costs.
Looking ahead, with the completion of Blast Furnace Six in the third quarter, which is this quarter, it should drive the liquid steel production and further improvements in the product mix and cost. As previously explained, we have hedges in place for energy at both U.K. and Netherlands, and the drop in spot natural gas prices has been reflected in the second quarter PNL with a lag. I would also now like to brief you about the Tata Steel U.K. developments to supplement what Naren has said. Subsequent to the announcement of the agreement with the U.K. government for the decarbonization project in September, we are currently in discussion and consultation with the union and the employee representatives in the U.K. in relation to the restructuring of the business, its configuration within the transition time, and the eventual investment towards decarbonization.
The restructuring and the transition would commence after this consultation. Given our proposed plan to change the business model and the route for steelmaking, the existing heavy end assets at Tata Steel UK will only be used for a defined period. Accordingly, we have taken an impairment charge against the investments in the standalone financial statements in relation to the UK business. We have also recorded an impairment of assets and provisions for potential restructuring, closure, and redundancy costs in the consolidated financial statements in relation to the UK business. The impairment charge in Tata Steel standalone is INR 12,961 crores, and the charge in the consolidated books is about INR 3,255 crores. Let me explain the difference.
In standalone, the discounted cash flow value of every business is compared to the net carrying value of the investment made in that business. A deficit in that leads to impairment. Such impairment in standalone gets reversed in the consolidated statement. In the consolidated financial statement, the discounted cash flow of the individual businesses is compared to the carrying value of the PPE, or the plant and equipment, and the fixed assets.... In the above case, the carrying value in standalone was higher than the consolidated business, and that's why there's difference. Moving to taxes, there was a sharp drop this quarter. The current tax was about INR 1,105 crores and broadly in line with the tax on the profitability of the India operations.
The deferred tax credit of INR 1,333 crores has been driven by the merger and the completion of the British Steel Pension Scheme. Taxes should get normalized post all these mergers. The tax includes credits on account of TSLP and the merger on mining. And there are other tax adjustments which we can explain to you offline. Moving to the cash flows, the operating cash flow for the quarter stood at about INR 4,658 crores, and in part was driven by the favorable working capital movement. In the second quarter, there was a working capital release driven by the fall in the coking coal inventory and in volumes, around 200,000 tons, and in prices, drop in steel prices and reduction in debtors.
We spent about INR 4,553 crore in capital expenditure during the quarter and about INR 8,642 crore on the first half basis. As we keep prioritizing growth in India, including expansion of the downstream portfolio across wires, tubes, ductile iron pipe, and tinplate businesses. Overall, the operating performance at Tata Steel Netherlands and Tata Steel UK, higher CapEx and dividend payout have led to a decline in the cash and cash equivalent by about INR 6,352 crore. As a result, the gross debt has remained stable on quarter-on-quarter basis, but net debt has increased by about INR 5,600 crore. Our finance costs are broadly stable on a quarter-on-quarter basis. The group liquidity remains strong at about INR 27,637 crore, including about INR 12,691 crore of cash and cash equivalent.
As you're aware, Moody's have also upgraded our credit rating to investment grade in the month of September 2023. With that, I finish my comments, and thank you, and over to the floor for question and answers.
Thank you, sir. We will now begin with the question and answer session. We will be taking questions on audio and chat. To join the audio questions queue, please mention your full name and email ID in the chat box. Kindly stick to a maximum of two questions per participant and rejoin the queue should you have a follow-up question. We will unmute your mic so that you can ask your question. To ask questions on chat, please type in your questions along with your full name and email ID in the chat box. We will break for a moment as the queue assembles. The first question is from Sumangal Nevatia of Kotak. Sumangal, please go ahead.
Yeah. Am I audible?
Yeah. Yes.
Yeah. Good afternoon, and thanks for the opportunity. The first question is with respect to the developments in UK. So one is, we've taken the restructuring provisions, but what's the status of the discussion with employees, and when is it likely to conclude? And also just want to understand over three years, when the construction of the new plant will happen. In the previous discussions, we shared that we look to use the downstream assets of UK. So what sort of volume and EBITDA of just rolling do we expect over the interim period?
Koushik?
Yeah. So, Sumangal, the first is, as we mentioned, pretty detailed in our release yesterday, the conversation and the consultation process has started ever since our announcement on fifteenth of September. There is a proper process that we have to follow, which is stipulated even legally, and we are doing that, and we will do that. And it is a meaningful consultation, so we will obviously, as a responsible corporate, continue to hear their point of view, or any other suggestions or advice or any point that they may have on our proposal. And once we have looked at it over the next couple of weeks, we will certainly progress this conversation. So, I think as I can say, that this is progressing as per plan.
It is dealing with a very sensitive subject, and we are mindful about that, and but it is also about getting the investment process in place. So we continue to engage with the unions, and we'll continue to do so till it gets formally completed. The formal process takes about 45 days at the minimum as per legal requirements, but that formal process starts after a certain period. First, the informal process continues and give opportunities to both sides to explain positions. We have also had detailed engagement with the advisors of the unions, and we have shown them the counterfactual positions and our issues in relating to sustaining the business in its current vulnerable form, and also the operational risk and the market risk that we face.
So it is, it's a very intense and an exhaustive process, which we are currently in. Then we hope to complete as per the timelines that we have set for ourselves. As far as the transition period, yes, you are right. As per the proposal that we have agreed with the government and the proposal that we've put forward to the unions, it is important for us to continue to ensure market protection, and for which we will continue to focus on ensuring a stable supply chain to run the downstream unit. The volume should be in the ballpark region of 2.5 million tons-2.6 million tons.
