Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to RHI Magnesita India Limited Q4 FY2025 earnings conference call, hosted by Asian Markets Securities. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode, and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing Star, then Zero on your touch-tone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Manav from Asian Markets Securities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Thank you, Manav. Good afternoon, everyone. On behalf of Asian Markets Securities, we welcome you all to Q4 FY2025 earnings conference call of RHI Magnesita India Limited. We have with us today Mr. Pramod Sagar, Chairman, MD and CEO; Mr. Azim Syed, CFO and Chief Investor Relations Officer. Now, I request Mr. Pramod, sir, to take us through the overview of the quarterly result, and then maybe we can begin the Q&A session. Over to you, sir.
Thank you very much, Manav. Good evening, everyone. Welcome to RHI Magnesita India's earnings call. As we draw the curtain on yet another dynamic financial year, we do so with a sense of accomplishment. FY25 has been a period of challenges, transformation, and forward momentum, not just for our organization, but for our industry and our customers. Today, I'm pleased to share with you an overview of our performance, along with a broader outlook on the macroeconomic and industrial forces shaping our future. At RHI Magnesita India, we have demonstrated operational resilience amidst shifting market dynamics and geopolitical uncertainties. In Q4 financial year 25, we continue our steady focus on innovation, customer engagement, and agile execution, delivering consistent value creation for our stakeholders. Financially, we recorded a total revenue of INR 3,675 crores. Our efforts in strategic initiatives like iron-making and flow control are delivering growth.
However, we see a commoditization in the refractory market. Let me briefly reflect on the evolving landscape of the core industries that shape our business. India's steel sector remains a cornerstone of economic growth, with domestic demand expected to rise in FY2026, fueled by infrastructure investment, the National Logistics Policy, and Make in India initiative with export of 12% import duty restrictions. Globally, however, the market shows divergence. Chinese exports have pressured prices, while policy changes in the U.S., European Union, and United Kingdom have created trade uncertainties. Domestically, India's push to expand steel capacity to 300 million tons by 2030 aligns with our mission to support the industry with efficient refractory solutions. All the planned capacity additions in our steel customers align with RHI Magnesita's diverse product offerings.
The Indian cement industry is also on a strong footing, with demand projected to grow 6%-8% in FY2026, backed by an increase in government CapEx of about 10%, driven by affordable housing, urban development, and higher projects. Cement prices also saw a lift in FY25 after margin squeeze in the entire year. However, we are optimistic that this will change due to infrastructure-led demand. RHI Magnesita is the only refractory player in India, delivering end-to-end solutions for the cement industry. Nevertheless, structural changes like overcapacity and pricing pressure highlight the need for efficiency in the end-customer market. As a critical enabler of economic growth, refractory will continue to benefit from robust demand. India's refractory market is projected to reach $4.5 billion by 2030, faster than earlier estimates, driven by material innovations and organic growth.
We are proud to support this momentum with increasing traction across high-growth sectors, not only steel and cement, but in industrial applications like glass, ceramics, and renewables, reflecting our expanding industrial footprint. However, the announced overcapacity expansion in India, coupled with Chinese import of refractory materials, is becoming a systematic issue resulting in price erosion. In light of these industry dynamics, our strategy at RHI Magnesita India remains anchored in five key pillars. Number one, strategic initiative. We will continue to invest and grow in iron-making and flow control to gain further market share. Number two, innovation and technology. We have scaled up our R&D initiatives and embracing digitalization to develop next-generation refractory solutions. This will lead us to be cost-competitive and local for local production to transfer technologies from groups. We will also leverage our digital technologies through our 4PRO offerings to our customers. Number three, sustainability.
Our initiatives are economically sustainable, aligned with India's and our global group's net-zero commitments. We will be investing CapEx to this effect to maximize our cost-competitiveness through our circular economy initiatives. Number four, operational excellence. Our launched operational excellence system has already delivered results not only in our factories but also in the acquired entities. We will take it to the next level of maturity to improve productivity in the coming year. Number five, safety initiative. Our target is nothing less than zero accident, and we have developed strong programs to pursue it. In our continued commitment towards safety, we have launched seven life-saving rules across all our production facilities and sites, not limited to India but global level also. Apart from this, we have launched a program to increase our prices to pass on the input cost. We should see some of the benefits flowing in the future quarters.
As we look ahead, we remain confident in the underlying strength of our business and industries we serve. Our long-term vision is clear: to be the most reliable partner for refractory solutions in India's industrial growth stories. In today's board meeting, we have done some additions in our board. I believe the recent addition to our board will strongly. Strong industrial background will be true value generation for our shareholders and our company. We announced to consider the appointment of Mr. Priyabrata Panda, Managing Director of TRL Krosaki Refractories Limited, as an independent director for a period of next five years. We have also appointed Mr. Azim Syed, our Chief Financial Officer, RHI Magnesita India Limited, as a full-time director and Chief Financial Officer for a period of next five years. We also did the reappointment of Mr.
Nazim Sheikh, former Managing Director, The Sandur Manganese & Iron Ores Limited, as an independent director for his second term of five years. On behalf of the entire leadership team, I thank you for your continued trust and support. Together, let us build a stronger, more sustainable future. With that, I will now hand over to our CFO, Azim Syed, who will take us through the detailed financial performance of Q4 and financial year 2025.
Thanks, Pramodji. Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us for RHI Magnesita India's earnings call. Let me begin by acknowledging the complex macroenvironment that has influenced our performance over the year. FY2025 was marked by intensified competition in the refractory market and rising input costs, especially in raw materials and our inability to pass through these costs. These factors, alongside continued commoditization in the industry, tested the resilience of our business model. For the full year FY2025, we recorded a consolidated revenue from operations of INR 3,675 crores, a 2.8% decline year-on-year with flat shipments. EBITDA came in at INR 505 crores, with margin softening to 13.7% from 14.7% in FY2024, mainly due to pressures on realization rates, higher raw material costs, and inflation-driven increases in employee benefits. Our profit after tax stood at 203 crores compared to a loss of FY2024.
This turnaround was supported by disciplined execution, tight cost controls, and the absence of exceptional items that impacted the previous year. Q4 performance was seasonally lower, with revenue declining 9.7% sequentially to INR 919 crores. This was largely expected due to the completion of one-time projects in Q3 and the typical slowdown in the cement demand at the end of the season. Our EBITDA in Q4 was INR 94 crores, with margins at 10.2%, and the PAC for the quarter was INR 36 crores. Despite these challenges, we achieved significant progress in managing our working capital and cash flow. Through focused operational discipline, we reduced our net debt by 53% during the year, bringing the net debt-to-EBITDA ratio down to 0.3x from 0.6x. The company also saw an improved debtor-turnover ratio through targeted interventions in our trade receivables.
As Pramodji mentioned in detail, our end markets, particularly steel and cement, experienced margin pressures in FY2025, with EBITDA contraction in our end-customer market by 1%-2%. Rising low-cost steel imports and competitive pricing in refractories impacted the realization rate. However, medium-term demand fundamentals remained intact, with domestic steel capacity poised to expand and infrastructure-led cement demand expected to recover in FY2026. Looking ahead, we are cautiously optimistic. We are experiencing an increased growth for FY2026, coupled with margin improvement. This will be driven by stronger domestic demand from steel and cement sectors, cost optimization through recipe rationalization, recycling, raw material savings through strategic sourcing initiatives. The third one would be continuous focus on market share in the public sector unit segments. The fourth one being targeted price increases in targeted areas to reflect the cost pass-through.
We have also earmarked INR 150 crores in CapEx for the coming year to build and execute our strategic pillars, as highlighted by Pramodji. In closing, while FY2025 was a challenging year, it also underscored the resilience of our business and the effectiveness of our strategic priorities. We remain committed to delivering long-term value to our stakeholders by focusing on cost discipline, innovation, and sustainable growth. Thank you again for your continued trust and support. We now open the floor to welcome any questions.
Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch-tone telephone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the question queue, you may press star and two. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we'll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. If you wish to ask any questions, you may press star and one now. We have a first question from the line of Chetan Doshi, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Yeah, good evening, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to ask the question. Now, the first question is that we say that we are market leaders in India, but the results for the quarter and for the entire year, it doesn't reflect the leadership qualities and the product portfolio what we are into. And second question is, in spite of big growth, how come there is almost 50% increase in employee benefits? Even if people don't perform in the organization, you intend to increase the benefits by almost 50%?
Okay, take the first one. I'll take it.
Chetan, thank you very much for your question. You are going by quarter numbers also. I think we are the undisputed leader. There's no doubt about that. And our fundamentals are very strong. We are working on many areas. We differentiate ourselves from our competition. One of our competition has shown tremendous growth in one quarter with a serious dip in margins. So if the competition, as I said, overcapacity going into the market with whatever price they are offering, the end user is offering, and they are accepting the order just to enter the market, should we go into that rat race and roll our margin further just to grab market share? I don't think this is a right decision. Being a market leader, it is our responsibility to remain a healthy competitor, guide the industry also to remain healthy. Otherwise, this refractory industry will die.
So it was a very strategic decision. We will not go by this rat race of people who are entering into new markets. We have a very clear thought process, and if you see, we also enter in iron-making area with healthy margins. My margins are as good as my other established products. I have not entered the market with throwaway prices to erode the market or just grab the order. We lost a lot of order because I don't want to get order at 4%- 5% margin with less than 0% EBITDA, so that was a strategic decision we took. I think that is a right decision, but you have your own opinion, and I respect your opinion.
No, no, no. Sorry to interrupt, but you see, we have a much larger portfolio compared to any competitor which is there into the Indian market. So what my question is, your marketing team or the people in the organization, they are not able to exploit the market in full capacity. Otherwise, that leadership is lacking. Second thing is, since the last couple of quarters, I'm highlighting the last two, three days as far as it is a compulsion to declare the results. So we come up with a date and say, "Okay, these are our results." There is a leadership quality. We are living in a digital world, and all the records see your parent company.
I am really upset with the way on the approach of RHI Magnesita India operations, wherein your parent company is, if you see their write-up, they are very clear what they want, and they are into much larger acquisitions, and they operate worldwide. Everything, your Stefan Borgas also is very clear that this year the margins will be so and so. Even the guidance given, it is very near to what he says. We have excuses. This time, the raw material has gone up. This time, the employee cost has gone up. This time, there was some problem in the dispatches. This customer canceled the order. See, these types of excuses are not good for the organization. We have to deliver. I think after the acquisition, almost more than one year is over. Sorry, it's a lengthy question, but these are the points.
Next quarter, I expect you to come out with the results like what other MNCs do.
Again, I emphasize when you are talking about global company or Stefan Borgas' statements, we are fully aligned with that. And we are driven by the philosophy, the strategy of the global leadership. Okay? So they are fully aligned with what we are doing in India. And they are fully convinced that this is the way to do. And let's not drag this. As a shareholder, you have all the right to hear your frustration, and this is well taken.
It's not frustration, Pramodji. See, 28th of the month, which two days are left for closing the accounts. We are doing it just two days back. Where is the leadership here? Second thing is that when you have such a big portfolio to operate, the presentation lacks highlighting the features with these points. We have really gained over competition. Last time also, and just 15 minutes back, it is uploaded. For the sake of doing it, it is done. You can keep on-call day after tomorrow also.
So you are thinking our competition is gaining margins. Is it your analysis?
No, no, no, no, Pramodji. You are telling it wrongly. See, my question is, we have such a big portfolio to operate in India. We have the backing of our parent company. We have the market.
Have you gone through the presentation? Have you gone through the presentation? How many products we are bringing to India with the latest technology innovation? Have you gone through that? I don't think you have gone through the presentation properly.
But 10 minutes back, you upload, and you expect the entire presentation to be gone through. It is uploaded. You see the time.
That is there. We have uploaded it late. But you could have asked the question 15 minutes later and gone through the presentation while you are the first one to ask the question. You should have gone through the presentation while in remote, and other people can talk, and then you come back, and still, I'm requesting you, please go through the presentation and jump back again. Okay?
Let me answer the Employee Benefits question. For the full year, we basically have a 2% increase. For the quarter, we have a 16% increase. There were two major reasons. One basically was the inflation correction that we normally do, along with some of the government-mandated increases that have been sought. For example, in states like Odisha, it was expected to increase more than the inflation. Yes. This thing and the second thing, yeah, the second thing basically was that we have harmonized our HR policies across all the three legal entities now. So for example, the leaves and gratuities arrangement, we had different policies of the acquired entities. So this is basically completed now.
Okay. I will again come in the queue. Thanks.
Thank you.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, if you wish to ask any questions, you may press star and one. Anyone who wishes to ask a question, you may press star and one now. We have our next question from the line of Suraj from Asian Markets Securities. Please go ahead.
Hello.
Yes, we can hear you.
Sir, thank you for the opportunity. Revenue declined by 9% QQ and 2% YOI in Q2 FY2025, while our EBITDA margin fell sharply to 10%. How much this decline is attributed to seasonal cement demand versus pricing pressure or project timing?
Mostly, it is driven by higher alumina cost. About six months back, we were buying tabular alumina, white fused alumina, in the range of INR 60,000-INR 65,000 a ton. And it went to INR 95,000 a ton. So this has a huge impact on our commodity business when it comes to cement or non-ferrous or glass or even our flow control products. So it is a main driver for the erosion of EBITDA. Apart from this, yes, there is some lever also. As I said, the competition, I don't want to take any name, but they enter the market with very, very, very, very attractive pricing. And nowadays, if an end user, whether it is a cement industry or all small players, they are looking for the price. They said, "Okay, we are not bothered about RHI Magnesita XYZ.
XYZ is giving us more than a discount on that price also. "So why should we not give them the order?" So should I also follow that? So I thought I will not follow that. So those two levers were having an impact on this EBITDA erosion. But fortunately, now alumina prices are going down. From 95, it has reached to 77 thousand. It will go down further. It has not reached to the level from where it started, but at least it is a halfway backward. So this will help us to increase our margin also in coming quarters. And also, at the same time, we are doing some product optimization also. I would say, as a leading company, as a multinational company, as a listed company in India and as London Stock Exchange, we have a very clear, transparent quality assurance system.
Our recipes may be overengineered. Maybe we are offering better products than the small players who are entering with some compromise on quality standards and all those things. We don't want to do that. We are looking at how we can offer best quality products, better quality products, where the performance speaks for itself and the life of the cement, all the other lines improve. That is our way of entering into the market. Maybe we are a bit slow. Maybe we are working on whatever innovation and R&D people are working on it. Maybe a little slow. I can accept that. But our way is right, and our vision is very clear.
Thank you. Thank you, sir.
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, if you wish to ask any questions, you may press star and one. We have our next question from the line of Gopal Agarwal from HDFC Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, sir. So I have some observation and clarification to make. So in this quarter, as compared to last quarter, we have seen other expenses have increased significantly despite our top line has come down. That is one. And second, employee expenses also high, even Q1, Q2, and YoY, despite our top line is less. So are there some one-off or can you clarify? Second point, the third question is that as we are seeing alumina prices which shot up very high, now coming back, so how much old inventory do we have? And when we can see the benefit into P&L of this? Yeah, please. Thanks.
Thank you. So I will answer the other expenses part. So basically, we had this true-up of our statutory CSR expenses that has basically seen as a higher number in the other expenses. So that has contributed to that. The second question you would take or?
Sir, how much can you quantify?
Alumina pricing, it will come after three months.
We always carry an inventory of about two months' time. So I believe July onward, we should be having this reduced price inventory in our system. And next quarter, we should see improvement in margins, for sure.
Yes.
Okay. And sir, would you like to quantify the CSR expense for the quarter and last year?
Last year, it was about INR 7 crores, INR 6.83 crores, to be very precise.
Yes.
This year, sir?
It will be almost the same. It is a combination of last three years' total profitability.
6.84 crores in the last year.
6.84% this year also. So as you see, our revenue and profitability in absolute value is the same. So if you don't look at 10.2% or so, so our profitability in absolute value remains the same. It has not eroded.
Sir, anything on the employee expense side?
So as I mentioned earlier, again, three causes. Number one is the inflation adjustment, which we normally do it in the first quarter, effective January. So this was one of the reasons. But on top of that, as you know, that in Odisha and some other places, there was a mandated increase in.
Minimum wage.
Minimum wage requirements. The second one basically was that we also had to harmonize as planned. We had basically to harmonize our leaves and gratuity policies for the acquired entities. So these are the two things that impacted our employee costs.
Okay. So can we assume this as a recurring now, or it has come into base? How do you look at it?
Absolutely. Having said that, we will also balance this with our operational excellence program to improve productivity. But yes, this is a good base for you to assume for the future.
Apart from this OES or operational excellence, we are also looking at how we can increase our productivity and reduce our manpower to some extent to mitigate this increase.
Sure. Thank you, sir. Wish you all the best.
Thank you.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Pratim Roy from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my first question is that as I attended the RHI Magnesita Global Conference call where the team has guided that the overcapacity in the Indian domestic market is a big problem for the industry in India and it can drag the growth and something like that that sounds slightly negative. So as a leader in the refractory market in the domestic side, how we can overcome this current situation to a strategic growth path in the next couple of years? That is my first question. And the second question is that you always mentioned that our EBITDA margin guidance will be around 15%. So how we can achieve that and what are the drivers that help us to achieve that?
So if you can give a broad idea on these two particular things, how top line growth will be maintained in the situation of over supply and the margin side, both, if you can give some ideas of. That would be really helpful.
I will try to give you some ideas. So one is commodity market where our competition is entering into with very aggressive pricing. We cannot stop them. Okay? The system will prevail sooner or later when they will also have a margin pressure and they will come back with reasonable pricing. So this is one part. Second is how we can differentiate from our competition.
So what we are doing is we are bringing a lot of new products into India, local for local, like a thin slab, SCN, stopper rod with different holes, cold setting mix development, random porous plug from Europe to India, chrome castable type of porous plug from Europe to India, blast furnace trough mix from Vesuvius refractory to India, Anker from Vesuvius to India, and many more products which we are bringing to India which we were not able to sell from Europe or from America because of price competitiveness. But when we will produce this in India, this new market will open up for us. Okay? So we are developing new products. We are doing optimization of many products where we think there's an opportunity we can really reduce our cost by different type of innovation and R&D activities.
So this, I think, will give us an edge over our conventional competition, and we will have a niche market type of product where we will have a margin advantage also. At the same time, we are trying to develop many products for commodity market. But probably it will take another six months or so by the time we reach out to market. So with these initiatives, I think we can turn around this. And as you said, last two, three years, I was very consistent, and you remind me also, and I'm still having a belief that 14%-15% margins are really sustainable, achievable margin, and we aspire to reach to that level. That is our internal discussion all the time how we can reach to that level, and we will reach.
We can expect that by the beginning of the second half of this financial year, I'm talking about FY2026, so we can expect this kind of margin can be achievable. Is it a fair assumption to say?
I would say you will see from July quarter, which is the second quarter, and third quarter, you will see upside from July onwards, and by third quarter, you will see the results are coming to our expectation.
Yes. Maybe, in fact, one more point. In some of these opening remarks, we also spoke about price increases as well because we believe that these input costs must be passed on. There's a very targeted program we are also delivering, which will also support us. So one, again, self-help measure, as Pramod explained in terms of targeted commodity mix price optimization. Second, the market share development with the introduction of transfer of technology. But we are also having very intense discussion with our customers on how to pass on these input costs. Hope that gives a 360-degree perspective for you.
Okay, sir. Thank you for the clarification. And I just want to have another few questions. You just mentioned that the CapEx side, you are going to invest INR 150 crores, right? So if you can give a broad idea where we are going to expand and how much we can expect margin improvement from that, and by when we can expect that would come into the book?
Whatever CapEx we are talking about, it will actually be commissioned by end of this year or beginning of next year because all these big equipment like presses, hydraulic press, autoclave. The delivery time is 10 months to 14 months. So there will come probably in next financial year the actual tangible benefits, not this year. This year, we will be spending this money, ordering, and we are doing a lot of engineering discussion and all those things, and when this will be operational commissioned, probably our productivity will go up, our manpower cost will come down because they are modern presses, not like 40-year-old Dalmia presses which are in place now. So that is the idea.
So this investment will be in this DOCL plant, right?
Mostly it will be DOCL plant. I would say 65%-70%, and the rest is RHI Magnesita plant.
Yes. We also want to talk about probably the iron-making excellence center, which you are excited about.
Yeah. That we last time also told you guys we are creating this iron-making excellence center in Jamshedpur, and again, it is a time-consuming process. We have done the trials in Europe with our raw material, with the technology transfer here. Again, we sent some material. We did the trial. Trials are successful, and now we are ordering those machines from Europe, which will come by the end of this year or beginning of next year, and then this excellence center for iron-making will also start flying.
Okay, sir. And export side, how much is currently the export contribution of the total sales for FY2025 and for this quarter?
It is about 10%. This quarter, maybe 11%, sometimes it is 9.8% or so. So you can take average 10%.
10%. Is there any opportunity it can go up further in the next couple of years or something like that?
That is also very important for us to grow. And it is at global level also. We are discussing with the global team, our strategy team, how we can increase our export also. But again, same thing. As you will see, a few people are giving only excuses. But the thing is this. If I need to do a trial, it will take six months minimum. And then they will give you a commercial order, small quantity order, and then you are approved supplier. So it will all take time, right?
Okay.
So my take is for all the investors, analysts, you supported us throughout so many years. But take it with a pinch of salt that with 3-4% of the Dahlia plants, we have taken it to double digit without doing much expansion or much CapEx. So you should have a faith and support us.
So what is the current margin for Dahlia also here?
Pardon?
Yeah. So what is the current EBITDA margin for Dalmia also? It is around 10%-12%?
Yeah. We are maintaining double-digit from last three quarters also, I think.
Exactly. Okay, sir. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you. I'll come back with a few. Thank you for the detailed answer, sir.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Ashish Kejriwal from Nuvama Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hi. Good evening, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, a couple of questions on the market. As you rightly pointed out, we are seeing intense competition, and I think management is very right not to disturb the market in such a way to flood it. But in this intense competition, which is maybe prevailing even in FY26, is it possible to share what's your expectation of volume growth?
Yes. Good evening, and thank you for your support for our philosophy. Yes, I can give you. In itself, we have a tremendous growth. We were kicked off the block. Just entered one year back. We were at a trial stage. But the initial results are so fantastic and satisfying to the steel industry, the blast furnace, and pellet plants, and DRI. Now we are getting repeat order, even at a higher price than our last year's price. So this will be a big lever to increase our market share. And at the same time, the product which I just mentioned, we are bringing the technology to India. That will also be an upside. Secondly, commoditization. We are not leaving this alone for the competition. We will also be working on it. We are already working on it, product optimization, recipe, acquisition, and it will definitely also add.
I believe we should be able to deliver 8%-10% volume growth in coming days.
Sir, when we are talking about 8%-10% volume growth, we are taking into consideration that we are also going to dent some hiccups in the commodity market also because now if competition is already because sir, one thing is steel margins definitely have improved after the safeguard duty. So are you seeing in your interaction with your customer that they are somewhat easing off and giving you higher prices for the work which we are doing, or still they are negotiating on a lower prices?
No, they are better placed, and they are positive now. I would say I will not take the name of the customer, but I can tell you in last one month, I got a price increase of almost INR 11-12 crore, right? But the effective date is 1st of July, 1st of August because the long-term contract is in place. So that's why I'm saying July onward, you will see upside in margins, in volumes.
Understood. Secondly, sir, is it possible to break down broadly our total volume into commodity versus premium products?
As of now, I don't have numbers with me, but yes, we can talk offline sometime after a week or so so that we can have a number with us.
Sure, sir. No issues. And thirdly, sir, as you mentioned in your opening remarks that raw material benefits, you will start hitting it from second quarter. So is it safe to assume that from second quarter, we can see volume growth as well as raw material cost benefit and benefit of price increase also from the customer?
Yeah, you are right.
Exactly.
Especially for integrated plant customers, this is absolutely good assumption.
Understood. And in the export market where we are having around 10%, are we seeing any green shoots available over there where we can somewhat increase our exposure, or this 8-10% YY volume growth is entirely on basis of domestic market?
Historically, before we acquired Dahlia, etc., our export revenue was about 22-23%. It is still at that level. I keep on saying our ambition is to take it to 30% in that legal entity, RHI Magnesita India Limited, because from Dahlia plants, we are not doing any export at all. That ambition is still there, but you must realize that geopolitical situation outside India is so bad, so bad. China is dumping refractories here, there, everywhere. Now with Trump's tariff policy, they will still be having overcapacity. Our Indian competition is also increasing capacity. So it is double whammy for us. How do you counter it? Still, we have our own plan, and we are working on that.
Understood. And sir, lastly, obviously, we have external market where we have little control, but internally, are we doing something which can optimize cost further? And if yes, how much one can expect that to lead to increasing margins on what period?
Yes. It is really, really a very focused area for Indian management, our R&D people, technical marketing people. They are just working only on this, optimization of recipes, reducing the cost of our products, etc. So this is a very serious issue for us to remain relevant in the market, in commodity market.
Understood. So, because, sir, you were planning. Yeah, please, sir. Go ahead.
That's basically that even to have the sustainability of these cost competitiveness, some of the CapEx we are appropriating for some of the recycling or secondary raw material operations as well so that it's continuous for us.
Yeah.
Understood. Understood. Because, sir, in the last two years, we have pruned down the capacity also by maybe closing down one of the plants and making other plants more efficient. So that also could have helped us in lowering cost, or still that's in the making because our capacity, we have obviously pruned down from 525 KD to 512. So what's the roadmap ahead?
It is market-driven. If the market is buoyant, if the demand is really good, and as I said, 8% to 10% growth, we don't see in short term, we do some product optimization or plant optimization or production optimization. But if the market is a bit slow, then we will definitely look into it whether we can further consolidate our operations or not. So this is also one of our strategic discussions within RHI Magnesita.
Sure, sir. Sure. Thank you, and all the best, sir.
Thank you. Thanks a lot.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Sahil Sangvi from Monash Network Capital. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Good evening, Azim sir and Pramod sir. Thank you for the opportunity and good performance in such a competitive market. My question was one-fold on the export, which you have largely answered. But on the second, just wanted to understand the seasonality in the cement side of the business. Now, is it fair to say that a couple of these quarters are the ones which have very large volumes and some of them don't have volumes? Is that correct? And how do you aim to ramp up the revenue contribution from Dahlia going ahead and any plans on that, please?
Sahil ji, thank you very much. I was waiting for you, actually. I was missing you. So first quarter is historically a very lean quarter when it comes to steel. And with second quarter starting until September, it is a monsoon season. So during monsoon season, normally, cement people do the maintenance of their kilns, etc., because construction is slow. The output is they are not able to sell at that pace because of monsoon. Construction of roads, bridges, housing, everything will come down to 50% level or so. So this is the time when they do the maintenance. So this is a time, I think, all the sector people, not only us, will have a chance to increase their sale in this segment.
So is this sort of a few quarter phenomenon? I mean, it's not spread across the whole year, right? Is my understanding correct on the cement volumes?
Yeah, you are right. These two quarters normally are strong from, say, July to September or so, beginning as maybe June, and it sometimes spills over to October. These are the strong times. And one thing more is there. If there's a project, one or two projects come in between, whether it's a January to March or October to December, then it is upside. If somebody is putting up a new kiln, etc., then it is almost a 50-60 crore project. So if last quarter, there was no project. In October to December quarter, there was a project. So it also depends upon in which quarter project comes, or if it comes in every quarter, then it's a very similar type of sale.
So just to give you some numbers around this, Sahil, if you look at our Q3, we said we had a record revenue in the last quarter. That's another shipment as well, again, contributed by cement volumes. And as Pramodji mentioned, also for some of the project orders in our iron-making business that we ended up delivering. But these project business are quite absolutely I will not call it seasonal. I will call it sporadic because it depends upon when the customer wants to commission, whereas cement is quite seasonal and predictable, if that answers your question.
Yes, yes. Just my second question on the Dalmia revenues or the volumes on an annual basis. I mean, how do we see this asset ramping up in the next two, three years? What will be the few factors which will help us do this? I mean, I understand there is a refurbishment or you're bringing in new technology and new machinery, but then what needs to be done on the marketing front or on the customer front or anything on the product front over here at Dalmia?
So in coming months, you will see a lot of local production, which now is coming from China or Europe, particularly for cement, fired magnesia bricks, etc. We have already done the technology transfer. We produce 500 tons. We supply to two customers. Performance is under evaluation. And within the next two, three months, we will produce another 1,000 tons and supply to four, five customers. So this year, probably calendar year, is a trial time. And from then onward, if trials went well, probably it will add INR 100 crore for next year in that particular segment only. And then we have a strong market also for magnesia carbon. And our cutting plant is full, running at full capacity.
Now, from last month, we started producing in Rajgangpur Dahlia plant about 6,700 tons of this magnesia carbon bricks also for steel industry, which we will ramp up to 1,000 tons every month. So that will also give us about INR 100 crore or so next year. So these are the upside. Apart from the product I told you, high-end product, which we are bringing to India, mostly it will be in Jamshedpur or in Bhiwadi or in Visakhapatnam plant or a few in Rajgangpur also. But it will be spread not only in Dahlia plant.
Exciting, sir. Very exciting. Thank you so much for this information and very all the best, sir.
Thank you. Thank you, Sahil ji.
Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Chintan Shah from JM Financial. Please go ahead.
Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. So I had a few questions a bit broadly around the industry. You mentioned that there has been a significant overcapacity in the industry. So if you could highlight what sort of industry capacity currently is there and going ahead, any sort of expansions that are coming in? And secondly, considering the growth that we expect in the end-user industry, when do you think this overcapacity situation normalizes? That is the first question.
Okay. So basically, on paper, the projects announced by our competitors in the refractory industry are about 150,000-170,000 tons, which will come up in the next one year or so. And India is perceived to be a growth market, and every company, whether it's global or local, wants to take the advantage of this growth. So everybody is putting up capacity. We acquired two, three companies, definitely, but we have not added the capacity. We are working on optimizing the production. We stopped one plant. Maybe in coming days, we will think of further, or we can consolidate, not increase the capacities or greenfield. So we have our own plans how to consolidate and give the right product to the market.
Got it. Understood. But is it fair to say that next two, three years, even two, three years out, this overcapacity situation will continue to play out, or do you think the situation will be much better two, three years out once the demand that comes in?
I would say, Chetanji, very frankly, it is a matter of fittest survival, so the companies who will really deliver consistent product with the right cost will survive. In 2005 to 2007, this type of mushrooming also happened, and in the next four years' time, all these small companies vanish. Every company has their own strengths and weaknesses. Just to enter the market, seeing that RHI Magnesita is growing in this segment or Vesuvius is growing in this segment, why not we, so it is a wishful thinking, and maybe people have earned a lot of money to now spend on these expansions, but we are not too much worried about this. We have to protect our house, have to remain ahead of our competition with innovation, R&D activities, product optimization, so we have to be cautious but not overly worried about it.
Just to kind of underline some of the things where Pramodji remarked earlier, just to kind of remind everyone, in cement, we are the only provider who can give end-to-end solution, whether it be basic, non-basic, or carbon. In case of steel, most of the major expansion is on the platform as well. And here is where we did already establish ourselves in the iron-making part. And with the product transfers and CapEx investment, we are well poised to take advantage of it. Again, we have built it up in the last two years to have this capability, not as a spur-of-the-moment as Pramodji is mentioning, just to connect it with what's happening in our industry in Manesar.
Got it. Understood. So the second question is regarding comments you were mentioning that there is sort of a commoditization that has been happening in the refractories. So just wanted to understand this better. So what has actually led to this? Because earlier, my understanding was that considering the cost of the end customer and the criticality of refractories, I mean, customers are pretty much sticky with the best sort of supplier, best quality. But now, basically, what is leading to this commoditization? What is driving this change from a customer perspective that they are willing to shift customer just because they offer some lower pricing? So just if you can help us understand.
So I can put it in two baskets. One is a specialized product, very critical product, which we are producing in flow control area, and Vesuvius is producing in flow control area. That has got commoditized. That's why you see very consistent performance of Vesuvius and RHI Magnesita India Limited in that segment. Our margin before we acquired Dahlia was about 17%-18% EBITDA. We still have enjoyed that type of EBITDA when we take out those flow control products. So that margin is very consistent, very product and quality sensitive. The customer does play around with that segment.
Then, in the commodity market when it comes to ladle bricks, etc., working lining, where the customer thinks, "Okay, I have a guarantee of 120 heats." So if somebody is from China or from local and now there are 12, 13 small players for ladle bricks for steel industry. The customer has a guarantee. If a small player is giving 20% or 10% or 15% lower price and asking for that guarantee, what does it matter to the customer? Instead of 120 heats, if it will come down to 110, they will deduct the per-heat payment also. So their cost is coming down. For the last seven, eight months, everybody knows the steel industry was also under pressure because of imports from China, etc.
And now with this 12% duty on some special steel products, they are breathing a little more easily, and they probably will think again how to handle this situation. But they were under pressure, so they wanted to control their cut expenses. But in particular segments, where they don't have productivity-impacting issues.
Got it. Understood. If you can give this mix between specialty and commodity, I think that would be helpful for all of us.
Normally, specialty products are to that 25%-30% of total steel. Okay?
Okay. Got it. Understood. So just one last question. I mean, if I see your presentation of the previous quarter and current quarter, so if we see the requirement of refractories for, say, one ton of steel, I see that previous quarter you mentioned was 10-15 kg, and in the current, you mentioned 8-13 kg. So I mean, is there structurally any change in terms of the requirement of refractories, or?
First of all, great observation. Very few people would have picked it up. What we had done this time is that we have split the refractory consumption into steel making and iron making. So if you compare the last time, you will not see the iron numbers because it's our focus areas. So you see the iron making numbers, the 10 kilograms minus 8.2 kilograms have gone there, just to kind of show the growth potential.
Yeah. At the same time, the steel industry keeps on asking better and better products when it comes to high-end products. So they want to continue casting sequence level from now. I give you an example. ArcelorMittal, eight months back, they were having 12-hour casting time. And for things like casting, when we went for the trial, it was very successful. Then they asked 20-hour casting time. So it took us six months to develop that product. And now that was already developed, and now they are saying 24 hours. So the refractory consumption continuously coming down in steel industry. About 10 years back, it was 15-16 kg. Now it has 8-13 kg. 13 kg is the plant which has really not taken care of their refractory, their solution, etc., and going for commodity business like this, the low-end products, buying from anybody.
The consumption will go up. Upfront, they will be thinking that, "I'm buying cheaper." But eventually, the life will be less, but the consumption will be more. But all efficient plants, as of now, are running at 8-9 kg refractory consumption.
Got it. Understood. Understood. Got it. So thank you, and all the best.
Thank you, Chetan.
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be the last question for today, and I now hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.
Thank you. Thank you very much, dear investors, shareholders, analysts. Your feedback is always very welcome, and it gives us the thoughts on how we are working, where we need to improve, and we always take every comment in a positive way, so we will keep on working on improving our performance, but as I said, the fundamentals of RHI Magnesita are very strong, and we believe in that. The global management believes in that, and I think you people are also believing in our thought process and keep supporting us, and we will deliver much better results in 20 days. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
Thank you. On behalf of Asian Markets Securities, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines.