Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Nitin Gupta from Emkay Global Financial Services. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Sagar. Good evening, everyone. I would like to welcome the management and thank them for this opportunity. We have with us today Mr. Abhijit Roy, Managing Director and CEO, Mr. Kaushik Ghosh, Vice President and CFO, and Mr. Sujyoti Mukherjee, Vice President, Finance and Accounts. I shall now hand over the call to the management for the opening remarks. Over to you, gentlemen.
Thank you, Nitin. A very warm welcome to everybody to this Q4 FY 2024 earnings call of Berger Paints India Limited. First of all, I would like to thank all participants for their participation, and like to inform them that the management presentation on earnings call has already been circulated and uploaded in our website and in the stock exchanges. So without any delay now, I would like to hand over to Mr. Abhijit Roy, our MD and CEO, for his comments on the earnings, followed by the Q&A session. Over to you, Mr. Roy.
Thank you, Sujyoti, and a very warm welcome to all of you once again. The year financial year 2024 has special significance for us. This is the year when we completed our 100 year of existence in India. In December of 2023, actually, we completed 100 years of our presence in India. And in this 100 years, we had two interesting, I would say, milestones which we achieved. In a standalone, we achieved a revenue of INR 10,000 crore and a PAT of INR 1,000 crore in the year 2023-2024. So financial year 2024, in the hundredth year of our presence in the standalone business, crossed INR 10,000 crore and a PAT of INR 1,000 crore. Quarter four, of course, was a relatively tough quarter.
We did have a very healthy double-digit volume growth, which we registered, but the value growth was relatively much smaller. The gap was quite large, in fact. The volume growth was 13.9% and value growth 2.7%. The value growth moderated on account of the following reasons: impact of price reduction, about approximately in our mix, if you consider our basket, you know, it's about 5%, reduction which happened. There was no reduction in the luxury category. However, the dealers apprehending that there might be a drop in prices of the luxury category, destocked to some extent. They sold out, but they did not lift enough material. As a result, the mix shifted more towards the economy category. The third reason, which was there, was the high value...
High volume, but low-value products like tile adhesives and admixtures, which saw a much higher growth during the quarter. For us, we had another effect of one-time subsidy, which we had last year from Hindupur plant, to the tune of about INR 30 crore, which also was considered in the operating income last year, which had therefore resulted in a, you know, volume-value gap this year. If you look at the operating profit, against the last year figure of 9.1% growth, this year there is a decline of 5.1%. Again, you know, the important reason, you know, is the subsidy which we had last year, which we didn't have this year.
If you consider that fact, then it would have been, if you had removed this part of subsidy from last year basis, then it would have, we would have grown at about 4%. But because of that, the -5% is being shown. Of course, you know, the value growth was much lower than the volume growth, therefore, operating leverage is, you know, compared to the fixed cost, you know, it was on the negative side. Incremental operating cost of Sandila plant was also there in this particular quarter, more so. And there was a conscious call to increase advertisement expenses, which went up by 1% to sales, and therefore, to that extent, it impacted the profitability.
If we go by, you know, the P&L, therefore, you know, we had a 2.7% sales growth, operating was -5, and PAT was -7.4. However, if you look at the gross margin figures on a standalone basis, which has been given from quarter three of financial year 2022 onwards, it was hovering around earlier at, at about 36, 35, 33, 34% range. From quarter four of last year, it had shifted to 39% range, and you know, now, we are at the highest at forty point three percent. So in quarter four, the gross margin was pretty okay at 40.3%, you know, which is, you know, where we have been in the second and the third quarter as well, so we have maintained that.
However, you know, the EBITDA fell, you know, to 14.5%. As I said, you know, one of the reasons, of course, is the advertisement expense increase by almost 1% as a percentage of sales, and then also the leverage, operating leverage, which was on the lower side in this quarter. In consolidated sales, if you look at the consolidated figure, it is better than the standalone, largely driven by Bolix, and to some extent also STP and Saboo Coatings. The value growth in consolidated sales was 3.1%. Operating profit, there was a degrowth of 4.8%, so it's slightly better than the standalone that is, and PAT growth of 19.7%.
There is approximately about 20 crore, which we got, you know, in terms of the insurance payment, for the Goa factory fire, which had happened in Becker Coatings last year. So that's why it has become, you know, otherwise we would have had still a positive, but it would have been a lower positive. But because of that, it improved substantially. So 3.1% value growth, -4.8% operating profit growth, and 19.7% PAT growth. This is as far as consolidated for this quarter is concerned. In terms of the performance of various subsidiaries within the consolidated, business, Bolix, as I said, did very well, with strong double-digit top line growth and, a huge improvement in profit as well. And as I said, there is a sharp actually expansion in the profit margin.
The company also achieved a constant currency growth in this quarter, which was substantial. The company's overseas subsidiary, Berger Nepal, had another quarter of degrowth. The Nepalese economy is still in some sort of turmoil. Getting payments in is of priority first now, and therefore, you know, this is likely to continue for one more quarter, possibly. And this type of a degrowth has been registered by almost all companies in Nepal, and we are no exception there, so. The company subsidiary, STP, had another quarter of strong double-digit top line growth, aided by higher sales in the admixture segment, along with healthy profit growth on the back of some operational leverage. We expect the growth performance to further continue in STP in the coming quarters.
SBL Specialty Coatings also had a decent top line growth in the quarter, aided by traction in the new line of business and a double-digit profitability growth and margin expansion on the back of price increases. The joint venture, Berger Becker Coatings, had a turnaround performance with healthy double-digit top line growth and strong profitability growth for the quarter. Company also received INR 46 crores towards insurance claim on fire loss. And since we have 60% of this, 49% of this, so we got about 22 odd crores as a part of this, which got written back this year. Company's joint venture, Nippon Paint Automotive Coatings Private Limited, continued its double-digit top line and profitability growth, riding the strong performance in passenger car and SUV sector.
We are expecting a strong growth to continue in the coming quarters in BNPA, which is the Berger Nippon Paint Automotive Coatings. Now I'll move to the yearly performance. Yearly performance is much better than the quarter four performance of course. And on all fronts, we have done much better in terms of the reporting figures. Volume growth has been strong double digit. You know, value growth also has been reasonably good. On a consolidated basis, it's around 6%. Standalone operating profit growth has been 24.2%. Consolidated operating profit growth has been 25.2%. India operations gained market share, and this we are reasonably certain that we would have gained, you know, good market share this year as well. We had gained last year, we have gained this year as well. Company turned net cash positive.
After investment in our Sandila plant, there were some borrowings on our books, and debts on our books as well, you know, therefore, but that has all gone. As we had indicated in the earlier meeting as well, that we will turn cash positive. We did turn cash positive in December itself, but that has further increased now, by a good level, to become cash positive at the end of the year. Now, in terms of the standalone results, volume growth 11.6%, value sales growth 5.6%, EBITDA growth 24.2%. Decorative business had a strong double-digit volume growth, even in an inflationary environment. Strong double-digit profitability growth, as is evident. Operating margin increased by 250 basis points over previous year.
All industrial business lines continued their growth trajectory, with significant improvement in profitability. If you look at two-year, three-year or four-year figures also, we've been very, very consistent, both in volume growth and value growth terms. CAGR two-year volume growth, 13.7. CAGR three-year volume growth, 16.4. CAGR four-year volume growth, 15.4%. If you look at CAGR value growth, two-year, 13.7; three-year, 18.4, and four-year, 15.1. So very consistent double-digit volume and value growth CAGRs over two years, three years, and four years. This year in value growth, we slipped a little bit, you know, of course, because of the price decrease mostly, but also a little bit of downtrading.
But our operating profit growth, and our volume growth has been seeing double digit or strong double digit growth even this year. Financial results, you know, if we look at, the, for the full year on a standalone basis, total income from operations, 5.6% growth, operating profit 24.2%, and PAT growth of 22.5%. On a consolidated basis, it improved. Total income from operations growth is 6%, operating profit growth is 25.2%, and PAT growth is 36%. For the decorative business, if we just look at the year gone by, decorative business recorded strong volume growth and showed resilience in spite of high inflation and extended monsoon. Strong traction in the economic segment impacted value growth. Construction, chemical and waterproofing business had a stellar performance. Aggressive network expansion continued.
We, in fact, added 7,300+ retail touchpoints, and more importantly, we installed 7,100 color bank machines. Introduced a diverse range of products during the year and innovative steps taken towards influencer outreach. We have been, you know, selling a large number of products, and some of them have become very strong brands and leaders in their own category. That includes Easy Clean, which continues to grow at a good pace and continues to do very, very well, and strong double-digit growth were registered in '2024 also. The same holds true for Weathercoat Anti Dustt, you know, which again, continues to do well and leads the category in that particular segment. Lot of other products like Long Life, Silk Glamour, which continues to do well. Luxol Enamel, where we remain a very, very strong player.
