Icade (EPA:ICAD)
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Earnings Call: Q1 2024

Apr 22, 2024

Operator

Hello and welcome to the Q1 Results as of March 31, 2024 call. My name is Laura, and I will be your coordinator for today's event. Please note this call is being recorded, and for the duration of the call your lines will be on listen only. However, you will have the opportunity to ask questions at the end of the call, and this can be done by pressing star one on your telephone keypad to register your question. If you require assistance at any point, please press star zero and you will be connected to an operator. Today we have Nicolas Joly, Chief Executive Officer, and Christelle de Robillard, Chief Financial Officer, as our presenters. I will now hand you over to Nicolas Joly to begin today's conference. Thank you.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah, thank you. Good morning, everyone. This is Nicolas Joly speaking. Well, thank you all for being here today on this call. I'm with Christelle de Robillard, our new Chief Financial Officer, and this morning we are very pleased with Christelle to present the main figures and events for Icade for the first quarter of 2024. This presentation will, of course, be followed by a Q&A session. So to start, the key takeaways of the first quarter were as follows. Firstly, at our investor day on the 29th of February, we announced our new strategic plan for 2024-2028 named Reshape. For the record, Reshape is based around four priorities. First, continue adapting our office portfolio to new uses by leveraging on our portfolio of well-positioned office assets, which account for 86% of our offices.

Second, accelerate diversification by focusing on three asset classes with growing markets and a solid track record for Icade: light industrials, student housing, and data centers. Third, develop and invest building 2050 City, a mixed-use and sustainable city. Fourth, maintain a solid financial policy by adapting the pace and volume of our investments to our financial KPIs. In terms of business activity, real estate markets remained pretty calm over the first quarter in line with 2023. Against this backdrop, the property investment business reported a 3.8% increase in revenue, driven especially by the effects of indexation. The property development business also reported a 14.4% increase in economic revenue, thanks in particular to the residential backlog built up by the end of 2023.

Besides, it should be noted that the annual general meeting was held last Friday on the 19th of April, at which the following items were approved: the proposed dividend of EUR 4.84 per share, paid in full in cash, and the Say on Climate and Say on Biodiversity resolutions, and we will come back to this later in the presentation. Finally, we will confirm the 2024 guidance and give you a brief update on the first Reshape project announced at the investor day. So let's dive into the performance by business line on slide seven and start with the property investment activity. Well, the leasing market has got off to a mixed start in line with last year, with a take-up of 450,000 m² in Paris region.

The dynamics reflect continued polarization and the need to focus on assets that meet the highest standards in terms of location, services, flexibility, and, of course, ESG performance. The investment market, meanwhile, is still at a standstill with only EUR 900 million invested in Paris region, which is a -64% compared with the same period in 2023. In this environment, the property investment teams have signed or renewed 23 leases covering more than 14,000 m² , worth EUR 3.8 million in annualized headline rental income, with a WALP of 6.9 years. Among the 11,000 m² of new signature, Schneider Electric signed an additional 3,700 m² in the Edenn building, currently under development, bringing total pre-let space in the building to 71%. The main renewal was for an office space of over 2,000 sq m in Rungis.

The financial occupancy rate stood at 87.8% as of 30th of March 2024, stable compared to the end of December 2023. Q1 2024 confirmed the stronger operating momentum of well-positioned office and light industrial assets, whose occupancy rate is above 91%. These two asset classes accounted for more than 94% of revenue secured by rental activity in Q1 2024. As for the property development markets, continuing the trend seen in 2023, it was marked in Q1 2024 by a further slowdown in activity, with orders from individual buyers down by around -30% compared with the same period in 2023. Against this backdrop, Icade continued to outperform the market, with orders from individual buyers down by -21% in volume.

These orders were supplemented by institutional orders, the proportion of which was higher than at the start of 2023, with a 50% increase in volume, although the number remains relatively small at this stage. In this context, we expect margins to be negatively affected because of two main effects. Firstly, this higher part of block sales, given that they traditionally have lower profitability than individual sales. Secondly, the decrease in prices, as highlighted in this slide through the difference between the volume and value effects. Globally, the total volume of orders fell by a contained 6% in volume and 16% in value. As expected, the backlog is down by 6.5% to EUR 1.7 billion compared with December 2023. In these conditions, as already explained during our full year results, we will remain cautious in our property development business over the coming months.

Firstly, we continue to target a total order rate at 70% before launching new projects. Secondly, we are continuing to review our operations in order to confirm their economic viability, cancelling certain operations if necessary, and selling some land if needed. This rigorous management of new operations is reflected in a decrease in the volume of started projects of -63% and a reduction in the inventory of homes for sale of -19% in volume compared with the same period in 2023. This quarter, Icade once again demonstrated its ability to be a forerunner committed to climate and biodiversity issues. In the first quarter, Icade set itself apart by having two separate resolutions, Say on Climate on the one hand and Say on Biodiversity on the other hand, voted on and approved by the general meeting last Friday, respectively at 99.3% and 98.7%.

We are the first company in France to have two separate resolutions voted on, allowing us to commit with our shareholders and present the results of our low-carbon and biodiversity actions in relation to our objectives for 2030. In addition, Icade has confirmed its commitment to the energy efficiency program, which has enabled to reduce the energy consumption of the property investment portfolio by a further -5% over the winter 2023-2024, following a -20% reduction over the previous winter. Lastly, in the first quarter of 2024, Icade was awarded a CUBE d'Or for its I5 building in La Défense by the French Institute for the Energy Performance of Building, with energy savings of more than 36% achieved between October 2021 and December 2023. I5, which offers an excellent level of services and outstanding environmental performance, will become the group's new headquarters from December 2024.

I'll now hand over to Christelle for a detailed update on the development of our business revenue.

Christelle de Robillard
CFO, Icade

Thank you, Nicolas. Let's move directly to slide 12, in which we present the trend in consolidated revenue in Q1 2024. Despite markets remaining under pressure, total IFRS revenue rose from EUR 286.7 million to EUR 322 million, representing an increase of 12.3%. These EUR 322 million comprise mainly EUR 94 million of gross rental income from property investment activities and EUR 223 million of consolidated revenue from property development business. Moving now to slide 13. Gross rental income from property investment amounted to EUR 93.7 million for the first quarter 2024, up 3.8% compared with the same period in 2023. On a like-for-like basis, gross rental income rose by 1.7%, driven by indexation, representing 5.1%.

As highlighted in this slide, the increase in gross rental income on a like-for-like basis was more marked in the well-positioned office and light industrial segments at 5.1% and 7.1%, respectively, illustrating the relevance of our portfolio segmentation. Let's jump directly to the next slide, presenting the result of the property development division. You can see here the economic revenues, which are made up of consolidated revenue plus the share of revenue from jointly controlled entities. Economic revenue from property development rose by 14.4% from EUR 227 million to EUR 259 million. This growth was driven by the sale of EUR 25 million of the residential backlog built up in 2023 and EUR 8 million of land sales. This increase in land sales is a good illustration of the adjustment of our portfolio that Nicolas was just mentioning earlier.

It should also be noted that the first quarter of 2023, used as a benchmark, was marked by a particularly low volume of revenue. Indeed, as you can see in this slide, sales accounted for just 17.5% of total annual sales compared with a historical level over 20% in 2021 and 2022. Let's finally have a look at our financial structure on slide 15. As you can see, Icade has a strong balance sheet, which was further strengthened following the completion of the first stage of the disposal of the healthcare division in July 2023, generating EUR 1.45 billion of proceeds. In particular, Icade benefits from a very strong liquidity position at EUR 2.9 billion at the end of 2023, including cash and undrawn credit lines.

We do not have any short-term refinancing risk, bearing in mind that the next bond maturities are in November 2025 for EUR 500 million and in 2026 for EUR 750 million out of EUR 1.1 billion. I'll give the floor back to Nicolas to conclude on the outlook for 2024.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Thank you, Christelle. Well, to conclude, I wanted to share with you, firstly, the progress of some of the projects we presented at the investor day as part of Reshape. While the market remains calm, our teams are fully mobilized to implement the new plan. So this slide illustrates the progress recently made on every operational pillar of Reshape. On the first pillar, adapt office portfolio to new demands, we focused there on the Champs-Élysées project, which is composed of prime offices and retail. This project is a very good illustration of our capacity to provide adapted services to our customers. This building will offer, indeed, best ESG labels with the aim of reducing energy consumption, access to outdoor spaces throughout a rooftop dedicated to tenants, and large bicycle storage areas. This project is progressing as planned, with work scheduled to start in 2025.

In the meantime, we are creating value through short-term leases with EUR 3 million revenues over an 18-month period. On the second pillar, accelerate diversification, while the Ottawa project is a good example of development on the light industrial segment. Here also, the project is progressing as planned, with work scheduled to start in 2025. Another example is the project called City Park in Levallois, a mixed-use program emerging from an obsolete and monolithic tertiary building that will be converted into student housing. Since our investor day, we managed to obtain a building permit in March 2024. Finally, on the third pillar, develop and invest in 2050 City, I'd like to mention the Stamm project, consisting of housing development in Saint-Denis on one of the group's historic land reserves. This project also reached a milestone, with building permit filed in March and expected to be granted later this year.

With regard to guidance, based on the activity at the end of March 2024, Icade confirms that it expects net current cash flow from the group's strategic operation to be between EUR 2.75 and EUR 2.90 per share at the end of 2024. In addition, the residual non-consolidated interest in the healthcare business should generate additional net current cash flow of around EUR 0.80 per share based on the current shareholder base. Regarding the next milestones, I confirm the payment of the remaining part of the 2023 dividend on the 4th of July 2024, after ex-dividend on the 2nd of July, and, of course, the presentation of Icade's half-year result on the 22nd of July. Thank you very much for your attention, and we shall now open the floor to the Q&A session.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, as a reminder, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. We'll now take our first question from Florent Laroche-Joubert with ODDO BHF. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Florent Laroche-Joubert
Equity Research Analyst of Real Estate, ODDO BHF

Hi. Hello. Thank you very much for this presentation. I would have two questions, if I may. My first question would be on the leasing activity in offices. How has your visibility evolved during the quarter, both on the well-positioned and to-be-repositioned offices, with regard to the leases that you have signed in Q1 and the leases that you still need to renew in 2024? And maybe my second question would be, how confident are you now to meet the requirement of S&P in terms of net debt plus equity below 40%?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Okay. Thank you very much, Florent. Well, as for the first question on the leasing activity, well, I'd say that there are no major changes regarding the expiry schedule in 2024 from what we've shared with you in February. We tried at this time, two months ago, to give you as much visibility as we could. So I would say that out of the EUR 78 million of rents concerned by potential expiry this year, we are still expecting roughly EUR 40 million of certain departures that come mostly from the one asset that needs to be repositioned and from the exception of the Pulse building on the well-positioned asset. The Pulse building hosting the Olympic Committee, as you know, and accounting for EUR 10 million out of those EUR 40 million.

So globally, there are no major changes from what we've seen during the first quarter, saying also that a large part of those rents concern the Q4. As for S&P, maybe Christelle, you want to take this one?

Christelle de Robillard
CFO, Icade

Yeah. So regarding your question on S&P, so maybe it's worth reminding that there was a recent disclosure of S&P in which you also said that there is now a negative outlook. This negative outlook reflects both difficult market conditions in the property development and office segment. Over the next 12 months, by the way, S&P has already taken into account the additional slight deterioration in the group ratio. But at the same time, as you were mentioning, there was quite good news since S&P revised the target of debt-to-capital ratio below 40%, whereas it used to be towards 35% previously, factoring actually the positive influence of our main shareholder, Caisse des Dépôts et Consignations. So clearly, yes, we are confident in our capacity to reach this target insofar as, as we mentioned in Reshape roadmap, we have a pillar per se to keep a rigorous and prudent financial policy.

This slight upward of the ratio will help us to be in line with these guidelines.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

It's also worth noting, Florent, that there is absolutely no financial impact in the short term because for us, there is no need of refinancing. As you know, the next bond maturity end is at the end of 2025. If you look at the bond market, there is already a premium if you look at Icade in comparison with the other BBB-plus rated companies.

Florent Laroche-Joubert
Equity Research Analyst of Real Estate, ODDO BHF

Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much.

Christelle de Robillard
CFO, Icade

Thank you. And we'll now move on to our next question from Véronique Meertens with Kempen . Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Véronique Meertens
Director of Equity Research in Real Estate, Kempen

Hello. Good morning, all. Thank you for taking my questions, also two from my side. I was wondering if there's any update on disposals or any discussions ongoing there. Obviously, still, the investment market in Paris seems to be very muted, but happy to also hear your take on the current situation.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Okay. Well, as you say, I mean, well, the investment market is definitely at a standstill. I think we have never seen a first quarter like this one since 2010, maybe. So as for what we are concerned, if we talk about the healthcare disposal, there are no major changes from what we've shared two months ago. Once again, there is some interest from third-party investors, but we want to stick to our policy, saying that there's absolutely no rush for us to sell some assets to opportunistic buyers with large discounts, definitely. But if we take a look at the investment market, indeed, during the past months, there were only a few transactions, if not outside of Paris, as we already shared in the presentation. So pretty calm, indeed.

Véronique Meertens
Director of Equity Research in Real Estate, Kempen

All right. Thank you. And we're obviously looking towards the half-year evaluations, being almost May. Can you maybe shed some light on current discussions? Is there still a significant haircut to come, in your view?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. Well, about that, maybe firstly, as a reminder, as you know, over the past 12 months, the adjustment was -17.5% for us. So that leads from the peak in June 2022 from a global adjustment of -23% over the past 18 months. So the global yield of the portfolio, as you know today, is 7.5% and 6.7% on the well-positioned assets. So definitely, a large part of the risk premium has been restored. We will be getting the first feedback from the appraisers in the coming week regarding the valuation that has to be made in June. So given the fact that we've just mentioned that the investment market is totally frozen at this stage, we remain cautious because of the fact there were only a few, if none, transactions.

So maybe there's room for further value adjustment, but definitely, in our view, most of it is behind us now.

Véronique Meertens
Director of Equity Research in Real Estate, Kempen

Okay. That's very clear. Thank you. Maybe one last one from my side. Looking at the occupancy level of the light industrial, it did come down a bit. Is that more of a one-off or because obviously, the like-for-like was on the positive side, curious if you expect to restore that towards the end of the year?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. Well, I'd say that on the light industrial, I mean, on the first quarter, it's not necessarily representative. As you know, we have already 11% of the portfolio composed of light industrial assets, but it's still a small perimeter. So it's one small effect which can be structural but not necessarily meaning that there's an issue on the light industrial part.

Véronique Meertens
Director of Equity Research in Real Estate, Kempen

Okay. Thank you very much.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. As a reminder, once again, ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press star one on your telephone keypad. Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question from Céline Huynh with Barclays. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Céline Huynh
Real State Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Hi, Nicolas. I got three questions, so I'm going to say them all at the same time. On the first one, Icade Promotion, can you explain how much inventory you're currently holding in units? And by that, I mean units finished and unsold and how many units you're planning to build and the pre-sale for these. My second question would be for Christelle. Now that you've joined the company, you've joined before after the plan was announced, and I would love to hear if you think it is sensible and whether you are planning to make any changes on it. And also a question, a more broad one, but your shares have strongly de-rated post the announcement of the strategy plan. So I'd be interested to hear what you think did not convince the market, in your view. Thank you.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Okay. Well, maybe I'll take your last question from the start, Céline. Well, I think regarding the market, there are three things to have in mind. First one is about the real estate sector. Second one is about subsectors, I would say. And the third one is about Icade's catalyst and strategic plan. Well, the first point about the real estate market is definitely the real estate market globally is struggling. Everyone is waiting for the major catalyst and the interest rates start decreasing. Hopefully, it will come in the following months. If you take the second point about subsectors, inside the real estate sectors, some subsectors are struggling more than others. And definitely, offices are struggling and also property development. So that's not an easy one for us.

On the third point, as for Icade, as I say, in the short term, I think we are penalized by our operational profile, as I just said. About the strategic plan, well, globally, we got good feedback on the strategic plan, saying that it's consistent with who we are, what we intend to do, but it's definitely a mid-long-term plan. As everyone is focusing on the short term, everyone is waiting for catalyst before diving in. The main conclusion is that people think we are cheap at the current stock level. That's the feedback we've got. People are waiting for catalyst, catalyst being macro catalyst, as I just said, about the interest rate, but also catalyst at the scale of Icade about achieving concrete steps in the disposal and the proceeds and also achieving concrete operational steps in the main pillars of Reshape.

As you saw, all the teams are now committed to deliver those concrete steps, as we've just shared during the presentation. I think that's for your question about our view on the market, but also happy to have your feedback when we meet next time. As for the first question about Icade Promotion, so as you say, we are quite cautious on the new development we have. We still have a strong backlog that will help deliver the activity in 2024. The main question is more about the pipeline in 2025. As you saw, we've postponed once again some works, launches, in order to be more and more cautious. We think that indeed, if 2023 was quite a year, 2024 will still remain full of uncertainty. We expect some pressure, of course, on both the revenues and the margins.

Maybe the last one was for Christelle.

Christelle de Robillard
CFO, Icade

Thank you for this personal question. So indeed, as you all know, I took up my position at the beginning of March, almost six weeks ago now. But luckily enough, I had the opportunity to exchange beforehand with Nicolas on the strategy that was disclosed at the investor day, at which I had the opportunity to take part, actually. Since my arrival, I have been pleased to note many, many things in the company, but in particular, a committed and mobilized team in a challenging short-term environment, a real culture of innovation, and a long-standing know-how in terms of ESG. And last but not least, a customer-oriented approach with a strong willingness to position customers at the heart of the business with aim to offer the best experience possible.

So clearly, to answer directly your question, no, I don't intend to change the strategy, and I'm fully in line with the strategy that we presented in Reshape. My real priority will be twofold. First one, to position the financial direction as a business partner so as to bring full financial support to our two divisions to achieve this ambition and objective that we set out in this strategic plan. And secondly, of course, at the same time, my role will be to ensure to maintain a solid balance sheet and a prudent financial policy, which is, as you know, the fourth pillar of Reshape.

Céline Huynh
Real State Equity Research Analyst, Barclays

Thank you, Christelle.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. We'll now move on to our next question from Adam Shapton with Green Street. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Adam Shapton
Senior Analyst of European Research and Sector Head For Pan-European Office Coverage, Green Street

Thank you for the cool presentation. Just a quick one on the property development division. So unusually high contribution from land sales, the EUR 9.5 million. Do we see that as a one-off, or are we likely to see more significant land sales supporting the revenue line throughout 2024?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. Well, that definitely illustrates that we want to be opportunistic. In order to protect the balance sheet, we pay strong attention to our working capital. These EUR 8 million land sales were mainly supported by one sale in Bondy of an historic land sale. So it illustrates the fact that we are keeping on being opportunistic, and we want to have a strong focus, as Christelle said, on our balance sheet and protecting the working capital. So it has been opportunistic, but we keep on reviewing our options.

Adam Shapton
Senior Analyst of European Research and Sector Head For Pan-European Office Coverage, Green Street

Just to be clear, that flows into the net current cash flow, am I right? That as income, effectively?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah.

Adam Shapton
Senior Analyst of European Research and Sector Head For Pan-European Office Coverage, Green Street

I'm just sort of wondering, on the guidance on net current cash flow, are you able to say what's assumed in terms of land sales? Do we see sort of EUR 8 million a quarter for the rest of the year, or not?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

It's been already included. I mean, it does not impact the view we have on the guidance.

Adam Shapton
Senior Analyst of European Research and Sector Head For Pan-European Office Coverage, Green Street

Yeah. Okay. All right. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. We'll now take our next question from Marc Mozzi with Bank of America. Your line is open. Please go ahead.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Thank you very much. Good morning, all. I have four questions, which are relatively straightforward. The number one is, what would be the like-for-like rental growth if we were looking at the net rental income, not the gross rental income?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Well, I don't think that KPI people are used to share, Marc, on this one.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Is it above or below?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

What's your question behind that, to be straightforward?

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Is it above or below? Is it above or below the +1.7% like-for-like or +3.8% overall?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

No.

Christelle de Robillard
CFO, Icade

We haven't made the exercise so far. We.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. We'll check that. What's your question beneath that, Marc?

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Well, gross, it's one line, and net, it's another line, which is after some cost. And I just wanted to know if the cost has increased or not? And therefore, if the +3.8%, it's +3.8% at the net level, or if it's above, below?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

No, but there's no significant and major change in the cost, and we also shared information about the cost. So about the cost, what could impact in the months and years to come might be maybe the rise in vacancy to be repositioned assets. But apart from that, if the occupancy ratio keeps steady, there are no major impacts to be expected. So we still think that like-for-like on the growth front is relevant as a KPI. But we'll look closely to that if we want.

Christelle de Robillard
CFO, Icade

Clearly, this will be part of our H1 result when we disclose the full results. At the end of March 2024, we only disclose revenues at this stage. That's why we haven't had a look at that.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Thank you. My second question is about what is the leasing spread you've been able to achieve potentially for well-positioned, light industrial, and other in Q1 leasing spreads? So meaning the difference between new rent compared to passing rent.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. Well, as for that, it's pretty in line with what we've shared during the investor day. I mean, when we are relating the assets, we usually stick to the RVs. I think in the Q1, I have in mind one or two deals that we were slightly even above the RVs. So globally, we are at the RVs. And by doing so, we are crystallising lease by lease the negative potential reversion that we've shared globally during the strategic plan presentation, which is, for the record, on the well-positioned assets, on average, a global -8.7%.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

That's for the well-positioned offices, no?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Because reversion does not make sense for the one asset that needs to be repositioned. As we've already said, I mean, those won't be offices anymore in the mid-long term. So it does not make sense to compare the rents. And for those ones, we are fighting for every euro, basically, protecting the cash flow basis as long as we come with the repositioning scenario and secure the plan by obtaining some building permit with the local authorities. So in our view, reversionary potential only makes sense for the one assets that remain in their own asset class.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Okay. So my third question is about those repositioned to be repositioned offices. Is that essentially assets moving from being let to being empty, or there is an element of relating as well into the money of EUR 2.7 million?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

No. No, no. On those assets, the strategic view we have is turning those assets from offices to anything but offices. And as you know, this can be student housing like Levallois. This can be residential like the Renault headquarters in Le Plessis-Robinson. That can be hotel like Helsinki Jenna. And in the meantime, that does not necessarily mean that those assets will remain empty. On the contrary, we are having some really pragmatic discussion with the tenant in place in order to secure as much cash flow as possible during the interim period we need to obtain the building permit from the local authorities. And basically, have in mind that, as we've shared two months ago, the average WALP is roughly two years on those assets, accounting for EUR 53 million per year.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Okay. My final question is around your development business. What sort of embedded EBIT or EBITDA margin do you think you have based on Q1 numbers?

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Well, of course, in Q1, we don't share those figures. We give you more details, of course, during the half-year result. What I would say is that, as you saw, the Q1 is historically quite a low part of the revenues compared to the year. What we say about that is that we are cautious about the property development business this year. After the year 2023, even if the revenues are backed mostly by the strong backlog we have from 2023, we want to remain cautious, expecting, as I said, some pressures on the revenues, the margin, and, of course, the cash flows.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Put it differently, is your margin still positive, or it has moved into negative territory? Because backlog is one thing, but the margin is negative potentially on the remaining 5%-10% of unit you're selling.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Yeah. Of course, as I said, there's some pressure on the margin due to the fact that with block sales, with the part of block sales increasing, the part of sales for which the margin is lower is increasing. And there's also the decrease of price, as you saw in the presentation. So that's the reason why we expect some pressure on the margin. And be happy to share some more details in the half-year result.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Thank you.

Marc Mozzi
Managing Director and Head of EMEA Real Estate Equity Research, Bank of America

Have a good day. Cheers.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

You too.

Operator

Thank you. There are no further questions in queue. I will now hand it back to Nicolas for closing remarks.

Nicolas Joly
CEO, Icade

Okay. Well, thank you, everyone. We were happy to start the week with you. Looking forward to seeing you in the next weeks or months. Continue sharing. Until then, be sure that all the team are focusing on implementing Reshape at every level of the company. So looking forward to seeing you again. Have a nice day. Have a nice week. Bye-bye.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes today's call. Thank you for your participation. Stay safe. You may now disconnect.

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