It is an interim. Good day and welcome to the Rajratan Global Wires Limited Q4 FY24 post-result conference call hosted by Batlivala & Karani Securities India Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sailesh Raja from Batlivala & Karani Securities India Private Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah. Good evening, all. Thank you for joining us.
This is one of the.
Rajratan Global Wires Limited's most important Q4 2024 earnings conference call. During this call from the management side, we'll be hearing from Mr. Sunil Chordia, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. Yashovardhan, Executive Director of the company; Mr. Pranay Jain , CFO Rajratan Thailand; and Mr. Hitesh Jain, CFO Rajratan India. I would now like to turn the call to the Chairman and Managing Director for the opening remarks about the Q&A. Sir, you may begin.
Good afternoon, friends and my dear shareholders. Happy to connect with you all today for the phone call after our board meeting where we have adopted the financial results for FY24. I'm happy to share that last year has been a mix of growth and pressure on the margin. We have grown in Thailand in a big way. Our volumes in Thailand are up 43%. We have little volume growth in India also, marginal 2% volume growth. Overall, on consolidated basis, the volume growth has been 16%. There is no revenue growth because the prices have come down. Globally, the steel prices have come down, and subsequently, the prices of our product also came down. There is no growth in revenue top line. The EBITDA margins are overall down by 21%, and the profit after tax is also down by 28%.
We have ended the year with close to 72 crores of net profit of the company. I'm also happy to share that our Chennai investment is complete. We have started machines. We have started some trial runs, and this quarter, we'll announce the commercial production also. I'm happy to take the questions from here.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the Q&A session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question should press star and one on the touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use hands-free while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Parth Bhavsar from Investec. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. I have two sets of questions.
Sorry to interrupt, sir. I request you to use your hands-free, please, for optimum audio quality. Thank you.
Hello. Yeah. Is this better now?
Yes, sir.
Better, better. Yeah. Sir, I have two sets of questions. One is on India business. We reported flattish volumes in Q4. So what happened exactly? On the other hand, EBITDA margins or profitability has improved. So what drove this?
There was import of cheap Chinese quality coming into India, which was against the quality control order by government. I think government has taken effective steps to curb those imports, and they are optimistic about such cheap import not coming to India in the next financial year. It is partly the effect of that. Last month of the quarter, the imports were reduced drastically.
Sir, for the quarter, how much was the import? Could you quantify?
It had gone as high as 3,500 to 4,000 tons in a month, which has come down to 1,500 tons in a month.
Okay. So in March, 1,500 tons. Okay.
Close to that. Yeah.
Okay. And sir, what led to this improvement if I look at the profitability of Indian operation? It has reported good numbers even on quarter-on-quarter basis as well. So was it only the steel prices coming down, or was it something on the operational side as well?
On the operational side, we are continuously focusing on improving the cost, quality, quality of customers, everything. So it is a combined effect of all of that.
Okay. And sir, in terms of our Thailand operation, we reported a very good set of volume. Volume growth was very nice. But in terms of profitability, what impact did the profitability during the quarter? It is given on quarter-on-quarter basis.
So in our earlier communications, we had indicated that Thailand business is exposed to global competition, and there are a number of Chinese tire companies who are also our customers where the profitability is very low. But we decided to use our machines, our capacity. Our board decided to give us a direction that you should run the plant to full capacity. If there is a small contribution also, you should not leave that customer. So we worked on that strategy, and that is how you see huge volume growth in Thailand this year of 43%. Over years, we will shift from those low-cost customers or low-priced customers to better customers by exporting more to better MNCs and supplies to few major tire companies which are not Chinese in Thailand. That will happen in the coming year.
But as it is, we didn't want to lose the market share, and leave the space for competition.
Right. Sir, what was our market share in Q4? Did it improve from Q3 to Q4, or was it at 35%?
It is 35.37% only.
Okay.
The Q4 is 37%.
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Sir, those are my questions.
Thank you, Parth.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Nitin Gandhi from Inoquest Advisors Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for taking my question. Sir, with regards to Chennai, what's our cumulative investment, and what kind of a return we can expect going forward? Do you think there will be margin pressure, or will there be some new different way of handling the new plant? Similarly for Thailand, what's the cumulative investment if you can share? Please go ahead. Thank you.
Up till now, we have invested around INR 220 crores in Chennai. Some balancing equipments are yet to come for a capacity of 60,000 tons. So the plan is to invest INR 300 crores in Chennai for a capacity of 60,000 tons. At current price level, the capex turnover will be twice. The maximum turnover from this 60,000 capacity can be projected at INR 600 crores. For the first year, because we won't have approval from the major tire companies, we will have to sell it to low-cost customers where approval doesn't take much time. So there will be a... I don't expect a big margin from Chennai investment, particularly in the first year.
Regarding Thailand, what's the cumulative investment expense this year?
Pranay, can you answer this?
Hello? Yes, can you just?
Hello.
Yes, sir.
What is the cumulative investment in Thailand? What is the total capex in Thailand up till now?
Yes, sir. Sir, we have invested.
Gross block.
$410 million in Thailand last year.
410 million baht, right?
Yes, sir. ฿410 million.
That is the gross block there, Pranay?
Yes, sir. The gross block, which is added to the existing footprint, sir. What we have invested for expanding our capacity from 36,000 to 60,000.
