Good morning and welcome. Thank you for joining us, many of you here, as last year at the Maison du Danemark, to hear our press release and our 2024 full year results approved by our board on Friday and presented to you today following the release that was put out this morning. This is going to be a two-stage process presentation where Julien Maubert, head of raw materials, natural ingredients, and myself, Jérôme Bruhat, CEO, will present the results, and then we'll have the Q&A. Some people are joining us for the first time by webcast to allow those of you who are unable to join us to attend the session and to ask questions. We'll discuss the results. Sales reported in February.
Just a reminder, we had solid top-line growth last year, double-digit growth as regards organic growth, which is about twice the average for the past few years, 12% reported growth. What is very interesting for us is all four divisions and the six regions are all up in 2024. It is a year that we view as excellent. What is interesting in the detail is we saw a return to growth of the raw materials division that had more challenging years, 2022, 2023, following the drop in aromatherapy in the United States, but all the rest of the activity grew even more in 2024, driven by restocking from our clients. In parallel to this good economic performance, we invested a fair bit of CapEx with, on the one hand, the general increase of our production capacity, many investments abroad with an industrial rationale to produce close to our clients.
We have plants in Europe, in France, in the United States, in China, in each of the major Latin American countries, Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, but in Asia, we still have some work to do in terms of industrial capability. We've got a fine facility in China, a small factory in Singapore. We plan to extend our presence with industrial projects in Indonesia, in addition to CapEx. We have some acquisitions, a big acquisition in 2023 with Sonarome and a smaller acquisition in 2024, Phasex, which is our first plant on supercritical CO2 in the U.S. We already had that in Europe, but we also have that in the U.S. to do made in USA with our CO2 extracted ingredients. We flagged the acquisition of Sonarome at the end of 2023. Let me take this opportunity to say the year is going well.
Very good integration with our friends from Sonarome, opening up the Indian market for aromas, but not shown on the slide. Also, Africa, where we have a useful facility in West Africa for about 20% of their business. To return to today's topic, the group reported an EBITDA margin at 19.4%, up 100 basis points compared with 2023, and Free cash flow generation of EUR 74 million, which was supported by good EBITDA, but also improved working capital efficiency, notably a relative destocking. We like this because we are reporting the financial results, but also the non-financial results. To remind you, we received the EcoVadis Platinum Award that assesses thousands of companies and places Robertet in the top 1% of companies. Back to sales.
in 2023, EUR 720 million, EUR 807 million in 2024, 12% growth, 10% organic growth, 2.4% driven by essentially Sonarome acquisition and for its effect, 7%. Nothing very new. We had some negative forex impacts, significant in 2023 because of the Argentine peso, but those impacts lessened sharply in 2024. We had a good year and an easy year in terms of forex. Next, the divisions, back to growth of the raw materials division, plus 17% fine performance of fragrances, up 16%, notably driven by fine fragrance. New markets for us, markets such as Dubai, Brazil, and China that are very buoyant and without a doubt will remain so in 2025. Flavors division, up 5%, where we're positioned on categories such as beverages and dairy. Contribution in line with the market and also a health and beauty division posting, plus 9%.
During the half-yearly results, I was asked about the relative weakness of the health and beauty division. We managed to resolve our production issues in the second half, so we had a big catch-up in the second half of 2024 to end the year on a positive note, coming in at +9%, knowing that the division, even if it's small, only represents 3% of sales. A high-growth division. We have high ambitions for it with the new sales forces in countries in the U.S. and Asia, notably. Geographies, and I'll end here with sales. We have a profile that's already heavily focused on Europe and the United States that accounts for 72% of sales, very balanced, 36%, both quite dynamic, 3% for Europe, slightly down, and good across North America, including Canada, +13%, which has reassured us greatly.
This year's good progression in Asia, plus 32% increase in Asia-Pacific, and we were at 15. We've grown to 70% of group sales. We still have some leeway versus our peers, and so we must both capture the interest of natural in these regions and to bolster our industrial and commercial capability to break through. Contrasted performance between Africa that remains challenging. Middle East ended on a very good note, and Latin America up 15% and 24% across Latin American countries. That was very reassuring performance. The P&L, as you can see, EBITDA that went from 18.4% to 19.4%, shown on the penultimate line of this chart. This was driven, as you can see, on the first blue line, gross profit, where we went from 54.3% to 56.4% of gross profit. What's that due to?
Good top-line growth and, above all, purchasing costs of raw materials are number one cost item. Those were favorable in the first half of 2024. In fact, we reported the end of June 2024 margin numbers that were even better that dropped during the course of the year. When we negotiated a number of purchasing contracts at the beginning of 2024, we were at a low point. It had slowed in 2023. We were able to negotiate good purchasing contracts that were able to leverage early 2024, but as the year progressed, we had to renew those contracts and prices rose, so margins declined a bit in the second half. Overall, full year, it is an improvement of 210 basis points gross profit. External charges grew, plus 10%. Personnel costs up 11%.