But more details on this, I would be in a better position to give once the consultation gets over, and ensure that we have tied up all the ends as far as sourcing, production, all of that is concerned. So I think this will be a good time to talk about it in the next earnings call rather than now.
Understood. That's very helpful. Second question, continuing on the Europe division. I mean, we've seen Netherlands and UK both, the losses are kind of increasing. So one is, if you could just share some outlook on margins, near maybe next quarter and also over the next 2-3 quarters, how should it shape up, after the relining? And is this relining also getting a bit extended into 3Q? So these are the top, these are the two questions on Europe.
Yeah. So, Sumangal, I think, on Netherlands, yes, the blast furnace relining has extended to this quarter, as Koushik mentioned. We are expecting that by the end of November, latest by the first week of December, we'll have the blast furnace up and running. We expect the numbers of this quarter of Netherlands to be better than last quarter, but we expect it to be a bit up positive only from next quarter, you know, which is Q4. So there are a few things. Obviously, the blast furnace, which is down, accounts for 40% of our volume, so you're carrying fixed costs with 60% of the volume, so that has an impact, which is seen.
Secondly, as we mentioned last time, you know, we work on a forward hedge on gas prices, et cetera, so our energy costs, gas prices, in the second half should be lower than what it was in the first half in Netherlands, so that should help. So these are the... So volume should be better, spread—I mean, the costs should also be better. And the spreads, of course, the spot spreads are a concern in Europe just now, but we expect that, given the current levels, as you know, in Europe, some of the producers have already put down blast furnaces, so there'll be a better balance between demand and supply. So either coking coal prices have to come down or steel prices have to go up. So that's what we expect to happen in Q4. Yeah.
Understood. And the UK existing furnace—which quarter do we shut it down? Do we run it entirely in the second half?
So, Sumangal, I think a safe thing to say is that we will run it fully in this quarter, which is the third quarter. And post-consultation, I think we will be in a better position to tell you that when and how we are going to deal with the heavy end. And that would be a better way to kind of stay on this. But I think that in the transition period, as I said, we will continue to operate our downstream facilities.
Got it. Thank you so much. I'll join the queue back. Thank you, and all the best.
Yeah. Thank you.
The next question is from Tarang Agrawal of Old Bridge Capital. Tarang, please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon. A couple of questions from me. One on Netherlands. You know, what is the sustainability CapEx outlay that you're looking at? And, you know, would you expect a similar support that we've seen for some of the other European governments that have extended to your peers? So that's on Netherlands, the value of CapEx. The second is on UK. You know, if you could give us the net cash outflow and the timing of these cash flows, you know, as the transition plan starts, how is it going to be staggered over the next three-year period, and what is the quantum of it?
Yeah.
My sense is, you know, there'll be settlements, there'll be CapEx, but, you know, you'll have a reduced maintenance CapEx also. So summation of that would be helpful. Thank you.
Thanks, Tarang. I'll let Koushik answer the second one. On the first one, we don't want to give you specific numbers now, but I'll give you a few principles. I think, in Europe, when any steel producer is making submissions to government, I think the ask is 40%-60% of the CapEx that is required for the transition. That is one. Secondly, on OpEx, it depends on the country and the advantages or disadvantages that the country has. So it's more a question of creating a level playing field because, different countries are giving different supports to the, companies. So you don't want to end up at the other end of the transition at an operational disadvantage compared to where your peers are. So these are the two principles on which the, ask is curated.
The specific amounts, we will not want to discuss just now simply because there's a conversation going on with the government, and once we are somewhere close to you know, being able to share that, it's more definite, we also need to go to our board and discuss the proposal in its entirety. We will come back, but the principle is this.
Yeah. So, Tarang, the... On the second part of the question, which is on the cash outflows. So the project cash outflow, which is about GBP 1.25 billion, of which GBP 750 million will be borne by Tata Steel and about GBP 500 million will be grant from the UK government. And that spend will start more around the second half of FY-...
25, because we are currently in the detail engineering phase, and this engineering work takes a couple of months, about five months or so. And once that is got completed, then the grant agreement becomes effective, and then we start spending the money. So the initial spend is obviously done by Tata Steel, but that money comes in areas of a quarter, et cetera, and it, we go almost hand in hand. So that GBP 750 million follows typically how a normal organic growth project is, which is over a 4-year period. Even, I mean, last 20% is after commissioning. That is how the thumb rule is. So I think that is how we should take it.
In the meanwhile, what would happen is the restructuring cost is obviously more front-loaded than the CapEx spend, and the restructuring cost will be spent in the first half of the financial year 2024-2025. And that is the amount of that restructuring is something that will be negotiated or agreed upon, especially in relation to what relates to employee impact during the consultation phase. We wouldn't want to talk about it because it's commercially sensitive at this point of time, and we will obviously have to discuss the specifics of it. We know the numbers in our head, but I think commercially it would be important to talk about it once the consultation is over.
I understand, sir. Just, sir, would this also entail reduction in your current capital outlay for the Port Talbot capacity? because essentially-
Yes
... a part of the capacity will be mothballed, right? So to that extent, you should save some, you should see some savings on that CapEx, maintenance CapEx per se.
So the total CapEx in Port Talbot used to be typically around 80-90 million GBP a year. So with the heavy end in question in future years or during transition, the investment in our mind is only on the downstream, which is pretty small compared to the heavy end. So other than the Category One and Category Two CapEx, the heavy end currently, which is essentially for license to operate and safety, and ensuring the quality of the condition of the assets can continue to operate as we are in consultation, beyond that, big investments on the current assets are not in place.
Also, I think, there will be a saving on the maintenance OpEx, you know, because there's significant maintenance OpEx also currently, which goes in U.K. for the heavy end.
That's good.
Yeah.
Okay. Thank you.
The next question is from Amit Dixit of ICICI Securities. Amit, please go ahead. Amit, we are unable to hear you. We request you to please send in your question via chat or rejoin the queue. We will now move on to our next question. The next question from Satyadeep Jain of Ambit. Satyadeep, please go ahead.
Hi, am I audible?
Yes.
Yep.
Hi, just switching gears to India for a bit. Just wanted to see what's the progress on KPO two. Is it on time and budget?
Yeah. So I think, what we mentioned, the pellet plant is already operating. One line is, full out, the second line will start this month. So pellet plant is operational, cold rolling mill is operational. These are the two that we prioritized. The full HCR that we make out of the cold rolling mill is already getting approved by automotive customers after we've annealed it in, Jamshedpur and sent it. The blast furnace, should start in the next, six months or so. In fact, earlier, the better, but we are basically targeting that by, you know, in the next six months, we will start the blast furnace.
We are also starting the second caster in the steel melt shop, this quarter, so that will give us another few, I mean, at least, some additional volume because the blast furnace, the capacity with the existing blast furnace, we can produce a little bit more. So I think one by one, all the facilities are coming on stream, you know, the coke ovens, blast furnace will start, then you'll have the third caster in the steel melt shop coming on, et cetera. And the galvanizing lines and the annealing lines in Kalinganagar are also coming on next year. So next financial year, you will see, all the... most of the critical facilities being commissioned in different stages of ramp-up.
Okay. Secondly, coming back to Europe, just, you mentioned that you'll finalize the numbers and operating drivers during the transition period in the next quarter, but and the volume guidance also. Broadly, you do expect to be cash breakeven, at least, during the entire transition period, and also you've taken write-downs based on comparing BCF with the carrying value. Given the life of Netherlands is also another 6-7 years, and maybe your discounted value is higher right now, would you look at... If you have to take a look at impairment, have you taken full impairment of heavy end assets in U.K., which means they've been driven down to zero?
What kind of potential could be there in the next couple of years or so, in any other asset?
... So, Satyadeep, I think, as far as UK is concerned, given the fact that this is our... it is a definitive play, as you know, that once you sign up with the term sheet with the government providers of capital, and then it's a procedures to move on. I think the upstream gets very much defined in terms of its operational longevity, certainly financial longevity, and that's the basis on which we have taken the write down, entire write down of the upstream, as part of this impairment that you see, which is both the asset side and obviously from the investment side in the standalone. In Netherlands, we are not in that state at this point of time.
In fact, as Naren mentioned in the early part, we are relining the blast furnace, so therefore, that, it's a renewal of life as far as Blast Furnace Six is concerned. In Netherlands, the decarbonization project is the pace is high, but in terms of timeline is behind UK at this point of time. And therefore, once the transition plan is finalized, and once the transition configuration is finalized, that is the time when we will keep doing the assessment, and then, and hopefully we will be able...
Because Netherlands is fundamentally more profitable, so its ability to have a more, a more stable, economically stable transition is, much higher than in, in the UK, because these assets, in the UK, have actually, from a condition of the asset perspective and the ability to create or generate cash flows have been lagging for some time, as you would be aware. So I think Netherlands and UK are in different stages at this point of time. We will be looking at, the feedback from the government, and as we continue to engage with them very intensely, understand the pace and the flow of the transition, and come back to the Tata Steel UK, and India board, and, and then we will know that how the pacing of it will work.
So I think that is, it's slightly different in Netherlands compared to the U.K. And Netherlands also has a very rich, downstream asset portfolio, which is linked, and with the new blast furnace coming in, it is a slightly different story.
Just a clarification on that, cash flow during transition period, just broadly, you expect it to be cash flow positive?
Yeah, sorry, you asked that question. So I think, yes, broadly, based on our assumptions, whether it is, our-- the way we've been planning is that this business has to sustain during the transition, so it would... Our assumption is that we would be sourcing, converting, taking out, cost in a manner such that it's very lean during the transition and hence be neutral on its, cash flows, other than the, other than the one-offs, which is the restructuring, cost and the project cost.
Thank you.
The next question is from Kirtan Mehta of BOB Capital. Kirtan, please go ahead.
Thank you, sir, for the opportunity. One question as a follow-up on the U.K. transition cost. Currently, we are running our, with the shutdown of the blast furnace in the Netherlands, we are currently running in a slab to rolling mode. What would be the gross spread that we are currently earning there? As of now, it's not sufficient to cover the high associated sort of the fixed costs there. That's the reason we are running into the losses. But how that gross spread compare with the U.K. when we operate only in the slab mode?
Yeah, go ahead, Koushik
. No, no, go ahead. Go ahead.
So the current spreads, you know, there's a spot spread, and there's a full spread. The full spread is around EUR 240. You know, the spot spreads are what are very much lower than that. That's because the coking coal prices are high and the steel prices are low. But the spread at which we operate is around 240-250, and we are making a loss in Netherlands because obviously when you run at 60% capacity, the fixed costs get distributed over smaller volumes, and at EUR 240, you can't be making money, you know, and that's where we are making losses.
As far as Europe, I mean, UK is concerned, I think the larger point which Koushik is making is, obviously, this is all subject to consultations and where we end with the unions, but broadly, the plan is whatever we do, how can we do the transition in a cash neutral or cash positive way? I think that's primarily the objective, whether it is slabs or coils or whatever, is it that we bring in. Because there are two, three objectives of the transition: How can we be cash neutral or cash positive? Two is, how can we keep the downstream units running, because that also has an impact, 50% of the workforce in the UK works in the downstream units. And the third, and most important, is how do we make sure that our customers are serviced?
Thank you. Just one clarification, 240 spread, when we are talking about it's an operation on the integrated spread, but if we are not sort of having a blast furnace and have operating only on slab, then what would be the conversion spread that we earn from slab while we're in the Netherlands currently? Would we have any idea around that number?
I don't know if Koushik wants to answer that, but broadly, you know, the slabs that we used honestly are high-cost slabs, which we produced last year.
... and kept in stock in anticipation of the reline. So that's part of the reason why we have a negative EBITDA, or we've had NRV losses in the last two, three quarters, because you had to produce slabs when you could, and that was last year, and gas prices and everything else were at its highest level. We built slab stocks of about 700,000 tons before the last one was relined. Now, we've drawn down the stocks. That translates into working capital release, but they were all high-cost slabs and also contributed to the financial performance of Netherlands over the last few years. But typically, slab, Hot Rolled Coil gaps are not so great, and nobody would in Europe on an ongoing basis, be looking at bringing slabs and making Hot Rolled Coils and sell.
A lot of our hot-rolled coils are also sold to customers who seek approvals, et cetera. So that's more a temporary situation than something that we look for as a long-term solution. Koushik, I don't know if you want to add more color to it.
No, I just wanted to. I think I was just guessing. Is the question-answer that you are trying to get is, if in a European situation it purchased raw materials in an integrated basis, the average EBITDA per percentage is about 8%, 6%-8%. In case of a conversion model, that falls down to somewhere around 3%. So I think that is broadly the way in which it works.
Understood, sir. And just one more clarification. I think you mentioned in the opening remarks about the coking coal reduction, that the coking coal cost increase that we can see in quarter three, I missed that number. Would you be able to sort of indicate that number again?
So it's different in different operating units. In India, Q3 is going to be about $11 per ton, $10-$11 per ton higher than Q2. In Netherlands, it's going to be about $60-$65 per ton lower. I'm talking of consumption, because in Netherlands, last quarter, a lot of higher cost coal was used. And in UK, I think it's going to be about $20 per ton lower in Q3 compared to Q2.
Right. So against the $50-$60 dollar increase that hundred dollar increase that we are seeing in the coking coal reduction in India, we are only anticipating $10-$11. So we are benefiting from a sort of a availability of the higher inventory in the coking coal in India operations?
No, the—I mean, basically, you're using the coking coal that you bought last quarter, right? So last quarter, the prices were dropping till September, if I remember right. Then it started going up from September. So what you bought in July and August, it comes typically, you will get the coking coal two to three months after you buy it or you contract it. So that's the, that's what comes into the consumption. So you had a higher reduction. I think we had a $60 reduction in Q2 compared to Q1, and we have $11 increase in Q3 compared to Q2.
The reverse is true in Netherlands, where we consumed some of the higher cost coal, so we had only a $7 reduction in Q2 compared to Q1, but we have a $60 reduction in Q3 compared to Q2. So it's basically the inventory flowing through.
That's good. It's a lag effect. That's it.
Understood, sir. Thank you. Thanks for that.
The next question from Amit Murarka of Axis Capital. Amit, please go ahead. Amit, we are unable to hear you. We request you to please send in your question via chat or rejoin the queue. We will now move on to the next question. The next question from Ashish Jain of Macquarie. Ashish, please go ahead.
Hello.
Yes, Ashish, we can hear you.
Hi. Hi, good afternoon, everyone. So, sir, my first question is, you know, on in UK, one, you know, this provision that we have taken of, roughly INR 2,400-2,500 crore, that includes some provision towards, the one-time cost that you might incur in, UK related to employees. Is that the right way to understand?
There are two elements in the-
Right
. provisions that we have taken in the UK. The first one is in relation to the PPE, which is-
Right
in relation to the way in which impairment is taken.
Right.
And the second provision is in relation to potential constructive obligations triggering out of the redundancies and closures, and restructuring costs. So both have been taken.
Right. Right. So, sir, my focus is that, you know, 24, 25 number, that is our current assessment or best case, judgment of what the one-time employee related cost could be. Is that the right way to think?
It has got multiple elements in that. It has got, it's got. It's a broad bracket of restructuring, so it has got closure, potentially if there is a closure or a restructuring, if there is a contract termination, if there is, people numbers. So all it's like a basket of provisions.
Basket. Got it. Got it. So secondly, you know, in terms of, you know, so we spoke about where our costs might go down in U.K., in terms of lower maintenance and all, which is, well understood. But, you know, let's assume, you know, this employee negotiation gets over in one Q, next calendar year. Shall we also assume that whatever is the redundancy, the cost related to that also goes out from two Q itself, and hence our fixed costs will decline sharply in U.K.? Is that the way to think?
So, you know, it's a bit of a sensitive subject to talk about just now before we kind of complete the consultation, because it also involves the nature of people being impacted in the context of the fact that there is a phasing that may happen. Based on our proposal at this point of time with pre-consultation and post-consultation, it might change. But normally, what happens is it's not, it's not a switch off, it is a phasing and it—the costs will be incurred over maybe two or three quarters in a proportionately sliding scale basis based on the numbers that we agree, et cetera.
But I think, in the provisions that has been taken is, to take it on a gross basis, and as and when the restructuring is agreed upon, or negotiated with the unions, it will be the numbers will the cash outgo will happen. So I sense that it will, the bulk of the cash outgo will be in the first half of the financial year 2024-2025.
So, Koushik, sorry to harp on this, you know, but just to clarify this. So I understand that the maybe bulk of the, you know, one-time outgo happens in first half next year, or whatever be the time frame. But whenever that happens, from that, sorry, since then, shall we assume the fixed cost will decline? You know, the reason I'm asking is, you know, because if I, let's say, take a, you know, 24-month, 36-month kind of a time frame, where we will be importing, steel and servicing, you know, the, the UK market, should we assume that?
Because if the fixed cost doesn't come down, let's say, from day one or day two, would it be a continuous drag to the cash flows in U.K., you know, where I'm coming from, you know, just to get better clarity on that.
Yeah. So your, Ashish, your understanding is absolutely correct, that once that agreed time frame of reduction is concerned, so the whole focus of this whole restructuring, reinvestment-
Right
...or the transition period, as both Naren and I mentioned, is to run the business in transition, which does not drag on cash flows. So therefore, fixed cost is a very important part because once you don't have the heavy end, which is the blast end of Port Talbot.
Right
... then you would certainly reduce the fixed cost in one go, but effect of that takes two quarters. But whenever, as you said, since it happens, it will certainly come down very sharply, across the organization, and therefore, that is how it will sustain itself, as I said, mentioned a while back. Because your fundamental EBITDA spreads also come down, and in that, you have to make, profits or cash flows. You have to ensure that your entire fixed cost, overheads, everything runs very, very tightly.
Right. Right. And my just my second question, it's a very small question. Just if I, if I, you know, extend the current spreads in Netherlands to Q4, when, you know, we'll be fully operational and, you know, maintenance and all will be behind us, relining done, everything. On current spread basis, we would be making losses in Q4 also, I guess, right?
Not at the EBITDA level. We will be EBITDA positive.
In Netherlands? Oh, is it? Okay. Okay, okay, great, sir. I'll, I'll come back in the queue for more questions. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
The next question is from Amit Dixit of ICICI Securities. Amit, please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Good afternoon, everyone. Am I audible now?
Yes, please.
Yes.
Yeah. So it's after a long time that I've got an opportunity to ask the question. Actually, three or four calls I've been missing on it. Anyways, I have a couple of questions. The first one is, essentially, if you could bridge the gap between EBITDA, TS EBITDA actually, for last quarter and this quarter in three buckets: realization, coking coal, and relining costs, that would be great. That is the first question I have.
So when you say EBITDA bridge, in what—you want the EBITDA bridge to what? Cash flows or EBITDA bridge to-
No, no, no. So EBITDA, what was there in last quarter and EBITDA loss in this quarter. So for $96, for example, from $96 to $170. So what is the bridge? How do we break it into three buckets: realization decline, coking coal decline, and coking coal increase or and basically the relining cost?
I'll give you two of the three. We'll think of the third one. On the realization, Q2 over Q1 for Netherlands was -61 GBP per ton. Okay? Q2 over Q1. That's the last quarter over the previous quarter. As far as coking coal is concerned, it was -7 USD. I think. Yeah.
Yes.
-$7 a ton. Okay? Relining, basically the impact is volumes. So Q1, we didn't have any. I think we had slightly more volume in Q2 because maybe we sold more or whatever, but production-wise, not so much difference between Q1 and Q2. But both Q1 and Q2 were bad because you were only operating one blast furnace, so the costs get distributed over lower volumes. But I don't, I don't know, Samita or Koushik has a specific number to give. So-
Okay, that is... Yeah, sure. Go ahead, yeah.
No, no, I was just substantiating that the volume impact between Q1 and Q2, we have sold about 100,000 tons lower in Q2 compared to Q1. The realization, as Naren mentioned, was about sixty, sixty EUR per ton lower. And then, there were the other costs for coal, for example, was in the largely on the reduction level. And there were gas prices and energy prices were also lower. Repair and maintenance prices were slightly lower. So that's broadly the bridge that we have. There were no one-offs included in this.
Okay. The second question is essentially on net debt. So while we have seen net debt going up this quarter, despite, I mean, the operating cash flow being almost at par with CapEx. Now, going ahead, the performance is going to improve in India as well as, you know, in Europe. So is this the peak net debt level that we are seeing for the current year and for, you know, next three, four quarters, maybe?
For the next two quarters, I would say that, you know, on the assumption that the Netherlands comes back in the way that we are planning, the net debt number should be around this. There could be plus, minuses. We will certainly want to reduce the net debt from where we are. But given the market conditions, especially internationally and also depending on where the restructuring expenses are when it is going out, I think it is broadly in this range. It will be for the next two quarters. But our long-term goal of reducing net debt remains. You know, we've been pushed back by certain events and circumstances in the market, but I think we will continue to focus on reducing the net debt from where we are.
But cost of restructuring and cost of CapEx, whatever we will incur at TSUK, I think it is safe to assume that, you know, given the market conditions, net debt level should come down from here. Cost of restructuring, let's-
That is correct. That's what we are saying.
Sure. And lastly, if I may, if you can explain the BSPS-related provision in the notes, and is there a cash outflow also associated with it? Because we thought that BSPS step is over now, but suddenly we saw this provision again.
No, so this is not a provision as such. So you see, BSPS was sitting in our books. And we closed the buy-in in the first quarter. With the buy-in getting completed, there was a certain amount of surplus which actually belongs to the members. So that surplus has to be as part of taking out of the balance sheet effectively, that surplus is the one which is gone in. So it's not a provision, it's of course. The surplus was at some point in time credited to the balance sheet, so now it's gone away from the balance sheet, and there was a deferred tax impact on account of that. So the BSPS, there's no cash outgo. The BSPS is a done story at this point of time.
What in Q1, it was completed. The buy-in was completed, now the separation has been completed in some ways.
Great. Thank you, and all the best. That's it. Thanks.
Thank you.
Next question is from Ritesh Shah of Investec. Ritesh, please go ahead. Ritesh, we are unable to hear you. We request you to please send in your question via chat or rejoin the queue. We will now move on to our next question. The next question is from Ashish Kejriwal of Nuvama. Ashish, please go ahead. Ashish, we are unable to hear you. We request you to please send in your question via chat or rejoin the queue. We will now move on to the next question. The next question is from Ashish Jain of Macquarie. Ashish, we request you to please go ahead.
Hi, hi. Am I audible?
Yeah.
Yes.
So, sir, my question is on India growth plans. I think you clarified that the Kalinganagar 5 million ton will come in the next 6 months or so?
I said the Blast Furnace will start-
Right.
And then it will ramp up. So you would see next year as a year of ramp-up of Kalinganagar, next financial year.
Right. So, sir, what are we planning in terms of our next phase of growth? Because we have a well-laid-out plan in terms of where we want to be in, you know, in financial year 30, in terms of domestic capacity.
Yeah.
What is the thought process in terms of when do we take up the next phase of expansion, because-
Yeah
... there is a 3- to 4-year timeframe for that.
Sure. So one is the ongoing projects are, like I said, Kalinganagar and the Ludhiana EAF project, which the groundbreaking has just been done, and in the next 2 years, we should have that capacity up. That's 0.75. So these are clear-cut for the next 2 years. Over the next 6 months, we will be finalizing the plans for Neelachal expansion and also working on the Kalinganagar phase 3. So in terms of opportunity, we can grow Neelachal from 1 million to 5 million over the next few years, and the plans are being developed, will be taken to the board in the next few months. We have an opportunity to take Kalinganagar from 8 to 13. As we finish this expansion, you can move seamlessly into the next phase.
And the Bhushan plant in Meramandali, which can go from 5 to 6.5 as a first phase. The second phase, moving it from 6.5 to 10, will need a little bit more land in the surrounding area. So if you look at Bhushan going to 6.5, Kalinganagar going to 13, Neelachal going to 5, you're already at about 25. Jamshedpur is already at 11, so you have 36. You have at least one EF, which is the Ludhiana, so you're pretty close to 37. And beyond that to 40, you have an option of scaling up other EFs. We are already looking at south as the next location.
No, Naren, sorry, sir, I understand, you know, the roadmap and all because, you know-
Yeah
... we have been talking about it. My, my point was more like, you know, why are we kind of delaying taking up the expansion? Are we kind of going slow because of our balance sheet focus? Because if I compare with what our peers are doing in terms of expansion, you know, they, at least at this moment, seem to be a bit more aggressive or ahead of time, you know, and especially given the India growth story and the volume expectation and all. Do we think that we are running the risk of kind of losing market share from, at least from a capacity point of view?
Not really. I think, of course, we will keep an eye on the balance sheet, and we wanna make sure that we drive that balance between our debt levels, balance sheet, and the growth. But India is value accretive growth, so I think India business is always cash positive, and we can, in some sense, fund the growth. So to that extent, the India growth will always get priority. But we are also, you know, going through a process where a lot of detail engineering is done. So we are trying to reduce the cash-to-cash cycle in our expansion projects. So to that extent, we are doing a lot more engineering work before we start spending, taking it to a higher FEL levels before we start the spend.
So the work is going on continuously. There's no slowdown in the pace of work, but we will obviously time it appropriately. And we have said we will be 40 million or we can be 40 million tons by 2030, so that is very much on track.
If you can comment on it, are we likely to kind of prioritize NINL first just to optimize the cost there? Because the current scale-
Yeah
... is quite small, or, we are open to everything, you know, at this moment?
I think in terms of sequence, apart from the EAF projects, which can operate independently, I think after Kalinganagar 5 million, which is moving from 3-8, the next phase is most likely to be Nilachal expansion, and then you have both Bhushan and the Kalinganagar 8-13 happening parallelly.
Okay, great. Thank you so much.
Yeah.
Excellent.
Thanks.
Thank you, sir. I would now like to hand over the conference to Ms. Samita Shah for the chat questions. Over to you, ma'am.
Thanks. Thanks, Henshu. So we'll start with the questions. I think many questions on TSUK. Is the restructuring now done, and does it include employee separation costs? And what will be the CapEx guidance now for FY 25?
So the restructuring is not done. We have taken provisioning, as both Naren and I mentioned, that we are undergoing a consultation process. That is the process laid by the law of the land in the UK, and that process involves first the informal consultation and then the formal consultation. We've, over the last one and a half months, been in informal consultation with the unions, their advisors, their reps at the ground level, and we will shortly commence informal consultation when we finish the informal consultation of hearing them and them hearing us on our way forward, and the transition plan, as well as the financial impact that the running of that business is causing. So the restructuring is planned, but it's not in the execution phase. It will happen in some...
In the way that we are proposing, and in agreement with the union. The unions obviously are very sensitive to the impact of the restructuring, and we recognize that. And as I said earlier, as a responsible corporate, we'll do all that we can do in a coordinated manner. So it's not not completed, but we have a constructive obligation arising out of the fact that any restructuring poses, and that's what's been provided.
Yeah. Thank you. The other question was on the CapEx for FY 25, you know-
So I think... Yeah, so I think, it would be best to talk about it in the next call, in the first quarter, because that's when the plan gets finalized. Obviously, the priority-wise, Kalinganagar is the number one priority to get completed. We want to ensure that the plant, the facilities get started. So that's the main priority, and we can see that FY 2025, that will rank the highest. This year, our spend has been higher on India CapEx, and it will continue to be so in the next year, too.
Thank you. There is another question on TSUK. I think you answered it, but maybe you could reiterate. Have we taken complete provision for impairment?
In the U.K., yes, we have taken... I think there was a question earlier that, Have you taken complete provision for the heavy end? The answer to that is yes, and we have both on the asset side as well as on the investment side. As far as U.K. is concerned, we've taken the provisions.
... Thank you. The next question is also on UK. It says the International Steel Trade Association have raised concerns about Tata Steel UK utilizing most of the safeguard quotas in the past few quarters. So how will Tata Steel UK continue to import steel, and how will that actually work?
So I think there are safeguard quotas at this point of time, and we will look to engage formally with the trade regulatory authorities at appropriate time. And because the quotas are also in the context of the fact that if the upstream in the UK does not operate, we are the only flat product producer. So from a trade perspective, that will be addressed in due course of time.
Okay. Thank you. There is a question on Chinese steel imports, which I suppose is for India. It says we have seen... No, it might not be for India. It says we have seen over 1 million tons of imports in the first half of the fiscal year. Do you think the government will start an anti-dumping investigation?
So I think, the government has recently also mentioned that they'll be looking at the certifications that are required and whether the steel coming in has those appropriate certifications. So to me, yes, imports is higher than it has been last year. We've seen worse in the past. The larger concern to me is less of Chinese imports into India, more of Chinese exports across the world, because that's, already 8 million tonnes for the last few months, which is not a good situation, from an international price point of view. The Indian market has been strong, and so, domestic prices have been stable because everyone's able to sell what they produce. But, internationally, we are hoping and expecting that China will be exporting less over the next few months than they did in the last six months.
If they go back to the 5-6 million tonnes a month level, then you'll have more stable steel prices. In the past, we've seen 10 million tonnes a month level, and now we have last 4 months, 5 months, it's been at 8 million tonnes a month. In India, yes, we are watching the imports. If it, of course, keeps going up, then there is certainly a case for looking at it, and we will talk to the government at that time. Yeah.
Thank you. Next two questions are on India. This is about the subsidies and the mergers. The first one is, when do we plan to integrate NINL with standalone? And do we get any tax benefits because of the mergers of Tata Steel Long Products and other entities?
Yeah. So first question on NINL, as part of the demerger divestment process, there was a cooling off period of three years before... And this is not for NINL, it's generally. And therefore, we will have to wait for that period, before we consider that. But in the meanwhile, the NINL, as Naren mentioned, the expansion, the stabilization, and the sweating of the assets are continuing. So yes, there is a time period after which we can consider that. And the tax losses of TSLP, et cetera, are part of the integration planning, and which you see some of it also reflected in the balance sheet.
Thank you. The next question is on our Abja bonds. What are your plans to refinance the 2024 bond maturities? And also another question, whether the CapEx and working capital trends will continue to reduce cash balance in the next quarter.
So the first one, the Abja bonds, we are looking certainly as part—it's, it forms part of our de-leveraging. There are three elements of that bond, and we will certainly look at our cash flow planning for next year. And then if we are confident about repaying some part of it and refinancing the balance, we would certainly want to reduce and get the Abja bonds paid off in due course of time, whenever they're due, mostly next year and then in 2028. And that's how we are planning our financials on that basis. As far as CapEx is concerned, and the cash burn is...
Cash levels are concerned, I think the CapEx will soon turn into generation of CapEx as the phase two expansion of Kalinganagar comes in. So we should start seeing that benefit from FY 2024-25 second half in particular. And then as the ramp-up reaches, 2025-26 should be the one where we will get the maximum benefit. So once those kind of things happen, the debt levels will certainly start looking down.
Thank you. The next question is back on Europe. What kind of sales volume do we expect from TS UK and Netherlands in FY 2024 and FY 2025?
FY 2024 and 2025, one second. Let me do this. I think FY 2024 numbers, we had guided for earlier.
I think the projection now is about 8.5 million.
Got you.
Yeah.
FY twenty-four.
Yes.
Yeah.
That is total TSE.
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
25, I think, hopefully we'll go back to the longer-term level because there's 8.5 factors in that we had a blast furnace down for quite some time. So Samita can share with you
more closer to 10.
Yeah, 9, between 9 and 10. Yeah.
The next question again is on volumes for FY 25, and we don't really give them so early, but I'll just take this question: What is the timeline for KPO 2 blast furnace commissioning? Which I think you answered. How much commercial volume is expected in FY 25? So I think this is more related to TSK phase 2.
Yeah. So I think we'll probably give better guidance in the next call. Blast Furnaces ramp up fast. We have then the steel melting shops and the hot strip mills also to... In fact, we will probably have a bit of extra slabs for some time, but I think we'll be in a better position to give guidance in the next analyst call for next year's volumes.
Yeah. Thank you. Again, your questions on UK. I'll just club a couple of them. What will be the cash outflow in one-time restructuring, excluding the staff related cost? And what is the funding plan for the GBP 75 million CapEx needs of UK transition? And will there be any further impairment charges expected?
So the last one first, and I don't expect, we don't expect any further impairment charges in the UK. We've taken all of that. The funding plan for GBP 750 million will be a mix of, first, the equity from India and, part of it could be debt. That is something, that we are working on. I think the cash flows are strong enough, as projected, to support that. So we will combine the two, but there will be a larger equity component from India to support it, and then we can replace the same. I - What was the first question that he said something?
This was about the cash outflow in terms of the restructuring costs at U.K., excluding employee costs.
Well, that's like trying to slice the cake. I think we just need to go through the consultation process first, and then we will be able to firm that up. I can give you the elements of that restructuring, which will be elements like, you know, decommissioning or mothballing any of the facilities, especially as in our current context, the hot strip mill will have to be upgraded, the caster has to be upgraded. So during the time these are upgraded, they will be decommissioned or mothballed to facilitate that one. So I think those are the ones I would say that the redundancy provisions or the restructuring costs largely relates to the people, but we don't yet have a handle on the number till we complete the consultation process.
Thank you. The next question is on India, on the NRs and the market conditions. I think you mentioned it in your speech, Naren, but,
Yeah
... maybe you can just elaborate about it and the outlook for the rest of the quarter as well.
I think what we've guided is, Q3 will be about INR 2,200 per tonne higher than, Q2, as far as, realizations are concerned. Like I said, demand is strong. We've seen 10% growth in consumption, year-on-year, because all engines are firing, automotive is strong, construction is good, rural markets are picking up. So I think the only kind of, cap is a little bit more on what's happening in the international markets and international prices, but domestic is quite strong.
Thank you. We've moved to Netherlands, where there are questions about the potential decarbonization project. What will be the CapEx? What is the configuration we are looking at? Would there be a production loss in the interim, and how will we fund it? I'll just club three, four questions.
So... Sorry, you want to go?
No. Go ahead, Koushik.
I think just now we are in conversation with the government on the configuration. Based on that configuration, the CapEx will be finalized. It is the intent is, as we said earlier, that the Blast Furnace 6 will continue because it's a new, new furnace, and then one of the other furnace will get replaced. So, what is the configuration exactly is something that we will be looking at. But roughly, from a volume terms, it will be the first phase will be a 3 million tonne transition. But I think the funding, the CapEx, et cetera, is the matter of negotiation and discussion with the government, and we are deeply engaged in it.
The submission of the broader plan is going to happen shortly, and then based on the feedback, as Naren mentioned, we will go through the phase during which the negotiation for the support is discussed, and the balance will be by the company, largely out of Tata Steel Netherlands, and that's the funding plan that we will finally come about and disclose. So there's some time to do that. It's not happening imminently, but it'll certainly happen in the near future.
Thank you. There is a question on India now, which is more about, strategy vis-a-vis downstream assets. Is it about market share? Is it about profitable growth? Can you explain how you see this growth panning out in India?
So I think downstream has always been an important part of our strategy because we see that, as you have more downstream businesses, you're closer to the, customers, final consumers. You are also insulated to some extent, from the cyclicality, or at least there is a lag in the cycles, and that, helps us. So our biggest downstream presence is in, the tubes business, the pipes business, which is today 1 million tons, and we want to take it to about 4 million tons, by the end of the decade. And that will keep pace with our hot rolling capacity.
When we are at 40 million tons of steel, we will have about 27 million tons of flat products, so we think a 4-5 million ton tube business is a good footprint in downstream to support the upstream as well as add value to the upstream. The second big downstream business is we have the wires business, which is modeling to long products, where, again, we are a large player with more than 0.5 million tons and a strong market share in segments like the stranded wires and tire bead wires, et cetera. There again, we will—we want to double it in the next few years, and that will also be aligned with the Nilachal expansion.
The third one is the packaging or the tinplate business, where again, we are about 400,000, and we want to take it to about 1 million tons. That will also support the flat products business because it's a downstream of the flat products business. I'm talking only of India because we have a big, big packaging business in Europe as well. The last one is, of course, linked to metallics, which is a DI pipes business that is downstream for the pig iron that we make through the mini blast furnaces that we have in Tata Metaliks. There again, we are a big player, and we aim to become, Koushik, about 1 million tons, I think. Yeah, 1 million tons over the next year. So we think these businesses, which have always traditionally added value, these may be...
The EBITDA margins of downstream are lower than the typical steel business, but the ROIC tends to be higher because these businesses are run like that, and I think that's our ambition as far as downstream. There are many other smaller things that we do, but these are the four big ones.
Thank you. We have some more questions on the bonds. I think we have either some bond investors or some banks on the call. So this is in terms of the bond maturities for next year. Will you come offshore, or will you look to do onshore financing instead?
So I think it's premature to say that, but, we would certainly first look at what we can do internally and then, and the balance outside. But, typically, we'll first look at, also look at options, and the India balance sheet, in preference to anything offshore.
Thank you. And, I think the last question is on TSN. This is about, again, the performance in this quarter, and I think we mentioned about slabs, et cetera. So there are a few questions on how do we manage really the slab inventory? Do we have a policy, and what is our approach towards managing the price risk, for TSN as well as TSUK because they buy slab?
So normally, TSN, we don't buy slabs. It's just that we stocked up on slabs because we knew the blast furnace was going down, and we needed the slabs to take care of our customers and our orders. But otherwise, it's a fairly balanced facility. We make as much slabs as we can consume, and if there are extra slabs, we can always look at selling it, but we don't necessarily buy slabs in Netherlands. UK also, we don't buy slabs. But going forward, depending on, as Koushik said, the outcome of the consultations and the way we plan the transition, we will decide what to do and when. But again, I repeat what Koushik and I have said, whatever we do, we will try to make sure that the business is run in a cash neutral or cash positive way.
Thank you. There's one more question, I think, in terms of Tata Tinplate. So this essentially says that results have been poor at a time when the demand has been quite strong. Is there an excess supply of tinplate in the Indian market? And can you comment on the market position?
I think there are fundamentally two points. One is that the value addition, which is the gap between the hot rolled coil and the tinplate, has shrunk compared to the previous quarter significantly. There is an issue, not on supply of prime tinplate, because that's not the point. The issue has been there has been a lot of import of non-prime tinplate into India, and that has created a supply and demand imbalance, which has also, from a health point of view and a product quality point of view, been taken up, and hopefully, this will get reversed in the future. We also see a certain amount of firming up of the value addition and improvement from the value addition that was there in the second quarter.
The second quarter was really difficult because it suddenly shrunk. But as I said, it's not because of supply of prime tinplate from us and our peers, but it was more on the non-prime, the imports that came in.
Thank you. I think that ends the questions we have, so we will end the call now. Thank you very much, everybody, for joining us today, and I hope we were able to provide you all the clarifications you sought. Until the next call, thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you, everyone. Thanks.