Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Can Fin Homes Q4 FY23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Investec Capital Services. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in a listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Nidhesh Jain from Investec Capital Services. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Aman. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the Q4 FY23 Earnings Call of Can Fin Homes Limited. To discuss the financial performance of Can Fin Homes and to address your queries, we have with us Mr. Suresh Iyer, MD and CEO, Mr. Amitabh Chatterjee, Deputy MD, Mr. Apurav Agarwal, CFO, Ms. Sharmila, Business Head of Can Fin Homes Limited. I would now like to hand over the call to Mr. Iyer for his opening comments. Over to you, sir.
Good afternoon, and thank you, Nidhesh Jain, and thank you everyone for joining this call on the Q4 results of Can Fin Homes. Just to give a brief highlight of the last, the fourth Q4 performance and the results that I declared yesterday. The company has had a good disbursement growth of 8% in terms of the, for the entire year, and a portfolio growth of 18%. The net NPA has, I mean, the NPA has come down from 0.64% to 0.55% gross within, and the net NPA has also come the collections and recoveries front, the performance has been good. We have been able to absolute, in the value bring down the NPA.
The provisions we have had taken a conservative view, and therefore the provision coverage ratio has also improved over the last year, which I believe would be a very good comfort to all the people. On the NIM front and the spread front, as you all know, the rates have been going up and therefore in the earlier quarters we've had on the liability side, the entire interest going up because of the impact of the increase in rates. Whereas on the asset side, we had the great gradual increase which was happening because of the reset at different points in time. The entire impact of this rate hike in the on the asset side has not yet experienced in the books.
In the coming two quarters also we expect the impact of this rate hike because of the interest reset tenures. Therefore, the interest spread will slightly start improving going forward, which you would have seen has already happened in the Q4 as well because a sizable chunk of about INR 10,000 crore has witnessed the impact of a rate hike in this quarter. That's about it in terms of the performance. The cost to income ratio is also down from 18.32% to 16.93%. I leave it to the, to all of you for eyes open for questions. Thank you.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Devansh Nigotia from SIMPL. Please go ahead.
Yeah, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, in our asset liability statement you mentioned for the April to June bucket, there was a mismatch of I think three and a half thousand crores. Can you just elaborate on that?
Sorry, can you please repeat? The voice was a bit on the lower side.
Yeah. Can you hear me?
Yeah, yeah. It's better.
Yeah. The asset liabilities statement that we share every 3 months, 6 months, over there for April to June quarter, there is a INR 3,500 crore mismatch, so just wanted to gain clarity on that.
Yeah. We are carrying sanctioned undisbursed limits from the banks, which takes care of the short-term liquidity management.
How much is the limit?
The undrawn limit is roughly around INR 4,600 right now.
Basically the April to June bucket mismatch will be taken care of with these undrawn lines with the banks?
Yes.
we were looking to raise capital, so any updates on that? are we still evaluating or any thoughts which you can share?
No, no. If the need arises, we will also... As of now, there is, I mean, there is no immediate step for the raising of capital. As and when the need arises, we will be looking at it.
Okay. eight times leverage is what we are comfortable with?
Yeah, about eight times. I think even the even with the rating agencies, I feel there is no issue with the gearing of about 8. In fact, the gearing has slightly come down in the last 1 year. Now it's below eight actually.
In our salary, the customer mix we share that 50% is government and our main salary. What prevents them from taking a BT towards banks because they can save 1.5% over there? Why what prevents them from going to the banks? If you can just share, is there an entry barrier which if at all there is any, or is it something else?
No, there is as such, I mean, it's if you can see the fact that they have come to us is also because of the service and the dedicated team because we have a single product company, obviously the 100% focus is on giving customer service. Second thing is, you know, instead of, you know, we have a network where the branch managers themselves are directly dealing with the customers, there's an association of the customer with the, with our staff as well. For actually for, up to one person and all, the actual impact on the EMI on an ongoing basis is not much.
The kind of service that they are getting and the, you know, comfort of coming to us and having a loan sanction in a quick time and the local service that is available is what for that they are ready to pay a little bit of a premium, which converted into EMI terms doesn't become much.
Okay.
Our if you can see the prepayment rates are not at all worrying. In fact, it's despite of the steady state, there's no such worry under the prepayment rates either.
Okay. Sir, just on undrawn limits, what is the interest rate on that?
Sorry?
The banks. The undrawn limits that we have with the banks, what is the interest rate that we pay on that?
These are basically linked to certain benchmarks that would be like decided at the time that we draw them. Basically it would be decided on the time of the disbursement draw down. There is no in case you are asking as to whether we have to pay any charges for holding on to these undisbursed portions, no, there are no such charges. It's only a sanction limit which will start where the meter will start once we draw the funds.
I'm still confused that if there will be repayments which will be, I mean, the repayment that will happen will be more than the disbursement will be more than this April to June bucket for current offset we are fulfilling with the banks, but there is some interest that we'll be paying on that. That is what my question is.
Okay. I'll just explain. We have a monthly collection which is approximately a little around INR 500 crore-INR 550 crore. In the one quarter itself, we'll be collecting in terms of the EMI and in terms of whatever now collections that come from the customers is the trend that we have observed including the prepayment comes to around INR 500 crore a month, which is INR 1,500 crore in the quarter. That plus if you look at the, you know, undrawn limits that we are having. We are quite comfortable in terms of the liability or the thing which is due, coming due for payment.
One more thing that we are not taking into account in that SLS statement, that is as per norms, we should not take the available CP limit, which is available to that anytime we can draw from market and to meet our funds. That is not used for as per guidance. It is not used for taking as a inflow of fund for the computation of SLS statement.
Correct.
Okay. Thanks a lot.
Welcome.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Gaurav Kochar from Mirae Asset. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my question. Good afternoon, gentlemen, congrats on the quarter. Sir, you've made a standard asset provisioning of INR 25 crore in this quarter. Can you explain the reason for creating this? Is this for strengthening the restructured provisions, or in general, some strengthening of stage two provisions?
It's not actually for any of this thing. It's just that, as I mentioned at the beginning itself that, we are just strengthening and taking a conservative and strengthening it for the improvement in the provision coverage ratio. It's in the ECL model, whatever is there that we have taken plus... Beyond that, there is a slight additional that is being carried for the just to improve the on a conservative basis, the PPOP.
Okay. What would be the total quantum of provisions that we are carrying on balance sheet as on 31st March?
In, uh, 312 .
What was it last quarter if that number is handy?
Yeah. INR 290.
290. All right. All right. This would be across buckets stage one, two and three depending on-
Yeah.
the ECL theology. Understood. Understood. Thanks. Thanks for that. The second question is with respect to the yield, the jump in the yield, that 8.87 went to 9.87 during the quarter. Earlier in the call, you mentioned that there is some bit of repricing which is still pending and which will happen over the next couple of quarters. Just wanted to understand in this context, and also the cost of funding inching up to 7.5%. Where should ideally the NIM settle in FY24? This quarter it was at 3.37%. Incrementally, given that spread has improved and spread will continue to improve, can we expect this to move towards 3.5%-3.6% mark over the next few quarters?
Just to explain, in the last quarter, out of the entire book of about INR 30,000 crore, we had about approximately close to some INR 10,000 crore which came for a reset and where the interest rate was hiked as at the time of the reset. That is what has helped us in improving the NIM and the yield on the book. Additional to that, in fact the rate impact on the new customers also we have been charging at the higher rate post the rate hike. The new customers have all been coming at a higher rate. Both these factors have resulted in the yield improving from 8 point something to 9.888+. That is point number one.
In terms of the second part of your question as to what is the quantum of the portfolio which is yet to experience a rate hike, we still have about INR 18,000 crore, which is yet to receive part or full of the rate hike that has to be passed down. This will come over the next two quarters, that is in the April to June quarter. Another INR 5,500 crore of book is likely to come up for a little bit of price of rate hike. And in the quarter subsequent to that is in the July to September quarter, another about INR 7,500 crore+ is likely to come for a reset. Both these things are will help us in further improving the yield. Right now it's about 3.45%.
Yes, we can expect around 3.5 or thereabouts or a little better also probably, going forward.
Sure.
The other side, you said about the cost of 7.51. Almost the entire liability side, we have already experienced the rate hike on the liability side. From going forward, unless there is some negative impact or something, the rates remaining stable as they are as of the moment, further increase on the cost side is not very likely.
All right. All right. The yield repricing would continue in the next two quarters, whereas on the cost side, large part of it is already behind us. Is that a fair sort of statement?
That's not a fair part. Almost 50% of the rate hike on the asset side has been passed on. Another 50% likely is likely to come up. Around 3.5% kind of a NIM is something, yeah, we can look at, which is 3.45%.
Sure.
A few 5 to 7 basis dips improvement in the NIM can be expected.
Sure, sure. Mathematically, that number looks higher, because if let's say half of your book is going to be repriced, let's say even by 100 basis points, that would take the yields up by 50 to 75 basis points. At the same time, on the cost side, if it is largely done or maybe another 15, 10, 15 basis points comes up, you're talking about 30 basis points of incremental margins over and above the 3.37 you reported. Mathematically this looks like a 3.60 to 3.70 kind of a number. You're saying it will be more or less in the range of 3.5.
Yeah. So it's not an entire 100 bits kind of an increase that we are looking at. So there are some, because last year we increased our cost, our rates on three occasions. Part of the portfolio has already experienced the full three cycles completely, or the three rate hikes has been passed on. In some, two rates, rate revisions are yet to be passed on, and in some only one is yet to be passed on. That way, the on the entire remaining 50%, the entire 1% plus is not likely to pass on. There has got to be two parts. Some of it will experience about 85 bits, the others will experience about 35 bits.
Got it.
That's the kind of break up, yeah.
Sure. Sure. Perfect. Just lastly, on AUM growth, so whilst overall AUM growth remained healthy at 18%, the disbursement was slightly soft, about INR 25 odd billion. Going forward, now that you've taken over, next year, what would be the disbursement target? Maybe let's say overall, yearly disbursement target. In that context, what kind of AUM growth are we looking at from a, from a medium term, maybe two, three years?
See, as I again explained in the beginning that the rate hike that has happened, I mean, or rather I would like to say the rate hike that has happened has slightly impacted the demand as you would also have seen from the commentary from other, you know, rating agencies as well as some banks, that, you know, these rate hikes have impacted the EMI and therefore, you know, there is a rethink by some customers and resulting slight impact on the demand. Even ICRA for that matter had predicted about 13% kind of a growth on all.
Having said that, now with the rates being stable, we can look at some improvement in the demand and some supply side also of course, the CLSS being getting over, there was a slight, you know, shortage or reduction in the supply, which also should come back in the market. Once that happens in the coming year, probably in the second half, definitely, we can expect the demand to be really picking up. On a portfolio basis, we are confident that about 18% to 20% kind of a growth in the loan book should be possible.
Okay. Okay, sure. Great, sir. Just a related question to this. If I look at our average ticket size is around INR 25 lakhs. Maybe at GRUH, the ticket sizes were slightly lower, maybe more affordable, sort of a segment, in GRUH Finance. Is there a possibility of maybe the share of the lower ticket loans incrementally, you know, increasing or maybe moving towards the INR 10, 15 lakh category, or the share of INR 10, 15 lakh category increasing over the next 2, 3 years? Is there a possibility of that?
As of the moment, if you look at the branch network, there's a difference in the branch network that GRUH was having and the branch network that here at Can Fin Homes is there. Here we are having a maximum presence in the metro and urban towns, and the business is coming from the towns as well as from the periphery areas. GRUH had a very large, you know, portion of branches which were in the deeper pockets. Obviously the deeper pockets, the property costs themselves are a little on the lower side. Here, if you look at the urban towns and the metros, the property costs therefore, itself is on the higher side. Like, you won't get a property even in the periphery of a Bangalore or a Pune or places like that at a cost of less than INR 35 lakhs to 40 lakhs. Okay?
Right.
That being the difference, you know, if that mix has to change, then there has to be a much, you know, deeper penetration will have to come, which will be from branch expansion also. That can't happen very quickly or overnight. As of the moment, the focus will remain in this sweet spot, which is around INR 20 lakhs to INR 25 lakhs.
Sure. Sure. Perfect. Perfect. Great. Great, sir. Thanks a lot and all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Ankush Agrawal from Surge Capital. Please go ahead.
Thank you for taking my question. Firstly, Suresh, sir, now that you have joined Can Fin. I wanted to know what will be your key priorities and focuses here for next coming years, like in terms of, say, branch expansion or adding new product portfolios or, you know, in terms of what kind of construct do you look at Can Fin Homes in terms of spreads, NIMs, ROA, ROE and leverage, if you can highlight that?
In terms of the first part of the question regarding expansion, yes, in the last three years, because of this COVID and all, there was a pause in terms of the branch expansion, which we would be looking at. In terms of the presence geographically, we are having a very widespread presence across the country. Within those existing areas of operation, definitely there are opportunities in large upcoming towns and big cities where we can look at. We will be looking at it, but it will be on a gradual basis, where we'll be looking about 10 to 15 branches a year. That will be something as, you know, on a very manageable basis that we can look at, and that's what we'll be looking at.
In terms of the business mix, yes, there's a very healthy mix as of the moment of 70% of salaried and, you know, incrementally also, and SE and PF about 30%. It's a very comfortable mix as of the moment, which we would like to continue. The focus will continue to be on growing the business in the retail segment.
Okay. In terms of, you know, kind of ROA, ROE and leverage that you will target?
The ROA is right now inching up and it's already 2.17. ROA. I think that's a very comfortable kind of a ROA that we are looking at. The ROE is also, you know, now about.
About 16, 17.
Yeah, 17. It just crossed 17. I think, you know, in terms of this, it's a very healthy ROE.
Yeah. Okay. Again, touching on the disbursement side. You've mentioned that, for FY 2024, you are confident on 18% to 20% growth on the book. In terms of disbursement, how do you look at it?
I'm sorry, I didn't get your question. From the disbursement side, as in?
Like for the loan book, you have guided that, you're confident on 18% to 20% growth for FY 2024. Right?
Correct.
In terms of disbursement, do you believe that there will be a healthy disbursement growth to accompany this loan book growth?
Yes. About a 20% growth in the loan book will be able to help us achieve or maintain this, 20% loan book growth as well.
No, at the 20% disbursement growth, I believe, the loan book growth will be much higher, right?
No. It won't be very high because, you know, you also have to look at the prepayments and amortization that happens. If you look at our 20% growth going forward, we are talking about somewhere in the range of about 10,000 something growth, 10,500 odd kind of growth. From that, if you look at the prepayments and all, there would be prepayments and amortization happening. Net-net, about INR 6,000-7,000 crore is the growth that will happen in the book, which will be about 20%.
Okay. Got it. Thank you. That's all.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Kawal from BSP. Please, Kawal.
Yeah. Hi, Suresh. Just on the distribution side, you highlighted that about 10 to 15 branches that you're looking to add. Just from a medium-term perspective, you know, I think currently the business is largely sourced from the DSA network. How do you see the sourcing mix and the branch expansion journey? I mean, would it change, or by and large you'll just I mean, move in the same current template? Any thoughts around sourcing and distribution network?
Yeah. In terms of the present, the DSA channel is a very strong, you know, source for us, for our sourcing channel for us, and that will continue. Yes, there is a lot of opportunities in tapping the existing customer base and, you know, getting business from our existing walk-in customers and doing some digital marketing as well. We'll be exploring that. That probably could slightly, you know, both increase the composition from the direct business also. The DSA business will continue to constitute a sizable portion of our sourcing.
Understood. In terms of geographic concentration, I mean, you know, historically, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu used to be a big part over a period of time. While they're still significant today, the share has been coming down over the last few years. I mean, just, you know, if you take a 3-year view, how do you think about geographic concentration and within that, you know, sort of opportunities in tier 2, tier 3? I mean, any thoughts there around that would be useful.
Our present composition of the book is that about close to 65%+ of the book is coming from the southern states and the remaining from the other rest of the country. Yes, going forward, obviously, as the though the base is lower, the growth can still be on the higher side. In terms of that, this can inch up somewhere in the range of about 60/40.
Okay. Okay, got it. Just last couple of things. In terms of gaps, any gaps that you see either on the, you know, technology side or any other HR side or anything around the any gaps that you believe that needs to be filled in the next, you know, 3, 6, 9-month period? Any thoughts around that?
As such, there is, I mean, there is no major kind, something to be worried about actually. The normal things that are there, that would obviously be there. I don't see any kind of a challenge in that sense. The team is quite stable, the well-experienced, you know, the processes are very much in place, the audit and the all these, you know, pillars are very much in place. Compliance and regulation. There are all these aspects when you look at it's a very kind of, robust, machine which is already in place. Nothing in which I would say is an area of concern.
Got it. Last question is on the hiring of the CRO and the CFO, where are we in that?
CFO is already on board.
Okay.
Hello. I'm there.
Okay.
He's on the call with us, yeah.
Okay, great. CRO?
We do have a, you know, a gentleman who is presently looking at it. Yeah, we will be looking at somebody going forward, because we still have, you know, people retiring and senior people on the board who will be. We'll be looking at something.
Great. Wish you all the very best. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Manoj Oberoi from PS Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, sir. Hi. Good afternoon. This is Rajiv here. Thanks for taking my question. Sir, the first question is on the BT out quantum in this quarter. What was it and what was it in the last quarter? Also if you can tell us what was the movement in stage two assets on sequential basis.
The BT out per quarter is roughly in the range of INR 100 crores.
In a quarter?
Yeah, in a quarter, full quarter.
approximately same number last quarter will be?
Probably, yes. We've not actually seen any change in terms of the BT, the pressure coming for balance transfer.
Mm-hmm.
What is the regular course of business that is happening, that is what we've been experiencing.
Correct. What I see is that, the absolute portfolio rundown in the quarter is lower than the preceding quarter. What would explain that, sir?
We also had a, you know, CLSS claim that was received in the this quarter about 30 some so total about INR 262 crore. INR 272 crore, sorry, is the CLSS that also was there during the year. That is also one of the reasons why this is on the higher side. As you know, the CLSS credit that is received has to straight go to the principal.
Yeah. Sure. sir, in, on cost of funds, you're expecting that, the cost of funds may not increase, significantly from here on. I was looking at your marginal cost of funds for the quarter. It is 7.5%, and your stock cost of funds is 6.3%. If the marginal rate is so higher than the existing overall rate, then it has to go up, materially.
Yeah. As I said, on the, on the yield also now we've seen about 8.99, and going forward, we have these two tranches of about totaling up to close about INR 18,000 crore, which is due for reset in the coming two quarters. Plus the incremental business is also happening with an average yield of about eight, 9.8% plus. That way, if you look at the, at the math, it will continue to, the spread will continue to be maintained at the present rate of 2.65.
Okay. Just last question. Sure, sure. Please continue.
No, one more thing. This quarter we have raised NCD to the tune of INR 1,000 crores at a rate of 8.45% as a mandatory requirement. I think that has led to a slight increase in marginal cost of fund.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Sir, what are your thoughts on tapping the assessed income segment? While, you spoke about the ticket size remaining where it is, the composition of salaried and self-employed remaining where it is, from a customer profile perspective, informal income, are we thinking on those lines or would we be thinking on those lines sometime in the future?
As of now, we are comfortable with the present 70/30 kind of a mix. I mean, right now, we look at it as we go forward, but as of the moment, we are quite comfortable with the 70/30 mix.
Sure. My one question on stage two assets, I was requiring those details. Yeah.
Yes. Stage two assets have not moved much, but the concern that you had earlier with, 25 revision has been, like, moving into standard. That has been, partly explained by, say, yes, that's in the previous discussion just now, that, basically just after the profit, certain buffer has been, like, created. That's it.
Okay. Thank you. Best of luck.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Onkar Ghugardare from Shree Investments. Please go ahead. Onkar, your line is unmuted. Please unmute yourself and proceed with your question.
Yeah. Just wanted to know, at the beginning of the presentation, you have stated that, the journey has just started, 35 years and counting, and it's just the beginning. I mean, why do you say like that? Just wanted to know.
It's a market. It's a very big market and we are still a small player, so there is a huge scope for growth. There's a very long runway. Basically that's what we look at it.
Correct.
We're very positive about this.
Yeah. In terms of the growth rates, if you talk about that, I mean, it has been averaged, right? I mean, other players are growing at much faster rates and with kind of similar NPA.
What I'm trying to say is that it's not from the point of view of a growth or an immediate growth or a spurt in growth or anything. From the point of view that at 35 years also, we are young because we still have a long way to build the organization and two, that we also have a long runway in terms of the housing market in India. From that potential, we have, you know, from INR 31,000 crore, about INR 100,000 crore is still something which is very much in the not so far away dream for us.
As far as the addressable market is concerned, it is for each and every player in the housing, right? Housing finance company.
We also are very positive about, so that we just share. I mean, others also share the same view. That's about it. Yeah.
Earlier you used to give, certain targets for like next year or, for two years. You have stopped giving that. Any particular reason for that?
We just shared, so I think there was an earlier question as to what is the loan book growth. We did mention about the loan book growth in the range of 18% to 20%. That's what we will do with this.
Correct. Earlier there was some stated, it was given in your presentation, you have just removed that. I was asking about that.
I mean, there's nothing of that sort that. I think this being the standard thing we have been talking about. 18 to 20 is kind of what we have been saying for the last few years, and we continue to have the same. Maybe earlier presentation may have been there. This presentation, I think it is not there.
Yeah. I was talking about that only.
The story will remain the same. 18% to 20%, we are quite comfortable. It's a healthy growth rate. At the same time, it is a very manageable growth rate. That's what we will look at.
Okay. As far as the e-debt to equity, you were saying, eight times leverage is you are comfortable with. I mean, you just said it is 7.97%. I mean, you said that whenever it is required. I mean, is there any particular level in your mind that at certain this rate, at this point, we will do it? At certain gearing, we will do it?
See, as of the moment, the looking at the growth trend, if you look at it, the internal accruals and the healthy profit ratio that we are having, the internal accruals should also be able to give us a good amount of growth scope for growth. Plus, if you look at the requirement or the regulatory limit, it's 12 times of the network we can borrow. There is still a good runway that we are having.
Correct. You haven't gone beyond this, like, for many years now, right?
I think, sir, if you look at the maybe 2018, 2019, that time our debt equity was more, it was close to nine and 10. From that, it has now been reduced to eight.
Correct.
8 is comfortable for us, and our bankers are quite comfortable at giving at a cheaper rate at this leverage ratio.
In the near term, there is nothing in the offing, you are saying, right?
See, we have got a enabling clause in AGM about raising of capital. If we find that growth opportunities are there, good growth opportunities are there, we may review our position and if required, there is always an enabling clause, we can raise the capital.
Okay. As far as the current situation is concerned, what, how is the situation you are?
I think maybe around in coming two to three quarters, we do not feel any need as such. With the profits which are being plowed back, we should be able to, you know, take through for the year also.
Okay. Just one question on the demand side. Any pressure you are seeing on the housing demand side?
As we said in the beginning, yes, because of the rates, there was a little bit of a slowdown, which we expect will, you know, change as the rates have now remaining flat and will hopefully go start going down also. That should also push the demand.
Okay. as a personal opinion on the rate fronts going, say next 2, 3 years, how much reduction do you see?
Uh.
Just a personal opinion. Your personal opinion on the rate cut, which you would be expecting, say, next two, three years. Not your particular your opinion, not the company's opinion.
I mean, it, I can talk about wishful thinking, but I guess, a qualified opinion can only be given by the RBI.
Correct.
Determine that. Otherwise, it can only be wishful thinking.
Correct. Okay. All right. Thank you.
Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pooja Ahuja from Monarch Networth Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Since you've mentioned in this quarter, we've taken higher standard asset provisioning and increased the PCR. For the next two, three years, could you guide in terms of credit costs? What sort of numbers are we building in?
No, we, it's not because of that we are expecting any higher credit cost that we have, you know, made this provision. As we said that, we are quite comfortable with the, and the collections and the recovery position is quite comfortable. It's just that, you know, just to the end of this thing of being around on the conservative side and to improve the PCR ratio, we have actually, had this additional provision. Otherwise, we are quite comfortable. We don't expect to see any spike or any increase in the credit cost going forward also.
Is that 10 to 15 basis points kind of a sustainable level for our kind of model?
Sorry?
10-15 bits, is that a sustainable level of credit cost we can expect?
No incremental credit cost is not 10 bits that is what I think credit cost should hover around maybe-5 dips or maybe 7 because they may have maximum 7 dips. That's what.
Okay. Okay, thank you for that. Secondly, on the borrowing mix, we've seen that the CP share has gone down. Just wanted your perspective, how do we see this mix going forward?
CP is used as a cost-saving tool, and, as you experience with the markets, capital markets are not so favorable in the closing quarters of the year. We analyze whatever is the best possible solution, be it from the bank side or from the capital market. Accordingly, we choose the source of fundings.
Okay. All right. Yeah, that's it from my end. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Jigar Jani from BNK Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my question. Couple of questions. I'm just looking at your slide on slide number 12. We have seen an increase in spread on a sequential basis, but our NIMs have compressed on a sequential basis. Any one-offs there in the NIM figure?
What was the last part of it? Is there any?
Any one-offs? We have seen net interest margin, your reported net interest margin drop from 3.47% to 3.37%, despite spreads increasing by 2.24% to 2.36%.
Yeah. There is just a timing difference in this quarter. On a longer term basis, if you look at the coming quarters, there is, there will be likely improvement or in the spread NIMs. As I explained earlier, we are expecting the on the asset side, the rates to be slightly adjusted in the as the impact of the reset happens.
Okay. Sir, can you just guide with the... When you say 7.51 is the cost in this slide, that is the cost for the entire quarter, or is it the exit cost that you are giving us? Because there is another slide, on slide 16, where you are giving the quarter four cost to be slightly lower. Just wanted to reconcile which is the quarterly cost figure.
Yes.
Okay.
What happens is, in this slide, we give the incremental cost of borrowing for the specific quarter, and the next slide we give the total cost of funds for that quarter.
Okay, understood. Right now, what would be the incremental cost of borrowing?
Uh.
Could be similar?
It could be on a lower side than the last quarter because, last quarter we had to raise NCD as per the regulations of the NHB, which was on the higher side, and the composition of the NCD was also on the higher side to comply with the regulations. This quarter, incremental cost of borrowing should be lesser than the last quarter.
Okay. Maybe, any figure you could guide towards 10, 20, 50 basis, how much would it be lower?
It is difficult because right now.
Okay. Understood. No worry.
I think it is generally first quarter the disbursement generally doesn't happen as it happened in fourth quarter. It depends on what will be our requirement of funds. At that point of time, we'll see what will be our incremental cost of borrowing for this quarter. Maybe CP is prevailing at low rate and we will come down. After our ALM supports raising of CP, we may raise CP also. That will be at much lower rate than the bank borrowing.
Understood. Sir, what was the outstanding restructured book, and has some part of the restructured book started paying, and how has been the performance there in terms of, collection efficiency and numbers, maybe the bounce rates, if you could guide something?
Yeah. The total restructured book is around INR 695 crores. It has just in fact, effective February, started coming out of it. It's actually too early to give a prediction or a kind of a listing as to how it'll behave. Efforts we have already initiated, and as the customers are also, you know, will come back and start paying. That's the kind of thing. It's not a very large book that is there. We expect that it'll the repayments also will start. I guess the next quarter will be a better time to, you know, to really give you a picture, or we'll be in a position to give you a picture as to what is the trend of the repayments.
Sure, sure. Sir, last question is on the cost to income ratio, any guidance? Will it hover around the 16% to 17% levels?
We are already at, a little at par below 17%, and, we can expect it in the same range of about 16% to 17% kind of a range where it'll operate.
Okay. Thank you so much, sir, for answering my questions and best of luck.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Abhijit Tibrewal from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thank you for taking my questions. Firstly, just wanted to understand, has there been some change in the way we classify bank borrowings and NHB borrowings? The reason I ask is, if I look at the funding mix or the borrowing mix that we give, please correct me if I'm wrong, but numbers for March 2022 have been restated. There have been some reclassification between banks and NHBs. Just looking at your Q4 Presentation of FY 2022 and Q4 Presentation of FY 2023.
No. See, Abhijit, actually what has happened, you know, from the year 2021, 2022, as per SEBI LODR, we have to raise NCDs to the 25% of the incremental borrowing.
Yes.
In future, you can find that NCD finding a place of 25% in the borrowing mix. In the coming future, because in incremental borrowing, whatever we will do will come through the NCDs. In that case, our bank borrowing may come down. That is one thing. That is, what we envisage in the future. Our CPs have decreased because as told, because we find that bank borrowings are cheaper than the CP borrowings. If, again, if you find that the bank borrowing are costly and CP we will use, is at a low cost, our CP may increase. That is the major change which has happened and likely to happen.
Understood, sir. Sir, basically, I mean, the way we used to kind of classify, basically the way we used to report our borrowing, it has not really changed, right?
No, no. There is no change in that.
Got it. Sir, secondly, on, you did touch upon, the demand outlook and the fact that, most other, lending institutions have also acknowledged that there was some, at least sentimental impact in demand, on mortgages. People were, maybe customers were delaying their purchases. I mean, with, I mean, some expectations of stability in interest rates, you are expecting, this demand to recover in the second half of this fiscal year. Is that the right way to kind of look at it?
You are right. If the rates remain steady and or if they come down, then the demand I think should start coming, will be back in the market. Should see an improvement.
I mean, that's actually why I asked. Basically, what I was trying to understand is, during an interest rate upcycle, the fact that as a franchise we do annual reset on interest rates on a rolling basis, there was merit in, I would say customers sticking around with us. Now that interest rates are stabilizing, and then there are expectations that whenever in the next 6 months, 9 months, wherever interest rates start coming down, the fact that their interest rates will be reset on an annual basis while banks will be very prompt in passing on any repo rate cuts. Is there a risk that customers might want to move on or take balance transfers to other lending institutions?
I mean, given that you've seen such cycles, what is it that you would typically do in a interest rate down cycle? How do you kind of retain those customers?
First of all, you know, this kind of a 200 and bits rate hike in a very short period is kind of unprecedented. Normally, any rate hike or reduction happens on a, in a more gradual manner. Therefore, you know, this kind of a very high difference between the prevailing rates for new customers and existing customers is not usually there. If the rates start going down in a gradual manner, the difference between the current and the existing rate for the customer and for the new customer would not be, would not affect much, and the reset will not be much of a problem.
However, as regards what we normally do for such kind of things, we look at, we have an internal rating system, and we look at the customer, and based on the rating of the customer, which is on multiple parameters and gets reset every year. We will try to retain the customers who are really good, and we'll look at that. That is an option that we can always think of and, you know, look at to retain the best customer. Normally, as I said, it's normally not so much of an issue if it's a gradual kind of a reduction over a period of time.
Understood. Just maybe adding on to that, hypothetically speaking, given that there has been a very sharp over, I mean, I would say maybe 10, 11 months, very sharp increase of 20 to 50 basis points increase in repo rates. For whatever reasons, again, hypothetically speaking, if there is, let's say, a 50 basis point kind of a rate cut anytime this fiscal year. I mean, what you're suggesting is, while we will continue to have annual resets, just like we have contractually, but there is still that room to retain that customer who kind of comes to us and says that, "Listen, I'm getting 50 bits, 75 bits lower from another bank." So that flexibility still remains with us, is what I understand. Right?
Flexibility is there. As I also said that a small difference in the rate would not be too very difficult to convince because in terms of the customer, it's effectively EMI that matters. The EMI generally doesn't change. It's the EMI remaining constant, the general impact is given in the balance tenure. Customers generally don't react so much to these kind of things. Floating interest rate or variable rate thing has been prevalent for more than close to 20 years now. The customers are also aware of how it operates.
Okay. Sir, it's the last question, from my side. I mean, you have already kind of suggested that we have increased the provisioning cover on standard loans considerably. That point is well received. I mean, two things that I wanted to understand here. I mean, given that more often than not, when we don't take, basically provisions during a particular quarter, we kind of defend it by saying that, listen, a lot of this moves in line with the LGDs, PDs, and what is the requirement of a ECL. Obviously, I mean, there are quarters where, we conservatively take, provisions to shore up the provisioning coverage ratio.
Basically, are we now kind of comfortable that these kind of provision cover or do you think that there could be quarters going forward where we could see that, I mean, conservatively we might choose to build onto that provisioning cover?
You mean to say, would there be a position of adding to this kind of cover or you are saying would there be a withdrawal? I mean, just seeking clarity.
Yes, sir. Just clarify. Fine. What I mean is, I mean, going forward, will there still be a case of, I mean, adding on to this, provisioning to further increase the provisioning cover?
Yeah. We would definitely like to have a strong, it definitely adds to the quality, the strength of the balance sheet. Little provisioning would definitely be something we would, look at at opportune times.
Great, sir. I think this is very useful. Sir, congratulations on assuming the role of the CEO at Can Fin Homes Limited. Thank you so much.
Thank you, thank you so much.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your question to one per participant. If time permits, you may join the queue for any follow-up. Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Pavan Kumar from RatnaTraya Capital. Please go ahead.
Sir, can you give us the recovery numbers, for this quarter and last quarter?
Pavan, can you repeat your answer?
Secondly.
Your voice is not very clear.
Sir, can you give us the recovery numbers for this quarter and last quarter? Secondly, in the stage two portion of restructured book, there was a portion where we were not being paid any EMIs. What is the size of that portion right now?
Sorry, what is that?
What is the size of that portion right now?
As I said earlier.
The restructured portion of the book. Yeah.
The restructured book about INR 695 crores, in fact, has just started coming out of it, effective mostly from February. The major chunk of it is yet to come out of the restructuring, so it's too early a time to actually talk about or give you a picture on the, you know, the performance of the restructured accounts. Probably, as I said earlier, the next quarter would be a time when we would be able to give you a clearer picture on how the accounts are moving.
Okay. Can you give us, roughly how... what percentage of these accounts could be paying right now? Any EMI, any EMIs?
We have almost, you know, in terms of the collection, this thing, about 78% of the customers have already paid and are regular. I mean, are, have started servicing the payment. Those who have come out of it, which is actually a very small number.
Okay. What would be the recoveries number for this quarter and last quarter, sir, and for the year, if you could share?
You mean roll forward and roll back?
Yes.
Okay. I'll just tell you. Quarter wise we have the figures, but I'll just add up to give you for the year just a second. If you give us a minute or probably we could share it with you. We have about INR 53 crore has been the roll forward and about INR 48 crore is the roll back during the current year.
Okay. INR 48 crores roll back.
just to-
And, uh, when-
Just to clarify, See, we have recovered around INR 16 crores of NPA and slippage was to the tune of INR 8.62 crores.
And, uh, this is for, uh-
Q4. That is in Q4.
This is in Q4.
Q4.
53 and 48 was for the entire year as well?
I think we'll have to give the total and give it to you.
Okay.
In fact, our recoveries are more than the slippages.
Okay. Okay, sir. What would be your pool of recovery, sir? I'm assuming, slip, the recovery is being slippages is not in normal condition, right? Or is it?
Yeah. Yeah. Normal condition. see, whatever NPA is there, we have identified around close to INR 70 crores of NPA, which we are targeting to recover depending upon the availability of purchaser for the properties. These we are targeting. Let us see what happens, because these I think are the targeted numbers for this year.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Going forward, as an earlier participant also asked, is there going to be, is the provisioning going to be bulky in Q4 as the case right now? Would it be spread evenly over the, from here on?
We would definitely be maintaining this kind of a PCR ratio and let's see. We will, whatever is required, if a good opportunity comes around, we would also like to add it to this.
Okay. Okay, sir. Fine. Thank you.
Thank you.
Sir.
Before we take the next question, I'd like to remind the participants to please limit their question to one per participant. The next question is from the line of Shreepal Doshi from Equirus. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Good evening, and thank you for giving me the opportunity. My question, little bit more on the, say, the superannuation of our senior management team. My understanding is that a large number of employees will be in the, from the senior management will be retiring over the next three years. Is that a fair understanding and what is the?
Sorry, can you repeat? Your voice is breaking.
Yes.
Uh.
Shri, your voice is breaking. Please use the handset or come in a network area.
Am I breaking, sir?
It is still breaking, sir.
Am I better now?
Yes, slightly better now.
My question was with respect to the superannuation of our employees, who've been part of the organization for quite some time. What is the thought process to fill in that senior management positions over the next two years? And what... Yeah.
Yeah. We have a very, you know, stable team, not only at the top, but across the bands, various bands. We have a lot of people even in the second level and a good amount of succession planning that is happening, where we have enough people who can be groomed and can be brought up to the level as and when there are vacancies in the senior teams. That is not an issue because across the bands, we have enough number of people who have been stable for a long time with the organization.
Okay. We will be open to, say, hiring from the open market as well, or the thought process would be to groom and upscale?
If at all there is a, you know, opening and we are, we require from outside, we will be open to it.
Got it, sir. Got it. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nilesh Jethani from BOI Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Thanks for the opportunity. Most of my questions have been answered.
Nilesh, please use the handset. Your voice is feeble.
Am I audible now?
Yes, please go ahead.
Yeah. I had one question. Historically, pre-COVID, our spread when we compared to the banks, et cetera, was typically 1.5% with regards to the interest rates what we charge. During COVID, we brought it down to 0.75%, the spread between what we as Can Fin charge and what banks typically charge. Now with most of the COVID, et cetera, behind us and state of economy largely coming back to normalcy, just wanted to understand what outlook do we carry with regards to charging clients on interest rates versus what banks are charging today. Thank you.
See, we will be operating in a very competitive scenario wherever it is possible, but at the same time maintaining a healthy spread and, you know, NIMs. A 2.5% kind of a spread and a 3.5% kind of a NIM is something we will be looking at. Within that ambit, we will be kind of pricing our loans. That's how it'll operate.
Okay. Got it. To achieve that number, how far are we with regards to yield, the incremental yield what we can charge the clients?
Right now we are, almost about, anywhere between 50 to 100 basis points, compared to the market, a little on the higher side compared to the best in the market. Looking to our kind of segment that we are operating in, considering the kind of service and everything that we are able to offer, we are able to manage this kind of a difference in interest rate.
Okay. Okay. Got it. Yeah. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Gaurav Jani from Prabhudas Lilladher. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Congrats on a good quarter. Just a few questions. One is, can you quantify the total investment income for this full year, please?
The total investment income for the year is INR 109 crores.
Understood. We would right now be at an LCR of 60%?
Much more than that, sir.
Can you quantify that, please?
we are in the range of about 100%.
Understood.
the requirement is for 60, but we are maintaining close to 100% on an average, this thing, LCR.
Understood. The point being no further drag basically on the margins because LCR.
No. You're talking about the increase from 60 to 70, the thing which is-
Correct. Correct. Correct. Correct.
We are already in a very comfortable position, so we will not be required to add to this portfolio going forward.
Understood. Secondly, sir, you know, the tax rate for the quarter was lower while you have created contingent provisions. You know, probably there weren't also any write-offs per se. Why is the tax rate low?
Sir, tax rate is based on certain assumptions, and at each year-end, we analyze the actual amount of like deduction or exemption that we are eligible to. That's being audited at last quarter of the year. Also we are able to generate the exact amount of provision that we can take an allowance from the income tax. Accordingly, in the current quarter, the exact income tax, income tax computation could be arrived at, accordingly, a little like provision was like restated or actualized to the overall number.
If you look at it, our close to 90%+ of the book is purely housing, long-term housing. In fact, on the entire book, practically you can say we are getting the benefit of 36(1)(viii). If you look at the corporate tax rate of 25%, effectively the tax rate should be 20%, considering that almost 100% of our book is eligible for the 36(1)(viii) benefit of long-term housing. That, that's the calculation which determines the actual tax rate.
Sure. I mean, sustainably we would look at 25, 26, right? I mean, that's the fair number to look at.
Sorry?
Sustainable basis, 25, 26 should be looked at, right, as the tax rate?
No. As I said, looking to the 36(1)(viii) benefit is almost our entire book is eligible for long-term housing benefit of 36(1)(viii). Going by that, considering the 25% tax rate, our actual tax rate, effective tax rate should be lower. You can say somewhere in the range of about 22% or something can be looked at.
No, because historically, sir, it was a bit higher, so I just want to, you know, re-reconfirm on that.
No, no, you're right. The 36(1)(viii) benefit is something which comes at a very large rate. We have just computed it and that has been what we have taken closer to the actual based on our experience.
Understood. Understood. Just a clarification, sir. Furthering your point on the provision bit, I mean, from here on, just to reconfirm, you would like to maintain a sort of a 50% to 52% PCR, right, from here on?
We would like to maintain a healthy PCR. That is correct.
Sure.
That's why we have also increased it from the previous 54% to 62%. We are kind of, you know, just strengthening the balance sheet.
Understood. Last question, sir, just a data point. If you could just quantify the total slippages, and the recoveries upgrades for the full year?
as I said, overall the NPA has.
Rollback is INR 54. Roll forward is INR 52 crore.
Yeah. roll forward is 52 and it is 54, not 48 as I said earlier.
Yeah.
roll forward is INR 52 crore during the year and roll back are the ones which came out of NPA because of full recovery from those accounts and regularization of the accounts is about INR 54 crore.
Understood. Understood. Thanks. All the best.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Darshan Shah from Multi-Act. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. I just have two questions. One is there any exceptional item or a one-off in fees and commission income for the quarter? What would be the collection efficiency of the restructured book in the month of March and April?
Sorry, what is the second part of the question?
Collection efficiency in the restructured book in the month of March and April.
The first point to answer your first part of the question about any charges. If you recollect, we had this COVID period where we were not levying a lot of charges, which as per the Supreme Court ruling, we were not levying a lot of charges which were regular as per the fees and charges structure of the company. Now that the COVID is beyond us, we have those kind of charges which are there have been are being levied to the customer like, you know, whatever, for delayed payment and things like that. That is one of the reasons.
As for the second portion, as to this, I still say it is too early to predict the kind of a recovery ratio or collection efficiency from the restructured book because a very small component has come out of restructuring. However, on whatever it is there, about, 78% is the portfolio which is now servicing.
Okay.
Out of small portfolio that has come out of restructuring.
What's the proportion of the portfolio which is still not out of moratorium?
We still have about.
75% is to come.
75% is yet to come out. Whatever has come out has come out only in February and March, mostly in March.
Okay. By when will this 75% come out of the morat?
This entire INR 695 crore will be out of restructuring by November 2023, end of November 2023.
Okay. This on the fees and commission income, so is this a new normal now in terms of the quarterly run rate or on the?
Annually you can say this will be the kind of a new norm, this kind of a fees.
Okay. Okay, thanks. That's it from my side.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Jaski Rat from IIFL. Please go ahead.
Hello. Hi. Am I audible?
Yes.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
Yeah. Congratulations, sir for the good set of numbers. One of my question has already been answered about the expansion of branches. My next question is, that how much time does it take for you guys to open a branch in a new city? In how much time does the branch gets to its breakeven point?
See, there are three parts to it. One is we already have satellite centers where we have an experienced staff. We already have a customer base. Once we upgrade this staff, there will be almost minimal or nil breakeven time because, you know, these we already have a customer base which is servicing. Two, if it is on the geographies where we are already operating and near to the existing centers from where we are operating, again, it'll again be a very short period of about one and a half years. If it is, you know, absolutely new geography, then in that case, it could probably cross about two years.
In the coming, one or two years, what would be your trajectory of the geographical expansion? Like, will it be more focused towards north or it will continue towards the south area only?
no, it'll be balanced because, you know, right now also we have about 65% of the book in the south, but we still have a good penetration and presence in the other rest of the country as well. It'll all be almost mixed you can say. Overall, in terms of the overall book, as I mentioned earlier, we would like to move from a 65% plus to which is to in the south to close to 60% in the south and 40% in the near future is what we are targeting. 60% to 40%.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sanket from DAM Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir, Congrats on a healthy set of numbers. Just one thing on credit cost. You told earlier that it would be 5 to 7 basis going ahead. Is that right? Was it annual guidance or a quarterly one?
See, going forward, it's not that it's a new normal, but as of now, that's the kind of, total credit cost that is being experienced. I guess that should be, you know, max about 10 basis what we can look at.
For the full year, right?
Yeah.
Okay. Okay. Cool, sir. Yeah, that was the only question from me.
Nilesh?
Yes. Is the question answered, Sanket?
No, yeah. That was the only question from me.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Palak Shah from Prabhudas Lilladher. Please go ahead. Palak Shah, your line is unmuted. Please unmute yourself and proceed with the question. It seems there's no response on the line. We will move to the next question that is from the line of Nishant Sachdeva from Kotak. Please go ahead.
Hi. thanks, you know, thanks for the opportunity. Of your total borrowings, I think around 54% odd are linked, are the bank loans. Are these loans linked to MCLR or are they linked to external benchmark rates?
It's a mix of all. Broadly, if I say 23% of my bank borrowing is linked to repo and like other rates like MCLR, CIBIL or some specially agreed rate with the banks. Broadly like half of it is linked to repo and others are like CIBIL and MCLR or special rates.
Sure. Got it. On the asset side, I believe your weighted average yield has kind of, you know, gone up almost 50-55 basis points over the last four quarters. You know, is that the rate hike that you have passed on to your customers or, have you kind of, you know, increased rates higher?
There has been a, you know, rate hike in three tranches which we did last year, which of which about INR 10,000 crore of the book, which is about one-third of the book has already experienced the entire three rate hike. Again, the remaining portfolio of about INR 18,000 crore is yet to experience either two or one rate hike, depending on the time when the reset clause happens. That is one part of it. And secondly, yield has also gone up because the incremental book, that is the entire incremental lending that has happened has also happened at a higher rate of interest. Today the incremental yield in the current, the last quarter is around 9.87%. That's the kind of.
These are the two reasons why the yield has been, has gone up.
Okay. In terms of resets, you know, your book is reset like once in six months or how does it work?
It's annual.
Okay. The book is, you mean the rate to your customers are reset once in a year?
Once a year. Yeah.
If you could put a number in terms of over the last four quarters, cumulatively how much have you raised for your customers?
How much have we raised?
How much... Yeah, for the existing customers.
We have raised 135 basis in three tranches of 50 and another last is 35. The larger asset for INR 12,000 crore, which has experienced a full 135 basis rate hike. There is a chunk which has experienced one of it already because it, they were booked after the or they have already come for a reset post the first tranche. There they are yet to happen for two tranches and another chunk which is yet to experience the third tranche.
And the third tranche was done in the third quarter you believe or fourth quarter?
The third tranche was done in the third quarter. You are right. In November.
Very much and all the best.
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Amit Ganatra from Invesco AMC. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, sir. I joined the call late, so I don't know whether this question was asked, but, you know, I heard you talking about 18% to 20% kind of loan, you know, loan growth. If your disbursement growth this year is only 8% and if sanction growth is only 5% for the full year, don't you think you need, at least, you know, 14% to 15% kind of a disbursement growth on a sustainable basis to achieve this 18% to 20% kind of loan growth?
Yeah. We did mention that, we will be looking around close to 20% growth in the disbursements to achieve or maintain this 18% to 20% loan book. Currently we have done close to INR 9,000 crore disbursement. With a 20% growth we'll be somewhere around INR 10,800 crore. Then, considering the repayment and, amortization and, prepayments and BT outs, the net growth would be around INR 6,000 to 7,000 crore, which would become a 20% growth on the loan book. So we will require about 18% to about 20% growth in the disbursements.
This 20% growth that you are talking about, will it be more consistent across quarters or it will be back-ended?
Normally the industry is talking about is works in the 45% to 55% or 40% to 60%, close to 45% in the first half and 55% business in the second half. That's how it normally operates.
Okay. Have you done any specific, you know, changes to the way you do business to achieve this kind of a growth? I mean, 20% is quite high as compared to what you achieved this year, right?
Yeah. Considering what has happened in the current year, yes. As I mentioned earlier, if the rates are stable and if, you know, if the rates start coming down even better, then there's the demand also which is there. Because there's a quite a bit of latent demand, but because of the supply, slight reduction in supply, post-closure of the CLSS and this rate hike, there is a kind of a postponement of decision by the customer. I guess that should kind of change once the rates stabilize.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Dharwal from DSP. Please go ahead. It seems the line is on hold. We'll move to the next question that is from the line of Ankush Agrawal from Surge Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thank you for the portion, Jatin. Can you highlight the incremental cost of funds for different sources of borrowing, like banks, NHB, CPs and, yes, NCDs?
It's like, cumulatively it has increased by 97 basis, but exact quantum like, by the nature of borrowing...
No, I'm not saying, by nature of borrowing the quantum, but the incremental cost of funds. Say bank is at like 6%, 7%, 8%, CP is at 5%. Like incremental cost of funds for different sources.
Yeah. The NHB book we can say that as of the moment, they are going somewhere in the range of... Because we also have a, you know, sizable chunk of funds coming from the, you know, the affordable, the lower, low-cost housing kind of a project, refinance scheme. That's somewhere around, about, 6% kind of a range. CPs of course will vary depending on the timing and everything that we look at it. NCDs, the last we borrowed was at a higher cost, but again, that will all depend on the rates in the market because these are all market driven. If the rates start coming down, even the, you know, most of the...
As we just responded about for 43% or, close to half of it is linked to repo, that should also start coming down.
Okay. In terms of a tier, so say the cheapest source would be NHB, I'm assuming, right? From that sense.
NHB, yes. NHB, yes.
Okay.
NHB is a very, you know, it is quite low cost for us too.
Yeah. After that it would be banks, on the higher end it would be NCDs, right?
Sorry.
After NHB, the cheapest cost of funds, second cheapest cost of fund would be say, a bank borrowing and the last highest cost of borrowing source would be, NCDs, right? In a normal scenario.
Yes. Keeping aside the CPs which are obviously short-term in nature, among the long-term funds, you are right. NHB followed by banks and then NCDs.
Right. Now with this rule of incremental borrowing for 25% should come from NCDs, so that would structurally increase the cost of funds for us, right? Because now we are at about 17% to 18% share from NCDs, which would eventually move to, say, 25%.
Correct. That's what we said that was the reason why in Q4 also our incremental cost was slightly on the higher side because we did raise at a higher rate the NCDs, which was a regulatory requirement. 25% of the long-term borrowing has to be from market sources.
This would be applicable across the industry for all housing finance companies, I'm assuming.
Large corporate, yes. This requirement is specific to the large corporate borrowers as per the SEBI. Those who have got listed securities or having a net capital of more than INR 100 crores, there is a, like, requirement of, like there's a eligibility or applicability which is quantified as a large corporate borrower.
Okay.
Which this regulation apply.
Okay. Got it. Got it. That was really it. Thank you.
Thank you. Take the next question from the line of Sneha Ganatra from Star Union. Please go ahead.
Hello, sir. Is there any talk going on with the rating agency?
as in the... They should now anytime come for a annual, you know, review. That's it. Otherwise nothing. I mean, any particular, you know, reason you're asking this question? I mean, in what-
Any scope for the rating upgrade? That is the only question I wanted to ask.
Yeah. Obviously we will be, you know, pushing them to, you know, look at the fresh financials. Any such thing will, they would obviously require the fresh financials. Otherwise they would not be able to look at it. Now that we have the, you know, annual results ready, we will be definitely talking to them. Anyway it is time, that they will also be approaching us for the review.
Okay. Got it. Got it. All the best, sir.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Next question is on the line of Ritika from Ocean Dial. Please go ahead.
Just on that, 25%, you know, incremental borrowing on the long term basis, which we have to do as per the SEBI regulation, where does it settle at as a percentage of the overall liability?
Right now if I say the total NCD stands at roughly 17% of the total borrowing as of now.
Yeah.
23. No, no, I think it will. See, whatever is the incremental borrowing, we have to raise, of incremental borrowing, 25% has to be raised through NCDs. Right now, whatever that old bank borrowing, they are slowly replaced by the NCD. It will finally settle at 25%.
The stock should also eventually should be 25. It's just the clarification I wanted.
Yeah, close to 25 because we have very small component of short-term borrowings.
Right. Sir, obviously there was this regulation that I'm sure you know, I think we have also been hearing the SEBI chairman being a little more stricter on this because I think this particular norm was not being met. What are the penalties there if one does not meet this and when is like, you know, that you necessarily have to meet this by now?
No. Generally, we have to raise in the same year. Further, it can be extended to next year at least. What we are doing, we are doing the same year here.
When, by when? Obviously this 25, it has to be reached only like, you know.
No.
when it reaches mathematically, it's not that it is in the next 2 to 3 years you necessarily have to be 25. I was trying to just understand that.
Whatever borrowing we raise now, there is slight change. Whatever borrowing we raise this year, long-term borrowing, incremental long-term borrowing, 25% has to be raised through NCD. It can be extended to next 2 years. That is one plus two.
Understood, sir. That's thank you. That is from my side.
This is only talking about the incremental borrowings. If you have the borrowings prior to the implement or the prior to this particular circular coming, those borrowings will not apply. Only when this come for a repricing or when we have to replace them with fresh borrowings, then on that component we'll have to maintain 25%.
Sir, could you please repeat that, please?
Prior to the circular coming in place, whatever were the borrowings which are still continuing, they will not obviously come for renew. For, you know, replacement.
This is only for the incremental, not the stock is what you're saying, yes, sir?
If our book is INR 30,000 crore, entire INR 30,000 doesn't come for a repricing or a part of it will come this year. On that 25% will have to be there. Over a period, the entire borrow book will come for repayment and replacement. At that time, this particular norm will have to be implemented. This could run over the next 3 to 5 or 7 years also because there are long-term borrowings from NHB refinance and everything which were already there, which are long-term in nature of up to 7 years.
Ritika, just to add, because we have been very conservative for the statutory compliances.
Although SEBI allowed it for a like within a block of three years to be managed, but as a conservative, like thing, we have been doing it year-on-year. We have not been able like, taking it to the next year also, although it is available to us.
Yeah. That's why I asked because if I mean, I don't know how to put it, but, you know, it's because, you know, it's a fixed rate and it, and the currently the rate cycle where we were, if we could have postponed it next year, I think that's the kind of question I wanted to understand. If choice B was it allowed to be pushed next year, assuming that, you know, maybe rates might have been a little better? I understand you're saying you're being conservative and you want to comply the very same year.
Next year is uncertain, madam. Why, what we feel that if it is supporting our what margin resources, then we raise. That's why we have raised it. Second, which is NCDs also, if you look at it, what we've been raising are for tenure of about 39 months. Because of that, in fact even if that happens, it will be over a period of the next 3 years and a quarter it will get come for fresh replacement. At that time, if the rates are coming down, they can always be replaced at that time. It's not a very long-term kind of a NCD that we are raising.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be our last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Suresh Iyer, MD and CEO for closing comments. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Yeah. Thank you everyone. It was a great pleasure interacting with all of you. You know, appreciate that you've all taken so much time to discuss the results with us. We are open to any discussion. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Investec Capital Services, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines.
Thank you.
Thank you.