Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited Q4 and FY 2022 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka, Promoter and Managing Director of OCCL Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Good afternoon and a very warm welcome to everyone. Along with me, I have Mr. Anurag Jain, CFO and SGA, our investor relations advisors. Before we begin, I hope you and your loved ones are keeping safe and healthy. We've uploaded our results and investor presentation for the quarter and full year ended March 2022 on the stock exchanges and company website. Hope each one of you had a chance to go through the same. Firstly, I am pleased to share that the board of directors have recommended a final dividend of INR 7 for equity share in addition to an interim dividend declared of INR 7 for equity share in November of 2021 and by giving out a dividend of INR 14 for equity share for the financial year 2021/2022, that is 140% of the face value, INR 10 each.
This is 35% of our PAT, the highest ever payout percentage and in line with our new dividend policy. FY 2022 was a year marked by COVID wave, high commodity prices, freight costs and geopolitical issues. There was demand slowdown in domestic as well as international markets on account of the Russia-Ukraine war. Cost of our major raw materials, sulphur and petroleum coke have been rising. Since 65% of our sales are export related, we have also faced the impact of very high freight costs like all other industries. Supply chain disruptions have impacted our margins and profitability during the year. We have judiciously taken measures towards controlling costs. We have also taken a few price increases during the year and have further increased prices to cover the increased cost in the upcoming quarter for both domestic and international markets.
Coming to our expansion plan, I would like to mention that based on our plant of 5,500 metric tons per annum was commissioned and produced in March 2021. The capacity for insoluble sulphur now stands at approximately 40,000 metric tons per annum. The ramping up of this new capacity shall take a few quarters. The company has also commissioned the additional capacity of sulphuric acid plant of 50,000 metric tons per annum at Dharuhera, Haryana. Now the total manufacturing capacity of sulphuric acid stands at approximately 90,000 metric tons per annum. We shall plan for the second phase of insoluble sulphur expansion depending on the visibility of demand and market scenario. I would also like to announce that our company incorporated a wholly-owned subsidiary called OCCL Limited on 26th March 2022.
It has been incorporated to carry on the business of manufacturing, sale and purchase of all types of chemical products. Coming to our scheme of arrangement that the board of directors has just considered and approved between our company and OCCL Limited, our wholly-owned subsidiary and their respective shareholders and creditors with demerger of the chemical business undertaken by the company to OCCL Limited. The appointed date of the scheme is the effective date, and the scheme is subject to approval of requisite regulatory authorities and shareholders. As part of the overall strategy for the optimum running, growth and development of the business of the demerged company, it is considered desirable and expedient to reorganize and reconstruct the demerged company by demerging its chemical business to the resulting company. It will result in the creation of two separate robust entities.
The resulting company, OCCL Limited, which will focus exclusively on the chemical business, and the demerged company being the current one, which shall continue to do business with investments and would also intend to initiate some commodity chemical business. Our chemical business includes imports of sulphur and petroleum. The rationale behind this demerger is value unlocking of the respective businesses, flexibility in accessing capital, and enabling to attract business from corporate and investors. The demerger would also enable management to focus on pursuing revenue growth and other expansion opportunities in their respective businesses in future. Upon the scheme being effective, the resulting company shall issue and allot five fully paid-up equity share of INR 2 each of the resulting company credited as fully paid-up only one fully paid-up equity share of INR 10 each of the demerged company.
This share swap ratio will increase liquidity in the stock benefiting all shareholders. Overall, this news is great for all shareholders. It will give everyone an opportunity to be part of two distinct businesses without overlap and keep us ready to take advantage of evolving opportunities in the future for both businesses. We are also delighted to announce the company has been accredited with Responsible Care logo by the Indian Chemical Council for a period of three years up to March 2025. This is a very important recognition of our sustainability efforts credentials. We have also received two awards from our customers on sustainability. Tire industry outlook looks positive, and many tire companies have the CapEx plans of approximately INR 5,000 crores for this fiscal. Strong demand expected from replacement market and OEM. Demand will be driven by higher government spending and increasing vehicle realization.
Demand for commercial vehicles is expected to remain favorable, supported by accelerated economic activities. To conclude, we believe the current challenges in the external environment are short-term and shall taper down soon. With our completion of capacity expansion, we are confident of gaining new orders and increasing wallet share. Now I would like to hand over the line to Mr. Anurag Jain to update you on the financial performance of the company.
Thank you, Akshat. I would take you all through the standalone financials of the company. Total income for Q4 FY22 stood at INR 110.8 crores as compared to INR 306.9 crores in Q4 FY21, a growth of 4% year-on-year. Demand was impacted initially at the start of third wave and geopolitical issues.
EBITDA for Q4 FY 2022 stood at INR 16.7 crore with EBITDA margin of 15.1%. Margins were being impacted due to sharp increase in raw material prices and high fuel costs. We have taken price increases to cover the increased costs and shall take further and have taken price increases in the coming quarter for both domestic and international markets. Profit after tax for Q4 FY 2022 stood at INR 4.3 crore. Profitability was impacted on account of supply side volatility and inflationary pressure on input costs. To quickly summarize the full year numbers, total revenue for FY 2022 stood at INR 380.9 crore as compared to INR 304.7 crore, a growth of 13%. The EBITDA stood at INR 80.5 crore with margins at 21%.
Profit after tax for FY 2022 stood at INR 9.9 crores and PAT margins were at 10%. With this, I would like to open the floor for questions and answers.
Thank you very much, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. Participants who wish to ask a question may kindly press star one on your touchtone telephone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Nikhil from SiMPL. Kindly proceed.
Yeah. Hi. Good afternoon. [audio distortion] Yes. Yeah, two questions, sir. One is on this demerger. Two-three clarification which I wanted. In the note we say investments will go into the demerged entity. The current investment, which is in form of cash, that will remain with this company or, that will also go to the investment company. On the current investment, where it will go? Secondly, on Duncan holding, which OCCL has, which of the companies would be, will be given the holding of Duncan Assets?
Okay. One thing I'd like to clarify that the investment company will be the current company as you all know it today, and it is the chemical business which will go into a new company. I hope this clarification is okay.
Duncan is expected to remain in the current investment company. As far as which investment and which cash go here and there, all that will be taken by the board right before the actual demerger takes place. The call will be taken basis looking at all the business requirements of the chemical business. Appropriate cash will be left with the chemical business to meet all its needs and keep it fit, and probably the balance will remain in the investment company. But this will only be taken at balance sheet, which will be quite a number of months away and looking at the situation at that time.
Secondly, on the investment, so, I'm not clear.
What would be the whole idea or purpose of this company going forward? Like, what kind of investment? Is it real estate investment or some of those should be taken up? Or what would be the whole purpose of the investment?
Let me maybe step back and answer overall what is the one of the reasons or the importances of this whole deal, Rajan. A lot of times we've been listening to our shareholders. A lot of times we've been told by our shareholders that they want to invest only in the insoluble sulphur. They don't want to have investments in other diversified businesses. They don't want to have their things in investments.
That is the reason we thought that, you know, for the shareholder it would be fair to create an entity which has only the insoluble sulphur and related businesses, so they can so choose to be only a part of that. Once that is created, it could also become attractive for external investors or strategic investors to come into a clean, insoluble sulphur entity. Now, as far as the investment business is concerned, we, you know, will continue to evaluate business opportunity. Let's not really restrict today what we will get into. There are various things that could evolve as time goes on.
Sure. On the business side, I have a few questions.
Now, I am unable to connect the dots because if you look at the performance for China Sunshine Insoluble Sulphur or even for Shikoku Chemicals in terms of their inorganic chemical business, which majorly is insoluble sulphur. Both the companies are talking about, like the price increases have been significant in the industry and as a result the performance has grown or improved significantly in the last six months. Contrarily, our performance has been significantly impacted in the last six months. Our loss, the material cost itself, which was around INR 70-INR 75, has now come down to INR 50-INR 55.
I'm unable to connect what are the key pressure points which we are seeing and why are we not able to completely pass on the pricing when our competitors, two largest competitors are saying that pricing is happening in the industry and they are actually seeing the benefit of them.
I will answer. First I will talk about the competitors. The competitors are much larger businesses than we are, and they have bundle of products. For them to say that they have got better prices doesn't necessarily mean for insoluble sulphur. As far as our information goes, as far as profitability for insoluble sulphur goes, none of them is better than us. Right? One of the reasons we were not able to increase prices in the last quarter was because internationally prices didn't go up.
The second part is that as far as raw material costs are concerned, they have risen significantly over the last year. I will just give you one example, that the total cost of sulphur, I was just looking at the numbers, has grown by about 133% over the same quarter last year. It's 2.25 times what it was over the same quarter last year. Similarly, the total input cost has grown by 70% over last year's corresponding quarter. This is a cost which has gone up. The prices could not be increased. We have obviously taken a price increase because it happened quarter to quarter in Q1 of the current year.
Unfortunately, what was happening earlier was wherever we were able to extract as much price increase as we could, the raw material prices were moving further, negating those price increases. That was the sum total effect that we saw in Q4.
Okay. I understand that what you are saying that the companies are much larger and have more businesses. I'm specifically talking on Shikoku's inorganic chemical segment, where they themselves mentioned that insoluble sulphur is the largest business for them in the inorganic chemical, and which they report separately. My confusion has come from that angle, that's all.
Well, I'm not aware of that statement that insoluble sulphur is largest because they have silicone oil business also.
If there is such a report and such a result, then we would also love to review it and see what is going on in there. Maybe we have not connected on what you're referring to.
Okay. Effectively, if you look at it, could we have passed on most of the cost increases now in terms of what we have faced over the last six months? There are cases in terms of pricing versus cost increase.
As we are here, whatever little cost increase we could pass on, we could manage to pass on. Because of the competition, we couldn't pass all of it. We did, but it was not all of the cost which was passed and costs increased further in each quarter. In Q1, we were able to pass on most of the cost increases.
The level of cost increase which has passed or which has been passed in Q1 is better than what it was in earlier quarters.
Sure. I'll come back to that, you know, as to what. Yes.
Thank you. Participants, if you wish to ask a question, kindly press star one. The next question is on the line of Samarth Singh from TPF Capital. Kindly proceed.
Good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity. Just QOQ on our operating expense, I mean, there was INR 6.5 billion increase between quarter four and quarter three. Now, I believe our freight is stable between Q3 and Q4. What is the reason for this largest increase in operating expenses?
You're talking about from INR 32 crore- INR 38.97 crore. That is what you're expecting now.
Yes.
In Q4 to Q4, the major increase is in freight and power, and power and fuel.
This is Q3 to Q4, you're saying?
From Q4 to Q4, I'm saying.
No, no. I'm saying Q3, third quarter of the year, where our operating expenses was INR 32.3 crores.
Right.
It was INR 38.9. I think third quarter we had mentioned that freights are now stabilized. I'm just wondering when.
There was a major increase in power and fuel costs. That was major increase. Then there was a change in inventory which was negative in the last quarter by INR 3 crore and positive this quarter by INR 3 crore, INR 3.5 crore. That was the two major changes which have happened.
Change in inventory will become under cost of goods. That is.
Change in inventory. Fixed costs have increased from this. Major increase of about INR 3.5 crore is in fuel. The rest is in fixed costs, which mainly consists of some repairs which could not be taken earlier and which were taken during the quarter. It was the same for the whole year, but they were more concentrated in the quarter. That is the main cost. The second is the remeasurement of our foreign currency exposure. It was in profit, foreign currency exposure was in profit in December, and it went into loss in March. These are the two major issues where the costs have increased.
I see. Okay. I'm assuming the fuel costs have remained elevated and will continue.
Other costs have been on the same par with inflation, you know.
Okay. I know you don't give volume numbers, but if I just compare financial year 2022 volumes to 2020 and 2019, can you give me the sort of degrowth between 2019 and 2022 and 2020 and 2022.
Let me say that the volumes have increased slightly over last year. There has been a slight increase in volumes. The turnover increase that you see is mostly driven by price hikes. And I think there is no increase over Q1 since Q2 2022.
Okay. If I compare to year 2019, which was like, you know, one of our best years, you know, what has been the sort of degrowth compared to 2019?
I will have to potentially come back to you on that. I will come back to you on that, 2019. I don't have the numbers of 2019 in front of me just.
Okay. Just one last question on something you answered to the previous participant. Is the demand and the competitive scenario, such that you see us at least being able to pass on all the raw material cost pressures, both given the lag over, you know, over the next few quarters remaining now they remain stable, even though we may not be able to pass on our freight and our power costs? Is that, is my understanding correct?
You know, there are two aspects. One is the freight and one is the raw material and power cost. It is very difficult to pass on the increase in freight costs because you have competitors who have transferred that in non-competitive geographies. That is something which we find difficult to pass on. As far as raw material costs are concerned, we have seen that in this quarter our competitors have been increasing costs because their margins have been impacted very badly worse than us, and therefore we also increase costs. For next quarter it will depend on how the raw material and fuel costs behave in the next few months.
Okay. I will get back. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Participants, if you wish to ask a question, kindly press star one.
Before we start the question, there was a question which I said I will come back later on. Which was whether our volumes, how did they compare with 2018-2019? We are in roughly the same base on top in 2021.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Anuj Sharma from M3 Investment. Kindly proceed.
Yeah, thank you. Am I audible?
Yes, you are.
Yeah, thank you. You know, just to understand.
I cannot now. Now it's up. Only the voice volume has dropped. Can you come closer to the mic or speak loudly, please?
Yeah. I hope this is better.
Yes.
Yeah. You know, we can see that tire companies, chemical companies usually choose to allocate their retained earnings in related or allied segments so that we could leverage relationships and synergy. However, we chose a different path of investment, a different path of allocating the retained earnings. I wanted to understand what competencies do we have in investments that we chose to allocate capital there?
To answer these kind of questions only now we are going to get demerged. Each company will have its own relevant set of competencies built up.
Yeah. If you were to highlight your competencies in the investment field, what would they be?
We have a separate team for it. It is not. Let us say, for example, Viraj is not doing investments. There's a separate team for it.
All right.
When there will be two companies, they will be run with their own set of competencies and their own skills. This question is why are those demerged and restructured.
My next question is, you know, over the period and the demerged entity which is OCCL Limited will again start generating cash. How would this cash be allocated? Would it be remaining in chemical-
You should look at the you know very nice dividend policy that we have come up with here, which says that 50% of PAT will be paid out as dividend, which is almost the entire free cash flow. Entity will pay out dividend. It will grow an insolvency fund or grow a related thing, pay out dividend, pay down debt. Very clearly.
That demarcation of the demerged entity, the incremental retained earnings will remain in the chemical or related fields?
Dividend.
Dividend. All right. Generally, you know, in terms of pricing, can it be that some competitors have a better pricing than us and hence they seem to indicate better pricing power or is it a very, very homogeneous market wherein the pricing remains constant for everyone?
By pricing power, you mean the power to price it or the power to purchase?
The power to sell insoluble sulphur to the tire.
Power to sell would obviously, the competency will be different in different geographies for each producer. For example, if you were to go to China, then the Chinese producer will have a match. If somebody was to come in India, the Indian producer will have a match. If you were to come to Turkey, they'll have a match. This competency will differ from geography to geography. We have managed to compete in each geography till date.
What I'm trying to understand that can the pricing vary significantly across geographies? Because if some players do indicate that they are seeing an uptick in pricing, all right, and we don't seem to. Could that be a function of different operating in different geographies? Or, you know it?
No, I am definitely what the earlier person said that, you know, they are enjoying a huge margin benefit of the profits while we are not on insoluble. That is not my understanding first of all. Secondly, you know, as I said that we are matching or we are competitive in each geographies. Obviously, the margins were better to the extent of the three differences in each area and how we are able to deliver to the customer. For example, today the inputs are high, that hits our margin today. Whether that will remain that way or not is questionable for a long time.
All right. I have one question before I come back into queue. Generally in the investments, in the chemical business you would have a minimum basic IRR which you want to generate. Similarly, in the investment business, what is the minimum IRR you seek to generate or seek to look at, you know, which you would encounter business?
The basic qualifying IRR for capital investments remains the same. How it changes based on the risk of that project. If you ask me what's the basic IRR remains the same. In terms of absolute IRR, that differs from riskiness of the investment.
All right. I'll come back into queue. Thank you.
Thank you.
To ask a question, kindly press star one. The next question is from the line of Umang Shah from Sarath Capital. Kindly proceed.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. The first question is, would you be open sharing the fair value of the investments that you have in the balance sheet, which will be remaining in the investment company?
Sorry, I didn't hear the question. Can you repeat please? The fair value of
Sir, the fair value of the investments that will remain in the investment company.
Fairly, as I said in the earlier question, that this final decision will be taken by the board right before the demerger actually takes place. Apart from that, there are a number of documents that are soon going to be filed with the stock exchanges which will provide some indication.
Right. Sure. Sir, the second question is there any plan for the future disinvestments that come from the cash generated by the insoluble sector company? Going forward, once the demerger happens, will there be any cash moving from the chemical company to the investment company, or that won't happen?
These are going to become two separate companies, right? Once the demerger takes place, cash cannot just randomly move between companies.
Right. Right, sir. Sir, in terms of management bandwidth, right, I think the top management for Duncan Engineering and for Oriental Carbon right now is the same. So, can you see?
In me, then yes, but nobody else is the same.
Okay. It's just you.
It's just me.
Right. Sir, one more question was, after the acquisition of Eastman Chemical by One Rock, what has been their behavior as far as pricing schemes are concerned in the market front?
See, the only interesting thing that I can share is that once they got the charge of Eastman Chemical, they have actually gone through a change in the top management. Their new CEO has only joined in April, so barely been a month and a half. Unfortunately it's too soon for us to see what is happening or what. Something must have been part of the internal strategy for them to change the CEO after a few months. I think it will be now in the next few months, what the new CEO does and how he takes the company forward.
Right. Right. Sir, does this help our chances in increasing our market share in North America? I think that is a geography they are dominant in?
I don't think it would be right to comment on their management changes and link it to our prospects.
Right, sir.
It doesn't matter where we sit in the company.
Right, sir.
No.
Right. Sir, one last question. Some calls earlier alluded to a fact that at today's prices of insoluble sulphur, no greenfield capacity can actually come up, which could actually mean that there is significant overcapacity in the industry. What, like, is it the change in commercial vehicle sales that commercial vehicle usage of tires has it changed that fact? Or, how long do you think there will be this overcapacity persist, if any?
See, how long overcapacity will remain is very difficult to predict.
Mm-hmm.
Because that's, you know, predicting the exact growth rates and all of these things.
Mm-hmm.
I still maintain that investment economics is even worse today than what it was a year or so ago when I made this statement. It has only worsened, it has not improved from that day.
Right. Sir, is that worsened because the volume of insoluble sulphur being sold is less, or is it because new capacity from China is filling in the global market?
I think it could be for various reasons. Firstly, I'm not aware of Chinese capacity being sold in the global market, so I'd like to clarify that upfront. I have not heard of Chinese capacity being sold in the global market. China itself was a big consumer where our competitors have been exposed in China. Maybe that has dried up. Many various things are happening. Costs have gone up. There's a lot of turmoil that is happening in the market. I don't think right now is the time to draw any long-term trends or things like that.
Right. All right, sir. These were some of the questions. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Participants who wish to ask a question may kindly press star one. The next question is from the line of Anurag Patil from Roha Asset Managers. You may proceed.
Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, in Q1, can we say the demand has actually improved sequentially compared to Q4?
We are seeing some positive growth indications. We expect to sell more in Q1 than in Q4. We are seeing some positive trend in Q1.
Okay. For this grade one CapEx, can we say full utilization will be possible by the year end, FY2023?
Yes, that is what we feel, that we should start utilizing the capacity fully by Q4.
Okay. That's it from my side. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of [audio distortion] from Nirvana Ventures. Kindly proceed.
Hi sir. Thanks for the opportunity. [audio distortion] .
Sorry, can you hear me?
Yeah. Sir, basically on the demerger, so as I understand, for every one share of the parent company, the investor will get five shares of OCCL Limited, and OCCL Limited will be eventually listed. What happens to the listing?
No, no. Current company remains listed. Regarding plans to take it private or not, I mean, it's nothing to do with the demerger but as part of the demerger scheme is concerned, the existing company will be listed and the current company will also be listed.
Okay. Sure, sir. In terms of P&L, 97% is the contribution of the chemical business that will go to OCCL. Can you share the percentage of assets in terms of fair value? You know, if you have to compare between the current company and the chemical business.
If I answer this question by the board, right? Over, on the right day and all that will be filed with the stock exchange soon. That will provide some indications as to what is the situation.
Sure, sir. Thanks. I don't have any, in terms of time. Thank you.
One important point I'd just like to make actually related to. In this share swap ratio of 5 shares against one, this is again another very shareholder-friendly move, friendly for all shareholders. This is for quite some time we have been getting feedback that shareholders would like more liquidity in OCCL. That is also something we have taken care of in this scheme.
Thank you. Participants with questions, kindly press star one. The next question is from the line of Mohit Kumar from Kumra Investment Company. Kindly proceed.
Yeah, hi. Hello?
Yes, sir, we can hear you.
Hello, can you hear me? Hello.
Mr. Kumar, we can hear you. Kindly proceed.
Yeah. As of this moment, I'm just trying to look back a little on your balance sheet on the non-current investments. It's around INR 70 crore and current investments is around INR 110 crore, right? Sounds about right.
Yes.
Okay. As far as I understand from your previous annual report, the current investments are cash and equivalents, liquid funds, debt funds, this and that, whatnot. Is it right to assume that even this year this is around the same, like INR 110 crores of cash/liquid funds that you have?
We have already published the balance sheet, and it shows investment of INR 102 crore in current assets and INR 84.4 crore in non-current assets.
Okay, your non, INR 84.4, I see 69. Anyhow, my point is that for your non-current assets last year it was given as private equity/venture capital funds which you were investing in. A few quarters before that you said that your final aim for such investments was around INR 100 crores, this is what you said. Does that-
I can clarify. I said that we will go up to 20%-25% of net worth. This is what I had said. I never said INR 100 crore.
Okay. What is that value now? What is your aim. I'm guessing that this.
No, but in the future this is not relevant, right? Because now there's two separate companies.
Mm-hmm.
This whole conversation is not relevant, not applicable.
Okay.
It will not be investing anything in these assets. It will be purely cash and dividends and those kinds of things. The investment company will be entirely in these activities. That is the kind of thing.
Okay. Anyhow, as far as your investments, non-current investments for the previous year were concerned, they were mostly into, what I understood was very high tech, yeah, this private equity, venture capital, all of that kind of stuff, right? Am I correct in that? It was not your run-of-the-mill equity investments or run-of-the-mill property investments. It wasn't like that.
No, sir, we are not doing any run-of-the-mill stuff.
Basically, okay, as of this date, investments which you have made for your non-current investments basically are a fund of funds of private equity investments.
Just to clarify, the figure in the balance sheet also probably includes things like shares in Duncan and all of those things.
Yes.
INR 82 crores that we are referring to includes subsidiary and all that. Leaving all those mundane things that have been in the books for years aside, all the fresh investments in the last two, three years have all been into specialized things, not run-of-the-mill. Now please go ahead, yeah.
The non-listed private equity and venture capital funds, right?
and non-listed, not just through funds.
Okay. I understand. This is what I'm just trying to sort of get a grip on what your outlook towards future investments is. Basically it is not what can be described as listed market. It is you are basically yourself becoming a private equity firm now or a venture capitalist firm, in a sense. Am I correct?
No, I cannot say that is correct. What I can say is that, yes, we are not investing in listed entities and listed equities at all.
You started a couple of years ago. Was it happening to be a very bad time for you, looking at the overall, for example, if you take the Nasdaq or the benchmark index?
This is a good time to do. It's a fantastic time. I think these things will take time to reflect on the balance sheet. There are certain exits that we have made in this last year, which go and fit straight into the network. It did not go through to the P&L due to the Ind AS requirement. We have had some exits also in this past year. Our portfolio is doing well, but these are all long-term bets, and it will take time, you know, to reflect.
Okay. One small other question which is unrelated to this. Now that your capacity expansion is completely done, what was the final expenditure? Like, what was the final expense on sulphur and what was the final expense on insoluble sulphur? And what was the final Dharuhera capital cost, capital expense?
First thing is you are saying that all our expansions are. We are based on the timeline. The phase two will be taken up at the appropriate time meeting the demand. Now the expense is in line with the budget. We had earlier shared with you, in spite of the delays, there has been a very marginal increase in the cost. We are happy to share that it has not impacted the cost of the project.
What was the final cost of your CapEx, no, phase one?
The final cost is somewhere around INR 140,000-INR 160,000.
160,000. Okay. How much was your expense on the insoluble sulphur? How much was completely-
That data we do not have here to share because it was done all together. We had many common expenses, so there is not a very clear-cut breakup on that.
Very well. Thank you so much.
Okay.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Saravanan Balakrishnan, an individual investor. Can you proceed?
Thank you for giving the opportunity. The first question is primarily on the total insoluble sulphur capacity in the market. It's a very new opportunity market. Like any direction of that, like what's the capacity in the North American market?
Sorry, I couldn't make out what you were saying. I think I have to think because I was missing a lot.
The question is, what's the total market capacity of insoluble sulphur in the North American market?
You are talking about demand? I was.
No. I mean, the capacity on the ground. Like comparing all the players.
We have a Flexsys who has a plant in North America.
Okay.
They are the only people who are present there. They have enough capacity to meet the American demand in the next quarter.
What's the MTPA, like, they have on the ground?
What is the?
MTPA. Like total insoluble sulphur capacity. Like what's the MTPA.
North America, our estimate is that they have roughly 40,000 tons of capacity.
Got it. Like any direction like there in the supply sort of in coming months. Since last time when we spoke, like Flexsys was selling off insoluble sulphur capacity, right? Like any direction of like the supply is coming down?
Any direction on what?
On the supply coming down.
Supply?
Yeah.
Coming down. I am not aware of any supply coming down as of now. I don't think the supply will come down.
Got it. Also on the other question, primarily on the buyback side. Now since like the demand also like looks pretty like how should we like consider like a buyback. Which will help in helping bringing the float down. Since the capital also is almost on the right side.
We are split into two companies today, and we have two separate entities. Right? These two companies are going to take their own decisions going forward as to what to do and what not to do. Today we have very clearly said that whatever investments are there, that will sit in the company which is there for investments, and another company will continue to do that. We follow the same business.
Got it. In terms of, like capital allocation to like, power NG, like what's the, like the roadmap that we have right now? Since the phase two of sulphur is now put on hold, right? We are seeing that phase one
It is not on hold. Whenever the need arises in terms of opportunities, we will immediately get it, get the expansion done.
Got it. Like what's the cost of capital for the new projects or like any, anything compared?
At the time when we made the project, it was INR 60 crore for that function. Okay. That was the budget. Obviously, we will regenerate the cost when we get into the actual expansion.
Got it. I mean, like, we had a maintenance, like, for the phase four expansion. Like, since the cost of borrowing also has gone up, like we sort of again, revisiting that one, in terms of like if we want to make sure on the phase two of installation for the expansion.
I heard that you are saying that we have an expansion and if the cost of borrowing is going up. I couldn't get the first part.
Yeah. Mainly if the cost of borrowing is going up.
It is not gone up as of now. Obviously it will go up in line with the global rates of interest. That will be there. As of now, we have not seen any increase. Yes, it will go up shortly whenever the reset of the interest arises in terms of increasing lending rates by the banks.
Got it. Also like at this point what's the current market share that we have in the North American market share?
Globally, we believe that we have a market share of 100%.
Got it. Again, eventually we would look to again reach the 10% number, is it like on your North American region? Hello?
Yes. You are asking whether it will be, 10% is the question?
Exactly. Because since like currently like Flexsys is having like 40% NPA capacity on the ground, right?
What we do plan is to grow at a pace which is higher than the demand growth in insoluble sulphur. That means that definitely we are looking at a increase in our market share in coming years.
Got it. Makes sense. That's it from my end, sir. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Sameer Singh from TPF Capital . You can proceed.
Thank you for the follow-up. Conservatively estimated, what is replacement cost per ton for a greenfield IS plant?
It's very difficult to say unless we complete the next phase of expansion. Once we have done that then we will review based on the payback that is there at that point of time, what is the you know what is the portion planned to look for in the expansion.
No, no, I was not asking for when is the future expansion. I was just asking you, what is the investment cost per ton, if you were to estimate today, for you know greenfield you know insoluble sulphur plant?
Okay. Let me check. I think it should be as high as even INR 10 lakh a ton.
That was, I think, about INR 1.8, INR 1.75 lakhs. The official is the number you have. Is that right?
That's the fact. That may have been without taking land and all. Right? We did.
Okay. I see. Okay. That was.
It's a minimum cost I think. It can be higher.
Okay, that's very helpful. Just one, I think, Anurag Jain had made a statement that Q4 of this year we will be utilizing the capacity. Is that correct?
He said that there is a chance that some of it will start getting utilized by Q4.
Okay. Some of it. Yes.
It all depends on how the allocation and all comes through. In terms of approvals, we are sitting pretty well now. Earlier approvals was a challenge. Approvals, you know, we have received a lot of approvals. Now it's about making the applications.
This expanded capacity is largely for the North American market. Is that right?
No, it's global market.
Okay. We're not looking to largely grow in North America. That was my understanding.
North America, obviously, will be a focus area of growth.
Right. Okay. Second last question. What is the expected timeline for the demerger?
I think, a year from today, we should have those two separate entities ready. It all depends on how long MCA will take and all of those things. Anywhere from 10 to 12 months is what we foresee, the time taken to have the new entity and up and running.
Got it. Okay. Very helpful. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraints, that is the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
I take this opportunity to thank everyone for joining on the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly reach out to us or SGA, our investor relations advisor. Thank you once again. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect.