Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to The Indian Hotels Company Limited earnings conference call for Q2 FY 2023-24.
On the call, we have with us Mr. Puneet Chhatwal, Managing Director and CEO, IHCL, and Mr. Giridhar Sanjeevi, Executive Vice President and Chief Financial Officer, IHCL. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the call, please signal an operator by pressing star zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Puneet Chhatwal. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Chhatwal.
Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining our global conference call for Q2 2023-2024. We've outlined six key themes for the call today, and we'll walk you through each of these in succession. The first one is the India story. Let me begin with the Indian growth story, which continues to remain intact. India's per capita GDP is expected to more than double in the next 10 years, leading to a surge in disposable income, driving higher discretionary spends, which will directly benefit the travel and tourism sector. Moreover, we have recently heard from various sources in the government of the aspiration of a USD 7 trillion economy in 7 years , which is a kind of a possibility that has been talked about by various, as I said, dignitaries and, and journalists as well as, consulting houses.
I think the hospitality industry presents a significant potential for market penetration, with just 0.1 branded room inventory per 1,000 people, as against a global average of 2.2. With the current surge in demand and a slower growth in supply, the ongoing cycle is likely to continue in the near to midterm. According to Hotelivate report, in the next five years, hotel demand is expected to grow at a CAGR of 8%-10%, while the supply growth is projected to grow at just 5%-6% annually. The nature of the supply under development is also predominantly in the non-luxury segment, with close to three-fourths of the supply coming up in tier 2 and tier 3 cities. The robust growth in demand is on the back of a structural shift in consumers' behavioral mindset.
This, coupled with various other factors like government's push for infrastructure and short-term domestic triggers like the G20, like the ICC Cricket World Cup and MICE, are further boosting domestic demand. The second theme is IHCL continues to deliver on quarter after quarter as a record, and this Q2 is our best ever Q2. And we are very pleased to share that our record performance in Q2 makes it the sixth consecutive quarter of best ever performance. Our consolidated revenue grew by 18% year-on-year to INR 1,481 crore, and our EBITDA grew 26% year-on-year to INR 402 crore, yielding EBITDA margin of 27.2%.
Our bottom line grew by 37% to INR 167 crore, and we are happy to report that our consolidated PAT for the first half of this financial year stands at INR 389 crore, which surpassed the highest pre-COVID full year PAT of INR 370 crore in 2006-2007. On a standalone basis, IHCL has delivered a growth of 23% in revenues to INR 9 crore, with EBITDA of INR 330 crore, up 39% from last year. On standalone EBITDA margin, we reported 34.7% in Q2 2023-2024, which marks an expansion of 4.1 percentage points over last year. The third theme we have is asset management, which is driving the operating leverage.
You know, we, as management, have focused very strongly on asset management initiatives, as 50% of our portfolio is considered asset heavy. This is a great opportunity by, by developing and by executing on comprehensive asset management, we have been able to focus on enhancing the performance of our existing hotels through strategic interventions and continuous upgrade of our product. Just as a reminder, our strategy that we have outlined both under Aspiration 2022 as well as Ahvaan 2025, with the ultimate objective of being the most iconic and most profitable hospitality company from South Asia, it is important for us to keep focused on asset management initiatives. Our big machines are firing on all cylinders, achieving strong growth over the previous year, and I'm very happy to report that Taj Mahal New Delhi, popularly known as Taj Mansingh, is back in our portfolio with the bank.
It did miss full renovation completion for the first 6 weeks of this financial year, but it has been now performing very well on a daily basis. The next theme that I will come to, the fourth one, is our portfolio growth. Our growth momentum continued during this quarter. In the last quarter, we signed 6 new hotels and opened 3 new hotels. During the quarter, we signed 3 Taj hotels in international markets, 1 as an operating lease in Frankfurt and 2 hotels in Bhutan. So far, in the current financial year to date, we have signed 18 new hotels and opened 9. Our new hotels opened last quarter include Taj The Trees in Vikhroli in Mumbai, Taj Guras Kutir in Gangtok, and Wow Crest IHCL SeleQtions in Indore.
We will maintain this pace and are well-placed, as we have communicated and as we have guided in the past, to open at a minimum 20 hotels in this financial year. Our diverse brandscape enables us to be present in every geography, in every segment, at every price point, creating new itineraries and offerings, thus giving us greater degrees of freedom and resilience in our portfolio. The next theme is the diversification of our top line. My colleague, Giridhar Sanjeevi, our CFO, often talks about the importance of the diversification of top line. With our new brands and businesses, as well as our asset-light growth, we have embarked on a journey of this diversification.
As we enter the next phase of growth, we are reorganizing the three brands, or better said, we have already reorganized Ginger, Qmin, and amã under a dedicated vertical of new businesses, which is being headed by Ms. Deepika Rao, Executive Vice President and Member of Executive Committee. Our new businesses vertical clocked in a GMV of INR 240 crores in the first half of 2023-24. Enterprise revenue Ginger exceeded INR 100 crores, with a 24% growth over the previous year, and continued reporting healthy EBITDA margins at 37% in Q2. With a proven and profitable business model, Ginger is very well geared to scale up at a fast pace. Our Qmin and amã brands have established a strong customer connect and continue to scale up.
The evolution of Ginger that we started with the all-day dining is now scaled up quite well, and we have almost 40 Qmin branded outlets, which function as all-day dining. Taj continues to be a great success story for us. Yesterday, we signed a new concession agreement for a service and an outlet in Noida International Airport, which should start operations by end of next year. TajSATS has recorded its best ever Q2 performance, with revenues of INR 213 crore and an industry-leading EBITDA margin of 24.4%, which comes on the back of nine percentage point margin expansion over the last year. With almost 60% market share, TajSATS continues to lead the Indian airline catering segment.
Also, we are looking at further scaling up TajSATS operations besides Noida in other locations, and we are very pleased that we started operations at the Mopa Airport in Goa, and that is beginning to stabilize also well. Finally, I have to say there are two issues that come as themes, that is investments. Investment in our brands, assets, and capabilities, and investing in Paathya. In line with our objectives of long-term value creation for all stakeholders, we continue to invest in our brands, assets, and capabilities. We recently launched the refurbished Chambers, the private membership club at Taj Lands End, and have yesterday opened the Chambers at Taj West End in Bengaluru. Our flagship Ginger Hotel near Mumbai Airport is nearing its completion.
We have guided that we should have opened Ginger already a few weeks ago, but we remain very confident that in the next 2-3 weeks, this flagship and a trophy Ginger will be opening its doors. We have, also reimagined and scaled up our food and beverage brands. We launched a new concept in Taj Mahal, Delhi, called the Captain's Cellar, which is one of its kind contemporary wine bar concept, or as they call it in the West, a wonderful and one of its kind vinotheque. After receiving tremendous response in Delhi, we launched Loya in Taj West End in Bengaluru as well. Similarly, House of Ming, which opened its doors at St. James' Court in London less than a quarter ago, is already trending as the number 6 restaurant in London, as per TripAdvisor ranking.
I take quick investment in Paathya, staying true to our ethos of doing business the responsible way. Our ESG++ program, Paathya, has achieved significant milestones so far. IHCL now uses 37% energy from renewable sources and has installed 335 EV charging stations across 142 locations in India. Continuing our journey of eliminating single-use plastic, IHCL installed 27 bottling plants and achieved 47% recycling of water that is used. We are well on track to deliver our 2030 ESG targets. Finally, simplification, that is the buyout of minority shareholding in Piem Hotels. Before concluding the call, we would like to update you that the board has approved, subject to shareholders and other regulatory approvals, the buyout of additional shareholding of approximately 7% in Piem Hotels by way of a combination of share swap as well as cash.
IHCL currently has a 51.6% stake in Piem Hotels, which will increase to 58.6% post the proposed transaction. This will help us further simplify our holding structure. As always, we continue to stay focused on executing our Ahvaan 2025 strategy, and that focus has helped us win a lot of accolades also, which are not mentioned in the speech, but they range from being rated as the TripAdvisor Best Hotel of the World. That's the Rambagh Palace, celebrating 50 years of Rambagh next month, as well as getting rated with Condé Nast. Umaid Bhawan Palace is the number one hotel and further awards with Condé Nast and Travel + Leisure, and Golden Peacock, as well as CNBC, ICICI Lombard. That you can all have a look in our, as a part of our press release.
Thank you so much for your attention. We now open the floor for questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask questions may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking questions. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Binay from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi, team. Congratulations for a very strong quarter. Just two questions. Firstly, on the international side, we've seen a bit down on a YOY basis. Any comments on that? How should we see that playing out? Secondly, on the domestic side, I believe this is the time that we start to appreciate our corporate contract for the following year. Any hints about what kind of RevPAR growth are we sort of looking at, as we are looking into 2024? For these two questions. Thanks.
Thank you, Vinay. I think, let's take a step back and not look at just the corporate. I think the RevPAR growth numbers are in high double digits, driven still mainly by rates, which should help in the profitability on the domestic front. So I think we are very pleased to see that. And with all our renovation efforts that are going in, we've seen a huge shift in, as I mentioned before, Taj Mansingh. As we speak, we have shut down Malabar. We just have opened in a soft opening phase, Usha Kiran Palace in Gwalior. And whatever we renovate and comes back in its new avatar or new style, usually is showing at least a doubling of revenue. But the RevPAR growth remains very strong, and the business on the books is very strong.
The first 26 days of October have been very strong, and we expect this trend to continue. The very important what you touched upon is international. On the international front, as you read yourself in, here in the news, there are challenges in San Francisco, and it may take almost another 3-5 quarters for San Francisco to get back to where it used to be. Not as a hotel market, but with all the other things that have happened in that market from a macroeconomic perspective and a social perspective. And unfortunately, both U.K., with our presence in London, which is doing very well, but it could do much, much better than what it is doing. And also New York, which is not still back to the pre-COVID level, but the inflation has increased the cost.
So there are certain challenges, but we as management looked at as our hidden upside potential going forward, because if they were to come back the way it used to be, pre-COVID plus 10% to account for the inflation, and as well as if London was to come back, and with all the investments that we have made in our asset in London, in terms of renovations, in terms of adding the spa, in terms of adding the Chambers, in terms of adding House of Ming, in terms of adding the all-day dining there. and doing a lot of work in the, in, in our courtyard. I think we look at it as an upside potential that we have. But yes, Cape Town is doing fine, Dubai is doing fine, Maldives is a bit soft, Sri Lanka is on the way up.
So all in all, it's good. Lusaka is doing very well for us. So I think it's just really New York, San Francisco, and upside potential in London, which we are looking forward to, and that will hopefully change when we present Q3 and Q4 results in the next quarters.
Sir, thanks for that, Vineet. And just lastly, any comment from any inflationary pressures that you are seeing in the system across.
I saw that you have talked also about between still lagging revenue growth. But anything apart from that which you would call out, would be what a headwind to watch from a margin trajectory next year?
Not really. I think we are, as I said, we are seeing very strong business momentum, and we are also seeing very strong, not like-for-like growth for us. I think important is, as we have guided since our capital market day and in the previous quarters, that we are making investments in our future, be it through comprehensive asset management. So you, the more you invest, the more you displace. When you displace and when things come back, it just takes time. And, that is one that is taking care of not just the short term, we are taking care of the mid and the long term, brandscape for the company, as well as our investment in new businesses.
So as I mentioned, under Deepika Rao, we have created a new organization, because when we went through a pandemic, people were double-hatting and doing Ama or Qmin or other things on the side. But now there is a dedicated, focused organization with its own marketing, with its own finance, with its own sales, with its own revenue management in these three new business verticals under the leadership of Deepika Rao. And of course, that is an investment in our future. And as we said, this quarter, we have guided a bit more on Ginger. As of next quarter, we'll do more on Qmin. The following quarter, we'll guide more on Ama, and we'll start reporting more comprehensively on also on the new businesses.
And just one other comment, Vineet, that, if you look at, the incremental growth, secondly, revenue growth has been about 10% or so in this, in the Q2. We expect that to pick up in, in as we go along. So we don't see any stresses, because of inflation, as you pointed out, we don't see stresses at this point in time.
Just on the occupancy rate, like in the last call, you mentioned that GoI is now a 365-day destination. Again, in Q2, we see very good occupancy levels. And this question has come to you many times you were asked also, that what is next on occupancy GoTo? You know, so, any comments on that?
I think number one is that you have seen that the standalone occupancy went up to 75% that actually.
Yeah.
In the initial, actually. And I think, and, and if you combine it with the. There are two, three factors which could aid in occupancy. Number one, I would say, is the whole supply-demand thing. And you saw the chart, which shows that most of the supply is actually coming not in the key metros, but in the outside of the key metros, actually. So that just means that existing micro markets in key metros should be well protected and should benefit from rising occupancy. Secondly, all the demand factors, like, for instance, FTA, the foreign travel, visitors, all that should help. So my own sense is that occupancy could still, could still, go up, a little bit, actually.
However, I think, as we have always been saying, on the profitability, Vineet, I think, I think in the key metros, one thing that we've always mentioned, in the key metros anywhere in the world, whether it is Singapore or Hong Kong or anywhere else, you know, we generally tend to do an occupancy in excess of 75%. 75% is typically the fee. Like in Bombay, you see 85% occupancy. So occupancies tend to be very, around 70% plus, actually. And the rest of it, what really happens is that asset management helps, in terms of driving profitability, actually. And, and asset management has really helped, for instance, in Taj Lands End.
I mean, Taj Lands End in the recent past has been running at effectively 100%, 99%-100% occupancy on several days, negative in terms of what do you say? Oversold rates, actually. And that fundamentally happened because the shape of the hotel currently is completely different from what it was about 18 months ago, in terms of all the efforts taken, in terms of renovation, whether it is the theater, the Chambers, the business lounge, the gymnasium, and all of that, actually. So I think, so therefore, there are levers available beyond just supply and demand in terms of driving occupancies, actually.
Yeah, no, no, those are all good points, and I look forward to seeing this in person. Thank you.
Yeah, thanks, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Achal Kumar from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, good evening, gentlemen. So I had a couple questions, actually. So first of all, I just want to understand on this mix wherein you said that lot of the FC growth will be coming in non-luxury tier two, tier three segment. So, I mean, do you expect, since the capacity growth will be coming there, do you expect there's a potential risk of a pressure on the pricing in those tier two, tier three cities, non-luxury segment? Or do you see the demand growth will actually chase the supply growth, and hence you don't see any pressure. And that means effectively the overall average ARR of the system should decline. So if the traffic, if the mix is trending towards non-luxury segment, then the ARR should decline.
So how do you see that impact of the mix and how do you see that in the growth?
Achal, on a lighter note, if I may answer, it seems as if you're always looking for reasons to reduce the rates, and we as hoteliers are always looking at reasons to increase the rates. So if there is less supply coming into Mumbai or Delhi or Bengaluru, and the demand remains strong and the occupancy increases, our ability to charge as a sector, forget Taj or which brand, whichever may we talk about, should be normally higher because the new supply is coming in tier two or tier three cities, right? So not like there are not 10 or 20 hotels coming up in Mumbai. There are not 10 or 20 hotels coming up in Delhi. I think that is. And if you have large event halls like a Jio, like a Bharat Mandapam in Pragati Maidan, or like a Yashobhoomi in Dwarka in Delhi.
Even if you have one event which is going to host 2,000, 3,000, 5,000 people in a single hall, and half of them need accommodation, the city will be sold out. So I think, there is a structural change that is happening, and it may not bring in results tomorrow because some of these events need to be booked 9 months, 15 months, 18 months in advance. But today we have that infrastructure available, and these metros will benefit significantly. If new supply additions have to come, they will take 3-5 years to get added, and by that time, the demand, in theory, I repeat, in theory, should grow faster in these cities than the supply will.
I don't know whether you picked up the other statistics that we have put up on slide 13, which relevant is that 65% of the share of luxury pipeline is with Taj, actually.
Yeah, yeah. No, I saw, I saw that. Actually, I was coming to slide 13. I mean, you know, sorry, it was a different slide, but slide 13. I mean, you know, in, in, you have shown, you've presented about the ARRs, occupancy, and RevPAR in Q2 in different segments, Taj, SeleQtions, Vivanta, and Ginger. So while ARRs were up sharply, 8%, 11%, in Taj and SeleQtions, Vivanta, it was up only 1% in Ginger. So just, I mean, just to understand the reason of such a low growth in Ginger, is it, is it like, you know, was it an underlying trend that the prices are not going up in Ginger?
Or is it strategically sort of you are holding prices in Ginger so that to inflate the occupancy levels or occupancy in Ginger will significantly, significantly high? So is it a normalized trend? Is it a normal trend that pricing in Ginger may not go up sharply? Or, I mean, what, what's going on there? I just want to understand the sort of breakdown there, please, if you could help.
Thank you for pointing that out. It's an interesting one. See, Ginger, we have moved now 70% of Ginger portfolio has got renovated and repositioned. When a hotel is undergoing renovation or the inventory is not available, you don't see that change in the rates. As we get into Q3, Q4, and Q1, in the next 9-12 months, you'll see a significant increase in that rate. We did that. We did also, as I told you, human rebranding. Because of that, once the work's finished, they happen, you reopen the inventory, you start seeing the impact. Actually, the growth in Ginger as a percentage going forward, we feel will be much higher than what you are seeing here. Here you're seeing 14% RevPAR growth. You could see that number easily cross 20% going forward.
So because of the change in the business mix and the model, which does not happen over time, it has taken time, and still 30% of the portfolio needs to be done. So maybe it will not be 100%, it will be 90% or 85% in the next few quarters, but that will start showing results.
Right. Right. Fair enough. I understand. Another thing I wanted to understand about the demand trend. So basically, you know, when we recently checked on U.S. hotel industry and we found that, you know, the impact, COVID impact is still there. The demand is still. There's a strong leisure demand, as we call business or leisure. So how do you see the trend in India? I mean, do you see the COVID-driven trend has completely gone, or you still see the demand, the leisure demand for people taking multiple short trips, you know? So I just want to understand the mix. I mean, is it how you see? I mean, now in Q2 and going forward, how do you see the demand trend being?
Yeah. See, actually, you know, when you have events, whether it's a black swan or another major event, like a COVID, there are certain things that change forever. I've given this example in the few quarters before also. If from 1.4 billion people in India, only 5% is relevant for our sector, then you're talking about, you know, 70 million people, right? From that 70 million, if only 10%, that means 7 million, have changed their behavior pattern forever. That means they are now doing what you are calling leisure, combining business and leisure, and spending 5 extra nights in hotels in a year, then you have 35 million room nights, which was not there before from the same people in a year. That's the kind of change that is not just relevant for India.
If you look at the hospitality sector in general across the globe, the recovery has been led by domestic. And these partial reasons could be, you know, risk of travel, visas, whatever else was there. But there is another reason, or in India, Dekho Apna Desh. The other reason is that these are incremental room nights, which were not happening before. The people were not comfortable driving themselves. They always needed somebody to drive them. Now they get into the car and drive, and the number that I've taken is, you know, like, very, small base. This base, in reality, could be much higher.
Right. Right. Okay, fair enough. My last question is around your strategy towards international. I guess, I think you, you recently invested in England, you recently invested something in Germany. So, I mean, are you strategically looking at the international markets or, or you are, you, you're being opportunistic wherever you see the growth potential, you, you just invest there? And what kind of impact, I mean, international market, of course, you're facing difficulties in U.S. U.K. is doing pretty well. So overall, how, I mean, how do you expect. Do you think the investment in the international market could actually be a bit of a challenge initially, maybe until, until you really settle down there?
I fully agree with you. I don't disagree with you, but we have not invested in international market. You know, we announced a hotel in Frankfurt, is the investment comes from someone else. We're just signing an operating lease, which means we are just going to pay a rent. We're spending some money on the Taj brand, like, Chambers, et cetera, but it pays itself faster than we think. So our investments will be very much India-centric. We are not, having any strategic, intent to invest in international markets on, on our own money, but we are very open to signing management contracts. We signed management contracts in Riyadh for our 250th hotel. In Diriyah Gate , we signed, recently two contracts in Bhutan on management contract.
Before that, we signed 2 management contracts in Dhaka, because in the Indian subcontinent, even Dhaka is very important to us for both the Taj and Vivanta. But international, we will be very selective, and we are very focused with Taj brand. We will keep going 1 or maximum 2 hotels per annum, but preferably on a management contract basis, and if it's a western hemisphere, using other people's institutional capital on a operating lease basis, where we might end up just paying for the investments in the brand or in the upgrade, which is a very nominal and a small amount. We end up doing that even in India. Our investments in the short and medium term, if we do very selectively, will be in our own home turf and not outside.
Perfect. Thank you so much, and-
Yeah, actually, everyone is looking to invest in India. It would be foolish of us to go and invest outside.
You're right.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Lavanya from UBS. Please go ahead.
Hi. Am I audible?
Shalin?
Yeah. Shalin Desai, sorry. Hi, how are you?
We got another name, just Lavanya.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Lavanya, I go to India with.
Shalin, we'll just.
Right. So I have two questions, right? In our weakest quarter, you guys have achieved 75% occupancy, right? And so, I think our full year occupancy will be definitely higher than 75. Now, at what juncture do you start thinking about changing your-
Sorry, you are breaking up, Shalin. Hello? I can't hear you, Shalin.
We seem to have lost the line for Shalin. We'll go to the next question. The next question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good evening. My question is on, maintenance contracts with respect to the.
Your voice is breaking. If you're, if you're on a hands-free, we request you to use the handset. Prateek? We seem to have lost the line for Prateek as well. We move to the next question. The next question is from the line of Nihal Mahesh Jham from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Yes, thank you so much. Good evening, Mr. Chhatwal and Mr. Sanjeevi. My first question was that you keep giving the picture of the premium that our companies have been able to achieve over and above the industry, which has only increased versus pre-COVID. If I were to ask you, say, within a specific city, what are the factors that are making giving us a better pricing? Hello?
Yeah. So Nihal, there are various factors. It depends from city to city. But generally speaking, one could say your ability to charge is higher if the city is going through a very high occupancy and is, and it's sold out. And you know that for several years, Taj, especially, which is the backbone of our company, still with other businesses being relatively either in the infancy or a growth phase, Taj commands a premium because it is India's strongest brand across all sectors, and it has been rated for three years now among the world's strongest hotel brands. So if the occupancy levels are high and healthy, your ability to charge is higher. And we are seeing that across our portfolio in a very, strong way.
As Giridhar just now mentioned, it's not just a hotel or demand coming because the occupancy is high. It's your ability to charge because of the new spa in Lands End. It's your ability to charge because we've opened a theater in a non-revenue generating space, which can do previews, but people can also book it to watch cricket matches. We have completely redone the Chambers out there. We have done a new lounge for our club floor there. So all these things put together help you to charge, but of course, they also cost money, and they also cost displacement, as I mentioned before. But our investments in our iconic assets and our asset management initiatives are definitely showing a very big jump for us in absolute amounts.
If you go and look at the historic performance of Indian hotels, let's say for last 10, 15 years on Q1 and Q2, you will see that the difference is, like, massive in terms of performance. That is because of all these investments that are happening. It's not just you're able to charge a premium. You're able to charge a premium for a variety of reasons.
Got that. Second question was, Mr. Giridhar alluded to it. Do you specifically believe in this quarter there was a divergence between how room and F&B worked, and would that normalize in the coming quarters?
I think it should, because F&B, you know, the wedding dates are all in this quarter. So I think that is one of the reasons why the F&B was a bit more muted, actually. And in general, I think, on a longer term basis, I think there is significantly more opportunity in F&B. So you'll see, some of our results in F&B kind of playing out as we go forward.
My other question was on. We see that we're obviously increasing our stake in one of the subsidiaries that we have, considering JVs and associates that we currently own. Is there a long-term plan to maybe increase the stake or make it a full subsidiary, like we did with Ginger in the future?
Obviously, those plans are there. The intentions are there, Nihal, as I've always said. I think these things are not easy to come by. So we use every opportunity which comes, whether small or big, to consolidate. Like in this case, we have an opportunity to take out 7% because those people wanted an exit. So anybody wanting an exit, we will definitely use the opportunity to do. I mean, this is something that we are always on the ball in terms of trying. So let's see, let's see where we get to.
Our cash reserve that we have built up, we are today having already at the end of the quarter, INR 1,400 crore, approximately, cash, which keeps increasing every month. So, we don't always have to just do share swap. We can also buy, we can have inorganic growth, we can have simplification, we can have consolidation. We have all possible opportunities now available to us because we have no debt and we also have cash reserves.
Understood. Thank you so much, and good evening to you. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Prateek Kumar from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Hello, Prateek, can you hear me now?
Yes.
So my question was on, you mentioned in your presentation about the events, impact of events is lesser now because we have like , the overall impact is less than only 0.5%-1% because of G20 or one-off year-on-year. We had a lot of questions that what after FY 2024 into FY 2025 in terms of events. Overall, because the impacts are only very minuscule, I just want to clear, so it's the business as usual, like, for FY 2025 or for the hotel industry, right?
We agree with you, Prateek.
Absolutely.
We not only agree with you, we strongly endorse that the hotel sector is very well positioned, and all these things that you are hearing as a one-off now will become almost like a habit going forward. So it doesn't matter, you know, it will be again, whether it's a hockey World Cup or it's a cricket World Cup, or it's asking for Olympics or, you know, these things will just keep happening. You become the fifth largest economy of the ambition and aspiration to become third. So all other things, including costs, including revenues, including events, all come with it. It will not be just just GDP comes. It will be a combined impact of all these things happening.
Do you think it really does improve the cyclicality of the sector, or will it still remain like a decrease when the downturn comes? Maybe it will feel like many years away, but do you think it's like reducing cyclicality?
The cyclicality in the sector will always remain, and we have to differentiate here on the domestic versus the international front. In the domestic front, because there is still so much to be done and India is expected to grow at a certain rate on GDP, the cyclicality impact should be lower than what we have witnessed in the past. Or alternatively, the length of the cycle will start changing. Also, you know, the way we have articulated our strategy is that we have had new businesses as well as not like-for-like growth based on asset-light model. That should help us as Indian Hotels to mitigate, to a great extent, cyclicality going forward. So I think, today, when we were last time hit, we were at 17% EBITDA, and we gave a guidance of 25% EBITDA margin.
Today, we are giving a guidance of 33, and if you are hit at 33 and your EBITDA margin drops by half, you are at what we would have been in 2017, 2018. That's the, that's the change in the business model and the change in our portfolio mix and the change in addressing all the customer touch points with different brands. Does that answer or,
Yes.
You're looking for something else?
Very useful. My, my next question is on international markets. So, I heard you had, like, management contracts and problems in international markets, while some markets impacted by global macro or other reasons. So the downsizing international market impact such markets, for now, actually, you're only looking at management contracts. So it creates also unlike sort of lower yield markets because of problems there?
Not really, Prateek. It's not our strategy to own single assets in international markets. It's not a part of our strategy. If we were to take a slimmer equity or do key money or spend some money in renovation to secure a long-term contract, we are happy to do that. That's not. It's a, that's like a very small amounts that we talk about. But in fact, hotel investments are anti-cyclical, so if the markets are down, the kind of prices you get today, you would not get otherwise. But we would use our partners in India and outside of India to help us do that growth than us invest, investing into assets. That kind of capital we don't want to block.
I was asking that in the state rate, which is very similar what we have in India, 5%-7%. So even in a down market, we should have a similar effect.
Yeah, management fees, management fees are generally quite healthy. In fact, if you see the management fees that we have from Dubai and all that, very good, actually. And these are long-term contracts, and so I think, we, we don't compromise on take rates for the sake of getting a contract. It's not possible, actually. It's not possible. You can't do that.
Sure. My last question is on referral growth, which is actually, like, very strong in terms of year-on-year performance. So at Neu, we are getting, I think, plus last year, Neu was a record. We had 28, which should continue, like, as you say, like per year.
I think so. In fact, you've seen the chart that we have presented on slide 54, which shows how the referral growth is about 15% in Q2. Normally, we do see that 30% jump between Q2 to Q3 and we have business is very strong at this point in time. So I don't see a problem in the overall double-digit referral growth last year. No, not at all.
Sure. These are my questions. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Shalin from UBS. Please go ahead.
Yeah, it's Shalin again. Right, sorry, last time I got dropped off. So, initially, I was asking, you know, if you were the peer on 20% occupancy levels and in a weak quarter, and most likely we'll end the year with a higher occupancy. So at what occupancy level do you think that you will start thinking about changing your customer mix? And we will see, you know, more of ARR. Also, I think also it's been good, but, you know, the idea here is the question we get is that, you know, how much ARR can improve from here? So, you know, where the base is right now and where the base can go off of our customer. So any thought on year-to-date you've done?
See, it's a double-digit growth. If you look at standalone, the ARR has increased by 18%, and on the enterprise also by 11%. That's very healthy. The RevPAR increases of, like, 28% on standalone and 16% on, you know, enterprise level at domestic markets, right? We have just discussed this before this call on a very different issue, and we are not seeing any change. We are seeing this trend continuing on the domestic front. There is some challenges on the international front, but on the domestic front, you know, Mumbai is very strong, Delhi is very strong, Goa is very strong. So all your top 10 markets in India are extremely strong.
And what we tend to forget, Shalin, is we have been very successfully able to mitigate the impact of Nipah virus or all the landslides and flooding in Uttarakhand as well as in, you know, Gangtok, et cetera. So there has been a lot of disruption that happened, but you don't see that when you look at the consolidated picture, which shows that some of your markets are extremely strong in terms of occupancy. And if your occupancy increases, your ability to charge increases. You're more sold out dates, when you have a very high occupancy dates, and that's when you start charging more and more. And we don't think about customer mix or change at a certain level of occupancy.
We think about that, and our revenue managers have to think about that at least 5-6 times a day, if not every 2 hours. This is just a part and parcel of the business.
If I just build on that, Shalin, I think, if you look at slide 68 in our presentation.
Sorry.
On slide 68 of our presentation, the mix is 60, 59%, and that number has actually been going up. It was not 59% pre-pandemic, it was about 52 or so. So the transient mix will keep going up. Also driven by the fact that it is not idiots and genius. It is also about how we are investing in the brand and loyalty and all that. All that is transient. So our transient proportion will keep going up. That's number one. Number two, corporate is 12%, and that's evidently so. We have discouraged a number of small corporates from getting into long-term contracts, and we've actually asked them to book on the web, actually, which means that we are treating, treating them like a transient.
And third, as you know, we have spoken about it, that we have changed the corporate contract from a fixed rate to partially to a rate which is linked to that rate, ARR actually, which means it is 25% of BAR and things like that. So, you know, those kind of steps we anyway continue to take. And beyond that, of course, as Puneet said, the revenue management keeps, and you know, you do need the MICE because they not only give you an F&B, but also rooms. So all of those we do. You know, you do need the group because they give you base occupancy. But I think, so hence, I think, transient will continue to be a very important part of what drives the rates up, actually, what drives the rates up.
That will continue to be a very important mix element in our business actually.
Right. No, exactly, I think that's what I was looking for, that besides increase, room increase, you have a lever, in terms of changing your customer mix, that will inherently change your or increase your ARR. And you guys are always-
We have been doing it, Charlene.
you've been doing it.
Yeah.
Right. Okay. So, second question . So when I look at your PNL right now, I think you guys can generate INR 1,200-INR 1,500 crore of cash flow, pre-CapEx, after maintenance CapEx, and that probably can grow at 15% CAGR, next, let's say, to five years. And that will give you something like, 3,000 crore kind of a cash over the next five-year time period. And if that, let's say, is 2.5 crore per room kind of a number, right? So, you guys can add anything around INR 3,000 of the CapEx in the luxury segment, and even if my calculation is extra, my CapEx per room is low.
So, on the current domestic owned room, which practically means you can increase your capacity by 60-odd%. My challenge is: How are you going to do that, right? I mean, are you thinking about some inorganic activity or starting some land parcel? Because, just gestation period itself would be like 3-4 years.
Yeah. No, I think you're right, Charlene, that there is definitely cash generation, and the utilization of the cash and capital allocation is clearly a very important thing. And then if you look at what we are currently doing, we are definitely doing greenfield projects, whether it is Jaipur, Gujarat, and other places. And some of these places, we are not buying land, it's all lease actually. So which means we're not really buying land, that's number one. So greenfields will continue to be an important part of how we will expand organically through adding capacity. That's number one. As far as inorganic is concerned, we continue to look at opportunities, Charlie. I think as I have always pointed out, I think NCLT has been a very difficult way in terms of hotel properties so far, actually.
We'll have to do some bilateral transactions, and we continue to look at. We've got a very good business development team, which kind of looks at, all of this. I think ultimately what is important is not just the opportunity, but also to make sure that we pay the right price as well, actually. Organic growth through greenfields, whether it is using extra FSI available in land bank to, to sort of build. All of those we will do, Charlie, actually. I think, and you're absolutely right, that these are, you know, these take 3, 4 years to, to come. It's not as if that it comes overnight. Inorganic is important to be able to, like we talk of, conversions in management contracts like Cidade de Goa are coming on stream, one fine day.
I think, I mean, inorganic will actually give us immediate capacity, but we are on the lookout, and we continue to sort of look at those opportunities, provided the value, you know, these are value accretive, actually.
Got it. Got it. That's it from my side. Best of luck and good share. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rajiv Bharati from Dam Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, Rajiv.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, sir. So my question is on slide number 69. So you have seen the crew business growing by 50%. So and earlier, the contribution used to be close to 3%, if I'm not wrong, and now it's close to 2% now. My question is in terms of sensitivity of the rates that you are rising, increasing on segment, which is the, let's say, bottom three segments in terms of more sensitive, if you take better rates little higher, probably we'll be seeing a drop out?
No, no, I think the crew will always be a segment which should be there in a different number of hotels, actually, because revenue management is about base occupancy, which can come from crew, it can come from low-rated corporates and things like that. And then the rest of the revenue management will push up rates, actually. So these are all elements of a business. You can't charge, what do you say, the highest rate for every segment, and every segment has a role to play, actually. So hence, I think, so things like crew will certainly continue to play a certain role in every hotel.
My question is on that, on the slide, you have shown a 50%, tab, right? Which the contribution there,
Yeah, but that 50%, but that 50%, you know that don't look at that 50%. The crew share of revenue is 2%, yeah?
My question is on the sensitivity of this segment in terms of, say, increasing rates and being shipped to a lower category hotel?
No, no, but you know, you know, you know, I think, I think the crew business, these are, these businesses come at a certain rate for sure, actually, and they are low rates for sure. And, sensitivity of the crew rate, I don't know, because these are all contracts that you enter into with Air India or Vistara and all of those actually. And these are very long-term contracts, and there are standard ways in which people operate. There are no sensitivity saying that if I increase the rate, crew will go away. If we don't want crew in a hotel, we do that also. There are some hotels where you say: You know what? We don't want crew, and we will ship them to another hotel in the same city, because the good news is that we have multiple hotels in the same city.
I think that's the call that we can take, you know? So I think, but I don't think we worry about sensitivity of, rates to crew business in that sense. We don't think like that.
Sure. And on slide 22, you have shown the operating leverage in some key hotels, but we, when we look at slide 61-63, where you're giving subsidiary-wide performance, and particularly Piem, Roots and Oriental. We don't see the similar operating leverage play out in terms of the swing in Air India versus the swing in the top line.
Obviously, go to slide, what slide, which slide?
There is, there is. Let me, let me explain that. There are a few hotels in, Piem which are being under renovation. I explained that in earlier points about displacement. So Nasik is undergoing extensive refurbishment so that it can get upgraded to Taj. And Taj View in Agra has just finished some, some refurbishment and has come back into operation, and you will start seeing that impact of operating leverage. As, see, two hotels out of a total of six or seven, they create a big impact that is going to be positive. But maybe by the time they come back, we take also Blue Diamond in Pune, which is a part of that portfolio, also under renovation. So there is some work to be done.
We'll, as I said, keep investing in our assets, and we are very happy with the way Tajvi ew Agra has turned out, in Piem. We are really looking forward to completing the renovation of Nasik and starting the one with Blue Diamond.
Yeah, thanks a lot. Those are my questions on all this.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jaideep Karwa from Ambit Capital. Please go ahead.
Sure. Thanks a lot, and good evening, gentlemen. So my first question is relating to TajSATS. Now, given that it has been growing at a very fast clip, and you also have plans of increasing operations to other locations as well. From an annual revenue run rate of roughly about INR 800 crore-INR 900 crore, where do you see that over the next three years?
Yeah, we think that this 800-900 could easily grow by, you know, another 30%-40%, mainly dependent not just on the airline traffic, it's the non-aviation business, which we are considering in the new kitchen, especially outside of the airport zone for, you know, cost efficiency reasons. And we do believe that TajSATS is very well positioned to go beyond 1,000 in the next financial year and far beyond 1,000 in the following year.
There are a number of drivers here. So I think number one, as we talked about, that the increase in the number of airports, and obviously these create opportunities in terms of expanding the business. Secondly, what's also happening is that airlines used to earlier, if there's a Bombay airport route, as an example, airlines used to cater from different caterers, one in Jaipur and one in Bombay. Now you see on many of those routes, there is catering from only one city, which means there is reverse catering, which is the Bombay airport flight, the same, the food from Jaipur-Bombay also goes from Bombay. Those are also happening, and smaller vendors in some of these destinations are also not being used by airlines. This is the second one. The third is the non-aviation, as we pointed out.
Fourth is the whole synergies with Air India and Vistara now, which should come in terms of developing. I think there are a number of different levers that are there, which can help to grow both the top line and the bottom line in this business actually.
Sir, what would be the current share of non-aviation business in the overall TajSATS revenue?
It's not very significant.
It's less than 10% at the moment, but our aspiration is to grow it to more than 20 over the next 3-5 years.
Understood. Similarly, in relation to your management fee guidance as well. Now, given that again, growth has been pretty remarkable on that side as well, where would your guidance stand as against what you had guided for about INR 550 crore by FY 2026 under Ahvaan?
I think, you know, I think we will cover from the capital market day next-
Yeah, capital market day, we guide you more on management fees, but we have 80 contracts in pipeline. If you take out 5 or 6 that are owned, and maybe another 5 that might be leased, the rest is all management. So the management fee income will keep growing.
Yeah.
Sir, lastly, on your little property as well. One, in terms of your renovation, what kind of a benefit are you expecting once you are done with the renovation? Will we still see some benefit during the second half? Also on your Santa Cruz property, what is going to be your pricing strategy there?
Which property are you saying in Delhi?
No, Ginger Santa Cruz, I mean.
Ginger Santa-
Ginger Santa Cruz, you know, it's our, it's our trophy asset. For that Ginger brand, we, we do believe that in 3 years of operation, it should reach INR 100 crore in revenue, because that's what the market is for that 371 rooms. And, it's a very fairly large property. If you're Mumbai-based and you drive by, and one sees the impact it has. We are waiting for some licenses, and some cleaning up of the facade and access road. And, as and when that happens, whether it takes 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 4 weeks, but we will be. The opening is imminent. It will definitely open in very much foreseeable future, I would say, and foreseeable future is limited to weeks and not to months.
Sure, sir, that's very helpful. Any comment on the renovation side of it? What kind of benefit should we expect in the second half, and then overall, what kind of benefit should we expect after renovation in terms of rates that you charge in your Ginger portfolio? Any indication there?
For Ginger as a portfolio for renovation? Yeah, the Ginger, what we are seeing on the Lean Luxe, as we call it, the Lean Luxe hotels in almost all cities get north of 3,000, and in Mumbai and all, they even get much higher rate. So Ginger Santa Cruz should operate north of INR 6,500-INR 7,000, stabilized rate. So it depends on the city, it depends on the size of the property, but we are no longer into that category the way this brand was launched at, you know, like INR 999 or a cheap kind of hotel. This is a functional hotel that provides all possible services, except for, you know, swimming pool and those kind of additions. But you'll have an all-day dining restaurant.
The F&B, when we started, the Ginger brand was outsourced. So actually, just the name is old. Everything else is just new about Ginger. We have insourced the food and beverage, we have added meeting rooms, and just be patient with us for a few weeks. We'll like to invite you for the opening of Ginger in Santa Cruz. All of you.
Sure. Wish you all the best. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Anuj Kubade from Investec. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity and good evening, everyone. Just two questions. Based on your initial remark, when you mentioned that, you know, the US business have been end up upcoming, actually expected to remain stable or turn out to be a better performer despite this quarter from here on. Exactly what gives us this confidence, this turnaround time? Is this something happening or going to happen at a macro level in the US, or there's some change in strategy from our end that would lead to stabilization of trends?
The, there is a very good performance we had in San Francisco pre-COVID. We had turned it profitable. It's a zero debt. We own the asset. It's a relatively small sized property in the middle of town, in Union Square, which is a great location, but the market changed. So I don't think there is any issues in San Francisco in the mid and long term. It's a short term that that city is suffering for a variety of reasons, which have nothing to do just with hospitality. It's it's a whole macroeconomic thing, as I said. New York is New York. New York, London, Paris, these are the top lodging markets of the world. And we do see that there is a change and a shift that will come there.
And that keeps happening, these kind of markets, with one event in New York of a G20 kind, you know, you have UNGA, you know, the United Nations General Assembly, in the month of September, and the whole revenue base changes there. All we need is a few more events like that, which will come, which will happen, and that will drive the change that New York is seeing. Also, the US dollar has become very expensive. To travel to New York is not booming as much as it used to boom when the US dollar was weaker. So all these things play out, but I don't think anything is permanent forever. So I'm not here to predict currency rates, but definitely certain things have a short-term impact.
It's very important for our brands to be in New York and London, and that is what differentiates us. That's what gives us the strength of playing on the same pitch as many other equivalent or important international brands in this segment play on the global arena. You have to be in the top lodging markets of the world.
Okay. Got it, sir. Second on the capital allocation, I know, sir, you have already answered it, but what you have mentioned is that we have multiple options as of now for the allocation, like NL68, it comes to JVs or today, inorganic growth, renovations. We're looking for assets which are under NCLT. Getting this, do we have any other concrete plan or we have covered almost everything on today? Or is there any change in strategy to have 55 property, manage and own property? Are we going back to having, you know, more of an owned or managed property? I mean, just to get to know where exactly do we plan to, you know, allocate this particular kind of allocation that we have. That's all.
See, we are, we have given that guidance under our 2025, there is no change. Only thing is, as and when we achieve the targets, the owned might marginally decrease because of the growth in the managed portfolio. But because we are iconic and we have some of these great assets, we can't just either sell them or get out of them. Actually, they do provide us, as we said, the absolute amount of profitability is coming from these, iconic assets. Unlike, Giridhar just now mentioned with Taj Lands End, the way it has been performing, Taj Mahal Palace, in South Mumbai, or now the way Taj Mansingh or Taj Palace is doing in Delhi. So we are very, pleased with that. We'll keep these kind of assets.
Today, it represents on a total portfolio, including hotels under development, around 50/50, but in operation, still the asset-heavy side of the portfolio is higher. But with more and more openings of rooms and hotels under management contracts, we hope to have a balanced portfolio within the next 12-15 months. In operation, we have it in when we include the pipeline. And going forward, maybe the owned part of the portfolio will become, let's say, 45, and the managed will become 55. Because with the Ginger, we want to be more in operating leases, which is also considered as owned. But technically, a leased hotel is also owned hotel. So, so I think, very carefully we will manage, this mix, and the mix that gives us the best of absolute return, but also, helps us to be a margin-enhancing, company.
Okay. Lastly, any update on the Sea Rock ?
Yes, we have submitted the plans, and we are waiting to hear. So as and when we know, we will update, and if needed, we'll have a separate call. But yes, we have submitted plans online now for the development.
Fine, sir. That's it. Thanks for your question.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pallav Singhal from Dolat Capital . Please go ahead.
Hi, Mr. Chhatwal. I have two questions. One is regarding the branded supply. If I look at your slide, 7-8, you get 5%-6% every year. If I look at the growth plans for peers, everybody is talking about different contract growth. So how is this fresh supply coming for you guys when the physical situation is limited?
You know, we have given that guidance. We remain quite bullish that as of this month or next month, you can say we'll be opening 1.8 hotels a month. We have 80 hotels in pipeline. If we even stopped signing any new contracts today, we would be opening 20 hotels every 12 months for the next 36 months, which means 60 hotels to open. So I think from that side, our pipeline is very strong, very strong and very healthy, and we expect it to keep growing.
Yeah, I understand your supply graph. I've seen that you're almost doubling your management contract. My question is, fresh supply is not coming, how you are kind of the market share of supply?
So what we are saying is that we have not said that supply is not coming. I think we have said that there's a certain pattern we are seeing in terms of growth, and eventually, I think funding will start and funding has started. And eventually, in the next three, four years, the new supply should reverse. You know, new supply takes time, and I think bear in mind that management contracts are not signed when the property is fully ready. Management contracts are signed when the owner is kind of trying to start the design process, actually. And we get a share at that stage itself.
So if you look at slide 76, where we talk of the number of inventory per year, you will see 3,000 rooms per year is what we have said we will open. And it is because these contracts are signed today, which will open, say, in 2020. So we are signing at a greenfield before the project probably gets off the ground, actually.
Okay. If we can continue with the Shalin question, you're currently, when you sign a management contract, normally capture one fifth or one sixth of the potential EBITDA. Why not go aggressive? You have cash flows, you have a balance sheet in asset creation or acquiring some of these contracts?
Sure. We would consider any options that come. We are today, as we said, well positioned. We don't have debt, and we have cash reserves to do whatever makes sense. So as you said, if being aggressive makes sense on the domestic front, we will be aggressive. If it makes sense to invest in a few more Ginger properties, we will invest. If it makes sense to have an iconic Taj, we would do so, like we are doing in Lakshadweep. We're building two Taj properties in line with the history of the company. We built Goa, we built Kerala, we built Andaman. So, so we are also building now. Lakshadweep will be world-class resorts. These are small, maybe like a total of 150 keys, both of them put together, or 175.
But that part will happen, and it takes time to build resorts. It takes 3-5 years to get into such re-remote locations and build the place. But once it is built and ready, then it will be fine. But it is aggressive. If you're not aggressive, you will not go to these places.
Yeah. Okay, thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saurabh Madaan from Quest Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.
Thank you for taking the question. When you get into a renovation or what kind of return ratios you target, how do you identify the project which will be able to generate the kind of ROI or RP from.?
Sorry, we can't, we can't understand you. Your line is not clear.
I think-
Saurabh, if you're on a handset, we request you to use the handset.
Is it better, sir?
Yeah. Speak, maybe speak a little slowly, Saurabh, so that we can hear you better.
Is it better?
This is much better. Absolutely.
Hello.
Yes, it is better. It is better. We can hear you. So why don't you. I, we just request you to speak a little slowly so that we can get the got it.
Sure, sure, sure. I just wanted to understand your thoughts on getting to a new CapEx or renovation. What kind of return ratios do you target? Target?
So I think fundamentally, we, you know, we look at the normal racks, yes. I think we look at the normal racks. Normally, in this industry, we take about 11.5% rack, and as long as the return continues to be above that, we are fine. In our renovations, we generally there is absolutely no problem because on renovations, what you're doing is an existing property you're renovating for better returns. On greenfield, in general, 11.5% rack is good, and we make sure that we earn better than that, so there's no problem.
How would you receive of the India business and outside India?
Sorry, we can't hear you.
You'll have to repeat. You'll have to repeat, yeah.
Say it separately the questions, please.
Yeah.
I just wanted to understand, would you be able to share, our ROE properties in India and properties outside India?
We have, if you look at our capital market case presentation, if you look at it last May, please look at it on the website. We have clearly given the Return on Capital Employed for domestic assets and the international assets. So you can pick it up from there.
Sure, sure. Thank you.
It's in the appendix. It's in the appendix.
Thank you.
Maybe the last, last couple of questions, please.
Yes, we have the last question in queue. The last question is from the line of Nikhil Agarwal from VT Capital. Please go ahead.
G ood evening, sir, and thank you for the opportunity. So my question was on the debt side. You've reduced your debt to quite a significant extent in your, in the first half. But the finance costs have not reduced as such. So was it because you paid your debt at the back end, at the back end of the quarter, or is there any other reason?
No, no, no, no, no, no, that's wrong. It is just, this is the accounting-
I think lease, I think you're getting confused with the lease, capital, interest on lease capitalization. So, I think it is nothing else actually. Otherwise, the finance cost is actually negative. It's, I think, about, so it's negative. So I think when you say finance costs on the P&L, those includes the costs on lease capitalization.
You see, Indian accounting standard that change what goes above and what goes below, but we don't have any debt.
Exactly. Okay . Got it, sir. And so lastly, you said your Q3 would also be a double-digit growth year-on-year, given that last year Q3 was also your highest ever quarter. So you're confident of getting that double-digit growth in quarter three as well?
See, Q3 is always the best quarter. Was not last year. If you go back in the history, Q3 would always come out to be the best quarter.
Mm-hmm.
As we mentioned before, given the business on the books that we have for the month of November already, because the visibility is short, in the 26 days that we have had of October, it is nothing that makes us believe that we should not have similar kind of growth that we have witnessed last year, year-on-year basis, if not higher. We even think it will be higher.
All right. That's it for me. Thank you.
Thank you, everyone. who joined the call. Thank you for asking the questions that you did. For any other queries, please feel free to reach out us in our corporate office, our investor relation teams, and we really look forward to talking to all of you at the end of next quarter. Our very best wishes for the upcoming festive season, and hopefully you use all our hotels, all our brands and us properties, and spend all your monies in our restaurants. Thank you for joining. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you very much. On behalf of The Indian Hotels Company Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, ladies and gentlemen. You may now disconnect the lines.
Thank you.