Hello everyone, and welcome to our H2 Half Year Performance W ebinar of Tessenderlo Group. This session will be recorded. After the presentation, we will have time for some questions, so put your questions in the Q&A box, and we will also allow some of our analysts to ask some questions live after the presentation. By this, I hand over to Luc Tack, our CEO.
Good morning, good afternoon, and Welcome everybody to our Half Year Results call. Thank you for joining us. I will start with the key events of the first half year. As you are all aware, Tessenderlo Group and Darling Ingredients agreed to combine the collagen and gelatin Machines & Technologiess. Tessenderlo Group announced in May the signing of a non-binding term agreement with Darling Ingredients to combine the collagen and gelatin segments of their companies into a new company called Nextida, requiring no cash or initial investments from either party. This strategic partnership aims to create a top-tier collagen-based health, wellness, and nutrition products company positioned to capitalize well on global collagen growth. The transaction could potentially be closed in 2026. Of course, this is still subject to custody, due diligence, and negotiation of definite transaction documents and regulatory approvals. Next, we had the opening of our Picanol Group HQ.
This has been a big relief to all our colleagues at Picanol because for years we have been in containers with meeting rooms and containers with offices around the plant. Now we have new offices, and Picanol Group officially opened its new headquarters in Ieper, on Friday, April 25th, in the presence of Belgium's Prime Minister, Bart De Wever. As you may all know, Picanol has a long history in Belgium and is a very well-known employer here in Belgium. The modern, sustainable work and meeting place provides the necessary space for future growth of Picanol, Psicon trol, Proferro, our cold operating machines and technologies. Within that same segment, and you see we will already start making more use of the offices, Picanol acquired Osterwalder AG. In June, Tessenderlo Group acquired the activities of Osterwalder AG in Lyss, Switzerland. It is a Swiss specialist in powder presses.
Osterwalder, with over 140 years of experience, serves industries such as hard metals and specialty materials and operates globally with 80 employees. We have been attracted also by the business because that business has a lot of technology, which we believe is an important asset for the future of Osterwalder. We had the PB Leiner restructuring process where we are updating you. In November 2024, Tessenderlo Group announced its intention to restructure the Vilvoorde facility in Belgium and to cease operations at the Treforest plant in the UK within the PB Leiner business unit, operating segment Bio-valorization. During the first half of 2025, a formal agreement was reached with the respective work councils, and the restructuring plan is currently being executed. We are very pleased with the progress we have made here. We had some key events after the balance sheet.
Our continuing share repurchase program, in the first half year, the group acquired 562,000 treasury shares at an average price of EUR 22.40 per share. On March 25th, the Board of Directors resolved to cancel 987,000 treasury shares. As of June 30th, 930,000 treasury shares remained to be purchased under the current share buyback program. Furthermore, we have the pleasure of opening officially today our Defiance facility in Ohio. Crop Nutrition operating segment Agro celebrates the opening of its newest liquid fertilizer production facility in Defiance, Ohio. This truly is a major milestone in the company's commitment to advancing sustainable agriculture. For some of you to remind, we opened a similar plant last year in Geleen, Netherlands. Miguel, I will now hand it over to you.
Hello, thank you, Luc, and good afternoon, good morning everyone on the call. Thank you for joining us today for our half year results. I will give some explanations on the results we did publish earlier this morning. Our revenue for the first half year of 2025 is close to EUR 1.5 billion, which is an increase of 7.1% compared to the same period of last year. On EBITDA level, we grow slightly better to 8.4% to reach EUR 163 million of EBITDA, bringing us to an adjusted EBIT of just short of EUR 60 million. The profit or the loss for the period is minus EUR 9 million, but that's mainly related to some non-cash foreign exchange translation for intercompany loans and receivables, and I will come back on that one later in the presentation. Our CAPEX is relatively stable compared to the year before.
At EUR 74 million, we still plan to have a full CAPEX for the year of around EUR 150 million going forward. We still generate a strong cash flow from operating activities of EUR 128 million. Our net financial debt position has gone from a net cash of EUR 32 million to a net debt of EUR 21 million. This is also mainly due to the acquisition of Tiger-Sul last year, in the second half of last year, that was financed through partially bank financing and cash. If we go to our group revenue per segment, you see that we still have a very strong Agro division that accounts for 35% of our total revenues. Our Machines & Technologies is growing.
As you have probably read the financial figures published earlier today, you will have been positively surprised by our Machines & Technologies segment that has done quite well in the first half of the year. Industrial Solutions has been more stable, and Bio-valorization accounts for 21% of our revenues. If we translate that to EBITDA levels, Agro is definitely a big contributor of EBITDA with close to EUR 68 million, while Bio-valorization is positive, but just positive. We have gone through, as Luc mentioned, a restructuring of activities within PB Leiner. EUR 28 million of EBITDA for our Industrial Solutions, EUR 33 million for Machines & Technologies, which is a big jump compared to what we had in the same period last year. If we go quickly through our segments per segment, and I will start with the largest one, our Agro segment.
Agro segment, and if I can remind you, it has our various companies and brands that are operating under the name of Tessenderlo Kerley, Inc., In the U.S. and Tessenderlo Kerley International for our worldwide business, where we produce, sell, and market our crop protection and our crop nutrition activities, there, we have actually an increase of the revenues by 13.6% to EUR 521 million. Our EBITDA margin sits at 13% to reach, as I already mentioned, nearly EUR 68 million. Our crop protection business has been very stable in the first half of the year across the world. Our crop nutrition business, which is more our fertilizer business, has known a higher sales volume in general in most of the products we market. That has been offset sometimes, depending on a product-per-product basis, by somehow lower margins here and there, but relatively stable and in a growing environment.
In our Agro business, I also have to mention that since last year, we have acquired Tiger-Sul. Tiger-Sul is now included in the figures of our Agro business. However, Tiger-Sul, being a very seasonal specific product that is actually more prone to a full application, the results of Tiger-Sul within the Agro segment for the first six months of the year are relatively limited. There will be somehow more results coming from there in the second half of the year. As we go through our second segment, Bio-valorization, with two companies called PB Leiner and our rendering business Akiolis.
PB Leiner was going through a restructuring process in the beginning of the year and therefore reported a weaker than expected first quarter, but has recovered mainly in the second quarter of this year to where we can see actually the benefits already from the restructuring, and we expect that going forward to further strengthen. Akiolis, even with higher sales volumes on their products, they were still actually the victim of lower margins and selling prices, particularly on fat products. Our industrial solution segments, where we have Kuhlmann and Moleco, as well as DYKA. Kuhlmann is our water coagulant specialist chemicals. Moleco is our chemicals mainly for the mining industries. And DYKA, which is our PVC, PP, and PE production facilities.
We see various different dynamics whereby we see that DYKA has done relatively well and even better than last year across the board in Europe on the sale of pipes and fittings, whereby Kuhlmann and Moleco suffered from lower volumes than the year before. However, they were able to keep their margins relatively intact. Our grease segment of Machines & Technologies, which is all the Picanol Group. So as Luc mentioned, Picanol is not only Picanol, but it's the weaving machines, but it's also Proferro or Foundry and Psicontrol or electronical components, has done extremely well in the second quarter of this year, which has helped boost its revenues to EUR 267 million and boost its EBITDA by nearly 163% to EUR 33 million.
However, the market in the entire textile industry is not stabilized yet, and we cannot guarantee that the good results of the first half of the year will continue in the second half of the year. T-Power, our power plant, 425 megawatt power plant here in Belgium, is still working on the tolling agreement with RWE until June 2026 and has done relatively well in the first half of this year with a high number of operating hours, of running hours, whereby we are contractually getting some benefits on it and with an EBITDA for the first half of the year of EUR 29 million. A lot of you will ask us what is the future after RWE for T-Power. We are currently assessing several options, and we will definitely communicate in due course once we have made a decision on one or the other options.
On the EBIT adjustments, and this is what I mentioned earlier in the call, I think it's important for you to understand that our loss of EUR 9 million comes mainly from an unrealized FX loss on intercompany loan. It's a loan that is basically in U.S. dollar between two companies that we own totally. So it's a non-cash item, and this loss amounts to EUR 52 million. Others in the EBIT adjusting items, we have an impairment of EUR 7.1 million related to assets we own in Fresno, California, that we are phasing out of the company. We will still continue to own the land and the assets, but they will not produce anymore. We had to recognize additional expenses for the restructuring of our PB Leiner activities for about EUR 3.6 million.
The evolution of our net financial debt comes last year, we ended the year at EUR 5 million, including the lease obligations of IFRS 16. We made an EBITDA in the first part of this year, as I mentioned, of EUR 163 million, and we used a lot of this EBITDA actually to invest in growth. We invest in growth through various means. One is acquisitions. We did acquire Osterwalder AG, the Swiss company, earlier this year for a total consideration of actually EUR 5.8 million. The EUR 5.8 million, it's only less than EUR 1 million in cash that has been paid. The rest was taken over existing debt obligation of the company, so this small debt will be in our balance sheet going forward. We also invested in growth CAPEX, about EUR 37 million.
Growth CAPEX is CAPEX that we do invest in new projects, in new plants, in new production facilities that we don't have for the moment. The growth from growth CAPEX and acquisition amounts to EUR 43 million for the first half of the year. We also used part of our proceeds to remunerate our shareholders through our share buybacks for EUR 12 million and dividend that was paid in early June this year for EUR 45 million. I will now leave back the word to Luc to give you maybe a statement on the outlook of the company going forward.
Thank you, Miguel, for your outstanding explanation on the numbers. We are doing a forward guidance that for the full year, we expect our EBITDA will be between the EBITDA of 2024 and 2023, so between EUR 265 million and EUR 318 million. We understand this is, of course, according to our original outlook. I must say, though, we see a lot of uncertainty, and I'm sure you're not the first CEO who is telling you that. I'm sure you have heard that from other locations as well. I have been traveling in Asia and visiting different countries, and we know how volatile the situation is there in respect of duties.
We will have a good deal, we have a bad deal with the United States, and that can change in a few weeks or a few months where people originally think, "Hey, we're going to have a good deal, so let's make plans," and then they come back, "Oh, it's a bad deal," and put everything on ice. I think also, like on our collagen products that travel around the world, you need to pass borders, importing into the U.S. That also has its challenges. Therefore, we are cautious on the outlook. We believe the fundamentals of our business are strong and, of course, always have room to grow, and that's what we work for every day. We believe we can still get better in the future. We also need to be realistic with the economic environment, and that's why we are cautious on our outlook.
With that, I will give it back to Bjorn to see if there are any questions.
Yes, thank you, Luc. Maybe just before we go to the analysts to ask some questions, there's also the financial calendar. We will have our analyst and asset manager day on October 7th, next in this October. Our 2025 results we will launch on March 26th next year, of course. Okay, let me check here on people. I see, I will put Christian Faitz from Kepler first. Let me bring you on screen. You can unmute yourself now, Christian.
Yes, thanks, and good afternoon, everybody. I have three questions, please. First of all, by creating Nextida, can you already quantify synergies by putting these two businesses together? Shall I go question and answer, or shall I ask all three?
All three, please.
All right. Second, what is behind the changes in market conditions you refer to in your release that caused the closure of the crop nutrition facility in California? Third question, I'm trying to understand the Picanol business a bit more. Can you give us a feel for the average selling price of a weaving machine? Background to this question is to get a feeling how much one or a few machine deliveries before or after the reporting period can actually impact this business. When do we expect the textile market to recover according to the feedback you get from your customers? Thanks.
Okay, thank you, Christian, for the questions. This is Miguel. I will take the first questions. The synergies for Nextida, obviously, we have not signed binding agreements yet, and the closing is subject to regulatory approval from the antitrust authorities around the world. We are not in a position to comment on synergies yet. I understand also that maybe the underlying question is when do we expect to finalize those binding agreements because the closing we mentioned might occur in the course of 2026. We expect to close those binding agreements in the third quarter of this year, in the coming weeks, months.
Thank you.
Thank you for your question and the respect of the closure of the fertilizer facility in Fresno. It is a division within that plant there. We didn't close the plant, but it was the bentonite sulfur production line that we did close, and we closed that because of an opportunity, of course. What we were doing there is we were producing bentonite sulfur, and we were launching bentonite sulfur on the market. The opportunity came there to buy Tiger-Sul, which is also producing bentonite sulfur. In respect of looking at the economics, Tiger-Sul has also a plant in California, and there is no use to have two plants there. That is why we took the decision to close Fresno because with the Tiger-Sul setup, we have a much stronger position with our production in Canada, California, and Alabama.
In respect of Picanol, I kind of alluded a little bit to it in my presentation. I was in Delhi a few months ago and sitting there with the teams, and we're looking at the projects and the pipeline of the projects. At that time, [Mr. Modi] had also been in the United States, and people were kind of bullish that's going to be a good trade arrangement there. All of a sudden, things turn, and it's 25%, possibly 50% duties, and then products go on ice, projects go on ice. That is the volatility that we have, and which is quite troublesome right now that there is a lot of hesitation from customers to invest. We hope that will clear out in the coming months and that there will be some more certitude on what the outlook will be on tariffs.
In respect of price and amount of looms, etc., as you can imagine, for competition reasons, we never disclose details on that. It will be difficult for me to give you further guidance on that one. Thank you for your question.
Okay, thanks very much.
Thank you, Christian. The next one that I will put on screen will be Frank Claassen. Just a second. All right, Frank, you can unmute yourself.
Yes, good afternoon. Frank Klaassen of the [Grove P, again] . I've got two questions. First of all, on the Bio-valorization, you still had a tough first half. While your new Darling Ingredients, they talked about, let's say, improved supply-demand situation for gelatin. My question is, do you still see the same? Do you expect a better second half for Bio-valorization? That's my first question. Secondly, Kuhlmann, that normally is quite a stable business, but the profits declined in the first half. What are the dynamics here? Is it economic uncertainty, or could you elaborate why at Kuhlmann profits were down? Thank you.
Thank you, Frank. This is Miguel. I will take the first question, and Luc might take the second question, or we might help each other if needed. Bio-valorization, yes, indeed. First of all, we've got two markets. We've got in our Bio-valorization, we've got the rendering market, and we've got also the gelatin and collagen market. The gelatin and collagen, as already mentioned, we were going to a restructuring of our bone chain or bone gelatin in the first quarter of this year, which has taken a lot of efforts and demand on our teams. That has obviously not helped ourselves to place ourselves in the best way in the market. Indeed, the second was much better, and we see an improvement in the demand of the gelatin worldwide. That's for sure.
We believe that the second half of this year should be better than the first half of this year. However, we have some contractual obligations whereby our prices might be for some customers fixed for a period of time. All those positive market sentiments and market dynamics take some time to translate directly in our P&L. On our Achiolis business, we see there an overall increase in our volumes, and we are doing quite well mainly in France. We're doing less well in Spain, but we're definitely working hard to make Spain more profitable in the very short term. I hope that answers your questions.
I n the respect of Kuhlmann, we had an unplanned event in our sulfuric acid plant, which went down unexpectedly. We were down for a few weeks, so this impacted our volumes.
Secondly, in the respect of the ferrochloride, it has been quite dry, and when we are in a drought, then there is also less demand from the municipalities for the water treatment plants and actually less consumption because of it. These two matters were temporary, and we should be okay for the second half of the year. Thank you.
Yes, thank you. That's very helpful. Thank you.
Thank you, Frank. The next one I will put on will be Wim Hoste. You're now on screen, Wim, if you can unmute yourself.
Yes, thank you, and good afternoon. I also have a couple of questions. First, touching on the agro business, can you clarify the current situation around MOP sourcing? Is it still mainly coming from Canada? Can you elaborate on that? Also, the difference in profitability between the SOP and the sulfur businesses. The reason I'm also asking that is that your profitability is okay, but if we look back a few years ago, you had EBITDA margins which were significantly higher. I'm trying to guess, certainly with respect to SOP, whether there is a pathway to move back towards the older margins if the MOP sourcing situation does not change versus the current status. Those are the questions I would like to ask on Agro. On T-Power, also a question here is that I think you mentioned that there is an increase in operating days.
I'm wondering a little bit what the underlying profitability of that business is today. I know in the past there were very few operating days. If you would be on a standalone business without a tolling agreement, with the current rate of operations, how much profitability would that business generate? If you can clarify that a bit, that would also be helpful. Last question is on the strategy. You're not known for doing a lot of partnerships. The collagen gelatin partnership is probably a bit of an exception for you in the history of the company. The question is here, are there other businesses that are under scrutiny for potential divestment or teaming up with somebody, or is that gelatin deal really an exceptional situation because of the profitability in the market? If you can clarify the strategy on that point, that would also be helpful. Those were my questions.
Thank you, Wim, for your questions, and happy to shed some light. I will start with your third question on the strategy. I would like to remind you that we didn't sell anything. We go into a joint venture. Basically, what we are looking at, we are looking at the business that we have from internally into the business that we have a look that we say, "Okay, how can we make that business intrinsically stronger?" If that is on our own, we will do that on our own. If we believe that by combining a business with another business, that might be creating more value and more opportunity also for all stakeholders in the business, of course we are considering that. Not known for partnerships, I would like to remind that we were a shareholder in Rita and a partnership.
We were also as a family in other businesses and partnerships. It is not per se that we see that as a negative thing. If in the future business economics make a partnership smart and sensible, we will not hesitate to move into that direction. You have a good question in the respect of T-Power. I think the income of T-Power is quite stable. It is a little bit higher if we have a little bit more running hours, but it is always north of EUR 15 million EBITDA, and this is under the current RWE tolling agreement. Going forward, it is impossible really to predict what the EBITDA will be. Most likely, it is going to be lower, for sure, we think even.
It is going to be probably considerably lower, but it all has to do with the markets, which are really, for the biggest part, formed day ahead, let alone me doing a prediction year ahead. This is extremely difficult. It has to do with economic activity. It has to do with availability of sun hours. It needs to be said that we are further investing into the T-Power plant to make it more reactive to the market, meaning that we can, and this is the ideal world, it is not exactly like that, but that we can switch it on, like you switch on the light in your house and switch it off. In the future, we believe that power income will rather be generated in flexibility rather than in the production itself.
In respect of Agro and ETU, you are right in recognizing that margins are lower than they have been in the past. There again, unfortunately, geopolitics play a big role in that. I'll give you an example. MOP, we have been sourcing for 50 years from Belarus and Russia. All these supply chains have been cut off, and now we get most of our product from Saskatchewan, moving it all the way to Vancouver. They're loading it into ships through the Panama Canal to Antwerp. A secondary result of the sanctions against Russia is that Russia was shipping quite a bit of heavy crude into Europe. The heavy crude is also making that there is more sulfur available at the refineries, sulfur being one of our raw materials to make all our fertilizer products.
There also, we have an impact that the market on sulfur is very short because now refineries are running on light crude, more coming from the Middle East. This is, in a nutshell, an answer to your questions.
Yes, okay, thank you. If I can squeeze in one follow-up question on the CAPEX budgets going forward. I think in the beginning, it was mentioned that the full-year CAPEX would be around EUR 150 million, which is roughly the first half number multiplied by two. I also recall that there is quite some growth CAPEX included in the first half CAPEX. With the number of projects coming to an end, you operated or you started operation in Defiance. Last year, there was the plant in Geleen, which is now operational. Also, the Picanol Group headquarters is fully built. What kind of midterm CAPEX should we include in our numbers? Can you also maybe elaborate on the key projects, growth projects to support those CAPEX numbers?
Okay, Wim, very good questions. On the CAPEX, yes, indeed, we have built Defiance, but Defiance, yes, part of the CAPEX for Defiance is also for the second half of this year. We're still building our gasification unit in France for Achiolis, and we are still also building the expansion of our Kuhlmann plant in Loos in the coming months and even years for Loos because it's going to take one more year, at least, to be fully operational. We still have some growth CAPEX. It's a good question that everyone has. Going forward, we believe that our maintenance CAPEX, and maintenance CAPEX is predominantly also, I would say, somehow in the agro segment where we have old factories where we need to redo the buildings. These are, yes, maybe once-in-a-lifetime CAPEX, but they are quite expensive CAPEX. That will be going on as from probably next year.
Our main maintenance CAPEX outside of growth CAPEX should be in the EUR 75- EUR 100 million range going forward.
Okay, very clear. Thank you.
All right. No more questions, Wim?
No, thank you.
All right, thank you. Looking in the Q&A, I think we addressed most of the questions. There's maybe two questions that we still can address. The first one is a double question. How significant are the new liquid fertilizers in the Netherlands and U.S. compared to pre-existing capacity? How is the startup of these plans? When are they expected to run full rate patients?
Thank you. I find these excellent questions. If we start with Europe, as you can imagine, we had one plant in [Rouen] and we have doubled our capacity now with the plant in Holland. It has to be said, of course, we need to build up the markets now. It's not because you build the plant that you can push the button and that all the product is sold. These products are novel for the market for quite a lot of farmers. I always call it these products, our Tiger-Sul, as the Intel NPC because it helps manage the volatilization of ammonia in UAN. It helps the plant health. It helps the plant to take up better phosphates, to have a healthier crop, and to have a better crop, more yield, more bushels per acre or kilos per hectare.
Having said that, it takes also a lot of missionary work to sell these products to the market and to make the farmers understand the benefits. I would like to remind everybody that the average age of a farmer is 58 years old, and sometimes they are very traditional in the way they approach things and where our products are novel for the market. I think with our agronomist teams, we are doing fantastic work. We are proving again and again through field tests the value of our products. For instance, on our Tiger-Sul, we recently finished field tests seven years in a row. In seven years, we had everything from dry season to wet season to an early spring, which started in March, or a late spring, which started in May. Each time, we are getting confirmation of the value of our products.
In that respect, the basics are strong going forward, but it requires a lot of upfront investment and then building it out. It's not because you built a plant. You should also understand that a season is a season of build demand, and you have a plant running all year. You also must develop the infrastructure to store your liquid product and to move it. Also, that is a constant fight to develop that storage. You also need to develop in the markets that are keen to buy your product and follow the market in that respect. It is a long way, but we are very motivated because we believe that our products not only help the environment, but also put money in the pocket of the farmers. That's what matters at the end of the day. In the second question.
Yes, so one final question. Picanol experienced strong EBITDA above EUR 100 million from 2016 to 2018. Is this performance reproducible in the medium term, or does the competing environment now make this performance unattainable?
That's a good question. I really hope it is repeatable, but only God knows. I think we need to live in the reality of the world. I think everybody knows that international trade is really under review, let me call it like that. What will definitely be helpful going forward is stability, maybe a little bit more on currencies, because we should not underestimate that the euro currency is expensive if you compare it against the Asian currencies. That is not helpful. Secondly, and most important, and that is what we see from our customers, if our customers have a strong outlook for their business, they order machines. If they don't have it, they're very careful. For sure, if the opportunity is there, Picanol has always been able to capture it.
I think that is one of the strengths of our company, that we can dramatically increase production if the demand is there. We will see and do our best in the meantime. We keep developing our product pipeline. Our machines are more and more digital, more and more sensors, less energy. All these things, we are not stopping in our R&D or in our development. I'm really very confident our product pipeline is we have our ITMA show every four years in Europe, the next one in 2027. What we are producing in the product pipeline is going to be helpful going forward. One of the big problems that I learned in visiting customers is that customers are losing technicians everywhere in the world. It is a problem to find technicians.
With our digital tools, we are able to support even remote customers worldwide and helping them in training and educating their technicians, but also making sure they need less of them and that through our digital solutions, factories can operate better going forward. I think we have one more.
One last minute question. We appreciate an update on the current strategic thoughts with T-Power. Can it play a role in the AI-related growth of data centers in providing power?
Thank you. I think that's also a very good question. Do you want to take this one, Miguel?
We would definitely call it. Actually, we're lucky that we're located in Belgium. Belgium is at the crossroads of the European grid. It's also at the crossroads of the European infrastructure in terms of fiber optics and cables. We definitely believe that data centers in Belgium make sense. However, I said it, we are in Belgium. Getting a permit, getting land, getting approval to have all that is sometimes difficult, challenging. It's not impossible. We are looking at the data center market very closely. We have been having discussions with data center builders and operators, and we hope that definitely T-Power might be in the future a part of this value chain should we capture that one in Belgium. Indeed, we believe that we have the right parameters to attract this type of industry to Belgium in the future.
I would like to remind everybody we have this project to build a new gas power plant. When the last auction was run, we were pretty sure that we were going to have the project. Some of you may recall we had an appeal to our permit, and we were at risk of losing our permit. That was during the time when the whole disaster happened with INEOS in Antwerp when INEOS lost their permit. We were also very cautious at that time. That was the final reason why the project has not been built, because we had an appeal against our permit, which finally we won a year later.
At the time of decisions, there are big numbers, big investments, and you cannot dream of it that you are on a close to a EUR 1 billion project, and that all of a sudden, halfway through the project, they shut you down because you lose your permit. I think this is so right what Miguel is saying. You need to get it all through the system before the opportunity is there. It was a good question, I thought.
We believe in it.
Okay, thank you for joining us on this call. We hope to welcome some of you on October 7th during our Capital Markets Day, where we will be able to entertain more in-depth discussions with all of you. Thank you for following us and for your interest. I wish you a good day. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you. Bye-bye.