What is the total now?
Sir, the total gross block has reached $1.1 billion.
1.1 billion. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, a reminder to all participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Prathamesh Dhiwar from Tiger Assets. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Sir, I just wanted to know on the realization point. As you told, Chinese inputs have been down right now, going down. So from Q1, are we looking at better realizations?
There will be some improvement because we won't be competing with Chinese prices. But overall, we are not expecting or we are not predicting a huge change in the prices, because our competitors have also increased the capacity, and we will have to. There is an advantage of Chennai that our cost to deliver to customers is very low. We will be very close to customers. So considering all those benefits, I don't expect much pressure on the margin from Chennai.
Okay. And sir, on the overall margins, how are we guiding for the coming year?
Very difficult to... you can see that we have been able to maintain 17.5% of EBITDA in India, okay? But yes, the EBITDA percentage in Thailand was very low. We expect this year there will be an improvement in EBITDA percentage in Thailand also because some of the customers where we got the approval have much better pricing.
Okay.
Volume will shift to those customers.
Okay. And sir, just on the capacity utilization side, what's our current capacity utilization, and what will be in the coming FY25?
So in India, the Pithampur capacity is 72,000 tons, and we have done 60,000 tons in FY24. We plan to continue using similar capacity in Pithampur because we have to make close to 15,000 tons in Chennai this year's business plan. Chennai will be adding 15,000 tons volume to the business. In Thailand, our capacity utilization is close to 75-80%, and with that capacity utilization, we plan to do more than 50,000 tons of business in the coming year.
Okay, sir. Thank you. That's it from my side, and all the best.
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Sridhar Kallani from Axis Securities Limited. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity. I would just like to have a clarification on the capacity that you mentioned in Thailand. So it is close to a 40% increase we have been able to reach 80% utilization in Thailand. Is that right?
Yes.
Yeah.
But that is on a quarterly basis. If you look at last quarter, the capacity utilization was close to 85%.
Okay. And for the whole year, it should be around?
For the last year, it was 75%. For the coming year, it will be 85%.
85%. Okay. And sir, is it possible for you to share a bit of a turn in Thailand and in India? Because if the commodity prices change, then a bit of a percentage is a little difficult to understand for us how much on a quarter-on-quarter basis we are earning.
It is difficult to talk about EBITDA % because there are customers where price differences are huge. And same in Thailand. Some of the Chinese customers where EBITDA % is very low, but there are multinational companies where EBITDA % is high.
Okay. So on an aggregate basis, what would be your EBITDA % in Thailand and in India if that is possible?
Yeah. You can assume 9% EBITDA percentage in Thailand, okay, which is on sales, and volume is there. Pranay, can you calculate and give?
Which percentage? What's the EBITDA per ton?
Yes, sir. It should be around.
Pranay will give. Pranay will give.
EBITDA per ton? Hello? Yes, sir. EBITDA per ton will be around ฿3,100 per ton for quarter four.
For quarter four? And in India?
Yeah. One minute.
5 baht. Sir, it is in 5 baht. $3,100, 5 baht.
Okay.
It will take a minute to give you the number.
Sure, sir. And on the side, there is a small subsidy that we have received of about INR 3 crore from state.
INR 3.27 crores. That was a capex we had done three years back to expand our capacity in Pittambur plant where we were sanctioned a total subsidy of INR 22.8 crores, which is to be paid to us in eight years' time. So out of eight years, we have received the third installment on 31st March.
Okay. Okay.
For the next five years, we'll get a similar amount.
Okay. And what is, sir, generally the inventory turnover that we have over here? I just want to know, inventory days, how much do we maintain?
You can see that working capital cycle is close to 55 days in India.
Okay. Okay. All right. All right. That's it from my side.
I think you brought it down.
The question on EBITDA per ton in India.
Yeah. One minute. Yeah. It's close to ₹15,000 per ton.
₹15,000. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor & Co. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Namaskar, sir. Thank you for this opportunity. Sir, quickly, as you mentioned that the turnover has remained flat, but I missed your point about the volume growth. So the utilization levels for FY23 and 24 on a combined basis, if you could give the comparative number.
So as I said in the previous question, Thailand has gradually reached the utilization level of 85%. The average utilization has been 75% throughout the year. Similarly, India, Pittambur plant is running at 85%, 84, 85%. We expect the same utilization level for Pittambur. We are starting a new factory in Chennai, so that will start utilizing the capacity installed there.
Okay. And you were mentioning that it will take time to get approval from the OEMs. So what kind of ramp-up are we expecting for this year in terms of the Chennai unit?
Yeah. This year, we are expecting 15,000 tons of volume from Chennai.
Okay. It is 25%. $50,000 is the main place.
Yeah. 25%. Right. You are right.
Sir, can you give us an outline of the current business environment? You spoke about the innovative imports from China. So if you could just explain to us how the business dynamics are shaped up and what are you visualizing in terms of the business in particular and also the key factors that led to this decline in the EBITDA. I think revenue-wise, we were flat, but EBITDA was down by around 20%. So if you could just give that.