Won't go into the detail, but we clearly have external charges in 2024 that were increased by price increases, industrial maintenance, energy, IT, and personnel, some hires and salary catch-ups post-hyperinflation that weighed on our P&L, but nevertheless below the reported growth, allows EBITDA to improve. I'll end with the baseline net income grew from 76 to 90, going from 10.3% to 11.2% of sale with an improved financial earnings, stabilization in the cost of debt, because in spite of interest rates that remained rather high in 2024, as we reimburse the debt, that reduces the cost of debt, but we've just, in December 31, dropped slightly below 0.8 in leverage, so our debt ratio that increased in 2024 has declined sharply. That worry is behind us, and we spotted an internal change by cash centralization that's far better invested than previously.
We're able to generate financial income taking account of the interest rate in 2024. Two major operational changes, better stock management and cash pooling to leverage to the full of group effects and to increase in net Percentage of 20.7% Cash flow. I won't go through all the items, otherwise it'll take all morning, but what's important is to start with good EBITDA, €157 million in 2024, a number of charges that bring operating cash flow to €112 million, a real difference 2024 versus 2023. CapEx increased sharply at €38 million. We invested just under €20 million in 2023. In fact, we couldn't invest because we're emerging from COVID. We couldn't get the equipment that's now being delivered. They're paid. We're upping our capacity, and conversely, we had a big cost of CapEx with the acquisition of Sonarome in 2023 that we didn't have in 2024.
The acquisition for EUR 6 million, is that a Phasex acquisition. On that, we had a more favorable cash position in 2024 than 2023, Free cash flow of EUR 74 million as compared to just over EUR 20 million in 2023. Yes. I put in the comments here because a key comment here was approved by the board meeting on Friday. We will propose at the general meeting in June this year the payment of a dividend of EUR 10 per share, knowing that last year we paid out EUR 8.50 per share, the year prior to that also. We have canceled part of our treasury stock in February 2025 with a slight equity effect on remaining stock. Now that we look to the financials, the second last part to inform you of major changes of the company.
The five strategic pillars previously presented were more than ever actual. Sustainability, ESG, globalization, brand of the Robertet brand, although we're a B2B company, has an outstanding brand equity that we plan to nurture, grow our teams and their IT capabilities, industrial capacities that are major investment drivers for us. To illustrate, I'm going to hand over to Julien.
Hello, everybody. To talk about innovation, which is really part of our growth strategy, there are three subjects I'd like to look at. First of all, we have CleanR Center, which deals with the actual natural aspect of our products. CleanR Center is a range of eco-designed products. They are 100% biodegradable, and they have a sustainable alternative to hexane, which is used widely in our industry.
Here we have ingredients that have as much of an effect as hexane products, but these are hexane-free, and therefore it allows perfumers, for example, to have something which is more sustainable. There is Naturia. Naturia is a generative AI assistant. It's not really going to replace perfumers, but it's just to enhance their everyday performances because normally they are working with approximately 1,000 formulae per year, and it's difficult to remember what they've worked on two years ago or five years ago. Obviously, with this sort of tool, they can actually have better efficiency and also more creativity. This therefore allows them to think of mixes that they hadn't thought of before. We've already had successes with flavors and aromas. It's a different way of approaching things, quite different from our other colleagues because we are optimizing the work of flavorists without replacing them.
The last aspect is Villablue. This is, again, a nature-engaged project. The first two years are now completed. The first 20 startups have been concluded. Next week, we're going to actually be choosing amongst all of them, but we can say that the first two years have been excellent. It's allowed us to have a flow of companies going from agri-tech, extraction technology, tomorrow's brands or future brands, all the different aspects that concern our business line. We've had a lot of positive feedback from the companies themselves, but also from our clients. This year, we're going to be publishing our first sustainability performance report. This, of course, was a challenge for us, but it's also been a success. We have a company that has actually faced up to the challenge, but some key aspects are quite different that make Robertet stand out.
We have 64 verified or certified supply chains like UBT or For Life. This gives us 250 certified products for our clients. This, in fact, is in keeping with what demand requires, particularly in Europe, and they want our products to have the sustainable stamp on them so that they can actually sell that on to their customers. Also, we have reduced scope one and two carbon intensity. We are working on scope three, but that is a huge task, and it will take several years. We are already present in this area, and some of our steps are having their effect. Also, we have reduced water use and intensity by 36%. This is, again, this is all going in the right direction. I think the goals are pitched very high, but we are really working. As Jerome told you, EcoVadis has given us a platinum rating.
Now, we also have an acquisition strategy, which is very targeted. We're not just doing this merely to get more profits or more business. Our idea is really to complete our geographical palette or our products range. This is either to keep our leadership in the area of natural products. This is also the case so that we can use innovative technology. We have worked, for example, on special extractions of supercritical CO2 for natural products. We've already done this in Europe, but we also want to do this for our ingredients in North America. This is therefore really quite interesting, particularly with the new tariffs that are going to be set up. Also, what we wish to do is complete or add to our geographical presence. This is the case in India, for example. Here, for example, we have integrated the company.
