Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Forvia Q3 2020 conference call. At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker presentation, there will be a question- and- answer session from the web and phone lines. To ask a question during the session, you need to press star one on your telephone. I must advise you that this conference is being recorded today. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Michel Favre. Please go ahead, sir. To you.
Thank you. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you for attending this conference call. I am with Olivier Durand, our Deputy CFO, Marc Maillet and Anne-Sophie Jugean, our investor relations team. I will present our sales figure for the third quarter. The press release was posted this morning at 7:30 A.M. Paris time on our website. The slideshow that I am now going to comment is also available on our website. Starting with page two, our sales in the quarter were significantly better than previously expected, at EUR 3.9 billion, supported by improved market conditions. This showed a strong quarter-after-quarter sequential improvement, as well as a month-after-month sequential improvement as well, with the month of September up 1.2% year-on-year. Q3 sales were strong in China, up 15.4% on an organic basis.
By activity, our sales outperformed the market in Seating and e-Mobility, which represent combined 65% of group sales, while Interiors and Clarion Electronics, which represent combined 35%, underperformed the market. I will go back on that. Thanks to this improved environment, but also thanks to the positive effects of all our resilience measures, we can upgrade our H2 2020 initial guidance that was given on July 27th. I will detail this new guidance at the end of the presentation. Let's start with the review of our Q3 sales on page four. As I have mentioned, and as illustrated on this slide, our sales in the quarter benefited from a strong sequential improvement with Q3 organic sales down 7% after 19.7% in Q1, and -50% in Q2.
Drivers were stock rebuilding, mainly in North America, and quick recovery of car purchasing by individuals who preferred to take their cars in order to go to work. We can also see on this slide that our Q3 sales improved month-after-month, and that the month of September, as I mentioned, posted a 1.2% organic growth compared to last year. Slide five shows Q3 sales figures at group level. On a reported basis, our Q3 sales were down 7.4%. Currencies had a negative impact of EUR 135 million, mainly US dollars and Chinese yuan versus euro. Scope effect was positive at EUR 117 million or plus 2.8% with the strong contribution of SAS, EUR 160 million since 1st of February. The negative contribution of EUR 43 million from Clarion.
If you remember, in Q3 2019, sales took into account four months, July to September, plus June catch up, as we had to upgrade Clarion closing process to match the Forvia's agenda. On an organic basis, sales were down 7%, representing an underperformance of 210 basis points compared to worldwide automotive production. That dropped year on year by 4.9%, according to IHS. This included an unfavorable geographic mix, which represented a negative impact of around 40 basis points, and lower tooling sales, which represented an additional negative impact of around 30 basis points. As already mentioned, this evolution in the quarter reflected the underperformance of Interiors and Clarion Electronics, while Seating and Clean Mobility outperformed the market. Let us start with the review of Q3 sales by activity on page six, with Seating and Interiors.
Firstly, Seating, whose sales amounted to EUR 1,500,000,000, down 4.5% on a reported basis, including a negative currency effect of EUR 34 million or -2.1%. Seating organic sales were down 2.3%, outperforming the market by 260 basis points. This outperformance was driven by all three of Forvia's major regions. As from Q3 2020, Seating sales are no longer impacted by the end of production, mainly Daimler, that had a negative impact in the previous quarters. Conversely, significant new programs will start as from Q2 2021. Main one is the Jeep Grand Wagoneer and will boost Seating outperformance as from next year. Secondly, Interiors, whose sales amounted to EUR 1,170,000,000, down 2.4% on a reported basis. It included a negative currency effect of EUR 49 million and the positive contribution from SAS. Interiors organic sales were down 11.6%, representing an underperformance of 670 basis points.
Sales in the quarters were strongly penalized by lower tooling sales, down 45% due to delayed program in Europe, North America, and China. Excluding this impact, product sales were down 8.5%, underperforming the market by 360 basis points. This underperformance of product sales was only attributable to Europe, impacted by lower content, mainly for Daimler, new model, and temporarily unfavorable product mix with PSA. Now on Page seven, Clean Mobility and Clarion Electronics. Clean Mobility sales amounted to EUR 1.023 billion, down 8.2% on a reported basis. It included a negative currency effect of EUR 46 million, or - 4.1%. On an organic basis, Clean Mobility sales were down 4.1%, outperforming the market by 80 basis points. This outperformance was driven by double-digit sales growth in China.
Commercial vehicle sales evolution was contrasted, also in line with market regional sales evolution for this segment, with double-digit growth in China and double-digit drop both in Europe and North America. Clarion Electronics sales amounted to EUR 181 million, down 40% on a reported basis, including a negative currency effect of EUR 7 million and the negative scope mentioned before for EUR 43 million. Clarion Electronics organic sales were down 23%, significantly underperforming the market. This underperformance was mostly attributable to the unfavorable customer mix of Clarion, highly impacted by the sales decline of its major customer, Nissan. This effect will continue to impact sales in Q4, but will gradually disappear in 2021. We have 12 major startup of production between the last quarter and the first half 2021.
Forvia Clarion, due to that, is on track to overachieve its order intake target and clearly to, I will say, resume growth in 2021. When I say growth, it will be a significant growth. Let's now move to the review of Q3 sales by region on Page eight, with Europe and North America. Sales in Europe amounted to EUR 1,728 million, down 7.9% on a reported basis. It included a negative currency effect of EUR 21 million and the positive scope for EUR 88 million. Organic sales in Europe were down 11.5%, underperforming the market by 360 basis points. This underperformance is mainly due to Interiors and the double-digit drop in sales for Clean Mobility commercial vehicle. Of course, the main driver for that is the tooling drop.
I will say, in general, many startup of production were delayed to the last quarter, but mainly to the first half 2021, with a direct consequence on our level of tooling and prototype sales. Sales in North America amounted to EUR 1.1 billion, down 3.3% on a reported basis. The negative currency effect amounted to EUR 37 million and was fully compensated by the positive scope of EUR 37 million. Organic sales in North America were down 3.3%, underperforming the market by 360 basis points. This underperformance was attributable to the double-digit drop in sales for Clean Mobility commercial vehicles, and to a lower extent, to lower sales to Nissan and Clarion Electronics. Now on page nine, Asia and South America. Sales in Asia amounted to EUR 903 million, down 4.2% on a reported basis.
It included a negative currency effect of EUR 34 million and a negative scope effect of EUR 9 million. Organic sales in Asia were up 0.4%, strongly outperforming the market by 450 basis points. This strong outperformance was, of course, driven by sales in China, whose organic sales were up 15.4%, strongly outperforming the market by 850 basis points. This mainly reflected stronger performance of Seating and Clean Mobility in the country, with sales to international OEMs, new customers, and commercial vehicles. Sales in South America amounted to EUR 106 million, down 42.9% on a reported basis. It included a negative currency effect of EUR 36 million due, of course, to the Brazilian real versus EUR, and a limited scope of EUR 2 million. Organic sales in South America were down 24.7%, underperforming the market by 430 basis points.
It mainly reflected sales drop in Brazil and the gradual exit from Argentina. We closed the seating plant this summer in Argentina. Let's move on page 11 for the H2 guidance. Considering improved market condition, as illustrated by the better-than-expected recovery of the market, we now expect worldwide automotive production to drop in the mid-single digit in H2. As a reminder, our previous market assumption for H2, as communicated on July 27th, was a market down around 15%. Based on this updated market assumption, and thanks to the confirmed positive effects of measures deployed to further increase resilience, we can revise upwards our financial target for H2.
Our H2 sales should reach at least EUR 8 billion versus around EUR 7.6 billion expected previously. Our H2 operating margin should reach at least 5.5% of sales versus around 4.5% previously. For the cash flow, at least EUR 700 million versus around EUR 600 million.
This confirms fully the sensitivity I gave you, if you remember, of 1% additional sales, more or less EUR 70 + million of sales, minimum EUR 15 million of operating margin, the same of cash. We are totally in line on track with all our plans, even better. Let me conclude this presentation with slide 12. Our sales in the quarter were significantly better than previously expected. Consequently, and also thanks to the positive effect of our measures, we have upgraded our H2 guidance. We are totally on track to achieve the sales, the profitability, and the cash ambition for 2022. I remind you that the main driver will be our EUR 200 million cost-cutting plan for the fixed cost between 2019 and 2022. Finally, a word on the expected spin-off of Forvia.
According to the amendments announced on September 14th by PSA and FCA, the stake of 46% of Forvia currently held by PSA is to be distributed to all Stellantis shareholders after completion of the merger. PSA and FCA expect measure completion to take place by the end of Q1, and considering the minimum time period required for the approval process, the spin-off of Forvia could happen, should happen, in Q2 2021 at the latest. It will contribute to significantly increase and globalize the company's free float, and of course, the liquidity. Thank you for your attention. The floor is yours. Nadia, can you now go to the Q&A session, please?
Thank you ladies and gentlemen we now begin the question-and-answer session. As a reminder if you wish to ask a question please press star one on your telephone. If you wish to cancel your request please press the hash key. Once again press star one if you wish to ask a question. Your first question comes from the line of Sascha Gommel from Jefferies. Please ask a question.
Good morning. Thank you for taking my question. The first one would actually be on your guidance upgrade. I understand that you upgrade the earnings with the drop-through. I was wondering if you can also comment on the cash flow upgrade? I would have thought that when your top line develops a lot better than you expected, that you also have more of a working capital inflow. It seems you only upgraded the free cash flow guidance in line with the earnings upgrade. I was wondering if you can comment on that? That was my first question.
Thank you, Sasha, and good morning. It was inside. I was a sensitivity. As you know, we have a negative cash flow consumption of working capital, EUR 680 million, if I'm not mistaken, in the first half. We were committed to recover that in the second half, and probably the small last part in H1. This was due to the difference between the customer terms and the supplier terms, 25 days. If you remember, our level of inventories was high due to the lockdown, because it was difficult to viabilize the inventories mainly in March. We were doing only a part of it. We have the advantage is that in the second half, we are making significant improvement of the inventory. Everything is going on the right way. What I can tell you is that end of September, a very big part has been already recovered.
It is why we are totally confident that the working capital will represent a very significant cash flow in, cash in second half. If I can give you, it will be probably more than 70% of the consumption. When I say 70%, it's a very cautious evaluation. It is why all indicators are going on the right way.
Understood. Thank you. The second question would actually be on your outperformance in Q4. Do you think it will be on a similar level? In that context, maybe you can also comment on the Interiors weakness. Is that something that will continue for the next couple of quarters? The kind of model launches from VW and Daimler remain, and the mix at PSA remains as well.
It's a tricky question because what we see is that we have contrasted evolution. As you know that some car makers have consumed inventories at a quicker pace than others. Some, like I can mention that PSA have restarted a little later, and have a very active month of September, and will probably rebuild some inventories in the last quarter. All of this means that we will have different drivers of that. Mix will change. What I will say is that we will be very probably, at least due to the tooling, much closer to the trend of the market. One thing, we were thinking, to be honest, that the trend of the market was minus 6%. We have seen the figure of IHS. We have still to understand customer by customer, why we have this difference of assumption, to be clear.
I think it's the same for you, because we are a little surprised by the minus four, so we have to understand everything. Clearly the trend is positive. Interiors is lagging, and will continue to lag due to some smaller contents, mainly the S-Class, because we have stopped the instrument panel due to the pricing. We are not in the instrument panel. We are in the center console and door panel, but not in the instrument panel. We have this small impact, but anyway, we are very confident to resume out-performance in, I will say, 2021.
Understood. That brings me actually to my last question. Do you have any thoughts on 2021 at this point?
With all you have seen now, what is the mood? You're asking me too much. We are making our budget with a very reasonable figure on, I will say, worldwide volume. With 76 million vehicles, if I'm not mistaken. We want our people to work on cost, to work, and to continue to be very disciplined. I would like, sorry, Sasha, but to thank everybody, because everybody in this group is on track with the revised budget and with our 2022 plan, which is, I think, very important, and we continue to deliver.
Appreciate that. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Your next question comes from the line from Giulio Pescatore, from Exane. Please ask your question.
Hello. Thank you for taking my question. The first one would be, if you can elaborate a bit more on the drivers of the underperformance in Interiors. Is there anything more structural going on there, or it's something that is very likely to reverse next year? Maybe on the efficiencies and the cost measures you have taken, can you maybe explain to us how much of those efficiencies are structural and how much will reverse next year? The last question on CapEx, can you update us on your plan for CapEx and how much of the CapEx that you have taken off the guidance this year would be covered over the next years?
Thank you, Giulio. You're welcome, because I know that you are just taking back the Exane.
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you for your questions. Underperformance. Clarion, I have confirmed in the speech that with all the startup of production, we will have a significant growth next year. Our budget is clearly feeding, which we have said before, is that we will be close to EUR 1 billion of sales for Clarion next year. You see, the big move that will happen, of course, big part is due to the order intake that we have relaunched, I will say in 2019. Second thing, seating, we are very positive. We are even surprised, to be honest, by the outperformance of this second half, which is higher than expected. We have very big, I will say, start of production. Main one is by far the Jeep Grand Wagoneer, EUR 350 million on a yearly basis, starting probably between April and May. This will clearly accelerate the seating outperformance.
Clean Mobility, if I exclude the commercial vehicles, on the light vehicles, we are outperforming, and we have a good figure in Europe. I know that there are always some fear in Europe, but thanks to our strong market share on the hybrid, we have a good figure everywhere on light vehicles. Commercial vehicles, and you know that will probably restart. It is an early KPI, as you know, to say that global output will go back to growth. Of course, there is always a problem of shutdown. I think that commercial vehicles will be probably a very good driver for the growth in 2021 for Clean Mobility. The last is Interiors. Interiors will go back to more normal level of toolings. We have this customer mix issue, and customer mix and some content issues.
We are thrilled to underperform the market in the last quarter and slightly, but I will say probably lower than the first quarter. To be, it is our budget, to be only in line with the market for 2021. It is currently our view, of course, this will be fed by, I will say, more precise assumption for the market, I will say month after month. Going to cost efficiency. We have to be cautious because, of course, we are reducing the fixed cost, and we explain that by much more than our, I will say, recurrent point of view. We have always, and which will be the same when we will disclose the figures, to be very cautious on what is recurrent and what is only the normal measures, including some with the downtime, for instance, which are to face this crisis.
Even if today we have no more downtime. What we want to check in the budget is that the resilient fixed cost reduction will be at least EUR 150 million in 2021 respect to 2019. It is what we have said, what we have actions, what we have restructuring, what we will clearly check and deliver in order to secure the EUR 200 million on which we are committed. For CapEx, we reduced a lot this year. It's a fact. That means that you can take a figure of something like around EUR 450 million. A part is due to the fact that we have frozen, even canceled, some CapEx of capacity. We don't need capacity today, we have to be clear. We have as well the postponement of programs. This has a temporary, I will say, consequence.
Lower CapEx in H2. Of course, this will come back in H1 2021. My guidance for H1 for 2021, will be probably to come back to a level of EUR 550 million, even slightly more. We have to decide according to our different priorities and projects. It is a kind of level. It will start to go back to a more normal level. In our assumption for 2022 onwards, we are back to EUR 600 million, even slightly more. This is as well according to the big order intake that we are taking, that of course, we will have to feed with the right CapEx.
Okay, very clear. Thank you.
Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Thomas Besson from Kepler. Please ask your question.
Thank you very much. I'll have two questions, please. The first one is, could you come back on the programs postponed, notably in seating, and give us the sequence that you're expecting now? If I remember correctly, broadly 12 months ago, you were expecting seating to start picking up in Q4 this year, and now you're talking about Q2. Can you remind us the main programs and when you anticipate them to start? That would be the first question. The second is a bit tough, and I apologize for that. You're talking about 8% margin in 2022, 5.5% + in H2, and if I understand correctly, your budget for 2021 is broadly two times H2 2020 in terms of volumes. How do we bridge 5.5% +- 8% with only relatively minimum increase in volumes, Michel?
[Foreign language] Thomas.
Bonjour.
As usual, you are quite challenging. Which is normal. Thank you for that. I don't have all the dates, but the main postponement was the Jeep Wrangler.
Yeah.
The Jeep Wrangler initially should have started November. It has been postponed to February. Now it is more May. I don't know, I think these figures are public. Well, clearly the main reason was the lockdown, but not only. It was the first one. You know that we have the C-Class Daimler frame platform. Same thing. Daimler postponed some, I will say, new models on that. It was a significant number of months. We have a Nissan Frontier competitor, same thing, it was postponed. It is why sometimes, if you go back to what I had declared in the past, I was a little probably too positive due to this startup of production of some new businesses. Whatever, I think the figure of Seating is not bad.
Showing as well that the content that we have, probably we are helped by the mix, but the content is, I will say, improving. Now, going to your questions about the 5.5%, et cetera. Well, first, surely you know that, we have, of course, a margin of maneuver of the 5.5%, we say minimum 5.5%. I think it's obvious. Don't ask me what is the value that we have in our forecast, but of course it's better than that. The second thing, we have the cost-cutting program. Third, we have, I will say, the expected outperformance, which will help a lot. We have built all of this, and it is like this that we will go into the 2022. If you remember, we have a market as well assumption, 2022 is based on 82 million vehicles respect to 76 for next year.
It is a significant figure of 8%. You know that 8% will help a lot. Well, if you allow me, one contributor will be Clarion. I can today, again, confirm, it was presented moreover to the board yesterday, the Clarion business plan. We confirm that Clarion is targeting at least 3% of operating margin next year and around 6% in 2022.
Very good.
Clarion will help, as you know, by the new, I will say, production.
Very clear. Thank you, Michel.
Thank you, Thomas.
Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Horst Schneider from Bank of America. Please ask your question.
Hey, Michel. Good morning. It's Horst here from Bank of America. Quickly, as an add-on to Thomas' question. I want to understand, because you say sales at least 18 in H2 and at least operating margin of 5% of sales, and also the same for cash flow, at least 700 million EUR. Any upside is more linked to better sales, or it can be also linked to extra cost-cutting and some other items driving the profits? That's number one. Number two, I want to understand, because you do a fairly high level of sales in China, do you see any signs of market weakness maybe, or are there good reasons to assume that the strengths of the Chinese market will continue, not just in the fourth quarter, also in Q1?
I know we have got a very low comp base in H1 in China. I just want to understand what the run rate development is there. Thank you.
Thank you, Horst. Good morning. The sensitivity I gave is working very well. You can take, first is the drop-through of 23%, which is the minimum. Second, according to volumes, as the EUR 70 million, 15 twice, operating margin in cash is working very well. Like this, I think I am giving you too much.
Forvia reforecast on H2.
No, that's fine.
Well, I cannot be more precise. You see why we have today this position of maneuver. We are today more cautious than IHS on the last quarter. We think that there are the presidential elections. There is this famous Chinese New Year, where we don't know what could be the impact that it will be two weeks late. What I receive from China is not negative.
It's the only thing I can tell you. We have today strong EDI. We have figures which are showing. Not the outperformance of the first quarter, but we are more cautious. Not the magnitude, because it was very high, but anyway, underperformance. Today, we are very positive on China. After that, I cannot say what could happen, what could be the some consequences, because we think that the trade war between China and U.S. will continue, whatever the result of the U.S. elections, because the deficit is too much. It could disturb, but anywhere, the Chinese mood is positive. What will be very important, what we are expecting, it will be the disclosure of the new five-year plan. You know that it will be normally late November, early December.
We expect that there will be a big, I will say, part on the hydrogen. It is important because as you know, the group is more and more exposed to hydrogen. Now, it is a long-term story. We are convinced that it will be a very successful story.
All right. Thanks for that. Maybe I can squeeze in a last one. You don't expect any change in payment behavior of the OEMs, right? It's a normal pattern, basically, that we will have towards end of the year, right?
If you say measure, no measure. Of course, we have pressure. We see pressure. I was called 2 months ago to say that to get this business, we need to accept a new payment term. I said no, and we got the business. We are not flexible on that. We see some customers trying to put pressure on that. It will be a permanent pressure, as you know that, as we are doing with our suppliers.
All right. Thank you.
No major impact for the moment.
Okay, thanks.
Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of José Asumendi from JP Morgan. Please ask your question.
Good morning, Michel. It's José, JP Morgan. Very quick items, please. The first one, operating leverage 2021, how should we think about it versus 2020, please, directionally? Second question, please. global output production, fourth quarter. Can you give us, on a global basis, how do you think about the fourth quarter in terms of production? The third item, please, working capital, second half 2020, where do you stand currently in terms of the reversal in working capital? Thank you.
Thank you, José . Good morning. Operating leverage, we are making our budget. Our ambition, what we would like to commit to the market is above 20%. Probably a figure closer to what we are doing currently. Clearly, big part will be fed by some, what we call, hot water. That means products starting at the right margin. That means above 7%, close to 8%. Second, of course, our fixed cost reduction. Production, we are more cautious. IHS is below minus four. We think probably it will be more - 6%. We'll see. That is what we think as the last quarter.
A quarter close to the quarter of last year. Clearly, in the measures and in the control we are making with our teams is to, of course, have the right drop-through respect to budget, but to have the right drop-through, of course, respect to the figures of last year. Request of working capital, as I said, at least, I will say 70% of EUR 680 million, so something like EUR 500 million reversal.
Very clear. Thank you very much, Michel. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Your next question comes from the line of Stephen Reitman from Société Générale . Please ask your question.
Good morning, Michel. It's Stephen from Société Générale . A question really about pricing pressures and the like. You mentioned the Mercedes business that you'd lost on the S-Class, which seems to be a pattern here because obviously there was a seating issue as well on the GLE, GLS last year, which didn't end too well, I guess, for Mercedes. Would you say this is just part of a normal kind of pattern of wins and losses? Or do you think there is more pressure coming from the OEMs now on pricing that you are just putting your foot down and being resistant to?
Thank you, Stephen. Good morning. You know that with customers, we have some up and downs. There was some tension with Daimler in 2013, 2014, with some difficulties, operational repricing, whatever. The time until 2016 was not positive to get business. In this context, we have lost some businesses, and it was as well the context of the RFQ for the S-Class, because the S-Class was delayed. As you know, probably, we said several times. We have taken with Daimler some significant businesses in the last three years. The main one is the famous frames of the C-Class and Viano. We will have a nice growth with Daimler in the next two to three years. It's what I can mention.
As usual, decisions taken today, for instance, will have mainly an impact in two years and more in three years, four years time. It's life. We will have, with Daimler and BMW, some significant growth in the future, as we have today with Tesla. Tesla, we are taking a lot of businesses. Tesla will have a significant growth between today until 2022. It's a normal life. We have, which is good, a vision of what is happening, plus or minus. Of course, after that, it depends of the timing and the success of the different products. The story with Daimler will be positive.
Right. On the subject of Tesla as well, clearly, they are talking about significant capacity expansions in China, which I presume you're supplying there as well. Production levels are running well below the sort of capacitized levels. How do you deal with that?
Firstly, they have a successful start-up of production. They were ramping up at a quick pace. They have started with some kits coming from U.S. It was a work case model. We were localizing. It is how they can reduce cost. I think they have made some initiative to reduce price as well. Localizing, they have some bottlenecks. It is why currently there is a small, I will say, drop of production. Localization is key for them. I am convinced that they will restart very soon their big ramp-up. They have strong ambition, and we believe that they will achieve the strong ambitions of production. Of course, it will be linked with the success of the models, but we are confident that they will achieve it as well. For us, Tesla is on a very good way.
Thank you very much.
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Thomas Besson from Kepler. Please ask your question.
Thank you. I have just a follow-up, Michel, if I may. You've mentioned the positive impact of hybrids on Clean Mobility. Have you made a calculation on the initial impact of electrification on Clean Mobility? Are you able to say, thanks to hybrids and the content we have on Tesla and other EVs, we see actually even a positive effect from the initial stage of electrification to 22 or to 25?
It's too early, what we see is that hybrid, thanks mainly to PSA, has taken half of the electrified part of the business, which is very positive for us. It was a little, it will be probably a little boosted in the last quarter by the fact that car makers will have to fulfill their commitment or they will be penalized. We'll see how the mix could be a little, sorry to use that, distorted by that. Currently, what I can say is that when I take the Clean Mobility Europe for light vehicles, we are evolving like the market, which is, I think, good. They think the same evolution 2021.
Okay. Very clear. Thank you very much.
Thank you. At the moment, we have no more any questions. Please continue.
Okay. If we have no more questions, firstly, thank you again for your attendance. We will participate to some conference, et cetera. We'll have the opportunity to update. Pleasure to upgrade all our figures. What I can tell you is that, of course, the next big, I will say, meeting will be the yearly for disclosure in February. Thank you, and have a good day. Bye-bye.
That does conclude our conference for today. Thank you for participating. You may all disconnect.