AG Ventures Limited (BOM:506579)
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Q2 23/24

Nov 6, 2023

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited Q2 FY 2024 earnings conference call. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on beliefs, opinions, and expectations of the company as on date of this call. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Akshat Goenka, Promoter and Joint Managing Director of OCCL. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Akshat Goenka
Joint Managing Director, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Good afternoon, and a very warm welcome to everyone. Along with me, I have Mr. Anurag Jain, CFO, and SGA, our IR advisors. We have uploaded our results and investor presentation on the stock exchanges and company website. Hope each one of you had a chance to go through the same. We are witnessing a challenging global environment characterized by elevated inflation, lower demand, and realization of chemicals globally. During this year, we have witnessed lower export demand from Europe due to the weakening economy, resulting in lower sales volume in the current six months compared to the previous six months. Revenue was lower also due to decrease in sales realization on account of decrease in input costs. However, profits for H2 as well as Q2 are better than last year the same period.

We believe the company is capable of withstanding short-term volatility caused by external factors and will continue to grow going forward as things begin to normalize. In the domestic market, we anticipate growth in IS demand in next year on the account of growth in automotive industry due to expanding vehicle ownership, growth in EVs, and the increasing use of commercial vehicles in logistics and e-commerce, as well as a regularization in commercial tires. The government's emphasis on major infrastructure projects should drive up the demand for heavy commercial vehicles. Considering the prevailing economic conditions, the potential scale of opportunities on the horizon is very high. According to the data published in H1 FY 2024, passenger vehicle sales increased by 6% year-on-year, commercial by 3.3%, and two-wheeler increased by 7%.

The tire industry, Indian tire industry is currently thriving and displaying growth and resilience, fueled by a combination of factors including robust domestic demand, export opportunities, and technological advancements. During the year, we aim to grow our market share by expanding into new areas, like North America, and with expansion, acquisition of new customers. Additionally, we are focused on increasing our revenue share in India. Our ongoing objective remains the increase of our market share on a global level, aiming to raise it from the current 10% to 12%. OCCL has always been focused on delivering stakeholder value, with emphasis on sustainability in line with our commitment. We have received recently the letter for conformance for sustainability procurement management system during the current period. This is a very prestigious award, and very few people have it.

We also have received Great Place to Work second time in a row with higher numbers. The other good development that has happened in this H1 is we have prepaid a lot of our debt with the existing cash flow. The board of directors have declared a interim dividend of INR 7 per equity share of face value INR 10 each of the company. With this, I would like to hand over the line to Mr. Anurag Jain to update you on the financial performance of the company.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Thank you, Akshat. I will take you all through the standalone financials of the company. First, I will give you a highlight of Q2 FY 2024. Total income for Q2 FY 2024 stood at INR 95.7 crores, as compared to INR 123 crores in Q2 FY 2023, a big growth of 32% year-on-year. EBITDA for Q2 FY 2024 stood at INR 21.7 crores, as compared to INR 21 crores in Q2 FY 2023, a growth of 3% year-on-year. EBITDA margins stood at 22.7%. Profit after tax for Q2 FY 2024 stood at INR 8.3 crores, as compared to 7.8 crores in Q2 FY 2023, a growth of 6% year-on-year. PAT margins stood at 8.7%.

As far as the half year ended FY 2024 performance is concerned, total income for H1 FY 2024 stood at INR 206.1 crores, as compared to INR 260.9 crores in H1 FY 2023, a big growth of 21% year-on-year. EBITDA for H1 FY 2024 stood at INR 54.3 crores, as compared to INR 39.4 crores in H1 FY 2023, a growth of 10% year-on-year. EBITDA margins stood at 26.3%. Profit after tax for H1 FY 2024 stood at INR 23.6 crores, as compared to 21.7 crores in H1 FY 2023, a growth of 9% year-on-year. PAT margins stood at 11.5%. With this, I would like to open the floor for questions and answers.

