Please note that this conference is being recorded. At the outset, I would like to clarify that certain statements made or discussed on the conference call today may be forward-looking in nature, and a disclaimer to this effect has been included in the investor communications shared with you earlier. The results document have also been shared with you earlier and also has been posted on the company's website. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ranjit Cirumalla from IIFL Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Nirav. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Deepak Nitrite's Q4 and FY 2024 earnings conference call. Today, we have with us Mr. Maulik Mehta, Executive Director and CEO; Mr. Sanjay Upadhyay, Director, Finance and Group CFO; and Mr. Som Sekhar Nanda, CFO of Deepak Nitrite Limited. We will begin the call with an opening remarks from the management team, followed by an interactive Q&A session. To begin, Mr. Maulik Mehta will share views on the operating performance and the growth plans of the company, followed by Mr. Sanjay Upadhyay, who shall take us through the financial and segmental performance. I now invite Mr. Mehta, to share his opening comments. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Good afternoon, everybody. Thank you for taking your time out to join our conference call. As we entered FY 2024, we faced multitude of headwinds, such as low price dumping from countries such as China, continued recessive trends in the EU zone, a crisis that continues in the Red Sea area, which affects geopolitics as well as trade, and a general weakness in certain parts of the market due to an uncertain future caused by many of these tensions at these points. In addition to this, demand for products relating to agrochemicals remained soft. Despite these obstacles, we successfully navigated the complexities and maintained a steady supply of products for our clients. We also maintained, or in many cases, improved our wallet share.
If there's one thing that the team at Deepak understand, it is the business landscape that is challenging rather than conducive, and we are prepared to apply ourselves to adapt and to innovate in order to navigate through the variability of this macro backdrop. As we've demonstrated over the past 50 plus years, we strive to deliver a steady performance and enable and ensure a reliable supply to our clients, regardless of the external pressures we face. We responded to recent business headwinds by implementing the following tactical initiatives over the last 12 months. One, we leveraged our strong brand and market position, prioritizing our most important strategic relationships, enabling us to achieve growth in sales volumes. Two, we've put in a lot of work to optimize our assets and enhance efficiency, which has led to debottlenecking opportunities and record production for key intermediates.
This has elevated our competitive position in a situation of abundant supply and will continue to serve us well as the market sentiment improves. Third, additionally, our initiatives in process efficiency and cost optimization has resulted in savings in areas such as yield enhancement and power and fuel costs, providing some counter to the margin pressure from the current business landscape. With this backdrop, I will outline our performance for the fourth quarter and the financial year, ending March 31, 2024, as well as our strategic plans for the coming year. Following this overview, Mr. Upadhyay will delve into the details of our financial performance and position. We will then open the floor for a Q&A session to address any questions you may have. Deepak reported consolidated annual revenues of INR 7,758 crore, a resilient performance across business lines, driven by increased volumes.
This was enabled by improved plant efficiency, and our teams have been able to deliver record volumes in several products. FY 2024 production volumes have been increased by 16% year-on-year, and we have improved market share despite the moderated environment characterized by lower sales prices. This performance was anchored by strong gains in the Phenolic segment, which witnessed continued volume growth owing to enhanced operational efficiency and debottlenecking efforts. Revenue performance was maintained in the Advanced Intermediates segment on a sequential basis, despite subdued pricing trajectory amid a benign RM price environment. We've reported an EBITDA of INR 1,199 crore in FY 2024, lower by 11%, reflecting this moderated realization. This does not include the insurance claim of INR 80 crore received during the quarter, which is classified as an exceptional item.
Favorable product mix management, coupled with increased volumes in the AI and phenol segments, have helped us pace our profitability. The operating leverage gains helped maintain the quarter-on-quarter EBITDA performance in an environment that was marked by a steep decline in realization for several products, even sharper than the raw material price decline. Our teams have done a commendable job given this macroeconomic backdrop. Taking cognizance of this achievement, the board declared a dividend of INR 7.5 per equity share, which is 375% on a face value of INR 2 for the financial year 2023-24. In our strategic business units, the Advanced Intermediates segment experienced little pressure on revenue, though the volumes would have been higher by 16%, propelled by resilient demand from both domestic and international markets.
While agrochemicals focused products are still witnessing demand headwinds, other applications relating to pharma, as well as discretionary sectors like dyes, textiles, paper, home care, glass, among others, are seeing a gradual volume-led recovery. In this business environment, the company has, as I mentioned, either maintained or increased its market share across nearly all its products. Deepak Phenolics achieved a healthy top-line performance, driven by plant efficiency improvements, with the highest production during the year ended, notably in phenol, acetone, cumene and IPA. While the profitability saw a dip due to subdued realizations, prospects continue to remain optimistic with a stabilizing demand-supply scenario and planned forward integration projects. Continued efforts to enhance plant efficiency and optimize assets are expected to further strengthen DNL's position in the market and drive future growth. The strategic debottlenecking endeavor was pivotal for Deepak Phenolics, catapulting the phenol production in FY 2024.
Moreover, various initiatives carried out to improve operational efficiency and product excellence amplified Phenolics' competitive edge in the market. As a general practice, the company continues to interface with third-party experts who audit the plant's safety and reliability in these conditions as well. Future performance is anticipated to be buoyed by multi-year contracts, successful pilots, and new product introductions, along with new formulation introductions. While some segments experienced subdued demand recovery, others, such as construction and infrastructure, will continue to show healthy growth prospects, prompting a focus on wallet share and debottlenecking initiatives to optimize operations. In terms of geographic split, our standalone operations, we improved the share of exports from 43 - 47 over the last year. On a control basis, the proportion of domestic and export revenue of 80%, 20% remains unchanged.
Coming to our ongoing projects, the Fluorination 1 is being commissioned, and we expect regular operations imminently. Our solvent project is progressing as scheduled and will be commissioned on time. The acid unit has also made significant progress, with manufacturing expected to begin in the next quarter or so. We are also advancing other expansion projects such as hydrogenation and nitration, which will be rolled out in phases starting the second quarter of FY 2025. Also, we are constructing a state-of-the-art research and development center in Savli, Vadodara, targeted for completion within the financial year. Our subsidiary, Deepak Chem Tech, is actively bolstering its workforce, recruiting adept professionals across project management, procurement and support domains. Deepak's substantial infusion of over INR 709 crore in DCPL underscores its steadfast financial backing for the subsidiary's flourishing journey ahead.
In FY 2024, several growth initiatives have come to fruition, and I'm thrilled to share some key developments occurring across the group. Deepak has commissioned production of its fluorination asset in Dahej. These developments strengthen Deepak's backward integration for crucial agrochemicals, enhancing the company's supply chain resilience, as well as being able to participate in various contract manufacturing opportunities because of the addition of fluorination in its technical competency basket. We will serve on supporting the domestic market first, underscoring the importance of meeting local needs and demands before expanding onto international markets. DNL's board has approved increasing of stake in Deepak Oman Industries to 51%, effectively making Deepak Oman a subsidiary of DNL. This strategic acquisition aligns with our goal of strengthening our market position and expanding our operational capabilities.
Further cementing this growth trajectory, Deepak Chem Tech signed two memorandums with the Gujarat government, totaling about INR 14,000 crore, which also, of course, includes a previous commitment we have made. To facilitate these projects, we're strengthening our balance sheet and maintaining favorable credit ratings. During FY 2024, we secured a long-term supply agreement with Petronet LNG to ensure a steady supply and mitigate project risks. Additionally, an ESOP plan has been approved by shareholders to reward performing employees and retain key talent, aligning their efforts with the company's long-term success. Lastly, the construction of our state-of-the-art R&D center progressed as well, which will allow us to enhance our ability to parallelly innovate for the entirety of Deepak Group. In conclusion, our dedication to improving operational efficiency and maximizing asset utilization has driven us to establish new production standards in critical intermediates.
India's flourishing economy presents global prospects for the chemical industry, and we are eager to be a cornerstone in creating this ecosystem for India's future as a chemical, as a global chemical player. The targeted investments, notably in the downstream phenol and acetone, in operational excellence and integration, as well as in specialty chemicals, we are positioned to seize these efforts, opportunities, guaranteeing growth, value, sustainability with a highly valuable right to win, well integrated into our strategy. I would now like to hand the call over to Mr. Sanjay Upadhyay, who will address this forum and take you through the financial performance and key updates during the period under review.
Thank you, Maulik. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining this call today. I'll walk you through the highlights of the financial results for the quarter and year-end data. In FY 2024, the global chemical industry grappled with significant headwinds, such as leaner inventory by customers, dumping and destocking by Chinese producers, pockets of geopolitical instability, and reduced consumption due to inflationary pressures. Despite these challenges, our company demonstrated resilience by focusing on retaining market share, in fact, growing also our market share, cost optimization, calibration of product mix, and strategic procurement of raw material. Importantly, the near-term volatility did not distract us from our medium-term and long-term objectives of de-risking our business model.
As a result, there has been considerable progress during the financial year on further solidifying our balance sheet, assured supply of critical inputs, waste management, and by-product optimization, as well as moving ahead of growth CapEx to enable value addition. At a backdrop of volatile raw material prices, increasing utility costs and impediments to logistics, Deepak Nitrite delivered a resilient performance in FY 2024, increasing market share, particularly in Phenolics, and driving overall revenue growth across segments. These operational efficiency translated into an impressive 23% return on ROCE, which has been maintained at a high level. Both business segments witnessed strong improvements, fueled by improved demand and product realization, contributing to robust consolidated revenue growth.
Coming to our financial performance, on the operating front, our domestic business revenue stood at INR 1,712 crore and INR 6,135 crores in Q4 and FY 2024, respectively. Export revenue was INR 414 crores in Q4 and INR 1,547 in FY 2024. On a consolidated level, domestic to export ratio stood at 80 - 20. In FY 2024, on a considered basis, revenue stood at, on a considered basis, revenue stood at INR 7,758 crore compared to INR 8,020 crore in FY 2023. EBITDA stood at INR 1,199 crores in FY 2024 compared to INR 1,337 crores in FY 2023. Margins were stable at 15% in FY 2024. PBT and PAT came at one thousand one hundred and two crores and eight hundred and eleven crores, respectively.
In Q4 FY 2024, on a consolidated basis, revenue came in at INR 2,145 crores as compared to INR 2,025 crores in Q3 FY 2024 on a QoQ basis. EBITDA came in at INR 320 crores from INR 318 crores in Q3 FY 2024. Margins moderated at 15%, higher raw material costs and other utilities, along with lower recovery of specialty products. PBT and PAT stood at INR 349 crores and INR 254 crores, respectively. The company's profitability mirrored its operational performance, influenced by a review triggered by inflationary pressures in raw materials and utilities. However, improvements are anticipated in the coming quarters. Basic and diluted EPS for Q4 FY 2024 stood at 18.61 per share, and that of FY 2024 was 59.45 per share.
In an update following the fire incident, the company received an insurance claim of INR 79.8 crore, which was recognized under exceptional item in the second quarter operating P&L for the year ended March 2024. I am pleased to share that ICRA has reaffirmed DNL's and subsidiaries' long-term rating at [ICRA] AA, and short-term rating at [ICRA] A1+ for the bank facility with positive outlook. Additionally, Deepak Chem Tech has been assigned long-term and short-term ratings of [ICRA] A and [ICRA] A2+, respectively, for bank facilities with a stable outlook. These ratings underscore our solid financial position and optimistic prospects. Moving to the segmental performance, in the advanced intermediates segment, revenue came in at INR 631 crore in Q4 FY 2024 versus INR 634 crore in Q3 FY 2024. While EBIT grew 43% year...
quarter-on-quarter at INR 134 crores during the quarter under review. In FY 2024, revenue came in at INR 2,074 crores. EBIT came in at INR 446 crores, translating into a margin of 16.4%, despite the current environment and challenging circumstances. Deepak Phenolics delivered encouraging performance, revenue grew at 9% quarter-on-quarter to INR 1,466 crores in Q4 FY 2024, versus INR 1,349 crores in Q3 FY 2024. While EBIT stood at INR 206 crores, higher by 15% quarter-on-quarter, an EBIT margin of 14% for the quarter.... In FY 2024, revenue was INR 5,003 crores and EBIT of INR 644 crores, translating a margin of 13%.
Our cash flow, our cash position remains sturdy, with net operating cash flow of INR 538 crores recorded in FY 2024, driven by improved working capital and operational gains. In investing activities, resources were allocated to diverse new projects, initiatives and essential materials. Meanwhile, financing activities involved disbursement of dividend, interest payment totaling INR 212 crores. Lastly, on the balance sheet front, company's financial position significantly enhanced, and the company continues to maintain a zero debt position with net worth of INR 4,822 crores on consolidated basis, thereby strengthening the balance sheet for the future expansion.
To ensure investments in CapEx plan, DNL invested INR 709 crore with fully owned subsidiaries, Deepak Chem Tech Limited, with INR 54 crore invested in Q4 FY 2024, while its total investment, Deepak Oman Industries, securing at INR 51 crore, 51% stake stands at 10 crore, including 11 crore Q4 FY 2024. Additionally, DNL has invested INR 5 crore in DPMP, that is, Deepak Projects Limited. During the year, DPL paid off long-term loans, achieving debt-free status with INR 306 crore in liquid investment. DPL implemented SAP in November 2023, followed by DCPL and DNL, enhancing the operational efficiency and aligning with industry standards. This synchronized integration ensures streamlined processes across all subsidiaries, optimizing performance and fostering collaboration.
Further, approved projects are progressing well as planned, including the construction of new specialty chemical plant for R&D units, innovative and new products, supporting the expansion of specialty chemical facilities. New plants will enhance autonomy in raw materials and increase profitability. A state-of-the-art R&D hub near Vadodara will strengthen our expertise and accelerate expansion efforts. Additionally, the company has implemented strategies to improve operational efficiency, including process optimization, yield enhancement, and reduction in power and waste consumption costs. DNL has also adopted product pricing to more rapidly transmit increasing input prices, resulting in improved margin performance despite fluctuation in profit, demonstrating a proactive approach to preserving profitability amid market challenges. With that, I will now request the moderator to open the floor for question and answer session, please.
Thank you very much. We'll now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question, may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you must press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The first question is from the line of Nirav Jimudia from Anvil Research. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity, sir, and congratulations on good third. I have two questions. The first is on the Advanced Intermediates business. So what portion of our raw material will be secured once the Backward Integration project starts operational? And when can we see the benefits of this Backward Integration project starts reflecting meaningfully in our operating profits?
Okay. So Nirav, thanks so much. First of all, dependence on this particular raw material is about 20%. Now, we are also increasing our capacity for the consumption of this product. Over the future, this might increase, and it will start to show a meaningful impact on our bottom line in the group, I'm saying, over I think the second half of the year. So maybe, you know, from mid-Q3 onwards, and then, you know, next year, full year, of course, after that, normalize. But we will continue to also keep investing consumption, and hence, we will have a great right to win in the products that we are already well entrenched in.
Got it. So this would again be extended towards newer CapExes, which we'll be doing, for which we already signed the MOU. So this is what you are trying to say on this particular raw material?
The MOU that we have signed in December and January of this financial FY 2024, aim with a significantly large consumption of these raw materials. But the capital investment for those has also been factored into what we have announced as our investment plan for the next three years. These investments are expected to be commissioned within this financial year and will have next year as a full year of operation. We will also be expanding in existing businesses. So what we have announced, you would be well aware, we don't really get into micro details-
Correct.
of capital investment that we put into existing products. But the strategic new investment for new products, those are the ones that we announce, and those will have a level of backward/forward integration as required.
Got it. I got it. So the second question is on the fluorination complex or the fluorination part, which we started operations on. So once those products are used for our captive consumption for the agro intermediate, which you have highlighted in our investor presentation. Does the market big enough for those products to be served, or we need to further create the downstream products to utilize these capacities?
There is already an existing market that can be served. We have, you know, a significant part of the-
Sir, sorry to interrupt you. We lost your audio in between.
Yeah. So while there is already an existing market that can in India also and in abroad also, that is available to Deepak, we don't need to go into development of new molecules. However, we have also consciously up-engineered part of the asset to be able to manufacture products which will be more contract manufacturing opportunities, maybe higher pressure, higher temperature, different kinds of throughputs and metallurgy, which would allow us to do these things as the opportunity presents while we are discussing with some strategic customers. So we will have this level of flexibility either to service you know intermediates which we are making in the whole plant, or to utilize a significant part of the plant for those and the rest of the plant for contract manufacturing.
Correct. So, sir, before this plant got started on, are we, we're importing those intermediates for our finished products, or was it available in the domestic market and we were getting those materials domestically?
I mean, we do both. On a centralized basis, we look at what is the best for our strategic growth. So we are happy to buy domestically and happy it's beneficial for stable prices and long-term views.
