Kaufman & Broad S.A. (EPA:KOF)
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Apr 24, 2026, 5:35 PM CET
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Earnings Call: Q1 2025

Apr 14, 2025

Speaker 1

Good morning. This is the first quarter results and outlook for Kaufman & Broad. Now, there's one thing we'd like to say, is that as far as Q&A is concerned, we'll take oral questions first and then the written questions. If you want to ask a question, please use the Questions tab on the web page. Now, we'll listen to Mr. Nordine Hachemi, Chairman and CEO of the group, and Bruno Coche, the CFO, who will talk you through current business and outlook. Thank you. Good morning. Thank you for being with us for the first quarter results. As you probably know, this starts on the 1st of December and ends at the end of February. I suppose that everybody's received access to the link to have the first quarter presentation, that is, the full deck or slideshow. Let's move to page two.

Those are the usual indicators that we use. We have short-term and mid-term indicators, and we look at their development over the years. If we look at the housing land portfolio, the figures have been stable for two or three years. We update the numbers permanently. That is, the housing units that we have here will keep on changing from one year to the next. Some will become projects, others will be becoming orders, and then revenue. In other cases, the projects will not come to any fruition because we think there is no good return; we cannot break even. Of course, we have a pipeline of new projects. That is thanks to our development leg. As I was saying, the numbers have been stable since 2022. There was a drop, though, in 2021.

If we look at housing orders and volumes to start with, we're up 6%. That's only for one quarter, of course. The numbers are not exceptionally high. In terms of values, the numbers are stable. This is due to the product mix that has been ordered during the quarter. We still have a very good take-up rate, and our backlog is quite stable as well. Stable backlog for housing. A mechanical drop, if you will, still for the backlog for company property, business property. As we move on and recognize revenue for these activities, the backlog, of course, tends to go down. On the following page, we can have a look at building permits and new housing starts. The curves cover more or less 20 years. As you can see, there are cycles.

By the way, we tend to say that property development is cyclical. One could wonder about the origin of the cycles. As I keep on saying, we can't say that people, at a moment in time, need a house and then no longer need a house. It's not a seasonal business, so it shouldn't be cyclical because, by definition, the needs remain the same. Or there's a growth due to population growth or due to sociological reasons. These cycles are purely artificial cycles. Usually, it's due to government intervention, policy intervention on the markets, or changes in the interest rates. Even though usually, if, for instance, you look at 2005, the interest rates were quite high, but orders were at a high level, and the interest rates at the time were a lot higher than the interest rates that we have today.

We can adjust to the fluctuation of rates. Of course, there's policy intervention, new lawmaking, and this is the main reason why we have these cycles on the markets. It is policy or government intervention that creates those cycles. Otherwise, the trends shouldn't be cyclical. Now, one of the main difficulties on the market, apart from these headwinds I mentioned before, that is, the many political changes, which are probably necessary, but this is done in an erratic way. It is not coordinated when the law changes. There's another reason, which is the high level of rules that are produced. This plus a drop in building permits. That's our number one concern today, which is what we can see on page five of our presentation. We have the trends for building permits. What's the take-home message then on that page? It is that we follow the trends.

We do like the other players on the market. We're not doing better in terms of getting building or construction permits. I suppose we'll do better than our peers. For the time being, as you can see, it takes time. Even though we have a vantage position, our stance is good and solid on the property market in France. Yet, as you can see, there are more and more transactions that come to us because we, as a group, are a solid group, economically sound. Page six, the number of orders. This is based on our market studies. It's an independent agency that produces these reports for us. It looks like we're outperforming the other players on the market so far, which, as an average, was the case over the past 12 months. Look at our performance with orders.

On page seven, the main reason is shown, which is the good take-up rate. Take-up rate is good compared to the other players and the market trends. That is quite simple because we sell our units quickly. Our housing units include a number of parameters such as economic and lawmaking parameters and tax parameters. Since our products are good, meet the standards, we can sell them quickly. Whereas if you look at the other players, the peers, it is difficult for them to sell the housing units because of the Pinel schemes when the interest rates were quite low. Therefore, it takes them quite some time to sell their units and to adapt. Our group philosophy is based on a clear strategy. We say we need to sell quickly so that we are agile, so that we can adapt to these many legal changes.

Sometimes they're very sudden turnarounds. As you can see, this is quite positive if you look at the trends, the take-up trends. On the following page, what have we? There is a relative decrease in block sales. There is an increase in what we call accession. Individual investors are more or less stable, going from 9%-1 0%. They were using the Pinel scheme in the past, but it is no longer the case. If you look at the first quarter 2024, Pinel schemes were still valid at the time. Look at our take-up pace. As of Q1 2024, Pinel schemes only represented 2% of our sales. We did not wait for this Pinel law to come to its end to react, which means that today we can do without the Pinel schemes.

In terms of values, the numbers are more or less the same, except for what we call the first buyers, the accession, first buyers, usually, or second buyers. In values, the numbers are higher. If we look at the pace at which we get these orders, and let's start with volumes. I was looking at the sales numbers this morning, which is what I do every Monday morning. Look at our sales today, the sales numbers. It's half what we had in 2018 or 2019 per week. We had twice as many orders at the time in 2018 or 2019, which really shows that people want to buy our housing units. Even though the general backdrop is quite complicated, people still want to buy what we produce. The problem is not demand, but supply. That's for our products.

On the following page, we will have a look at the land position, total land portfolio, and backlog. We do not need to spend too much time on this. We have talked about this already. Let us move on and talk about the development of managed residences. We have developed two portfolios, if I can say, with two different offerings for which we have taken two different positions. First, residences for students, and the other category is for senior people. For students, we work with Neoresid, our subsidiary, and operations of senior residences with Cozy Diem. We have more than 50% of the shares, 51%, as you can see on the slide. We are investors and operators on the one hand, and we are operators for student residences, and to some extent also, a little extent, if I can say, for senior residences.

We are investors and operators with the Banque des Territoires organization, both for both markets, students and seniors. 49% in the hands of the Banque des Territoires and 51% for us. Page 13, these are the currently developed projects. At present, we have five residences in co-investments in the hands of Kaufman & Broad and Banque des Territoires for the student market and student residences, and two for senior residences. Here again, we share this with the Banque des Territoires, and our objective is to continue and develop that business, as you can see on Page 13. That is our intention for student homes or residences. There is a good ramp-up on the senior market. Yet, we would like to wait a little before doing anything. We want the business to be quite stable before we continue and develop that activity.

We are committed to developing the pure operator business for student residences, and also we will continue and develop the portfolio. On Page 14, you will see how we value our portfolio. For the first two student residences with Banque des Territoires, the rates have gone down by 0.4%, 40 basis points. If there is a student residence that generates EUR 1 million of rent net for the investors, the total value will be EUR 20 million to EUR 21 million. That is the value that will be financed through debt and equity, half-half. So, EUR 10 million for equity. As I said, the rates have gone down by 0.4%. The euros will be EUR 23 million, and you can add EUR 20 million in terms of valuation on equity. That is what we did with the first two residences. That is what we worked on with Banque des Territoires.

We're still developing this portfolio, which does create value as we speak. For the time being, I don't think that we've factored in this value in our books in terms of company valuation. Yet, given our future developments, you will see that this business will be gaining clout, and it'll have to be booked in. On Page 16, you have two examples of projects. We were the best bidders because we have a good balance sheet, and we are a company that has different business lines. The first one is in the town of Courbevoie. That will be a managed residence for students. It'll be acquired by the Banque des Territoires and ourselves. The district is really a nice one, close to La Défense in the town of Courbevoie. It's a buoyant type of place. There are schools over there.

It'll be a major student center, if I can say, and we'll have all sorts of things over there: shops and housing units. There is another project in the town of Nanterre, still to the west of Paris. That is brownfield that's been turned into hotels, schools, sports areas, sports and leisure, and also student-managed residence. Now, let's move on. Let's continue with commercial property. That is the Austerlitz project, as usual. As far as the Marseille project is concerned with EDF, as you've probably noticed, the management team has changed. I am not worried about the future of the project because this is a very important project for EDF. There is a new management team. The effect of that is there's a slight slowdown, even though the discussions are still very positive. Maybe the project's going to be enforced this year or perhaps next year.

We have not yet included this in our outlook this year, for your information. Now, I'll hand over to Bruno, and I'll be with you again for the Q&A. Bruno, hello.

Thank you, Nordine. We'll have a look at the financial results. We'll start with revenue for the first quarter, which started on the 1st of December and ended 28th of February. The first quarter revenue is at EUR 250.1 million, therefore up 9.7%. This is in keeping with our guidance in absolute values versus last year, EUR 22 million. That is more or less 50% for housing at EUR 205.6 million to be compared to EUR 197.2 million last year. On the other side, commercial property at EUR 40.3 million to be compared with EUR 27.2 million in 2024. These are the two legs, if you will, of our business, and there has been an improvement.

Have a look at the gross margin. I'd like to remind you of the fact that gross margin is the difference between the sales and the cost of land and construction. Here, you have a plus EUR 49.2 million compared with EUR 45 point something in the same quarter 2024. Slightly below the increase in revenue, bearing in mind that the gross margin rate is still 19.7% of sales, but it's still very satisfactory, even though it's slightly lower than last year. In absolute terms, you have a plus EUR 3.3 million for the gross profit. Now, regarding current operating expenses, EUR 29.9 million. A slight increase compared with last year, EUR 29.1 million. We have a debit or current operating income of 7.6% in absolute terms, plus EUR 2.5 million.

The difference between the gross profit at EUR 3.3 million and operating expenses are slightly increasing, EUR 200,000 over twelve months. This operating margin, 7.7%, is in line with our guidance. It's within the bracket we had said between 7.5%-8% throughout the year. We are really within the bracket for the first quarter. Now, if we have a look at the other figures, you will see that the cost of debt, EUR 2.2 million compared with EUR 2.4 million last year, so slightly down. Attributable net income is EUR 11.6 million. Last year, we had EUR 11 million, bearing in mind that the minority share is slightly below that of last year, EUR 2.1 million compared with EUR 3.2 million.

If you have a comparison line by line, you will see that we are achieving very good performance, a really good slight increase compared with last year at the same time of the year. It is fully in line with our guidance. Now, let's have a look at the balance sheet. Let's have a look at the working capital requirement. This is a key line for a developer. It is negative for the second year in a row, EUR 250 million. I'd like to remind you of the fact that WCR, which is really, really low, is due to the environment, for example, the current situation with the Austerlitz project. Also, it is due to the decisions that are being made ahead of time in order to make sure that we sell our products fast and that we turn our sales into cash very rapidly also.

We have been working on this for the past 10 years, even more. We are implementing this rule in a very strict way, and this is really bearing fruit. Now, if we have a look at, say, the balance sheet equity, we have EUR 248.3 million, and the dividends were approximately EUR 43 million for 2024. What has been paid out has been offset by the money earned in the same time. EUR 376.1 million, that is for the net cash position, slightly below compared with closing, but still at a very good level and slightly higher than what we had at the end of first quarter 2024. This is fully in line with our guidance again because for the entire year, we intend to have a net cash position of. We are fully in line with our guidance.

Now, that maturity is 0.2 years, stable again compared with the end of November 2024. If we include the unused R CF, it would be 3.6 years. Cash and cash equivalents, say, EUR 482.7 million compared with EUR 502.9 million. Bearing in mind that when it comes to cash and cash equivalents, some of it will be used in order to pay back in full the Euro PP, which will mature in May. We're going to pay up that money, and this bond was issued in 2017. Also, I'd like to remind you of the fact that EUR 200 million will be used for the Austerlitz project by the time it is completed in 2027. Also, as a reminder, we are the only developer in the continent that has an investment grade rating by a Fitch rating, so BB B- .

Obviously, we are fully in line with the various financial ratios and no specific waivers. On the next page, you have the net gross financial debt, and our net cash is improving. It's been improving over the past 18 months. This is very satisfactory again. By the end of this year, we should keep a net cash at a significant level. You have probably read it in a press release, we keep our guidance for the year, so plus 5% for our revenue, a bit of something between 7.5%-8%, and the net cash position that should remain typically positive throughout the year after having paid out a dividend of EUR 2.2. This dividend, obviously, will have to be approved during the next annual shareholders' meeting on the 6th of May. That is for the first quarter of 2025.

I will now hand over the floor back to Nordine, and we'll let you ask questions if you have some.

Thank you, Bruno. If you have questions, please do not hesitate. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have questions, please, now is the time to do so. You can dial star one on your phone. First question from Maryline von Bernstein. Good morning. Thank you. I'd like to ask about the average decrease in the. For the decrease in the average sales price, it's not significant, but that being said, the mix, in my view, is a bit more favorable now with a higher number of first-time buyers. Is this due to any specific breakdown between the various regions or anything else? Now, regarding the two new projects that are now entering the pipeline, how confident are you when it comes to obtaining the building permits?

Bearing in mind the fact that municipal elections will take place in approximately a year or a year and a half now. Now, for Bruno, the EUR 2 million of the net financial cost, is this the Euro PP? How is the repayment of the Euro PP going to allow you to achieve some savings when it comes to financial costs? Thank you. To answer the first question on the average price, it's about the mix. If we have a look at the different investors, price levels are flat. Now, regarding first-time buyers or second-time buyers, it's slightly increasing. If we have a look at block sales, in this case, average prices are slightly down, and you will see this on the slides.

This is due to the fact that within those blocks, we have what I call free blocks and also social housing, and we have more social housing units in this category. The average price is slightly down, but it is really due to the block sales section. As for other prices, they are either stable or slightly increasing when it comes to first-time buyers, for example. If I may add to what Bruno has just said, please bear in mind that institutions that used to be social landlords previously, now they have been purchasing intermediate housing units and also what we call free housing units. In other words, those housing units for which there are no specific rules regarding the rent. For intermediate housing, things are a bit different.

It is those free units that are more numerous in the first-time buyers category, and this translates into the prices that you saw. Now, regarding the building permits, the Courbevoie project, this is a project that already has a building permit. We needed to amend it. We need to amend the building permit. It was mainly the financial operators that had purchased the property some years ago. There was also a bid, but we were not chosen. We were not awarded the project, but their prices were not reasonable. Now we were awarded the project, and the conditions, I mean, are even better than the one we had submitted a few years ago.

We are going to have an amended building permit in order to really make sure that it is in line with our criteria, especially when it comes to what we call free housing units. Now, for Dinante project, this was a bid organized by the Structure d'Aménagement de la Défense. This is the La Défense Planning Authority. It is going to require more time and effort. The urban planning document will have to be amended also. I mean, the pace is slightly different. Nanterre until now has been quite resilient. It is actually quite good when it comes to issuing a building permit. It does not really depend on who is in power. Now, also, a question for you regarding financial costs.

So that you really understand things clearly, 100% of the EUR 2 million are made up of financial costs calculated based on IFRS standards. If we're talking about cash only, we would be slightly positive. As for the Euro PPs that we are reimbursing, the interest rate was 3% because they were issued in 2017. Over the past 12 months, we were investing those funds, and we had interest rates that were slightly greater than 3%. The maturity is mid-May with investment with an interest rate of slightly more than 3%. This month is going to be reimbursed. Mechanically, we should save per temporary several million euros during the coming quarters. Thank you. I would like to remind you that you can ask your questions after having dialed—sorry, star one on your phone.

Next question by Emmanuel Parot from Gilbert Dupont. You have the floor. Hello, good morning. I hope you can hear me. We have two questions. First, regarding the commercial launches, could you remind us of your ambitions for the entire 2025 quarter by quarter? Because I think you have 31 launches during Q2. Could you maybe give us the numbers for each quarter forecast? Also a question regarding the current situation and the current political environment and tariffs, customs tariffs, and the stocks, falling stocks. Is this impacting your prospects or the contacts that you have using anything that would indicate that situation is becoming more difficult? Thank you for asking those questions. Indeed, we have not talked about any planned launches on a quarterly basis. We do not do this because this varies quite a lot.

We have approximate numbers for the entire, but it's difficult to provide any more specific forecasts on a quarterly basis because there are lots of things that could impact those launches and lots of uncertainties. Now, regarding the presentation, what I said is that when we had 8,000 or 9,000 housing orders per year, we had, regarding those free units, approximately 100 or 120 units that were ordered every week. Now, it's approximately 50 or 60 housing units. It is half what we had in 2018 and 2019. The Pinel scheme is no longer, and there are things to take into account. What we see is that despite increased interest rates, our customers are still interested in our products. I'm really talking about our products, not the market, generally speaking. There is still a strong demand.

Now, regarding the current economic chaos, starting with the situation in the U.S., how is this going to impact how our customers behave? We'll see the consequences when everything happens in the real economy. I think this will happen rather sooner than later. Customers will be less confident when it comes to the future because unemployment will go up. We're talking about an essential good. Housing is an essential good. Current supply in France does not cover the actual demand. Many customers were renting, but there is a lack of rentals or rental accommodations. With the fact that the Pinel scheme is no longer existing, there are going to be even fewer rentals, and people are going to want to buy housing units. People who are already owners will stay where they are because there is a lack of new buildings also.

If there aren't sufficient building permits, there is an unmet need that is only going to grow. We believe that it will be quite interesting for us in the mid or long term. There's another factor that the number of developers is going down, or at least they are becoming more reasonable and more realistic, which is good news because we had been warning people about this during the past five or six years. It is quite good and positive to see that things are evolving in the right direction. One last question, if I may. I have the feeling that the recognition of the revenue for Austerlitz hasn't been modified. I don't know if it was Austerlitz 1 or before that, but I have the feeling that recognition is a bit faster than anticipated because it seems that for 2027, the recognition number is slightly lower.

Yes, but it's only a slight difference. It's on Page 18 of our presentation. This was modified for Austerlitz 1.0. Is this correct? Yes, exactly. I mean, it's in line with the actual works because they are progressing fast, and this is why the recognition of it is also faster. If you go there, you will see that the building that is lining the street already has four floors. We'd like to remind you that you can ask your questions after having dialed star one on your phone. There are no more questions. You have the floor, gentlemen. Thank you so much. Thank you for having been with us this morning. We will meet again in July, beginning of July, for the Q2 results. Thank you. Have a good day, everyone.

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