Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q1 FY22 earnings conference call of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company that are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then 0 on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka, promoter and Joint Managing Director of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited.
Thank you, over to you, Mr. Goenka.
Good afternoon and a very warm welcome to everyone. Along with me, I have Mr. Anurag Jain, CFO and SGA, our investor relations advisors. Before we begin, I hope you and your loved ones are safe. We have uploaded our results and investor presentation for the quarter on the stock exchanges and company website. Hope each one of you have had a chance to go through this. Quarter one FY 2022 was a challenging quarter with the onset of the second wave of COVID-19. We saw the demand slowing down in both domestic and global markets. There was substantial slowdown during the months of April and May due to lockdown restrictions of varying degrees across different regions. The entire auto industry faced challenges on the back of demand disruption. OEM demand was also hit with many automotive companies shutting down their factories wholly.
On account of second wave, we witnessed more localized and micro-lockdowns and restrictions imposed rather than nationwide lockdown. Despite these headwinds, we have reported total income of INR 86.5 crore with an EBITDA of INR 22.8 crore and PAT of INR 12.4 crore for quarter one FY 2022. Raw material prices have continued their existing trend in quarter one FY 2022 as we had communicated during the last quarter. However, we feel that now they have peaked. The spike in raw material prices have impacted our margins as the pass through generally happen to a lag of three-six months. However, with our continuous initiatives towards controlling costs and focused efforts on improving operational efficiency, we have managed to limit the impact on EBITDA. Now I would like to update you on our operations. Manufacturing facilities continued to operate normally at both our plants.
We took all necessary precautions while ensuring safety and wellbeing of all our employees. The company has also organized vaccination for all employees and their family members. Coming to our expansion project, we faced delays due to logistical challenges created by the onset of the second wave. The phase I of 5,500 tons per annum insoluble sulphur line and 42,000 tons per annum sulphuric acid line at Dharuhera is now expected to be commissioned by October. I would also like to inform all shareholders that the board has approved a revised dividend policy which is available on the website of the company. This is a very good and very liberalized policy which states our intention of paying close to 50% of profit after tax out as dividends.
This again underlines our commitment to all shareholders and reinforces what we have been saying over the last years, that we will reward shareholders. Our company believes in addressing the requirements of the customers. Our company strengthens the business of its customers through the development of customized grades, possibly the widest global range. We intend to continue to deepen our relationships with customers, strengthening our wallet share. The demand situation is also robust and it has picked up. There are some effects due to COVID-19 maybe in Russia and Far East Asia, but by and large demand is now robust. Our company has always given utmost importance to research. Our company's objective is to enhance product quality and performance. In order to achieve it, our company has made investments in a new R&D lab and setup which will be commissioned in this year as well.
Our company is also constantly committed to investing in ESG aspects, strengthening its resolve to compliance, environmental integrity, talent management, ecosystem management in terms of vendors, customers and stakeholders. Our subsidiary business has also started performing well. However, their operations were also impacted on account of the second wave of COVID-19. Our company has remained competitive across various business cycles, growing through every downturn. The result is that our company has emerged as one of the most renowned insoluble sulphur players across the world. The business environment continues to be a bit uncertain due to the predicted third wave. However, we are well-equipped to navigate the near-term challenges based on our learning of last year and are confident that the strength of our manufacturing will continue to drive our business relationships and growth.
We are optimistic that when the market turns to an even balance, companies like us who have invested in larger capacity at a competitive cost will be at the right place to capitalize in future. Now I would like to hand over the line to Mr. Anurag Jain to update you on the financial performance of the company.
Thank you, Akshat. I will take you all through the standalone financials of the company. Profit income for Q1 FY2022 stood at INR 86.5 crore as compared to INR 46.9 crore in Q1 FY2021, a year-on-year growth of 84%. Income for Q4 FY2021 was INR 106.9 crore. High year-on-year growth is on account of low base of last year. However, demand was impacted in local and global markets in Q1 on account of second wave of COVID-19.
EBITDA for Q1 FY 2022 stood at INR 22.8 crore as compared to INR 9 crore in Q1 FY 2021, a growth of 154% year-on-year, and EBITDA for Q4 FY 2021 was INR 58.7 crore. EBITDA margins for Q1 FY 2022 were at 26.4%. Margins have been impacted due to increase in input costs, whereas price pass through usually happens with a lag of a quarter or six months. Profit after tax for Q1 FY 2022 stood at INR 12.4 crore as compared to INR 1.4 crore in Q1 FY 2021, and INR 24.8 crore in Q4 FY 2021. Our PAT margins for Q1 FY 2022 stood at 14.4%. With this, I would like to open the floor for question and answers.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question, may press star one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star two. Participants are requested to use handles while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue is tending. The first question is from the line of Viraj Kacharia from Securities Investment. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. I just have two, three questions. First is on the capital allocation policy. In the last call, you mentioned that you'll be looking to invest up to 20% of net worth in other investment portfolio. Is there any update or any rethink on that? When you say dividend policy is now being made stabilized, is 50% payout a base payout or it can vary? Because when you say up to 50%, it can be from, say, 5%, 10% to. Just want to get a perspective on this.
I think both these aspects are very nicely covered in the note that is available on our website. What I can say is that we've traditionally been paying out 20%, and now the intent is to pay out 50%, subject to the free cash flow being available. We have not written 50% just for writing it. It is also because we hope and expect to be paying out something close to that. As far as the investments is concerned, I think, we've got a nice note there as to how we plan to utilize retained earnings, and it's quite clear over there.
Okay. If we look at our vision, as we put it out in the annual report, and which we have communicated repeatedly, is to be present in every tire of the world, right? I would like to really congratulate the promoters, the top management on the stellar operating performance, prudent and sound capital allocation. They have been making consistently, single-mindedly to achieve this vision. As a shareholder or a long-term investor, it's a little perplexing and also you feel disadvantaged, given that you will still look to pursue the investment. The question here is that, are we still a chemical company focused on achieving that stated vision or we are now a holding company having a business from manufacturing of rubber chemicals to managing a wide set of portfolio investments? An area which in the latter part we don't have any expertise per se.
If the interest of the promoters per se is to really pursue the latter part, then why not just share the maximum cash, surplus cash we have to minority shareholders via much higher payout or buyback every year so that even we get an equal opportunity to decide what's best use we bid for the cash. Just a feedback we are sharing because on the business side, we have done a phenomenal job in terms of having that focus and vision, and we are on route to achieving that. Just on the capital allocation, it just feels minority shareholders are significantly disadvantaged.
I think let me answer your question in two parts. Firstly, pretty much all the future free cash flow we are saying we are going to pay out as dividend. That's one part because when we say 50% of PAT, that basically is very close to a majority of the free cash flow that will be generated after removing money required to repay loans and CapEx and all those things. Second, the corpus that is here, it's good to maintain optionality. We may have acquisition opportunities. We may have other diversification, JVs. For those kinds of things, we need to retain some cash on the books. That is the reason we are not paying out the cash that is there, but most of the future cash flow is going to be paid out as dividend.
Basically, my question here is not about having a surplus cash in the balance sheet. That's okay since you're looking at opportunities which may come at certain time in the future. The question is largely in terms of the quality of those investments which we are making, either in terms of AIF or startups and IPOs and all that. Wouldn't one find it more prudent we parking that surplus cash, say a bond or a debt mutual fund or fixed deposit or in a bank account, which ensures that the money stays intact 100%, for us to make best use of it in the future.
I think this is being governed by a committee and the board. The board is also directly supervising it. There is no right or wrong answer to this. I think this is more a philosophical discussion. What you are saying is also right. What someone else is saying is also right. What the board and all are doing in their wisdom is also right. I think this is a matter of perception.
Okay. The second question is on the other expenses. If you see Q-on-Q , we've seen a drop in sales. Other expenses we've not seen a drop or sale. Is there any runoff in this or how should we understand this? Utilization would have been also lower.
When you say other expenses, you are comparing with which quarter, please?
Q1 quarter-on-quarter.
Q1 to Q1. Okay. In Q1, in June, most of the senior members had taken salary cuts. There was no increment. Salary cuts were there. In this quarter, salary has been restored and there has been some increments this year. There's a substantial difference because of that. The major difference is that other expenses also include power and fuel, packing and freight, which has more than doubled or nearly doubled from last quarter because of the quantity which has been sold. These are the two major reasons why other expenses have increased. Otherwise, the baseline other expenses are not increasing.
Okay. Going forward, as the utilization improve and the volumes pick up, this will be the base expenses, right? You won't see a similar increase in-
If the volumes pick up, obviously freight will go up, power and fuel will go up, packing expenses will go up. Other expenses will go up. There's a portion of other expenses which will go up, [inaudible]
Okay, fine. I'll come back. Thank you.
Thank you. Reminder to the participants to ask a question, please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from S&M. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. My first question is if we can highlight the volume growth for Q1 FY 2022 and for the FY 2021.
