Hello, everybody, and I hope that everybody is connected. Thank you for being with us today and for this presentation of the 2023 results. With Bruno and myself, Simon Azoulay, we are now going to remind you of all the main events and results of the year 2023 and the future outlook for our strategy and the development in forthcoming years. Now, first of all, as you may have already seen, with respect to the publication of the results, turnover, and so on and so forth, you already had the results in previous months. Turnover went up by 9% in non-organic, but in the aftermath of a disposal in the United States, plus 7.6% in total.
ROA for the year 2023 will actually be 9.3%, 9.4% above our expectations, somewhat because it had been 9.2% for reasons which we can get back to in the first six months of the year. Went up by 9.6% in the second half, H2. Now, to make it simple, we were below 10%, as we usually hope for in the H2. This was actually related to three parameters. One is unfavorable timelines with respect to 2023, important investments generated end of 2022, thinking that we would actually subscribe in 2023 with recruitment problems. We had oversized and overblown the HR teams from a general standpoint, and the situation got back to normal in the meantime. Very specific investments were made related to the change in the IT tool.
We also had a deterioration, a 1% inflation of the intercorporate right to the first, all those different reasons that, well, H1 was rather low, 9.2%, and we corrected the trajectory in H2, although the timelines were also unfavorable in H2 2023, which will not be the case in 2024, and get back to 9.6% and hopefully go beyond 10% next year. I mean, this year, in 2024. So we really need to take, well, factor in the fact that the 2023 result, I'm sorry, 2022 results, was quite extraordinary, and we actually outperformed the 11% level because of incredible growth related to an important recovery. And I'm here talking about all of the 2020 projects and 2021 projects that had been coming to a grinding halt. And this was a favorable position insofar as SG&As are concerned and the occupation rates of our engineers.
This was quite good in 2023, 11.2%. Unfortunately, this is not as standard. The standard, as you may well know, is actually to outperform the 10% level, and we're very happy beyond 10.5% and below 9.6%. We're not happy. So we got back to 9.2%, and hopefully we'll get back to the standard in 2024. Anyway, we're putting our best foot forward to do so insofar as the embedded—I mean, the number of engineers in 2024—we experienced something which does not weigh on the turnover, but the number of engineers was impacted in November, December 2023. An Indian client, an important Indian client for whom we had 1,500 people in various IT issues. Not an international client, but an Indian client. Well, that client decided to reinternalize the 1,500 people, and the impact is about EUR 25 million in terms of turnover. This is not a major impact.
This is just an impact. Now, this is too bad, okay, but we're now got over 50,000 engineers, and with that, 2,000 engineers more because of the two acquisitions we carried out that are going to have an impact on our headcounts, one in Japan and another one in another Asian country, which we are going to communicate on, which means that we'll be beyond 52,000 people. And as usual, the headcount, although the model hasn't changed, the population of engineers representing 88% of the headcount, 80% of the population, and the niveau. Well, the level, the number, we're really aiming at +5% now. The next slide. So this is the image of the geographical breakdown of our headcount per macrogeographical zone. And now here, let's take this with a grain of salt.
There are quite a number of projects that are coming from the United States or Europe, which are being carried out in Morocco, India, and Mexico, which means that when you see, for example, that 2,700 engineers in North America, true, but we also use over 4,500 engineers for corporates and revenues generated in North America because we have over 1,700 of those people carrying out projects for North America in India or in Mexico. And then the same phenomenon in Europe. France, for example, we got 11,800 engineers working in France, but actually, they work for France. But for France, we have at least 2,000 engineers more located either in Morocco or Romania or India, contributing to the French project. So we're harnessing 14,000 engineers are actually participating in this.
When you have a look at Middle East, Africa, actually, the 2,600 engineers are mostly working for Europe and in India, 11,600 or in Asia, I'm sorry, but 11,600 engineers. You can see here we got 3,000 that are not working for India or for clients in India, but that are working for clients located in Europe or in the United States, so generally speaking. This is a geographical breakdown which is summed up here and talking about all of our engineers and when we'll be talking about strategy later on. Now, it just pops up as quite a given, at least from a geographical standpoint with respect to this world map because we'll have at least 5,000 engineers. We'll need to really develop in North America quite rapidly, and we'll carry on with our ramp-up in India and in some European countries as well.
Some European countries will have to really be on the standby, although they really surpassed the 2,000 engineer level. Now, same thing for Spain, Italy, and we need to make some progress in Benelux, for example. So much for the world map. Now, let's have a look at the next slide. It is quite an important slide because we're now talking about positioning. Beyond the geographical factor, as usual, we had a look at the engineering representing the core business and the brand image, the main brand image of ALTEN, which ALTEN is actually number one worldwide and number one independent engineer in this market with over 35,000 engineers dedicated to engineering, 70% of our headcount broken down mostly into major blocks, which you can see on the left-hand side.
On both sides of the ALTEN local, everything that's got to do with assisted product systems engineering, in other words, design engineering, studies, prototyping of new industrial equipment, mostly in what we call ASD, aeronautics, space defense, or TT, in other words, automotive trucks and railroad engineering design on the left-hand side and manufacturing engineering plant optimization, IT/OT. Now, design engineering is really the bulk of the matter. We also have businesses off ALTEN brand businesses. Well, none of those two engineering blocks, which are PMO activities, project management activities, I mean, this is representing 3,000 consultants, which is quite a standalone activity because it is not in the basic block, but it's actually indispensable and so forth referencing it.
This is the world leader that non-engineering activity and all of the additional activities from design to manufacturing, in other words, the deployment of networks in energy and in transportation, telecommunication, and everything that's got to do with participation in projects and customer services, in other words, and supports, so on and so forth. So much for the engineering part, 70% of our turnover, but we also are a player, an important player in the world. The IT services or IT enterprise services, SM or SFT2Y. Now, you can actually pick out the name you want, but globally speaking, those are IT management activities and the administrative operations within the companies. That has nothing to do with the design of the equipment and product, whether we're talking about in the service sector and sometimes in the industrial sector.
So we have 30% of those activities, and this is quite heterogeneous depending on which countries we're talking about, but generally speaking, we're talking about Europe, up to 30% in Europe or North America, and to a lesser extent in Asia. Now, we are trying to position ourselves in those activities in the yellow portion, mostly insofar as the development of softwares, of course, with the cybersecurity layers, which we need to really factor in in our industrial equipment and very strong development and success stories with over 3,000 consultants insofar as data analytics, in other words. We're also talking about business intelligence, so forth, the breakdown of our businesses and activities. We will be able to talk about this later on if you have any further questions.