Sometimes they talk about small acquisitions, but for EBITDA, this does have an impact not only in India but also in other parts of the world, such as Africa. Thank you,
Thanks, Julien. I'll just end with the outlook for 2025. As we explained in the press release this morning, we have Q1 sales up 5.5% and at 4.7% at constant exchange rates and scope. That's moderate. I mean, it's in line with the average trend of the past five years when we speak of organic growth. Given the daily news flow, as we said since last year, this is rather a year of consolidation and return to normal. 2024 was both excellent but somewhat outstanding with the restocking and top line and some kind of cost upticks. We're expecting a return to a normal conventional year in 2025 as the year progresses. We are showing optimism.
We're positive with sales is at an all-time high in Q1 2025, up 5% versus double digits last year, and cautious optimism for the remainder of the year. Those are the points I wish to share with you following on from the press release. This is pretty much in line with what we presented to you last year. No major revolution underway at Robertet. Really just to give you an update on what we've said about the model, a model that has strong roots with the Maubert family, which is the majority shareholder. As you've seen through the shareholder adjustment, last November's confirmed its resolve of independence. The natural specialty that has been the case for 175 years will be celebrating the 175th anniversary seed to scent vertical integration, seed to scent.
At a time when many of our peers are diversifying, we want a fragrance and flavor approach and not to move away from that core business. The general trend of clean labels and sustainability gives us an advantage with many clients to leverage our natural ingredients specialty. Lastly, we're fortunate through our intermediate size to have access to all sorts of clients. Three major groups at the heart of our commercial success are groups of clients. The first are brands managed by their founder. Thanks to our size and agility, nimbleness, we have access to these new brands. There are clients whom I would term regional champions, family, medium-sized companies who like to work with a company that's somewhat different from other market companies.
We're seeing in many regions of the world there's a real presence of these intermediate-sized companies who know their consumers and markets very well. With large groups like every with a perhaps a weight slightly different to that of our major peers, but that allows us to keep a foothold in large companies and big opportunities. I said we're well placed to leverage rising demand for natural ingredients. The foremost priority is to roll out Robertet in the southern hemisphere. Traditionally, in our investments, we've been highly focused on Europe and the United States. We're not going to stop, but we do need to focus additional efforts in the southern hemisphere, Asia, both Northern Asia, China, and Southern Asia. That is the major growth reservoir going forward, not forgetting significant potential in the Middle East and Latin America, as shown by the 2024 results.
The need to invest investment for us is essentially industrial CapEx investment. To a lesser extent in IT, we've decided to unify our databases to give a stronger globalization going forward through an integrated IT capability. Lastly, R&D investment. We're an industry that invests between innovation and creation, that invests about 8% of its sales in innovation and expansion. Of course, next to that, we're facing challenges. First and foremost, nothing new. Heightened regulations with more and more constraints have banned products, more and more products that lead to changes in our formulas. We have creative and regulatory teams that have grown some. Major geopolitical challenges. They've been around for some time. We supply 1,600 natural products from 60 countries. That transits via some pretty hazardous straits. See, that's a geopolitical risk.
Added to that, there's a tariff risk in the U.S., which clearly for us is a challenge. Climate challenges, global warming, and our dependence on natural ingredients. We have to, of course, pay close attention to crops, agricultural changes. We have some measures to mitigate those risks through short-term diversification and mid and long-term use of technology. As always, as ever, there are surprises in terms of raw material price fluctuations, big energy issues in 2024. We expect things to be a lot calmer in 2025, but there are sometimes sharp hikes of certain raw materials. Coffee, cocoa, patchouli. There are sometimes difficulties in passing on these tariff hikes to our clients, but it goes quite well. We plan to exceed by 2030 EUR 1 billion sales. That was set out back in 2020 by our Chairman, Philippe Maubert, and to continue to grow EBITDA.
Unfortunately, we're in an industry where there are ups and downs in purchasing prices. EBITDA is directly correlated to that. Looking mid to long term, we're continually improving our EBITDA through our size and number of operational efforts made to better integrate the group. That's what I wish to share with you this morning. Thanks for your attention. We're now going to open up to Q&A with two questions flows. Those in the room and questions put by our guests who are joining us remotely. Let's start with questions in the room. Bonjour, Stéphane.
Hello. I'm Ineos Stéphane. I have three different questions for you. First of all, let's look at the results themselves. I'd like to come back to the past.
If I look at depreciation and provisions, you have €32 million, which is planned for, which seems slightly high because I think for the provisions, you've said for the flavors, you had some difficulties and you might be restructuring. This is particularly for some of the following some of the acquisitions. Which part of the €32 million comes from depreciation? Which part comes from provisions? Also, to go back to some other aspect, again, on flavors, what are the margins that you have and how can we improve on that? I know that this particular sector has been a bit complicated. That's my first question. My second question, I'd like to go back to the first quarter, which was slightly slower than the second quarter compared to looking at the two.
Can we have a little more information, a sort of breakdown on what comes from flavors, raw materials, and perfumes for these organic sections anyway, departments, so that we can understand what's been happening and why there was the slowdown? Finally, again, following on from the what is forecast and a little more on Q1 and Q2 and Q3, Givaudan has said that there's been an increase in prices, that things are slowing down, and that this is going to be offset and passed on. Do you think you are also going to have the same approach, that is, raw material prices are going up and so the prices will be passed on? Also, do you think in 2025 this is going to be a reality given the raw material prices? What about the tariff hikes? Are you also going to include that?
There are lots of questions about that. I'm not going to go into details because I'm sure that other people will ask these questions. Just to come back to the increase in the prices and how this is going to offset your cost increases. Thank you very much.
I'll try to remember the three questions. Let me start off with the first one, which is the depreciation and provisions. I don't have all the figures, but both have gone up quite a lot. I think, once again, we've got to compare an average rather than the lowest point, which was in 2023. We've looked at investment costs. This was for logistics. There was a catch-up in 2024. Also, there was a speeding up. Here, when I'm talking about the speeding up, it was caused by three different sources of investments.
First of all, in industrial units in Asia and Latin America, we're doubling our production capacity in Mexico. We're building a plant in Indonesia. All of this obviously has an effect on depreciation. We've also had large IT programs, part of them in the CapEx, part of them out of the CapEx. Also, we have been aligning with the different civilization requirements in Grasse. This is something that required a certain amount of investments as well. This is in keeping with what civilization has been asking for. Structurally speaking, we've obviously had to increase our industrial production and our IT contribution as well. If you look at the 2020, don't look at the lowest point in 2023, but if you look at the average, the investments were approximately EUR 25 million.
I think during the month of May at the CMD, we will give you a little more information. I think we'll be investing between EUR 30 million and EUR 35 million rather than EUR 20 million-EUR 25 million as in the past. This is to keep with the targets that we have. This explains all these different issues, capacity agreement, catching up, and this is why in 2024 we had a higher CapEx. Now, concerning the provisions here, one point is the sales of one of our activities. This is Sirius, which is a company that has officially been put up for sale. We're looking for a purchaser, and it deals with essential oils. It doesn't really fit in with Robertet's activities. It's a B2C, and therefore we have some commitments with this company. We have provisions that take this into consideration.
On the other hand, we also have, as you noted, recently we have had some difficulties concerning the flavors in the U.K. We have to be prepared for a structural change, particularly concerning the historical management structure that we had in the U.K. That answers your first question. Your second question concerned flavors. Yes. No, no, I am just trying to remember what you were saying. This concerned the Q1 prices. Yes. Now, concerning flavors, your question, and this concerns profitability. What are your prospects for the year to come? For flavor, we have a profitability level which is good. I think we are going to be publishing this. I do not have the figures in mind, but the EBIT is approximately two or three percentage points away from the perfumery. Good levels.
These are slightly different structures with flavors because the margins are slightly less good, but the volume is greater. Production levels and follow-up costs are actually better offset. We get EBITDAs, which are fairly good. The main question, and there has not actually been any deterioration in profitability. However, for flavors, there has been a growth which seems to be slightly slower in 2024. This is due to effects of certain phenomena such as reduction of stocks in 2024. Also in the area of flavors, there has also been a slowdown in the U.K. where for the time being, the flavors seem to be lying fairly flat. There are some flavors that have also given us an increase in margins. Also, there have been some co-lists, some flavors that have been added to our co-list. The fact that we are using natural products.
We talked about clean legals earlier on. This is definitely the case for flavors. It is the case now that the cosmetic sector is using these particular products. As in the fragrance market, we also have possibilities in the emerging markets because we are not really very present in China or Indonesia for the time being. We are going to be working on that in the years ahead. Therefore, I feel that perhaps for flavors, the year was slightly lower in results, but this was due to occasional events. I think we will be working on emerging markets and natural flavors, and this will correct things. Now, concerning Q1, I think the first thing that is important is that the fragrance division is continuing at pace and at a very good pace. Also, we have flavors that correspond to what we had in 2024.
I hope also that there may be some difficulties on, for example, the U.S. market. For raw materials, there seems to be a good pace again. I think we can once again say that we're going back to normal levels, 3% to 4% growth. The additional amount that got us to 5.2% was from the fragrance. Yes. One other point, one other question was on potential increase in raw material prices. Yeah, I don't think we can actually have any stable position on that. It changes every day. We're waiting for the rules and regulations to level out. Things have changed a great deal in the last few weeks. It is quite clear that there will be issues at stake. The customs tariffs will go up in the U.S., and this will have an effect on American business.
The only way in the short term to react is with reciprocal tariffs. We're trying to see what we could do at an international level and what we could actually do occasionally as a one-off action in the U.S. Obviously, we will have to have some sort of reaction so that we can offset these hikes. This is what we've done in the past when we had hyperinflation. We target specific points. We have partnerships that we work on, but the costs will be there. I think everybody knows this. There'll be a mix of tariffs and a hike in productivity. What about Europe? You talked about Givaudan, but it's also an increase in raw materials. This is in Europe and other parts of the world. Will this have something that you've got to look at as well when you look at your costs?
Raw materials have gone up again. Again, we're in a sector where we don't try to actually have a huge impact continuously on prices. We're not actually anticipating or planning how to cover very high increases in other markets apart from the United States or Latin America maybe. As far as pricing is concerned, we only sell natural raw materials. Here, things are more or less automatic. The premium comes from the added value that comes from the natural product. Therefore, this increases our margin, which remains more or less in pace with the increase or drop in raw material costs. Obviously, there are some clients who understand this perfectly, who understand that there would be increases, but you have some customers or clients who are more complex, who buy a bit of everything. There, it's a little more difficult for them.
We have to deal with that raw material by raw material. What we plan to do is not increase our margins for them, but just spread it out differently. Thank you.
[Foreign language] Yes, from Kepler, two or three questions just to pick up on tariffs. The products that you're exporting to the U.S. tax at 10%, yeah, those coming from Europe, absolutely. You can start from that assumption. Once again, there's the European portion that's quite marginal. What you need to know is that the major source of supply, notably of synthetic products, is China. Today, many synthetic products are only available in China. When you're in any of our subsidiaries, when you buy your natural ingredients, you're buying them from Grasse with the 10% import tax. In our formulations, there are synthetics produced in China.
Essentially, we try and produce close to the clients, Europe for European clients, in the U.S. for American. You're going to have synthetic commodities sourced in China, imported by our U.S. subsidiary that will be subject to major customs tariffs. We have to wait for stabilized policies from the U.S., and we respond with a tariff hike that will partly offset this increase in production costs. Okay. In Q1, you haven't revised your prices, your tariffs upward. That means in the coming quarters, you see a far stronger price or tariff impact. Waiting for the rules to stabilize. Clearly, yes, there was no impact in Q1. The effects will arrive now. Second point on demand, how far is demand insensitive to price increase? Or put differently, if prices rise too high, maybe demand won't be there. I'm thinking of the end user, end consumer.
That is for sure. Once in the U.S., if there is an inflation that is generated, I read in press a number of increases programmed by some of our clients, and that will clearly have an impact on demand. You cannot win on all fronts. There is a risk that the price hikes and production costs are passed on to price increase in consumer goods and that these consumer goods in the U.S. will show signs of weakening. That is quite possible. For Robertet, what always helps us some is that we are primarily with more niche products that very often are rather sophisticated, high-value-added products where the price factor is perhaps less sensitive than on consumer goods. SMG, four questions. The reformulations, could you say a bit more? Because in the industry, it is a critical issue. How long it takes, front-loaded initial cost. Is it more opportunity than a chance?
Talk to us about reformulations. On the tariffs, if you want to increase prices, how long does it take? Because if you're working with Coke or Pepsi or major food manufacturers, I mean, can you adjust or not? That's my third question. Exposure to the dollar, that things are moving fast. Final question, have there been additional costs for the reformulation this time of shareholdership, share ownership? There were one-off costs for the last year's transactions. Thanks for your question. On the reformulations, I won't be able to give you very detailed information if only to confirm that it's one of the activities of F&F by definition. Regulation is changing. That's the prime source of reformulation because an ingredient that is banned requires us to reformulate all the flavors or fragrances that it contains.
In our creative activity, it's about 20% of the time spent by our teams in reformulating, to which I add the purely tactical side because there are clients that ask for a reformulation to save money. If you've got the cocoa crisis, you've got a lot of clients who come to reformulate products with a bit less cocoa, a bit more flavoring. That requires a formulation without any creative value added, but for the sake of compliance or efficiency. That activity is high, but it's not stable. There's no particular acceleration today in reformulation. It's flat. If you've got price changes, material, but no recent acceleration. Historically, it's far more than in the past. If we take the last two, there's no spectacular acceleration in reformulation. As to your question, it's both an opportunity and a threat.
The creative part is when you reformulate, you never formulate exactly as before. There is a consumer risk if ever the product deteriorates. And when you reformulate, opens up briefs, that is an opportunity there you can gain to you can benefit. Where a smaller player, we are often quite happy to be invited to briefs when formulas are rechallenged. That is your first question. Second point. Are the prices with Coke and Pepsi? Yeah. The time lag is obviously longer with big clients where there are bigger financial issues. The timeline is pretty much immediate on new products. 10%-15% of our activity is made up with new products. We have a free hand to adapt our prices to our costs. On existing products, where we have to have price hikes on constant products, there are two types of one-off negotiations when there are kind of flare-ups in certain ingredient prices.
That's easy when clients such as those you cited are very diversified with a lot of materials. It's more difficult there. It takes longer to negotiate during hype. Between the time we start negotiations and the tariff supply, the timeline can vary between three to six months. I know that your last question was on costs. Yeah, I can't. We're exposed 40% to the dollar. You saw the weight of North America for us, very significant. Other markets, 40% exposure, which is a lot. And cost base, we're far more European because most of our costs are at the head office in Grasse. We have plants everywhere, but in proportion, we're stronger in France and Grasse, where we're slightly less. The main exposure that we saw in the past was the top-line exposure.
That top-line is quite dependent on the dollar because we're exposed in the U.S. at 40%. We will be following closely the gap between the costs planned by financial institutions and what we see today, which is very different, which will, of course, weigh in our tariff price increases in North America. The last question on operation, there have been no additional costs linked to the share capital increase. [Foreign language]
I'd just like to come back to the vision of the impact. You talked about Sirius. I don't have figures in mind, and I'm talking about acquisitions here and M&A. As far as the margin is concerned, is this something which is profitable? No. Yeah, I just wanted to know what the potential impact would be on margins and also Phasex. I think it was about $6 million, if I remember.
No, Phasex, I think you've got to look at it as an industrial investment. Sometimes we always think of it as an acquisition, but obviously, Sonarome is our business acquisition. But Phasex, we actually gained technical capacity and production capacity. There is, of course, a slight effect on the turnover, but it's very margin. There's toll manufacturing, which is a very small margin, but we didn't buy Phasex for its business, but we bought it so that we could develop our ingredients, produce them ourselves, and sell them to our American clients. That's what we're actually working on. A few days ago, I was in the United States. We got a contract for a peanut extractor. As everybody knows, this is very popular in the United States. It's very high quality because we're going to be using this special supercritical CO2 technical technology.
This is the sort of thing we're talking about. To come back to the CapEx for investments, you've said that you're going to invest between EUR 30 million and EUR 35 million, most of it in Indonesia, where you're building a plant for flavors. Yes, one, which will be doing both. And China as well? Yes, we already have it. My question about flavors, some years ago, you modernized your plant in Grasse, which is a perfume. It's an automated plant. Are you planning to do the same thing with the flavors plant in Grasse? It's in the pipeline, not necessarily for 2025. You're right. It is a midterm. Our short-term project is to increase our production capacities, particularly in areas where growth is high. Midterm, medium-term plan, most of the costs are going to be in the years ahead.
What we want to try to do is continue with automation. We're talking about Grasse, but we're talking about all our plants where we're going to be working on automation in the United States, in China, because we have productivity gains that we wish to get from the automation of these plants. Also, just to look at the case of Grasse, there are also high investments that will be made because, as you know, we have two industrial plants in Grasse. We are planning, at least in the midterm, to merge them into one single one. Here, this will give us additional synergy, and it will simplify production methods and also will increase productivity. This will increase the CapEx. Again, we're working on more specific simulations, and we will share that with the CND. Let's go back to the United States.
We've talked about this a lot. You said that in the fourth quarter, it was quite low concerning flavors, actually going down, yes, all over the United States and also for fragrances. Fragrances, no, we're not actually giving figures out because I'm not absolutely sure about them. Once again, we could say that the starting of the year at the United States for all the different divisions is lower than what was expected and is therefore making us quite cautious about the year. Now, have you carried out a crash test? What's likely to happen with the tariffs? Would there be a drop of 5% in volume, or do you think that given the contracts that you've already signed, you should be fairly resilient? Concerning your own customer base, you feel fairly sure that the drop in volume in Q1 will be contained.
Is that how you feel? Our feeling is that generally and overall, we're fairly positive about the United States. I'm talking about the top line. The feeling for the whole year is generally quite positive. I'm putting in parentheses the effects from the tariffs because obviously, the effect of these tariffs and reciprocal action is going to have some way of balancing them out or making the effect minimum. I think we are less exposed with synthetic products. I think it's the Chinese synthetic materials that are going to be the most taxed and the most affected. I think in the United States, in fact, the year is going to be a little more turbulent than in the past. I think the entire industry is going to be affected.
I think Robertet is going to have the obligation or will have no other choice but to put its prices up. Obviously, everything is going to depend on consumption. The tariffs, the increase in the customs taxes, I think we are all going to be using the same methods. In the midterm, at least, we do not think that the increases should reduce consumption or demand. Once again, I would like to come back to our customer base. Given the fact that it is structured in a certain way, we are more exposed, particularly concerning new business, because this is the case with new companies, new products, emerging companies, more niche markets. Our performance driver was really how to get these new customers and support new entrepreneurs.
On that segment, there does not seem to be any weakening when I look at the creative side of things and the number of new contracts. That is actually on the up, and that is what we are concentrating on, even if the basic activity has obviously now been subjected to certain risks.
[Foreign language] Thanks. I had three questions. The first on capital allocation, about 6% of capital reduced in terms of treasury shares. Potentially, they were going to use it as a bargaining chip with family groups. I mean, there has been a change to use those shares for that purpose. You have been CEO for quite a while now. Have you seen an impact that is more operational on your win rate, on new briefs, on more structural changes affecting the organization at Robertet and maybe a preview on the CMD?
I don't recall there's been an event organized in the past. What's the goal, and what are we to expect for that CMD? Thank you for those questions. The first question, which was the cancellation of treasury shares that Robertet did in February at the OPAS and the acquisition of 9.9% of the share capital, had three purposes. One, a creative potential acquisition and to reboost management. We were setting ourselves two, three years to the use of those free shares. We're two and a half years on, and we decided that some of those would probably not be necessary for an M&A. That's why we kept 75,000 to be precise. That would be our kind of partial bargaining chip in case of M&A, but we've got sufficient leverage given our targets.
As Julien Maubert recalled, we had pretty kind of small to medium-sized targets, but no big acquisitions. For these bolt-on acquisitions, 75% to be used as an exchange currency to complement, not in replacing the cash, but useful for that level while keeping in share capital shares that are perhaps maybe surplus to our requirements. It is really an update after three years of our need for flexibility in terms of M&A because of our M&A policy. Second, impact on win rate, brief, etc. Just let me say that I'm CEO and not Chairman because we separated the function between Chairman Philippe Maubert and my job as CEO. I'll be simple and humble. I don't think there's any direct impact on this. I'm thinking more of the impacts that we put in place over the past three years. We're more fit for purpose to address the new markets.
I sense a renewed and a heightened ambition in the new markets for us, Asia, Middle East, and Latin America. This effort is beginning to produce its effects. We want to streamline certain things, stock or cash management and other things. We are reaping the financial benefits on that front by better integrating Robertet, where an international group presently of 50% generating 80% of its sales abroad outside France. It is important that all subsidiaries should follow the group's toe the line, but through tools and a more international culture, find sources of productivity going forward. CMD, a preview.
It's the first Robertet CMD, 22nd of May 2025, a CMD that's to give people a deep dive in the Robertet universe that's quite unique and original of natural ingredients to know our value chain that goes from the field to the fragrances, discover the fields, the plants, how we plan to leverage them from as competitive edges creation, what we sell to our clients, a deep dive on that, and on the financial renew our ambitions and our growth and productivity levers and to give some items of information of how Robertet plans to accelerate its growth and heighten its synergies and efficiencies in-house. Let's end with the webcast. Take two questions from the webcast, and then we'll continue up. [Foreign language] .
There's the first question on fragrances. If we had customers who might overstock in anticipation of the tariffs to be able to export to them on the U.S. The second question is about the beginning of QT and changes in the order pattern. Concerning the first question, we have not actually found any difference in the stocking up of our clients on Q1. In fact, it was normal for Q1. There was a slight slowing down in Q2. There was no overstocking or hoarding to be able to plan ahead and anticipate tariffs. I can say that for the other divisions as well. There has been no change in the behavioral patterns of our customers. Concerning your order books, yes, I think that since the end of 2023, we can see that orders are more split up and fragmented. There are fewer long-term commitments. This is since COVID, actually.
As we've also said quite regularly, at the end of 2023, there was a change in the way of thinking or paradigm. After COVID, at the end of 2023 and 2024, there was a rush on ingredients. There was a correction at the end of 2023, but the correction itself was also slightly excessive, and it led to this stocking up. I think it's mainly the order method or behavior is more fragmented, less forward planning, and it's not for a question of overstocking. Your second question on the EBITDA, for example, do we think that we will be able to keep our EBITDA margin in 2025? As I said earlier on, it's really we're looking more at the midterm. Our aim is that our 2025 EBITDA would be between the 19.5% of 2024 and 18.4% of 2023.
We want to get an average which is between those two. That would be a step up concerning reaching 18% or 19%, whereas 15 years ago, we were at 15% or 16%. Even for the midterm, that is what we're planning for. For short-term forecasts, it's really difficult because obviously this depends on raw material costs, purchase costs, and here there can be fluctuations. What's important is to keep our midterm plans without actually preempting what we're saying for the CMD. We were from 5%-6% bracket. Now we're 18%-19%, and in 2030, we want to go beyond 20%, 2021. That's the way we want to improve continuously by optimizing our business and our activities. It's obviously very difficult to give any guidance for 2025. These are goals rather than guidance so that we can keep our EBITDA margin.
Another question that was asked on Villablue, how much of Robertet's capital was actually invested in Villablue and how can we actually measure its success from a business point of view? What are the incentives that are made available to those working in Villablue? Let's just say that the cost is fairly low. There is an operating cost which is due to the building itself and to some of the employees. There are just three or four people who are employed, and the initial contribution was EUR 100,000. This is what we've done in other startups. That is the initial investment, EUR 500,000 in operating costs for the building and the employees. The actual capital costs would be investments in some of the startups who may be particularly promising in the first six months. We haven't as yet sold off any of the companies. Villablue is only two years old.
Some of the startups joined a year ago, some joined six months ago. We found that to give them the right sort of support, we should plan for approximately a three- or four-year cycle. In 2025, we might have the first sale of one of these companies. Again, the approach was really to concentrate on innovation, to look at how innovation is evolving and how some of these companies or brands could really be useful and active and successful in the years ahead. In Villablue, sales are very low. What we are trying to do for these small companies is to have sales. We are trying to help them with that. Also, these companies, when they are part of Villablue, and I said they will be there for about three or four years, there will also be capital call-ups.
During those periods, and again, the periods are quite short, it is in those moments that we will be able to really know what the worth of the company is. For the time being, all the indicators are open. Now, incentives, we do not have any special incentives. Robertet is a family company, and we believe that people are actually working without needing incentives. It is more a question of being a constructive builder rather than giving incentives. We are not actually working on acceleration, which is uncalled for, or giving these sorts of business encouragements of that sort. We are working on helping the startups and the companies to build their own business without giving these sort of accelerators in the form of incentives. We are not involved or interested in the capitalistic value of these companies.
I think we've answered most of the questions from the webcast, and now we can go back to the room. Somebody else wanted to ask for the floor.
[Foreign language] Yeah, thanks. Covia Finance. I've got a question. What you mentioned earlier, your three different categories of clients, can we have an order of magnitude? You say that local clients, startup, dynamic were the most significant. Could you, for 2024, what the sales split and going forward five years, I mean, has it changed radically versus the past? Secondly, have you sensed in your activities impacts of M&A deals in the sector with maybe loss of clients on their side who've come to you? In terms of the dividend, didn't calculate the payout it represents, but this is new dividend policy. The payout ratio, is that the payout ratio that we need to retain going forward?
For the clients, I'll talk to you really about the perception. We don't have a reliable information system to give you the detail. We'll do a partial analysis at the CMD to give you more. It would be a bit of an exaggeration to try and give you the figures, but I can talk about a perception that goes for all divisions. That's to say that these past few years, we've benefited from the success of a number of niche brands. When I look at these brands that start from zero that were clients mentioned by Rasasi, [Foreign language] in the US, to some obesity in China, we'd been in Brazil, or Rasasi in Dubai. These are clients that represent nothing with Robertet five years ago and to today represent a significant portion of the sales. Yes, we were driven in the fragrances of the niche fragrances.
To a lesser extent, we're seeing this trend continuing for flavors. I'll take the emergence of some new markets of low alcohol or alcohol-free beverages in the U.S. that emerged three or four years ago, and Robertet has the lion's share and a reputation that's very significant. It's less visible in flavors because it's gone via major players that we've serviced, and they remain very stable. We have both clients of smaller brands working very well with rather sophisticated products or new emerging brands. We saw that emerge in the U.S. with beverage companies that were losing ground, relaunching with original beverages and consulting Robertet, well positioned on natural ingredients, nimble to offer solutions. That's a significant portion of our top-line sales. That's for the emerging brand side, but we'll give you more details in spite of the complexity of the information at the upcoming CMD. Next questions.
I'll repeat those for the webcast. The dividend. The dividend, I won't characterize it as a new dividend policy. We plan to invest the majority of our profits in the business. I cited the need for CapEx and the investment flow for M&A, but you'll have seen the payout ratio has trended positively, nearing gradually the 30% mark. Clients turnover of our competition, I mean, does that have an impact, positive impact, major M&A deals, Faivre-Dupont a few years back, or DSM, Firmenich? I think the impact isn't enormous. The behavior of the major clients of these major houses is broadly stable. We've leveraged our growth on companies with a somewhat different profile. What we've often asked our clients is if they viewed favorably the one-stop shopping solution by offering a very broad panorama of specialties. The response wasn't always positive.
They'd rather have specialized niche players rather than a player with all skills. That means that we're kind of highly focused, highly specialized in the F&F sector. The question should be put to our major equivalent peers of these companies because they share the clients of that size. We haven't signed any particular attraction linked to that, but no kind of major change in behavior on the part of those clients, I'd say. For the time being, we've neither suffered nor benefited. What we just sense on the part of clients is when companies merge, they necessarily face a lot of internal challenges that can sometimes pose challenges and difficulties, but it wasn't necessarily reflected by a particular boost in any way. Thanks.
[Foreign language]
Last question. Thank you. Hello everybody. I'll be brief. How are you planning to protect yourself, and what sort of edge are you going to give yourself with the dollar fluctuation? Again, we have some sort of protection from currency fluctuations, and we're going to hedge ourselves in a rather conservative, traditional way. That's the nature of the house of our company. We are fairly conservative, and we'll just manage it on a daily basis. I think we've got to be as safe as possible. One last question. Yes, another quick question. You spoke about your customer base and the customer structure, which is actually more interested in the new products and new issues. Do you have a customer spread? Do you have an idea of how they are spread out worldwide? Is there an increase also in the United States?
Do you have any special cover for the—are you talking about a financial cover or what sort of cover? Yes. It's again your edge. We do not have any world or global figures concerning our customer spread. When you look at our top 100 customers, you can see that many of them were not around a few years ago, so they are new. I think worldwide, we can see there are more new clients on our different markets and also for new products. On local markets, again, we can say that local nimble customers seem to be more active than global markets or customers because frequently these companies come to us because they know that we are creative, innovative, and nimble with small companies.
They may be family businesses, and they like working with other family businesses because it gives a certain form of stability. We see that all these sorts of clients are actually becoming more numerous, and this allows us to boost growth. To give you details about the spread of these clients and what they represent, no. Concerning the financial edge over raw materials, I'll let Julien answer that one. With the microphone, please. To answer your question, our prices on raw materials actually anticipate for approximately a period of three or six months on the markets. It is much more difficult once the harvesting is finished to actually be able to anticipate. Raw material costs that are actually going to be used by our divisions and sold, it is the replacement price. It is not a real price.
We try to anticipate as much as possible. We try to get as much information from the source, and we try to therefore get an idea of what the market's going to look like in three or six months' time. Thank you.
I think we have reached the end of our session. I'd like to thank all of you for being here and for having attended. Thank you for your questions, and I hope that we will meet again next year for our annual results. There is the CMD in Grasse for some of you, and in September, you will have your quarterly report as well. Thank you.