Sir, this, given two, three months of our operations in the fluorination space, how has been our experience in terms of running the plant, and how we are able to differentiate ourselves, given there are a lot of existing players also on the fluorination side? Thank you so much.
Okay, fair enough. So first of all, I'll be very candid. I'll say that we are not able to differentiate ourselves on fluorination. But heartening to know that within three months, based on the combined experience that has come into the company as well as our experience of operating, we believe that, we have very clear visibility towards being able to manage fluorination assets using HSE, like many of these players who have been in it for decades now. It is a matter of time, and right now, I believe that we are manufacturing what we are making, as well as anybody else in the world, even ones who have been in it for 15, 20 and 30 years. So that is a good start for us. We're not seeking to be the best, but our first aim is to be as good as.
As we grow our own confidence and our own talent pipeline, you can be rest assured that we'll apply the same filter we do for our core chemistry.
Got it, sir. Got it. Thank you so much, sir, and wish you all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Vivek Rajamani from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you so much for the presentation. Two questions from me. On the Advanced Intermediates, could you give us a bit more color from an FY 2025 perspective? How should we think about the pathway of recovery over the course of fiscal 2025 from a demand and pricing perspective? And you know, just maybe as an extension to that, given that you now have some of these backward integration facilities which will be coming through, do you think the fiscal 2023 earnings for Advanced Intermediates could be a good benchmark to look at for fiscal 2025? That was the first one. And the second question was with respect to your more medium-term CapEx plans.
On the larger INR 90 billion MOU, where you're targeting polycarbonates, MMA and the like, could you maybe give a bit more color in terms of maybe the timelines or funding plans, or maybe any color on what kind of capacities you'd be targeting? Thank you so much.
Okay. So on the first question, I'll give a perspective, and then I will request Mr. Upadhyay to also share his. And then of course, we can answer your second one, no problem. So on the first part, I think what ending up happening is that we are seeing the year divided into two. So the first half of the year, where we are seeing the volume-led improvement in most of the segments, except for some key ones like agrochemicals. And even there, it is not a uniform downturn, right? But there are certain regions which are more critically affected than other regions in terms of demand. So in the first half of the year, whether this is because of demand or overstocking or, you know, over dumping, whatever you want to call it, we expect that there will be some volatility.
The second half of the year will actually be characterized by more even improvement in the business outlook across industries, and it'll be further supported by the commissioning of many of these projects that will come on stream at various points. So I think that the second half of the year will be meaningfully better than the first half, because both of these factors would be different. So while I remain very optimistic about the kind of investments that we have made as they come on stream, we also start to see the situation improve. So if I was to look at the later part of the year, and whether that would correspond well with FY 2023, then I have a greater degree of confidence. Of course, you know, a lot of things can go right and wrong in the meanwhile.
But I think that the first half of the year continues to be something where one must be very conscious that the situation is still on an improving trend. I request Mr. Upadhyay also to share his perspectives on the same thing.
Yeah. Thanks, Maulik. See, I'll just share with you our products. The agro, around 30%-35% of our product goes in agro. Now, agro segment is not, it has not done well, but it's a good segment to be in. And we have certainly, certainly. I mean, we are seeing some signs of revival, but it has, Maulik rightly pointed out, in first quarter, and early second quarter also, we will find, agro is still weak as compared to other segments. So, revival will take place after maybe around mid of the second quarter. Other segments are performing steady performance, the dyes and pigments and textile, where we have around 20%, 20%. And other, home care and pharma is around 10%- 15%. So those things are doing well.
So in overall, if you see, there is a sign of revival, but destocking and everybody is actually now wondering that how long destocking continues, or whether volume come or stocking will stay away. But people, the prices were abnormally low in the last year, and there has to be a change in the prices. In fact, the volumes are going up. We are expanding our market share also. It's a matter of time once the prices start, realization starts going up, things will definitely, definitely change. So I, I personally feel that second quarter, mid of the second quarter or around end of the second quarter, things will start changing and improving. And we are, in fact, that way, because nitrite has a sound business model, where Phenolics is doing well.
Phenol products are finding applications, and the demands are also growing. Our team is performing extremely well in Phenolics. So overall, if you see the model, what we have is a phenol, pharma, textile dyes, and we have, textile and, dyes and pigments also. So it's a well spread, business model created, and it will balance out each other. So performance will certainly be resilient next year also. We are very confident.
You had a second question also about the timeline. I think there is a level of flexibility which we have alluded to before, but we have also categorically said that, you know, by and large, everything needs to be in line, online by mid-2027?
Around 2027 end.
Around 2027 end. So, you know, whether you do one group first or second group first, or whether you do them in a combined manner and things like that, that will all be on the basis of how well we are able to exploit the opportunities that are made available. We'll do it in a strategic manner, but as we have highlighted, right, you know, from, I think about two quarters or three quarters ago, there's a very clear end date, which is, you know, almost publicly available. These are the things that we need to get done within this period of time.
See, today, if you are referring to those announcements and things, we are actively working on technology discussions, because these are the products where we need a sound and very good technology, so that as you've seen how we have done well in phenol, you know. If you have good technology, if you have good understanding about the process design, it helps in a big way. phenol also, whatever dates were committed, we have commissioned the project on time. Here also, our endeavor is to start the production by, latest by 2028, 2029 beginning. So, and we have tied up our raw material also with the announcement of Petronet and you have also seen that. So things are progressing well. Our technology team is working very hard on this technology thing.
So, once those things are tied up, the projects will start, it will go at the ground level, you know. Before that, it needs a lot of discussions with the team. It needs a lot of discussion with the engineering people also. So those things are in progress currently.
I'll just add one point, that, yeah, it is characteristic of us to not go into a great level of detail. But while we are demurring on that, you can be rest assured that the quality of the conversations we're having in all of these things, including the technology, partnership and all that, is at an extremely advanced and at a crucial stage. So while we are doing that, we are also actively working on ensuring that our compounds, our products, which are not the intermediates, but which are finally formulated compounds for specific applications, are gaining significant traction and acceptance by international players already. So these things will also accelerate. Once we start manufacturing at hand, we will actually be solution providers rather than just suppliers of intermediate chemicals. I think these are strategic initiatives well on track.
Please keep in mind that when we give a strong commitment out, it is backed by everything kind of, including raw material supply, including timeline, including technology, partnership, customer acceptance, all of those things. Until those things have happened, we think that it's in the best interest of shareholders to not overcommit and under-deliver.
In fact, as a part of strategy, we are discussing on that. Let me tell you that we have started PC compounding. You must have seen that, you know. So that is actually a step taken to understand, because see, ultimately, these are all end-to-end, very well integrated projects, and all projects must deliver, you know. So if you have the PC compounding, where it consumes polycarbonate per se, if you have that, in a, in your captive industry, in a, where your polycarbonate is consumed domestically, locally, captively, that is a very big step I would say the company is taking. We are progressing well on PC compounding. In fact, some people must be wondering, what is this? But that is actually precisely the step we have taken for PC compounding.
You see, PC compounding also needs different applications, and there are different types of compounding, where some are common, which we had already started, where some are specialized applications. We need some technical support for specialized applications. So those things are progressing well, where we are talking to the various technology suppliers on this also. So those things are programmed. The CapEx will start on PC compounding at the earliest. That is the first CapEx to start, in fact. And then once that is established, parallelly we are working on pure PC and other products. So it's all integrated and well-planned execution of the entire, whatever in our investment what we have announced.
Sure, sir. Thank you both for the very detailed answers and all the awareness.
Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.
Yes, yes, sir.
Please stay connected. We have lost our management's line. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for your patience. We have the line for the management reconnected. Ankur, you may go ahead with your question, please.
Yeah, hi. Thank you for the opportunity. So, to start with, just one clarification. On the tech part, which you just highlighted, the technology for, you know, PC compounding and the specialized applications, large part of tech is in-house, or we are open to have a global tie-up, as well, when you were saying, you know, the work on tech, et cetera, is ongoing?
We are working on various options as well. It will be too premature or early to tell you anything about it, but yes, we are discussing with technology suppliers also. So in what way, which way we do that is a different thing, which we'll let you know at an appropriate time. But it's under very advanced and active discussion.
I think, rest assured, we will have significant updates on this question over the forthcoming quarters.
Sure, sure. And, and, just, in between, you did mention that, you know, the customer feedback, et cetera, is very positive on the products. That reference was towards the AI part of the business or towards the compounding part itself, wherein probably we would have already started some dialogue there?
The compounding.
Okay. That's helpful. Secondly, on the overall macro here, you know, we have been hearing a lot about China adding capacities in commodity chemicals and hence the pricing pressure. But at the same time, as you alluded, you know, pricing has stopped correcting further and probably is more stable now. If you could share your thoughts on, you know, the overall demand-supply balance, imbalance in the phenol acetone value chain globally.
See, globally, China is actually not supplying to the world. They have added facility, but it's largely integrated and backward, for captive only. There are some plants which are closed down also. Okay, so it is now today at a stage where it's balanced. No new capacity is coming up in the near future. Okay? And we are actually doing very well in domestic. If you see our market share and our... In fact, our whatever extra production is all going in the market. In fact, we are now today running at a full capacity, even more than that. You must have seen that. And our team is capable of actually further producing capacity expansion also.
...So those things are the, today there is no worry in the global market, as such, on the phenol product.
And I'll just add that there is investment also, there are new plants coming up in China. Most of them, however, seem to be also downstream integrated into this phenol, and largely seem to be targeting the captive, I mean, within China, consumption of the upstream as well as the downstream. But China normally has been a net importer, and over the last couple of years has stopped being a net importer. But that has very little to do with India's growth, which is not only in phenol, but also in the downstream of phenol that Deepak is getting into.
I think, we are confident that whether it is the existing capacity which will be debottlenecked further, or it is an expanded capacity, the opportunity for domestic consumption and growth remains significantly more than what, you know, in other geographies like China or Europe or anywhere else might see. So as being incumbent, I think we will have a good chance to succeed and continue to succeed in our investments.
Sure, that's helpful. And just lastly, you know, in that background, how has been the demand outlook or let's say, you know, the margin, et cetera, for you know, our AI portfolio there, whether it's DASDA or on the specialty chemicals part? You did highlight the slowdown in agro, but I was more keen on the overall business growth there, in terms of pricing correction or in terms of demand outlook.
Yes, thank you for not forgetting the AI part of it. But, in the Advanced Intermediates segment, I think there is a good volume-led recovery, which seems to be relatively sustainable and consistent when it comes to applications in dyes and pigments, in fuel additives, in glass, in home and personal care. And so these improvements are largely because, one, the situation has bottomed out, but the second is also that there is an improvement in demand and an improvement in expectation of this demand continuing. So our buyers are willing to consider... I mean, they're actively engaging with us, not just for, like, a short-term opportunity, but more consistently, you know, three months, six months, the quality of conversations that we used to have with them a couple of years ago, and that's great.
Of course, there will be pricing pressures when you're facing these kind of macroeconomic headwinds, but it's heartening to know that we are able to service this with our expanded capacity as well. Now, all of these things are good, but will hopefully get better as things normalize. In agrochemicals, it is somewhat the same, but maybe two quarters behind, because that's the kind of logjam that has been clogging up the system, whether it is at the shop floor level or whether at our customer's end, or whether it is at the shop level of our customer's customer, at the B2C level. So this kind of logjam, as well as this, you know, dumping of cheap intermediates in order to push the supply chains more, will start to even out.
We're starting to see some signs of that, but it will take a couple of quarters. As I have also alluded, that agrochemicals is not, you know, across the board, negative headwind. There are spots of it where, you know, things are marginally better than other spots. And, we're seeing that the situation will eventually come back to a normalized trend, but maybe in the second half of the year.
Okay, great. That's helpful. Thank you, and all the best.
Thank you. So I just want to also highlight one thing, that while we say that prices are soft right now and raw material prices are soft, you know, some of the key raw materials that Deepak buys, which are benzene, toluene, xylene, they are largely governed by artificial constraints that crude oil manufacturers put, right? And so hence, those prices, along with crude prices, remain range-bound at the high end, not actually reflective of the kind of demand that the world is seeing, but more reflective of the kind of supply constraints that are artificially being able to be applied. So while some of our raw material basket has certainly improved in its pricing position, a large part of it, especially ones linked to petrochemical, has not improved at the same level.
This is, I guess this is, a normal situation for anybody who buys these kinds of benzene, xylene, toluene, kinds of raw materials.
Sure. That's helpful. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Arun Prasath from Avendus Spark. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Good afternoon, Malik from Assembly. My first question is on the Phenolics supply side situation. We saw a couple of large plants started recently in the last year and early part of this year. So is the spreads, phenol spreads, sufficiently reflecting this new supply? And are they completely ramped up? And going forward, what kind of capacity is coming for the rest of 2024?
... No, I just answered that question. And, see, this new capacity is not fully absorbed. So the spread, what you are seeing is after all those capacities that had started in 2024, early 2024. Okay? And now what you will, you are finding is in some capacity in Japan is closed down also, when you are saying the capacity is added.
I think he's referring to the upstream or to phenol and acetone production itself.
The phenol and acetone itself.
Okay, fine.
So, this spread is after all these, capacity addition, as well as closing out of capacity, you know? And it is a, now today, it's a market where, no further additions are taking place, at least in the near future.
But I can also point out that the spreads in the last quarter have been some of the lowest that we have seen since we commenced operation. Just to give you an example, benzene is the raw material for phenol, and the price of benzene is the same as the price of phenol. So we buy the raw material, and we sell the finished product at the same price. It is as good as a negative margin as you can imagine. So the situation is seeming to improve. Whether it improves a little bit or it improves in a more meaningful way is yet to be seen, but quarter four did see some of the most suppressed spreads between RM and FG.
Right. And, Maulik, you also mentioned that, given that many Chinese capacities are integrated and, but obviously, the plans or capacities or companies which are supplying to China, they will have surplus, and either they need to shut down or need to dump elsewhere. So it affects our spreads also. So from that perspective, what happened to those suppliers? Have they shut the plant, or are they waiting for the spreads to rebound and start supplying to the rest of the world? What is your thought process on that?
So the easy answer gets compounded because of these issues like the geopolitical crisis and the Red Sea, which causes, you know, freight to spiral out of control. But generally, before anyone considers shutting down, they start by reducing the run rate of their plants. So most plants in this region are seeming to operate around the 60%-70% utilization. I think Deepak might be the only one which is pushing higher and higher and higher. I think now we're close to about 150%. But generally, when you operate at such a low capacity utilization, like 60%, 65%, 70%, your production also reflects that kind of inefficiency when, you know, the costing is done. And that further degrades the margin profile that many of these companies have to operate under. Some of these will fold.
For example, there have been recent announcements, both in, Japan as well as in Korea, of companies that are choosing to stop production in, fourth year or quarter or whatever it is. And somewhere where you will have some manufacturers who will say, "Okay, you know, we are making in three lines, now we will only make in two lines, and we will mothball the third line. Maybe the situation will improve over a period of time." So these are all geopolitical, geopolitically affected exigency. And how this will affect the crack is a difficult question to quantify, because generally, benzene prices are better governed by, not just, phenol, but a lot of other, downstreams, including things like styrene, including things like MDI, as well as, including things like gasoline demand, as well as upstream crude prices.
So there are many, many factors that govern the price of products like benzene and propylene. phenol and its downstream seem to be a minnow in terms of being able to dictate.
Right. Right. Understood. And, secondly, globally, the acetone prices are surprisingly holding strong, so probably that is also giving some support to the spreads. What is in your assessment is happening there in this market, especially now that there is surplus situation in the MDI side, so, and there are alternate routes also there for MDI. So what is happening in the acetone market?
So we supply to the Indian downstream application, right, of acetone as well as IPA. India does not manufacture methacrylates. So-
No, we are, but global acetone prices are influenced by these supply and demand at the global level. We are anyway derived. The prices are derived. We don't... Of course, I agree, volume is not affected, but prices get impacted by what's happening itself.
Correct. There are many routes to manufacturing methacrylates. Of course, acetone is one of the largest in terms of, the number of plants that are available there. So yes, there is, you know, a strong flow. That is generally the case when, you know, run rates are low for the, you know, for the first co-product, there is generally a firmness in the second co-product. And how this affects the downstream is, I feel, more for non-integrated players to worry about. As Deepak invests and it invests downstream, it will invest in, a level of integration which will allow it, like how we are right now doing with, you know, IPA. It'll allow it to remain flexible, whether, you know, to sell more of acetone or more of IPA....
This is the advantage of integration as well as knowledge about how to manage co-products.
All right. All right. Just finally, one bookkeeping question. The most of the CapEx that the assets we are building are already in the final stages. All the CapEx is done, or we have how much more is likely to go this year? Plus, for our MOU of INR 9,000 crore, is there any significant amount will go out in this year?
So we have nine thousand crore whatever we had announced, and that will go maybe towards the end of this year. Some portion will start, but out of earlier announcement, we are already completing around eighteen hundred to two thousand crores CapEx during the year. The results, annualized full results will be seen from the next year onwards, because some are starting in Q3, some are starting early Q4. So, those will be like our backward integration and this. It's starting in the second half of the year. So those things will, we'll see. I mean, if you have to really assess the possible, that full year will be the next year for all those things. From phenol, phenol downstream and our, the mega plant, as I earlier mentioned, we are working on technology.
You will see the investment, some investment in compounding, this year. We have already acquired a portion of land for compounding, in the process of acquiring rather. That you will definitely see this year, because that is the starting point of our global investment.
Thank you very much. Arun, I will request you to come back for a follow-up.
Sure.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Abhijit Akella from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good afternoon. Thank you so much for taking my questions. Just a couple... So one is on the Phenolics segment. This quarter we have seen about a 9%, quarter-on-quarter increase in revenues. Is that entirely volume driven? And, if so, can we expect this same level of capacity utilization to sustain, through fiscal 2025 going forward?
Yes, yes, I, I believe so. In fact, it can be little higher also, vice versa.
No, it is entirely volume driven. But, I think in the first quarter and the second quarter, while departmental activities continue to remain ongoing, I don't know what the schedule is now. I mean, every year we have some schedules that we keep in place with regards to, you know, shut down, clean up, restart, those things. I don't know whether that is in Q1 or Q2, but certainly we can come back to you on that front.
Okay, sure. No, that's helpful. Thank you. And the other one was on the Advanced Intermediates segment. If I adjust for this insurance benefit of about INR 80 crore, the margins seem to have compressed quite significantly, somewhere to about, you know, 9% or so, 8%-9%. So from the first half perspective, for next year, should we expect similar margins before they sort of start to come back towards mid-teen in the second half of the year? Is that how we should think about it?
No, yes, you're right that the exceptional item has played a role here. I don't know how you come to 8%-9%, because that is much, much under what I think we believe it is.
You are talking EBITDA margin. Which margin you are saying, Abhijit?
EBIT margin, Sanjay bhai. So, if I take this INR 134 crore EBIT and subtract INR 80 crore, I end up with about INR 50 crore -INR 55 crore or so, which implies about 8%.
Okay, let us come back to you on that point. But no, it is, it should not be 8%-9%. Anyways, the question that you are asking is about whether it is representative of the financial year in general, right? No, I would not say that it is representative of FY 2025. There have been challenges in Q4. Some of those, for example, were more regarding things like overdue payments and these things, which are not normal, not usual, which took place. I would prefer to say that I think, as I mentioned earlier, the first half of the year will be solved with, you know, marginal improvement, and the second of the half of the year will be substantially better, because also of our backward integration, forward integration, and expansion that will come online.
I know that you're asking a pointed question, it is very hard for me to unpeel it for you.
No, sure. I understand. Thanks, thanks for that. And just the last thing was on the CapEx outlook. So, fiscal 2024, we've shown about INR 700 odd crores of cash outflow towards CapEx on the cash flow statement. For fiscal 2025, so is there a number we can work with? I know we are capitalizing about INR 2,000 crores of investments, but in terms of cash outflows, how much could we expect for the year?
Okay. Cash outflow for the current year was around, somewhere around INR 800 crore -INR 900 crore. Next year it will be around INR 1,200 crores. I mean, the last year was INR 800 crore -INR 900 crores, this year it will be around INR 1,000 crore -INR 1,200 crore cash outflow. Most of the projects will be capitalized in the current year, except maybe one. ... So get the total, for this capacity.
EBIT excluding exceptional items in Q4 for the standalone was, I think, around 12%.
Okay. Okay, understood. Thank you so much, and wish you all the best, sir.
Thank you. Just one point to highlight that, you know, investment that Mr. Upadhyay mentioned, there may be an aspect to, you know, the last, at the tail end of the year, which may have some incurrence from the further growth, CapEx that we've announced. There may be some participation in that which is not included.
Thank you. We move on to the next question. Next question is from the line of Rohit Nagraj from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. So first question is again on advanced intermediates. This is the first time we have categorically mentioned about the Chinese dumping. So is it only the inventories which are getting you know destocked in the system, or there have been some capacities which have come and that are you know again giving some issues from our... I mean, we have been able to grow, but on a margins front those capacities are impacting the margin. So your thoughts on this? Thank you.
I'm just, I'm just thinking as you ask this question, Rohit. I don't, I don't think that there is any new capacity anywhere in the world that has been announced for most of the products that, the standalone company makes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that that is the case. However, there has been a stockpiling of many of these feedstock, many of these intermediates that are kind of getting unleashed over the last four quarters onto the global landscape. And partially, this has also been in order to, show that there is a production and sale, because the domestic market in China, which would otherwise have been, you know, significant, has, you know, played a little bit of a spoil sport. So as these things kind of get depleted, the situation of course improves.
We are seeing that, as I mentioned earlier, that there is a volume-led improvement. I do not believe that there are any plans for new investment to be announced in the same segments that the standalone entity Deepak Nitrite plays in. There may be some, you know, in the medium term, there may be some consolidation on the other hand, but other than some capacities in India, which have been either announced or commissioned, in China or in Europe, no.
Sure. That's helpful. Sir, second question again, apologies for hopping on, Phenolic. So, the Q4 performance, in terms of volume growth and the margins where they are, is it, can we take it as a, you know, quarterly performance in terms of the profitability for this segment for the next foreseeable future, unless we going for further debottlenecking or the margin situation further improves? Would that be a, reasonable assumption? Thank you.
Difficult to say, right? Because it is highly affected by feedstock prices and these things. But, you know, Q4, as we mentioned, was some of the worst that we have seen since we commissioned the plant. We are seeing that there is an improvement in the spread, crack, whatever you want to call it. But, I think the only thing that we can guide as of right now is that, this existing quarter and perhaps the next quarter, would be relatively reflective of Q4. We are working to debottleneck also, but, let's see when that bears fruition. Today, I think, Q4, Q1, Q2, by and large, one can look at it on an even keel.
Thanks for all the answers and the best of luck, sir. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rohan Gupta from Nuvama Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir, good evening, and thanks for the opportunity. So my first question is on the fluorination plant which we have just commissioned. Just wanted to have more views on that. You mentioned slightly, but just wanted to understand in fluorination, what are the product pipeline which we have, like apart from the salt, heat transfer salt, which you have mentioned, that how we plan to ramp it up? What are the customers' feedback on the initial basis, initial feedback on the product sampling which we have done? And what are the most core pipelines which are expected out of this plant in fluorination, whether forward integration or backward, over next one year?
It's a very good plant. You should come and see it.
So definitely we will seize that opportunity to see that. But I just wanted to understand the customers' feedback and product development and the sampling which we have been doing so far for that.
The customer feedback is positive. Deepak Nitrite also sells to select external customers. The product matches the global standards and specifications for impurities. I think from the product quality perspective, this was always flag on the ground, that that will not change. We have to match it, it's part of the hygiene factor. It allows us to participate in opportunities which we missed out earlier, even though we had significant competencies for things like nitration reduction, even things like chlorination and all that, because we did not have chlorination. Now, it will allow us to participate in many of these, right?
Tomorrow, for example, one of the reasons why we have high pressure, different, you know, metallurgy in half of our asset, is because it allows us to also engage tomorrow, for example, in something like a pyridine chlorination. I'm not saying that that is the target, but that's the kind of spread that we should be able to have. And this advanced metallurgy will also be able to operate on a campaign basis, separate to the rest of the asset, which may operate more on a consistent annual life. So we are actively engaged with customers and potential customers as we go these products with their help.
And any value
Sir, sorry, we are losing your audio.
Sorry. These will all start to see value in an intermittent manner over the next financial year.
Okay. Any product which has been approved or, I mean, that's what I was asking, trying to understand, that any product which has already been under the closer to the approval stage in the formulation, which requires this fluorination chemistry. I was looking for more from that approach leading to the approval from the customers and which can become a formula for us in near term.
Okay, I think you heard you're inaudible. But one is when we have engaged in the manufacture and formulation of, you know, products that go into the solar industry, the heat transfer salts.
Okay, nice.
But that is one segment, and, at the moment, that has nothing to do with, fluorination, although in the future it might. Today, this is for the heat transfer salt and is a formulation. On the other hand, you're talking about the fluorination asset as it was commissioned, and that manufactures products which are currently also being quoted by, you know, many of these, you know, CDMO companies, which are well-known, well-regarded, and they have accepted our products. And, you know, the purchase from them will be, more or less consistent. So we will also be making other products in the same assets, which will be, of a higher value, which may kind of replace the original product, or it may, add on to them. And those are also, approved.
But how we schedule them, how we, you know, develop our long-term agreements, those are all being, you know, negotiated and talked about with customers.
Okay. So the second question, in terms of the technology development on, especially on the PC side, and even you also mentioned some other products also, you are in talks with the multiple technology suppliers, globally. I said, just a little bit more clarification on this front. It's all related to the phenol chain, on which we are working and looking for the technology suppliers from globally, and it will be only on a technology front or we are also expecting some kind of capital infusion also from these players, going forward? What kind of arrangement we are seeking, or exploring right now?
Okay. First of all, aniline has nothing to do with phenol or acetone, right? And neither do the downstreams of aniline. So that is one thing to keep on the side, right? And we also have announced investments. We are also working on executing projects which will go into specialty chemicals, again, have very little to do with phenol. There will be products which will be made by Deepak Nitrite, Deepak Chem Tech, which may have phenol as a raw material, but which will have the kind of application and the margin profile and those things which are similar to Deepak Nitrite standalone. The polycarbonate manufacturing, along with the upstream all the way to phenol and the second phenol plant, those are the one place along with that, I think the methacrylates, which will have acetone as a consumption.
Those are the two products which are directly linked to the phenol value chain. But the customer profile and all of those things are also entirely different from the way that phenol is sold in India right now, which is likely largely to the chemicals, plywood, laminates, and pharma spaces.
So Rohan, I think you are. See, the technology, what we are saying is on phenol and phenol downstreams also, carbonate and this, we are discussing with them. Capital and this is, I mean, too early to talk like this. I mean, it's nowhere near in our mind also today, that capital from very. There are other technologies also on PC compounding, which needs a specialized technology and specialized recipes and all these things. Then we are working actively involving technology partners. So those details can be shared at an appropriate time, not today, because we are today, we ourselves are working on various options and projects.
So too premature to talk about this, but yes, we are discussing on technology with all these, because we have to see that, around INR 9,000 crore investment , whatever we announce, must come by 2027 and 2028, you know. That has to happen. So those things are, we are actively, actually pursuing and working on that. We'll come back on details later when, even when we ourselves are finalizing.
Okay, sir. That's very helpful. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, we will take that as the last question. I will now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you all for participating in Deepak Nitrite conf call. In case you have any further questions, queries, please get in touch with our investor relations team, Somsekhar Nanda and Gopal Thakkar. Thank you all once again.
Thank you very much. Have a great day.
Thank you very much. On behalf of IIFL Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.