Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Pondy Oxides and Chemicals Limited Q1 FY 2027 earnings conference call hosted by Go India Advisors. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star and zero on your touchtone phone. Please note that this call is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Sana Kapoor from Go India Advisors. Thank you, and over to you, ma'am.
Thank you, Shruti. Good afternoon, everyone, welcome to Pondy Oxides and Chemicals Limited's earnings call to discuss Q1 FY 2027 financial performance. Today, we are joined by Mr. Ashish Bansal, Chairman and Managing Director; Mr. K. Kumaravel, Director Finance & Company Secretary; Mr. R. S. Vaidhyanathan, Executive Director; Mr. Vijay Balakrishnan, Chief Financial Officer; and Mr. Pratik Gupta, Associate Vice President, Operations. We must remind you that the discussion on today's call may include certain forward-looking statements and must be therefore viewed in conjunction with the risks that the company faces. May I now request Mr. Ashish Bansal to take us through the company's business outlook and financial highlights, subsequent to which we will open the floor for Q&A. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Sana. Good afternoon, everyone, thank you for joining us for POCL's Q1 FY 2027 earnings call. I hope you had the opportunity to go through our financial disclosures available on the exchanges. I'll walk you through the key strategic updates, operational progress, and financial performance, followed by a Q&A session. We have started FY 2027 on a strong footing with Q1 FY 2027 revenue, EBITDA, and PAT going up 56%, 30%, and 32% year-on-year respectively. I'm pleased to share that our copper vertical continued its strong momentum in Q1 FY 2027, achieving the highest-ever quarterly production and sales, with both volumes increasing by more than three times on a year-on-year basis. These results reflect the strength of our integrated business model, our focus on value-added products, and our commitment to delivering sustainable and profitable growth.
Before turning to the financial performance, I would like to highlight the key strategic initiatives that have supported our strong start to the year are strengthening the foundation of POCL's long-term growth and value creation. Our copper expansion project continues to make encouraging progress. We are establishing a 36,000 metric tons per annum copper cathode facility at our Thervoy Kandigai plant in Tamil Nadu with a total investment of approximately INR 200 crores, fully funded through our internal accruals. We have already incurred around INR 25 crores towards the project, execution remains on schedule with major equipment orders finalized and key construction activities underway. The first phase of 18,000 metric tons per annum is on track for commissioning by December 2026, with trial runs expected in Q4 FY 2027, while phase II is targeted for commissioning by Q3 FY 2028.
This project marks a key milestone in strengthening our non-ferrous portfolio and expanding our value-added copper vertical. The facility will leverage integrated pyrometallurgy refining and electrorefining technologies to produce LME-grade A copper cathodes, further enhancing our vertical integration capabilities. Upon commissioning, the project is expected to improve our product mix, enhance margins, and drive profitability through value-added copper products. It will also create operational synergies, support import substitution, increase the use of recycled copper, and further reinforce our commitment to sustainability and long-term value creation. The incremental 6,000 metric tons per annum copper recycling capacity commissioned in Q4 FY 2026 has ramped up well and is expected to achieve capacity utilization of approximately 75% through FY 2027. These investments will strengthen our copper vertical, enhance value addition, and support our long-term growth strategy.
CRISIL has upgraded POCL's outlook to A/Positive from A/Stable while reaffirming its credit rating, recognizing its strong balance sheet and sustained financial performance. Building on these strategic developments, our operational financial performance in Q1 FY 2027 reflected the resilience of our business and disciplined execution across the organization. While lead production and sales volumes moderated during the quarter, it was a conscious strategic decision to prioritize value-added products amid supply chain disruption and production constraints that enabled us to achieve our highest-ever lead EBITDA per ton of INR 21,595. Copper production and sales volumes increased by more than 3x year-on-year in Q1 FY 2027, supported by the ongoing ramp-up of the additional capacity. The segment delivered strong profitability, with copper EBITDA per ton rising 66% year-on-year to INR 48,488. Copper is expected to contribute approximately 45% of our overall revenue in FY 2027 as capacity ramp-up progresses.
Coming to financial performance for Q1 FY 2027. Revenue growth remained robust during Q1 FY 2027, with revenue increasing to INR 931 crores, registering 56% year-on-year growth. The overall sales mix between domestic and export markets stood at 55% and 45% respectively, and between the lead and copper verticals, export mix stood at 55% and 25% respectively. Within the lead vertical, value-added products accounted for 85% of the segment revenue, reinforcing a strategic focus on increasing the share of higher-margin products. EBITDA and PAT increased by 30% and 32% on a year-on-year basis to INR 56 crores and INR 36 crores respectively. In Q1 FY 2027, EBITDA and PAT margins remained strong at 6% and 3.9% in Q1 FY 2027. On a consolidated basis, the same momentum continued, with revenue, EBITDA, and PAT increasing by 55%, 33%, and 43% year-on-year respectively. Driven by higher volumes, improved product mix, and enhanced operational efficiencies.
As we move forward, we remain confident in our long-term growth journey. Our target 2030 roadmap is focused on delivering over 15% volume growth, 20%+ CAGR in revenue and profitability, EBITDA margins above 8%, ROCE exceeding 20%, and deriving over 60% of our revenue from value-added products. The ramp-up of expanded lead capacity is ongoing copper capacity additions, increasing contribution from value-added products, forward integration initiatives, and our continued focus on operational excellence and sustainability position us well to deliver profitable growth, enhance shareholder returns, and create long-term value for all our stakeholders. Thank you for your continued trust and support. I would now like to open the floor for questions over to you.
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question- and- answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking questions. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Dheeraj Ram from 360 ONE Capital. Please proceed.
Hi, sir. Thank you for taking up the question. Sir, you've guided in last quarter for around INR 1.25 lakh tons to INR 1.3 lakh tons of lead volume sales for FY 2027. Based on current quarter run rate, do you expect another maybe INR 1.1 lakh tons of sales for next three quarters, or do we see any revision of this?
Good afternoon, Dheeraj. As you're aware, the whole supply chain issues were, through the quarter, they were a little constrained, and that is the main reason. We hope to achieve and catch up to the volumes. We'll have to see how the whole supply chain pans out over the next one or two months. We are confident at least we will be able to close up to the numbers that we had committed over the last quarter.
Okay. Since you're importing majority of copper scrap, but copper has seen very good growth while there's only problem in lead in industry. Could you explain briefly on why is this only being facing in lead recycling while not in copper?
It is more of the regional placement. Of course, we are also importing copper, but the copper material coming across from a few other locations as well. Copper has just started, so when you look at the volume growth, you look at multiple growth. Wherein lead already being at very high volumes, you see that differential not showing as much. It's more of a locational advantage little bit, and little bit to do with the supply chain from the kind of countries that the copper scrap was imported from.
Okay, got it. Do you see any these difficulties or challenges being relaxed as of now or do we see this increasing going forward?
As of now, it is status quo. I'm not too sure, I don't think it looks like it should increase more. As of now it's a little early to comment on the same.
Okay. Last question, sir. What is our capacity utilization for our new 72,000 ton TKD plant of lead, and what is the one for 6,000 tons of new copper plant that you commenced last quarter?
On the TKD new capacity, because here we mainly do more of our pure lead products, the capacity utilization is below 50%. As you're aware, we had concentrated more this quarter having lower volumes to keep up the margins more on the value-added part. Almost 85% of our production has been from the value-added production. The new facility, the capacity utilization has been little low versus the other unit has been a little higher. In terms of copper, almost 75% of the capacity is being utilized on the additional capacity added.
Just a follow-up. This 75% that you're saying is on the new capacity that commenced in copper?
Yes. Including the old and the new, 75% overall is being used.
Okay. Overall. Okay. Thank you, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Sagar Shah from Spark Capital. Please proceed.
First of all, thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my first question was just a follow-up on the previous participants on the lead utilization. I understand that the lead utilization is low because of the difficulty in getting the scrap as well as in sales, actually. I wanted to understand, is there a softness in the demand as well? We are not exposed to Middle East, we are more exporting to the European countries. Is there a demand slowdown as well as in the Western part as well as what we have seen in the Middle Eastern region?
Basically, first of all, our exports are not to the European countries. They are predominantly more to Southeast Asia and the likes. In terms of what you call demand softening, there's no demand softening, but there has been only supply chain delays, because of which the volumes have been lower and all of those.
When do you see the demand on track? At least in H2 or will this softness in demand continue in FY 2027 or later?
Like I said, there is no softness in demand. There is a gap in supply because of delay in shipments and the supply chain disruptions, but overall, the demand is intact.
Okay. Fine. Sir, my second question was related to our cost pressures, sir. The other expenses were up 16% year-over-year and 44% sequentially. Is this only because of this increase in the freight forwarding costs or in the increase in the logistics cost or is there something else also in this one?
See, logistics is a very small part of increase, which is a part of it, definitely yes, but that does not contribute to the major part. The major part is contributed by the fuel prices and a couple of additives prices that have shot up in the last three months. Hello?
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Naman Parmar. You may proceed, sir.
Yeah. Thank you so much for the opportunity. Firstly, I wanted to understand that the current quarter you have attained the highest ever realization and EBITDA per ton on the lead side. What you will be guiding for the lead EBITDA per ton and the realization going forward? Or it is a one time only?
See, this quarter, this is Vijay. This time our value-added mix was about 85%. As we said in the past, whenever we do more of value-added, the EBITDA range will be around INR 19,000-INR 21,000. Since predominant portion of this lead volume comprises of value-added, we achieve this volume. Moving forward, when the volumes increase, we will be able to retain the sustained EBITDA level of about INR 18,000-INR 20,000 per metric ton. That is a sustainable level of EBITDA that will be maintained.
What you said, INR 17,000-INR 18,000 you will be sustaining EBITDA?
That is the number what we have said. INR 18,000-INR 20,000 per metric ton EBITDA levels. That is a sustainable level which we can attain moving forward.
Okay, got it. Secondly, on the copper side plant, how is the CapEx going on and what will be the outlook like it will be starting your 18,000 ton metric ton. It was expected to start in the September, right? How is the CapEx going on on that side?
Correct me if I'm wrong, your question is, what is the CapEx that's already been done on the copper part and if.
Yes.
As you are thinking it's September month, will it start in September? Is my question right? Am I understanding?
Yes.
Currently, all the machine orders are in place, and they're almost ready for inspection. We have spent approximately INR 25 crore out of this thing, and the further part of spending will happen in this quarter. Our commitment on starting the trial production was December 2026 and not September 2026. September 2026, the machine installations will start around September end, and will take about October, November for the machine installations and the trial productions to happen in December, which is on track.
Okay, got it. Lastly, if you can give what volume you are expecting on the both the lead side and the lead and the copper for the 2027 and 2028.
We'll revert with those volume guidance shortly in the future. Yes, on this.
Okay. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. Before we proceed for the next question, we would like to remind participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. Participants who wish to ask a question may please press star and one at this time. The next question is on the line of Khush from Geojit Financial Services. Please proceed.
Yeah, hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Just wanted to understand how much of the sourcing is coming from the Middle Eastern trade routes because it is not just you, it is the whole industry that has highlighted to the supply chain issues. That would be helpful.
Our Middle Eastern procurement is well below 5% , but the issue more than the Middle Eastern procurement is the supply chain in terms of the shipping route that is through the Hormuz and all of those which are getting delayed. That is the main issue and because of which the whole delay is happening.
Sure. If these delays persist because of the XYZ reasons, how do we trying to mitigate it?
We are looking at alternative sourcing as we have, and we have already started working on it from our Southeast Asian and other South American and other region suppliers. We are trying to push for more supplies from these regions.
Okay. That would be at the similar pricing that you are buying right now, or it could be at the higher end?
Technically, it should be at the similar pricing, but it all depends again on the inward freight costs and all of those. We'll have to see as the material starts being offered.
Got it, sir. In terms of the plastics and aluminum division, where are we in terms of what is the ramp-up, et cetera, over there?
Plastic division for this quarter, it has turned profitable. We have achieved about INR 15 lakhs in terms of net profit. We did about 800 tons approximately, we are preparing for doing value additions in the quarters to come. With respect to aluminum, we are doing a small quantum, about 200 metric tons. That is what is the production right now in terms of both these verticals.
Got it, sir. One last question. For the full year, what should be the expected value-added mix for lead? Because this quarter it was extremely high at 85%. I'm sure as things improve, it would come down. What would be the sustainable mix of value added in for lead?
Yeah. Annually, we are looking at around 65%-70% on the value-added mix.
Okay. Got it.
Last year was at about 63%, and this year we are expecting and targeting around 65%-70%.
In Q1 FY 2026, how much it would be?
85%.
No, last year.
You're talking about last year. Last year it was about 65% approximately.
Oh, okay. It's a huge Got it. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind participants that you press star and one to ask a question. To ask a question, please press star and one now. The next question is from the line of Pawan Kumar from Global Conscient Research. Please proceed.
Sir, thank you for the opportunity. Most of the questions have already been answered. One last question is on the CapEx side. The guidance that you have alluded towards INR 175 crore for the financial 2027, which you have already disclosed in the investor presentation. Out of this INR 175 crore, can you please break down that how that is the growth CapEx and the maintenance CapEx out of this?
The current INR 25 crore is for the fresh CapEx that has already been spent. Out of approximately that INR 175 crore, the maintenance CapEx will be in the range of INR 20 crore-INR 25 crore, and balance from INR 140 crore-INR 150 crore will be for the copper new plant addition.
Okay, sir. Thank you, sir. That is all my side, and best of luck for the future.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Aditya from Raya Asset. Please proceed.
Hi. Am I audible, sir?
Yes.
Thank you for the opportunity, sir. I just wanted to understand on copper, as we are ramping up our copper capacities. From sourcing point of view, how should we think about copper scrap security? We are seeing that global supply is tightening, especially on the copper side as well, and more and more countries are looking to keep more of scrap within their boundaries. Are we seeing any kind of sourcing problems, especially on the copper side going forward? What is our take on that?
Currently, most of our copper sourcing is on imports and with little more diversified different countries than where we are doing our lead predominantly. We are also looking at copper from domestic sourcing, which would contribute about 25%-30% going forward. A lot of which we have also started looking at it currently. The sourcing model for scrap going forward will have to be extremely dynamic in terms of being able to quickly switch over to domestic and versus imports. It has to be a dynamic function of the whole process. As we go forward, we'll have to keep making it stronger.
Got it, sir. Very helpful. Just on the lead side, we understand that it's not a demand issue right now, but majorly a sourcing issue, like we are facing supply chain issues because of this Middle East crisis. If this crisis persists, say for the next one, two, or three months, how are we planning to source our scrap on the lead part? Because again, our lead imports are quite high.
See, when we say sourcing, it is more of the shipping delays and all of it, which is happening. Already, we have started looking into other regions like the Southeast Asian region and little more on the domestic part of it. Going forward, the specific shipping routes will have to be avoided. Because of it, the sailing time would be a little longer and maybe a little impact on the pricing in terms of raw material overall. It will find its balance in the due course. It's not going to be perennial.
Got it, sir. Just one small follow-up on that. Does that lead to working capital? Sorry.
See, whenever there's a war, post-war, the scrap generation is also at multi-fold due to all the calamities that happened during the war.
Thank you, sir. Just a quick follow-up on that. With routes being elongated, does that stretch our working capital also? Do we see that kind of working capital being stretched at least for next one or two quarters?
No, our working capital is not stretched if you look at our current numbers. Our payment cycle is when the material arrives closer to the port, that's about a week before the arrival of the material. That still stays in place. That does not really has not impacted our working capital cycle.
Thank you, sir. That's very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Before we take the next question, we would like to remind participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Jigar Jani from Nuvama. Please proceed.
Hi. Thanks for taking my question, and congratulations on great numbers in a tough environment. My first question is on the copper EBITDA per ton. If I recall rightly, I think last quarter you had guided for INR 35,000- INR 40,000 on a normalized basis before the value addition kicks in. This quarter, again, we have surpassed last quarter's EBITDA per ton in copper. What kind of guidance would you like to provide before value addition for the copper EBITDA per ton for the full year?
Thank you. You are exactly right. We had guided at INR 35,000- INR 40,000. With our increased capacity right now with the addition of 6,000, we are able to get little more efficiencies back into our operations and translate that into the sales pricing. Also because of good amount of volumes, we are able to compress a little bit on our working capital cycle in terms of overall cost on that basis, we were able to bring down by a couple of basis points. In addition to that, currently in this quarter, we also had a little run-up due to the demand situation in terms of availability. We are able to get little more premium on the selling side on copper.
Nevertheless, looking at going forward margins on this, we should be able to do in excess of INR 40,000, which mainly is driven through the efficiency that we have gotten through our increased capacities and some machine additions and all of those. We can safely guide above INR 40,000 would be for the part which was earlier INR 35,000- INR 40,000.
Great. Sir, on volumes also, I think we had guided 12,000 tons for copper. Again, first quarter we have done about 4,000. We are already at 75% utilization. Can we expect some more ramp-up in this or should we expect that like 4,000, 4,500 should be the run rate till the new capacity can kick in?
We will have our new capacity kicking in the last quarter. Definitely the last quarter, we will have the capacity benefit of the new capacity coming in as well. Till then, we will be pushing hard on the existing capacity, whatever we have and see what maximum we can do.
Understood, sir. Sir, lastly, just a question on copper. Right now when we say copper cathodes right now, till what stage do we do the scrap processing? Do we just do the ingots or do we do the anodes also as of now? Just wanted to understand where.
Anode is a part of the new project that's coming up. From the scrap processing to anode to cathode will be a part of the new process that comes. Currently, we are doing the basic pre-processing in terms of shredding, chopping, sorting, and a small amount of melting as well into some remelted kind of ingot or a billet, but majority is a pre-billet condition, pre-melt.
When we target Q3 FY 2027 18,000 tons, that will be till cathode and not till anode. Is the understanding correct?
The installed capacity, what we are establishing for 18,000 tons will be till the end product cathode.
Understood. Sir, lastly, any plans that you have formalized on forward integration from copper cathode into busbars, wire rods or any value-added products that you're looking at as of now?
We are on the way of finalizing. Right now we don't have a confirmed product which we will be announcing. Closer to as we get to our final production stages on the cathode, we will come out and announce our further plans of forward integration.
Sure. Lastly, any update on lithium ion or we are still at pilot stages there?
Sir, Mr. Pratik will speak little more on the lithium ion.
Yeah. Hi. The industry is still evolving, we are still contemplating and working with some strategic technical partners. Predominantly in India, only the LFP chemistry is available and wherein the recovery extraction is about 1.5%-2% and rest, the iron sulfate is not of much demand and much value. We are just monitoring the entire feedstock arrival and the other challenges like the evolving technology and other stuff. Once we kind of convince ourselves in terms of what to and how to go about it and we will surely let all of you know about it.
Sure. Okay. Thank you so much and best of luck for future. Thank you.
Thank you. To ask a question, please press star and one now. The next question is from the line of Saransh Gupta from SVAN Investment. Please press.
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity. I hope I am audible.
Yes, you are.
Yeah. Sir, I wanted to firstly understand, in this quarter, our value-added mix was 85%, and that has been the historical high, I believe. Was this due to the supply constraints or was this because of our customer demand?
Basically, we had some supply constraints. We did discuss with our customers where we spoke to them and interested because customers who take the value-added products are specifically dependent on specific suppliers for value-added products. We requested them if they could take the basic pure lead and other products from elsewhere and take the value-added products from us. We were able to convert those into the order. If you see basically our value-added products have been sold as they were in terms of volume, but since the pure lead volume did come down, the percentage is at 85%.
Understood, sir. Just a follow-up on that. Assuming the similar situation continuing in this quarter as well, do our customers have the bandwidth to accept more value-added products in the lead segment?
I don't get the question. You mean bandwidth to accept more in the sense?
Sir, in this quarter, we did 85% of value-added, which helped us achieve an EBITDA of INR 21,500 something. Do our customers have the requirement of additional value-added products in this quarter as well? Because I believe that yearly there is a certain demand that has to be met for value-added, and post that we can supply only alloys to them. Hello? Hello?
Hello, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, please stay connected. The management line has been disconnected. Ladies and gentlemen, we have the management connected. Sir, you may proceed.
Yes, please.
Hello.
Mr. Saransh, you can continue with your question.
Yeah, sure. Sir, I just wanted to understand how conveniently we can shift our value-added mix that helps us attain higher EBITDA per ton, as in your answer, you said that this was a one-time event that because of supply chain issues, you requested your customers to take higher value-added products.
No. I'll again explain the same thing to you. We did not request our customers to take any volume of value-added products. We requested our customers to take the basic pure lead product from any other supplier because that's more easier to procure, whereas value-added products are supplier specific. When our volumes of the pure lead drop, in totality, if you see the percentage, it was 85%.
Understood.
We concentrated to see that we don't drop the volume of the value-added products from where it is, and rather drop the volume of the lower profitability products and continue with whatever best we can do in the amount of raw material that was available at that point in time.
Understood, sir. Just one last question. In the last con call, I guess there was some receivables around INR 110 crore, INR 115 crore that we had to receive in April. What's the status on that?
That was received. It was claimed that it was received on April 5th itself. During the con call, it was told the negative cash flow was due to a vessel delay, which was supposed to be around the last week of this thing and moved to April 1st, 2nd. Hence, we received that payment on April 5th, and that's what showed the cash flow to be negative. That was received on April 5th.
Understood. Sir, at the end of the quarter, what is our working capital cycle?
Currently, we are at 46 days.
Okay.
Versus 53 days earlier.
Great. Understood, sir. Thank you so much and all the best.
We have a positive cash flow as well, yeah.
Yeah. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Dev from ithought PMS. Please proceed.
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, sir. I understand that by end of this financial year, we'll be having 12,000 metric tons of copper recycling, 36,000 metric tons of copper cathode. How much of this we will use captive recycled copper for the copper cathode, and the balance amount, where we'll be sourcing our copper pre-melt from? I wanted to understand in different scenarios what could be our margins and what could be the EBITDA per ton, like when we are doing copper cathode from own pre-melt and when we are doing copper cathode by sourcing it from outside.
By the end of this financial year, we will have an installed capacity of 18,000 metric tons of cathode. By Q3 of next financial year, we'll have the balance 18,000 on stream. We will be using almost close to 70%-80% of our in-house recycled material. Basically, the idea of using in-house will be the lower grade will be used for our production and the higher grade will be sold off as it is, because on the higher grade of scrap, as much value addition will not make sense. That kind of a processing cost and everything. That will be sold as well. Apart from that, we have tied up for sourcing of various other kinds of copper scrap that will be used for this melt.
What we had guided was a blended margin profile on this should be in the range of around INR 60,000-INR 65,000. As of now, we still hold the same unless until we start and of course, as we start and we go through couple of months, efficiencies will definitely kick in. We are sure that we will be able to increase the number on that, but a bare minimum of INR 60,000- INR 65,000 per ton will be achieved on this cathode part.
Got it. Sir, since we have higher copper cathode facility, are we also planning to increase our copper recycling facility for the backward integration from 12,000?
Yeah. We most probably will, but we will look at it at that point in time based on the raw material mix that we wish to push in for our productions.
Got it, sir. Sir, next question was on the lead side. Sir, given the disruption that we have seen in the current quarter on the lead, still our sourcing mix was 97% for international. Any specific reason why we didn't go for more domestic sourcing despite the disruption in the international channels?
Yes, the domestic pricing, because the domestic market understanding that there is a delay, the price delta was so high that if we had gone in for more domestic sourcing, our overall profitability in terms of per kg EBITDA would have drastically dropped. It did not really make too much of sense to push in to go for domestic sourcing and wipe out the profitability as well.
Okay, got it, sir. Thank you so much. All the best for the next quarter.
Thank you.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to two per participant. In order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants in the conference, please limit your questions to two per participant. The next question is on the line of Darshil Zaveri from Crown Capital. Please proceed.
Hello. Thank you. Good evening. For taking my question. Firstly, congratulations on a good set of performance in a very challenging environment, sir. I just wanted to know, a lot of my questions have been already answered. Just on the lead side, sir, are we still seeing that big supply chain issue right now happening? Will it hamper our Q2 as well? The war doesn't seem to be getting over anytime soon, and even if it does, the shipping lines might not come to full force right now. What would be your outlook and view on the current Q2 happening and as well as if we have to hit our guidance of nearly INR 120, INR 1 lakh 20,000 then we would have to do sizably in H2. Do we have enough capacity for that, sir?
See, in terms of capacity, yes, we have the capacity to do that. In terms of will it continue for Q2, I would love to be optimistic that it should not continue for Q2. The first month has been a little better than the last three months. Hoping that things will be better, but we have to only wait and watch how things pan out on the supply disruption side as of now. We might not be able to give you extremely concrete answer. Maybe another month down the line, we might have more concrete answer, but at this moment, we stay as optimistic that it should end.
Oh, okay. Fair enough, sir. I just wanted to know, like in FY 2028, when our full, the new cathode capacity comes in, what kind of volume are we expecting from copper in FY 2028? A rough range will also do, sir.
I didn't get your question. We'll be expecting a.
In copper, like FY 2028, from the 18,000, what would be the capacity utilization ramp-up that we can see, sir?
In FY 2028, we are confident we'll be able to utilize over 80%, 90% of the capacity of 36,000 metric tons.
Okay. Of 36,000, we will be able to do. Yeah. Okay. That's it from my side, sir. Thank you so much, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is on the line of Swaraj, an investor. Please proceed.
Hello? Hello?
Yes, please. You're audible, yes.
I'm audible.
Yes, please.
Thank you for good set of results. Sir, my question is, the percentage of our copper in the revenue has now increased from lead. Until our cathode comes live, like you are saying it will come in December, in the two quarters we will have, shall we assume a slightly lower EBITDA margin and take a little hit?
Hit in what? The margin will be hit. In absolute quantum, the margin will be much higher, right?
No, like right now in this quarter, our copper percentage has increased significantly. The EBITDA margin has de-grown a little.
Are you looking at it in value or in percentage?
No, sir. EBITDA margin, sir.
Look, EBITDA margin. Are you looking at it in value or in percentage?
Sir, percentage.
You'll be happier if it is 9%, but it's still, for example, INR 50 crores versus if it is INR 70 crores, but it is only 8%. You're saying you'll be happier at 9% and INR 50 crores. I'm just trying to understand.
Thank you, sir.
Absolutely, in the absolute quantum numbers, it will be much higher because, per ton realization on copper margins will be, at cathode level, be in the range of about INR 65,000 versus lead being at INR 20,000-INR 21,000. Accordingly, if you look at percentage, it will be slightly lower, but in terms of absolute quantum, it will be much higher.
Sir, the 8% EBITDA margin target that we are aiming for, when can we achieve it gradually?
We will be able to have a blended 8% by 2030 is what we have given the target. We are confident we'll achieve much before that.
Okay. Thank you so much. That's it from my side.
Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from the line of Utkarsh Somaiya from Eiko Quantum Solutions. Please proceed.
Thank you so much. Great set of numbers in this environment where peers couldn't perform. I just had a question. Now, once your entire copper capacity comes on stream next year, we should be able to do around 28,000 odd tons. This is going to be a mix of cathode, which is going to do 60,000+, and your base copper recycling. How should we look at the EBITDA per ton in FY 2028 for this 28,000 odd tons blended EBITDA per ton?
In FY 2028, we will have the complete capacity of 36,000 metric tons of cathode by itself. We should be able to do in excess of 30,000 tons of cathode by itself. Most of our recycling material that we generate, almost about 70%-80% will be internally consumed into the cathode plant, and only about 20% of which would be sold to the outside market. As of now, in the initial feasibility stage, we are guiding on the cathode side, approximately INR 60,000-INR 65,000 per metric ton on the cathode, and recycling in excess of INR 40,000.
What will be the recycling volumes?
As of now, we are adding a volume of 12,000 tons, so definitely that will be fully utilized.
Even in FY 2028, we can assume 12,000 of copper recycling and around 30,000 of copper cathode.
Yeah, technically, the 12,000 should be higher by FY 2028, but as of now, till we don't install the capacity, I would not commit that the 12,000 would be higher. Copper cathode capacity will be 36,000, and we are saying that comfortably we'll be producing and selling over 30,000. I'm only still taking a delta of 20% and speaking that we'll be at 30,000 tons and above.
Sorry, I'm slightly confused. Today, our copper recycling capacity is 12,000, correct?
Yeah.
You don't have cathode yet. You're going to commission it in December.
Correct.
In FY 2028, when your cathode, you do 30,000 volumes, what will be your volumes of your base business, which is 12,000 today? The capacity, it's not the volume, if you can give me.
Like I said, as of now, it's 12,000, unless we add more capacity, which we most likely might add. Until I add, I will not be able to commit, but we will definitely look into the kind of raw material available, and according to that, we will have our processing lines come into place.
Understood. Have you decided on your.
Sorry to interrupt, Mr. Utkarsh. May we request you to join the question?
Okay. No worry. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Okay.
The next question is from the line of Hiren Desai, an investor. Please proceed.
Yeah. The copper recycling that we have is 12,000, and by the end of complete expansion, we will have a cathode capacity of 36,000 ton. Now, INR 60,000-INR 65,000 per ton EBITDA that we are talking about, will it be on 36,000 ton capacity, or will it be on 36,000 ton of cathode plus 12,000 of recycling, adding up to 48,000 tons? It will be on 48,000 ton or it will be on 36,000 ton?
I think sometime back, very precisely the same thing I explained, nevertheless, I'll explain this once more. Basically, as I explained earlier to another gentleman who asked a similar question was that the blended margin guidance on the cathode will be approximately INR 60,000-INR 65,000, but definitely that should go up once the efficiencies come in. Whatever we sell the recycled product directly without processing into the cathode plant will be above INR 40,000 per ton. 80% of our recycling material, which is approximately somewhere around eight or 9,000 tons, we will be utilizing into our cathode plant. The balance, about 25,000 or 22,000 whatever we consume, will be from other scrap that we will be importing. When we take a blended of these two, it will be in the range of INR 60,000-INR 65,000.
What is sold outside, that will be an addition of INR 30,000+.
Okay.
Yeah.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aniket Gada, an investor. Please proceed. Mr. Aniket, your line has been unmuted. Sir, we are not able to hear you.
Am I audible right now?
Yes, sir.
If you can speak a little louder would be better. It's not too audible.
I just wanted to ask a couple of questions. Firstly, our EBITDA per ton for the lead business has been the highest that has been reported, and 45% of our lead business is the domestic market. Has the implementation of EPR credits and battery waste management rules contributed in any way to improving realization margins of customer preference, or has there been a negligible impact in it?
No, in the investor presentation, they mentioned this quarter majority is imports. Question of EPR credit on domestic purchase is very minimal for this quarter. Probably in the second quarter, we look into it. If the domestic procurement improves, we can have the benefit of EPR in the second quarter.
If that happens, what kind of an effect would have on the margins?
Margin, that will be compensated through the price, Mr. Ashish.
Basically, when you buy a domestic raw material, people start factoring in the EPR pricing and all of that, and the raw material prices automatically get somewhere readjusted little bit based on those factors. The margin, the basic idea of EPR, it just makes it more viable for you to procure domestically and process, and that's how it helps. Maybe there could be a few basis points here and there, better margins, but it all depends on demand, supply in terms of availability of material, the pricing, and all of those. Currently, the domestic market pricing is higher, even after looking at all the EPR benefits and everything, hence we did not really push for domestic procurement. This quarter seems like little bit, the prices are better, so we have already started looking into the domestic procurement.
Secondly, we had some EPR credits available for us, which we did not monetize. Have we monetized them or are we looking for.
Yeah, we have not yet monetized that as still have it in our credit.
Last one. Copper cathode plant will be on the same unit where the current copper production is happening or it will be on a different site?
This will be a different site. It's a new site where the copper cathode plant is being installed. This is in Tamil Nadu. The current copper recycling plant is in Andhra Pradesh.
That's it for me. Thank you for answering my question.
Thank you, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Meet from Anvil. Please proceed.
Hi, am I audible?
Yes, please.
Hello. Yeah. My question was, for the current copper products, I wanted to know our end user industry and post the copper cathode coming on stream. Will the end user industry be the same or will it differ? Like currently for lead, it is predominantly autos. I just wanted to understand for the copper product.
Currently, we supply to a lot of wire rod makers, basically, the secondary wire rod makers and a few other household wire manufacturers. The higher grade of copper scrap we supply to a few of the busbar and other product manufacturers. Once we have a cathode, the cathode can be supplied to the industries which require the highest purity and highest form. Could be your industrial cables to your high-end electrical applications, to foils, to your requirements for your PCB boards and all of those kind of uses where purity is extremely critical.
Okay. Yeah. Sorry for repeating the question if it looks like, I have a doubt, like for the 36,000 tons, our 12,000 tons of scrap recycling will also be used. The volume in FY 2028, it will be 36 plus 12 or 36 is inclusive of the 12,000 tons?
Mr. Ashish already explained, again, I'm repeating you. For this 36,000 ton, out of 12,000 tons, they are planning to use 8,000 tons for the captive consumption. Balance 4,000 tons is added to the 36,000 tons. Notionally, sales realization for 40,000 tons per annum, not 48,000 metric ton.
Basically, the blend could change little bit plus or minus, depending on how much of internal recycled material is going to be used for the cathode. As if extreme high purity scrap might not be required to repurify and manufacture the cathode. Those could be sold off at a good value and price. The lower grades will be utilized internally, the higher grades could be sold off externally.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nakul Gupta. You may proceed with your question.
Hello. Good evening, everyone. I have basically a major question, what is the production output for the months of May to July? If you can quantify for each particular month, it will be great.
May to July or April to June?
April to June or April to July, if you want to give July numbers also.
We have given the quarterly numbers. I don't think it'll be possible right away. Maybe, we can get back to you with each monthly exact numbers.
Actually, I want to get a point, whether there is an upward trend of production or it is just stable around. The numbers are stable as they are in the April month. Can you just help me out with this, the numbers are in upward trend or not?
As the supply issues, the shipping issues have increased little bit towards the month of May, for initial part of June, the production numbers were little low in May and June. April month, the numbers were good and consistent on the higher side. On an average blended side, the overall quarter, the number on terms of lead was a little lower.
Okay. Another question I want to ask is, one of your competitor, market leader, has a bit of 10% degrowth in lead volume. When we see ours is about 25%. What is the rationale that why we have degrown at a much faster pace as compared to the competitor?
I won't be able to specifically comment on the competitor, regarding our reasons, we have already given you the reasons in terms of why the volumes are lower.
Okay, sir. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. That was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for the closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Thank you everyone for joining us today and for your continued interest in POCL. I would like to thank our board of directors for their guidance, our employees for their dedication, our customers for their continued trust, and our investors for their unwavering confidence in the company. If you have any further questions, please feel free to reach out to our investor relations team at Go India Advisors, and we appreciate your participation and continued support. Thank you and have a great day. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of Go India Advisors, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.