AG Ventures Limited (BOM:506579)
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Q3 21/22

Feb 3, 2022

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited Q3 and Nine months FY 2022 Earnings Conference Call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka, Promoter and Joint Managing Director. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Good afternoon and a very warm welcome to everyone. Along with me, I have Mr. Anurag Jain, CFO, and SGA, our investor relations advisors. Before we begin, I hope you all and your families are safe and doing well in these unprecedented times. We have uploaded our results and investor presentation for the quarter and nine months ended 31st December 2021 on the stock exchanges and company website. Hope each one of you have had a chance to go through the same. After the second wave, there had been steady recovery in economic activities, supported by large vaccination drive in India with 1.5 billion shots by January 2022. Businesses started coming back to their normal levels.

However, the country witnessed a third wave of COVID with the onset of new Omicron variant, which has impacted some parts of the country and led to downtrend in demand across a few industries. Coming to the performance of the company, it was a challenging quarter with slowdown in demand in the domestic markets as well as international markets of Europe and Southeast Asia due to the impact of third wave and shortage of chips leading to reduction in vehicle production. Despite this, the company has recorded total income growth of 19% year-over-year for nine months FY 2022. Demand for Sulphuric acid has remained fairly stable during the third quarter.

Coming to the raw material front, the prices of our key raw materials and fuel have increased sharply due to inflationary trend and steep increase in commodity prices across the globe, and many other companies across sectors are facing the same issue. Further supply chain issues have led to increased expenses in terms of freight costs. High raw material prices along with freight costs have impacted our margins and profitability for the quarter. Our company is focused on improving its operational efficiencies on a regular basis and is taking every step to control costs. We will keep reviewing the situation and attempt to rationalize prices to cover the higher raw material costs depending on market environment. Freight cost for the quarter has increased by 125% over the September quarter of the year.

The raw material prices continue to increase even in the current quarter, negating any price increase which we were able to get. I'm happy to share that the company has commissioned its phase I of Insoluble Sulphur project with a capacity of 5,500 tons per annum at Dharuhera, Haryana on the 21st of December 2021. Our Sulphuric acid capacity has faced certain delays due to supplier issues and is expected to be commissioned by March 2022. The second phase of the expansion of Insoluble Sulphur shall be triggered based on the visibility of demand and market scenario. Our company has started a warehousing facility in the U.S. to be near to the market and prospective customers. This will enable the company to increase its market share in North America going forward. We intend to capture around 10%+ of market share in North America in the coming years.

The tire industry looks favorable with many tire manufacturers looking at capacity expansions over the next couple of years. Tire demand from the commercial vehicle industry has remained strong over the past few months on account of improved fleet utilization. We expect demand from replacement and export segment to be normalized, which should bode well for the tire industry. Our company believes in providing quality product, and in response to rising quality emphasis, the company works closely with customers to develop specialized products, widening its product range and strengthening its share of revenues derived from premium products. Our company possesses a deep proprietary insight into the manufacturing technology of Insoluble Sulphur that makes the company free from any kind of external dependence. We have established robust processes marked by high uptime, productivity and adaptability to different quality requirements.

To conclude, with the commissioning of our phase I of capacity expansion, we are optimistic of gaining new orders in the quarters to come. Outlook for the tire industry appears stable to moderately optimistic in light of the shift towards personal mobility and increased vehicle utilization. We are focused on our efforts to deliver sustainable and profitable long-term growth with our dominant position in the industry and proprietary manufacturing technology that we possess. The challenges of COVID-19 continue in India. However, we are cautiously optimistic of prospects of gaining customer orders on the back of long-standing relationships. Now I would like to hand over the line to Mr. Anurag Jain to update you on the financial performance of the company.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Thank you, Akshat. I will take you all through the standalone financials of the company. Total income for Q3 FY 2022 stood at INR 95.8 crores as compared to INR 109 crores in Q3 FY 2021. Stood at INR 100.9 crores in Q2 FY 2022. The revenues were impacted due to slowdown in demand in both domestic and international markets. EBITDA for Q3 FY 2022 stood at INR 19.7 crores as compared to INR 42.8 crores in Q3 FY 2021 and INR 24.3 crores in Q2 FY 2022. EBITDA margins for Q3 FY 2022 stood at 20.5%. Margins have been impacted due to sharp increase in raw material, fuel prices and freight costs.

Even though sales prices increase has been taken to meet the cost, prices of raw material have continued to increase. However, we are continuously taking measures to control costs and improve our efficiencies. Profit after tax for Q3 FY 2022 stood at INR 10.6 crores as compared to INR 28.4 crores in Q3 FY 2021 and stood at INR 12.6 crores in Q2 FY 2022. Our tax margins for Q3 FY 2022 stood at 11%. To quickly summarize the nine month numbers, total income for nine month FY 2022 stood at INR 283.1 crores as compared to INR 237.8 crores, a year-to-year growth of 19%. For nine months FY 2022, EBITDA stood at INR 66.8 crores as compared to INR 85.3 crores.

Margins for nine months stood at 23.6%. Profit after tax for nine months FY 2022 stood at INR 35.6 crores as compared to INR 50.2 crores. Margins for nine months stood at 12.6%. With this, I would like to open the floor for questions and answers.

Operator

Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Limited. Please go ahead.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yeah, thank you and thanks for the opportunity. My first question is on the revenue part. Revenue decline on YoY is primarily led by volumes or that is led by realizations?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Realization was revenue decline for the quarter ended December was primarily on account of volume.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

On account of volumes?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Okay.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Sir, I know, sir, we don't share the utilization figure, but as a ballpark figure, what is the current capacity utilization figure as compared to the similar quarter in the last financial year? Just a ballpark figure, sir, to understand.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I can tell you that for nine months, our capacity utilization is around 80%.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

80%. Okay. How much, sir, we can ramp- up this to around 90%-95% at peak levels?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes, it can be ramped- up to 100%.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, second, on the 5,500 tons per annum expansion which we have completed, so how much is the revenue potential which we can generate from this?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The revenue potential would be around INR 70 crore for Insoluble Sulphur.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

INR 70 crores. Sir, how much would be the revenue potential from Sulphuric acid?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

See, Sulphuric acid revenue potential is a very tricky thing because, Sulphuric acid sells at raw material plus. Currently, the revenues are higher, but it may go down. I would say that it's between INR 25 crore-INR 35 crore.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. If I add both these things, 70 + 30, that is somewhere around INR 100 crore-INR 110 crore. For phase one, we had done INR 150 crore CapEx. The asset utilization is quite low, like as compared to our history also wherein we had at least logged 0.9x-1x [asset turn]. That is quite below that also. How you see these things now shape- up?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

See, the asset utilization normally for this kind of IS is low for IS. The reason that is low is the reason for which we require higher EBITDA margins. That is what justifies the higher EBITDA margin in short.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, the third question now, since the second phase is put on hold, now how you see the growth triggers? What are the growth triggers like you see and how you see OCCL like for the next five years? Because apart from phase one, now phase II is also put on hold. Now what is next for the company which we-?

Speaker 9

This is for Oriental Carbon, right?

Operator

The conference is now being recorded.

Speaker 9

Raw material pricing since last quarter. I think you mentioned that we continue to see increases. Linked to that, when we are talking, what is the pricing environment, are we being able to pass through all cost increases? Which means raw material as well as freight or only part of it? Just some clarity on that.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What is happening is that, you know, we are getting raw material price increases equal to somewhat of raw material, but then raw material prices increases again. That is the situation we are facing. As far as freight is concerned, that is not being completely absorbed by the customers because you will have other suppliers in other geographical areas which will be supplying locally. They will not be impacted so much by freight. That is one component which is not being absorbed by the price increases completely.

Speaker 9

Have our freight costs remained stable today as compared to third quarter? Or have they continued to increase?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

They're stable. They are stable now.

Speaker 9

Okay. That's it from my side. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Participants, if you have any questions, please enter star and one. The next question is from the line of Manan Jain, Individual Investor. Please go ahead.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Hello. Hi, good afternoon. I would like to discuss about the warehousing facility that you talked about in the opening remarks. Have we rented out this facility, or have we bought it in the U.S.?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, it's a tie-up. It's not. We've not bought it.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay. It's a tie-up. How much inventory? It has been started. Have you started keeping inventory over there in the warehouse?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It depends from customer to customer. This is an infrastructure that has been set up so we can service the customers better. The amount of inventory and all will keep fluctuating.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay. I see. Okay. How much inventory do we initially plan on keeping there? Like, is there a plan or something?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Sorry? We can't hear you very well.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Can you hear me now?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, no, not audible.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Am I audible now?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No.

Operator

Yes. Actually, we are able to hear this participant. Management members, we'll just connect you back. Just give me a moment.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I think the whole line has gone. There's some issue.

Operator

This is the operator. We have the line for management reconnected, so you may please proceed.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah. We hear you.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay. Yeah. Am I audible now to you? Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes, you are.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Yeah. Okay. How much inventory do we plan on keeping in the warehousing facility in the initial phases? Like, is there any plan about that? Like we'll keep, for example, INR 10 crore or so worth of inventory over there.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, sir. There is no fixed plan like that.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

The new facility that you're setting up, the new CapEx plan. Our plan for getting sales in that plant is through North America primarily or through the Indian markets per se?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The important growth markets to fill up the new capacity.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay. My next question would be about the pricing renegotiation. Rates have become fairly stable for a while now. Have we been able to incorporate these trade costs and the raw material costs in our renegotiated prices with the customers in January as we were due for a renegotiation during January?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I think I've answered this. I have answered this question. To the previous participant. The answer remains the same. That we, though we did take some increases in raw material costs, due to raw material costs, but the raw material costs have further increased. Freight costs is something which cannot be totally passed on because there are competitors who are sitting in those geographical areas for whom freight cost is not a big component. That is something which we have had to absorb.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Understood. Okay. Understood. When do we expect the optimum capacity utilization for our phase I CapEx?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Probably next year.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

All right. Would we reevaluate, you know, consider our phase two in the next year or this year itself?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, we will keep re-reviewing that situation every few months. It'll be dynamic. You know, it can be done. It can be triggered sooner as well.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Oh, okay. Understood. What do you think about demand in general? Do you think it has, like, moved as far as. In general, will the demand be better going forward the next two-three years in Insoluble Sulphur as the market bottomed out or something?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I think so. I think the last two-three years have been very tough from a demand point of view. In 2019, we had the global auto slowdown. 2020 and 2021 were affected by COVID and chip shortage. As these things ease out, I think that the demand should only improve going forward.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay, great. I hope so too. Thank you very much. All the best.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nikhil from SiMPL. Please go ahead.

Speaker 12

Hello. Good afternoon. Am I audible?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Speaker 12

Yeah. Hi, thanks for the opportunity. Is there any new plant which is coming up, new capacity, anything which you are hearing, if it is?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No.

Speaker 12

[crosstalk]

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We do not have knowledge of any new plant coming up as of now.

Speaker 12

Okay. With respect to this China Sunsine capacity, is it like completely absorbed in the Chinese market, or are you seeing any aggressive pricing on the export side also from there or how is the scenario playing out?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, Chinese people are as they were. We are not seeing any additional aggression from them. Obviously, they are also hit by raw material, and they are trying to, in our opinion also, you know, pass on the raw material costs. There is no additional step- up that we are observing in the market as of now from China.

Speaker 12

Okay. Sir, you mentioned that even in last quarter call, you had mentioned that the freight cost is basically hitting us and that is causing the pain on the margins. As a percentage, what would be freight cost for us? Like, is it like what was it earlier and what has it become now? Is it like from 2% it's almost 6%-7% of sales or?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No. Freight cost is for us because we are primarily exporters. The freight cost for us has traditionally been around 6.6%-7% traditionally.

Speaker 12

Okay. In current trends, where it would be? Because you said we are absorbing a lot of the freight costs.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No. It's traditionally not in current trend.

Speaker 12

Yeah. Currently it would be like +10%-+11%?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah. Currently it would be around maybe 10% or thereabouts.

Speaker 12

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

For the quarter it has been in fact about 12.5%-13%. Yeah.

Speaker 12

Okay. One last question, sir. This, you mentioned even in last quarter call and even this quarter call you mentioned that in markets like Europe, we have to absorb the freight cost because the capacities there or the competitors there don't have the burden of freight costs. What I'm trying to understand is, so is it like because the demand itself is also very bad, and the existing plants are able to sufficiently meet the demand, that's why we are not able to like push our volumes? Or how have you lost any market share on volumes in those markets?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

See, we are supplying or catering to those plants that we have been supplying or catering to. We are asking them and getting increases for raw material and other things are concerned. As far as rate is concerned, you cannot be way out of the market. If tomorrow the price is, for example, in Europe is X, you cannot go to your tire customers and say, "Okay, you can buy from them, but mine will be X into two." Right? There has to be some semblance of price to maintain relationship with your long-term relationship with your tire companies.

Speaker 12

Okay. This similar situation will hamper us even in U.S. market, right? When we are trying to gain volumes in the near term, probably.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah, yeah. You're absolutely right. There is a similar situation in U.S. as well.

Speaker 12

Okay, fine. Fine, I'll come back to that to you. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Umang Shah from Saras Capital AIS. Please go ahead.

Speaker 11

Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, if you could tell us, for what percentage of the revenues would you be a primary supplier to the tire company, and for what percentage would you be a secondary supplier?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I mean, most of it, more than 95% is to tire companies. Rather more than 97% is to tire companies.

Speaker 11

I was asking, you know, in some cases, you would be the second supplier while the first supplier is the market leader. In which company and how much percentage would you be the first supplier?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Now, that is something which is difficult to say. I would say that, you know, if you look at my total sales.

Speaker 11

Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Just give me a moment. More than two-third of the material that we supply are to the companies where we are primary suppliers.

Speaker 11

Can you repeat the statement, sir?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

About two-thirds of the material that we supply are to the companies where we are primary suppliers.

Speaker 11

Oh, that is great to hear, sir. Sir, the second question was, sir, do you see any difference in the competitive behavior by each plant post their acquisition by One Rock?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, I think they only closed the transaction in November, December, and we are yet to see any change in behavior in the market.

Speaker 11

Right. Right, sir. This is very helpful. Sir, the last question is, the CCI today fined the bunch of tire companies for the behavior that they have had since quite some time. Do we as their suppliers get affected by it?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

You mean us?

Speaker 11

As in, like, this behavior has led to pricing pressure for you in the past. Just wanted to understand the historical context.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, we would not like to comment on this matter, please.

Speaker 11

No problem. Thank you so much.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of [Sridhar] from PhillipCapital. Please go ahead.

Speaker 10

Yeah, good afternoon, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. My first question is, so by when we can expect, you know, our margins to get back to the original level of let's say 30%-31%?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We are hoping that once the freight rates normalize and the raw material prices, you know, they also come to normal levels, so then we can be hopeful of attaining our margins.

Speaker 10

This will take another one or two quarters, sir, would you believe?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's very early to say, you know, which exact quarter or which exact month these things will normalize at. I think we have analyzed our margins over the last five, six, seven, 10 years. We've been consistently achieving a certain number, and we are confident of going back to that number and in line with the long-term guidance that we've always shared of roughly 30% EBITDA margins. Whether it happens in six months from now, or it takes 12 months, or it happens in three months, I think it would just be conjecture at this stage. The overall story is still intact. We still maintain that 30% EBITDA margins are sustainable in our business in the long- term.

Speaker 10

Okay. Sir, how much raw material costs have gone up in last few months or maybe year- to- date?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Just to add one more point, if you remember last year, our EBITDA margins were at some point even up to 40%.

Speaker 10

Yes. Yes. Right.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

At that point also we said that this is an aberration, let's stick to 30%. That average 30% story is still intact. Sorry, what was your question?

Speaker 10

Sir, my question was, how much raw material costs have gone up in last few months or maybe year- to- date?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Anurag, want to come to this?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

If you look at the raw material cost and you compare it with last year, it has gone up by about 60% from the same quarter last year.

Speaker 10

Same quarter, okay. Q3 FY 2021 to Q3 FY 2022.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Speaker 10

Sir, how much we have passed on?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Now that is something. I mean, we have been talking with our customers. I would say that of the increase, we have been able to pass on about 60% of the increase in raw material cost. What happens is, you know, as I told you earlier also, that once you get an increase, then during the quarter the prices increase again. If you look at the quarterly numbers, that is the thing.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

What is the lag impact? Is it one month or is it a quarter, on a quarterly basis?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Basically, quarter or six months is what our mostly cost-price contracts are.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. What is the typical inventory days which you hold for raw material?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Sorry?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

The inventory days, which you hold for raw materials.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Inventory days for raw material would be typically from 15 days to 30 days, depending on this thing. Currently, since the prices are increasing, we are running at a slightly higher inventory, but normally it would be around 15 days.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, just last one thing. When you say that, you know, our, the first phase of the capacity expansion, we will be running at full capacity by next year. You mean for FY 2023 we will be running at full capacity or by, maybe by Q4 FY 2023 we would be running at full capacity?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What we mean is that, and we didn't say full capacity. The question was when will our capacity utilizations increase and improve to optimum levels?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yes, yes.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

That will happen in the calendar year 2023.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay, calendar year. Okay, okay. Got your point, sir. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shikhar Mundra from Vivog Commercial. Please go ahead.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

How much of Sulphuric Acid is like captively consumed out of the 88,000 metric tons?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

88.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Nothing is captively consumed, all sold in the market.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

What are the major raw materials which go into making the Insoluble Sulphur?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Basically the two major raw materials are sulphur and oil, coating oil.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

What is the margin improvements which we are estimating due to saving on fixed costs once this new capacity comes on stream, like?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Sorry, please repeat your question.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Is there any margin improvement on saving on fixed costs once this new capacity comes on stream?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's all baked into our long-term guidance of roughly 30% EBITDA.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Okay. All right. What's the revenue potential? I missed the part of the revenue potential of the new facilities.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

See, revenue potential for the Insoluble Sulphur plant would be around INR 70 crore.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

For the 5500 ?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Is that it? Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

You're welcome.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Umang Shah from Saras Capital AIS. Please go ahead.

Speaker 11

Hi, sir. Thank you for taking my question. Again, sir, just one question. Of the total raw material cost, how much percentage would be sulphur and how much would be naphthenic oil?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We will rather not, you know, go into such details, please.

Speaker 11

Oh, no problem. Any rough ballpark also would be helpful, but if you're not okay sharing it, that's okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah. Normally I would say that, you know, my product consists of an average of 75% of a ton, out of a ton of 750 kg sulphur. That is the ballpark I think.

Speaker 11

Oh, okay. No, that's great. That's very helpful.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

That's no biggie.

Speaker 11

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Samarth Singh from TPF Capital. Please go ahead.

Samarth Singh
Founder and CIO, TPF Capital

Thanks for the follow-up. Just one question. Was there any cost in this quarter in the P&L for commissioning of the new capacity?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Commission, the cost for commissioning will always be capitalized, right? There is no such cost here.

Samarth Singh
Founder and CIO, TPF Capital

All right. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Limited. Please go ahead.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yeah. Thank you, sir, for the follow-up. Sir, my question is on the freight cost. Again, like, as said by sir, that freight cost in this quarter is around 12%-13%. Just wanted to understand. In this quarter, our EBITDA was INR 21 crores. Considering if I take the similar quarter of the last financial year, there is a difference of INR 6 crores in the freight cost. Suppose if I add 21 + 6 crores, if the freight cost is normalized, our actual EBITDA margins would have been around 26%-27%. Is this understanding correct, sir?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Correct.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay, sir, are we witnessing some normalization in freight cost or it is still at an elevated levels only?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What we have witnessed is some stabilization. They have stopped increasing and there has been marginal decreases in some sectors, but they are still at elevated levels.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. For the coming quarter, so that would still remain at higher levels then. Okay. Sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

For the coming quarter.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, second question. Sir, you had said that so we are planning to capture 10% of the market share in North America. What is the market size in North America today? How are you also witnessing the China market also? That was also our focused market. If you can help us understand more here.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The North America market size is roughly 40,000 metric tons.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

40,000 metric tons. Okay. 4,000 we are targeting in the next coming year. What is the current market share, sir, if you can?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We did not say coming year. This is our eventual plan to help us around the capacities.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. What would be the current market share, sir, today?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I'd rather not share that exact figure.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, how you look at the China market? That was also one of our focused markets. How is that shaping up now?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

China market is not our focus area anymore.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's a competitive market, and especially after COVID, there is a lot of complications over there. We are focusing on other areas.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, just one last question, sir. From where we are taking the coating oil and sulphur from?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We have refineries in North as well as in Gujarat. We are buying from, mainly buying from these refineries.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Coating oil we have, international as well as domestic suppliers. There are people who are refining oil and then we have big refineries and then we have some international suppliers. A mix, mixture of that.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, if you can share the split of coating oil, so how much we are taking from domestic and imports? Just a short idea of ballpark only, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, no idea.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

From imports and from domestic.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

All I can say is majority of the oil is from India. That is what I can tell you.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Thank you, sir. Okay.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Manan Jain, Individual Investor. Please go ahead.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Hello. Thanks for the follow-up. I just wanted to confirm what is the expected incremental EBITDA from phase I CapEx?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I think, so EBITDA we are talking about in terms of percentage of turnover, and the guidance is that should, it would be 30% of the turnover. 30%.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay. On an overall level.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah.

Manan Jain
Shareholder, Private Investor

Okay. Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ajinkya Jadhav from Premium Brokers. Please go ahead.

Ajinkya Jadhav
Analyst, Premium Insurance Brokers

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. I have just one question. What is our R&D spend as a percentage of sales?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

R&D spend as a percentage. I will get back to you with the numbers later. I don't have them in front of me just now.

Ajinkya Jadhav
Analyst, Premium Insurance Brokers

Okay. Can you share anything on the chemistry and like, are we modifying the Insoluble Sulphur or like do we modify, do we innovate in terms of, you can say, specialty kind of a type of offering or is it the same product that we were offering for the last five, 10 years?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

you know, we have R&D and process research, and improving the quality of our product is a continuous process which we are doing on a continuous level, and obviously year on year the product specifications keep on increasing.

Ajinkya Jadhav
Analyst, Premium Insurance Brokers

Okay. Thank you, sir. That's it from my end.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of [Sridhar] from PhillipCapital. Please go ahead.

Speaker 10

Yes, sir. Thanks for the follow-up, sir. Sir, do we have any long-term contract sourcing for the sulphur or coating oil?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No. These are, as you know, highly commoditized. Sulphur is a byproduct and so is oil, you know, so much dependent on other things that though we have quarterly contracts in coating oil, but for sulphur there are no contracts. It's always a spot buy.

Speaker 10

We buy 100% coating oil under quarterly contract or we also buy some on the spot basis?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's a mixture of both.

Speaker 10

Pardon, sir?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's a mixture of both.

Speaker 10

Okay. Okay. Sir, you said that 75 kg of sulphur is required to produce 1 ton of Insoluble Sulphur, right? Am I right?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

At an average. Let me clarify that.

Speaker 10

Okay. Got your point. Sir, how is the current, you know, demand supply situation of Insoluble Sulphur globally?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Currently obviously, Insoluble Sulphur consumption is dependent on the tire companies and we are seeing some subdued demand because of the reasons mentioned earlier also, mainly COVID-related. There is some subdued demand as of now.

Speaker 10

Okay. It is fairly balanced in terms of demand supply?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Sorry?

Speaker 10

Is it a fairly balance between demand and supply or it's just that, you know, supply is much higher than the demand?

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Supply is much higher than demand.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I would say supply is higher than demand, but it would be in the range of 80%-85%. That is how it is.

Speaker 10

Okay. Thank you so much, sir.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shikhar Mundra from Vivog Commercial. Please go ahead.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Yeah, just a follow-up question on Sulphuric Acid, like, what's the revenue potential for the 88,000?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

See 88,000, again, you know, this is what creates the confusion. 88,000 is the increased capacity, right?

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Right.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Not the increase in capacity. That is the total capacity.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Yeah, total capacity. What's the revenue?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It is very hazardous to give a revenue potential on that because the prices vary very, very drastically.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

For Sulphuric acid. For example, INR 6,000 per metric ton to INR 10,000 per metric ton.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Right? At lower end, 6,000 into 88,000, at higher end, 10,000 into 88,000.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

All right. What's the CapEx you have put in for the incremental capacity of 46,000?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The CapEx is around INR 33 crores-INR 34 crores.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

I was just trying to, you know, understand the ballpark return ratio for the Sulphuric acid plant because it's like a, but Sulphuric acid is basically a commodity. I was just wanting to understand the rationale, you know, behind expanding.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

If you have followed the this thing, we are not putting Sulphuric acid for commercial reasons for selling it. It's because we get steam from it to be consumed in our IS plants. We had a Sulphur-Sulphuric acid plant which was catering to two lines of insoluble Sulphur. Now, since we are putting another two lines, we have put an additional Sulphuric acid plant from where we get steam for our Sulphuric acid plants, and that is where we get the payback.

Shikhar Mundra
Director, Vivog Commercial

Okay. Got it. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. With this, I now hand the conference over to management for closing comments.

Akshat Goenka
Promoter and Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I take this opportunity to thank everyone for joining on the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly reach out to us or SGA, our investor relations advisors. Thank you once again.

Operator

Thank you. On behalf of Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.

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