These are products and brands which will hold its own in the market for quite some time. We also introduced 2 or 3 very interesting new products in last year. 4 of them, which I can mention. 1, Roof Kool & Seal. This is a product which is applied on the roof. It cools and seals. We had introduced it in the month of November, late November. It started doing very well, and as of now, it is growing at a fantastic pace. PU Elastoseal, this is another product which is solvent PU product, which is again, used on the roof, but this time for larger surfaces, mostly on industrial areas. Again, doing reasonably well there. We introduced an Easy Clean variant. This is a very interesting product called Easy Clean Silky Touch.
It has a very good finish on the wall and also retains the property of Easy Clean completely, doing very well in the market. It is upgrading some part of the Easy Clean volume onto Easy Clean Silky Touch. We took a large number of digital initiatives towards the second half of the year, and it's going to continue in the first half of this year as well. A large number of these initiatives will bear fruit in this year. I can also say that 2025 will give us positive results. We introduced a sales force for painters. A sales force for dealers is going to get introduced soon. WMS across all our warehouses, you know, warehouse management system is getting installed. We have completed about 60%. We will complete the rest of the warehouses as well.
This will make, you know, much easier to stock, retrieve, and maintain the FIFO. Also, there are a lot of other advantages which accrue out of this. We introduced an app called My Colour app. It has an interesting, you know, AI application also in that, you know, and very well accepted by consumers. We'll start possibly advertising a little bit about this on the digital media. The B2C part of it, like express painting, is doing quite well, and, you know, there also we have done some interesting work. Last mile delivery tracker, this we have put in place, you know, for...
We are working with some startups, you know, to, to ensure that, you know, the entire information is going to the dealers completely about, you know, when it has left, you know, like Swiggy and Zomato, it is completely trackable, the material, you know, from our warehouses to the dealer point or to his site. And then E-Auction is the other one, which we did in the materials and raw materials, you know, purchases specifically or, you know, packaging material purchases, and we saved considerable amount of money doing this. On the industrial businesses, protective coating business continued its market leadership with consistent growth trajectory and substantial improvement in profitability. Automotive and general industrial business had an improved performance on the back of some uptick in the two-wheeler demand, though commercial vehicles and tractor, you know, was, demand was muted.
And we operate only in these three segments, essentially. But Nippon Paint, which, the JV which we have with them, they did much better in the passenger car and SUV segment. Powder coatings business line also showed uptick over previous year, with significant improvement in profitability. We had many notable projects which we did, which included the Bharat Mandapam in Delhi, Mumbai Coastal Bridge, Vande Bharat, the bogies underneath, you know, got coated by our paint. Fluoropolymer is a new technology which we brought in. Khurja Super Thermal Power, which is, you know, HRRL Rajasthan Refinery, Reliance New Energy, Lucknow Adani Airport, a large number of these projects. Since we are leaders in this category, we continue to get advantage of, you know, being present across most of these infrastructure projects.
Manufacturing capacity, the present capacity in India is about 1.27 million metric tons. Brownfield expenses were carried out at some of the manufacturing units. And the greenfield ventures, one in Panagarh, West Bengal, is progressing. We are in the process of now starting the work in terms of construction. We've got all the permissions that were required. And then now we will start basically the construction work. The land acquisition has been completed at Khurda in Odisha, near Bhubaneswar, and work will begin six months to a year down the line. Net debt situation in March 2023, we had INR 461 crore debt. In September 2023, also, it was still at about INR 324 crore.
Then in December 2023, we had become cash positive with INR 56 crore, and as of March 2024, we have now 341 crore cash on our books. Shareholders has been consistently been rewarded, with dividend trajectory always improving year on year. We had begun at 125% in financial year 2015, and this year, in the 100th year, we have declared 350% dividend. So that's as far as dividend goes. Sustainability in action. ESG initiatives, we have taken numerous initiatives: Green Energy, Three Shakti, Four R Policy, WOW, Project Jal, Safety First. In Project Jal, for example, we have huge savings of water. Our Project Urja Shakti, the EV story, we have introduced e-vehicles for last mile delivery now in many of our depots, and we, we plan to expand it to across all depots, if possible.
We save nearly 10 crore liters of water, enough to quench thirst of 1 lakh people for the whole year. The business outlook that we look at, decorative business is expected to maintain double-digit volume growth for Q1 and FY 2025, with a slightly lower value growth. Normal monsoon likely to propel rural demand. Markets expected to pick up in the second quarter onwards, post general election results. Industrial business is expected to do well and maintain its strong profitability. Raw material prices have remained benign for some time. However, given the current geopolitical situation, volatility in raw material prices can be a concern. Thank you, and open for questions.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone phone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Mihir Shah from Nomura. Please go ahead.
Good evening, sir. Thank you for taking my question, and congrats on a better-than-peers volume performance. So when I'm looking at the price cuts, you mentioned your price cuts were 5%, which seems to be more than what the industry has taken. Can you share the timeline of price cuts taken, and these price cuts are largely to pass on raw material benefits, or it is also positioning in anticipation of competition? So that's my first question.
Okay. Thank you, Mihir. You know, so, yeah, the price cuts were primarily for against the raw material drop, prices which dropped. And then to neutralize that, you know, the price cuts were taken. Much of the price cuts, one price cut happened in the month of November, and then, you know, January, with January, the bulk of it happened. Out of this 5%, you know, 4.5% would have happened between, you know, primarily happened mostly in January, and then that 1% happened in the month of November. And earlier, we had taken one price decrease in a product called Weathercoat Anti Dustt. Our price premium against the market leader had risen very high, and we neutralized a little bit of that.
We still have a premium, but we reduced it a little bit because the gap had become too large. So therefore, these were the three, you know, price cuts which we took. That was about 0.4% overall impact, 0.3%, and one 1.2% was in November, and the rest was in the month of January. So overall, this is the total impact.
Understood. Got it. Thanks for that, sir. So my second question is on the mix. Even if I adjust for the, you know, higher price cut, the mix seems to be, you know, has deteriorated a little further. And you alluded it is because of, luxury paints, destocking and so on. So how should one read this, down trading or destocking? Is it a quarterly phenomenon, or do you think or one should expect this, down trading to continue in the coming quarters as well? And also, if you can, you know, jog our memory, if a such kind of, inferior mix or down trading was visible in earlier quarters also.
Yeah. So, you know, see, what is there are three reasons which I have given, you know, for this volume value gap, which is there, right? Number one is, of course, as you said, the luxury products. You know, there was some amount of destocking which, which happened, because there was an anticipation that prices might drop. Now that they are relatively clear, they will buy normal stocking will happen. And therefore, you know, in the first quarter, we do not expect destocking to continue, in the luxury products. The second reason, as I said, you know, there has been substantially better growth of some of the low value but very high volume products, like tile adhesive or admixture, to some extent, maybe, you know, waterproof putty. So these are segments which have high volume, but relatively low value.
Not necessarily low profit, but low value. So therefore, you know, some of these products will continue to grow at a much faster pace than normal, and therefore some amount of differential between volume and value will be there. The third reason is that this 4% price drop, which happened in primarily 5%, which is 4%, happened in January almost. So that is going to impact us up to December, right? So therefore, this gap between volume and value, to some extent, will continue till December. After that, it will get, you know, normalized.
Got it, sir. That's all from my side. Thank you very much. I'll come back with a few if I have more questions.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Tejas Shah from Spark Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, team. Thanks for the opportunity, and congrats on achieving your dual goal of INR 10,000 crore turnover and INR 1,000 crore profit this year. So my first question pertains to interplay between gross margin and EBITDA margin. What we have seen this quarter, and you actually alluded that there were multiple factors at play. Should we expect... And then you also highlighted on the previous answer that at least till December, one of the elements will stay like that.
But looking at your own guidance in terms of you want to invest in more customer franchise for investing in AMP and also in digital initiatives, should we expect that gross margin benefit? If we have to stay like this, then also it won't trickle down to EBITDA in at least CY 2024?
So, you know, there will be some improvement there, you know, because, you know, last year, you know, we had spent substantially more in advertisement, you know, on promotion expenses. That, I think, will somewhat normalize this year. You know, of course, you know, competitive intensity is going to increase, so we'll have to see that. But we expect that, you know, there will be little bit of reduction in the growth of advertisement and promotion expenses, unlike last year when we grew heavily. So that means that, you know, the gross margin, if it remains at this type of level, then the EBITDA percentage level will go up from current level.
Okay. Okay. The second on distribution expansion, which we leveraged as a vector of growth for last three years, last three, four years.
Yes.
Just wanted to know how does it play out? For example, dealers whom we added two years back, do they trend towards average utilization or average throughput in two years, or it takes longer?
So, you know, it depends on our strength in those markets and the effort that we put in in terms of secondary sales promotion. If these two are, you know, moderately good, then it shouldn't take more than 6-7 months for that dealer to start doing an average volume, which we see in and around that area. So, it is situational, but normally in 6 months to a year, they should stabilize the volume.
Sir, what would be that number of expansion which you will target this year, FY 2025?
... We are targeting about 8,000 new Color Bank machines to be installed this year in FY 2025. Last year, we had done about 7,100. We want to increase it further to 8,000 machines.
Perfect. Last one, if I may. With Sandila plant now kind of stabilizing, I'm assuming last time you highlighted 35% utilization. As that utilization goes up, should we expect some lever for margins playing out in FY 2025?
Yes, you can expect that. That will also be beneficial for us because, you know, I'm sure you know, we have already reached about now 48-50, and which we should be able to hold on in the month of April, because April is typically a big month, and, you know, that time, we utilize it much more. But I think over the year, on an average, we should be around that 50% level, so better utilization of Sandila plant, and, and that should result in some savings coming in.
Perfect. That's all from my side, and so all the best for FY 2025.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abneesh Roy from Nuvama. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks. You and market leaders both seem quite positive on the volume growth both Q1 and FY 2025. On the one hand we are seeing FMCG companies commentary turn positive this quarter. Some companies are already saying that rural is now growing faster than urban, and some are saying that it will happen during the course of the year. On the other hand, we are seeing discretionary consumption, for example, box office, pizza chains, burger chains, apparel, are still seeing a fair bit of slowdown. One more moving factor is marriage rate in Q1 is low, and after that it picks up because of the cyclical nature of the calendarization. If I put all together, where are we?
Because we have grown double-digit in the last few years also, and you are again giving a guidance, but I'm trying to understand inherent strength. Is it improving? Is it status quo currently for you?
So I think, you know, Abneesh, good evening. You know, so interesting question, and you know, there's a lot of this debate going on around, you know, GDP. If it is growing, you know, why isn't paint sales growing? The paint sales is growing at a good pace as far as volume is concerned, as you rightly said. GDP growth is also largely driven by investment, you know, which is growing at about 10%, whereas the consumption category is growing at 3% in the GDP. So GDP is driven more by investment than by consumption, and therefore, with a 3% consumption growth, you know, obviously any consumer category will not grow at a very, very fast pace. We are still growing at a reasonably good pace.
You know, if you look at it, we last year grew in value terms at about 5.6%-6%. You know, that's, that's the range. In fact, decorative was slightly higher than that. And therefore, that's almost like two times that of consumption GDP. So it's not something which is unusual, you know, that's where we normally be. And I don't see any major change happening in terms of the growth rate. You know, which means that the volume, double-digit volume growth which we registered in quarter four, should continue as far as quarter one is concerned.
The value growth in our industry, as we, as I just indicated, and you are aware of it as well, we did take a price cut, which is pretty substantial, and therefore the value growth tends to come down. And some of the mix is shifting in the direction of, you know, high volume but low-value products, which are growing much faster, and that is also driving the volume growth. So, you know, a combination of these two, value growth will be in single digits, mid-single, you know, possibly, for the next 6-7 months, you know, till November, you know, when it will start changing again, because that 4%, disadvantage will go away at that point of time.
Right. And, in terms of your industrial and auto, clearly you have done a good job last few years. Lot of things are changing there in terms of EV in both, two-wheeler and four-wheeler. How does a Japanese company linkage help or not help there? Wanted to understand, in terms of team focus, are you focusing on that more? Because that's where I think the industry trends are changing. So next five years, there can be a big shift there. Are you well-placed in that part of the auto demand?
Yeah, so you know, for us, auto is relatively small. We are much strongly placed in, you know, protective coatings and general industries, in both of which we are leaders, actually. And the sales is quite substantial as far as protective coatings and GI put together is concerned. So there we will continue to grow. As far as auto is concerned, you know, we are, as Berger, we are with, you know, in, in two-wheelers, commercial vehicles and tractors, which depends on the industry, how it does. As of now, the two-wheeler seems to be reviving, the commercial vehicle is flattish, and tractor, you know, is again flattish. So this is the situation as it exists today. I don't know what the future will be, but this is how it is today.
As far as the Japanese collaboration is concerned, they are doing very well, both in top line and bottom line growth. Largely, the passenger car vehicle has done well last year, and SUV also has done well. As a result of that, you know, since they are, you know, present across all the major accounts in the Japanese accounts. They have also started doing much better than what they were doing earlier.
Sure. Last quick question. You have been a strong voice in terms of the market share being stable for existing players. Now, almost two months of the launch plans of new players has happened. I understood you and market leaders double-digit volume growth expectation for FY 2025 and Q1. My question was on the cost aspect, so advertising spends, employee costs, and dealer incentives. Now that two more months have happened post the launch event, where do you see these in FY 2025? Is there a big risk in terms of inflation in these three line items?
No. So I think, you know, means, you know, we are more comfortable now than what we were there. We were more anxious, you know, earlier. I think, you know, after two months, you know, I think, we are gearing down to the thought that this is a competition which is serious, but, you know, it has not started impacting us in a strong way as of now. And therefore, we will continue with our thoughts and, you know, the way we do normally business. We won't be overly, you know, bothered about, you know, what is happening around us.
Okay, so you don't expect much of an impact? 50, 70% here and there can happen, but you don't expect a big impact?
No, I don't think so. Small impact might be there, here and there, but I don't see any big impact there.
Sure, sir. Thanks a lot, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants, if you have any questions, you may press star and one to join the question queue. The next question is from the line of Avi Mehta from Macquarie. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Hi, sir. Am I audible?
Yeah, you are. Carry on.
Sir, I had a few questions, sir. First, I just wanted to kind of, you know, carry on on this realization decline that we have seen in this year. So we are seeing almost a 6%-odd difference in value and volume in FY 2024. As we move into the FY 2025, you highlighted, you know, two of the three things. One is the price cut, which happened in January, and then there's the mix impact. But in your estimate, what is the number that we should look at? A mid-single digit, or it's lesser than that? Would love to hear your thoughts on this.
Yeah. So I indicated that we will have a double digit and, you know, slightly below that double digit number-
Okay
... in terms of the value growth. That's where, you know, so mid-single digit is where we will be possibly in terms of the value growth till December. From December onwards, from January onwards, you know, it'll become volume growth equal to value growth. So to that extent, you know, in the fourth quarter, we are likely to have a double-digit value growth.
Perfect, sir. This is very helpful. So the second bit was on the margin. I mean, and, you know, from our earlier conversations, you had indicated, you know, that 15%-17% or EBITDA margin range is what you are comfortable e-
Right.
Even with, right. So, would you, I mean, given what has been the last two months, would you seek to change that guidance upwards, or would you still maintain that because you're almost on 16.6 this year itself? So-
Right.
If any... Yes, sir. Any update on that, sir? How-
We will still remain in that range, you know. We won't change our guidance. We will remain in that 15%-17% range. We will, in case, you know, we find that the profitability is better than expected, then we may spend a little bit more on advertisement and promotion, building up our brand more strongly.
Got it, sir. Got it. Sir, just last bit, you know, I had some bookkeeping questions. First, this, you know, you had indicated there's an impact or benefit of low-cost inventory in the gross margin in fourth quarter. Would you be able to share any quantum of this impact? How much is it? Is it material or...?
No, I don't have those numbers with me, and I don't think, you know, I'll be able to tell you at this stage.
Okay, sir. And sir, the FY 2024, what would be the ad spend to sales? Could you be having any sense? Those were the only two questions that I had. That's all.
FY 2024, you know, we have significant higher ad spends to sales ratio, you know, and, and in fact, in terms of growth, if I'm not mistaken, I don't have the exact figure, but it's about 40% more than last year in terms of spend, actual spend.
Perfect, sir. That's all. That is helpful, sir. That is all I needed. Thank you very much, sir, and wish you luck for FY 2025.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all the participants, please press star and one to ask a question. Our next question is from the line of Harsh Shah from Bandhan. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi, team. Good evening. Sir, my question is on, so how is the rebating or the promotional intensity different this time around compared to historically when new competition enters?
I don't think anything has changed, you know, in terms of rebating. Historically, whatever has been there continues as far as rebating is concerned. It's much more to do with, you know, the profitability of the industry at large. When the profitability tends to move up, the rebating can, you know, sometimes become more stronger. And otherwise, you know, there's not much of an impact with competition coming in. Our competitors have been there coming in, and, you know, for years it has been happening. And international competitors, domestic competitors, I don't think, you know, it has impacted the industry in any significant way, and unlikely that, you know, so far, whatever we have seen, is going to impact us in some serious way.
Nothing to call out in the near term as well?
Nothing that I can call out in the near term. You know, as of now, you know, I don't think, you know, we are going to react to any new competitor who has jumped in.
Okay, sir. Got it. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Varadarajan from Antique Stock Broking. Please go ahead.
Good evening. I just wanted to have an understanding of, on your, R&D. Your spend on R&D, your resources you are putting on to work, and what are the new directionally technological things you are doing to identify and craft new products?
So we have always invested in, you know, R&D, both in terms of manpower, in terms of equipment over the years. If on an average, you know, normally Indian R&D has been hovering around that, you know, low figure. You know, we don't actually spend our a significant quantum of our money as a percentage to sale, but we spend enough that is required to be done as far as our business is concerned. We have created numerous innovative products, both in the decorative and on the industrial side. Industrial side, in fact, you know, requires far more R&D efforts. You know, it's technologically very significant compared to possibly decorative. And since we are a very leading player in protective and general industries, we take care of that side, you know, very well.
We have to spend money, therefore developing the R&D infrastructure. So exact details of how much actual INR crores we spend, I cannot say, but, you know, we spend enough that is required by us.
Just to throw some light on the direction in which technological improvements can take place, especially in the painting.
So, you know, normal tendencies are, you know, reduce volatility in your products, you know, volatile compounds in your products. So, VOC reduction is one, you know, which is more towards the green angle. Shifting more from solvent-based to water-based products is, you know, something else which happens. Going in for mono coats, you know, instead of using two coats or three coats products, you know, can we look at mono coat products? These are some general trends across industries, which is, you know, worldwide, which is happening and, you know, is going to happen in India as well, and that's where we focus our energy.
Thank you.
Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Anurag Dayal from HSBC. Please go ahead.
Hi, good evening, sir. Sir, would like to. Hello, am I audible?
Yeah. Yeah, carry on.
Yeah, sure. So I'd like to understand little flavor of the demand situation on the regional level. So you have been expanding, as I understand, distribution in traditionally, you know, weaker geographies. So you know, are able to see some impact of that in general, you know, the retail distribution where the double-digit growth in detail has come from?
Yeah.
That's my first question.
So, you know, yes, obviously, you know, our, our foray into, less represented areas of ours, you know, has been giving results. That's why you see a growth rate which is higher than the normal industry top players, and, a gain in market share as a result of that. So obviously, it is giving us results. We still have a lot of scope, of further expansion in many of these markets where we have a relatively weak ground presence. We need to build that up as fast as possible, and that is why you see a challenging target being taken by us. We did put 7,000 Color Bank machines. You know, given our size, you know, that's quite large.
And then, you know, we are looking at 8,000 machines now, you know, in the next year, and if possible, do more as well. But, you know, that's the target that we have set internally for ourselves. And this will continue. You know, there is a lot of scope for that for us. As far as we are concerned, there are large gaps in the distribution network, which we need to fulfill.
Yeah, that's very clear, sir. Secondly, just a bookkeeping question is about the total number of, you know, the Color Bank machines and retail touchpoints, in a ballpark figure, if you can tell right now after the expansion.
It will be about 45,000 in terms of the Color Bank machines, you know, which will be there approximately. And if I am not mistaken, you know, about 55,000-odd retail touchpoints, which exist, as far as we are concerned, where we have access or indirect or direct access in terms of retail touchpoints. Machines, of course, most of them are direct.
Great. And so one last bit, would like to understand, since, you know, the mix has deteriorated, it is... Is it indicating somewhere that the tier two, tier three towns or rural is doing slightly better this quarter compared to urban?
...No, no, that doesn't, you know, it's not related to Tier two, Tier three doing better than urban. It is primarily, as I have explained to you, there was, you know, a little bit of, destocking in luxury products, and, the higher volume, lower value products did much better, has been doing in for the last 2, 3 quarters, probably will continue doing better in the coming 2, 3 quarters as well. So a combination of these two is resulting in a, volume value gap, which is slightly higher.
Very clear. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Lakshmin arayan from Tunga Investments. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Couple of questions. First, in terms of your project business in the decoratives, what percentage of revenues is coming from the project business and how it has actually grown in the last one year?
About 8%, you know, which comes from the project business, you know, it's been growing slightly ahead of retail. Not significantly ahead, but slightly ahead of retail, in terms of value growth.
Okay, 8% of your standalone?
Yeah, that's right.
And second, you mentioned that the premium paints decoratives have actually declined faster. So where did it start, and what kind of decline you saw in the premium category in terms of volumes for the last quarter or maybe the last few months?
So premium did not decline. You know, premium, for us, you know, we define, premium as, you know, we have two very strong brands in this premium category called Easy Clean and Anti Dustt. We've been doing very well in those two, actually, and therefore, premium for us has been doing quite well. It's in the luxury category, you know, which is where, some amount of destocking happened. And we are, you know, relatively much stronger, in the states of West Bengal and Kerala. And these two states, have been, having some issues, you know, for the last few months, in terms of sales numbers itself. And therefore, a combination of these two resulted in luxury category being impacted a bit, but otherwise we are fine as far as premium category is concerned.
Got it. And the last question is for industry. So if you look at, you talked about dealers, X number of touch points. So as new entrants come in, do you find existing dealers also working with them, or you find first-time dealers coming into the market? In general, what is... How should one think about it?
So it will be a mix of both, you know, probably some first-time dealers, you know, some amount, some numbers of existing dealers. You know, if you are giving free machines to people, they will keep that free machine. How does it matter to them, you know? So it, it depends on where you are placing. Most of our bigger dealers or meaningful dealers, I would say, so far haven't, you know, gone for it, gone for any of the competitors for that matter. But you know, some of them might take and, but that doesn't mean anything at all, because, you know, just getting a machine in means nothing, you know. So you will have to ensure that the sales happen.
Got it. Got it. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shirish Pardesi from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.
Hi, Abhijit. Good evening. Thanks for the opportunity, and congratulations. The previous participant question was answered, but I just wanted to understand this 8% number is growing at what pace for us?
So if my overall growth rate was, you know, say 6% for the year for 6.5% maybe for decorative-
Yes.
Then this will be growing at 7-8%, you know, 1.5%-2% ahead of the normal, you know, retail decorative sale.
Okay. Okay, got it.
In value terms.
Okay. The other question I wanted to check, if you are covering, say, about 55,000 retail touch point and almost 90% is having the Color Bank. Now, with the competition coming up, is there any behavioral change you have seen in the top 20% dealers, which we are dealing, or maybe who are dealing with more than 1,000 KL per month?
Thousand KL, thousand liters. No, so there has been no major change that has been observed. You know, they are also waiting and watching, and all of us are waiting and watching. Unless some dramatic things happen or something new and different is happening, I don't think anything is going to change much. It's going to continue as is. You know, most of the players are going to retain their share or, you know, probably, you know, improve at times, you know. So I, I, frankly speaking, you know, after these two, three months have gone by, I don't see any change on the ground, you know, which is significant enough.
Okay. Okay. So the reason why I was asking, because you mentioned that the market is now growing at the economy emulsion. So is that the economy emulsion the next fighting ground? And maybe if that is true, what kind of contribution is coming from economy emulsions and lower segment for us in FY 2024?
So the economy emulsion growth is better than possibly the luxury category. As I said, luxury category was impacted by this fear of price drop, which might happen... But that doesn't mean that, you know, that's where we should focus all our energy and try to do something around that. I think, you know, luxury category is going to bounce back, you know, in this quarter and next quarter as well, even more so. Premium category already we are doing well. Economy is also, you know, growing at a decent pace. So all of our, you know, businesses should be okay. You know, I don't see a particular economic category being, you know, is growing or will grow at a much faster pace than others.
What would be contribution for economy and lower segments for us in FY 2024?
Yeah, that, it's difficult for me to say, but, you know, I don't, we don't look at it in that way, the luxury, the kitna percentage or premium, what percentage. But it's significant enough, but it won't be determining factor. You know, all of them are more or less equally balanced, you know, I would say.
Okay. Okay, and the last question: What are the timelines we are expecting Khurda to be operational?
This will be operational from 26th December to 27 March. This is the period when it should become operational.
Sure. All right, and thank you and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. As there are no further questions from the participants, I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you very much for coming and attending to this. You know, it's our hundredth year this year, and we hope that, you know, we live up to the expectations of the investor community as well, and keep doing well in the marketplace. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
On behalf of Emkay Global Financial Services, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.