Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Q2 and H1 FY 2021 Earnings Conference Call of Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star 10 zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka, Promoter and Joint Managing Director of Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited.
Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Goenka.
Good morning, and a very warm welcome to everyone. Along with me, I have Mr. Anurag Jain, our CFO, and SGA, our investor relations advisors. I hope that all of you and your loved ones are keeping safe. Firstly, I would like to inform you that the board of directors has declared an interim dividend of INR 4 per equity share. That is 40% of the face value. We have maintained the same interim dividend as previous years. Coming to the performance of the company, post a subdued performance in quarter one FY 2021, we have seen a strong bounce back in our business trajectory in quarter two. This was on the back of normalization of replacement and OEM demand in domestic as well as international markets.
I would like to update all of you that the operations at both the plants of the company have resumed with all the necessary precautions, adapting to social distancing and other safety measures. Capacity utilization levels are seeing consistent and healthy improvement. Operational efficiency has been restored during the quarter after a dismal Q1. We have recorded an EBITDA growth of 19% year-on-year and PAT growth of 30% year-on-year in quarter two FY 2021. Total income, however, has seen a 6% year-on-year reduction, mainly on account of reduction in asset volume and prices with higher proportion of domestic sales during this quarter. Further, we continue to maintain a robust balance sheet position with net cash on our books, which has helped us successfully navigate several economic cycles. The Indian automobile industry saw a gradual recovery in the quarter gone by.
The recovery is likely to stay strong in anticipation of the festive demand and normalization of supply chains, strong sentiments from the urban market and preference of personal mobility. With another good monsoon and good harvest for the rabi crop, the domestic rural economy is also expected to remain buoyant going ahead. We expect this momentum to sustain going ahead. However, the optimism is subject to any recurrence of COVID-related shutdowns imposed by any government, be it in India or in our export markets in the future. We also need to keep a close watch on demand once the festive season is over to see its sustainability. A brief update on our CapEx plan. Our expansion has faced delay due to suspension of civil and other work during the shutdown period on account of COVID-19 and availability of labor thereafter.
The first phase of insoluble sulphur plant and sulphuric acid plant is expected to be commissioned by end of FY 2021 would be delayed and expected to be commissioned by Q1 FY 2022. OCCL has consistently evolved our technology standards over the last 25 years by investment in professional research and equipment benchmarking with the best standards. We are on a strong footing to deliver sustainable and profitable long term growth with our dominant position in the industry being the only domestic player producing IS with a domestic market share of approximately 60% and approximately 10%-12% of global market share and a marquee customer base. We will be focused on expanding our foothold in markets where we have low penetration over the coming years. Our efforts will continue in streamlining costs, eliminating wastage, and reducing consumption of water in order to remain socially responsible and improve efficiency of operations.
Now, I would like to hand over the line to Mr. Anurag Jain to update you on the financial performance of the company.
Thank you, Akshat. I would first take you all through the standalone financials of the company. Total income for Q2 FY 2021 is INR 81.8 crores as compared to INR 87.5 crores in Q2 FY 2020. Revenues have been impacted on account of lower realization in sulphuric acid on account of lower raw material cost and due to the market distribution being more in the favor of domestic sales. Despite the challenging environment, we have been able to make good volumes. Total income for H1 FY 2021 is INR 128.8 crores compared to INR 182.8 crores in H1 FY 2020. EBITDA for Q2 FY 2021 stood at INR 33.5 crores as compared to INR 28.1 crores in Q2 FY 2020.
Margins have improved on account of reduction in raw material prices and efficiencies achieved through cost control measures which were undertaken. For H1 FY 2021, EBITDA stood at INR 42.5 crores as compared to INR 54.7 crores in H1 FY 2020. Margins for the half year stood at 33%, an improvement of 310 basis points. Profit after tax for Q2 FY 2021 is INR 20.4 crores as compared to INR 15.8 crores in Q2 FY 2020, year-over-year growth of 30%. Our PAT margins for the Q2 FY 2021 have improved by 690 basis points to 24.9%. For H1 FY 2021, PAT stood at INR 21.8 crores. Margin for half year stood at 16.9%. With this, I would like to open the floor for question and answer.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from East India Securities. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. My first question is on the revenue front. Sir, I would like to know, you have said that the revenue decline is mainly due to the decline in the acid volume. On the insoluble sulphur, can you share what is the volume decline or what would be the number of growth and de-growth in this quarter as compared to year-over-year basis?
Revenue has been impacted by a little bit of a volume decline in sulphuric acid, as well as lower sales price without impacting the margins because of lower price of sulphur. Also because the product sales mix of sulphur was more skewed to the domestic sales in the current quarter vis-a-vis the previous quarter. These are the major reasons for our revenue coming down. However, we do not comment on the volumes. I would like to tell you that the insoluble sulphur volumes have been in the same range as they were the previous quarter, same year, previous quarter.
Okay. Sir, second question is that gross margins have expanded quite sharply. Any particular reason like inventory gain or decline in raw material cost?
There are two reasons. One, of course, is that there was a decline in raw material costs for Q1 and we were carrying inventories. After that, now sulphur is again creeping up. During the quarter, we benefited from lower sulphur costs, number one. Number two, we also benefited from lower fixed costs.
Okay. Sir, how much could be the savings in the fixed cost, if you can give a number?
One moment, please. Just give me one moment, please.
You can highlight that the savings in fixed cost is a recurring number, so we can expect this to flow in the next quarter also, or this is just a one-off for this quarter?
No. We have done a saving of about INR 2 crore in fixed cost vis-à-vis last year. Some of it, of course, is one-off. Most of it will be something which we will expect to carry on.
Okay. Sir, post lifting of the lockdown, how is the North American market demand shaping up now?
North American market demand has come back, as has European demand. We are currently seeing a lot of traction in our export markets. In fact, Asia was a bit of a laggard, but even there, the traction has come back. Looking at the subsequent shutdowns, we are always on the watch if it will have any impact. Currently, we have seen the traction coming back in all the export markets, majorly in Europe and also in America.
Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. That's all from my side. I'll join back in the case there's any questions.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Swarna Mukherjee from Edelweiss. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good morning, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. A couple of questions from my side, sir. Firstly, on the profitability side, if I see the profitability of your chemicals segment has improved quite a bit this quarter, even when comparing the margin levels for the last maybe four, five, six quarters. You just mentioned that there is some fixed cost savings that has been there. Apart from that, is there any other factor in terms of, say, maybe higher realization or anything else that you may point out? Because overall what I see is your cost structure apart from raw material costs have broadly remained similar also for some point of time. If you can throw some light on that.
Of course, as I said earlier, that there has been a saving on the raw material front for the quarter, mostly from sulphur. Obviously, there has been some fixed cost saving. There has been interest saving as well because of lesser interest rate and repayment of term loans. These are the three major areas where we have got savings.
Okay. In terms of realizations of insoluble sulphur, how has the trend been, say, as compared to maybe Q4 or Q3? I think Q1 would not be a very pertinent comparison, right?
International prices in rupee terms have remained more or less the same.
Okay. All right. Utilization levels, sir, where are we? Would we be able to grow our volumes if there is more demand coming forward before the CapEx is commissioned?
Yes, we will be able to do that.
Okay. Any color you can throw on, sir, volume growth outlook, what you see maybe over the next one year?
I cannot comment for the next one year, but we are looking at volume growth currently, as it appears. We are looking at a volume growth for the next quarter.
Okay. That is primarily going to come from the domestic market?
Both domestic as well as international.
All right, sir. Thank you so much. That's all from my side.
Thank you. A reminder to the participants, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one now. The next question is from the line of Anubhav Rawat from Monarch Networth. Please go ahead.
Hello. Yeah. Hi. Good morning, sir. I hope everything is safe on your end. Just a couple of questions from my side. Sir, in third quarter FY 2020, you had actually quantified the sales drop. Will you be able to give us a number as to by how much has the sales dropped due to sulphuric acid and how much the insoluble sulphur?
I didn't get your question. Can you repeat, please?
Sir, can you quantify the sales drop this quarter? In third quarter FY 2020, you had quantified it.
That is what we are saying, that as far as volumes are concerned, our insoluble sulphur sales have been in the same range as the same quarter last year.
Okay. What about sulphuric acid sales?
Has been lower because we had to take a shutdown of about 20 days on account of some work which had to be done because of the expansion which is happening there.
Okay. This around 6% of sales drop is mainly because of sulphuric acid, is it safe to assume?
Yes, a significant part of it is because of sulphuric acid, and the other part is because of the redistribution of sale. This quarter, the domestic sale as a percentage of total sale, has been more than the same quarter previous year. That has also brought down because the delivered price in domestic market is a little bit lower than the international market, because in international market, our delivery costs are much higher and in Indian market, they are less.
Okay, understood. sir, secondly, are we facing any pricing pressure in insoluble sulphur from any of our customers? Have the realizations gone down or is it same? Hello?
Yeah.
Hello?
What is happening, hello?
Yes, sir.
Yes. What is happening is, of course, customers are asking generally for some price revision, as is the case in all areas. With some customers, we have a price contract which has a variable component exchange as well. There, of course, it will automatically adjust for exchange. Overall, they're asking for some pricing decrease, where we are looking at our margins and reacting accordingly.
Understood, sir. Sir, for this phase I expansion, could you give me a number on CapEx? How much have we done, and how much is remaining now?
30th September, we have done approximately INR 75 crores, and there is another INR 75 crores that has to be done for phase I.
Perfect, sir. Just one last question, then I'll come back in the queue. In this quarter, did we see any addition or deletion in our customers?
Nothing specific that would be material.
Would you say status quo in this?
Yes. I would say quarter two was more status quo.
Okay, perfect. Thank you, sir. I'll come back in the queue. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Subham Agarwal from Aequitas Investment. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Sir, my first question was regarding the investments. In the annual report this year, various investments in Category II AIF and Category I AIF was done, Xponentia, Paragon, Fireside Ventures, et cetera. Though amount not material, but I wanted to understand the thought process behind it and how are we looking to go ahead with this investment going forward? Do we want to increase the investment in such AIF? If you can give us some.
Let me try and answer that briefly. It's a bit of a complicated question to answer easily on a call. Yes, the amounts were in the annual report, roughly INR 10 crores or if I remember correctly, and the committed amounts are higher. These amounts are basically slowly paid out over the course of three, four years. The logic behind that is that we have an investment committee that is made, which comprises some external members as well as some internal members of the company. We take judicious calls wherever we think that the risk-weighted return is well in the company's favor. Even in this financial year, some small calls here and there have been taken where we strongly believe that a company and the shareholders.
Sir, what would be the total amount committed and what is the total amount of investment that we are looking at in?
The total amount committed, I think, is mentioned in the annual report. I don't have the figure offhand with me, but I think it could be close. As of today, it could be close to INR 40 crores. I think in the annual report it was around INR 30 crores. Then we would have maybe done further INR 10 crores because you see, this time, these last six, seven months have provided unprecedented opportunity to swoop in and take advantage of certain special situations that may have arose. We have been very judicious about it.
In terms of overall, also if you see, our net worth is roughly INR 500 crores, and our commitment so far has been just around INR 40 crores. That also which is payable over three to four years. As of now, it's quite, I would say, immaterial in terms of the overall balance sheet of the company.
Let us see how things pan out.
Are this investment against identified companies or just in the fund and that will be invested accordingly going forward?
I would say that the bigger ones are in funds as opposed to identified companies. Then there would be certain very small investments in the range of INR 50 lakhs, INR 20 lakhs, INR 1 crore roughly, which would make a portfolio of direct investments in specific companies.
Understood. Sir, my second question was regarding exports. You said in first quarter it was more favored towards domestic markets. What was the proportion of export exactly, if you can give me the number?
Let me clarify that. You see, the way sales are booked is to do with the import terms that they're sold at.
Okay.
Typically there is a lag between dispatch and booking of sales in the export market because in a lot of times the sale is actually booked when the goods reach there. Whereas in the domestic market, the sales can be booked much quicker.
Okay.
I think that is what we were referring to when we spoke.
Okay.
In terms of dispatch, there is no major change to report.
In that case, Q3 number will be much higher.
In that case, I think the Q3 proportion should be okay. You see, because normally what happens is that Q1, the dispatches were less, so naturally the Q2 sales became less in exports. Otherwise it just carries on in a cycle because Q1 dispatch was low, so that skewed the Q2 number a bit. I think it should normalize, the mix and the ratio and all should normalize Q3 onwards.
My third question was regarding CapEx. You have informed that now the CapEx will be commissioned in phase I CapEx by Q1 of FY 2022. Are we seeing any cost overrun and what is the total amount committed for phase I? You have mentioned INR 150 crore out of INR 216. That's right?
That's correct. That was our original estimate to do around INR 150 crores in phase one. As of now we don't emphasize any kind of cost overrun.
Okay
One point I should have made in my opening remarks, and this gives me a good opportunity to make it. We have consistently said over the last two, three calls that we are looking at doing a big captive solar power scheme in Dharuhera.
Okay.
Unfortunately, the permission has not been granted to the developer who was going to supply that to us. That has fallen through. I thought it's important for everybody to know because we had said that we are going to do this. Only last month we heard that the developer did not get permission to execute. This is very unfortunate. That was also part of the project cost.
Okay. What was the megawatt of that and total project cost for that specific solar plant?
This is around INR 2.5 crores. Not much.
Half a megawatt.
No, the megawatt was 5 MW.
5 MW.
It was a 5-MW project where we would have participated in equity.
Oh, got it. Sir, typically in a CapEx, whenever we plan the CapEx, what is the kind of asset turn that we look at and the return ratios?
You cannot look at in just phase one. You have to look at asset turn on the whole INR 216 crore because majority of the work is being done in phase one, whereas the tonnage that would come on screen is similar in both. In terms of returns, we have not worked out fresh returns in the last six months or the last nine months, but we had announced at the time of the project announcement that we were looking at roughly 20% return on capital on this project as a whole, including the different phases in which it would come in and the sales ramp up.
Got it.
And one-
One last question I had about the global demand and supply situation as of now. Do you see any additional capacity coming up in next two years?
Apart from our capacity that is coming up, only one Chinese company had announced that their capacity will come up. Apart from that, no, there is no further capacity that we are aware of.
What would be that total tonnage?
Total tonnage, the Chinese company said that they are coming out with 30,000 tons, which should be operational the next six months or three months odd. Our CapEx is around 11,000, 12,000 odd in phase one, which will come in another six to nine months. Apart from that, no, we have not heard of any other capacity expansion happening. On the contrary, we have actually heard of some of our competitors reducing capacity by shutting some old plants.
Okay. That would be Eastman and Shikoku, right?
Yeah. I don't want to make specific comments.
Okay. No worries. Fair enough. I think that's it from my side, sir. Thank you so much.
Yeah, sure.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shashank Kanodia from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good afternoon, sir. A couple of questions from my end. Sir, this tonnage capacity, maintaining the same grade of supply in insoluble sulphur or it's going to be a tad lower grade?
I couldn't understand your question clearly. Please can you repeat?
Yeah. Sir, you mentioned that the 30,000 tons is the additional capacity being put in by the Chinese company, right?
Yes.
Normally, in our case, China is not a competition, right? They produce low grade insoluble sulphur, whereas we produce high grade. This 30,000 tons, is it the same grade that we produce or it's going to be a low grade carbon in soluble sulphur?