So as told in the earlier answer, EBITDA was down in Thailand, not as expected by us because of very competitive sectors. China is not able to consume because their economy internally is not doing well. So they have exported a lot of material into the market, including Thailand, including India. But in India, there is a quality control order. So it happens for two months, and now it is reversing. That is about India. In Thailand, there is no such restriction or no such measure possible. So we have to compete with Chinese prices, and we have decided to do that to remain with a higher market share in the market. We didn't want to leave the space for a competitor. In our products, if the volumes go down, our cost of production also goes up. So it is a loss for a longer time.
Now for the future, our efforts are to, as I might have told in earlier discussion with shareholders, that we have started a company in USA for marketing. We have started a representative office in Europe. We have got good results from two, three companies where regular business is happening. More approvals and more business is likely in the coming years. So with three facilities, two in India, one in Thailand, we want to become a global supplier to tire companies. It's a process which takes time, but it is happening. Unfortunately, in bead wire business, overnight improvements are not possible. So you will see your company gradually improving on all these parameters.
Sir, on the volume front, you have guided us that we will be experiencing increased volumes, especially from the new unit also and also from the Thailand unit where the average utilization will go up by 10%. For the new unit at Chennai, sir, do we have any tax benefit or any PLI part that unit has come? Will it be an export-denominated unit particularly, or what's the thought process of setting up the Chennai unit?
So Chennai, we have the PLI benefit of 8% of sales, one-time benefit. The thought behind Chennai is that it is located very close to customers. Rajratan will be the only company very close to all the tire companies. Around our facility, within overnight distance, there are at least 10 tire companies, most of whom we are supplying from our Pittambur facility. As and when we get approval from those companies, we will start supplying to them. There is a saving of around ₹3,000 in the freight cost for supplying to them. This facility, the new facility in Chennai, is closer to our raw material supplier, JSW . There is a close to ₹1,000 saving on the inverted freight on the raw material. These are the reasons for us to be very optimistic and confident about our Chennai investment.
Of course.
Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. You complete, sir. I'm sorry.
Yeah. That is the thought process. Our plan is to reach 60,000 tons in four years' time, okay? Current year, like FY25, we are projecting us to reach 15,000 tons from Chennai facility. Yeah.
And this 8% PLI benefit is for how many years and any optimum level of production we have to reach when the benefit will start accruing, or from day one of sales, we will be getting the benefit?
No, no. In the first year, we will be on 15,000 tons. That is the projected sales we have given to the Steel Ministry. We are reaching 60,000 tons in four years' time. Say we do 14,000 tons this year, and then we do 30,000 tons next year. This year, we'll get on 14,000 tons. Next year, we'll get on 16,000 tons. Subsequently, like this, on to 60,000 tons. As I told, it's one-time benefit of 8% on the sales value.
Two small points. Firstly, the gate number for this plant, what is our down limit for the thing, and what is the current as on March 31st? I missed your balance sheet numbers. What is our debt number, the long-term and the working capital, and the cost of?
Both put together is below INR 200 crores. So it is INR 190 crores of total debt on the balance sheet on a consolidated basis, which has debt for working capital in Thailand, some loan in Thailand, and similarly, working capital in India and some loan in India. You want breakup of India and Thailand?
Yes, sir. Please.
Yeah. So on a standalone in India, the debt is INR 135 crores and INR 55 crores of debt in Thailand.
Okay. And what is the cost of funds, sir?
Average is, I'll say, 8%. Including Thailand, it will come down. It will be 7.5%. But Pranay, can you throw light what is the cost of funds in Thailand, average?
Yes, sir. Just a minute. Yes, sir. One minute. One more point on the forex impact part, sir, since it will be in the currency for Thailand. What would be the impact of the forex translation, if any?
I think I left this here. Forex.
Sir, cost of debt is around 5.8% in Thailand. And what about the forex question, sir?
In terms of translation to rupee, do we have any forex losses or forex gains embedded in the numbers?
We have forex gain in the main balance sheet in the parent company. I think it is there in the balance sheet. One minute. 55 minutes? I'm seeing on the board here. Foreign currency gain. One minute.
And lastly, sir, I had a point on this. The cost of bead wire component in total tire cost and also taking into account that we are the, I think, the only player in Thailand, who are the nearest, the next competitor size? I want to understand the economy of scale in the bead wire segment where we are competing. How many players are there? And also in China, what is the minimum size? सबसे छोटा प्लेयर की क्या कैपेसिटी है, सर, अगर आप बता सकें?
नहीं, देखिए, China is huge, okay? We don't get very clear information about Chinese players. If you look at their website, they mention half a million ton of capacity like this. But to my understanding, apart from Chinese, Rajratan will become globally number two after Chennai, okay? Will be with 180,000 tons per annum capacity. The number one player, other than China, is a company in Korea who has four locations other than China. They also have one company in China making this. So in China, there are two, three very big ones also who are half a million tons, 3 lakh tons, 2.5 lakh tons kind of. But we don't have the exact numbers. Other than China, Kisw ire is one big company. The European company also has two locations. Sorry, two in Europe, one in America. Rajratan will have two in India, one in Thailand.
I'll consider this as a competition. Okay?
Right. Right. And the cost of wire grid in the total cost of tire?
Sorry?
The components we make are wire grids. What does it constitute to the total cost of tire?
3% to 4% of the total cost of tire.
Okay. Right. Sir, I'll join the chat for my follow-up.
Depending on the size of the tires. Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aashav Rakesh Patel from Molecule Ventures PMS. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity, sir. The question is that, as we mentioned, we are also expecting the numbers to soon start contributing from the Chennai plant. I just wanted to understand, what is the industry norm? Do we need to get the approval on the new plant in the same capacity from our existing clients also, pre-approvals of all the production?
Yeah, yeah. We have to get the plant approval. We have to get the product approval. Yeah. The advantage with us will be that customers are also keen to source from a nearby location. So they will cooperate and hopefully do faster approval. Yeah.
If customers are so keen and if they are in the same vicinity of their own production, why do we envisage the actual benefit to happen over a period of four years? Earlier, we were planning it to happen over the next two to three years, right?
Yeah. These numbers are based on the projection of the tire companies also, okay? They are expected to grow. And our competitors have also grown, okay? So it will go with the growth of the market. We cannot suddenly and this product, nobody will buy it. It doesn't go for any other application. जितना टायर बनेगा, उतना बीड वायर बिकेगा। मैं चाहूँ कि बहुत ज्यादा बिक जाए, तो कैसे होगा?
ओके। सो सप्लाई साइड पर, सर, अगर हमको बेचना हो इवन फास्टर, तो दैट इज़ वेरी मच पॉसिबल। बट हमारा गाइडेंस है कंसीडरिंग इनटू कितना रैंप अप होगा एंड क्लाइंट का डिमांड कितना ओवर पीरियड ऑफ़ टाइम आएगा।
करेक्ट। उसमें हम कितना बेचेंगे, कंपीटीटर कितना बेचेगा, वो दैट डिटेल वर्क वी हैव डन। एंड दैट इज़ हाउ वी आर प्रोजेक्टिंग इट।
बट प्रोडक्शन रैंप अप, इफ प्रोवाइडेड द डिमांड इज़ वेरी रोबस्ट, देन प्रोडक्शन रैंप अप शुड नॉट टेक सो मच टाइम, राइट? नेक्स्ट, विदिन वन टू टू इयर्स, देन प्रोवाइडेड अगर डिमांड।
जनरली, प्रोडक्शन रैंप अप डज़न्ट टेक टाइम।
Got it, sir. And, sir, what would you can you please share the output of the tire manufacturers, Indian tire manufacturers? Because we have been seeing couple of quarters of export, flag cluster exports from their side. But now, it seems that they are increasing the utilization level as well at this point in time.
हाँ, वी हैड मीटिंग्स विथ ऑल द टायर कंपनीज़ इन लास्ट 15 डेज़। बिकॉज़ वंस इन अ ईयर, I personally visit all the companies and talk to them for outlook for next year, business plan, request them for bigger wallet share from their business, all that. So it is a mixed information. Companies like अपोलो, their business plans are to grow 7-8%. But they say, realistically, we don't see that number happening, okay? जेके सेड, "We are optimistic. This year will grow. We will also invest INR 1,400 crores in the capacity." I met BKT, who said, "This year will be better than last year." Okay? Exports have started, and they are positive of at least 8-9% growth this year. MRF doesn't talk much, okay? CEAT is optimistic. They are starting their TVR plant in Chennai and expanding capacity also. So I'll say it is a mixed information.
Got it, sir. And, sir, by when do you?
Sorry to interrupt, sir. May I request you to rephrase the question?
Sure. I'll come back. Thank you.
Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to one or two per participant. Should you have a follow-up question, we would request you to rejoin the queue. Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Gunit Singh from Counter Cyclical PMS. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. My question is regarding the main raw materials that we use. I believe steel and copper are one of the main raw materials. But what percentage of, I mean, total raw material cost do they individually constitute?
Yeah. Our main raw material is only one: steel, high-carbon steel wire rod. Copper is not the raw material. It is copper sulfate we use to coat the steel, so the volume and quantity is very small, okay? The main raw material is around 62% of our total cost, total sale. Yeah.
Steel is 62% of total cost. And what about copper sulfate?
Very small, INR 300 per ton.
All right. And, sir, can you help me with the volumes in Q4 FY24 versus Q4 FY23?
Yeah. You can see our presentation, which is uploaded on the website and on the stock exchanges also. We have given all those information in a presentation.
All right. Sir, and with regards to the projections that you're giving of 15,000 tons from the Chennai plant, you mentioned that the competitors are also increasing their capacities. So I mean, who are the main competitors and what kind of capacities are they coming up with? And given that this is happening, I mean, why do we or who gives us the confidence to still project 15,000 tons of output from the Chennai plant?
So our main competitor is Tata Steel. They have increased the capacity last year, and they will also try to push bigger quantity. What gives us confidence that we are in this business for 25 years? If you look at our track record, year on year, we have grown. In spite of having 7-8 competitors, Rajratan has grown. I think if we are focused, we continue to make good quality, give at a competitive price to our customers, we have the customers who will buy from us.
All right, sir, and what kind of EBITDA can we expect from the Chennai plant FY25?
First year, I would not like to give any number on EBITDA from Chennai because it's a new plant. It will take some time to stabilize.
All right. And, sir, by which quarter can we expect?
May I request you to rephrase the question quickly?
Yes. Just a follow-up to the same with my last question. I mean, by when can we expect sizable revenues to come from Chennai, from which quarter?