What I've said already was that the volume has nearly doubled. That I've already indicated. It's not totally doubled, but nearly twice the last year's.
Okay. What was the FY 2021 volume growth figure?
No, we do not give exact volumes, please.
For utilization figure, if we can share, sir?
It's the same thing.
Okay. Sir, my second question, what is the current penetration level in the United States? Because there, we are targeting majorly. If you can tell us what is the market size in the United States currently, which we are targeting?
Market size in the United States is around 35,000 tons.
Okay.
35,000-40,000 tons. We have started making inroads. We are still in early stages. Hopefully we should improve our market share there.
Okay, sir. What about the 1,000-2,000 tons we can take as a figure as of now in the U.S., which we could be doing right now?
It's a little higher than that. Currently, we are already doing a bit higher than 2,000.
Okay. My third question, sir, you are manufacturing almost three kind of grade, that is the high dispersion, high stability and special grade. If you can split this into percentage as to how much in high dispersion, high stability and special grade.
All of these put together are now, I would say, even 90% or more of our total production. I cannot split offhand between HS and HD, but if you look at HS, HD and special grades, they would constitute more than 90% of our total production.
Okay, sir. That special grade component would be much higher as compared to the high dispersion, or would it be lower or similar, just roughly?
No, HS and HD would constitute the major part and the specialty grades are less in percentage.
Okay. Sir, 67% of the sales is towards export. Have you witnessed any freight challenges because of the second COVID wave, particularly to the U.S. and the other economies?
I didn't get your question once again. What was the first part? 67%?
Sir, our major sales is towards the exports or roughly around 65%-70% is our export. Have you witnessed any freight related challenges, particularly in United States, EU and in other-?
Yes. Freights have gone up, that has been a challenge. We have been managing it. In fact, if you are aware that even container availability is becoming an issue for many people. Fortunately, we have also managed that well. I think once the freight rate normalizes, which should happen.
Okay.
Yeah. This is one thing that is a big question mark even looking at Q2, Q3, and onwards because there's very little we can do about this container availability and freight rates and all that. This is an external aspect which will have a significant impact on our P&L, and there's little we can do about it.
Okay. Sir, just a repeat to the earlier participant question. Sir, on a sequential basis, the revenue has fallen, but still the other expenses have gone up. You had said that the power and fuel cost has almost doubled. Going ahead, considering the volumes will go up, are you expecting power and fuel to go up from here on also?
What I said was that the power of the fuel, I did not say double. I said that this constitutes power and fuel, packing expenses and freight.
When my sales have gone up, then all these things will go up. Going forward also, though they will not go up on per metric ton basis, but they would go up on an absolute basis. For example, if I were to produce double the quantity I'm producing now, all these expenses will double, right? Because these are more of a variable nature.
Okay. Sir, one last question. Sir, which are the two to three major raw materials, and also if you can help that split into percentage-wise, if possible?
Our major raw material is sulfur.
We have oil. These are the two major raw materials. Our standard product that we sell in the market, 80% by weight is sulphur and 20% by weight is oil.
Sir, in initial commentary though, you had said that because the raw material prices had went up, you've not been able to pass on the same, and the similar impact has been seen in the margin. You had also said that the raw material prices have peaked. Considering if the crude prices, they again start to inch up from $70 to around the $80-$90. Again, we could see further increase in the raw material pricing, or what is your take, sir?
Sulphur and the oil that we use do not carry a direct correlation to the oil. If you look at it historically, the price of sulphur and oil used to be lower even when the price of crude was higher than this.
Okay.
There is no direct correlation. They have their own supply and demand dynamics. That is why, looking at every aspect, we feel that they have peaked. We have been closely monitoring global prices, indices, trends, production parameters, how the production is happening across the world. That is why our analysis is that they might have peaked, and we should be having better prices in the future.
Okay. Sir, where are we taking this coating oil from?
We have indigenous suppliers as well as global suppliers. We buy globally, and we buy it from India also.
Okay. 50% would be export and 50% domestic, would that be okay?
No, I think domestic is more, import is less.
Okay. Got it. Thank you, sir. That's all from me.
Thank you. Participants who ask a question, please press star and one now. The next question is from the line of Dhruv from HDFC Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yeah, sir. Thank you so much for the chance. Sir, in the earlier comments, you mentioned that large part of the cash flow will now be paid as dividends. [inaudible]
Large part of free cash flow.
Free cash flow, yeah. Dividend policy. Is it fair to say that the alternate investments or the other investments that we are planning to do, on an incremental basis, we will not be actively considering them, except for what we have already committed, I believe. We'll not be considering them, if I read the statement on your earlier comment correctly.
What I said is that we have certain retained earnings in our company. I said I don't expect the retained earnings to grow by much because most of the free cash flow is going to be paid out.
Yeah. Okay. That does also imply that on an incremental basis, what I was wondering from, the alternate investments or the other investments that we were doing, that won't be actively considered now.
I'm sorry, I don't get your question.
On an incremental basis, we will not be allocating further capital to the other kinds of investments that we were looking at earlier.
No, I don't think I made such a statement.
Okay. Got it, sir. Sir, the second thing was on the volume outlook now. You said that the outlook has improved currently. Should we assume a broadly kind of full utilization from the current levels, in current times?
Sir, what kind of levels did you say again, please? I'm not aware.
You said the demand outlook has improved significantly now, given everything has restarted largely. Should we assume broadly full utilization or broadly, if you can give some thoughts on the demand outlook now?
Obviously, we are hoping for a much better demand outlook and therefore a better uptake from our facilities. Certainly, the consequence will be a better capacity utilization.
Was that your question?
Yeah. Got it. Sir, lastly, we export quite a significant portion. Now, is what we sell is on CIF basis, or we sell on FOB basis. I'm trying to understand, does the freight cost impact you in terms of realization or it's a cost to the customer?
No, mostly our exports are on CIF basis, delivered price on CIF basis.
Okay. The temporary increase in freight cost will have some implications for us?
Yes. It will have implications for us. Obviously, our customers also do realize, and we are seeing some price correction on that impact. Overall, even now in July also the freights have increased. Let us see how this goes.
August is further increasing.
[inaudible]
August is again, there is a further increase because there are a lot of containers which are held up in China. The free flow is being further affected. Let us see how this goes now.
Sure. Sir, how frequently do you revise your contracts with your customers? What duration are they, in terms of, say, for example, when is the next price reset that happens? Probably for the new contract, you will set it up at the new freight rates, but for the older contracts?
What happens is that most of our contracts are either on quarterly or half-yearly basis. I think if you look at it tonnage-wide, it is a kind of an equalish split with a little bit bias on the quarterly side. At least for a quarter the prices are fixed.
Okay, got it.
Part of this higher shipping cost impact would also be visible in the 1Q numbers also. I mean, part of the impact is there in the 1Q numbers.
It will reflect in the numbers, yes.
Got it. Sure, sir. Thank you so much. That's helpful. Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nikhil from [inaudible]. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Good evening. Am I audible?
Yes, you're clear.
Hi. Sir, coming to your annual report. In the annual report, we had mentioned that the industry dynamics for last three, four years had been very bad, and there was no much pricing which was happening, and there were excess capacities which were created. If you look at last quarter or with the sale of the insoluble sulphur plant from Eastman to the PE, have we seen any plant shutdowns? Consequently, the increase in the cost structure which we are seeing, do you see that considering the strong demand, we are in a position to pass on that increased cost structure to the customers or we are still somewhat far away from that?
To answer about the cost structure, the cost structure has increased and is hurting all the manufacturers of insoluble sulphur. Our tire companies also understand that there is a substantial increase in cost structure. Wherever we have talked about it, they have been happy to give [inaudible] increases. Secondly, since it has hurt everyone, everybody is looking to mitigate their costs across the board. As far as your first question is concerned about shutdowns, whether there has been any unscheduled shutdown because of this thing, I am not aware of that. Obviously, because of COVID, if there has been less supply, people might have produced less, but shutdowns of specific plants, we are not aware of as such.
Okay. Just coming to the second point. First one, you mentioned that the price increases are happening. The reason I'm asking is because I understand this freight cost and all, which has increased and has impacted Q1. If you look at our long-term EBITDA per ton or gross profit per ton, which we were making, do you think like in a quarter or two, once the price increase and the raw material prices stabilize, we should be back to that level?
Subject to freight. We don't know how the freight thing is going to play out in future. For example, I go and ask for a price increase in the month of June with my customers, and I get a substantial part of it. Then again, the freight keeps on increasing in July and now they're increasing August. That is something which will impact our profitability even going forward till the whole thing stabilizes.
Sure, got it. Last question. On the Brownfield capacity which will come in October, are you seeing any tie-ups or any feelers in terms of the utilization or the capacity being tied up with the customers or would it be like once it is in place and then only the marketing starts?