The next slide, in terms of breakdown, sectoral breakdown, of course, the activities, the IT service activities are going to be popping up among bank, finance, insurance, retail services, the media, and public sectors, which you can see on the right-hand side. 30%, I mean, this is the essential bulk here on the right-hand side, and we also have some of those in addition to the 27% which you can see here on this pie. We also have 3% which are related to the industrial sector. This is in blue, represented in blue. Now, all the various sectors of the industrial activities, the automotive and railroads representing 21% of this is quite actually well supported, although this sector is very difficult and challenging. Railroads has a lot of demands. We have good referencing in the sector, and the automotive sector is undergoing restructuring with electric vehicles and decarbonization initiatives.
But this is not the only issue here at hand. The thermal vehicles still have a rosy future for another 15 years at least. Today, we need to face up to permanent and extreme research for enhanced productivity and savings. As a result, a lot of those activities in North America and Europe are being outsourced more and more in low-cost countries such as Morocco, Romania, India, or Mexico. We are supporting our customers insofar as those trends are concerned, and we got a very nice reputation among customers that rather turn to us, not just to us, but I mean to us. We're always among the references for those transformations because they appreciate the fact that we're already present in the front office and so forth, know-how is concerned. We're talking about different countries of origin such as Germany, the United States, and France.
We got know-hows to be able to really work on quality levels in low-cost countries. Now, the equilibrium between the local and the offshore is going to be 1/3, 2/3, 1/3 in local, 2/3 in low-cost countries, and the local. France, Germany, Sweden, for example, all this is going to be steering low-cost initiatives. We're not an agent entity and player. In other words, we do not have 100% of our activities and support functions in India. We're never going to be at the same level as engine players because we've got a major front office, which our customers appreciate, and that's why we can hope, insofar as those automotive activities, not a rich 20%, but perhaps up to 12%-13% EBIT, which we're able to generate, but with a turnover, which by definition is going to be reduced here because this is low-cost.
So much for the automotive sector and railroad sector insofar as the air, space, and defense security. Now, there is no outsourcing here. There's a very strong demand here. The world situation is such that quite a number of projects are now being developed. Of course, we would like now beyond Europe, we'd like to develop our activities in the United States, in the United States for certification, defense confidentiality-related reasons, and strategic reasons. The ramping up of air space activities, space and defense activities are being impacted, and we're starting to have activities, but in the United States, we're rather working in other sectors, space, automotive, and trucks. But this sector is quite healthy and is undergoing developments. Other sectors, which we call other industries, energy, telecommunication, industrial equipment, really were somewhat suffered.
This was aerospace actually went down and was actually slowed down in H1 2023 and starts up at the end of the year. The other way around with telecommunications and energy, well, we're really focusing on major projects into supporting EDF or EPRs, for example, so as to really keep developing our activities in 2024, 2025, and of course, on all the renewable energy sources, which in Germany, most especially, in which we're trying to develop our activities quite significantly. Insofar as the yellow sectors on the right-hand side of the slide of the pie, now here, we experienced drastic reduction, investment reduction in the aftermath of hyper investments made in 2021 and 2022 and a grinding stop of new projects in 2023, hence the stabilization of the turnover in this sector. This sector was clobbered in all of the countries in which we develop with.
We're talking about France, Canada, Eastern Europe, Italy, or Spain and Portugal. So we do not know whether this is going to be starting up once again at the beginning of the year 2024, but right now, we don't really have a lot of information. It's quite flat and stable. It's not going down, but it's not growing. And this represents 9% of our turnover insofar as all of the other sectors, so-called retail, administrative sectors, public sector, retail, and so on and so forth, representing 18% of our activities. Now, in those sectors, also got clobbered, less than the banking sector and the financing sector, but we need to position ourselves on very specific technical offers such as cybersecurity, cloud migration, and Salesforce development. So much for the comments I wanted to make in the various sectors.
I'm not going to reiterate this in the next slide, but you perhaps are going to be getting more details now with the various events or referencing that actually took place or projects or initiatives which customers are quite fond of in the automotive, aerospace, railroad space, life sciences. You'll have more details. The same thing for telecommunication, banks, and retail. Now, I'm not going to make any further comments here in this respect so as to really gain time. Now, I gave you the information, the necessary information, the most important information. So I'd like you to have a look at the slide insofar as CSR policy. Now, this investment is displayed here in the slide, and which we really have been working on since 2012.
We improved our ratios in the aftermath of various certifications, which you can see here: CDP, EcoVadis, Gaïa, so on and so forth, Gaïa, and which you can see here that we got. I mean, we're really top-notch here with respect to all of the various companies in France, SBF 120. In 2023, one important point is related to CSRD where new demands, great demands, are being put on the table. And this is going to be costing a lot of money. We need to really high-fly people because this is going to have an impact on all of the companies of the groups. If we want to get this certification, we got 1.5 years to achieve this process insofar as the CSRD project is concerned and for the validation, the decarbonization trajectory.
Now, I'm going to be available along with Bruno to answer any of your questions on those different and important issues. In the next slide, now, this is actually an illustration of the various challenges we've been experiencing in the last few years, M&A. Now, before the COVID crisis, until 2019, ALTEN had a strategy. Okay, we were 30,000, perhaps 20,000 in previous years, and we did what we call add-on. In other words, companies from 100-300 people so as to be positioned in different countries. And this worked pretty well for about 10 years. Now, given the size we have in different countries, we decided to change sizes and strategies, acquisition strategies, and focus on companies with 300-700 people. Now, it could be 1,000 people or 200 people, but those would be exceptions. It may happen just because opportunities that this might generate.
I mean, prices went crazy because all of the companies, 80% of all those companies, with people over 400 people were already contacted, and we hooked up with some of the companies. We did so through private equities, whereby those private equities went into the capital or became majority stakeholders at times up to 80%, but usually 40%. And it is very difficult to talk with those companies because their timelines so to sell out within 4-5 years. And there's a lot of buildup among those companies, little synergies between different companies. And the EBIT are totally cosmetized, 3-5 points with multiples on the EBIT, with additional points being added with a tool ranging from 12-15 points. So this is a diluted process here. This becomes very dangerous and diluted to ALTEN because this will require a lot of unraveling and restructuring.
We witnessed a few operations, which I would not mention, that occurred in France, for example, in our sector at really crazy prices, crazy levels. We're not going to get involved in those, and we are going to keep hoping, finding companies with 300-700 people, I'm sorry, that are still within the founder's hands. There are very few of those companies, and it's very difficult to identify those companies. We identified some of them in Eastern Europe and Asia, and that's where possible operations might be taking place, such as the ones you can see here.
For a software company in the United States, Canada, and Poland, we consolidated our presence in Warsaw because we were present in other cities with a company with 350 consultants, another company for the development of engineering activities in India, working a lot for the United States and Europe, the offshore, a small company in Spain, and in Japan, companies with 720 people consolidating the 600 people we already had. So we have over 1,300 in Japan, and we'd like to reach 2,000 quite fast, quite soon. Now, of course, there is an interesting potential. So we bought out EUR 94 million worth of revenues and 1,800 consultants. The ratio here, the consultant ratio, is less than we had for the group because there is a company in Poland and another company in India. So we were hoping to reach EUR 3 billion.
We are behind, and I hope that we will manage with a disruption that might have seemed not favorable with quiet times in 2023, 2024, so with companies with similar growth, some results which are not going as fast to find more targets. Unfortunately, it has not been the case. The M&A market and private and with financials is very active with a lot of enthusiasm for this activity sector. We have declined three files, one in Germany, another one in the U.S., etc., and the multiples were above 15 with EBITDA that were customized. So it's become a little bit difficult, which is disappointing more than the other aspect, the revenue growth or the maintaining of the EBITDA.
So this really is a point that is more of a problem, but I'm hopeful that we will be able to make more progress for over 2,500 people for 2024, and we hope to reach more than 3,500. That's the M&A policy. Now, regarding the breakdown for the shareholders before Bruno comes in and comments the results more in detail, this hasn't changed since about 10 years, I believe. I did announce before COVID in 2019 that I was going to give away 5% for charities, but I did not do it because the share was not high enough, and there is still an important margin for progression. So I preferred to do it then. So I now give the floor to Bruno. He's going to comment more in detail the annual results for 2023.
Yes, hello. A s usual, I will start the presentation to show you the slides that show our progression of our revenue and the headcounts for the group, as you can see, +80% over five years with more than EUR 4 billion of income. We started the year 2023 with 53,000 collaborators, more than 40,000 engineers after the. And then at the end of 2023, we have 57 collaborators, most of them engineers with maybe a more feeble progression than the previous years. But truly, this is a result of an organic growth, +2,700 engineers, 700 in France, the rest of them outside of France, an organic growth despite a slow context. There is a sequential growth of our headcount, which is a good performance to be noted. We also integrated 14.
Yes, we have lost our speaker, Mr. Benoliel. Mr. Benoliel?
[Foreign language]
Mr. Benoliel, yes. We can hear you again.
[Foreign language] S o M&A that was more 15 engineers because of transfers and acquisitions. Okay, next slide then. As you can see, organic growth remained sustainable this year, 9%, with a slowdown compared to 2022, which had been anticipated since announcing the end of last year. This was materialized later on, later than we had anticipated. First semester, we had an organic growth of 11.4%, and it went down to 7.6% for the second quarter. The growth dynamic is different depending on geographies, and this is the next slide, but overall in France, France resisted pretty well with a growth progression of 10.2% organic growth, and overall, the rest of the world was 8.74%, 6.00% because of the exchange rate effect. Now, if we look at geographies, I will try to do this in a synthetic way.
Okay, this was commented last month already, but overall, France had a good performance and accelerated its growth even for the last quarter. Southern Europe and Benelux did not slow down, and all the other areas, geographies, speeded up for the last semester. Now, in France, we had two days less working days than the year before. The activity still progressed a lot, mainly because of the automotive, defense, and cybersecurity areas in the area of Spain and Portugal.
[Foreign language] Okay, 18% to -4% for the last quarter. Hence, an annual growth of 5% in Germany. That was Germany. Now, the other.
[Foreign language] In the U.K., I know that some were surprised by the growth. So some were surprised by the growth in the U.K. Indeed, we have an organic growth below 10%, mainly because of the Methods company and acquisition of last year, representing 40% of the revenue, which had a slight decrease in the last quarter.
So that decreased the organic growth slightly. Now, for the historical parameter, the growth is above 10%, around 10%, even though the main sectors, automotive, mainly have gone down. In Italy, growth for the fourth year was about 25%. Progression in all sectors. Benelux, the growth that is maintained at 15%, going up in Belgium, but slowing down in the other countries.
Scandinavia, the situation is about the same as in Germany for the same reasons, with an activity that went down or slowed down during the year, -4, -5, 0.4, 0.5%. Now, for Sweden and the equipment sector in Finland, each sector representing about 60% of the income in each country. Now, in Eastern Europe, we have identical curve. It's quite satisfactory with a growth of 17%. In North America, growth has slowed down, especially that was flat on the last quarter. In the U.S., mainly the automotive, oil, and gas that have slowed down. Also in Canada, mainly the bank and finance, about 40%, representing about 40% of the Canadian income. Finally, if we review our activities per zone in the Asia-Pacific area, the growth is 3%. It was better for the second semester.
I draw your attention to the fact that it has to consider the activities we had in Singapore, representing 12% of the Asia-Pacific area and 3% in 2023 because of a number of oil and gas projects that were stopped and other projects that were stopped in the bank area. So if we look at the figures outside of Singapore, the growth of this region is 10% for this year, which is a figure you need to remember. Now, China, representing 35% of the area, has slowed down because of the telecom, mainly. The automotive sector, about 30% of the income in China maintained its growth. India, for local markets, 30% of the income is growing by 12% thanks to the automotive sector.
Two countries which are developing on a regular basis, Japan, 11% of the area has slowed down for the last quarter with a global growth of 30% thanks to the electronic sector. South Korea, 10% of the area. Now, next, if we look at the group results with an operating margin that was already commented upon, 9.4% of the income for this year. We had anticipated in the last two years a return on normal operating margins prior to COVID. In 2023, there was an unfavorable calendar effect with less working days, which had an effect on the margin. The activity rate back to the norm, 92%, so a bit less than the year 2022, which had an effect on the margin.
Now, the margin per project has made progress throughout the year thanks to management of the productivity and the increase of the fees throughout the years during the second semester, third quarter. So overall, we were able to absorb almost fully all the overcosts in France and also internationally to support the development of the work packages. This is good news, which means that the activities have not gone worse, contrary to what we had experienced in 2022. The production capacity has evolved in 2023. As was indicated, we have also reinforced a number of directorates, grouping some engineers. We have increased some investment for new IT systems, for example, or IS systems, a few exceptional costs also for new facilities. But overall, the SG&A.
Then the incidents of the M&A, of course, the integration of Methods and other companies which were smaller but had an impact on the group's margins and the M&A cost, which helps us to understand how all of these elements that show that it went from 11.1%-9.4% of the sales revenue. Now, per semester, second semester of this year, it's quite rare, actually. There were no big gaps between S1 and S2. So we've not seen an improvement of the operating margin. The margin has progressed from 9.2%-9.6% of sales revenue thanks to an improvement of the gross margin because of the increase of tariffs, and the SG&A have gone down between the first and second semester. Now, shares, this is, as you know, cash, the share-based payments, EUR 32 million for this year, fully aligned with the first semester.
The non-recurring profit, EUR 32.3 billion this year, maybe a bit higher than what was expected, which can be explained as follows. More than half of this non-recurring profit is due to M&A, EUR 13.4 million euros bonuses as part of acquisitions, which are now part of the P&L. So we also have EUR 9.1 million of restructuring costs, mainly in Germany, Sweden, and EUR 3 million for taxation and other costs. The financial results, and I will come back to that a bit later on. This is a separate slide. The income tax expense is about EUR 87 million, about 25%, which means that our net results reach about 6% of our income, EUR 233 million euros for the net income group share. Now, the financial results, quite easy, about 4. Okay, this is the results which you need to look at. EUR 4.068 million.
The exchange rate result and other net financial expenses, mainly to depreciation or earnout, as you know. We have to update the earnout. So that was quite a charge compensated by some interest for EUR 1 million. So the financial results of EUR 0.2 million with a saving of EUR 4 million. Now, if we look at geographical areas, our results are as follows. In France, the operating profit, in France, we have a number of corporates with operating profits. So if we were to reuse these costs, the operating profit would be 9% in France and 9.7% for the rest of the world. In France, the decrease of the operating profit, 92% in France, soit 50 basis points of impact sur la marge. Okay, the basics have improved. However, we have improved. Our ratio has had an impact global of 90 basis points.
Now, the increase of the SG&A we have about 30 basis points for France. Now, internationally speaking, globally speaking, the M&A impacted the margin of 30 basis points. Where we had dilutive acquisitions, the margin was also impacted by the reasons that we explained before. Overall, per parameter, you have three main regions, North America, U.K., Germany, with a setback of less than 10%. The impact in Eastern Europe is about 10% of operating margin, and Benelux and Southern Europe, above 10%. Non-recurring profit, mainly international, as you can see. And the financial income tax expense per geography is slightly superior to France. Okay, quickly, the next income statement by region, hardly any incidents. Just to say here, that this is not, evidently, comptablement enregistré dans les comptes.
It does not hear very well. I did not hear that. Sorry.
Now, regarding cash flow, we have an operating cash flow representing 9.4% of the income, which is normal. We had very little CapEx. We generated an important cash flow last year or this year, which helped to pay our income tax, EUR 123 million, which is an exceptional income tax on the added value. We financed the financing of our BFR and our CapEx, which were low, 0.5% of our income, total income. Our free cash flow, EUR 146 million, 3.5% of our total income. The free cash flow would have been 183. The financial investments were important in 2023. Out of the EUR 217 million, 226, a bit more, that's what you have here on this slide. We've seen some reimbursement of loans. So out of the EUR 226 million, 121 were for payments and 105 for earnouts. So as you can see, this has gone down. Total amount.
Now, the dividends, EUR 1.5 per share as to the net financial interest, compensated by the negative exchange rate effect for non-euro currencies. So you see the other financial flows of EUR 0.6, with some exchange rate effects which are negative.
[Foreign language] Now, because of seasonality factors, a lot more important than usually between H1 and H2, the seasonality factor was actually impacted by the slowdown of the organic growth in H2. Working capital increase representing, well, it's justified here because of our business, because of the customer number increase. Going up EUR 80 million on a like-for-like basis, EUR 16 million related to organic growth, and EUR 1 million related to 1.5 DSO increase between 2021 and 2022.
Now, after a 97-day parameter in June. So this is highly localized parameter in Germany, Netherlands, and France, Netherlands for economic reasons. Now, the other entries here, I mean, the variations are not that significant related to the business conditions. The Capex, as I said already, representing 0.5% of turnover, lower than the normative level, which is 0.7%-0.8%. So we got a free cash flow, economic free cash flow, EUR 183.7 million, 4.7% of turnover, free cash flow, which is going up by 23% compared to I did not hear the word. Now, in summary, what can we remember from all this? Organic growth, which is quite satisfactory, 90% despite the slowdown which we had anticipated. The operating margin, which is also satisfactory, although we would have liked it to be above this figure at the beginning of the year.
This is related to the event which we already talked about with some over-increasements. But it is close to what it used to be before COVID. It was penalized by the business rate which went down, which was related to unfavorable timelines and restructuring events. The organic growth, a slight increase of DSO, which generated working capital increase, be that as of May, free cash flow, economic free cash flow represented by representing 5% of turnover went up by 25% compared to last year. And finally, as every year happened, as self-financed as organic and as external growth dividends, and we now have a net tax position of EUR 300 million for external operations, external growth operations for future years. Now, I am now available to answer any questions at the end of the presentation.
I'm going to kick it over once again to Simon who's going to talk about our growth strategy for forthcoming years.
Thank you, Bruno. Now, in the aftermath of those figures, let's actually remember that Alten is experiencing somewhat of an interesting crowding financial situation, a very good one, actually. And it would be proper and fitting within our strategy to really know how to use our cash more effectively and this very healthy financial balance to carry out further investments. But on the other hand, sometimes we're being criticized. We're not going to rush and work on those projects, although we got two to three major projects and we're very cautious about those. Because we don't want to jeopardize our business. We're highly attached to our business model and our strategic consistency.
The general challenge for forthcoming years, and so far as the ALTEN plan is concerned, is about as follows. We need to really reach a critical size in all of the countries and in the flagship countries such as Germany, the United States, India, or the UK, or Japan. And really get close to 7,000-10,000 engineers as we were able to do so in France. Now, this is the quantitative aspect which is about our model. We need to stick to our model and our profitability structure. And number two, we need to really face up to the globalization of our customers. Our business, well, 60% is no longer local business. It's becoming international. Clients such as Stellantis and Airbus.
Some banks, some major international operators are no longer turning to ALTEN as a French company or Italian company or Polish company or Swedish company but as a world company, as a global player. As I said, they like to place ALTEN among their privileged subcontracting shortlist because we got a local presence and footprint and the ability to develop offshore activities when necessary in countries which we already mentioned which we have over 8,000 people with low cost and qualitative deliveries in Morocco, India, Romania, and Mexico. Now, having said that, the key to this is the size of the countries so as to be able to deploy our HR model. Number two, the ability to deal with customers in an international way. Now, that's to help country managers that are heads of BUs within ALTEN.
We generated cross-cutting layers so as to coordinate the commercial organization in all of those key countries in which we're going to be facing up to customers touching 5-6 different countries in a very unexpected way at times. The HR organization, we need to mobilize our managers for them to be able to switch from one country to the other and export the model as well as to be able to work on major projects, especially in the United States. And we sent off some French people over there in Canada as well, etc. The HR structure, we need to internationalize this. And another point so as to consolidate our positioning is no longer to we should import even highly packaged resources. I'm sorry, the interpreter did not hear the first part of the sentence as you may have already seen.
And so far as quality and margins, we're really one of the top players in engineering. [It] really represents over 60% on a project mode, so the deployment of our technical management on an international level. We actually almost finalized this. We're now integrating India. And we're coordinating everything. But this does not suffice. We also need to decouple our technical abilities with very clear office. Clients no longer want to consider ALTEN as a company being able to carry out a project with 100 or 300 people in technical matters. They also want expertise on issues they're starting to stop capitalizing on because they can actually find it through a subcontractor. Now, this again, this entails an organization with very specific skills based on offers. We identified about 12 different offers, whether technical offers or whether we're talking about sectoral offers. We set up teams of experts.
Now, of course, all those different costs, HR coordination, international coordination, commercial coordination, major accounts, and cross-cutting structures. We need to coordinate those offers on an international level. We need to depreciate those costs and surpass 8% EBIT with the improvement of our margins. Until now, we showed this to be done, it to be possible. As was already explained, the result of December 2023 is based on other calendar considerations or SG&A carrier considerations. This is our challenge. To get into really top players and really be able to compete with a major player such as ALTEN will be customers want us provided we got this international visibility. This is our challenge. Let's now go on to the next slide. The 70,000 consultants end of 2026 with the help of M&As, as I said, 6,000 over 2 years.
Now, we should be able to attain 70,000 engineers in December 2026 and maintain our margin beyond no sound, no sound.
[Foreign language] With our strategy. Oh, you're not getting the sound anymore?
Yes. Yeah, okay now.
Okay. Okay, perfect. So I'm sorry for the technical glitch. Now, so much for our strategy. It's very clear. Commercial coordination, technical coordination, HR coordination in critical-sized countries. And because of all those reasons, I'm very optimistic we are probably going to be reaching our objectives end of 2026 just to really surpass the 70,000 consultants.
Thank you for your attention. And Bruno and myself are now available to entertain any questions.
[Foreign language]
Nicolas David.
[Foreign language] Okay, can you hear me? Hello?
Yes, we can hear you.
[Foreign language]
We can't hear you now, but we could hear you before. Monsieur David? Yes, this is fine.
I have three questions. First one. [Foreign language] Can you hear me?
Yes, go ahead.
Okay, fine. Okay, coming back to the automotive sector, especially in Germany, we saw the manufacturers putting a lot of pressure on prices with restructuring plans, etc. What has been the impact? What should be the impact for ALTEN? They also want to go to the nearshore. Is this an opportunity for you to increase your market shares and to show your capacities? This is a question regarding the short-term vision, but also mid-term vision in this particular sector of the automotive.
This is a question pertaining to the 2024 margin profit. What would be the main blocks to foresee a greater profit in 2024 between prices, the calendar effect, and other elements? My last question pertaining to the free cash flow. Do you envisage to implement some processes or initiatives in order to increase the cash collection? You have a very healthy assessment, so it's not really an issue. But could this be seen as a way to value again our own EBIT and to be more comfortable in the future to do more M&A? We could envisage that the increase will continue over time, maybe a bit higher than what we saw 4 or 5 years ago.
Okay, thanks for your question, for the three questions, actually. Now, regarding the automotive sector in Germany, you're right.
If we look in details to what happened in Germany, we managed to maintain our level in a difficult context. But there were two phenomena up and down, down of a decrease of our income for Bosch and other equipments. And they suffered a lot. They stopped their investments, the CapEx. They're working mainly with applicative software systems, either systems. And they're positioning themselves on a massive offshoring, which is not the case in France. This is very local, unlike France. So for the main manufacturers, Volkswagen, BMW, Porsche, Audi, etc., something important is happening which should be useful for us, I believe, which is similar to what happened in France maybe some six, seven years ago. So at the moment, the pressure, financial pressure, and the international competition and the well management make people think, make the manufacturer thinks, and they want to offshore massively.
They were very conservative in the past, which was fine. They liked to keep their engineers, and we liked it to be the same in France. But that was not the case. It was 2/3 offshore, 1/3 local. Now, in Germany, it's not so much in offshore. And we're expecting in the years 2024, 2025, 2026 to see a relocation, an important relocation, to offshore and mainly to India, a little bit in Romania, but Romania is not as attractive as it was before. I think they want to go a bit further away. So we must support this movement. And we start thinking that, feeling that the main Indian company, major Indian companies are now really targeting Germany more than they are France. So that's what's coming up in Germany.
Now, it's up to us to really take on the bet, which we have managed to succeed with the manufacturers in Germany and see what will happen elsewhere. So that's for the first part of your question. Now, I'll let Bruno answer the other two questions regarding the 2024 profit and the free cash flow.
Now, 2024, the hypothesis is that we will have a superior profit to 2023. But for the moment, we don't have a precise figure. This is only the beginning of the year. We will see how it goes throughout the year. If this will be the case or not, we want to remain very careful. Our growth was only 2.5%. So the additional growth will come from the sequence growth of the group's activities.
We have reinforced and strengthened a number of structures, transversal structures for the commercial and offer part, which will continue in 2024. So the schedule is more favorable this year than it was last year. So that should have a positive effect on our profit on average. We have a bit less than two working days, one in France and other areas, but not the more profitable ones, but two days, less working days. So we are confident to improve our operating profit. So we've not been communicating on specific figures. We never really do this at the sum of the year. We do this later on in the year, either at the end or at the beginning of the second quarter or at the end of the second quarter. Now, regarding the free cash flow. Yes, you're right. ALTEN has got cash flow.
That's the reason why the incentives is favoring added value, creation of values and development, and not necessarily the cash flow collection. The issue is not so much to collect cash flow. Most of our main customers, clients, we don't have a lot of debts with them, and we do get cash in. We have clients who force us to have quarterly payments. Otherwise, you cannot be Tier 1. So we have service providers which are not Tier 1. If you give me some names, even though I don't like to give Orange, Airbus, we're having quarterly payments with these customers. We also have customers in the telecom field. They're asking for payments 180 days. Recently, we had two of those, which does not necessarily explain such a high DSO.
But unlike others, we don't have particular incentives as to the payment delays, etc., over time, which means we could probably improve our DSO by a few days. Even though our DSO is superior to what it should be by a few days, overall, we have very little loss. And as soon as it is invoiced, usually people issue the payment. So we're working on this. We launched an improvement initiative. This is a process which starts with the negotiation of the referencing or the orders, pre-financing or the financing of some packages, which can last several months for some of them, for which we have little financing per package. And when it comes to the payment, the admin sector has to play their part as well. So that's it for this question. Any other questions?
That was very clear. Thank you.
Now, for the German automotive sector, the answer was very clear from a vision point of view. Now, regarding the timing or the impact on the top line for ALTEN for 2024, 2025, should we consider as same as what happened in France? Even though you managed to see this offshore opportunity, there will still be an issue of average cost. Or is this rather an additional new business compared to things you did not have before?
So it will obviously be visible in the growth of the income. Now, in Germany, this is a new business opportunity, really. Historically speaking, we are not as well present as we were in France, for example. So I don't think it will show a decrease of our income. I think it will be more an arrival or a new opportunity.
It will be seen as new opportunities, new business, rather than a decrease.
Now, another question regarding Germany as well. Is there a risk to be overstaffed in Germany because of what you've just been saying with the offshore relocation?
So part of the activity, as we saw in France, which will be relocated in other geographies, not just in India, but the additional business that will come on top of that of the existing business will be new opportunities for development and more market shares. Unlike local German stakeholders, we are able to offer a local offer with German engineers with a capacity of offshore activities. And because we already have staff there, there is a high turnover. And we won't be facing this situation in Germany. We will be able to adapt our resources accordingly. Comme vous savez, on pilote un peu d'interventions à la semaine.
As you know, we are steering weekly contracts with some very specific indicators. The intercontract is always monitored with a maximum level that is acceptable. So we have the necessary resources.
[Foreign language] Okay, that was very clear. Thank you very much.
You're welcome.
Again, if you want to take part and ask questions, just simply raise your hands by clicking on the function. For people who are listening to us in the audio, you can also take part in the Q&A. You can also dial star nine to raise your hand, and then you can unmute with star six. I think there is a question now to Mr. and Mrs. Aditya Buddhavarapu Mr. We can't hear the question. We're not hearing anyone. I think there might be an issue with the mic, maybe. I don't know.
I will give the floor to number one, our second person. I don't know who this person is. If you would like to introduce yourself, what is your name?
Can you hear me now?
Yeah, we hear you.
Great. Morning, Bruno, Simon. Thanks for taking my questions. Just a few from my side. Can you firstly talk about what you're seeing in terms of the demand environment? What are you hearing from your clients in terms of the willingness to start new projects or spend, especially as you head into 2Q and the second half of the year? That's the first question. Second, can you talk about just on the margins? I know you said it's too early, but there were a few things last year, I think, which may not repeat this year.
I think on some previous calls, you talked about G&A costs, HR and sales investments going down in 2024. So could you just maybe talk about some of those maybe margin drivers for this year? And then finally, could you also maybe comment on the working day impact, if any at all, on 2024 in each quarter and maybe for the full year?
Aditya, I'm sorry. I didn't catch the last question.
Th e last one or all three?
Yes, the last one. Yeah, the last one, yes.
Yes, could you just talk for the working day impact on 2024 for 1Q, 2Q, 3Q, and 4Q?
Okay. Okay. So regarding your first question, there is no major trend regarding clients' behavior compared with Q4 or even Q3 2023. They are still cautious.
Still, we know that we will face difficulties at the banking sector, especially in France, but not only because of budget cuts. Well, the auto industry is expected to still perform well with some concern, as we say, in Germany, but also in Scandinavia, where also the work package business will probably increase for the same reasons. The civil aeronautics is doing well, like aero and Defense and Security. We have good news coming from customers. But all in all, we know that H1 will remain, I would say, in the same mood as H2 last year. And we don't really expect recovery, I mean, in terms of trend before H2 2024, which is pretty consistent with what our competitors are saying at the market. They saw exactly the same situation. Regarding G&A, HR spending, etc., it's true that they were above normal in 2023.
Of course, we have a plan to reduce those costs, at least as a percentage of the revenue in 2024. But it will depend, of course, on our achievements in terms of revenue. This is why I confirm that we will do better. But I cannot tell you now to what extent. It's much too early to say whether it could be 9.6, 9.8. No, it's too early to say. Regarding now 2024 compared with 2023, we are expecting at group level to have -0.5 in Q1, +0.5 in Q2. As a result, it will be a nil impact in H1. And then we will have in Q3 and Q4 1.2 and 1.1 additional days in 2024. So roughly above 2 days, as I said, in H2 and, accordingly, on a yearly basis.
Knowing that, the impact when we have two more days are in geographies where the revenue per head is much lower than in Europe. So this will have an impact also regarding the incremental revenue coming from those additional days. Just to tell you, in France, for example, we have two more days, and they are the two day we will have one more day, and the one more day is just in H 2.
Got it. Thank you, Bruno. Just one follow-up, if I can ask. You mentioned that in India, one of your customers decided to in-house the work they're doing. So it took about 1,400 engineers. Are you seeing that happening with other customers? Or can you talk about why that particular customer decided to move that in-house?
No, no. This was really a special case where that customer was trying to lower, I would say, the cost.
So he decided to insource part of the business and to subcontract to a partner, but with a very, very low margin, the rest of the business. This is why we decided to transfer the people. It has no cost for us. I mean, no severance pay, nothing. But we decided not to pursue due to the low margin expectations that customer was asking for. But we don't see that. We have no other example. On the contrary, we see more customers willing to outsource more and more.
Great. Thanks a lot, Bruno.
[Foreign language]
We got a question from Mr. Marcon.
[Foreign language] Hello. Can you hear me? Yes. We can. Great. Okay. It was challenging, but we made it. I got a few questions. France, very nice here 2023.
Perhaps should we take stock of what really worked well in France that really ensured 2023 growth in France? Is that sustainable in 2024? Number 2, SG&A going down. The sequential minus 1. Now, is this generated an embedded figure for 2024? And what is your visibility in this matter? Is there perhaps an extra effort to be made in the CNAs to really bring them up to normative level? Now, the interpreter did not hear the word BFR. EUR 105 million BFR in 2023. But when having a look at the BFR snapshot, the current snapshot of EUR 226 million, and EUR 21 million had already been out in first H1 2023. I'm having a hard time to understand how you can't carry the 105. Is that not current that actually turned into current? And why you got a lot more in H2?
Why is this amount in H2 so significant versus what we had already experienced in H1? Last, let's take the embedded growth at 2.5 points, which you mentioned.
Now, the rationale would be perhaps to start out with this embedded growth. This is supposed to generate more growth at the beginning of the year than end of the year, modular, what you said in H2. Now, embedded growth over 2.5, I believe you've never heard. Now, as far as the France business is concerned. The sectors that really were positive, most of it, well, it was actually the aerospace and defense sectors, the automotive sector, where we actually sped up the transformation process and were better positioned among manufacturers. The OEMs actually suffered, just like in Germany. No, not OEMs. I'm sorry, but I did not hear. And finally, energy cost went down with EPR programs.
When I was making a few comments on the PI, the sectoral sector or PI, the service-related services or sectors, bank finance, and so on and so forth, really slowed down and slightly went down. So much for those sectors that really pushed up the activity in France. So forth, the embedded, we did not have a nice growth in H2. In other words, 2024 embedded is not really great. We'll have to conquer things in 2024. And in January, it's perhaps too early to draw conclusions. But basically, we're going to be conquering growth, not on the basis of the embedded, 2023 embedded, knowing that growth was better in H1 than H2. So mathematically speaking, Bruno actually gave out more details.
Now, embedded growth at the beginning of the year is lower than what it used to be at the beginning of the year 2023, be that as of May. Of course. 2.5%. 2.5% embedded growth throughout the year is mechanically higher at the beginning of the year than it is at the end of the year. Because we actually base ourselves on the average. So we'll be above the 2.5% in terms of organic growth. I mean, that makes sense. But as Derric Marcon was saying, the embedded growth of the year, 2.5% forces us to really fish for sequential growth at the beginning of the year, to reach an acceptable and satisfactory growth objective. Now, let's get back to the question or answer the question regarding the dynamics. France growth 2023. Simon responded. Now, the rates were reaching year 2023.
We are not going to be reaching them in 2024, although the dynamics are good in the sectors which Simon mentioned. But we're not going to keep generating at 30% on RO or 25 in 2024 after having attained those levels in 2023, the growth rates. No, they're not going to be attainable in those sectors. Now, and so forth, the financial aspect, G&A. Yes. Well, we did less in H2. We're going to be embedding them in 2024 identically, with the objective of improving what we generated in H2 and do it in 2024. This is daily work now. Now, earnouts. Payments were made in H2. And there was some quite a bit of a time discrepancy because we negotiated with sellers because earnouts are calculated on the basis of EBITs that are subject to adjustments. So this is subject to negotiations and agreement protocols signed by both parties.
Now, indeed, the earnout, EUR 105 million in 2023, which is more important than what we had in previous years. Now, just to create a bridge here, we had EUR 160 million or EUR 165 million of earnouts at the end of 2022. And we actually now got. I'm sorry, EUR 46 million end of 2023. So we realized that, proportionally speaking, it went down quite significantly.
Now, okay, Bruno, this is quick, but can you give us the breakdown of this EUR 45 million figure? Because this is info something we only have in the annual report.
Oh, well, that's not really that hard. There should be EUR 1 million of current or 0.8, and the rest I did not hear.
The interpreter did not hear. I'm sorry. The sound is muffled.
46.2, that's the total figure.
Okay. Thank you very much.
40 million are going to be used to pay EUR 40 million is going to be used to pay in Q1. We're going to have to pay it in Q1.
We got another question from Monsieur Daure.
Yes. Hello, Simon, Bruno. Can you hear me?
Yes. Yeah, we can hear you, Laurent.
Okay. I have three points which I wanted to get back to. Now, let's talk about the automotive subcontractors. About 18% of the revenues at the group level. Can we have perhaps a mix between manufacturers and subcontractors? And is there a risk in Germany, perhaps, in other sectors? I also have some feedback on one client, FORVIA, who expressed himself well, they talked about their future projects in R&D. This is quite a source of concern. Could we have info on the size of that client? That's the first point. Number two, we did not talk about AI.
Now, the discussions you have on AI with your customers, what is the result? Is there a risk of reinsourcing because of AI? And finally, the third point, with respect to the offshore process in the automotive sector, most especially, could that make it possible for some Indian companies to take part in bids for tender more so and perhaps put some additional price pressure and perhaps gain some new contracts as a result?
Now, in so forth, the 18%, 70/30, I would have said 3.5% in the Tier 1. So we're talking about OEMs here more than anything else. And as a matter of fact, with OEM in Tier 1 I mean, this was mostly in Germany, and that's where we suffered more in Germany. And 50/50 between Tier 1 and OEM in Germany. This was outlandish and really hurt in Germany.
We had to really create some more pressure, exert some more pressure on manufacturers, on makers. Now, with respect to your question here, in so far as the Indians emerging, yes, they're ramping up and quite a lot in Germany. They're trying to take up markets and positions among major German manufacturers, and they're quite successful in this endeavor. One company carried out extraordinary performances in the software development for automotive makers, the Lotus Peugeot, an Indian company. So we really are facing up to them systematically. They're referenced. And when I say that clients want to be with European players or ALTEN and others, it doesn't mean that they're going to be setting Indians aside. No, no. And in a major market, we had to face two other major Indian entities in the US. Same thing in the UK, and the same thing in Germany.
We see them a lot. They're quite aggressive and forceful on M&As in Germany. They really press us up in M&As in the automotive sector in Germany among OEMs. Why? Because what do they want? They want to buy the references and end up on local resources because they're unable to manage it and really transfer everything back to India. So, of course, and to answer your question, yes, we need to really cope with them. But we're not concerned because if we are able to come up with a good response, sometimes, well, our message is actually more positive. And so forth, Tier 1s, and most especially for FORVIA, we're not that present, I believe. 0.3% turnover. Now, this is not more dangerous on our side than it would have happened among Bosch or others in Germany.
And AI, artificial intelligence, and the discussions, customers that are now using artificial intelligence, I believe that this is an early stage still. But in the medium term and the next five years, the use for productivity gains among customers, could this jeopardize the outsourcing rate of R&D? Now, as usual, technological evolution. And we saw, we witnessed others in the last five years never actually generated a lower. I'm sorry, I did not hear the word. It just changed the nature of needs and the type of services, for example, with object-based methods in the '80s and '90s, for example, with internet and the emergence of data centers and a whole gamut of other things in the years 2000. This does not prevent the need to engineer and outsource and maintain the problem. It's not so good. This is not the issue.
We'll often be able to cope with the need. This is the issue at hand. We got two ways of actually reacting to this. Yes, we will need to change our work methods. This perhaps will well, the software development process actually, time will go down. But there are quite a number of other things that will actually pop up here and there. I'm not concerned. We need to be coping with the new needs that will be emerging as a result. We're talking about all those different budgets, which major companies are spending EUR 3 billion here and there, investing in generative AI. Those budgets, well, there are three ways of coping with those budgets. Number one budget, in other words, train people that are going to be working on those issues on generative AI. They need to be cognizant of those new methods and tools.
Now, if you consider companies that want to train 100,000 people in India or elsewhere and EUR 5,000 per person in delivery centers, now, all you got to do is do the calculus. This is going to be costing EUR 500 million. Yes. This is going to cost EUR 500 million. And if 200,000, this is going to be costing EUR 1 billion. So we'll also have to train quite a number of people. And we evaluated the number, 2,000 people. And hence, update them on existing projects. But as a matter of fact, in the ALTEN model people are not really seniorized. The age average is 30. We recruited 50% of seniors from people from major schools. And those people don't really need to be trained.
All they got to be all they need is experience and be more cognizant of our new projects and packages with offshore and major Indian companies. Now, our investment to really put our teams up to date will not be as important as the investments made by Indian companies. Now, number one. The second investment we'll have to make is to convince our customers that we can develop, that we are able to utilize the new tools. We already have demands. We already carry out projects. Either those are POCs or tests, which customers are asking from us. We'll have a lot more. We'll also have to make those as training platforms to prove our customers that we are able to utilize those tools.
Now, this represents an investment, an important investment, which is going to really come with a price tag, not a very, very high. We really put all of our technical competencies on the table. The third, which we're not going to do at ALTEN because we're going to be doing this with focus. We're going to be developing our generative solutions or tools. Major companies are going to be behaving as editors and publishers and have their own tools. Apparently, two major Indian entities are gearing into that direction. So we're not going to necessarily be users of Microsoft's or Google's solutions. We're just going to have their own offers. We're going to be using and buying tools available on the market depending on what customers want because things might change from one customer to the other. Number two, we're going to be training our people.
I don't know if I'm giving you a clear answer to the question. This will have to work in this direction. We're not really that concerned. I mean, this is not a major revolution.
Oh, the answer was very clear, Simon. Perhaps a very last point here. Oh, a question with regards to the evolution here, the impact of the margins. Right. That aerospace and defense will continue to develop further, quicker than other sectors. Will there be a consequence on the margin profit mix?
So the answer is that it's not per sector, even though some sectors might be less profitable. But it's mainly per client, actually. And in the aerospace sector, we have profits which are not superior to or inferior to other sectors. So that was another question. So there will be no incidents on the profit to answer that question.
There's another question from Mr. Blain.
Yes. Hello. Can you hear me?
Yes, we do. I'm so sorry I can't see you.
It's not great. Yeah, it's nice when you can see face to face. But during our last meeting, there was a discussion about this. And we decided to have this as usual. But we saw so few people last time that we decided to go back to conference calls. But I think there were probably less than 15 people present, maybe 15-20. That's why we decided to go back to conference calls. But maybe a mix will be good. Now, two questions. First question, acquisitions, EUR 121 million, EUR 95 million of sales revenue with the amount to get to the acquisition price of those EUR 95 million.
Yes, but watch out. The figures which you mentioned do not pertain to acquisitions of 2024 or 2023, rather.
It's also some earn-out periods over a period of three years consecutive, three years, 2021, 2022, 2023, like a major acquisition of 2021. So Bruno can give you more detail about this. But the down payment, don't talk about the amount.
Yes, exactly. Down payment is without the earn-out. The earn-out sometimes runs over two or three years. Underlying the normative EBIT of the acquisitions, what will be the ratio?
Usually, we buy companies. We tried. We tried at least until 2021 to buy companies on a multiple of 8x or 6x for first payment and the equivalent of a multiple of 2x for the earn-out part. But now, we had to increase it significantly of 10x, the multiple of 10x, 20, 25% of earn-out.
Thank you. Also, maybe a bit of a silly question now. Could we have a bit more granularity? I say silly because there are many regions which are so different one to another regarding the trends of salaries, of the payroll of the teams.
Yeah, in 2021, 2022, we had an explosion of turnover rate of the employees up to 33%-34%. That was not homogeneous. This was mainly those who were between two to five years of experience. Below two years, these are young people who just joined. They are juniors. But after five years of experience, they were more cautious. So it was really people between two to five years of experience. So we implemented a new HR plan in 2022, 2023 to retain people with an increase of salaries in a targeted way, especially for these people, those who had specialties and talents that we want people we wanted to keep at all costs. So we have reviewed this.
In 2023, there was a double effect with an investment of the plans which we had implemented in 2022 and also the market which came down a bit. So we went down to 30%, around 28% today, which is still high, a high rate turnover.
Yes, it's quite high, actually, very high. Yeah, the norm for Alten is between 25%-27%. Less than 20% is and more than 30% is concerned. So our goal is to be between the two. The engineers who we're hiring, 40% are juniors from schools, coming out of the schools. They're around 25, 26 years old. And then the rest of them are people between 2-5 years of experience. Normally, they stay 4 years at Alten.
We try to capture about 10% of the engineers who have 5-6 years of experience who would be the more evolutive one to become head of a project, project managers or experts within our directorate of practices and offers. So that's only 10%. The rest of them, it's not so much simply because we can't pay them more. So we are slowing down the increase of these populations that have not been able to step up within ALTEN. And that's the way it is.
So do they leave to go to our customers?
Yes, often. Often, they go there to find new outcomes.
What about the pay raises? If we have an indicator that would be between young people who just left school, would they be paid more? Has it gone down a bit or not?
Now, if we look at 2021, 2022, 2023, depending on the different levels of experience of the juniors, about 10%-12%. We managed to catch up this with our customers. This stabilized in 2023. It was mainly in 2021 and 2022. It's no longer a topic for 2024. No, for 2024, we will reach about 3% when we will manage to ventilate this on the prices, on the costs, and the productivity of our packages. Our clients broke the ice. Before, the goal was to decrease the daily tariff. That was mainly for technical assistance. Now, for projects, it's up to us really to have a good productivity and technical quality in order to have the best prices possible. We managed to do that. We were able to follow the market in terms of pay rises.
One last point out of regarding the pay raise. Is there a trend to accelerating the salaries with offshore? I heard about a significant pay raise in Romania. I don't know about India.
Yes, in the offshore countries, mainly Romania, India, Morocco, and Mexico as well in the U.S. Yes, of course. And also, Portugal, actually, is doing quite a bit of offshore. Yes, there is an increase of salaries slightly more important except for Romania, which went much faster. But in the other countries, be it India, Morocco, and Mexico, it was in the same level, same level than in the West. Romania is more of an issue. People who had targeted Romania are now going to India.
Okay, thank you. Thank you very much.
You're welcome.
One last question. Over the phone, please identify who you are. That will be our last question for today.
Yes, hello. Most of my points have been tackled already. Maybe one last thing. I did not quite understand the M&A pack, the visibility for S1. Practically speaking, what kind of income are we talking about?
Okay, overall, we are well ahead for at least 2,000 engineers for M&A with a bit less than EUR 20 million. Sorry, a bit less than. Okay, one is an offshore company. So it would be about a bit less than EUR 100 million of income, revenue.
Okay, clear. Thanks. Okay, you're welcome. I think we will stop now.
So thank you all for taking part. Thank you for your questions. Bruno and I, as usual, are available even though there might have been questions which were not raised today. Please do not hesitate to come back to us.
I hope we've answered most of the questions and answered the visibility which you were expecting from us for 2024, 2025, and 2026 in order to keep our targets. Thank you. Have a nice day and a nice weekend. Thank you all. Bye-bye.