Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the earnings conference call for JM Financial Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchtone phone. Kindly note that any forward-looking statements made on this call are based on the management's current expectations. However, the actual results may vary significantly, and therefore, the accuracy and completeness of this expectation cannot be guaranteed. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vishal Kampani. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. On behalf of JM Financial, we extend a very warm welcome to all of you to the earnings conference call to discuss our financial results for the first quarter ended June 2024. We have uploaded our results update presentation, press release on the website and stock exchanges. I hope you have had a chance to go through the same. On the call, we also have Mr. Chirag Negandhi, Managing Director, JM Financial Limited; Ms. Sonia Dasgupta, Managing Director and CEO, Investment Banking, JM Financial Limited; Mr. Manish Sheth, MD and CEO of JM Financial Home Loans; and Nishit Shah, our Group CFO. I will give a few introductory points, and then I'll hand over the call to Nishit to take you through the numbers.
I've already updated most of you in our May call on a few of the strategic sort of initiatives we have taken in the group. The first being on a pivot in our wholesale credit businesses, from moving from an on-balance sheet lending and an on-balance sheet loan book-driven business to more of an off-balance sheet syndication business across asset classes like real estate, distressed credit, corporate credit, as well as promoter credit. And on the focus businesses, we will continue to cover the entire breadth of wealth management, asset management, capital markets, corporate advisory, and our investments in these businesses will continue to increase over a period of time.
We're seeing a tremendous traction in these businesses, and we're also very pleased with the amount of integration that is happening across these different business units and the opportunities these units are throwing up. There is also very strong tailwinds in affordable home loans business, and again, we will continue investing in both physical infrastructure and technology to grow that business larger. I'm also happy to report that the assets under management of our wealth management and distribution business has crossed a very important milestone for us in the group of INR 1 lakh crore. And I'm also extremely pleased to say that our AUM for our mutual fund business has achieved another very important milestone of INR 10,000 crore, of which almost INR 7,500 crore is equity.
We've also made a very important strategic announcement a month ago on what we are doing with our stake in JM Financial Credit Solutions. As most of you know, JM Financial Credit Solutions is a business we had set up in 2014 along with a couple of investors led by Mr. Vikram Pandit. This is an entity which is completely focused on our wholesale lending business across real estate, corporate, financials. And this entity, the investors had a fund life of 10 years, which was basically ending in November 2024, and you know, we have been in discussions with them for the last couple of months.
And finally, we concluded a transaction where we will be, JM Financial Limited will be increasing its stake, to, up to 95.65%, in this company by purchasing, 49%, up to 49% of the investors' stake, for an amount of, INR 1,460 crores. The stake will be purchased in tranches. Currently, the investors have only agreed, to sell 43%, and for that, our commitment will be, INR 1,280 crores. So the, the transaction, will of course, need regulatory approvals. Our teams are working with the regulators, to get the approvals, and we are hopeful that we should be able to conclude, this purchase, before, November 2024.
We also have an option, you know, to have JM Financial Credit Solutions purchase our stake in JM Financial ARC. We will decide on that option again before November two thousand twenty-four. This would be a purchase of almost 71%, and thereby transferring all of our interest in the ARC under JM Financial Credit Solutions. So this is an important update on what we are doing, you know, with Credit Solutions, and we have surplus cash in the group to be able to easily conclude this transaction.
Post concluding this transaction, of course, our earnings consolidation from the profits of JM Financial Credit Solutions will increase from 46% to almost 96%. So with this brief update, I will now hand over to Nishit to take you through the numbers, and after that, we can address Q&A . If you see our results, update and presentation that we have put up for this quarter, we have highlighted on page four, five, six, and seven, some data and some quick thoughts on our strategy. I would urge all of you to look at those four pages. Important reason to put up these pages also is that we are looking at our business a bit differently from the way we modeled it for the last 10 years.
The new model will focus on four different verticals. The first being corporate advisory and capital markets, the second being wealth and asset management, the third, private credit syndication, and the fourth, the affordable home loans business. This simplifies our structure. It also adds a lot of focus on management in terms of deliverables over the next couple of years. The team here, consisting of Chirag, Sonia, and Manish, will be happy to answer more questions along with me once Nishit takes you all through the numbers. Thank you.
Thank you, Vishal. During the quarter ended June 2024, consolidated revenues increased by 1% and stood at INR 1,094 crore. Profit after tax, after non-controlling interest for the same period increased by 3% year-on-year from INR 166 crore to INR 171 crore. The consolidated network, excluding non-controlling interest, stood at INR 8,612 crore, which translates into a book value of INR 90 per share. Retail mortgage loan book stood at INR 3,267 crore, compared to INR 2,033 crore for the same period last year, an increase of 61% year-on-year.
The rest of the loan book has declined from INR 13,858 crore to INR 8,666 crore during the quarter ended June 30, 2024, a decline of 37% year-on-year. The SEBI margin financing loan book grew more than 2 times during this period and stood at INR 1,806 crore as of June 30, 2024. On a consolidated basis, our debt-to-equity stood at 1.4 times, and cash and cash equivalents stood at approximately INR 4,000 crore. With this, I would like to conclude, and we are happy to take any questions. Over to the moderator.
Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin the Q&A session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while you are asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Digant Haria from GreenEdge Wealth. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Vishal, one question to you. You know, I was just seeing that, you know, we have always operated with very good capital adequacy, you know, right from, say, 2014, when we started this NBFC business. And now once we shut this down, or, you know, once we run this down, we'll be sitting with, you know, even more capital. So just any thoughts? I heard your last call where, you know, we will be doing AIFs and private credit, but still, you know, the quantum of capital that is going to be released is going to be quite huge. And, you know, any thoughts on, you know, will we, you know, will we accelerate more on the investment banking, institutional equities, mutual fund, wealth, you know, those businesses?
That's my first question.
Sure. So, let me answer the question on capital, and then I'll hand it over to Chirag and Sonia to give a brief on investment banking, institutional and wealth and all those businesses. So yes, Digant, we will generate surplus capital, but as you know, we still have debt to repay. And from a lender perspective, it is very difficult to distribute all of the cash flow till the debt comes down. So our net debt comes down very, very quickly. If you see on page seven of the presentation that we have provided, it gives you a good perspective of how across our three entities where we will be paying down debt, what the movement of cash and cash equivalents is versus loan book is, and you can see a substantial amount of cash generation.
For example, in JM Financial Products, our current cash as of June thirtieth is INR 639 crore, which accretes in two years to INR 2,500 crore. JM Financial Credit Solutions, INR 1,800 crore accretes to INR 4,200 crore. Now, what happens is we still have gross debt. Even though we have net cash, we have gross debt outstanding. So I think, our payouts will increase over the next three to four years, but they will dramatically increase after two years, because at that point in time, we will not need this kind of surplus capital. And also, the people who hold debt in these NBFCs will be comfortable enough for us to release cash. Second, the purchase that we are making in credit solutions today is gonna cost us almost INR 1,400 crore.
This is a very thoughtful purchase. We see a lot of long-term value, you know, in terms of the expertise that we have built in this business, and we are very confident of our pivot in terms of creating land AIFs and building an absolutely global distribution for the India credit product. I don't think there are many players on the street who understand financing right from loan against shares, promoter financing, corporate financing, real estate, land financing, real estate structured financing, all the way to distressed credit. We have seen the good cycle of that play out when we started the business from 2007 all the way to 2019, and we've also seen the bad cycle play out between 2019 to 2024.
And I think we're gonna bring all of those expertise together under one roof, JM Financial Credit Solutions, and really build a very strong and solid business. Second point, Digant, is that our investment bank and wealth management will throw up a lot of cash as well. And as you know, those are very capital-light businesses. Today, we are investing in digital broking as well as asset management, but those investments will stop in two years as each of those businesses will turn cash flow positive, and the distribution from those businesses also will accrete dramatically. So it's about a two-year consolidation phase, and that's why we've explained that whole strategy in those four pages.
Another reason to give those pages is that you can now Q-on-Q track how the old business and the old structure is reporting this year versus how the new structure is reporting, and you will have those comparable numbers with you even next year. Another thing to keep in mind is that RBI does not allow more than 50% dividend distribution of PAT from its NBFCs. Once we bring leverage down, we will appeal to RBI to at least release that for us, in terms of, you know, allowing us to pay more dividend. If that is allowed, then of course, the payout ratio will go up much more and much higher. So these are some of the thoughts. Happy to answer more questions offline. Nishit has all the numbers.
But Chirag, Sonia, if you guys wanna add anything on investment banking, institutional equities, wealth management, free to do so, unless, Digant, you have any more questions.
No. One last question, Vishal, I had. You know, I saw the slide number, you know, five, six, seven. You know, a good, you know, good summary of how the next two years rundown will happen. You know, are all our, you know, customers, you know, everybody's aligned to the fact that this rundown will happen and you don't expect any knee jerks in this rundown?
No, no. So we have, we have very carefully done due diligence on the entire book of JM Financial Credit Solutions. In fact, literally, we have gone account by account before we decided to make the purchase from Mr. Pandit. So, fingers crossed, I mean, barring any very bad macro event like COVID or what we saw in IL&FS, I think the book is quite solid. And JM Financial Products actually is a very liquid book. Its assets are very liquid. Loan against share is anyway run down. And we have a lot of MSME and HFC assets which are very liquid and can be sold at any point in time. And the promoter finance loan book anyway runs down in less than 12-18 months. So those are very liquid assets.
In the ARC, we've taken very heavy provisions. I don't think the incremental provisions are large. The incremental provisions are all with A-tier accounts. And we are seeing a lot of liquidity. In fact, we've had INR 500-600 crore of cash generation in terms of what we've resolved just in last quarter. We expect that momentum over the next four to six quarters. So, these numbers, I would say you can easily take them, and if you were to discount them, you can discount them by 10%, but not more than that.
All right. That's great, Vishal. Thank you, and all the best for the, you know, work, the second innings of JM. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Niteen Dharmawat from Aurum Capital. Please go ahead. Mr. Nitin? We can't hear you, Mr. Niteen.
Hello?
Sir, the line from Mr. Niteen seems to be disconnected.
Okay.
A reminder to the participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Himanshu Upadhyay from BugleRock. Please go ahead.
Yeah, hi. Good afternoon. My question-
Hi.
Was the disbursal in home finance are down by 30% YoY and 75% QOQ. Can you explain the reason for it, and why such a significant fall in disbursal? This is on the slide on the home finance business where we have given.
Yes, Manish will take that question.
Yes. So basically, you know, in the home finance business, April, May are the month, always a dull month, especially because we are operating in tier two, tier three cities, and as you know, in tier areas, there is a challenge in terms of water supply, and majority of our home loan business is either self-construction or plot plus construction.
So that gives us, you know, always if you see the first quarter is like this only. On top of it, we have done first time the, you know, assignment to one of the leading player. So INR 100 crore we have sold down during the quarter. So if you net that out, actually we have done more disbursement than the comparable quarter last year, but net of that, our disbursement overall looks, sorry, our AUM overall looks down.
Okay. So the disbursement would be INR 200 crore, you are saying, means which is INR 116 crore in Q1 FY25, it seems.
So disbursement is INR 116 crore. There was one important regulatory change, if you really have noticed, by NHB and RBI, that earlier what everybody used to do is a disbursement, which is, you know, we used to prepare a check and we were giving them the timeline of, you know, 30-60 days to encase the check. Until then, it was shown as disbursement. But with the regulatory change, the disbursement is to be booked only when the check is banked by the customer. So if that number I would add, if that number is around INR 50 crore more than what we have shown even in this quarter.
One more thing. In the wholesale business, have we done any deal on syndicating transactions? Because that is the way more ahead we are seeing. So are we disbursing currently loans and credit solutions or have we done it in last two quarters? Is there any approval or structuring needs to be done for the way we are thinking about syndications or approval from regulators or any place?
Yeah. So last question, we don't need any approvals from any regulators. This is a normal course of business. The answer to your first question is yes. On the corporate side, we have a very active syndication business, which we've been running for the last almost 3 years, and it has done very well. We are extending those expertise now to real estate, distressed credit, as well as promoter finance. And yes, we already have a full-fledged approval mechanism in place for syndication of loans, which is very, very similar to our credit approval process across all of these asset categories. So that is clear. And last, yes, we are not going to close down our lending business. We are going to lend.
We will have a hold in many of the syndication transactions that we do, but our concentration risk will go down dramatically, and we will keep the book very liquid. So to give you a very simple example, if you are able to originate, say, INR 8,000 crore of volume in a year, if our balance sheet could keep the entire INR 8,000 crore of volume, going forward, our balance sheet will not keep, say, more than INR 1,600 crore of volume, but we will effectively syndicate and sell down INR 6,400 crore of it. So that is the concept. You know, in syndication of business, very rarely can you do a syndication where you sell down 100% of your loans. You always have to have some balance sheet capacity to hold.
That is why there will be a portion of our liquidity which we will use to facilitate the growth of our syndication business, and that is a point we have highlighted if you see on page 4 of the presentation that we've put up, that some part of the liquidity will support the pivot to the syndication model.
In FIF also, this means we have started doing syndication transactions in financial institution funding?
Yeah, yeah. It will be across financial institutions. It will be across real estate. It will be across corporate. If I were to tell you, among the three, the largest volume we see will be in corporate, followed by real estate and followed by financial.
One follow-up on this. See, earlier what we were trying to do was INR 7,000-INR 8,000 crore of dispersal in a year, okay?
Yeah. Yeah.
Credit solutions business.
Yeah.
But we were finding a challenge that we were not finding so many good builders, okay? That, who-
No, no. We were finding good builders, but we were not finding good builders at our rates.
But so now the rates would be significantly lower, or what would be the rates in syndication you are able to do the deals around? Some-
No. So there are, there are two things in the business. So one is the rates for construction finance, and second is the rates for land and the rates for approval finance. So you have to understand that from a regulatory perspective, it is becoming challenging to do land finance and approval finance in a NBFC. So that business is pivoting very, very quickly to the capital markets. So you have, AIFs, you have foreign funds, and you have a lot of, HNI customers who are now taking a part of this business. So there it is going to be an AIF-led syndication model for land finance. But on the construction finance side, we will continue to support with our balance sheet, but we will syndicate down to banks and other larger NBFCs using the relationships that we have.
On the corporate side, it is all, promoter finance and structured finance. We do not do working capital finance, and we do not do project finance, and, we will not be entering those spaces. That is a domain of the banks, and it is better done by banks.
One follow-up. Historically, when we were just seeding these businesses or the credit solutions, the thought was that we were too dependent on capital markets and we want to diversify into lending business so that the business becomes more stable, okay?
Yes.
But if I look at it, we'll be more focused on the fee income type of business, what we are trying to create in these businesses. How dependent will be these businesses on strong capital markets? So let's say, the credit solutions, if the market goes bad, okay, for six months or a year, will the fee income still be there? And how big would be the costs on that side? And can the fee income overcome those costs, fixed costs, which will be there? Because NIMs will not be there or the quantum of,
No, I don't, I don't think that will be a challenge, because even if you just look at the. If you go to page seven, right? And if you just see the amount of cash we are gonna generate in credit solutions, that number itself is upwards of INR 4,000 crore in two years. Assuming for a second we deploy even half of that to help our syndication business at that point in time, that itself will generate a 12%-13% yield at the minimum, and just that INR 2,000 crore deployment will take care of all our costs. But, you know, it's - see, when you talk about capital markets, when 10 years ago, when we set up the business, it was largely equity capital markets. One is that the equity capital markets have become very, very different. I mean, the size is just humongous.
The kind of products we do in equity capital markets are very different. I mean, we're a large player, for example, now in block trading. It's something we never did 10 years ago. I'm just giving you an example. So one is that the depth of the equity capital market has increased, and we are seeing lesser cyclicality in that business from the macro position India is in today. Second, this is a private credit business, so it's actually a hedge to our equity capital market business. So tomorrow, equity capital market business slows down, this business will not slow down. People will allocate more capital towards, you know, debt and other, yielding products if there is a sustained slowdown in equity capital markets.
We don't expect a sustained slowdown in equity capital markets, but going by your worst case, if that were to happen, even if it were to happen, this business will be, will still be a hedge. It will be a hedge with a lot lower risk. Because when you have your sales and distribution relationships in place, you know, then it is just about being able to originate the transactions. The origination is already present in our investment banking and our wealth management business, which the team on the call with me is rapidly building.
Okay, thank you. I have a few more queries. I'll join back in the queue.
Yeah. So you can go ahead right now, don't worry. Finish your queries.
See, in the slide seven, we have shown how the loan book will reduce, okay? So is the underlying assumption that both JM Financial Products and Credit Solutions, no new disbursal will happen? So that, would that be the assumptions, when you are-
Yeah. That is a very good question. That's a very good question, and can give clarity to everyone. So this, these numbers are based on an assumption that we will not do any new disbursements, okay? This is very simply outstanding gross book, loan book, coming down as per schedule of repayment, gross debt coming down as per schedule of repayment, and therefore the accretion in cash generation. So this cash that you see of INR 6,500 crore being generated here, by June 2026, it is our decision on how much of that cash do we distribute, how much of that cash do we invest in treasury, and how much of that cash do we use to support the syndication business. As a thumb rule, I mean, it's very hard for me to give you an exact number.
You can just assume 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 would be the plan.
Okay. Thanks for the clarity. One last question. Yesterday we said in the AGM, okay, that we or the employees want to have ESOPs of the businesses, what they are doing, okay?
Correct.
Three companies are there, so home finance and, they don't want the ESOPs of, JM Financial Limited, okay?
Yeah.
But what do we think that in future you will be having three listed entities once there is scale-up? Or how will that turn around? Means, will. Because there, there is synergy in all these three businesses and cross-selling opportunity.
Yeah.
What is your thought? Means, some more clarity there.
Yeah. Yeah, so I think let's look at the breakup of those three entities. There is one entity which is JM Financial Services, which is our wealth management and broking entity. Then we have JM Financial Asset Management, which is our mutual fund and our credit AIF business. And third is JM Financial Home Loan, which is our affordable home loans business. Now, if you look at the team and the professionals who are working in these companies, they literally have got nothing to do with the other company, and they've got nothing to do with the investment banking and the institutional equities business. And to attract the right talent, we have decided and taken a decision that we will be giving employee stock options for the teams that are focused in these businesses, in these respective companies.
Today, for the next two to four years, we are only focused on growth, heads down, trying to scale these businesses. Once they reach a certain amount of scale, we will take a decision on what is the best way to unlock the value created for the employees and for the shareholders of JM Financial Limited. It is a bit premature to decide today how we will do that. The obvious routes to do that is to IPO the business or to demerge the business, from the parent company. But as I said, we do not want to comment on what route we will use and how we will do it. But what we will definitely say is that we will do one of these actions for these businesses after two years and maybe before five years from now, when sufficient scale and size is achieved.
Okay. Thanks, and I hope we continue the quarterly call, from here on. Thanks.
Once we start, we don't stop.
Okay. Thanks.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, a reminder to the participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is a follow-up from the line of Digant Haria from GreenEdge Wealth. Please go ahead.
Yes, yeah, I had one question on, you know, the, the talent crunch or, you know, so to say, in these entire capital market business. Like you just mentioned that, you know, these, you know, capital market over the last five years have grown so much in size. You know, do you, do we find it difficult, to really retain or, you know, get people, in the wealth management, you know, the AMC and, and those businesses? And, and I heard the previous participant that, you know, giving the ESOPs of the businesses where, you know, people are working, that could be one strategy to retain the talent for long term.
Yeah, Chirag will take that question.
Hi, Digant. Chirag Negandhi here. So it's a great question, and I think if you talk about the industry per se, there is obviously a challenge to get the right and most appropriate talent. But you have to appreciate that a platform and a company that has been around for 50 years, that is investing in growth of these businesses, that has the kind of reputation that JM enjoys, it is definitely easier. While it is easier relative to the industry for us to acquire the right talent, we are also aligning ourselves to make us, you know, at par with industry, so that we are giving the right options for our teams that we bring on to be able to create wealth for them as well.
Therein lies the whole idea of giving stock options in the businesses that they drive. We'd like for the employees to be aligned with us in terms of where we are building and creating value, and I think that benefits the shareholders as well.
Okay. Chirag, just one more question on this, that over the last three to four years, if you can just highlight how the, you know, how has our coverage, you know, the sector coverage, the client coverage increased because, you know, the markets have become deeper, newer, you know, so many new sectors like, you know, electronic manufacturing, Cap goods, so many new sectors have revived. So any, like, you know, any flavor here would be, you know-
Yeah, no, look, the coverage for us is multifold. We are very, we look at coverage both from an investment banking perspective, and there's also the wealth perspective. There's the institutional business will also look at covering them. So you have to also appreciate that there is, this is among the few financial institutions that have all of these businesses housed under one umbrella, that allows us to really focus on the cross-sell here. So it, the coverage doesn't get restricted to one aspect of the business, which allows us to work together pretty closely to be able to benefit from the coverage that each of the other divisions does.
Okay, okay. And fair to say that we would probably be under expansion mode in all these businesses in terms of talent hiring, the investment banking, institutional equities, and so on?
I, I think the way we look at this is the institutional equities and the investment banking, we continue to consolidate our leadership over there. And in the wealth and asset management, and the financial services businesses, that remains another high focus area for us, where we want to, you know, seriously ratchet up our leadership over there as well. So one place we're consolidating, we are the existing leaders, and we'll consolidate it further. The others will focus on and take leadership over there as well.
All right.
You know, it's a people business, so we clearly understand that, and if we have to invest in the people, we continue.
All right. All right, thank you. Thank you, Chirag. Thanks, Vishal.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Chintan Shah from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. So, sir, firstly, on this book rundown which we are talking about, so here are the rundown. Would you, can it be presumed that the rundown would largely be from the wholesale lending under the JM Financial Credit Solutions? So now, if by June 2026, we can presume that there will be no chunky outstanding wholesale loan accounts which would be outstanding. Can that be a fair assumption to make?
No. So if you look at page seven, it reduces quite dramatically, but there still will be roughly INR 3,000-INR 3,500 crore of outstanding, because specifically in the real estate project finance space, we do have maturities running all the way to 2027, 2028. And in the MSME business, we do have maturities which run, you know, for the next six to seven years. So around INR 3,000-INR 3,500 crore remains outstanding beyond June 2026. But if you look at page seven, the gross debt of the existing businesses over there, the net cash that we have is much higher than the gross debt. So technically, for us, almost INR 5,000-INR 6,000 crore is free cash flow for making investments to boost syndication or increase payout, or just run treasury.
Sure, sure. Understood, understood. And so, sir, but, this is no longer a focus area that we can, at least say the, wholesale lending business, right?
You clearly make the assumption very clearly that wholesale lending and adding assets on a book from a lending perspective, as in looking at book growth is no longer our focus. So for all practical purposes, you can say that we have exited the real estate lending business, and we have exited the distressed credit business. We do not want these risks sitting on our balance sheet. We are extremely clear. We will only originate these businesses to distribute to our market, our, our clients in the market, which we are building sales and distribution, and we'll build that over the next 6 to 12 months.
Yes, there will be a hold that we will need to have in those assets, but the hold is not going to be upwards of INR 2,000 -INR 2,500 crore in real estate and distressed credit. And on top of that, we will build AIF for land transactions, which is another core important area of focus for us. And through the land AIF, not only will we fund land, we will also co-syndicate to our LPs, you know, larger financing for land.
Okay, sure. So, sir, what about the 3.4% Net NPA which we have in the Financial Credit Solutions? So, any kind of resolutions expected there? And I think, there were two, three chunky projects which were kind of undergoing some resolution. So has there been any progress on that, or do we expect also that to gradually have some resolution by June 2026 there as well? Yeah.
Yeah. So that's an excellent question. In our, in our cash and cash equivalents, we have not included any cash flow, which is from the resolution of our NPA accounts. So over the next two years, if we have any resolution for my NPA accounts, that will increase the cash and cash equivalents in JM Financial Credit Solutions and JM Financial Products. So that has not been included. To give you guidance on that number, that, that number is around INR 500 -INR 600 crore on a gross NPA basis if we were to recover everything. If you assume that we even recover what is unprovided for, that number will be at least INR 250 -INR 300 crore in credit solutions.
Sure, that's very clear. So for now, on the AWS thing and on the investment phase, so now, as we believe, recently have been seeing in the past four to five quarters, we have made some senior management hires across the non-lending businesses. And so because of that, there has been a significant bump up in the cost to income. And so where do we see the cost to income for AWS kind of settling over FY 2025 or 2026? When do we see the-
Yeah. I'll have Chirag and Sonia answer that question. I'll only answer one part of it that-
Yeah.
Right now, while Cost to Income is a very important parameter for the AWS business, which in our new avatar, we are calling Wealth and Asset Management, we are still in heavy investment mode in Asset Management, PMS, as well as digital. You will only see a stabilized Cost to Income somewhere in the year 2026 and 2027, because right now we're still in investment mode, on recruitment, et cetera. Chirag and Sonia will take the questions.
Yeah, I think just to add to what Vishal said, we continue to be in investment mode there. What you're seeing is, of course, some of the costs being front-ended because of the people that we're taking on. As the revenues kick in from those hirings, you'll see that change as well. We will stabilize. Vishal, at the start of the call, mentioned how, you know, the digital broking group will stabilize as well. And once the digital piece settles as well, you'll see, you know, that bearing fruit in terms of the numbers showing up much better as well.
Hi, hi, Sonia here. I think, you know, like, was mentioned by the earlier question, in the Indian capital markets are deepening and widening, and, you know, we believe, given our inherent strength of having very strong relationships, very strong understanding, very strong capability to structure, we are keen to have, you know, the best team. And we will deepen and widen, both on origination and execution, our teams, because we see that there is a lot to be captured. And we'll continue to make sure that, you know, we focus on hiring the best and also retaining and training them.
You know, I think one more comment to add to what Chirag and Sonia are saying that today, I mean, the amount of business that is visible from corporate clients, ultra HNI clients, as well as private equity clients, is absolutely mind-blowing. And I think the if we were to add people and the right kind of people, I think their, their, their, their ability to generate revenue is no longer a stretched timeline. I think they can literally hit the road running. I mean, that is the kind of volume of business which is visible on the capital markets as well as the wealth management side. And I foresee the same thing happening on the private credit side.
I think private credit has been slow, for the last four to five years because you've seen an unbelievable bull run in equities. And like all of us know, right, that, you know, the equity story is not always a rising story. And, you know, you will see a significant shift, in the next four to five years, where equity will continue to outperform, but there will be a very strong asset class being built around private credit. And both our investment bank and our wealth management already have the origination side in place, so our focus is really to build more structuring, more sales, and more distribution there.
Sure, sure. Actually, this is quite helpful and quite clear. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for answering all my questions patiently. Thank you.
Thanks.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Kshitij Saraf from Tusker Investments. Please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon. Thank you for taking my question. What is going on the investment banking side, once we take out the interest component, which seems to be growing year-over-year, because of the debt issuance? On the transaction side, we see around INR 240 crore of revenue last year, and this quarter, this year, it's about INR 365 crore, and our private wealth AUM has grown 27% odd in the same period. So if you could just help understand the moving parts over here.
Sure. So I think, you know, our, the way we model the integrated investment bank till this quarter, last quarter, was always going to be with the earnings of the private credit business, which is the bespoke finance business and the corporate lending business as part of the investment bank. What we are doing is we are simplifying that structure, which you see on page six, where going forward, the corporate advisory and capital market business will not have kind of the lending revenue in it. The lending revenues will sit in the private credit syndication business. What the corporate advisory and capital market business will have, will have an origination fee for bringing the business to the private credit syndication group.
Therefore, it simplifies the structure because the capital requirements for the corporate advisory and capital market business is very, very small, and this would be even with the capital of INR 300-400 crore, they will be able to generate upwards of 50%-60% ROE. So this is kind of the split, and therefore, on the pure investment banking side, the revenue number, along with institutional equities, would be circa between INR 400-500 crore. That number, I think the expected growth will be in the high teens over the next couple of years.
Understood. In terms of Q1, was it a bit slow because of several macroeconomic factors? Do you see Q2 getting better off? For example, do you see more IPOs, a little larger sizes, INR 2,000 -INR 4,000 crore more in the second quarter?
Yes. And I also what happens is the timeline to book the fees is after the IPO closures. So, you know, we have closed quite a few large QIPs this quarter, and some of the IPOs that we closed last quarter, the fees will be booked actually this quarter. But you're right. Many large deals are getting launched in this quarter, too.
Okay. And lastly, we have 44 wealth managers on the private wealth side. What is our, what is our plan in terms of people on this front?
Look, the private wealth business for us is one of the big focus businesses for us. I don't want to give you a number in terms of where we take the RMs or the relationship managers over the next 12 or 18 months, but you should know that the way we look at this is what you're seeing is just the private wealth is 44. There is also what we call the Elite Wealth, which has another 54 odd relationship managers. So we're, from our point of view, we're at 100+, which we will continue to grow as we continue to focus on this business. And as you know, in going back to a question that someone else was asking, please don't think of these additions to the team as just from a cost income of that business.
We are massively driving the cross-sell across, you know, taking the corporate as a client or taking the institution as a client, and we're driving the cross-sell across businesses. So while you may be. You will see the benefits of that cross-sell coming through in the quarters to come as well. But yeah, you know, from our perspective, we are currently, the way we look at it, we are at 100 today.
All right. Lastly, on the regulator front, is there any update we have, post the last filing?
Two things. From the RBI perspective, the special audit is complete, and we have submitted our response to RBI. So we will discuss and work with RBI towards closure. As far as the SEBI piece is concerned, we are fully cooperating with them in terms of the information that they need to complete their investigation. So that's the update.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Manoj Dua from Geometric. Please go ahead. The line from Mr. Manoj seems to be disconnected. Shall we move to the next question, sir?
Yes.
Sure. The next question is from the line of Apurva Sharma from BugleRock . Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. Am I audible?
Yes sir, you're audible.
Yeah. Yeah, so, a few questions. So on slide 28, last year we saw in Q1 FY 2024 of INR 8.18 crore of investments in AMC and digital, and this quarter it was around INR 33.3 crore. So, what is it, the likely level? Will it be at this level, or how do we see it going forward?
Yeah. So I'll take that question. I think it will be around INR 25-INR 30 crores for digital every quarter, and it will be between INR 10-INR 15 crores on asset management and another, say, INR 5-INR 10 crores for the AIF business. So roughly, all put together, you should assume INR 50 crores per quarter will be the investment. And we will continue investing over eight quarters, so it's almost a INR 300-INR 400 crore investment. All of this investment will get funded, hopefully, from the profitability of the business, considering the pipeline as well as the growth in the business looks very robust.
Next question is, what is the cost of funds for JM Financial Home Loans, and how has it moved in the past one year or so? Just get some color on that.
Manish here. I'm just on cost of fund of JM Financial Home Loans. You have to understand that 25% roughly of the liability is funded through National Housing Bank Refinance scheme, and balance is funded through bank borrowing as well as the NCD. All liabilities are long-term. Total cost of fund as of today is around 8.56%, and incremental cost of fund is around 9%.
So from 8.56 to incremental of 9%. That's what you are saying? Okay. So on, again, you know, the EMI bounce ratio, as you were seeing, was around 17.3% for March 2024, but collection efficiency is shown at 99.1%, right? So how should we look at this data? And then I have a follow-up on this, yeah.
Right. So, you know, physically, there are various people show it very differently, but what we show is the current month collection efficiency. That means if current month, I have put, let's say, 20,000 customers EMI, out of that 17% bounce, roughly, you know, 3,400, whatever that number is, and out of that, we cover, we recover or collect the 99%. So we don't count as like false outstanding offer or an EMI of the last month collected this month as part of the collection efficiency.
Okay. And, so, who, whose responsibility is the collection team, you know? And how often does the follow-up happen, and how big is it, the collection team? So just-
Yeah. So, good question. So, you know, when we started this year, this business, you know, six years back, we were the first one to hire collection head as well as all the collection executives. So as a process, wherever there is a branch which has more than 20-25 bounces, we put collection executive. Till then, it was sales and credit who kind of collect this, the bounces. Today, the team is as large as 100 people on the collection on the executive side, and there are six to seven people on the litigation side. And the structure-wise, we have national collection, we have state-level collection, we have area collection as well as collection executive. So out of 112 odd branches, around 80-85 branches would have collection executives, responsible for the collection.
At the same time, 12-month MOB, bounces, is also collected by the sales and credit jointly, along with the collection branch. We have a separate vertical, so collection reports to the collection head, sales and credit. Nobody reports in a branch to, you know, branch head. We don't have a branch head concept. We have a separate vertical.
Okay.
Everybody sits in a branch, but they report to the vertical head.
Yeah. Thank you for the detailed answer. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Sandeep Thakkar, who's an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thank you, sir, for the opportunity, for question. And my question is also present. Hello?
Sorry to interrupt, Sandeep. We can hear you, but we can't hear you very clearly.
Yes, sir.
Just a moment, sir. Just a moment, sir. Just a moment. Yeah, sir. Can you hear me, sir?
Yes.
Yeah, sir, the answer to your question is, we are very old company, sir, and we have very good promoter owners. We have past history with Morgan Stanley. So our category is very good, sir. So my question is, sir, why don't we grow like other mutual funds? Sir, could you please give some thoughts on this?
Yeah, it's a very good question, and the answer is yes, we want to grow like them, and we want to be as big as them. And that is the idea of the entire, sort of version two for us, where we do not want to focus on leverage businesses except for our retail home loans business and, margin trade finance business. And the idea is to get bigger, in the businesses, what our brand stands for and what our brand is known for.
Sir, can we expect which timeline is the-
Sorry, I can't, I can't hear you clearly. Your voice is garbling. Sorry, it's not clear.
Sir.
We are aiming to grow as fast as we can. In home loans, we want to grow at 35%, and in our corporate advisory and capital markets business, we want to grow in the high teens. On the wealth management side, we want to grow between 25% and 30%.
Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for the day. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Vishal Kampani for closing comments.
Yes, thank you very much for participating on our quarterly call. And, as promised, we started the quarterly call this year, and we will continue with this format to have a call every quarter. And, I look forward to interacting with you all, on the calls as well as in person. And, you know, with that, I hand it back to the moderator, and thank you, everyone.
On behalf of JM Financial, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.