AG Ventures Limited (BOM:506579)
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At close: May 5, 2026
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Q1 22/23

Aug 3, 2022

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q1 FY23 earnings conference call of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touch tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka, Promoter and Joint Managing Director of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited.

Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Goenka.

Akshat Goenka
Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Good afternoon and a very warm welcome to everyone. Along with me, I have Mr. Anurag Jain, our CFO, and SGA, our investor relations advisors. Before we begin, I hope you and your loved ones are keeping safe and healthy. We have uploaded our results and investor presentation for the quarter ending thirtieth June 2022 on the stock exchanges and company website. Hope each one of you had a chance to go through the same. The global economy is witnessing high inflation and supply chain disruptions on account of geopolitical tensions. High energy prices have impacted industries across sectors. Despite the macroeconomic situation, Q1 FY 2023 was a fairly stable quarter for our company. Our company has delivered total income growth of 24% on a quarter-on-quarter basis to INR 137 crores in Q1. We have witnessed moderately stable demand from both domestic and international markets.

Growth in our total income was aided by higher volumes and increased sales realizations. We expect this growth momentum to continue with better demand. We have witnessed some correction in the freight costs in the current quarter, which is Q2. Raw material prices were an increasing trend in Q1 FY 2023, but we took price hikes during the quarter, which led to some margin correction. Now we are seeing downward correction in Sulphur prices happening in July onwards, and we expect stabilization in the raw material prices moving ahead. Our team is continuously keeping a watch on costs and taking steps towards controlling it. The ramping up of the new line of IS that we commissioned last year should happen gradually over the next few quarters. We had also commissioned our additional Sulphuric Acid capacity of 42,000 metric tons per annum, which is also ramping up gradually.

The decision on phase two of Insoluble Sulphur expansion shall be taken in the next few months, depending on the offtake growth, demand visibility and overall market scenario. As mentioned in the last quarter, the operations of the company, which include the chemical business of Insoluble Sulphur, Sulphuric Acid and Oleum, would be demerged to another company, OCCL Limited. The demerger process is going smoothly as expected as per timeline. This demerger shall enable the management to focus on pursuing revenue growth expansion opportunities and for value unlocking in the respective business verticals in future. Outlook for tire industry remains positive with revival in CapEx spends for capacity additions. Demand from replacement market, especially commercial vehicles, looks strong. Higher government spending for infrastructure, including plans to expand the national highway network by 25,000 kilometers and improve fleet utilization, shall further increase the demand for commercial vehicles.

This indicates improved market sentiment. There has been gradual demand recovery in medium and heavy commercial vehicles with transporters reporting high fleet utilization levels on account of road construction projects and also higher consumption of cement for infrastructure projects. There's been a surge in demand for tippers and tractor trailers. Automotive and tire demand shall improve with the expected moderation in inflationary pressures and improved geopolitical sentiments. The performance of our subsidiary business, Duncan Engineering, has also been improving. Duncan reported top line growth of 51% year-on-year to INR 16.7 crores in Q1 FY 2023. Our operations are running well and profitability has improved to INR 2.2 crores in quarter one FY 2023. Our company believes sustainability is the cornerstone of our business. We have taken initiatives towards waste recycling, water conservation and steps towards energy saving and reducing our carbon footprint.

Our efforts have benefited the company, and we have been recognized by global accreditations. We are proud to have been awarded EcoVadis Gold Sustainability Rating again in 2022 and also got recognized as a Responsible Care Logo by the Indian Chemical Council. We will continue with our efforts towards our planet, our customers and community at large. Now I would like to hand over the line to Mr. Anurag Jain to update you on the financial performance of the company. Thank you.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Thank you, Akshat. I will now take you all through the standalone financials of the company. The total income for Q1 FY 2023 stood at INR 137.2 crores as compared to INR 110.8 crores in Q4 FY 2022. A quarter-over-quarter growth of 24% and stood at INR 86.5 crores in Q1 FY 2022, a year-over-year growth of 59%. Growth was on account of high volumes and better realization. EBITDA for Q1 FY 2023 stood at INR 27.7 crores as compared to INR 16.7 crores in Q4 FY 202022, a growth of 66% and against Q1 FY 22, which was INR 22.8 crores, a growth of 21%.

Margins improved by 510 basis points at 20.2% in Q1 FY 2023. Raw material prices were on increasing trend in April-June 2022 quarter. However, price increases which the company got from the customers has led to improvement in margins. Profit after tax for Q1 FY 2023 stood at INR 14 crore as compared to INR 4.3 crore in Q4 FY 2022. A Q-O-Q growth of 223% and year-on-year growth of 12% against 12.5 crore for Q1 FY 2022. PAT margins were up by 630 basis points at 10.2% in Q1 FY 2023. With this, I would like to open the floor for questions and answers.

Operator

Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone phone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Limited. Please go ahead.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. Sir, just a couple of questions from my side. Sir, first if you can share the industry degrowth figure in FY 2021. Like in FY 2020, the industry has degrown by roughly 4%, so similar kind of figures with FY 2021 and what was the growth in FY 2022?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Which industry are you talking about?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

FY 20

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Which industry? When you say industry degrowth, which industry are you talking about?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Insoluble Sulphur.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Well, in India there has not been any degrowth in terms of quantity that we have sold. I cannot say that in India there has been any degrowth. The global-

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Global degrowth has happened, no? That's why I'm asking.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Hello?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yes, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

If you look at the global figures, there have been improvement in some geographies. In some geographies there has been a little downtrend. It is very difficult to get the actual figures for last year as to how much Insoluble Sulphur has grown or degrown from last year.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, also so, just adding to this only, so have we lost our market share over the last two years considering the decline in the global demand? Like I believe, sir, our market share was roughly 12% in FY 20-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

In our reckoning we have not lost market share.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Decline to 10%.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

In our reckoning, we have not lost market share.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. The market share is constant. [audio distortion] .

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah, yeah. It is in the same range.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, onto the competitor adding capacity. China Sunshine has recently added around 30,000 tons and we have added around 5,500 tons. As per the demand supply dynamic, now supply is a bit of a surplus as compared to demand. Suppose if we increase the utilization and try to penetrate into the global geographies, do we have to take

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Do we what?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Take a cut in the realizations considering[audio distortion].

Operator

Mr. Khetan, your voice is breaking. I would request you to use your handset to ask a question.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Hello?

Operator

Please proceed.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yes, sir. Sir, my question was onto the China Sunsine. They have added capacity of 30,000 tons and we had added around 5,500 tons. Now supply is a bit more of a surplus as compared to demand. Now if we increase the utilization and try to penetrate into the global geography, do we have to take a cut in the realizations going ahead?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, I don't think that our penetration into global geographies is strategized on cutting prices.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

How would the demand supply dynamic change, sir, for the next two years?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We do expect that there should be growth in the global market and it should be more than normal to make up for the de-growth that happened or the zero growth that happened in the last two years, so that should be there. Secondly, obviously, we are planning to mark our presence in those geographies where our presence is less than what it should be.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Focal geography would.[audio distortion] Hello?

Operator

Sir Khetan, your voice is breaking. We cannot hear you.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

I think that's all [audio distortion] .

Operator

I would request you to please rejoin the queue. A reminder to all the participants to press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Suresh Jain from ND Investments. Please go ahead.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Good morning and congratulations on good set of numbers. I have these two questions. The one is my understanding of the insoluble sulphur industry, where based on the prevailing prices, a greenfield expansion, commitment or starting a new plant is economically not viable. Is that understanding is correct even under the current prevailing conditions?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes, I mean, that is our understanding, that in the current scenario, starting a greenfield project is not something which should be economically viable.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Okay. I do not know whether you have this information. The competitor who has come up with 30,000 capacity, is it a greenfield or a brownfield?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's a brownfield expansion. Even there it's a multi-product site.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Even if it was a greenfield, the Insoluble Sulphur is just a part of it. It's expansion where they are doing many products, of which one happens to be Insoluble Sulphur. Also this, they started construction on this, when the industry dynamics are much better. Yes. It is simply got commissioned now. Yes.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

You mean to say if someone has to expand their capacity, so they'll have to look for additional products to commission, you know, to commission a greenfield project?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, I'm not saying that. We are just saying that today it is not viable for a greenfield plant. Brownfield expansion is something which may, one may look at. Greenfield is not viable.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Okay. Sir, at the same time, from the investor presentation, we are getting the information that more and more vehicles are going for radial tires, and radial tires require more of Insoluble Sulphur, and the demand of Insoluble Sulphur is expected to maybe 4% or so growth over next few years. How is this additional demand going to be met if no one is going for additional-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

When we talk about radialization, it is more in the context of the Indian market.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Because that is where it is happening in commercial vehicles.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Second part is when we are even looking at, you know, at a growth rate. Today there is surplus capacity in the market, right?

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

That should be utilized. Third is that if the situation improves, if the margins improve, only then we can look at or somebody can look at greenfield expansions. At current scenario, when we say that the greenfield expansion is not viable, it is always the current scenario.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

I agree.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Things change later on, right?

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Correct. Based on your experience, how much time would it take for this current excess demand to get utilized so that it becomes viable to put up a greenfield?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I'm sorry, we cannot predict this. Difficult to say.

Suresh Jain
Analyst, ND Investments

Difficult to say. Okay. Thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. If you wish to ask a question, you may press star and one now. The next question is from the line of Dhruv Muchhal from HDFC Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Yes, thank you so much. Sir, the first question is if you can provide some sense on the capacity utilization for 1Q and some guidance you can give for the full-year, probably either volumes or capacity utilization?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

In the current year, we are expanding. We are expecting a growth over last year of over 10% in terms of volume. We are looking at a capacity utilization of about 75%-80% this year.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

For this full-year?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

All right. Sir, is it fair to say, I mean, there's some improvement in profitability given the market conditions as you mentioned, but on a per KG basis or per ton basis, what I believe is the how the industry works on a largely the profitability still would be lower and there is still scope of improvement depending upon how the situation evolves. Right, sir?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah, that is true. Yeah. The per metric ton profitability is far lower than historical-

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Historical averages.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah. Even in quarter one it is far lower than what it has been. Even if we don't look at margin and all that, but as you rightly said, we look at the absolute number. It is far lower than what it was.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Sure. Sir, one question was on sulphur, although relatively small for us, but just from an understanding perspective. I was looking at prices of sulphur from China. This is sulphur rock, sulphur prices from China and U.S. There's a wide divergence. I mean, China prices are significantly higher than probably, U.S. prices. The opposite is true for sulphuric Acid. U.S. is significantly higher than China prices. How does the dynamics for us work? What is the right benchmark for us? I'm just trying to understand, you know, how the, you know, the RM and, probably some selling price for us, you know, fluctuates.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The reason that American prices are lower than in China is because China is a net exporter of sulphur. America is—sorry, China is a net importer of sulphur, The U.S. is a net exporter of sulphur. For them, there is no freight incidence, but for China there is a freight incidence which is added to the price. That is the reason why there is a significant difference between sulphur prices The U.S. and China. Same holds true in the reverse manner for sulphuric acid. There is a whole lot more production of sulphuric acid in China than it is in The U.S. That is part one of your question.

As far as we are concerned, most of the pricing in Asia, which includes China as well as India, is roughly based on or gets inspiration from the Middle East prices. What is the, you know, FOB Middle East of sulphur, that is the rough benchmark of all the prices today, over most of Asia and the Mediterranean.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Okay. The ME prices will be very different than what US and China is, or is it, where do they align broadly? I mean, what benchmark would be right for Middle East?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

They can be different, though the general trend would be more or less same in the sense when they are increasing, both will be increasing. When they are decreasing, both can be decreasing, but it will be different.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Because of the geographical, this thing, you know. You have Canada sitting over U.S., which is surplus in Sulphur, then there is America and the major consumption of Sulphur happens in Asia, and the freight from there is high. That anomaly will always be there.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Okay. Got it. Sure, sir. The last question is you mentioned about the freight cost declining. If I understand correctly, this has been one worry earlier because of the higher freight cost, the exports getting a bit impacted. Do you see that improving and probably also leading to margins going forward? Probably if you can help us, what was the freight cost, say, in some benchmark numbers, what was it earlier? How much has it declined to? How high are they versus, say, for example, the historical averages for now?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The freight cost was increasing and the freight cost in Q1 2023 was marginally higher than Q4 2022. Now in July onward, we are seeing a decline in freight. Now, to quantify is very difficult because in different geographies it's the trend is different, right? The impact is mostly on exports. It would be very difficult for me to, you know, predict how much it will impact us overall. Yes, we are seeing correction and it will help us because that is one cost which we have to absorb when we have to compete in markets outside India.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

All right. Got it. Sir, last quick question is, are there significant IS capacities in Europe? I'm just wondering does this gas situation has any influence on these capacities? Do you see that, you know, in some sense helping us?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

There is one large plant of our competitor in Europe. I would not call a European insoluble sulphur capacity a significant player for the rest of the world. It is significant within Europe.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Okay. They are mainly for local market. Sir, is it possible to quantify what size that would be?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

You know, there's no formal data. I think it could be how much? 25,000 around 20,000, 25,000 tons. I think maybe total Insoluble Sulphur capacity in Europe could be as much as 50,000.

Dhruv Muchhal
Equity Research Analyst, HDFC Mutual Fund

Okay. Got it. Sure, sir. Thank you so much, and all the best. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one. The next question is from the line of Anurag Patil from Roha Asset Managers. Please go ahead.

Anurag Patil
Equity Research Analyst, Roha Asset Managers

Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, Sulphur prices in last one month have corrected significantly compared to other chemicals. Do you think this much correction is sustainable in the next couple of quarters, or you expect the Sulphur prices to bounce back relatively?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

You are asking something, Anurag, which is purely opinion. The kind of fall we have taken, of course, we have seen in sulphur prices, is something. After this fall, I think this is a level which could be sustained for some time at least. That would be my reading.

Anurag Patil
Equity Research Analyst, Roha Asset Managers

Okay. Sir, on the demand side, particularly on the export geographies, how do you see the next couple of quarters panning out?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We have got sustainable demand for couple of quarters. In fact, our sales in the last quarter was better than the previous quarter.

Anurag Patil
Equity Research Analyst, Roha Asset Managers

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

And, uh-

Anurag Patil
Equity Research Analyst, Roha Asset Managers

Thank you.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

However, we should see increasing demand from Q3 onwards or supply in export. We are expecting that we should see a bump up from Q3 onwards.

Anurag Patil
Equity Research Analyst, Roha Asset Managers

Okay, sir. Thank you. Thank you very much. That's it from my side.

Operator

Thank you. Reminder to all the participants to press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Anjana Shah from Shah Investments. Please go ahead. Mr. Shah, I have unmuted your line. Please proceed with your question.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

Yes, ma'am. Thank you for this opportunity, sir. A couple of questions from my end. Firstly, sir, I would want to know, you know, how the raw material prices have been. Like, they've been on an increasing trend over last few months. What is the current price of sulphur and coating oil? Also, how do you think this trend would be going ahead?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

If you look at the June quarter, that was the highest price. In the month of July, the raw material price were equal to what was there in June. August onward, they should come roughly to the level of the Q4 FY 2022. I'm talking of raw material prices as a whole, right?

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

Yes, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We are expecting them to be marginally higher than Q4 2022 in, I mean, currently, if you look at August.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

Sure, sir. That helps. Also, sir, if you could tell me what are the freight costs of the company, for the current quarter?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, for the current quarter, it will be. It is dynamic. It will be very difficult for me to.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

Have you seen any moderation in the costs, sir?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes, we have seen moderation in the current quarter in the costs.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

All right. Sir, if you could provide some percentage breakdown of regular grade, high stability grade and special grade of Insoluble sulphur sold?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

From which-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, no.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

From which grade type?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's not possible to give you that breakup of regular grade versus this.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

Okay. Sir, can you just tell us, which grade type do we usually have a higher demand?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

All grades, depending on the geographies, have their own demand, you know. In certain geographies, certain grades have demand, in others, the others have demand.

Anjana Shah
Director, Shah Investments

All right. Sure, sir. Thank you. That was really helpful.

Operator

Thank you. Before we take the next question, a reminder to all the participants to press star and one. The next question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Limited. Please go ahead.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Ma'am, is my voice audible now?

Operator

Yes, please proceed.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yes. Sir, my question is on the recently expanded 5,500 tons per annum capacity. Can we expect it to reach the utilization by this fiscal end, or will it take by, say, H1 FY 2024 also, considering the demand is a bit less as compared to-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What currently we are looking at is that we should achieve optimum capacity utilization in next year.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

You are saying, so by this fiscal end, FY 2023, we can reach that?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

FY 2023/2024.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay, 2024 you are talking. Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

FY 2023-2024.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Sir, on to the situation on the European front, now we are witnessing that the gas supply cut from Russia to Europe has been intensified. Are you getting any increased orders or inquiries from Europe, considering if there is a significant gas cut, is there an opportunity to increase export to the European market?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, no, there is no connection. Gas cut has no connection to supply of Insoluble Sulphur. The good thing is that we have not yet seen any deceleration in demand there.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. The supply has been impacted. Is there any news on that front, like you have witnessed over the past, you know, past month?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

That we have not seen any deceleration in demand as yet.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Onto the supply side also, so there wouldn't be anything at this point?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Supply side means?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Means the local manufacturers are not cutting down on supply.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's very difficult to predict, you know, how this gas and all will affect our competitors. I don't want to comment on it.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sir, what would be our assumption on the margins and growth roughly for the next three years, if we can quantify something?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, we cannot quantify.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Sure, sir. Thank you, sir.

Operator

Thank you. You may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Raj Vaswani from Athena Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Hello. Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. Couple of questions from my end. Firstly, I would like to know, you mentioned that we have taken a hike in realizations. Could you kindly quantify, like a ballpark figure, what's the percentage hike on a Q-O-Q basis?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, no. We do not disclose our selling prices. I can say that in spite of increased prices from Q1, sorry, Q4 of last year to Q1 of this year, increase in raw material costs, our margins have improved over the absolute minimum margins that we got in Q4 FY 2022. We have been able to increase our margins, and while they are still very short of the optimum margins that we had earlier, and that is reflected in the results.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Fair enough.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

When we talk with our customers, we have told them, "Look, these are the raw material increases." They have listened to us sympathetically and given us price increases in Q1 of this year and Q2 of this year as well.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. On the volume front, what would be the percentage increase roughly?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

From which quarter?

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Quarter-on-quarter basis, June quarter. Ballpark figure would also do, roughly.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Between 20% to 25% increase.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. What would be our current capacity utilization number, roughly speaking?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I'm sorry. I need to correct myself.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Sure.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I got it from the previous quarter. We are talking about the trailing quarter, right?

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Yeah, correct.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I got it from previous quarter. That would be around 12%.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. What would be our capacity utilization, roughly speaking?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, I mean, you want to increase working, but if you get the quantity, we do not disclose that, so...

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay, fair enough. Roughly speaking, what will be our current cash position?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What do you mean by cash position?

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Cash on books, balance sheet as on June 22.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's a comfortable position. As on 31st March , I had INR 80 crore in debt and liquid funds.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Another INR 32 crore in corporate deposits. That was the position as on 31st March. About INR 112 crore.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. Has there been any increase in debt also, like any significant increase?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, no. There has been no increase in debt. It is at the same level as it was on 31st March. In spite of increase in working capital loans because of the repayment of long-term loans, the overall debt position remains the same.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. If you could please quantify, like roughly speaking, what percentage of the increase in top line has come from credit sales and what is cash like? What I'm trying to get to is how much has our accounts receivable gone up, roughly?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Most of my insoluble sulphur sales, but most all of my insoluble sulphur is credit sales. 95%, 97%, 98%.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay, got it. My last question would be like from a three to five-year perspective, what's the game plan of the company? Like where do you see the majority of the growth coming from? And what would be our mainly, I mean, decisions taken on the capital allocation front? Like would there be any sorts of buyback coming forward? Because given that now only phase two CapEx is remaining, so I believe the company would be flush with cash.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Let me answer it and to the first one is that we are looking at a very good growth in sulphur in the domestic market. That is there. In the international market also we are looking at new geographies. We are looking at growth from both domestic as well as international market. To your second point, I think you know that we have already gone for demerger.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Correct.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Our investments, et cetera, will be there in the demerged company.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. Any buyback on the cards so far?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

You know, that is something we will look after once demerger happens. Of course, you know that in demerger we are also splitting the shares from INR 10 to INR 2.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Correct.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

You mentioned we'll be expanding in new geographies. Will this be in the existing products or do we plan to like?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, in existing.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

get into any new product line like

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We are talking about Insoluble Sulphur, existing products.

Raj Vaswani
Analyst, Athena Investment Advisors

Okay. Fair enough. That's all from my side. Thanks a lot.

Operator

Thank you. Participant Smith has stolen one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Vignesh Iyer from Sequent Investments. Please go ahead.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Hello. Congratulations on very good set of numbers in challenging circumstances. I would like to know that the other expenses part, if I'm not wrong, includes the power and fuel expenses.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

There is power and fuel, freight, and packing. These are the three major heads which are included.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Yes.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

in other expenses. Yes.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Other expenses saw some increase when compared with Q3 FY 2022 to Q4 FY 2022. Now from Q4 FY 2022, which was INR 40 crores, it is now around INR 45 crores. If you could, if the freight part of it has seen some relaxation in terms of pricing, can you tell me how much of that energy cost escalation have you seen on quarter-on-quarter?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Let me correct you. The freight relaxation that we have seen is in the current quarter. That is from July onwards.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Oh, okay. Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

In the last quarter, there was a marginal increase in freight, not a decrease. There was an increase in freight in last quarter versus the trailing quarter.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The overall increase that you see in other expenses over the trailing quarter is because of increase in these costs also, that is energy and freight and packing.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Energy cost also saw some increase from quarter four to quarter one, right?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes. They also saw an increase on a quarter basis.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Overall, of course, there was an increase because production was high.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

That is the increase in volume. That is understandable. What is the state of energy cost as in July, as the month has already passed by? For the time, is there still an increase in energy cost or it is stable?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It has been from June to July, there has not been any significant increase. There's more or less stable.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Okay. You mean, marginal or stable? Marginal increase or stable per ton, right?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Sir, the price, so if I'm not wrong, before you had told there was no price hike taken, or it was dependent more on international markets. The price hike that has been taken in Q1. I actually was late for the call. I'm assuming that there was some price hike taken in Q1, right?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes, we did take a price increase in Q1, and that is why in spite of increase in our input costs, our margins improved from Q4 FY22.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Right. Any hike taken in month of July as such?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes. We have.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Another round of hike has been taken in July, right?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Yeah. Okay. That's all from my side.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

To clarify one thing on this price hike, we should not take Q4 as a base for any kind of a performance analysis of the company. From historic standards, our margins are still much lower on absolute terms as I outlined before. We should not look at this on a quarter-over-quarter basis and, you know, start comparing with Q4.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

No, I was just, sir, only on the cost part I wanted to understand if the per ton cost has increased.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I'm just preferring making a general comment. I'm just taking the opportunity.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

-to make a general comment that-

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Q4 performance actually we should, you know, not factor in while, when analyzing our company, and it should be treated as an anomaly quarter. Overall performance, we are still far behind where we should be.

Vignesh Iyer
Equity Research Analyst, Sequent Investments

Right. Yeah. Thank you. That's all from my side.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Atul Kothari from Progrow Innovations Private Limited. Please go ahead.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I have a couple of questions. First of all, what is the scenario on the supply side for Insoluble Sulphur? I mean, are there any new capacities coming up globally?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

There are some capacities which have been added, and the capacities are more than demand. We are not aware currently of any further addition of capacity which are in the pipeline.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Okay, sir. Sir, has our competition taken any price increase?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I mean, I think we have mentioned this earlier also. Because of unprecedented increase in raw materials, everybody has had to go and take a price increase, right?

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Okay. Sir, it is approximately how much percentage?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No. That is, that varies from geographies to geographies, so I will not be at liberty to disclose that.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Oh, not an issue, sir. Sir, with North America being our target market, so, how is the demand traction from North America has been? And again, we have added any new customers?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We are on track to achieve our targeted sales by the year-end from North America.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Sir, have you added any new customers there?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

It's basically, you know, it's basically new plants. There are global tire companies, and they have plants in America as well. Most of the sales comes from, you know, approval from their plants in U.S. Customers remain the same, but they have plants in U.S. as well, right?

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Sir, lastly, sir, the capacity expansion of Sulphuric Acid for 42,000 tons has been completed. The commissioning of the capacity started from eighteenth April, if I'm not wrong.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Can we expect this line to fully ramp up by FY 2023?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes, we should expect it to be fully ramped up by FY 2023.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Sir, what would be the revenue potential from this line for FY 2023?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What should be?

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

What should be the revenue potential, full for FY 2023?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The revenue potential is very, very misleading in case of sulphuric acid because it, you know, works on a raw material plus basis. For example, if sulphur prices were, say, INR 40,000, the revenue could be INR 15,000 per metric ton. Now if sulphur prices come to INR 10,000, the revenue could come down to INR 6,000 per metric ton.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Okay. At current prices, how much revenue can we expect in FY 2023?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No best way to give the revenue potential to you.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Okay, sir. Sir, the product which will be manufactured from this line, they would basically cater to which regions domestically?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Which line?

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

The product which are manufactured from this line of.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Which line?

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

of sulphuric Acid of 42,000 tons.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

It would cater to which regions domestically?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Okay. No, the region is going to remain the same as earlier, so that's North India.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Okay, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Yeah.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The region is North India.

Atul Kothari
Analyst, Progrow Innovations Private Limited

Thank you very much. Okay, sir. Thanks. Thank you very much, sir. That's all from my end.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this would be the last question for today, which is from the line of Sarang Doshi from Intress Capital. Please go ahead.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Hi, firstly, thank you so much for the opportunity. I have three questions.

Operator

Mr. Doshi, there is a lot of disturbance from your background. I would request you to go to a quieter place and talk, please.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Hello, sir.[audio distortion]

Operator

Mr. Doshi, there is a disturbance from your line.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Is it better now? Is it better now?

Operator

Yes. Please proceed.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Yeah, yeah. Firstly, thank you so much for the opportunity. I have three questions. One is, you know, currently the industry is going through a very difficult times. I mean, there is supply surplus, freight costs, raw material costs are on the higher side. I just want your view. You know, you said from Q3 onwards, there will be a robust demand on the export and domestic front. How do you see dynamics shifting? You know, you see dynamics shifting in terms of demand, from FY 2024 onwards.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

What I said was that Q3 onward our export shares, sales should increase.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

That is because, you know, we should be starting exports to newer customers, Q3 onwards.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The demand scenario is something which is going to unfold as it is going to unfold, at the percentages it's going to unfold. These are two, not entirely related to increase in demand.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Understood. Thank you. My second question is, our normalized gross margin, you know, historically if I check is around 70%-72%, and currently it is around 60%-62%. You see this, you know, moderation in commodity prices, in FY 2024, we can attain those levels of, gross margin?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I don't think we will be able to attain fully our historical margin in this year, though we might see a little improvement if the commodity prices help us. Achieving them fully is something which looks difficult at this point.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Okay. Understood. Thirdly, sir, this is regarding the demerger process. Sir, I'm not able to fully understand. Just I want some clarity on, you know, regarding the cash and cash equivalent. So you said in the coming months we will get some more clarity. If you can throw some light on how much portion, you know, how much cash will be reflected in the chemical division.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

No, that is something we cannot predict as of today, you know.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

That is something which will be decided at the time of demerger. What is the requirement of each business, accordingly, it will be decided.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Okay. How much would be our, you know, target dividend payout? Sir, if you have anything in mind you can share.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

We have dividend policy that says that 60% of our PAT is subject to a ceiling of our free cash flow for the year. We are committed to that.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Great. Okay, that's it from my side. Thank you so much, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

The policy is on the website, so you can read it over there. We'll be following that policy.

Sarang Doshi
Analyst, Intress Capital

Yes. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. As that was the last question for today, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka for closing comments.

Akshat Goenka
Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

I take this opportunity to thank everyone for joining on the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly reach out to us or Strategic Growth Advisor or Investor Relations Advisors. Thank you once again.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. On behalf of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.

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