This year, we will do around 15,000 tons volume, which is, you can say, INR 130-135 crore of top line from Chennai.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in the interest of time and fairness to all participants, may we request you to restrict your questions to one or two per person? Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Saumil from Kotak Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity, sir. One question from my end. What would be the landed cost of imports for our trade of materials, which you said, for the quarter which went by, and especially for the month of March, where you saw a sizable reduction in the import as you alluded?
Chinese import was coming at a very low price, $800 to $850. Otherwise, from Malaysia or Vietnam, the imports are coming at $980 to $1,000 a ton.
Okay. And for Chennai plant, since we have roughly, on a normalized basis, roughly about INR 3.5 to 3,000 of cost savings, which you told, would we be significantly competitive and able to arrest imports, or do you believe there is a close situation?
Very difficult to predict what China will do. We will have to look at government support to fight with China because they supply without margin. They supply at a loss also. That is not a competition we can talk about. Otherwise, we are competitive with any other country, any other plant in the world other than China.
Okay. Perfect. Perfect. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Varun Sharma, who is an investor. Please go ahead.
Hello. Very good afternoon, sir.
Yes, sir. May I request you to use your handset, please?
Yes, sir. Very good afternoon, sir.
Yeah. Varun.
Sir, my question is, in 2020, we did not buy a rock.
Sorry to interrupt, sir. I'm Mr. Sharma. Your audio is not clear. May I request you to use your handset for optimum audio quality?
Yes, sir. Sir, in 2020, we did not buy a rock. Yes, sir. Do you feel your decision was right, sir? Yes. It was the right decision because whoever took it is still struggling with quality. What I hear from market, they want to scrap the entire bead wire line and put up a new line. But in any way, we were not interested in that technology and that junk.
Sir, and in that complex Chennai plant, as we are saying in this quarter, that's where Indian operations in volume have not done good results. So from Chennai, where would the demand come?
Demand is from... Okay. No, no. We will sell it to some customers who are low-cost customers, and we were refraining from selling it to them. But because we'll have added capacity, added production, and approval from main customers, the bigger companies will take some time. We'll have to sell it to them. We also have some customers in the global market where approval process is not very long. We are targeting all those customers, at least for the first year.
Thank you. Mr. Sharma, may we request that you return to the question queue for follow-ups? Our next question is from the line of Ritesh Shah from Investec Capital. Please go ahead.
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. A couple of questions, sir. First, on quality control order. Hi, sir. You indicated 1,500 tons in the month of March, 1,500 tons, I think, in the month of March. But you also indicated that this is something which can actually give us benefit for one year. Why only one year? Why not three years, five years? That is one. Sir, what led to this drop in input volumes? Is it cancellation of licenses? Just trying to understand the timeline contact with respect to.
We don't have the detailed information. We are only tracking the volumes, and volumes have come down. Some counters where we are the exclusive suppliers, and only one competitor from Malaysia is supplying to them. That counter, we are now supplying 100%, which tells us that there is a problem in import. When we talk to a few customers or try to dig more information, then there are problems in whatever is not allowed under the quality control order. Similarly, our own company in Thailand was exporting quantities to India. Now, BIS has canceled the license on a very flimsy ground. When we are asking them to give us a license applying for that, visit our factory, do the inspection, it is taking a very long time. There is a resistance from the government as a policy.
I cannot say more than this on the call. Yeah.
Sure. This is helpful. Sir, just a second to let you question. I think Tata Steel has a capacity of 60 KT. How much would the utilizations be right now? Any broad ballpark number?
Our information is that they are doing only up to 3,500 to 3,700 tons a month, which is what? Which is around 70%, 75% capacity utilization.
Perfect. Sir, just last question on Thailand. Earlier, you had indicated 30% of the volumes basically we export out of Thailand. We have spoken about incremental approvals in the US and Europe, and we have set up offices. Can you provide some color where this number 30% is, how it can move going forward? Any updates on the approvals? That's one bit. The second bit is, there's one Chinese company, Xingda Steel Cord. I think they have announced a set of possibility in Thailand. The headline number is 260,000. Would we have some color on the bedwire capacity over here, and how is it likely to impact the local demand supply, which is obviously adversely got impacted by imports? This will be from Thailand. Thank you so much.
Yeah. I think Yashwardan should answer this. He's looking after exports. He's heading that. Yeah.
About Ringda, they have a capacity in Thailand, but as for Steelcord, nothing for bead wire. If you have relevant information to share, I would request you to do that. We have not heard any investment in bead wire manufacturing in Thailand. I believe your next question was regarding export manage from Thailand, if I'm not mistaken.
Yeah. Export approvals and.
Yes, sir. So new approvals are happening in Europe. In the last quarter, we sold our average volume of 400 to 500 tons a month to the European market. It took about two, two and a half quarters to get approval from that customer, but eventually, we could sell in the last quarter. There is also development happening with multinational companies in Europe and America. We are in discussion with Michelin. Also, Bridgestone has registered us as a vendor for the European factories. I believe next year, we are going to work towards getting approval from these plants, and some volumes will go in terms of trial lots. I only expect the factory volumes will start going to them after a year from now. That's the effort we are taking on the export market.
There are few customers in the US where we are expecting regular business in this year also.
Thank you. May we request you to rejoin the queue, Mr. Shah? Thank you. Our next question is from the line of Lakshmi Narayanan from Tunga Investments. Please go ahead.
Thank you. First, I just want to understand what are your key strategic priorities for the next three to five years. The second question is, if I look at Hyos ung, I think they are your competitor, and they may also have some operations in Vietnam. Just want to understand how Vietnam ramping up capacity by some of the other players will positively or negatively affect you. These are the two questions.
Yosung is a competitor, definitely. They are a huge company. Their main business is making nylon belts for heat belt application. Bead wire and tire cord is also there in their product basket. Yosung has capacity for many years in Vietnam, but they have shifted from Korea to Vietnam because their cost in Korea went up, they have shifted. They invested in a new capacity in Vietnam, and they have shut down there. We see Yosung never sell it to very low-cost customers, very cheap customers. They are serious competition. When we go to Michelin and Kisswire and big companies, Michelin and Bridgestone and other companies, Yosung is also a big competition.
Got it. And then how is Vietnam emerging as a location of competition for you in general? Because there are a lot of agreements between a lot of companies from China relocating to Vietnam, is that what we hear?
I have not heard of any other bead wire investment coming in Vietnam. Yashwardan, are you aware?
No. Tire companies have definitely come up aggressively from China to Vietnam. Shio Sung has not announced anything because they already have an idle capacity, which is their confusion. But no further new investment that we are aware of in Vietnam.
They are making bead wire. Yeah.
Got it. And the second question is, what are your key priorities?
Our focus will remain on making our Chennai investment successful in next three to four years, where we want to be doing at least 50% export. It is a port-based location, and we want to become a strategic supplier to two, three companies, mainly MRF, Apollo who have major investment in tire capacity in that location. Also, focus, as I told in earlier discussion, that we are aggressively working on export in the USA and Europe where prices are good. If we get approval in regular business, that is a profitable business. Focus will be to gain more and more market share in profitable customers and keep growing at 15% to 20% volume every year.
And how much of your India production in terms of volume is exported?
India's exports are very low. We are doing major exports from our Thailand facility. But now, we want to grow in export from India because of our Chennai location, which is port-based.
Sir, just to add there, so why would the volume growth of India look like muted in spite of the domestic market in India has been, if I'm not wrong, growing at least?
I answered this. In two quarters, we had seen an influx of imports from China, which reduced our sales in India. We were not able to bring down the price to match with them, and customers think we did big quantities. Now that import has reduced, so we are optimistic about selling more in the coming year.
Thank you, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Ladies and gentlemen, you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Vaishnavi Deshmukh from Yashwi Securities Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Hi. What is the current market share in India?
Our market share with this increased capacity of Tata and imports coming in has come down from earlier level. We are at 38% of the total market share. And in auto companies, it is around 40%.
Okay. So I remember in the last phone call, we talked about how the capacity addition from Tata has impacted our overall sales. I think it was by 1,000-odd tons. So if that impact still continued in Q4?
No. It was Tata tried to sell more, okay, by reducing price. But in this business, reducing price doesn't give you more business. Our customers also asked us to reduce the price. Our volumes were intact, but it got impacted in one or two months, not beyond that.
Okay. Got it. The last question from my side, what kind of total volumes are we aiming for by 2025 in India operations from Pithampur?
Yeah. Pithampur will be flat because our focus will be to produce more in Chennai and supply from Chennai. So I'm not expecting any volume growth in Pithampur.
Okay. So one last question. The subsidiary that we set up for marketing in the U.S., so that subsidiary would be primarily working for the Chennai operations or the Thailand exports. So what would be the primary focus for there?
Yashovardhan?
Yes. Subsidiaries would be working for sales from all the factories. We have certain existing customers that we supply to in America and Europe from Thailand. Those volumes, we are targeting to grow. And definitely, new business from Chennai will also get developed through these marketing companies in those areas.
Okay. But the question was because we have some kind of 15,000 number in the Chennai operations. You haven't given any clear guidance for whether this would be additionally impacted. But I know that you are working for the increasing exports from Thailand operations.
Yes. But some of it, we will also try to export from Chennai, but very early to give a very definite number for next year from Chennai.
Okay. Sure. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Samir Kumar, who is an investor. Please go ahead.
Thank you, sir. My first question is about the growth there, which is one month ago, as you said. What will be our plan to reduce its prices? Is it two, three quarters, I mean?
Sorry. Can you repeat your question, please?
Mr. Samir, may I request that you use your handset, sir?
Now is it fine?
Yeah. Better.
Okay. So my first question was there. Potentially, we have INR 190 crores there in our balance. What will be the when we reduce its prices?
Our CapEx plans are almost done. Of course, we have to do remaining CapEx in Chennai. But the CapEx in Thailand is over. CapEx in Pithampur is over. We have to utilize those assets for better production and better volumes in the coming year. I will say that these numbers, you will see reducing because the cash flows will be used partly to pay the debt.
Okay. And the same question on the curve. In 2022, you were saying that we are the lowest-cost producer in the world. Are we still on the same price?
We do claim that we are the lowest-cost producer. And we will continue to say so because but not Chinese, mind you. Chinese capabilities are huge, and sometimes, they can be nasty. But definitely, our cost of production is lower than major companies like Kisswire and Dosung and Bekaert, including Tata Steel. But they have their own raw material, so they claim that their cost is low. But if they get raw material at the same price we get, then I think we are more competitive.
Okay. Thank you, sir. That's it from my side.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nidan Patira from Aurum Advisors. Please go ahead.
Hi. Good evening. I just have one small question regarding EBITDA per ton. So you guided this current number. Can you also repeat the number for India for EBITDA per ton?
I told you it's around ₹15,000 per ton.
Okay. And for Thailand, it is ฿3,105, correct?
Yeah.
Okay. All right. I just wanted to clarify that number. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. Thank you, Vedanta.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Radha from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Hello. Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity.
Yeah, Radha.
My first question was, other than the recent capacity expansion by Tata Steel, any other domestic or global players, have they announced further capacity expansion plans?
Globally, I'm not aware majorly. But India, yes, there is one company who has made big announcements, Bansal Wire. They are also coming out with a public issue. Yeah. So you guys will have more information about them than us. The same company had bought Aradhya Steel four years back.
How much are they expanding? I think currently, they have 600 tons per month.
But I would like you to ask all these questions to them because their numbers are mind-boggling. Difficult for us to even say. They are talking of huge, huge capacity for tire cord. They are talking of huge capacities for bead wire as well. So frankly speaking, no comments.
Secondly, we were expecting to supply higher quantities to Bridgestone for the Europe plant, which you mentioned that it will start from, I think, sixth quarter. Sumitomo also for the US plant. We had some approvals from Korean players in line. What is the question?
Yashovardhan, will you discuss the customer approvals in Europe and in Korea?
For Korea, which we had an aggressive plan, but unfortunately, we couldn't translate into much bigger volumes for all the locations. But all the Korean companies have approved our product. We were expecting a much bigger share to the Korean factories. But they have approved us in their locations in Indonesia and other regions of Southeast Asia. We have supplied volumes to these locations since last six months. Now is when they've started evaluating trial orders for the Korean factories. I'm expecting more volumes to go to Korea this year. I think this is a mistake we did in including in the last year's business plan. Regarding Europe, as I mentioned, we've been registered as a vendor by Bridgestone. We should expect a few hundred tons to get dispatched as trial quantities within this financial year.
After that, we will be able to discuss with them actual volume business from next year.
Thank you. Radha, maybe the question you return to the question queue for follow-up questions. The next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor and Company. Please go ahead.
Give one more question. You were mentioning about Bansal Wire and Industries, which are claiming a public issue, just to the other participants. Is our competitor going there?
Yeah. Yeah. They are already an existing player in wire business. They make many, many different types of wires. Okay? They also want to now make bead wire and tire cord and LRPC, everything on their. Their plan is to make 100 tons of wires per month. Okay? But it is not good to talk more about competition.
No issue. I think for the Tata Steel part in particular, sir, when has Tata Steel fallen into the segment? And in the realm of things, how important is this bead wire segment for them in terms of since we know that wherever players like Tata Company.
Tata Steel is making bead wire for the last 50 years. They have acquired a company, Special Steels Limited, which was making bead wire, and they continue to do this. It is 50 years the growth they have done. That is why I say growth in this business is very difficult. It may be insignificant, but they continue to do it.
Okay. And their capacity in comparison to ours domestically is almost.
They have increased the capacity. Their nameplate capacity is 60,000 tons now.
Okay. That is equivalent to our existing Pithampur unit.
Our Pithampur unit. Yes. But that is in two lines. They have added one more line. They make it in two plants. Yeah.
Okay. Sir, for the raw material basket, sir, how are things shaping up for raw material? And how do we store them? I mean, if we have contract, how does that work?
We buy it on a monthly basis. There is an annual understanding of how much we'll buy. Main raw material supplier is JSW. We also buy some quantity from Tata Steel and a little bit intermittently from Electros teel, Neco Steel, and sometimes JSPL. But 80% is from JSW, Vijayanagar. There, we have a long-term understanding.
Okay. And two bookkeeping questions on the deficit and forex. On the forex part, I could read from our submitted number that it transmitted to around INR 8.56 crores in loss for this year on a consolidated level. So if you could correct me on page number three of our submission to the exchanges, line item number 10I, other comprehensive income exchange difference and translation of foreign operations amounts to around INR 6 crores 66 lakhs loss for this quarter and for the year, INR 8 crores 56 lakhs.
Yes, sir. That is correct.
Yeah. This is right. Your understanding is correct.
Okay. But then earlier, when हमारी बात हुई, तो आपने कुछ और नंबर बताए थे, sir. I was just going to correct.
This is on the balance sheet side, right?
Okay.
That was on P&L side.
Okay.
ये balance sheet में तो जो भी हमारा investment है, that we have to do mark to market. Hello?
Right. Right.
हाँ।
अच्छा, last year का depreciation जो आएगा नए unit से, जो INR 200 crore का investment है हमारा, we will be capitalizing for in this June quarter.
Yeah. अभी Q1 में तो trials ही चल रही है। So as accounting policy, we will have to capitalize.
What will be the depreciation and losses?
हाँ, sir.
क्या रहेगा, sir, depreciation annual basis में increase हुआ है?
Depreciation करीब-करीब आप समझिए INR 10-11 करोड़ साल का बढ़ेगा।
और sir, जैसा आपने बताया कि INR 14-15 हज़ार।
हाँ, चेन्नई के लिए, right?
तो जो 14-15 हज़ार ton की हमारी utilization levels रहेगी, वो कवर करेगा।
पहले साल में?
हाँ, पहले साल में।
नहीं करेगा। पहले साल में तो I am not expecting big profit from Chennai. Okay?
First year is not going to be profitable there. We are not projecting that. Yeah. Okay. लेकिन break-even level क्या हमें देखनी चाहिए?
Yes.
I'll join the queue. Just follow-up ही था कि क्या level से हम break-even expect करते हैं। I'll join the queue.
Hello?
Yes, sir?
Yes.
We will move to the next question, sir. The next question is from the line of Aashav Rakesh Patel from Molecule Ventures PMS. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity for the follow-up question, sir. My question is, given the steep competition which we are facing regarding our domestic market, especially from China and Thailand as well, so given the industry is quite oligopolistic and very formal industry with only limited known players, are you on an industry level planning to reach out to DGTR to actually look into the dumping and initiate an anti-dumping duty regarding our product?
Very difficult to do that. Secondly, if we do it, customers don't like it. We have to because government will ask our customers also. Say we do it in Thailand. So we'll be sitting across the table with our customers. Then it antagonizes the relationship with customers. We have tried long back, 10 years back, and it was not a good experience.
Got it. So sir, then what exactly is the pain points for our industry, at least how we are placed in? For example, FY24, we faced a significant challenge at our margin cut. So what exactly do you attribute that to? Is it because of Thailand's capacities or Thailand imports or aggressive imports in domestic market or sluggishness in manufacturing of the tire players in the Indian market? What exactly is the pain point for us?
I'll not call it pain point. These are business issues we have to deal with. We have to find a solution. But overall, it is a good business. Okay?
Absolutely.
We have grown against all the odds in the last 25 years. If I look back to the competition we had a few years back or 10 years back or 15 years back, this is nothing. And we are at a much stronger position today. Of course, margins and business never remain continuously growing. There will be बहुत ऊपर जाता है तो थोड़ा नीचे आता है, business, margin, everything. But it is all within control. I don't see much challenges ahead.
Thank you. We move to the next question. The next question is from the line of Kaushik Dani from Abans. Please go ahead.
Good evening. Am I audible?
Yeah.
Yes, sir. Please go ahead.
Good evening, Sunil and Yashovardhan. Considering the challenging environment, I believe this decent set of numbers is really commendable.
Okay. Thanks.
Yeah. My first question is, as you said, that some portion of your Pithampur volumes will get shifted to Chennai plant. In spite of that, we believe that Pithampur should be able to do 60,000 of volumes. So if we consolidate, typically, we are expecting some sort of growth in the domestic volumes, right?
Yeah. Yeah. We are expecting 20% growth in domestic also. Okay? In Pithampur, we make some more products: black wire, wire for conductors, wire for springs. So we'll fulfill those capacities also.
That's right.
If bead wire sales go down from Pithampur, we have the option of selling bigger quantities of those products. Yeah.
Typically, out of the 72,000 capacity.
And doing 14,000 tons in Chennai is a compulsion for PLI commitment. Yeah.
Right. Right. And as we know that out of the 72,000, 60,000 is bead wire, and the 12,000 balances other products, right?
Yes. Yes.
Typically, what sort of number do we have for that balanced $12,000? What sort of sales do we do?
This year, we have done black wire. How much have we done?
15,000. 15,000.
This year, we have done 15,000 tons of that because bead wire sales didn't grow much.
Right. That translates into what sort of value, roughly?
What sort of value roughly?
Revenues, basically.
Yeah. It will be around INR 110 crores.
Okay. Okay. Great.
Or INR 100 crores, I'll say. We can give you all this detail later.
Sure. Sure. Yeah. Sure. No problem.
When I can give you. Yeah.
Fine. We can do that offline. Also, Chennai being a new plant, as you said, at EBITDA level, it won't be as profitable as Pithampur plant, right?
To begin with, in the first year.
In the first year. Just now, we are talking about EBITDA per ton of $15,000 from domestic. This would be excluding Chennai, right?
Sorry? Come again?
EBITDA per ton of $15,000 is what we spoke, right?
That was historical about last year, FY24.
Yes. Okay. It's excluding Chennai on a broader basis.
Chennai didn't give any revenue in business.
Exactly. Right. Going forward, let's say when we do 15,000 to 15,000 of volumes from Chennai, this 15,000 also will be tapered a little, right?
Difficult to project right now. So many factors are affecting. As I told you, this $15,000 is for the whole year. But if you look at last month, last quarter, EBITDA has increased. So I don't know how it will pan out for the whole year.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. That was the last question for today. As there are no further questions from the participants, I now hand the conference over to Mr. Sailesh Raja from Batlivala and Karani Securities India Private Limited for closing remarks.
Thank you all for attending this session. We especially thank Rajratan team for their time. Sunil, would you like to make any closing comments?
Thank you, all the shareholders, for your keen interest in Rajratan. Keep watching us. We are working hard to grow this business. We are confident that in coming years, your company will grow and reach bigger heights, newer heights. Wish me luck. I wish you all good luck. Thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you. On behalf of Batlivala and Karani Securities, this concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect.