Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to V-Guard Industries Limited Q2 FY25 earnings conference call hosted by JM Financial. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star, then zero on a touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Deepak Agarwal. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you. Good afternoon and welcome to V-Guard Industries. On behalf of JM Financial, I welcome you all to V-Guard Industries Limited Q2 FY25 earnings conference call. We have with us senior management represented by Mr. Mithun Chittilappilly, Managing Director, Mr. Sudarshan Kasturi, Chief Financial Officer, Mr. Ramachandran Venkataraman, Director and Chief Operating Officer. Now, I hand over the call to the management for initial comments on quarterly performance, and then we'll open the floor for question and answer. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Yeah, thank you, Deepak, and to JM Financial team for hosting this call. A very warm welcome to everyone present, and thank you for joining us today to discuss the operating and financial performance of our company for the second quarter of financial year 2024-25. I trust all of you have had a chance to refer to our investor presentation, which was shared yesterday. The business delivered a healthy top-line growth this quarter despite some severe weather conditions in some parts of the country. We reported net consolidated net revenues of INR 1,294 crore in Q2 FY25, which is higher by 14.1% on a YOY basis. The electronics segment, comprising stabilizers, UPS, inverters, and batteries, led the growth with revenues increasing by 18.8% YOY. The strong performance of summer products in Q1 carried its momentum into the second quarter as well.
We are particularly pleased with the performance of the solar power system, which is a category for the future. In the electrical segment, our largest revenue contributor comprising wires, pumps, switchgears, and modular switches, we registered a growth of 16.3% YOY. Wires witnessed a significant growth, although the volatility in prices (copper prices) caused a margin impact of 0.6% at a company level. In the consumer durable segment, we reported a top-line growth of 10.6% on a YOY basis. The kitchen appliances business has been facing slowdown, which has impacted both V-Guard as well as Sunflame. Sunflame reported a degrowth in top-line of 1.1% YOY in Q2. Given the actions we had undertaken, there has been a growth in the general trade of the business, but the reduction of orders from the CSD segment has resulted in an overall decline in top-line. We believe that the fundamentals of the business are strong.
We continue to focus on completing the functional integration and pressing ahead with the growth strategy interventions. In terms of geographies, most regions have done well. We did witness some impact of inclement weather in East India, which is a very strong market for us. The non-south market reported a top-line growth of 16.9% YOY in Q2, while revenues from South India grew by 13.6% YOY. With this strong growth, the non-south markets contributed 44.5% of the total revenues in Q2. Gross margin continues to improve, aided by a higher share of in-house manufacturing and cost-saving initiatives and gradual shift to a premium portfolio. We have reported a gross margin of 35.8% in this quarter, comparing to 33.8% in Q2 last year, an increase of 200 basis points. EBITDA, excluding other income, was INR 110 crore in Q2, an increase of 19.2% on a YOY basis.
The EBITDA margin of 8.5% is 30 basis points higher compared to 8.2% in Q2 of last year. Major cost hits, such as advertising, travel, and other overheads, have largely returned to normative levels. In Q2 FY25, other income was INR 4 crore, compared with INR 14 crore in Q2 last year. This is because there was a one-off item related to the fair valuation gain on the Gegadyne investment in the previous financial year. Continued effective management of working capital has enabled us to deliver robust cash flows. Cash flow from operations remains strong for H1 FY25, as we generated INR 336 crore, which has helped us to progressively repay the debt taken for the Sunflame acquisition. We expect to repay the loan in full by the end of the current financial year.
It has been a fairly decent quarter, marked with revenue growth, margin improvement, continued effective working capital, healthy cash flow generation, and further repayment of the debt. We expect to continue the momentum and deliver a strong performance in the second half of the year. With that, I conclude my opening remarks. I would like to thank Deepak and the team at JM Financial for hosting this call, and would like to request the moderator to open the floor for Q&A. Thank you.
Thank you. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Natasha Jain from Nirmal Bang. Please go ahead.
Thank you for the opportunity, and congratulations on a very good set of numbers, sir. My first question is on the electronics side. So firstly, can you please bifurcate the growth between stabilizers and batteries separately, and if batteries as a category has picked up?
We don't give out the segment. We don't give out product-wise numbers, but in the electronics segment, stabilizers, inverters, and batteries, and the solar UPS, all three have grown. All three have contributed.
Understood. So sir, because in the past con call, you've said that batteries have been under pressure, so I was just wondering if there is any change in that particular category.
No, we have had a decent growth in batteries, both in Q1 and Q2. Like we said before, the summer season was very strong in most parts of the country, and we got some benefit of that in the first half of the Q2.
Understood, sir. And sir, in the same segment, in terms of margin, I mean, the margin growth has been impressive until now. I just want to understand how much more scale-up is possible here in terms of backward integration, and in the medium term, say in two years' time frame, what kind of expansion can we expect from here as well, given that even battery facility will get commissioned in the offing?
I think as far as margin improvement is concerned, we are still in the process of, so when we insource manufacturing, in some cases, we are seeing margin improvement, but in some of the cases, we are not doing it for margin improvement. In fact, we are going to do it for the case of competitiveness, for example, for batteries and for kitchen appliances. The primary reason for setting up the plant is that we were not competitive in the market. So some part of that improvement is going to be passed back into the market. We are right now almost still one to one and a half % behind in terms of gross margin from our earlier pre-COVID days, and that's the gap we are looking to bridge.
So some of this may not actually, you may not see an increase in margin, but you will see an increase in price competitiveness and better acceleration in sales.
Understood, sir. And so you mentioned insourcing, outsourcing. So can you please call out the current manufacturing versus outsourcing percentage?
I think we are at about 60-65%. Around 65% is the current insourced manufacturing, and outsourced is 35%.
Great. And sir, if I may just squeeze one more question. In terms of consumer durables, there has been strong margin improvement. So can you call out what led to this improvement, and how has water heaters done this quarter?
So Ram, you want to take this proceeding?
Yeah.
Yeah. So I think as far as durables is concerned, there is a moderate improvement in margin. We seem to come up to our long-term margin level, which used to be pre-COVID. The margin lag is fundamentally because of slower pricing pass-through. So I think that's the background and context. Water heaters' growth has been muted, fundamentally because of delayed - what I would say - monsoon progress. Sorry, delayed summer progress, and the extension of summer has resulted in delayed onset of the winter season. So the selling has not happened yet. So that is the context to that.
Okay, so because I was under the impression that water heaters in the industry have done well, because peers have reported comparatively stronger numbers than on water heaters.
The geography mix of business is different from company to company, and maybe in case some of the peers have reported strong growth in water heaters, then it may be the case, but fundamentally, because we don't have access to segments and performance of peers, our product performance of peers, but my sense is that because of delayed summer onset, because we've seen much stronger growth in summer categories than what we would typically expect, and we have a moderate growth in water heaters.
Understood. So thank you so much. I'll get back in the Q4.
Just one more point. I think just to say that some of the other anecdotal evidence of slowness in the market is the kind of pricing that also we are witnessing, competitive pricing we are witnessing. So it's not only the summer sale being strong in the early part of this quarter, but it is also the kind of pricing that's witnessed in the category. So these are indicative of the pressures that the winter products are facing.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much. I'll get back in the Q.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rahul Agarwal from Ikigai Asset Managers. Please go ahead.
Hi. Very good afternoon, and wish you all a very happy Diwali. Firstly, just in your view, Mithun, versus expectations and how to actually find out, it looks like it's obviously a very strong quarter. But when I see growth, it's basically segment one higher than two, and then segment two higher than three. Ideally, we would want that to reverse, right? We want Durables to do better and followed by electrical, followed by electronics. Any thoughts in terms of how do you look at growth going forward? And specifically on electrical, specifically on electrical, sorry, that electronics and Durables you explained what really happened in the quarter. Any color on electrical demand and supply? That will be helpful.
Yeah. Yeah. Mithun, can I take this?
Yeah, yeah. Take it.
Yeah. Yeah. So I think let me take up the Consumer Durables part first. So fundamentally, there is some pressure on water heaters, and there is some pressure on, if I may say, kitchen, right? So kitchen continues to grow slower than the rest of the categories. So I think these two categories have depressed our growth in this segment. I think one more thing is certain regions like East, for example, for us was flat last quarter because some of the sales came tail-ended because of cash flow issues, because the walk-ins into the market were slow, mainly because of weather. So some sales may have slided forward also, but we'll have to take it into the next quarter. So fundamentally, no concern on Consumer Durables. Consumer Durables demand is healthy.
I think water heaters, we feel that the demand is weak, and maybe some companies are getting better business than some others. Right now, September quarter is all about selling. It's all about sentiment. But in South, what happens by September, we start to see some uptake because it's the tail-end of monsoon, and the weather is starting to get cold there. So not evidencing that is indicative to us of some challenges with winter, but we expect delayed winter and the long winter maybe running later into January also. So that's the background and context on this. The second part on the electrical color. So I think Mithun was talking about 1% to 1.5% gross margin improvement progress that we have to do. Some part of it is also connected with the margin erosion, which is happening because commodity prices have been fluctuating in wires.
We had what I would say couple prices dropping at some stage in second quarter, and we have to pass through, and we had to take some inventory which is alright. So there is a bit of margin pressure on wire last quarter, but this will disappear fundamentally because the pricing pass-through is far more efficient in electrical categories as compared to consumer durables. So no concern on that, but just to paint that color that you were looking for. And as far as obviously, whenever there is a price reduction, there is a bit of what I would say downside that happens in sales. So naturally, the wire sales should be softer, and I'm sure you would have heard this commentary from other wires and cables company. Otherwise, I think it's a business as usual as far as the electrical product segment is concerned.
Anything on the pumps, switches, switchgears? Anything on that? Any specific trends?
Ram, you want to take this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think switches and switchgears, we continue to get double-digit growth broadly on the switches and switchgears portfolio as a whole. I think we are witnessing reasonably normal demand. Maybe one of them is higher in one quarter versus the other, but there are no challenges there. As far as the pumps is concerned, I think we've had good growth for some time, but I think we'll have to wait and see. The monsoon has been strong, and water tables would have risen up, and how that will affect demand, both in terms of type of pumps and the geography and how it will impact business. I think that's something that we will have to wait and see because once the water table goes up, maybe the pump needs or the replacement needs can be lower sometime in the short term.
Got it. And secondly, on Sunflame, how was the quarter versus your own internal expectations, and what is the outlook on this business? It's been about seven, eight quarters. Just wanted to understand when do we see growth in the top line.
That's a deep background and context, right? It took us about four, five months, maybe six months to put a new operating team into Sunflame. Sunflame, when we acquired, was very thinly staffed as an entity, and it took us about five to six months to put a management team on ground, right? The management team is well-settled, and operational control is something that we have established well, and critical financial control systems, including SAP and adjacent systems to SAP and all implementation is out of the way. Now, coming to the revenue and the margin side of the business, gross margins are well intact as far as Sunflame is concerned. Coming to the top line part of it, there are a couple of challenges there. I think the modern trade and RSS business and even e-com business, right? So they have some longer preparation time.
The way we run our e-commerce business, we run it directly with inventory from our warehouses, and as opposed to the way Sunflame does it, where they would do it through an intermediary, so we have transitioned the Sunflame e-commerce system into V-Guard, and it has taken quite some time for us because there were a number of technology solutions which were required to be put in place. We also needed to have the platforms to be able to make modifications to control. Some of it requires to be done out of overseas, so we've lost some time in that transition, but I think this is now in place and operational, including new warehouses, because again, all the warehouses have to be registered for operation.
So I think that business has been under a bit of stress until this transition could be executed, but now this is out of the way, and we do hope in the upcoming three to four quarters the business will progressively pick up and move forward. Similarly, modern trade RSS, I think it requires the portfolio required that product refresh. Cycle times for refresh are long. It takes close to 12 months to 15 months, and these actions are out of the way. And that, again, should help us going forward into the future. GT business has seen decent growth and better growth than what we have witnessed for the kitchen industry as a whole. So GT is getting better and is growing. CSD CPC, some challenges there. CPC transition, I think the benefits that CPC customers enjoy have now been extended to CPC consumers.
They've had the transition period for implementing technology changes, and that's impacted our business partly or significantly last quarter and to some degree this quarter also. But that will, again, recover going forward. There have been some changes in CSD in terms of classification and way of doing business for some of our categories. So CSD orders have been slow this quarter, and that's reflecting in the overall number also. So that broadly to give you a channel-wise picture, I think the fundamentals are intact. Gross margins are good. The fundamentals are intact. Work has happened on strengthening our product offerings, and we have initiated work in terms of building, developing, and delivering a new long-term strategy for kitchen for Sunflame and V-Guard. So we remain hopeful and confident about the future of the business. But fundamentally, the challenges that impact the overall kitchen market, they are also touching Sunflame.
Sunflame traditionally used to grow at about 4%. If you look at the long-term growth, it used to grow at about 4% compared to the industry growth of 11%-12%. This context may also be kept in mind.
Should we see growth in second half on Sunflame on top line?
I think, yeah, business should start to grow. I think it will also depend on so I think the GT will definitely continue to grow, right? The other three channels, there are actions which have landed, which are in flight, and some are externally driven like CSD and CPC, which is externally driven by the channel. So I think predicting what's happening in those three areas may be a bit of a challenge. Probably even e-commerce, I think, should be okay because we have completed what needs to be done, and we should start to see results there. So I would say GT and e-commerce here. I think the other two pieces, there is some uncertainty, and in some time, we will know. Maybe by end of next quarter for sure, we'll be able to give a better color on the upward trajectory.
But the CSD business, there are years it corrects, and there are years it goes. So it's dependent on some of the system changes and other things that happen internally also.
Thank you so much for answering my questions. Have a great day one. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Keyur Pandya from ICICI Prudential Life Insurance. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Sir, on the electronics side, we have seen margin improvement, and earlier you have talked about some initiatives to improve the margin as well. So in that backdrop, should we see current year's margin as one-off because of the exceptional growth, or this is more of a steady-state margin on an annual basis bearing the quarterly anomalies? That is the first question on electronics, and the related question is, I mean, with your lower share of batteries and the plant coming up for battery as well as this ramp-up in the solar rooftops, how should we think about the growth of this category in near to medium term? That is the first question.
See, electronics margin has grown, I would say, both because of volume as well as manufacturing. So for example, for stabilizers, inverters, and for batteries, so for these three categories, we have put up factories. The stabilizer and inverter factory has been online for the last 15 to 18 months, whereas the battery factory is new. So some of the increases we are seeing because of the insourcing into manufacturing. Some of the increases we are also seeing because of better season. So if the summer season is good, in a year when summer is very strong, we will be giving out lesser discounts and all that for those kinds of products. So that's also one of the reasons margins are improved in electronics.
Electronics as a category should grow something like 12%-14% because electronics has stabilizers, which is slightly slower growing, whereas both inverters and solar products are fast growing. Solar products, the base is a little small, but they are growing into a large part of electronics.
Okay. So the second question is on the overall general demand side. There are mixed trends about demand. Some are talking about consumer slowdown, whereas your growth, as well as some other consumer categories, are growing decent enough growth. So how has been the demand situation for our categories? And in context of V-Guard, so basically on low base, we can grow faster. Just how do you see your growth trajectory, say, next one, one and a half years?
So V-Guard is fortunate to have a very diversified portfolio. So we are straddling across three different parts. So here you can really see there is stress on the consumer durable side. Consumer durable sales growth has been only about 10%. The growth in sales in electronics is primarily driven by weather, and that is an external factor. So that is probably not indicative of the general consumer demand. There is definitely slowness in the market. This quarter was one of the slowest quarters we experienced for many categories. So although as a portfolio, V-Guard has done well, there are definitely pockets of slowness. We did face a lot of slowness in the market, and that is we are also feeling whatever the sentiment is echoed by the general CPG industry in India. So there seems to be a lack of spending, and all these things are true.
But the electronics segment is not really dependent on that. It's more dependent on weather. And electricals have done reasonably well, primarily because there has been some price growth in especially wires and cables. So that's another reason it has done well. But generally, we are not. That we are also cautious about the environment when we go forward into the next quarter.
Understood. So just last question. So on the employee cost trajectory, we have seen 20% growth in one year and from the relatively higher base from previous year as well. So I mean, where do you see it settling? There are some more gaps to be filled. So just your thoughts on employee cost. Thank you. And all the best.
Yeah. Some of that increase is explained by expansion of the manufacturing subsidiaries. So as new plants are coming in, that team is getting larger. There have also been manpower additions in Sunflame during the last 12 months. So a significant amount of management team has come in. So like-for-like, it would be a 13%-14% kind of increase, which is pretty much the annual increment and some normal headcount additions that happen.
So that should normalize when all plants are commissioned probably by end of this year.
Yeah. I mean, next year, we'll have this one as debate. So then we increase the debate. Yeah. 13%-14%, we can expect. Is the normal growth of employee cost. Should be the normal growth of employee cost.
Noted. Thanks a lot. All the best.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, in order to ensure that the management is able to address questions from all participants, please limit yourself to two questions per participant. The next question is from the line Naushad Chaudhary from Aditya Birla Sun Life Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thanks for the opportunity, and apology if I'm asking any repetitive questions. I've missed some of the parts. Just wanted a clarification again on the Sunflame margin. What specific reason was for the dip in the margin, and are we done with the restructuring with this business, or is there more impact yet to come in the coming quarters?
Ram, you want to take a look also?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, as I said in the call earlier, right, the gross margin is the same. Okay? The margin that we are referring to is the EBITDA margin, which in this quarter is looking lower than the previous quarter. So there are a couple of reasons for that. One component in that is the lower Sunflame sales because of lack of top-line growth. Naturally, the flow on that will reflect on the bottom line. So the CSD channel and some of the e-commerce and MT, RSS channel, where our actions are yet to fully fall in place, the growth impact of that is also reflecting at the EBITDA level, right? The gross margin is the same, but since the top-line growth is not there, it's not reflecting in the EBITDA. That's one part. The other part is we are also booking.
We are doing strategic interventions in Sunflame, consulting interventions in Sunflame, and those parts are also booked in that head. That is the second part of it. Naturally, that will reflect as a variance in EBITDA compared to the same period last year. The third part is we have been adding people, and that incremental cost because of that is also reflecting here. Coming to the progress on the integration, I think the financial integration and integration of financial systems is already complete. Yeah. Work is underway for designing the roadmap for operational integration, and I think in three to six months' time, both long-term strategy and operational integration roadmap will be in place. I do not expect negative impact on the financials of Sunflame consequent to any recommendation that may come from these two interventions, which are underway.
We should be able to maintain that, or we should be able to find fuel for growth coming from those interventions.
What was the consulting fees in this quarter? And was this in lump sum for the entire year, or will we see that cost in the coming quarters as well? And the margin of this quarter should we expect to remain similar in coming quarters? What is your outlook?
Yeah, yeah. I don't have data on that really at hand, but I think it would have maybe a 1%-2% incremental impact in this quarter. And some impact will come from each of those three or four factors that I talked about. Yes, the consulting impact maybe there for another quarter or two. That is one part of it. Second is, I think hopefully margins for next quarter should be better than the current quarter.
And this was the first quarter for the consulting cost, right?
Maybe, maybe not. I think maybe, yes. Maybe, maybe not. I think some things on financial integration were done even early. So it may not exactly be the case.
Second question.
What I'm saying is that we have an incremental for this quarter compared to the same period last year.
Yes. And second question on the.
I think for you to know, I think it's important for you to focus on gross margin. Our gross margins are maintained. These are one-off actions. Project gets over, cost gets over, and booking for that gets over. After that, it will stop, so.
So double-digit growth, you expect to come back in coming quarter, right, for this piece of business?
I think it's a function of how the industry will also grow. The industry growth also has to recover. As I was telling you, when the industry used to grow, if you take a seven, eight-year view of Sunflame, then the industry used to grow at 11%-12%. Sunflame used to grow at about 4%, right? So yes, I think Sunflame growth should recover. But most importantly, the industry growth has to recover, right? I think from whatever we have seen in the market, industry growth is flat to negative now, at least for almost two years now, yeah.
Sir, past growth comparison of industry versus Sunflame, are you indicating any inherent issue with that? Now the portfolio is with you.
It's not an issue with the brand. It's an issue. It is how the business was managed for value. Okay? So it's a very strong brand with very high profitability. And what I would say, strong cash flow, right? And that's what was prioritized, right? So now when we are driving growth, we are adding people, and we are supporting investment in product, in customer service, and all of that. That's going to have some consequence. That's one part of it, right? That's on the margin side. On the growth side, I'm just saying that the overall industry has to grow, right? If the industry is not growing, even if you grow at 10%-12% in a flat industry, it's like growing at 15%-20%, right? So that's the point I'm making.
I think for us to get the kind of growth that you're talking about, the kitchen industry has to start to grow, okay?
Yes. Second question on the wire business outlook, sir. What we experience, a few of your peers have experienced very good double-digit growth, and they have been quite excited on this revival of wire business growth. What is your view and outlook on this business, sir?
So wire, even I think we have had decent growth. So we have had a double-digit, healthy growth. But see, wire, I think it's not you have to look at our four-quarter period because you may have a lot of fluctuations in prices and stuff like that. For example, this quarter, I think there has been also price growth. So although there has been a healthy growth, partly it is because of price and partly because of volume. Yeah.
All right. I'll come back in Q&A. I have a few more. Thank you so much. All the best for the future.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sonali Salgaonkar from Jefferies India. Please go ahead.
So thank you for the opportunity. And firstly, wishing you and team a very happy Diwali and festive season ahead. So my question is pertaining a little bit to the industry scenario right now. Now that we are nearing Diwali and post-Navratri, how, in your experience, has been the festive season? How has it panned out so far? What are the channel inventory levels across most of your product categories? And has there been any significant pricing action in the last six months or H1 of FY25?
Okay. So regarding the Diwali sentiment and the sales leading up to Diwali, we have actually seen pretty strong traction in the month of October. But there is a huge caveat because last year's Diwali was in November, and this year it's in the last day of October. So it is possible that some of the sales could have got preponed. So we will have to wait for the quarter to be over to give you a full picture. But initial indications are encouraging. But again, like I said, it could be that last year, September was low because some of the last year's Diwali sales happened in November as well. Regarding pricing action, Ram or Sudarshan?
Yes. I mean, pricing actions have been in the first half. There have been some small movements in input costs, and then we have covered them through prices. It's across categories, across various categories, ranging from 1%-3% in various cases. I'm talking about how much has landed. We may have announced more, but this is what has landed in the first half. It is just about to cover some input cost movements.
Understood. And channel inventories?
I don't see any. We are not sitting with any huge inventories in the channel. Nothing abnormal. Like I said, we had a very good Q1. So we ended Q1 with a very low inventory, both on the company side as well as the channel. And even now, it has not ballooned to any unreasonable degree. It is fairly normal.
Understood. So my second question is a bit strategic in nature. Now, your gross margins. This is, I think, the seventh consecutive quarter wherein we are observing that your gross margin has improved year on year. Now it's almost nearing 36%. So you did mention some of the reasons behind this in your earnings presentation, but a bit more clarity on that. And secondly, where do you expect the gross margins to settle down, say, in the near term?
So I think one thing here to understand is earlier, we had a manufacturing and outsourcing mix, and today we are at a different mix. So what happens when you manufacture is that actually your gross margins appear higher because some of the costs, the factory costs, like outsourced manpower, freight, some of these things are sitting in the indirects. Whereas when we outsource the everything, it's sitting in COGS. So there is some 1-1.5% difference from how you were looking at gross margin.
Sonali, it's like this. Even if we adjust for that, about 1%-1.5% is not real improvement. If it's shifting from one bank to the other, you will still see that the gross margin has improved in the last two, three years. But then also recognize we're coming out of a low point. Okay? While gross margins have been improving, we are happy with that. But like Nitin said earlier, there is still another 1% gap in margins we need to fix.
Yeah. So if I look at FY19 and where we would like to be, we are still around 1% lower than like-for-like basis. Because like I said, today, some of the costs are sitting in indirects.
Understood. And last question from my side regarding your non-South versus South mix. So we see that your non-South is growing handsomely as compared to your South yet again this quarter. Could you help us understand the margin profiles of non-South versus South? Have the gross margins converged, or is South still higher than non-South?
So I think margin-wise, today, there is no difference between South and Non-South. We are following pretty much Pan-Indian pricing policy. So if you look at the gross margin, because of this more and more sale coming from Non-South, my guess is there will be absolutely no change because the gross margins are almost identical. So there is no real difference in terms of pricing and gross margin. Of course, in South India, with like seven or eight branches, we are doing 2,000 whatever, 600-odd crores with an average revenue of 300-400 crores per branch. Whereas in Non-South, we have another 17-18 branches doing the similar kind of a number. So in that sense, the overhead cost is still high. The throughput is not as efficient as South. So in that way, you will see some changes in terms of bottom line, like EBITDA margins.
But gross margins are all the same.
Sure. Sorry. So one last question. So any particular product category which you would like to highlight wherein you are seeing a little excessive competition as compared to the other categories?
So I think competition is competition, and hyper-competition is something that this industry has. It is part and parcel of this industry. It has been going on at least for the last seven to eight years, and now we have kind of used to it. So I wouldn't like to say it doesn't matter. I mean, for example, like Ram mentioned, kitchen is going through a very tough environment for the last 18-24 months. So we have significant competition both in online and especially online. So if you look at our E-commerce business, there is significant price competition happening in kitchen, water heaters. So that means that brands are desperate to get sales, and they are ready to go to any extent in terms of discounts. So these are the signs when certain categories are weak. But having said that, there is competition in almost everything.
If you take any category today, there are 15 to 20 brands in any of these categories. Of course, not everyone is active in everything, but just saying it's a biased market.
Understood, sir. Thank you and all the best.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Naushad Chaudhary from Aditya Birla Sun Life Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity again. On our investment in Gegadyne, what is the kind of rationale of this investment, and what kind of tech support we get from them, and what do we expect in the future?
Okay. Ram, you want to take this?
Yeah. So fundamentally, our investment in Gegadyne, we were attracted it's a deep tech company, and we were attracted by the potential of that technology in terms of its ability to create disruptive value, right? And fundamentally, we have been supporting them to enable technology development, right? So this is to convert potential technology idea into a viable product. So mainly, our support has been towards setting up the pilot plant and putting in place systems, processes, helping them put in place systems and processes to convert what would be a, what I would say, an idea into a large-scale product, right? So this is the objective of our support, yeah? And this is what we've been working on with Gegadyne.
Any technological support which we have outsourced from them which is helping in our business?
I think this is the next generation technology product, right? And I think that when they get into commercial production, that stage, we should be able to source batteries from them, which we should be able to launch into market, right? But that would require a commercial plant to be put in place. Right now, they are engaged in building, what I would say, products through pilot plant to establish proof of concept and to supply to customers for customer validation and certification before they can go out for mass production. So at this stage, no, no support. We have not received any support from them. We are supporting them.
All right. Thank you so much. That's it.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Mukesh with an individual investor. Please go ahead. Mr. Mukesh, your line has been unmuted. Please go ahead with your question. Mr. Mukesh, your line has been unmuted. Please go ahead with your question.
Thank you for the opportunity. Just one question. What is our capacity utilization on various product segments, and what is our CapEx plan for next two years?
Yeah. Sudarshan, you want to take this?
Yeah. Our CapEx plans will be in the region of about INR 100 crores a year, roughly. In terms of capacity utilization, yes, it varies plant to plant, and some of them are seasonal, some of them are around the year. So difficult to put a number. But just to say that we will sort of invest in CapEx and capacity utilization before it becomes a bottleneck.
Okay. Okay. Thank you.
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Natasha Jain from Nirmal Bang. Please go ahead. Ms. Natasha Jain, your line has been unmuted. Please go ahead with your question.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thanks for the opportunity once again. Most of my questions have been answered. Just one follow-up on Sunflame. So in the last quarter, I believe you've given a guidance that approximately INR 6 billion is kind of a revenue from my clockbook kitchen appliances, wherein INR 2 billion would be somewhere for Gegadyne and INR 3 billion probably for Sunflame. So can you just tell us if there is any change in this guidance?
Sorry, can you again repeat the numbers? Is this breaking up? Are you talking about rupees, billion rupees?
Yes, sir.
Can you just repeat that because it was not audible? Yeah.
Sir, no. If you could just give us a newer guidance or any guidance on kitchen appliances as a category and bifurcation in terms of what Gegadyne is expected to do versus Sunflame.
See, I mean, it's like this. Sunflame is doing about 60-odd crore run rate in a year, and this is with the depressed orders from CSD. 60-odd crores per quarter, and this is at a time when CSD has cut down orders significantly. Okay? We have expected to make about 75-80 CSD orders that are in the normal shape. So that sort of gives you a sense of size. And Gegadyne kitchen business, we are running at whatever 200-220. And we would have expected that to become bigger this year, but we know that kitchen has been facing some severe headwinds.
All right. So just to iterate the number, you said 220 per quarter for Gegadyne, right?
No, no. That is the.
No, I think INR 220 crores for Gegadyne per year last year, and Sunflame was about INR 240 crores for the full year and this year, it's looking like both of them are flat. That means there is not much of growth because of the challenges in the kitchen environment.
Understood, sir. Thank you so much. That's helpful, and happy to help.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants that you may press star and one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Vibhu Jain, who is an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Hello. Yeah. Am I audible?
Yes. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Congrats on a good set of numbers and Diwali wishes to you. My question is slightly on the strategy side and long-term oriented. Just wanted to understand the next five years in which of our categories are we trying to enhance our competence and any new categories that we are planning to enter into new geographies, channels, etc. Just wanted some information on that.
Okay. Regarding new entry, we won't be commenting because it's confidential info. Ram, you want to take the other one regarding the.
Yeah. Yeah. I think fundamentally, the growth trajectory across different product categories will remain. Obviously, consumer durable categories will continue to grow, and our focus will be to improve scale and improve EBITDA margin, right? Gross margins are reasonably decent, so there is some scope to improve them. But I think scale-up of the kitchen business sorry, scale-up of the consumer durable business will be key to also the EBITDA margin objective realization, right? I think we will also be trying to drive to improve our presence in the electrical segment, particularly categories like switches and switchgears, I think, where we have a lot of headroom to grow. So I think these are going to be our growth categories.
I think inverter and battery, I think here, again, with the inroads that we have made in manufacturing, we believe should be able to bring required competitiveness to this category for stronger growth, right? So that's how we would see that, right? Stabilizer and wires and cables will move more or less in line with market, right? So strong growth is going to basically come from consumer durables, yeah? Switches and switchgears and inverter battery, yeah?
Sure, sir. So I just wanted to understand from an end-use case standpoint, where do we see ourselves in segments like data centers and solar generation, rooftop solar, some of the new up-and-coming use cases in the power sector?
No, I think as far as rooftops are concerned, yeah, I think we are participating in that. We will see how this evolves and grows, right? Because numbers outside are quite ambitious, and we'd like to see how they pan out. I think the trajectory is good, and I think we've called that out in our report, yeah? We've, as of now, not developed a very strong point of view on how far we will reach with some of these, and as far as data centers are concerned, we are not into it, yeah? We are into only the B2C part of this, not the B2B part.
Okay. Sure, sure, sir. Thank you.
Thank you. Is there any further questions? We have reached the end of our Q&A session. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Yeah. So thank you all for taking our time to join our earnings call. I would like to thank Deepak Agarwal and the team at JM Financial for hosting this call. On behalf of the V-Guard family, I would like to wish all of you a very happy Diwali and a prosperous New Year. We look forward to interacting with all of you in the next quarter. Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of JM Financial, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your line.