This 30,000 tons is going to be similar to what we are currently producing. You see, they are selling it. They are selling it in China and all that, and depending on what strategies people employ, it could create some more capacity in the Chinese market, and that could have spillover effects in other geographies there.
Right. Sir, secondly, you mentioned in the initial opening remarks that the insoluble sulphur volumes were flat on year-over-year basis, right? In sum total.
Sorry, I can't hear you very clearly.
Opening remarks you mentioned that the insoluble sulphur volumes were flat on year-over-year basis, right?
Correct.
If you could break the volume between domestic and export in terms of just the growth numbers.
Roughly. Domestic in the quarter was in the range of 40%-50%, and the rest were export. Let me say roughly 45%.
Sir, I'm talking about the growth numbers.
No, we said that the Q2 year-over-year was roughly the same.
Right.
As a whole as a sales tonnage. Roughly the same.
Sir, what about the tonnage in domestic and exports in terms of growth numbers? If you can help us understand? I'm basically coming from the fact that.
On volumes we don't really comment so much. We try to give you a flavor of how the realization was moving and what was the cause of it. Secondly, as Akshat has pointed out, the major reason for this quarter, the domestic sales being higher was because most of the sale which was done in the export market was still in transit. Because it gets booked after a period of, say, 15 days- 40 days, and that will be booked in the coming months and then it will show.
Sir, I'm basically coming from the fact that most of the tire companies are reporting volume growth, right? Our volume growth will be in tandem with what they report, right? We have not lost market share per se.
No. Our volume growth would be in tandem with what the tire companies are having. Yes.
Okay, got it. Secondly, on your raw material front, you mentioned that we had some low cost inventory which benefited us this quarter, right?
Yes.
Sir, last quarter your RM to sales was roughly 30%, this quarter it's 17%. Normally it's a range of 25%- 26%. Going forward, do you see that we will be coming back to the 25%- 26% range or it can be tad lower?
No, I think it would go back to that kind of a percentage range. In the first quarter we had opening stock of higher cost inventory, and we got the benefit in the second quarter of a lower cost inventory opening stock because of the lower prices of sulphur in Q1.
Thank you. Sir, on the EBITDA margin, sir, you have been maintaining at the long term range which is roughly 25%-28%, right?
Right.
Will that remain the same or sir it remains around 15?
No, we would like to maintain the same guidance on EBITDA, long term EBITDA margin.
Okay. Sir, recently, the government has capped some incentives under the MEIS export scheme, right? Just wanted to check, does it impact us or anything that we should bother about it?
It will impact us because that is something that we had been booking in our profits for the last two years and including in the first six months of this year, we have booked it in our P&L, that will stop.
That amount was roughly 2% of export sales?
Anurag, please help with the rest.
It's not 2% of export sales as such, it's 2% of the FOB value of export sales.
I think in quantum-
About 1.7% of the export sales.
We're booking roughly INR 3 odd crores every year.
Okay.
Anurag, is that correct?
I think they put INR 3.7 crores in the last year.
Yeah. Okay. that would.
Sir, have you been able to mitigate it through any price increase for the international customers?
No, no pricing increases.
This brings margin to some extent.
Sorry, I couldn't hear that. Please repeat the question.
It could benefit margin to some extent, right? This loss of INR 3- INR 4 odd crores.
Yeah. This would come from us, I think. This loss of INR 3- INR 4 crores would come from us.
Okay, good. Sir, that's all from my side, sir. Wish you all the best. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Kunal Mehta from Vallum Capital. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Thank you very much for the opportunity. This is my first call for Oriental Carbon, so pardon me if my questions are a bit fundamental. Sir, I have two, three questions. I just want to understand the current prospects a bit better. This quarter, could you please help us understand the demand, which you mentioned that the volumes were stable. Could you help us understand that, the split between what sort of business we're getting from replacement market and what is the sales to new OEMs, and is it any different from the trend which we have seen in the previous quarter, especially the previous quarter last year? Any qualitative trend would also be very helpful. That is, you may refrain from giving any numbers, it's fine.
No, no. See, the thing is that we sell our insoluble sulphur to the tire companies. Now they sell the tires, whether they sell it in the replacement market or to the new car OEMs is something that is at their end. We will not be directly knowing about it. Obviously, if you look at the trend of how the tires go, how much percentage go to replacement market, and how much percentage go to OEMs, that is roughly you can take it as a ballpark figure for our consumption also.
Okay, understood. Even historically, this trend has been, you're mentioning that our trend, that our sales would also be in the same trend as the market share of OEM, I mean, the new tires and the replacement tires. That's the way to put it?
Yes. We sell our product to the tire companies. They make tires. Now, where they choose to make, there are some companies which are better in the replacement market, there are some companies which have more market share with the OEMs. According to that, you take the industrial distribution, that will be our distribution.
Sure. Secondly, I wanted to understand, how do you see this quarter, I think, across the whole entire auto chain, I mean, across the whole value chain, we have seen, I would say, good recovery because the inventory had to be built up for the Diwali season and everybody is thinking that some success would happen. Just wanted to understand, sir, how do you see your order book and operations, at least for the next few coming quarters? I mean, is there any visibility you have that this sort of volumes which you have seen in Q2, at least we could see it for the next two, three quarters? That's the second question.
For Q3, our order book is looking very strong, and we hope it will continue like this in Q4 and onwards. Regarding the specific question about whether this is pent-up demand and how things happen January onwards, it's anybody's guess because I don't think even the auto companies, let alone the tire companies, can answer that question. Yeah, today if you ask, the order book looks robust.
Sure. The final question I have is that, now we have this existing base business and now we are adding capacity. I don't know if I think you mentioned that in two phases. I mean, 55,000 and 55,000 installation-
5,500 and 5,500.
Oh, I'm sorry. Pardon me. 5,500 and 5,500 in the next two phases. I mean, as far as the auto cycle is concerned, we are right now at almost near the, I would say somewhere above the bottom. This capacity addition which you have thought of, I just want to understand the rationale behind this, that do we expect that over the next four, five years, this sort of capacity? I'm sure, of course, that is the plan, but how do you see the ramp of this capacity? Right now the recovery in autos is still, I mean, not just in India, across the globe, people are guiding for at least two more years of auto down cycle. Any views on this would be very helpful. How should we see the ramp up of this capacity, phase I, phase II?
Let me put it this way. The situation is very dynamic, and it has to be looked at. At the time when we started this expansion, that time it looked very robust and we were very confident of how things would go. After that, as you know, last year, 2019 was a big downer for the auto industry, COVID came.
Yes
We were already, and thankfully, I may say right now, we were already committed to the project, so there was no question of stalling it or coming back. Now if you ask me today, the situation looks quite robust and we feel confident that the phase I that we are putting up could be ramped up in appropriate time. It all depends on the situation.
Sure.
If you ask me today, yes, we are confident of ramping it up in appropriate times.
Sure. I think in a lot of this, given the main product focus that we have, and which is a similar product where we have a huge market share globally and especially in India.
We don't have huge market share. We have only approximately 10%, 11%, 12%.
Okay. Sir, here does the CapEx cost of the plant give you an advantage? If yes, if it does give you an advantage, how much of an advantage could it be? If you could set up a facility for, say, something like INR 250 crores, given the capacity you're trying to add, what could be the CapEx for somebody in China and some other, maybe probably in the U.S., if somebody would have to add the similar sort of capacity? Any advantage do we have? I'm sure there would be some advantage.
It would be difficult to comment on everybody's thing. For example, China Sunsine is a listed company and their figures are publicly available, so you can use that as a reference point. Apart from that, it depends whether somebody is setting up greenfield or brownfield. That obviously has a big impact on the project cost. Everybody has slightly different technologies with which they set things up and different parameters. Some people have higher engineering costs, some people have higher CapEx costs, some people have higher land costs. It's very different. It's very difficult to say. What I can say is that our cost structure of setting up capacities is very competitive.
Got it, sir. Thank you very much for the comments. Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pritesh Chheda from Lucky Investments. Please go ahead.
Sir, just a clarification on one of your comments. Sum total, the net capacity addition in the system will be how much? 30,000 is what China Sunsine is adding, 11,000 is what you are adding, and some players are shutting down. Sum total capacity addition over the next two years will be what?
Look, the figures of what is shutting down and how much would not be correct for me to give out like this because it's not some concrete information.
Any educated guess that you want to share?
No.
Okay, let's say this 41,000 ton capacity which is getting added, what is it as a percentage of the current or, let's say, last year's demand?
As a percentage of last year's demand, I think this should be in the range of 10%-15%.
Okay.
15%. More like 15%.
Okay. Of the total world demand, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Of last year. 2019.
Okay. Just another clarification. The INR 250 crore project that we are putting is for 11,000-
Not INR 250. INR 215.
Okay, 215. INR 215 crore will lead to 11,000 tons of capacity, right?
It will also lead to 150 tons per day of sulphuric acid capacity.
Okay. The same site has the scope for brownfield or this is-
No, this is our last brownfield. After this, all brownfield opportunities for us are over.
Okay. This is a brownfield. Okay. Thank you very much, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pankaj Bobade from Axis Securities. Please go ahead.
Thanks a lot for taking my questions. Just wanted to know what are the timelines for this additional capacities which you are building going on stream?
The first phase should go on stream in Q1 2021/2022, and the second phase would start immediately after that. That should be towards the end of Q2, if everything goes as we are hoping that it will go now.
Sir, I missed it. Q1 2022, right?
Sorry?
Q1 2022 or 2021?
The Q1 2021/2022, I said.
Q1 2022, right? April to June of FY 2021.
Right.
That would be first phase of 5,500.
Yes.
Thereafter?
Thereafter, if everything is as it is now, then we would be starting for the next phase, and it should be operational by the end of the year 2022.
That is Q4 2022.
Yes.
Roughly. Q3 2022, sorry. Hello?
Yes.
That will be Q3 2022, right?
That will be Q3 2022/2023, yes.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Riddhesh Gandhi from Discovery Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, congratulations on your numbers. Just had a question with regards to all the incremental capacity which is coming online, including ours. Do we see potential extreme pressure on pricing to actually fill up our incremental capacity?
Currently, the capacities that we are adding are more focused towards the market where we have little presence or big players where we have little presence. We do not foresee a very specific pricing pressure as such for these new quantities.
Got it. Actually, kind of going into the rest of FY 2021, do we expect to be able to retain our EBITDA per metric ton on an absolute basis? I understand the revenues may go up and down based on the RM costs.
That is what our effort is, that we retain our EBITDA on per metric ton basis. When you say EBITDA per metric ton, sorry. If you are talking about EBITDA per metric ton basis-
We would like to again reiterate our commitment, which is that on total, our long-term commitment is laid 30%.
Got it. Wouldn't this actually slightly go up because the exchange rate should actually help us also in terms of EBITDA ton, in terms of absolute as opposed to percentage, because the percentage may not be accurate if we have to pass on raw material increases and decreases, right?
Raw material increases and decreases are automatically passed on in some cases where we have long-term contracts, formula-based contracts. In other contracts, the pricing is more or less stable, until there is a very substantial change in raw material costs, then they are passed on on the date of revision, which are either on six monthly or quarterly basis.
Got it. The approval process for our new plant, is it going to be a fresh approval process or we would already have client approvals for?
I think we would already have existing approvals because it's part of the same site. I don't think we would need fresh approvals.
Got it. The only last recommendation is, look, I appreciate and I am sure you guys are excellent investors as well, but our only suggestion is that as opposed to being opportunistic with AIF investments, et cetera, I think it would just be helpful if you focus on the business and any incremental free cash flow is returned either through dividends or then just buy back your own stock as opposed to actually punting around is my only suggestion, but I will leave that to you guys.
Fair enough. I think your point is well taken and appreciated.
Okay. All right. Thanks, and all the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ronak Gupta from Clarion Enterprises. Please go ahead.
Hi. Can you throw some light on your borrowings and your debt for the next one to two years? Are you looking to borrow more? How is it going to be for the next 12- 24 months?
Obviously, we have a line of credit approved for the project, we are going to utilize that line of credit. At the same time, there would be some repayments. For the first half year, there were less repayments because of the moratorium that we had. The total long-term borrowing, which was at INR 109 crores last year, that is on 31st March 2020, we expect it to go up to INR 140 odd crores by the end of this year.
The year after that?
The year after that, it should not go up much because there will be repayments, and of course, that would set off any new loan that we take.
What about your short-term borrowings?
Short-term borrowings are basically working capital that we use in terms of pre-shipment credit and FBP. We are not utilizing any CC limit per se as of now, and our short-term would continue in that line only.
That would basically increase as your capacity and your utilization increases.
Yeah. That is right. That would increase in line with our sales. Normally, we are only financing our export sales because that comes at a cheaper price in terms of foreign currency loans. We are using the Foreign Bill Purchase mechanism and PC mechanism for that.
Okay. One more thing, as an investor and a shareholder in your company, it really concerns me when you say you are investing directly into equities, into direct companies. You've been doing that in the last few years also. In your balance sheet, it always shows up as a part of a fund, as you are investing in a fund. That is still okay, but investing in equities really, as a shareholder, makes me uncomfortable. I just wanted to get that clarified.
I'd like to clarify two things here. Firstly, we have never invested in equities before or currently, or have any plans to do so in future. I'm referring to public equities. In the past also, we have never invested in equities, and that is the reason it has never shown up. Maybe I wasn't clear earlier when I mentioned direct equity, I did not mean it to be in a public market. Basically, it is kind of a fund itself, but sometimes in the structuring, it shows up as direct, and these are very small amounts. Please be rest assured, we have no intention of investing in public markets from the company, either in the past or in the future or currently.
Okay. Got it. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Dhruv Muchhal from HDFC Asset Management. Please go ahead. The line for the current participant has dropped. We move to the next question, which is from the line of Apurva Mehta from AM Investments. Also, we would request the participants to limit questions to one per participant. Mr. Mehta, your line is unmute mode. You can go ahead, please.
Yes, sir. Congrats on a good set of numbers. Just wanted to ask that are we still looking for solar power contracts? Nowadays it's much cheaper than where people are looking for solar as an alternative power.
Certainly, we have already got rooftop solar, we are looking to see how we can do that more. Unfortunately, the Haryana government withdrew the captive power scheme. It's more a regulatory issue as opposed to us, because we had everything signed and at a very good rate. It really depends on the regulatory environment from state to state.
Okay.
Yes, we will certainly be on the lookout.
On the margin front, we should do well because of the currency gain which is there, because currently the majority of our exports are on the European side, where the euro has smartly moved up almost 8%-10%. That is the right way to assume that our margins will be of elevated levels for the next two quarters, at least?
First of all, our sale is more or less divided between dollars and euros.
Okay.
So
Okay.
It's not very prudent to talk about margins based on currencies because, as I've already said that there are other things in play. Obviously, raw material cost also goes up if the rupee depreciates, though that is a smaller part of the total kitty. I would not like to discuss margins based on the Forex rates, because as I pointed out, there are some long-term contracts which have formulas. It's a mixed bag.
Okay. Are we hedging? Any currency hedgings are there? We do hedging?
Yes, we have a currency hedging policy where we hedge 75% of our net exposure.
Okay.
We have that and we are following that policy.
Okay. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot. Wish you the best.
Thank you. Due to time constraints, that was the last question. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
I take this opportunity to thank everyone for joining on the call. I hope we have been able to address all your queries. For any further information, kindly get in touch with me or Mr. Goenka or Strategic Growth Advisors, our investor relation advisors. Thank you once again.
Thank you. On behalf of Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you.