Marketing has already started, and we have started seeing traction with our product getting approved at different customers. Now it's more about taking this process to its logical conclusion, getting the final approvals, and then actually converting it into business. I would say we're making progress on that front.
This would meaningfully contribute only next year, right?
In the next financial year. Correct. That's correct. This will meaningfully contribute only the next financial year.
Okay, sir. Thanks a lot. Thanks for your time.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Dhruv from HDFC Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yes, sir. Just a follow-up on the earlier one. If I look at the annual report, the freight and forwarding cost used to be around 7%-8% of our sales earlier. How has it changed now? What's the proportion now?
Currently, it is. Just give me one moment. It's about 9%, 9%- 10%. That was Q1.
That's what I was saying.
Q2 has further gone up.
Okay. Q1 was not significant, but we are seeing a further increase from Q1 levels. All right.
All the ships [inaudible] .
Yeah. Is it fair to assume, say, for example, when the next contract reset happens, the pricing will be reset including the freight, so all the increase in freight cost can be absorbed then by the customer? Or it will all depend upon market dynamics?
As I pointed out earlier, most of the contract resets have happened in the month of June for July onwards, right? These contract resets are either for July August September or July to December. The next contract reset would be from October.
The majority will be from January.
Yeah.
Majority will be from January, and I think we'll have to cross the bridge at that stage. The situation is very volatile to predict what will happen then.
Mm-hmm. Got it.
We have to cross this at that stage.
Got it. Sure. That's very helpful. Thank you so much. Thanks.
Thank you. Participants, to ask a question, please press star and one. The next question is from the line of Amit Shah from ACE Securities. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good morning. Good afternoon, sir. Sir, I have a couple of questions. How has export market performed during the quarter? Have you started seeing demand traction from North America and Europe? Have you added any new customers here or acquired more business from existing customers?
The demand from Europe and U.S.A. has been normal. We did not see any downturn because of what was happening in India. Of course, most of the downturn was mostly in India and Asian countries. It has mostly been normal. Yes, we are adding new customers also worldwide. That is a continuous process, and we have added new customers during the current year also.
Okay. Sir, our phase I of the expansion plan is expected to commission by October 2021. Sir, what is the order book visibility post this capacity? By when do we expect the capacity to ramp up?
What is supposed to happen is obviously there will be some new orders which will happen from Q1 of calendar year 2022. Looking at the new added capacity of phase I, I think the utilization of that capacity should start from Q1 of FY 2022/2023, as Akshat has pointed out a little earlier.
Okay. Sir, lastly, sir, of this INR 216 crore CapEx plan, how much has been incurred till June 2021? What is the expected revenue potential from the entire CapEx?
About INR 135 crore has been spent till June. The first phase is expected to have about INR 150 crore, out of which INR 135 crore we have spent in June. What was your second question?
Sir, the revenue potential from this entire CapEx. Hello?
Yes. The revenue potential would be somewhere between INR 70 crore-INR 75 crore if all of this was sold. Around INR 70 crore.
Okay. Okay, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Reminder to the participants, to ask a question, please press star one. The next question is from the line of Manish from [inaudible]. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity, sir. In the annual report, sir, you have written, there is a statement that insoluble sulphur cycle has bottomed out, and in the future days to come, the prices can go up.
No, it's the other way around. What I had said was that the sulphur pricing, it appears to have peaked. It is not rising anymore.
Sorry about that.
No, I think I know what you're referring to. What I meant is that the margins and the whole economics of the industry had actually bottomed out and investment economics had disappeared. Now what is your question regarding that, please?
No, no. I am asking about the insoluble sulphur cycle has bottomed out and the insoluble sulphur market going forward will go up.
When it will go up and how it will go up is a different chapter.
No. The question was that, has it bottomed out? That was the question.
Yes. In my view, we had reached the bottom. It will be very difficult for it to go further down.
That's all. That was my question. The second question was about the price hikes. Have you taken the price hike from July 1st?
Yes, some of them have been taken.
Okay, sir. Yeah. That's all, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, The next question is from the line of Ashay Jain from Jain Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello. Good afternoon, sir. I have a couple of questions. Firstly, how is the scenario on supply side for insoluble sulphur? Any new capacity coming up globally? Secondly, what is the outlook on the tire industry with the current COVID scenario in the domestic market?
To answer your first question, I think whatever capacity is meant to come up has already come up. We are not aware of any new capacities which are going to come up now or which are under implementation that we believe so. To answer your second question, I recently read somewhere that in Europe, the secondary market for tires is booming now. It's because of the preference for personal travel. That augurs well for tire consumption. We are looking at a healthy demand for tires worldwide. As far as domestic demand is concerned, again, the same holds true, with greater personal mobility, the secondary tire demand appears to be on the rise. We should be looking at a healthy demand in the domestic sector also, which we feel should be growing in double digits as we have always indicated.
Okay. That's all, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Keshav Garg from CCIPL. Please go ahead.
Sir, very good afternoon. Sir, wanted to understand so that there has been some news that some private equity has bought over Eastman, who's our competitor. Sir, any impact on the pricing of the product, or are they basically aggressively looking up to take market share or increase volumes or any other impact that you see due to this transaction?
Sir, I think it's too early to comment on these things. We have not even taken control of the assets to the best of our knowledge. We'll only know how they'll behave once they've actually taken control.
Okay, sir. Also, sir, had the Chinese insoluble sulphur manufacturers, had they been able to get some approvals and enter our customer base?
No. To the best of our knowledge, no.
Okay. Sir, is there any possibility of us entering the Chinese market?
Well, we keep tabs on it, but if you ask me in the near future, are we going to be getting a lot of sales from them, then I don't have that visibility.
Sir, which are the other major geographies that you are not present as of now and in future you would like to enter?
North America, which is what we've been saying. A lot of focus is going into North America.
Sir, the Japanese market, which is the second largest, third largest automobile market in the world?
Sir, yeah. I think I just mentioned that. More than the Japanese market, the Japanese tire manufacturers also continue to be on our radar wherever our presence is low. As we get volumes from them, they may even allot volumes in Japan.
Sure, sir. Sir, also, sir, last year, EBITDA has been flat since the last four years. We understand due to COVID and other factors. Going forward, sir, you think that we're able to sustain a quarterly run rate of over INR 100 crore top line and around INR 30 crore EBITDA per quarter?
I think definitely. I think we should definitely, once things turn around, we should certainly start hitting INR 100 crore plus top line. If we hit INR 100 crore plus top line, I mean, the EBITDA, there's no reason why it could not be INR 50 plus.
Sir, coming to our pricing arrangements with our customers, what all is a passthrough, sir? Like for example, is the currency passthrough, raw material?
Sir, nothing is passthrough. This is all basically a negotiated every quarter.
Okay, sir.
I mean, you're asking me contractually what is passthrough and contractually not.
Sir, what are the factors which cause our raw material prices to increase or decrease? Like you mentioned that even in the past when crude was above $100, sulphur prices were under control. Basically, what is causing sulphur prices to move?
Sulphur has its own demand and supply dynamics. Sulphur, as you know, is also a major component of fertilizers. One of the biggest consumption of sulphur is fertilizers. That is one thing which determines the price of sulphur. There was a certainty to the huge production of fertilizer, and there is no corresponding increase in availability. The other is the operation of the refineries per se. There is no exact formula or method to say that, which is what will impact. Two major things which impact the pricing of sulphur is the refinery operations. Overall, if the economy goes down and the overall refineries are not running to the capacity that they normally would, that would result in lower supply of sulphur and consequently a pressure on sulphur prices.
Secondly is if there was a certain increase in consumption due to increase in fertilizer production, for example. That could have an impact on sulphur price.
Great, sir. Sir, lastly, just a suggestion, sir, that instead of dividends, sir, please do regular buybacks so that our earning per share can increase permanently, sir. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, to ask a question, you may press star and one. Next question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from S&M. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the follow-up, sir. Sir, my question is, in which manufacturing unit of Dharuhera and Mundra, where we manufacture insoluble sulphur. Where is the EBITDA per ton higher?
No, that is very difficult to say. It depends on the area that we service, where it is sold. That would be unfair comparison to say which is EBITDA is higher.
Okay. Sir, as per the raw material availability, like so to which manufacturing unit, so the raw material availability is closer and freight cost and power cost are low.
Let me put it this way, that we have raw materials, for example, sulphur is available in Mundra from Reliance and in Dharuhera from Panipat Refinery of IOCL.
Yes.
Freight-wise, except for imported raw material, wherever it is to a little extent, there is not much difference in raw material prices.
Okay. Our expansion of 11,000 metric ton insoluble sulphur is into which manufacturing unit?
It is in Dharuhera .
Okay. Okay, sir. Thank you. That's it.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
I take this opportunity to thank everyone for joining on the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly reach out to our Strategic Growth Advisors. Thank you once again.
Thank you. On behalf of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.