Operator

Thank you very much. We will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two.... Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. We take our first question from the line of Mr. Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Institutional. Please go ahead, sir.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yeah, thank you, sir, for the opportunity. Sir, first question is, sir, sir, what would be the utilization level for our first half as compared to FY 23 levels? Only the utilization level, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

We do not give the exact sales figure, and therefore we cannot give the utilization level because that will affect the exact sales figures. But I can tell you that the quantities sold were lower from last year by about 10%.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

By about 10%. Okay. And sir, sir, in your opening remarks and also in into the presentation, we have stated that we are looking to increase our global market share from 10% to 12% this year. So sir, like the incremental capacity which we have added, you had stated that we have not got orders from, for that, for that capacity. So, so material uptick in volume shouldn't be there for this fiscal. So how come our market share from 10% to 20%, it can grow?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

What we are saying is that we are looking at doing this. Basically, our aim is to grow to that 12%, and our target is to do it in calendar year 2024.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Okay. Yeah. And sir, what is the status of the new capacity expansion? So, have you received any new orders so we can like to ramp up the capacity faster than anticipated?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

No, no. So, currently, as I told you, there has been some decrease in quantities. And in calendar year 2024, we are looking to increase our market share in the global capacities, and that is when we expect to increase our capacity utilization. Post that, we can consider the further expansion.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Okay. Sir, also the European markets and the U.S. market, so that continues to remain weak. So is there any like... So like, so suppose we're into a cycle, so where are we standing now? We are at the bottom, or we could see further pain, or like because of anticipated pickup in demand from tire front, there should be pickup. So where are we like standing in terms of a cycle?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So what I would say is that, you know, most of the geopolitical situations have played themselves out. And therefore, I would tend to believe that as far as the European market is concerned, this could be a place from where we could witness a little upside, you know, after some short period of time, not immediately, but maybe after six months. I do not see any further issues happening here, except for the fact, of course, that there is one geopolitical situation of the Gaza-Israel war. If that does not escalate, then we feel that, you know, as far as Europe is concerned, that this could be it.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. And sir, in, into the North American market, earlier, sir, you were stating that it is a 40,000 tons market. So how much like penetration we have made, how much like volumes are we giving? Any, any sort of a market share number you can give in North America?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Once we make the penetration, we will share the numbers with you. But currently, of course, we are looking to enter this market. We have not been successful enough to share the number with you.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. So just one last question, sir. Have you heard any, like, competitors expanding the capacity further from the current level?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So we have heard of a Japanese competitor who has stated their intention to expand capacity by about 10,000 metric tons per annum.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay, 10,000 metric tons. Any other player has... So Flexsys, have they indicated any sort of capacity expansion?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Not, not to our knowledge.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

So, so sir, we can anticipate that the capacity addition would be limited at least for the next two years, and considering that, so the demand growth, so whatever there was capacity surplus, that can be like fulfilled, at least over the next two years?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

That is what we are hoping for, that additional capacity, if there is a demand growth and the geopolitical situation stabilizes, then the pressure on capacity utilization should ease down a bit.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Mr. Niranjan from Robo Capital. Please go ahead, sir.

Speaker 10

Hi, thanks for the opportunity. So my first question would be: What kind of volume growth are we looking for in the next couple of years, you know, two, three years, if you could provide-

... a little guidance on that then.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So what we are looking for and what we are gunning for is to utilize our current capacities in the next two, three years. We also have the approvals in place to sell out our entire current capacities. It is, and we've had this in place even last year. It is not necessarily a new development. Last year, we were not able to get allocations, and there were slowdowns and various things. So we are hopeful that at some point we will get those allocations and be able to sell out the entire capacity.

Speaker 10

Okay, okay, that helps. On the realization front, sir, are we at the bottom or is there any further possibility of decline, and what's the outlook, you know, going ahead?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So as far as the realization is concerned, as you can see from our profitability, basically, realization is also a product of the input costs. So for example, even though realizations came down significantly from last year, but last year they were higher because of the raw material costs, and the raw material costs came down. But in spite of that, we were able to regain some of our margins over last year. Now, I mean, looking at the margin scenario, I would tend to believe that this is a level where it should stabilize the sales and margin, that is, should stabilize.

Speaker 10

We have one-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Reduction in the market demand, over, you know, next year also, then there could be additional price pressure on the margins.

Speaker 10

Okay, okay. So, how much of the input cost changes are you able to pass on to your customers? If you could shed some light on that.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So normally, raw material input cost changes are, you know, passed on either way to the customer. But there is always a lag because we have a quarterly or a six-monthly contract with them, and in some cases, annual also. So it depends on the next cycle discussions. Whenever we do negotiations, input costs form a part of that negotiation.

Speaker 10

Okay, they are passed on, right?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I would not say that 100% passed on either way.

Speaker 10

But the margins are somewhat-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Margins are, they are always considered, you know, during negotiation.

Speaker 10

So the margins are, you know, somewhat protected on that front. Is that right to assume?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I didn't get your question, please.

Speaker 10

Well, I said that the margins are somewhat protected. Is that right to assume that?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

As I said, for example, last year the margins were quite squeezed. This year, they have improved a little bit. So this is how this happens, you know...

Speaker 10

Okay, got it. Got it.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

What is the price that they are buying at? They will consider what is the input cost scenario, what are the competitors. All these things, you know, go into negotiation.

Speaker 10

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

At the cost. Yeah.

Speaker 10

Got it. Thank you. Thank you so much. All the best.

Operator

Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Keshav Garg from Counter Cyclical. Please go ahead, sir.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, I'm trying to understand that quarter-on-quarter, if you see our revenue is down 13% on standalone basis, whereas our EBITDA is down by almost a 1/3. So, so what is the reason that quarter-on-quarter, why is there so much impact, especially on the EBITDA level? Has the demand deteriorated quarter-on-quarter?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Yes. Quarter- on- quarter. Yes. So, so quarter- on- quarter, as you said, that there has been a some reduction in in the quantity as well as selling price. So therefore, there is a reduction in... Quarter- on- quarter, there is a-

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, I meant as compared to June quarter with September quarter, Q2 vs. Q1.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Yeah.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Whereas in Q1 on standalone basis, we did INR 31 crore EBITDA, which is down to INR 21 crore in Q2.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So one is the quantity, and one, of course, in Q1 our margins were very good, which have come down in Q2, even though they are better than the Q2 last year, but they are lower than Q1 of the current year.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, so now, so is it due to operating deleverage kicking in, or is it due to that we have passed on more price reduction than our cost reduction?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

No. So, as I said, you know, the pricing changes happen on either quarterly or half-yearly basis. So whenever, wherever there was 1/2 yearly pricing change, that came into effect from first July, and the pricing change was passed on. So that is why the impact of that is there in the quarter ended 30th September.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, so now going forward, what is the kind of feedback you are listening from your customers? Are you expecting the same trend to continue? Should we expect the Q2 numbers, trend to continue, or do you see, this trend changing or further deteriorating or improving?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So our effort is to increase our quantities. That is the quantity that we sell. When we achieve that, obviously, our EBITDA numbers should look better.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, now, as far as the realizations are concerned, should these realizations be considered to be the rock bottom, or is there still further scope of realizations going down further?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

We hope that doesn't go down further. As I said earlier also to, in response to another question, that if there is no further impact in the demand, our hope will be that the realizations that we have now should be the realization that should continue. Sustain, that is.

Operator

The line for the current questioner has got disconnected. We move on to the next question from the line of Mr. Nirav from Anvil Research. Please go ahead, sir.

Speaker 9

Yeah, good afternoon, sir. I have two questions. So one is, a few years back when we were speaking about competition from China, so predominantly they were not on the continuous process and, possibly because of which their realizations were also lower as compared to ours. But when we now see, for most of the companies there, they have now been on the continuous process, so latest being Yanggu Huatai, who has put up a 40,000 tons capacity last year on a continuous process.

So just wanted to understand from you that, let's say before three to four years when we were selling in the market and they were also selling in the market, those premiums, what we used to get, has that narrowed down, at this point of time with Chinese becoming more aggressive in terms of, setting up their capacities on continuous process? So that's question number one, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So, this has to be answered in two ways. There are certain areas in which the Chinese have got approvals, and there, certainly the premium has been compressed. There are other areas where the Chinese are not, you know, approved or not considered a very reliable source of supply.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So, it is not a question of premium getting compressed or not, because one is not competing with the Chinese.

Speaker 9

Correct. Correct, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Where one has direct competition with the Chinese, there certainly the premium has got compressed.

Speaker 9

Got it. Got it. So sir, when we see our portfolio of products, we generally are more towards high dispersion, high stability grades or the special grades. So let's say, out of the total volumes what we currently sell, how much of that portion is immune from those competition levels where we-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

No, there is nothing like that now, because this, the OT-20 product has become a, you know, everything has become a so-called special product and everybody has it.

Speaker 9

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Then there are other products like OT-25 AS and OT-33, where the Chinese are not present, to answer it shortly.

Speaker 9

Got it. Got it, sir. And another question from my side is, if you can share about the world market currently, how much is, how much, how much of the capacity is now in China? How much is the consumption currently in China? If you can just share some broad picture about the global market and how the market has been growing over the last three, four years.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I mean, these are numbers which are not readily available with us.

Speaker 9

Just a broad perspective you can share.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

The broad perspective is that there has not been any growth in China in terms of what we hear of, in terms of consumption, and that is why the Chinese manufacturers have been a little bit more aggressive into, for selling into the Asia Pacific region. World over also, in the last two years, we do not see any growth because we have seen compression in the European market. China is not, has not grown, or if they have grown slightly over this, in the current year, they are still below the 2019 numbers. So it's very difficult to say, but if you ask my gut feel, then there has not been any growth in the global market-

Speaker 9

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

this year.

Speaker 9

Okay. Because I was going through one of the articles which were mentioning that in July, August, the tire volume growth in China was 10% up on a YOY basis, as well as it was about 2018, 2019 levels also in terms of the growth. And they have been now taking those price hikes also commensurate with the increase in the raw material prices. So here, probably Sulfuric Acid prices have not gone up, so they would not have taken those price hikes. But for other-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

...

Speaker 9

Sorry?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

You're talking about Sulfuric Acid or sorry?

Speaker 9

No, no, no. I'm talking about Sulfur, so my apologies. So, for Sulfur, last year the prices were higher, then it came down. So, there the question of price increases were minuscule. But for other constituents of tires, where the rubber chemical goes, they have been managed to increase those prices of the finished product. So just wanted to understand your perspective that the second half looks better for the entire industry, where the volume which we have clocked in Q2 could be considered as bottom volumes, and now we could start seeing those ramping up of our sales quantities also to the export markets.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So I will answer you in two parts again. You know, as far as global market is concerned, I would not be able to comment whether the global market will immediately increase in the second half. Even though there has been uptick in the Chinese market in the last quarter, but I, when I was talking, I was talking about the whole year.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

As far as our own performance is concerned, yes, you are right. We should assume that what we have sold in the preceding quarter is something that we should improve upon in the next quarter. So that is, that is how I consider it.

Speaker 9

Correct. And so just a last clarification on that, 40,000 tons of capacity which a competitor has put up in China. So do you have any idea about, about that capacity being put into operation, or how it is operating, or has that, suppressed some of the realizations in the export market? Any, any idea, that would be very helpful.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So you're talking about Huatai?

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Huatai is competing in the market wherever they are approved, as Akshay just told you.

Speaker 9

Yeah.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So Huatai is competing in the market. Their product is acceptable and approved with certain customers, and they are of course, we have to, you know, consider their pricing also.

Speaker 9

Correct.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Now, whether this is coming from the new capacity or how much is their capacity utilization is something, some figure which we don't have currently. Maybe by the end of the year, we will have those figures.

Speaker 9

Got it, sir. Thank you so much, sir, and festival wishes and all the best for the coming quarters.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Thank you. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. A reminder to all the participants, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. We take the next question from the line of Karan Mehra from Mehta Capital. Please go ahead, sir.

Karan Mehra
Analyst, Mehta Capital

Hello, sir, good afternoon, and thanks for the opportunity. Couple of questions from my end. Sir, have we seen any cost reduction on the raw material front, given that we are seeing easing inflation?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Year-on-year, obviously there has been a substantial cost reduction, but if you talk about cost reduction in the current... And even I would say a little bit from quarter-to-quarter, but now they are more or less stabilized. So within the last four months, five months, they are more or less been stable with the, you know, slight upside on some raw materials, slight downside into some raw materials.

Karan Mehra
Analyst, Mehta Capital

Understood. And, sir, with increased radialization, how much excess demand are we seeing for insoluble Sulfur going ahead?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So, there are, we do expect the domestic market to grow robust, and the growth rate being robust. And there are many factors, of course. There is the increased auto sales, increased infrastructure spending, increased use of commercial vehicles, and radialization of commercial tires. Obviously, radialization of passenger vehicle is complete. So these are the commercial tires where again, rapidly, radialization is happening. So that will add in the overall addition of demand for insoluble Sulfur. But to say how much percentage will that constitute is difficult to say.

Karan Mehra
Analyst, Mehta Capital

Sir, so, are any of your peers planning to increase capacity in near future, and how will this impact us in future?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

As I have said earlier, the only capacity expansion that we are aware of is that of the Japanese competitor. We have declared a 10,000 metric tons expansion plan.

Karan Mehra
Analyst, Mehta Capital

Sure, sir. That, that answers my question. Thank you, and all the very best.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

You're welcome.

Operator

Thank you. We take the next question from the line of Mr. Keshav Garg from Counter Solutions. Please go ahead, sir.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, I'm trying to understand that, sir, what approximately would be the global capacity utilization for insoluble s ulfur industry? Hello?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Global capacity utilization, I cannot give you that figure just now. I will need, because I have not total the global capacity. I don't have the global, total global capacity in front of me, but we can get back to you on that.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, so what are you hearing from your customers when they must be demanding for a price cut due to increase in competitive intensity? Sir, so that would give you some idea about the... Sir, what would you say that how much is the excess capacity globally?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So if you say, whether capacity utilization or excess capacity globally, it's the same thing. Yes, we know that there are unutilized capacities. Yes, we know that there is a pressure from unutilized capacity in China, but if you ask me as a percentage, that is something I cannot give you offhand. So these are the two things. Whenever we talk to customers, there are some customers where we have a Chinese competitor, there the talk is different. Elsewhere, they do talk, they do talk about costs coming down, and there are other ways of negotiation. But to say, you know, everybody talks about our customers talk about excess capacity is not correct. Because we have, where we have long-term relationships, it's always about input costs coming down and adjusting the price, and you know, things like that.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, so this increase in market share from 10% to 12%, by when do you foresee this happening? In how many years?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Our target is to have that by the end of calendar year 2024.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, sir, most of this increase is expected to come from the U.S.A?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Well, our increase is coming from new markets, which predominantly North America. In addition to that, we are looking at entering with some new customers. That is the second thing. The third thing is that we are looking at increasing our volume share in the domestic market, which again is the fastest growing market in the world today. So that should also add to our overall market share, global market share.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sure, sir. And, sir, also, sir, is there any continent that we are not yet, we have not, penetrated at all, like, for example, Latin America, Africa or-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

We are present, we are present in all continents today. If you ask me, we are selling in all continents today. China is the only place we're not selling.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Okay. And sir, what about the Russian market, sir? Are we over there since the Western competition has withdrawn completely from that market?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

This is a matter of sanctions and all that, you know.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Okay. Okay. And sir, finally, sir, in the insoluble sulfur that we are manufacturing, sir, are there any adjacencies where we can try to modify our products or make some derivatives or some value addition? And sir, or is it only the tire sector that this product can find application, and there is nothing else? Sir, in sulfur chemistry, I'm assuming there must be other areas, adjacencies, which we might-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So what happens is that, you know, Sulfur is available, for example, today, sulfur is available at around INR 14-15 per kg. Our product is, say, 8-10x that. Sulfur works as a vulcanizing agent, so only the tire companies where their rubber performance, the tire needs to perform at very extreme level. So it is only there that, you know, people will buy an expensive product.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sir, so basically, rest, all the applications are low value added, so it doesn't make sense for us to look at them?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So low value. No, what I'm saying is that they will not use insoluble sulfur until and unless the product that they make is the kind where the vulcanized rubber has to undergo extreme environments.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Sure, sir. Sir, by when do you foresee this demerger finally taking place?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

The matter is in front of the NCLT court, and they have to, you know, they have to give the approvals. Once we have the approvals from them, then, it will move forward.

Keshav Garg
Director, Counter Cyclical Investments

Okay, sir. Thank you very much. That's all from my side.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Aditya Khetan from SMIFS Institutional. Please go ahead, sir.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Yeah, thank you, sir, for the follow-up. Sir, as you mentioned that, so the sulfur prices, generally they are at around INR 10-INR 12 per kilo. So sir, similarly, how much-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

12-15. I did not use the word ten.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. And sir, so sir, similarly, how much would be the coating oil prices also per kilo if you can, like, specify a range also for that?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Say from about INR 100-INR 135 a liter, not kilo.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

100 to 135 per kilo?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Yeah. Okay, you can say per kilo, right?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. 100 to 135. Okay. Sir, for the full, like, fiscal FY 2024, I believe, half yearly we are down by 10%. So for FY 2024, like, we are building enough flattish volume growth as compared to FY 2023, so there should be, like, uptick in second half, or, like, we would still be down at around, like, at 5%-10% for full fiscal FY 2024?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

No, we do, we hope not to be down, and we hope to be better than FY 2024 in quantity terms.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Sir, you said so, like, in terms of volume-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

In FY 2024 in quantity terms than last year.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. So that means that, like, so there would be a volume growth of around 15%-20%, you mean to say in second half, like, we are down by 10%?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Even last year, the second half volume were lower than the first half volume. That is one thing. Then obviously we are looking at increasing our volumes in next year.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. And sir, this volume uptick which you're mentioning in second half, so this should be largely led by the newer capacity or from the existing capacity only we will be getting?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Sir, it doesn't matter, because, you know, what matters is what percentage of capacity utilization is there, right? So, whether we are using the old plant or the new plant, that is something that we keep using. Even now, at lower capacities, we are using the new plant also for production.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay. Mm-hmm. Other expenses, but on quarter-on-quarter, there is a jump of 4%, despite like declining the top line and your volume by 10%. So like, I think the freight cost and power cost also have been normalized. So which is that component like which has gone up in this quarter?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

So one of course, is that we had a shutdown of the sulfuric acid plant, so some repair and maintenance costs are higher. You, you're talking about 2024, right?

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Quarter on-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Quarter-on-quarter.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Okay. And then obviously the growth in the normal inflation and salary growth is there.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Uh-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Some repair and maintenance costs are higher. These are the major, major districts. Like INR 3-4 crore or some. Sir, INR 3-4 crore, right, sir? Just give me a moment. Other expenses, where do you see it? Quarter-over-quarter, I'm talking, or-

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Quarter-on-quarter, 4%. And, sir, like, even if you look on the half-yearly basis, so it is down by, by around 30%. But sir, our, our volumes are down only by 10%, so this additional decline in other expenses, because of the-

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Additional decline is basically because of freight, which was very high last year, this time last year. So the major component is freight in that.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

But sir, okay, so, but sir, majority of the freight in the

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Freight has come down, you know, quite substantially from around-

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Mm-hmm.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

INR 56.5 crore-INR 9.5 crore.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay, 16.5 to 9, okay, 9.5.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

16.5 to 9.5.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

So the freight come down, so, so this should benefit, right? But your cost has gone up, so...

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

No, it has not. It has come down. That is what I'm saying.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

From other expenses, INR 80 crore-INR 55 crore.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Where has it come d

own? I'm confused with it.

Operator

Thank you. We'll take the next question from the line of Viraj Shah from Shah Investments. Please go ahead, sir.

Viraj Shah
Analyst, Shah Investments

Yeah. Hi, sir. Sir, just wanted to follow up on one of the participants' question. What would be our strategy for capturing the North American market, and have we secured any notable partnerships over there?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

We have all the approvals in place, as I mentioned. Now it all depends about getting the allocations.

Viraj Shah
Analyst, Shah Investments

Okay. And sir, regarding Europe, when do we expect things to normalize over there? If you could share some timeline or something like that.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I would love to. If I knew, then I would do a lot of things.

Viraj Shah
Analyst, Shah Investments

Sir, any update, or any extent we are seeing realization decline given by the China inventory build-up and decline, demand from the Europe?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I think all these issues have already played out in the market. Whether they continue to play up further is a matter of speculation, but I think most of it has already played out in the market.

Viraj Shah
Analyst, Shah Investments

Okay. And sir, if we get any updates on demerger front, demerger front, what are we at current stages?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Currently our demerger application is pending before the NCLT, and-

Viraj Shah
Analyst, Shah Investments

Okay.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

We await their approval.

Viraj Shah
Analyst, Shah Investments

Okay. Okay, that's it from my end. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you, sir. The next question is from the line of Mr. Jigar Shah from AK Securities. Please go ahead, sir.

Jigar Shah
Analyst, AK Securities

Yeah. Hello, sir. Sir, I just had a one quick question. What is our debt strategy and going forward, and can you share a timeline that when we can reduce it further?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Reduce what?

Jigar Shah
Analyst, AK Securities

Debt.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I think Akshat has already said-

Jigar Shah
Analyst, AK Securities

Reduce what?

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

That we have already, we did already prepay debt in the first half. In fact, in the first half we paid a debt of INR 25.5 crore. And in the second half, because of the prepayment of most of the debt, which was due in the second half also, and about INR 4.5 crore of the debt, which was due after 31st March 2024 also. So in the next six months, it should reduce by a further INR 10.35 crore. So our long-term debt is already substantially lower than what it was at the beginning of the year, which was at INR 104.09 crore, and which is at INR 78.5 crore as on 30th of September.

It should further reduce by about INR 10.5 crore by the end of the year.

Jigar Shah
Analyst, AK Securities

Got it, sir. That helps. Thank you, sir.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

Yes.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for the day. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Anurag Jain
CFO, Oriental Carbon & Chemicals Limited

I'd like to thank everyone for being part of this call. We hope we've answered your questions. If you need more information, please feel free to contact us or Mr. Deven Dhruva from SGA, our IR advisor. I'd also like to extend my heartfelt wishes for the upcoming festive season. Thank you so much.

Aditya Khetan
Lead Institutional Equity Research Analyst, SMIFS Limited

Thank you!

Operator

Thank you. On behalf of Oriental Carbon and Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.

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