Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to The Indian Hotels Company Limited Earnings Conference Call for Q4 FY2022-2023. On the call, we have with us Mr. Puneet Chhatwal, Managing Director and CEO, IHCL, and Mr. Giridhar Sanjeevi, EVP and CFO, IHCL. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. At this time, I would like to hand over the conference call to Mr. Puneet Chhatwal. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining this call. Let me give you basically two directions on this call. The first one being what the year meant for Indian Hotels, the year gone by, and what is the outlook, and what we can expect in this year to come and in the short term till 2025. On the year gone by, we have four pillars: performance, growth, brandscape, and our ESG initiatives. On performance, we have had a record year of performance. If you take the three best consecutive years in the history of Indian Hotels, which was 2006-2008, followed by 2017-2020, the combined performance of the 3 years is less than the financial performance of this year. That is really driven by growth, which is industry-leading.
We have the highest pipeline of projects by our brandscape, which we reimagined almost five years ago and were derailed for a bit because of COVID. During COVID also, we added a few other brands and services. Also, you know, adding brands which were adding high margins. That resulted in an enterprise revenue of over INR 10,000 crores, close to INR 11,000 crores. Our reported revenue, as you know, is around INR 5,950 crores. Because we add asset-light business to our model, it's important to start articulating what the system-wide revenue or the enterprise level revenue is. The PAT of INR 1,000 crores and a free cash flow exceeding INR 1,000 crores also. Very importantly, each of the quarters were the best quarters in history.
The Q1, the Q2, the Q3, which was absolute highlight, and also the Q4, exactly the same trend as is evident for last 3 decades. The only difference being Q1 and Q2 were also very profitable, and Q3 beat all possible estimates, followed by Q4, which was very, very good, following in the footsteps of Q3. Our industry-leading margins, you know, of 32.7% on consolidated level, because in standalone we come to almost 40%, it is almost doubling of margins where we are coming from historically, and this is here to stay as we have guided under our IHCL 2025 strategy. Important milestone was Taj is one of the exceptional luxury hotel brands in the world.
It's 100 hotels in operation or in development, where 5 years ago we had 31 hotels in operation and another 7 or 8 in development, which shows this is a 2.5x growth despite 2 years of COVID in the backbone of the company, in the crown jewel of not just Indian Hotels, but of the nation. Last year, we signed 36 new contracts. Were added to our pipeline, and we opened 16 hotels. Despite opening of 16 hotels, we still stay at a pipeline of almost 73 hotels, which will open even if we stop signing anything going forward, which we are not going to do. Just as a as an example that we have a very robust pipeline.
We have the industry-leading pipeline on the Indian subcontinent, and we expect to open more hotels than 16, and I will come to that when we go to the outlook part of it. I think also we started making small moves on the international expansion again, because our focus for the last five years was India. Our 250th hotel was in Riyadh, and recently we signed a twin of Taj and Vivanta in Dhaka, and we will be doing more on a asset-light basis on a operating lease or a management contract. We are not into acquisition of assets. That brings us to our portfolio of 263 hotels. With Taj already having hit 100 and Ginger getting close to 100, we've been able to create critical mass in our key brands.
It will be nice to watch how Vivanta, SeleQtions and amã evolve over the next years. Also the balanced portfolio guidance that we have given. If we include hotels in development, then we are already at 50/50. Within the next 18 months, we expect that in operation also to come to a 50/50, a balanced portfolio, right mix of assets everywhere we have owned and leased portfolio coupled with fee-driven business. This is important because the owned and leased portfolio is giving us the right operating leverage so that when we are witnessing an uptick in the cycle, these hotels add on the absolute amount, and the management fee business is helping us drive margins in a very strong way.
Our management fee business has almost doubled in the last year, so almost INR 400 crores of management fee, and this is only going up. Also in terms of unlocking the potential of most of our brands, besides Taj being rated as the world's strongest hotel brand for two years in a row, other brands are really picking up and are getting to where they rightfully belong within their competitive set. Also Vivanta and SeleQtions together are almost 78 hotels, and very soon we should get there also to a number of 100. We are very, very proud of the guidance that we have given under Ginger. You know, we embarked on this journey of reimagining Ginger four, five years ago. The management there did a great job.
In the last year, Ginger reported a revenue of INR 300 crores and an EBITDA of INR 120 crores, a margin of 39%. We expect this to increase. It increased by 13 percentage points. Coming from 26, it went to 39. The best here also is yet to come, and we eagerly await the opening of Ginger in Santacruz in Mumbai as of 1st of October. I think this brand has the potential, or a brand in this category, in this segment, has the potential to deliver a minimum of 50% margin. That's something we are very pleased about. So are we pleased also about our flight kitchen business, which we have a joint venture with SATS from Singapore.
For the first time in history, it did a margin of 20%, a revenue which exceeded INR 600 crores and an EBITDA of INR 127 crores. Since the opening of Qmin or since the launch of Qmin, it has done a GMV of INR 150 crores. Today, we have almost 34 outlets, of which 50% are in Ginger Hotels, which we very affectionately call the Qminization of Ginger, which means the all-day dining of all Ginger Hotels will slowly but steadily get rebranded into Qmin. amã is something which we will start working on together with Qmin to scale up in the next years to come.
A very important part that we would like to share with you that Taj Mahal Palace, our temple of hospitality, is 100% green, 68% through renewable energy from Tata Power, and the 32%, we had to buy the certificates for renewable energy, so that we became 100% green. Our 6 pillars of Paathya, the 100% waste elimination, 100% of the hotels to have organic waste management system, 100% recycling of water, all hotels to have EV charging system, and all hotels to have green meetings, which is being launched in June, and 50% of our energy from renewable, is the targets that we have given for 2030.
Very pleased to say that we are not only on target, we are ahead of our guidance and ahead of our target on ESG, which remains a key pillar, not just for Indian Hotels, but for the entire Tata Group companies. Also we were given awards on corporate governance, a Golden Peacock, the ICSI National Award for Governance also, as well as very recently the Risk Management Award for Business Model Adaptability from ICICI in collaboration with CNBC.
I think in all since the last five years from an aspiration 2022 of a turnaround of a business model in between derailed, but helping with a reset in 2020 and a further guidance of Ahvaan 2025, the company is very well positioned to achieve a 33% EBITDA margin over the business cycle by 25 with remaining a zero net debt company with a 300 hotel+ portfolio and a balanced portfolio built on the bedrock of the culture and values of both Tata Group as well as Taj, which stands for Trust, Awareness, and Joy, leveraging our enablers and our initiatives which keep going on reimagining our landscape, reengineering our margins, restructuring our portfolio, and the journey of most iconic and most profitable hospitality company continues. With that, I'd like to get to the outlook.
I think this is what has happened. We said in the short term, this is what we'll do. We got derailed. Where do we see the sector today? I think very important to note is one key factor which is helping the sector as well as Indian Hotels is that demand is growing faster than supply. While a lot of people want to talk about pent-up demand, I would say pent-up demand is like three months, six months, nine months. The reality is that all, although just domestic as foreign tourist arrival is not yet formed, the domestic demand has been strong enough, and is outpacing supply because not many hotels were built in the last three years. That imbalance in demand and supply will continue, which will help drive occupancies as well as the rates in the sector.
Given that we are present in 31 of the states and union territory of India, I think we are very well positioned to capture the benefits of that demand. It's also based on all the guidance given by various companies, whether it's HVS or Horwath India, annual report or Hotelivate, that the demand in, especially in India, where 87% of our portfolio and revenues come from, is strong, is going to stay robust, and it is going to get boosted by three or four key factors. Supply is one part of it, but the G20 this year till, you know, October and expected to peak in September, October, is going to aid the need for the rooms and food and beverage.
Number two is the Cricket World Cup. Number three is that the sector, tourism sector, expects that the foreign tourist arrivals as of October will go back to the pre-COVID level, which was at only 60% for last year. I think the outlook remains very positive. What can we expect from Indian Hotels with this outlook? We'll continue our pace of signing. We will keep adding hotels where we think we can create new destinations in the spirit of what Tata Group has done, what the oldest operating company, which we are, of Tata Group, has done consistently over a century. We are also pleased to say that we'll be opening a minimum of 20 hotels this year. Last year, we opened 16. This year we will open 20.
We will cross the target of 200 hotels in operation globally and get very close to having 200 hotels in operation in India. If we were to say South Asia, we will definitely achieve that also this year. That's on the growth part of it. In terms of new businesses which are very close to our heart, we did very well on incremental incremental cash flows and in incremental profitability. We did not really spend any money on growing amã or Qmin. I think this year we will use some of our free cash flow to really scale up these businesses because of the margins that they drive. At the same time, also the other businesses that we've been driving on, like The Chambers, we will be adding on that. The Chambers in Bengaluru at Taj West End will open this year.
We have applied for permissions for doing Chambers in New York. Really making Chambers also a global brand. Some of our food and beverage brands, you know, food and beverage is very strong in South Asia and Southeast Asia, and we are very optimistic about growing our presence, not just with Qmin as a QSR, but some of our iconic brands. I'm very pleased to announce that in the next week we are launching House of Ming at the Taj in London and a Bombay Brasserie at the Taj in Campton Place in San Francisco. We are hoping to take Bombay Brasserie as a brand to other parts of the world where we have the rights and we have been able to register the brand.
All in all, I think, in all businesses, not just the rooms business, but food and beverage business, which is aided very strongly this year by G20, the events, the conferences that are happening in India, a very strong, robust wedding business, scaling up new businesses, opening hotels continuously on management contracts or operating leases. Slowly, you know, but steadily starting to build on our international portfolio just with the Taj brand.
I think Indian Hotels is well positioned and also, to give this guidance that this year what we have seen and, today being, you know, like almost four weeks into the new year, the trend that we are seeing in terms of business that has happened, also the business on the books, we are very much in line and ahead of April of last year and expect the same thing in May. Albeit I have to say that the visibility of long-term bookings still remains very short. It's very difficult to make predictions about what will happen in July, August, September. The trend that what we are witnessing today is extremely positive.
The growth of the GDP in India, the growth of buoyancy in business, the need to do business, airlines, travel, air, you know, all the planes are full, the seats are full. Especially on the key sectors, Delhi, Mumbai, Delhi, Bengaluru or Chennai, all the key metros, and also the upcoming new airports, we feel that the travel remains very strong, both on business and on leisure. One of the few trends that we can highlight here is bleisure. Whether it is business with leisure or leisure with business, this has become a prominent trend since COVID. We are seeing no change on that one, on that front. Also, when it comes to spending money, I think, it's not revenge.
It's not like that what they call the Kal Ho Naa Ho factor. That's not there. The main thing is that people are still saving, but they are willing to spend a bit more than they were spending in a pre-COVID time, which is also assisting not only in our room demand, but especially in our food and beverage demand and in the restaurants. I think that's what I wanted to say about the year gone by and the outlook that is out there. We will continue on our journey of balancing the portfolio, not investing into single assets, except for very key strategic investments like the Ginger in Santacruz or our combo development Vivanta and Ginger in Ekta Nagar, which is Kevadia, or where the Statue of Unity is, totaling 275 rooms.
There we also get, we are eligible to get certain subsidies, making the investments very feasible. I think, the outlook remains strong, and we are at the beginning of an upcycle, which has witnessed a few quarters. We feel that IHCL is very well positioned to take benefit of this upcycle. Over to you, Giri.
No. Thank you, Puneet. I think Puneet has summarized it. W e have had a great year in terms of the overall business. As we explained, the outlook is strong. I think the core thing that we need to remember is that the story of hospitality is a story of penetration actually, which means as airports come up, as the growth is happening in cities beyond the key cities actually, it is really a story of penetration which will be multiyear. That's really the story. We will talk about this more, not just on this call, but we also have announced a Capital Markets Day on the 11th of May, 2023, and we will talk about this more. I think for now I'll open it up for questions actually.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The first question is from the line of Binay Singh from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good morning to you. Congratulations for a very good set of numbers. I have two questions, one on Ginger and the second one on our US business. Starting on Ginger, we have seen good performance. Could you talk a little bit about the roadmap to 50% EBITDA margin? Is this coming across from like the two, three key factors that will take us from around 39% that we are at today to around 50%? The second question on the US side, there also could you talk a little bit about what's happening over there? How did the March quarter go? When do you see that business breaking even? Thanks.
Binay, thank you. Ginger is something which we are very focused on. I think it's an ideal brand for a heterogeneous landscape of India, and it is the fastest growing brand in terms of number of hotels, not in number of rooms, because a lot of Ginger hotels can be 60, 80, 90 rooms. Except for the one which we're doing in Santa Cruz is 371 rooms because it's in Mumbai. A similar large size development will also be happening at the Bengaluru airport. Just to give you a flavor that Ginger reported revenue is around INR 300 crores. A hotel like Santa Cruz, which we own, has the potential on stabilized figure of at least INR 100 crores in revenue with 371 rooms.
I think that is what makes us believe that Ginger landscape will continue to evolve very rapidly. This is not something which is going to happen in 3 years or 4 years from now. It's already delayed by 6 to 8 months because of COVID. So it should have normally opened, but now we are opening it hopefully on the 1st of October this year. Similarly, many other Ginger branded hotels will drive the growth and this business model, and especially what we call under the lean luxe, because the new Gingers are all lean luxe, and all the lean luxe hotels are operating north of 50%. We have some old portfolio which we have to renovate, reposition, or get out of those contracts.
Like a few of the contracts we did not renew, which we had when we started the Ginger brand, like the Lean Luxury one. We have given those up because they are not good for the brand today, where we have reimagined the group. We expect Ginger over the next 3 years to grow north of 50% in margin, as I said in my opening remarks. On the U.S. side, we have renovated, basically it's New York, San Francisco, was profitable pre-COVID, it's going to get there as the market begins to evolve. On the New York, we have done very well in curtailing our losses, and they've reduced to a significant level. Besides that, we have reduced the cost of lease. We have renegotiated our agreement on the The Pierre.
We have completely revamped the banquet hall there, which is one of the largest halls in that marketplace, in that micro-marketplace, around Central Park. It's just getting to the finishing phase. We are positive about New York. You did not ask this, but I'll say this. On London, with all the changes that we have done, including now the opening of the Chinese, besides Quilon, which we have had there as a Michelin-starred restaurant, also we opened The Chambers in London. A lot of investment in our key marquee assets is also helping drive performance. Of course, U.K. and U.S. are not at the pre-COVID level. They're still operating at 92%.
We expect in the next few months for them to either get to 19, 20 level or definitely even exceed the 19, 20 level. That's a kind of upside we're also waiting for.
Okay. Thank you, for that response. Just one question. You claim the business will generate another year of very strong free cash flow. Anything that you will do differently, in the coming two, three years from, you know, from what you've done in the last two, three years? If you could also share the CapEx number that, we expect for next year. Thanks.
Our CapEx is always around. There is an operational CapEx, and there is, you know, the CapEx in the new construction and building other businesses. Our CapEx figure is always around 5%-6% of our reported revenue. Nothing is going to change on that. There will be certain situations where we invest, and in the interim, over the next 18-20 months, we kind of do a sale and manage back with a long-term management contract. That is something which we'll guide on during our Capital Markets Day. On the CapEx side, that is what has helped us to get where we are today. As an example, 24 of our Taj branded hotels were upgraded.
If I look at total number of hotels upgraded, including Ginger in the lean months, we've upgraded more than 40 hotels. That is also driving the performance. It's not just pent-up demand and a imbalance in demand and supply. It's hotels which needed renovation and were downgraded to Vivanta have been upgraded back to Taj, and that is what has also made Taj a 100 hotel portfolio. I think CapEx is a key, but intelligent use of CapEx is the key to driving margin and creating competitive advantage over the other brands and the competition in the mid and long term.
It's no. Thank you. I look forward to the Capital Markets Day . Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Achal Kumar from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Hi. Morning, everyone. Congratulations on such a strong set of results. By the way, Puneet, I was in London for a couple of months, and I saw your hotel. It's amazing. Chambers in London hotel was really amazing. I really liked it. It's too good. Anyway, moving to the questions. Sorry, I have four questions, if I may. First of all, I just want to understand, so the government has recently announced that they want to make Delhi as an international hub. Do you have any plans to align your growth in that part of India, Delhi, Rajasthan, Agra? Have you thought about it?
Do you have any plans to grow aggressively there, in case government is successfully able to make Delhi as an international hub? That is my first question. Secondly, I'm referring to slide 38, which is a very nice slide. You mentioned about the EBITDA margin expansions from the existing hotels and from the new hotels. Just want to understand, you know, how long would it take for the new hotels, or you can say the middle block, to move to the left side of the block? I mean, you know, what is the gestation period when the new hotels could actually generate the similar kind of EBITDA margin as good as for your existing hotels? That is my second question.
Third thing on the SATS. So, you reported a very strong growth in SATS. I mean, what was the driver of that growth? Now what next? Where do you think the future growth could come from? I mean, do you have any, I mean, any plans, anything in place which can sort of generate the similar kind of growth going ahead? Or, or is it a kind of ceiling now that, okay, fine, we reach here, and then this is the ceiling?Finally, probably, if you could, if you could give us a bit more color that you have already reported more than 34% margins, EBITDA margin in Q4. Of course, you know, as you rightly said, the industry dynamics are very strong, demand supply is very strong.
You know, looking at ARR and everything is going perfectly on your way. What actually, I mean, do you think the margins could decline and then come back to your long-term target of 33%? How do you see that? If that's not the case, I mean, how, or do you think it's now rather easy to achieve your EBITDA margin for FY 2026, which you have now, which you're targeting in FY 2026, in the next year itself? I mean, if you could give us a bit more color on that. Thank you so much.
Achal, thank you. A lot of questions, but let me first start on a lighter note. What you said on slide number 38 in the middle, how it could move to the left. There is, from a guidance perspective, there is a mistake on that slide. The mistake is that the numbers are right, but it is not showing the return on equity or return on investment. There has been no investment in a Qmin or amã. T his is really a clever use of the brands that we had by reimagining and repositioning them, but we have not invested money.
Let's say, on the left side, if we say we have invested a lot of money into our entry into London and U.S. and Taj Lands End and all other places, there is no investment that has gone into Qmin or amã or QHR or Chambers, et cetera. It's just reusing the same space by renovating it at a normal CapEx. A lot of what you see on the left side, let's say a Chambers in Taj Mansingh in Delhi, is driving a lot of revenue. The Chambers in the middle that you see is only the fee from new members. Chambers in Mansingh that the revenue it is driving is on the left of the chart. The left of the chart has investment, the middle of the chart has hardly any investment except for asset management perspective.
That's one. Second is your question on growth, Delhi becoming hub. Of course, Delhi is the capital of India. The state capital is Delhi or the national capital is Delhi, and the commercial capital is Mumbai. IHCL can never have enough hotels in these two metros. We have just signed two days ago, we have not yet announced another hotel in the Delhi NCR, Vivanta. We are very well positioned to add more Taj properties. What we will not do in Delhi is do a Taj that might dilute the positioning of Mansingh or Taj Palace, because we are the only brand which is present with two such properties, plus a Connaught and an Ambassador under SeleQtions in Lutyens' Delhi. Connaught just got added, we are not going to stop here. This will keep getting added.
You said Jaipur. Jaipur we have just added Taj Amer with the largest banquet hall that we'll have in our Taj system. Despite having Rambagh and Rambagh Palace and Jai Mahal Palace and Devi Ratn, and all the hotels. Our strategy in these key markets in India is to own them. We will be the largest players in all these markets in number of hotels, not necessarily maybe in number of rooms, because we are not in the business of taking rooms to a bank account. We want to cover the micro markets and the macro markets within these metros to the extent possible. If we look at, let's say, Mumbai, we will be opening very soon this year in Vikhroli a project. We opened a Vivanta in Navi Mumbai.
We have the Taj Lands End, we have the Taj Mahal Palace, we have the Taj Santacruz, we have the President. We have the Ginger in Andheri Kurla. We have the Ginger in Mahakali. We have a Ginger in Goregaon. We'll be opening a Ginger in Santacruz. The journey will not stop here because these are very important markets. The commercial capital of the country and the national capital will keep seeing more and more growth. That was the entire purpose of creating comprehensive brand management and focusing not just on Taj but also on other brands, so we can get into the depth and the breadth of the market.
Given this thing on the growth as well as on the other question that you said in the middle of the segment, it will also keep moving towards left as it matures. You know, it takes time to mature. We'll keep nurturing our traditional businesses and keep growing them through market share, through clever asset management. The new businesses, we will keep scaling them up, so once they become mature, we start adding further new businesses. That is the strategy which we have communicated, which we'll have also in more depth and detail during Capital Markets Day.
When it comes to margins, you know, margins is a combination, and I'll let Giri to add to that, is the operating leverage on the left side, what you see on slide 38, and on the middle, also the management fee business, the asset life model. If you look at like, let's say, one parameter or one variable, corporate overhead. Our corporate overhead from 8% of total revenue has gone to 5.8%. There's no reason this will go up again despite increase in salaries, despite, you know, increase in number of people, because we are becoming more and more efficient. I think, margins, we will definitely remain within the guidance that we have given of 33%. Q3 and Q4 will have higher margins. Q1 and Q2 will have lower margins.
The blend of it should always keep us in line with 33 or ahead of 33. Giri?
No, just building on it see the heart of our strategy is the diversification on the top line actually. I think while other hotel chains just have the rooms and food and beverage, which is where analysts sort of start focusing in terms of RevPAR and all of that, I think there I would sort of say that we have always differentiated and done better than the market in terms of RevPAR across cities actually. Irrespective of the market, we will do better. That's number one. Number two, the asset light growth, which is what we spoke about on Ginger, The Chambers, Qmin, amã, the management fees, I think they will continue to be very, very strong actually. This diversification of top line is really the core to our strategy, coupled with the productivity on expenditure actually.
Hence And, and any margin, that 33% margin that we talk about is really very healthy actually. I think, I think, we will as Puneet just said, we will be within the guidance of 33%, and we will continue to progress the our strategy and execution to ensure that we have a healthy growth in top line, absolute EBITDA growth, and the PAT growth actually. That's the way we look at our business.
Sorry, last question on TajSATS. If you could please give us a bit color on TajSATS.
Should I do that, Puneet?
Yes, yes, please.
TajATS I think has done extremely well, in terms of, one, the opportunity which is there in the Indian ecosystem. With the growth in passenger traffic and the doubling of airports which is happening, there is a huge opportunity in terms of how the growth in flight kitchens is happening. That's one. Two is the whole synergy with the Tata Group in terms of Air India, AirAsia, and Vistara. Therefore, these are opportunities which will come there. We will continue to be the beneficiary actually. The third one is that the growing Indian business also means that there are a lot of international flights are also going up, and we continue to take an increasing share of the international business as well, which is adding to profitability actually.
We will continue to grow in terms of opening up kitchens in new areas like Amritsar, which was shut about five years ago. We reopened this year actually, and it is already profitable actually. Third is productivity has gone up significantly actually. If you take Delhi kitchen as an example, between the pre-pandemic period and now, we improved productivity by more than 50% actually. I think productivity of kitchens is also going up. Finally, I would sort of say is that business model changes are coming, where our partner Taj is setting up a central kitchen in Bangalore, where I think the business model will change towards producing food in bulk and transporting to the other kitchens that we have.
What that means is that going forward in about two, three years' time, we will not need the big kitchens in Bombay and Delhi in terms of sizes. They will receive the food from the central kitchen, and they will become the repackaging kitchens, which means that should also help in terms of driving costs down actually. I think there are a number of factors at play which ensures that the trajectory of TajSATS is going to be very significantly high actually.
Perfect. Thank you. Thank you, Giri. Thank you, Puneet.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sumant Kumar from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Good morning. My question for U.S., U.K. business, we have seen in FY23 occupancy is still lower, okay? The recovery is lower. Can you talk about going forward, can we expect the occupancy what we have seen in FY20, say for U.S. 75%, and FY23 we have 59% only, and U.K. 79% in FY20, and we have 71% in FY23? Can we reach the FY20 level occupancy for these two geographies?
Sumant, we will reach here and also Cape Town we will do better. We can already say that April for London has been a very strong month, better than any April that we have seen before. I think also because of the coronation of, you know, the royalty, what is happening, there is a lot of activity in London. Slowly, you know, markets are usually efficient, and they go down, but they at least come back to the level they were. I do expect U.S. to do much better and also for London to do much better because of the investments we have made and are making in these properties, in their repositioning. You know, 59% occupancy for the largest lodging market in the world is a very low level.
These markets are used to operating at 75+. That's why I also feel the best is yet to come as these hotels with the income that they have in dollars and pounds multiplies manifold in Indian rupees when we report. When they are not doing well, like they have not done as well in last year, they tend to understate what our normal result would have been. In a way, it would be fair to say that that is a hidden potential for us. Especially also even Cape Town, albeit small, but we took over 100% ownership of Cape Town at the peak of COVID. You know the third wave, the Omicron started in South Africa.
The first six months of last financial year were more or less like a washout for Cape Town. All these hotels should do much better in this quarter and the next quarters to come.
Just building on it, Sumant, I think that if you look at US, while you highlighted the occupancy of 59%, I think remember that 2022, 2023 was the year which is the first year after the COVID, therefore we were more cautious also, we drove a rate-driven strategy. ARR did grow up by 25%. Because the more you open up the hotel, the costs will have gone up. We wanted to drive the rate strategy. Now I think, now I think with the COVID behind us, I think what is happening now is that we will drive the occupancy as well. Bear in mind that the banquet did not fully kick in in the previous year. The banquet will start kicking in fully this year.
A combination of driving occupancy, banquet improvement, all of these should help, is what I would say, actually.
Talking about Rajasthan, FY 20 occupancy was 52% and FY 23, 51%. Do you think this is a normal occupancy for Rajasthan market?
I think, what we have not seen is really the benefit of the international passenger, as you know. I think Rajasthan with the palaces truly depend upon the international passengers, and I think that has not come in. That going up should certainly help in terms of driving the occupancies, in Rajasthan, actually.
Okay. The last question, the Kolkata, we have seen a significant improvement in occupancy, but rate increase is minimal compared to other market. Any specific reason for that?
Sumant, every market will not move at the same speed and pace or. You know, there are different issues in different markets. If we look at places around Kolkata, like Chia Kutir we opened in Kurseong, Darjeeling area, it did very well because that was a great place to go to, and it got very well established. Similarly, we'll be opening this year in Gangtok, the Taj in Guras Kutir . There are different markets and different. The beauty is how hedged is your portfolio. I think Indian Hotels can not only by different brands, but by being present in 125 + locations, in being all the metros, but also in the Tier 1, Tier 2 cities. Even more importantly, having a healthy mix of resorts.
t he number of resorts we have has really helped us in the last few years, and we want to maintain that strategy. Sometimes, let's say Odisha, which hosted the World Cup Hockey, was going up. Maybe if there is no World Cup Hockey, it will for six or eight weeks, the revenue start going down. There are those one-off events, there are elections, there are, you know, so many things that keep happening in a marketplace. All in all, most of the metros are great. The air show in Bengaluru, it does not happen every year. One year it takes it up, the next year it brings it down. Generally speaking, India remains a very strong market because the demand is stronger than the new supply that is coming in.
Okay. Thank you, so much sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Jefferies India. Please go ahead.
Hello. Good morning, sir. Congratulations. My first question is on on the supply addition. Based on pipeline data which you have given, our room count for supply for Indian Hotels will be around 10% CAGR over next 4 years. How should we understand this in context of mix in the supply growth for industry? We hear that some of the larger industry players also appear to be adding at good pace. Is it like top 10 players are adding at higher than the supply and smaller players are unable to add pipeline?
Prateek, I could not understand because the calls kept dropping. Did you understand? Would you like to take that?
I think fundamentally the question is that we are adding supply 10% every year. In the context of industry supply growing at less than 10%, what his question is that are the bigger players taking a bigger share? He wanted some color in terms of our supply growth versus industry supply growth for you actually, that's all.
We said that we have an industry-leading pipeline, there was a time when others used to say they are larger, they are larger. Those tones are gone because nobody is signing more hotels or opening. Even the signing is not important. It's opening that is the key. When we said we are opening, we opened 16 hotels last year and we'll be opening anything north of 20 hotels this year. That gives a good flavor of what is about to come and what is about to change. We see no reason about the openings slowing down because 73 hotels in various stages of development to open over the next 3 years is a very big number. This does not include any possible conversions which we will get. That means existing hotels which get reflagged or rebranded.
I think we are in a very good space and that is the dominance that was needed and also a proof that why going multi-brand instead of there was a talk 5, 6 years ago we should be only doing Taj. Why that multi-brand strategy in a heterogeneous landscape is a big boost to us. Also a big boost to the hospitality landscape in India because, you know, we are the largest hospitality ecosystem, so we have to take that leadership position, the ownership, and drive these businesses forward.
You see, Prateek, the growth, the momentum is only going up. Historically, we were opening around 2,000 rooms per year, but now in 2023, 2024, we expect 2,300+ rooms and nearly 3,000 rooms in 2024, 2025. Therefore, this momentum of opening room openings will definitely go up actually.
Thank you. My second question is on ARR. On a timeline basis or overall Indian operation basis, I mean, we ended the year on a very high base and multiple round of price hikes or ARR hikes that happened during the year, probably during the October and February. Like because of very strong exist, like from modeling perspective, is it like okay to assume like high single digit kind of ARR growth for next year or maybe low double digits?
As long as we have a good base of demand which we have today, there is no reason why ARR should not keep growing. ARRs have not grown in the last 10 years. They've only grown in the last year. If we took 2012 as a base, the ARR and take that 2011, 2012 as a financial year as 100, then there was a continuous decline in the ARR because of the imbalance in supply and demand. This has become healthy in last year, and the expectation is based on a report of, I think, HVS ANAROCK, that that should reach at the level of 125 versus 2011, 2012 as a base.
If, if the market reaches 125, we are very confident of doing 130 or 135 with 11, 12 as a base because of the power of our brands, as some of your colleagues have written also about it. Also very important is our loyalty driven revenue is increasing very much. The Tata Neu is beginning to settle down and establish and is growing. Tata Neu, and we are the founding member of Tata Neu, is beginning to assist us. Getting base business through our normal channels, through airline crew, through contracted business, through Tata Neu business gives us the base so that we can indulge in better comprehensive revenue management to yield much better rate and occupancy. We are very optimistic on that front.
Just one build on it, Prateek, is that if you look what's happening is that with the rise in rates, which has happened, the rates are now settling down at a higher level, actually, even in the month of April. If you see, if you see the rates in Q1, we expect it to be better than what was happening last year in terms of Q1, because the rates have settled down actually. As you go through the year, if you see what happened last year, the rates kept going up. The good news is that as we go towards the second half of the year, we have the G20 in September, we have the Cricket World Cup, the momentum in terms of weddings and all of those should actually help. There is foreign travelers coming back.
I think all of those should help actually. We will continue to work on those factors. The other point what we mentioned is that, you know, again, I reemphasize the point that our top line diversification is a big thing. And that will continue to play a very big role in terms of driving the profitability of the top line actually. As I repeat again, the story of Indian hospitality is a story of penetration actually. I think, you know, people tend to look at surrogates like airlines actually.
Hello?
Sure.
Sorry for the inconvenience. Line for Giri sir has been disconnected. We will just reconnect them.
Okay.
I can take further questions.
My third question was on Tata Neu only, you mentioned. Where are we in terms of customer base on Tata Neu and like, and at enterprise level, and I think like a steep marketing activity around Tata Neu and during IPL this year, how do we see that overall playing out for us?
You know, we are very pleased that this is coming as a big boost to our business. On our own, I doubt if we would have been able to develop a loyalty program with that kind of, you know, capital that is needed and the kind of following it can get. With Croma, with BigBasket, with, you know, Titan now coming on board, there's so many other brands that I expect Tata Neu to become a very strong player in the next, you know, 12-18 months. The stronger Tata Neu gets, the bigger will be the benefit including to Indian Hotels. Especially we have just now onboarded also Ginger with the technical upgrade that was needed to be linked to Tata Neu. This is only like six weeks ago.
I think these kind of businesses will benefit a lot. Qmin should benefit a lot from Tata Neu. amã will benefit a lot. A lot of this earning and burning in various areas will happen. Of course, the first, the budget businesses will benefit more and the luxury becomes more aspirational, so that will take some time. We are very, very pleased. Our loyalty base has doubled in the last 13 months. 7th of April last year was when Tata Neu was launched. It's not even 13 months. So it's a little less than 13 months. Yes, there were some startup issues, which is normal when you try to combine so many companies and businesses. We are very, very pleased and very optimistic about the outlook, about the contribution that Tata Neu is going to make.
We work very closely with the Tata Digital team in making things happen and making promotions happen, in making campaigns happen, marketing campaigns, and how to keep improving this platform because it's a big win-win for all of us.
Sorry, I got cut off. I don't know what happened. I've just rejoined. Thank you.
Yes. Giri, I answered in between. There was a question on Tata Neu.
We have had, I'd say double, our loyalty based active members in just less than 13 months. Our loyalty led revenue is almost 20% of the enterprise level revenue, not the reported but the system-wide on the enterprise level revenue. We remain very optimistic and very pleased with the way Tata Neu is evolving and assisting us in our business.
Thank you, sir. These are the questions I wanted to ask.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Nihal Jham from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Thank you so much. Yes, good morning, Mr. Chhatwal and Mr. Giri, and congratulations on the strong performance. My first question was that given there has been such a strong source of domestic travel and international is still recovering, is there a case of seasonality in the industry starts getting a little more normalized? Or do you expect that as international travel comes back that the Q3 and Q4 quarter will still remain the biggest one, so significantly versus the first half of the year?
Would you just take a minute and just a bit loud, in terms of the audio here. Will you take that question and I will, I'll respond on that shortly.
Sure. Nihal, I think, with Cricket World Cup, with the peak of G20, which will happen in September, October, and very strong robust demand on weddings, that is the only business that is getting booked in advance, of so much, you know, with so much of lead time. There is no reason that makes us feel today that Q3 and Q4 should not be as strong as they have been in the previous financial year. I actually feel, it will be even stronger because of these one-off events that are happening.
We as a sector on the various platforms that I sit on, whether Hotel Association or CII, etc., which I chair, the general consensus is that, based on the queries that most of the travel agents are getting is that the foreign tourist arrival is expected to go back to 1920 Level as of October.
Got that. It is also in relation to given that journey from Q4 - Q1, there is a certain % drop that we see. Would it be the case that that wouldn't play out in the coming years as domestic tourism is strong and travel is strong and maybe that kind of jump back doesn't happen because the FTAs in Q4 were not as much. That demand going away is not going to be as much of an impact as what it has been historically.
Y ou're right, Nihal. You actually, I don't know if it's a statement or a question, but whatever it is, I agree with what you said.
Sure. The second one was that on the new initiatives, you didn't mention their asset light, but you mentioned that some part of the free cash flow will be used towards them. I'm assuming it will be minimal spend, or there is something more on a larger scale that.
Minimal spend. We are not looking into some big investments, but of course these businesses have been done through just incremental cost and incremental revenue model. Let's say if you want to build 10, 20 amã, where each amã costs INR 5 crores, it's not a big amount, it's a good investment. In 5 years, you know, or 7 years, the cost of each of those villas will double. We don't have to buy land. We are sitting on a lot of land banks. As an example, in Taj Exotica in Goa, we have the ability to build more. There are so many other places where we have, you know, FSI available and we can build. That we would have to do on our own so that we don't dilute.
We can also enter into some kind of development agreements with developers, builders in a sale and leaseback model. Up till now, our model has been purely fee-based model, and we have not added any kind of, you know, these kind of operating lease or ownership model on any of this. It's all driven by that, and that's why it drives 50% + margins on these businesses. If we want to scale it up, we'll have to make some, you know, sliver, maybe is the right word, sliver investments into some of these businesses in key strategic locations and also help on our asset management because we have the assets, we have the land banks, we don't have to go and acquire the land.
Got that. Just a final question from my side was that we see now you are getting aggressive again on the international expansion side with Dhaka expansion, and I'm guessing all that is on management contract side. Just as an initiative going forward, as you look at other Southeast Asian cities, and I'm guessing multiple other parts of the world, this will be mainly via MPC, right?
Operating leases or management contracts, there is no. We are not going to enter into single asset acquisitions as we speak. Unless there is 1 big exception for some reason that we don't know of today. It's like the black swan event on the negative side. On the positive side, something comes up which makes so much sense to buy, then we will buy it, right? Those are one-offs. As a normal business plan strategy, which we'll communicate more in the Capital Markets Day , we have no plan to acquire assets.
Wonderful. That's what I had, and see you on the Capital Markets Day . Thank you so much.
Thank you, Nihal. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vikas Ahuja from Antique Stock Broking. Please go ahead.
Hi, Vikas.
Hi, good morning. Congratulations on the strong domestic performance and execution. Just one clarification on what the question Nihal asked, on seasonality. From Q4 to Q1, we normally see a drop. What I could make out, you know, from your statement that the operating drivers, the FR we have achieved in Q4, is it a possibility that we might achieve something similar in Q1 as well? You know, when we talk about the second half, there are enough levers like World Cup is there to boost it, to take it to another high levels. Is my understanding correct, or I misinterpreted it?
I think, if I take this question, Vikas, I think what's happening is that the Q1 momentum as compared to Q1 of last year is very strong actually, based on whatever we have seen in the month of April and May. That continues to be very strong. We will show some good growth in relation to that. Therefore I think Q1 is going to be pretty strong. That's number one. Q2 visibility at this point of time is weak. As we go into the second half of the year, that visibility is beginning to pick up. The G20 and the World Cup, as I said, will pick up. The foreign travelers coming in will happen actually. Therefore, if I look at this year, I think we should have a good year, is what I would say.
Okay. That statement was in terms of why and all this. Secondly, you know, when we talk about the U.S. business, I know you have answered that in detail, but the drop we have seen this quarter, especially on sequential, is it largely on seasonality or some part of macro also played out?
I think typically the Q4 is actually a weakest quarter. For the U.S. in particular actually. Q4 is usually the weakest quarter. Winter, no? It's the winter. Therefore I think banquets don't happen and the occupancies don't happen. Therefore to that extent I think seasonality played a very big role actually. I think other than that I think this year if you look at it in terms of what I answered earlier, in terms of improving occupancies, driving the banquet businesses should all help us to grow the U.S. business. If you look at the cash loss position in U.S., if you look at the exceptional statement and the standalone, you will notice that the pre-pandemic losses were about INR 69 crore and that came down to about INR 22 crore.
I think what we are looking at this year is to make sure that we will be cash breakeven on an operating basis. Bear in mind in 2022, 2023 the U.S. were EBITDA positive actually. Hence I think that the U.S. should do much better this year than the previous year actually. The Chambers, as Puneet also said, The Chambers is coming up. There are a number of things that we're doing, which will ensure that the U.S. does much better this year than last year.
Sure. Just to clarify, you said that the drop sequentially was all because of seasonality and there was nothing, you know, macro led or cancellations or the like?
T hat is correct. Q4 historically is a seasonality factor because of the weather.
Yes. That I understand. Finally one murky thing. In terms of the corporate overheads, we have seen a 300 basis point reduction since pre-COVID. Do you think there is more room there or largely we are done, especially on that front? Thanks a lot. I'm just done. That's it.
I think the way to look at corporate overheads is that now the corporate is now managing a network which is significantly higher than what it was in the pre-COVID period, actually. Therefore, whilst an absolute cost may go up, and rightly so because of, because, you know, of investments in, say, IT or investment in marketing. From a productivity perspective, that 5.8% that we talked about is the kind of numbers that we're looking at. Productivity will remain at around 5.8% of topline. Some absolute costs may go up because of the growth in network, which is operating, actually.
Sure, sir. Thanks a lot, and best of luck for the next quarter.
Thanks, Vikas. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Karan Khanna from Ambit Capital. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity, and congrats on another good quarter. My first question, you know, just talking about your international expansion. Most of your recent management contracts have been centered around the Asian cities. Puneet, given your background, are there any plans to enter the European market also? Second, as a follow-up, how are the contracts in the international management contract structure versus the domestic market because here you're competing with some of the larger global hotel chains?
Yeah. No, Giri here. I will take this question. Our international contracts are oriented towards two things. Number one, the areas where there is an Indian diaspora. That's where Middle East has been very strong actually. Dhaka also plays to that because it's part of the subcontinent. In the future, we do look at opportunities in, say, Southeast Asia. U.K., for instance, I think we can take more hotels beyond London. For instance, in Edinburgh or in Birmingham or Glasgow, I think possibilities are there. As far as Europe is concerned, there are interesting possibilities which come because of the Air India and Vistara flights which go there actually. You know, for instance, the TCS at TCS has got significant operations. Tata Steel has got significant operations.
There are certain cities, for instance, where a combination of Tata Group presence as well as the flights of Air India and Vistara are going to create opportunities for, say, 150 hotels, where the base occupancies can come from this business itself actually. That we continue to explore, Karan.
Sure. The second question in the last Capital Markets Day, Giri spoke about looking to make the corporate holding structure simpler. If there's any development over the last one year, on this front that you'd like to share.
No, nothing. No developments. I think this is an area which we continue to work on. As you know, we have complex partnership structures in different entities. We continue to engage in terms of with the partners in terms of possibilities. I think we will advise as soon as we kind of have an alignment with any of these partners. I think it's really what Oriental Hotels and Benares Hotels and TM. I think these are the three main entities where we need to work on. I think we will come back, guys. We'll come back, Karan, as and when we kind of have an understanding with any of these people. I think for the last 6 years that I've been there, I think we've all been talking actually. We'll see.
Sure. Lastly, just continuing from one of the previous participants, just talking about the Delhi micro market. You know, there are a bunch of new hotels that are opening up over the next 2 - 3 years. Are there any active discussions that you're having in terms of signing management contract in that market?
No, not yet. You know what, I think that's an area where we will continue to look actually. If there's a development, we'll advise. At this point of time, I would simply say that we are focused on where we are. As Puneet said, that those are cities, Delhi, Bombay are cities where we will continue to have significant opportunities, and we will continue to expand actually. We can't have enough in these markets actually.
Great. That's it from my side. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you, Karan.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Pallavi Deshpande from Sameeksha Capital. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Thank you. just wanted to know since you mentioned at the beginning this, demand, exceeding the supply. How long does this cycle run? Do we have 3-5 years more in this cycle, to run here, given that, you know, we are a cyclical business? The second question would be, any guidance on ROIC? Like 2 -3 years down.
Le t me answer both the questions. The first one is that if I look at the India macro, the India macro with the 6% + economic growth and also the growth kind of going beyond the key cities into the interiors, I think basically means that the country is in good shape. That's number one. Number two, within that, Consumption theme I'm really excited about. You will have short-term blips on consumption what people have spoken about, K-shaped recoveries and all of those actually. Nevertheless, if you look at the demographics and the long-term consumption trends, they are very intact actually. The younger people are spending. The baby boomer equivalent in India are also spending because they become empty nesters actually.
Longer term, if you see, one of the things that they speak about in the U.S. is that in the next few years, once the baby boomers pass, there'll be one big wealth transfer to the younger generation, and we will see that in India as well. I personally believe that the long-term trends are going to be extremely strong on consumption actually. Hence, I think, and therefore, I think, I come back again, I repeat, is that the story of hospitality comes back to the penetration actually, and hence very confident in terms of that. As far as ROIC is concerned, as you have seen, our growth is largely coming through, what do you say, the asset light growth.
In terms of capital allocation strategy, we've spoken about it in some of our meetings. Basically, there are three or four elements to our capital allocation strategy. Number one is that we do want to maintain a certain steady cash reserve for any eventuality like another COVID or GST or demonetization actually. That I think at this point of time we are saying will be about INR 750 crores. That's the first part. The second part on renovations is that we largely intend to make sure that renovations are in line with our depreciation actually. That is the second part of renovation, that also helps us in driving profitabilities because these renovations in existing properties help to drive asset management actually.
The third is the greenfield opportunities where we will either construct, as Puneet was saying, in terms of where we have land banks or the new projects that we have signed with Lakshadweep and Kevadiya and others actually. We are open to take project debt, as especially in the new era of EMG, we will probably take some sustainable debt. That is something that we are open with actually. This is third part actually. Fourth is really the dividend thing. While we have not yet announced a dividend policy linked to PAT, but we have seen that the dividend has jumped up to INR 1 a share.
The payout this year is approximately, I think 17% if I'm not mistaken, actually, in terms of the standalone PAT and about 15% of the consolidated PAT. I think the capital allocation policy will continue to do that. Hence the reason I'm mentioning this capital allocation policy is that this ensures that we use our cash well and therefore driving up ROC. Of course, the other question that Karan asked in terms of simplification, as and when those happen, those also will help to drive efficiencies on the balance sheet. That's the way I would kind of answer. I think ROACs are definitely improving and with sensible capital allocations this will continue to do well actually.
Okay. I understand on the consumption side. On the supply side, you know, we have seen a state of not in the 5-star, but more in the 4 and 3 maybe where Ginger is, the state of signing agreements by your competitors in terms of, you know, the, they're also going the asset-light manner and the industry seems to be heading towards that. Just on the supply side, do we have any concerns? Is the competitive intensity increasing?
No, no. I think, see, India is a very big market. With India being a very big market, I think it is not a winner take all market. I think what is good is that we are leaders. As Puneet pointed out, we have been leading in terms of signings and openings actually. I think in the three-star category, Ginger kind of category, that is we spoke about, the opportunities are even greater actually, in terms of supply. Because, you know, you don't need an outstanding location for a Ginger or that category of hotels like you need in Taj actually. You fundamentally need a sensible business location. The possibility of conversions are very much there.
What has happened, especially because of COVID, see I think if you are an unbranded standalone hotel, your ability to access marketing is very difficult actually. Therefore many of the smaller hotels are actually aligning themselves with one of the branded chains actually. The opportunities for conversion are much greater there. Hence I think we don't anticipate a challenge. Of course, while the supply shortfall is there, I think of course supply shortfall will never be a perennial factor. I think as the industry is doing well, that gives the motivation in terms of people to start putting capital and start kind of investing. That will also happen.
Right now, of course, the new capital investment in hotels is kind of still low because bank balance sheets, you know, banks are also sitting on debt with companies and some of the emergency credit line, ECLGS are running out this year. I think, eventually supply will come. Institutional capital-led supplies will happen and at the lower end we will see lot more conversions and we will continue to lead. India is a big country.
Great. Thank you so much, Sir.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Anushi Vakharia from BP Wealth Management. Please go ahead.
Hello. Thank you for the opportunity. I just wanted to understand the management contracts a little bit better. Like in your previous conference call you had mentioned about how amã hotels and resorts will have a 16% management fees or a 15% fees plus a 3% marketing cost. Can I just understand the overall portfolio level, like how does this work? I f you could clarify on that.
As we've always said, if you look at the typical management contracts, I think there are really three components. Which is really the base fee, the incentive fee and the reimbursement actually. Between the three components, I would say it's about 6%-7% actually in terms of the total. That is the pattern which continues actually. That's the pattern which continues. amã is a different business where I think, we have already marketing arrangements and these are small properties actually. We do charge 15% on management fees or another 3% in terms of marketing costs. That continues. There is no change in any of this at all actually. No change at all.
The 6%-7% fees that you have mentioned for all your properties like Taj and Ginger, whichever you open it to the management contract model. What is this fees based on exactly? I just want to understand the model a bit better.
In Ginger we do very, very few management contracts. We mostly do operating leases or fully fitted leases. You know, Ginger in a 100-room property has a top line of say between INR 7 crore and INR 10 crore as an example. W hen you do a management contract in Ginger what happens is that the fee is INR 40 lakh, INR 50 lakh. INR 40 lakh, INR 50 lakh is a small fee amount in the context of a small top line.
What we prefer to do is to take the whole P&L actually, which means, when we take a whole P&L of say INR 10 crores and even if we pay 20% in terms of say 20%-25% in terms of say the lease charges to the owners, the balance you still end up making significant money. It is not INR 50 lakhs that we will make. We'll probably make around INR 3 crores or so. That is really the model that we are adopting in Ginger. And I mean, I think that's what it is. And other places Taj and Vivanta we will take management contracts actually. In Ginger we don't take.
I mean except unless it's a bigger property like the one which is coming up in Bengaluru Airport. In Ginger, there's about I think 150 rooms +, if I'm not mistaken. There I think, we are doing I think it's 200 rooms there, if I'm not mistaken. I think there we are doing a management contract. Other than that, we don't do management contracts in Ginger actually.
Oh, okay. Thank you. That was it. Sorry.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rajiv from DM Capital Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hello. Am I on?
Yes, you are actually. Yes, you are.
On slide 37, you used to provide this fixed cost as a percent of revenue. Can you help me with that number? What is that for the full year?
Fixed cost as a percentage of revenue, I don't think I have it immediately, but maybe we can take it offline, and sort of talk about it. I think today we are more, s lide 37 you're talking about ? Just a minute. N o, 37 is the margin. 37 is the margin slide. Which one? Okay. If you look at this slide. See, the raw material cost is totally variable. The payroll cost is a fixed cost, huh? Is really a fixed cost. That absolute sum has gone up, but the productivity is being maintained.
Other operating costs have an element of both variable and fixed actually because, you know, see fundamentally what's happening, is that with the level of operations significantly going up, obviously absolute costs are going up. Within that, what we are trying to make sure is that the productivity is maintained. As we speak on the chart at the end, the staff-to-room ratios are also being kind of protected, without compromising on service quality actually. That's the way to look at it actually. If you need more color on fixed costs, maybe you can speak to Neha and Rupesh and the team subsequently, and they will be able to clarify actually.
Sure. Mr. Chhatwal actually mentioned about INR 100 crore, and in a stable state revenue of Ginger Santacruz. What are the F&B to let's say, room revenue ratio for that hotel, I mean, what are you targeting as compared to let's say, a regular Ginger?
Ginger will continue to be an accommodation only deal, but because it's a 371 room hotel, it will have 1 small banquet hall actually. Which means that I don't expect the INR 100 crore top line F&B to be more than around 20% or so, 20%-25%, as opposed to that typical 45%, 40%, 45% that we have. It'll largely be accommodation driven. Since it's going to be accommodation driven, the room profitability are very high actually. I think just 1 comment to the group. I think I will take 1 more question because I have to jump on a flight. I have to go to the airport and we can continue the conversation.
I think Rupesh, Neha are all available, so we can kind of reach out to us and we will kind of take questions separately. If I can just take one more question, please.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Nikhil Agarwal from VT Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, just have one question. Your operating expenses have increased quarter-on-quarter. Just wanted to understand, like why was that and like was it some one-off or do you see this to continue in the same going forward as well?
If you see the Q4 standalone number where the other expenses have gone up by INR 20 crores. Also look at the top line in standalone, it has gone up by INR 70 crores actually. Therefore it is being largely to the growth in revenue. I think in Q3 there was some reversal of INR 5 crores on one line, so there is a little bit of a one-off actually. Other than that, I think the increase is proportionate, has gone up because of operations and that one-off of INR 5 crores that which is reversed in the previous quarter.
Okay. Got it. Thank you so much.
Thank you. I think, I think, if it's okay with you all, I would like to thank you all and conclude this conversation. As Dilip mentioned and as we have outlined on this call, I think we are coming off an excellent year in terms of all round performance. As we look ahead, we believe that the macroeconomic conditions, the hospitality conditions in terms of demand, supply, a strong convention growth, I think all augurs well. We will continue to adopt a differentiated strategy, especially when it comes to diversification of top line and productivity and costs, to ensure that we will be better than the market. Our balance sheet strategy is also robust in terms of capital allocation. We look forward to this, what do you say? The future is confident.
I think INR 10,000 crore of enterprise revenue, INR 1,000 crore of PAT, INR 1,000 crore of free cash flow was what we kind of demonstrated in the year that just passed. I would just conclude by saying, expect more. Look forward to continuing the conversation. Thank you all for joining us this morning.
Thank you very much, sir. On behalf of Indian Hotels Company Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.
Thank you.