Hello everyone and welcome to Poznań. You may probably wonder why did we fly you all the way from London, Paris, Barcelona, Madrid, and beyond to brave the Polish cold, because it looks like it's going to be snowing in a few minutes. As you may have seen, we announced a major acquisition in the U.S. last Friday in hazardous waste, one of our key boosters. Today we're not going to talk about boosters. We're going to talk about strongholds, because at Veolia we love our boosters, but we absolutely love our strongholds too. It is the combination of both which defines our strategy and makes us who we are. I guess Poznań is a perfect example of that stronghold in action. This city is in the middle of a remarkable transformation.
For decades, Poznań relied on coal to keep its people warm through harsh winters. The city made a bold decision to fundamentally reimagine the future of energy without coal. What we are inaugurating today is proof that this vision is real. By 2030, which is just five years from now, Poznań will have a 100% coal-free urban heating network. This is not aspirational; it is already on the way. Today, you have understood we are not just inaugurating infrastructure. We are sharing a blueprint for how Europe reinvents its energy, city by city and network by network, building resilience from local resources, proving that security, affordability, and sustainability can go hand in hand. Let me take you through that journey. Let me start by taking you back to a moment we all remember: February 2022, the world turned overnight when the war in Ukraine began.
Energy, something we've taken for granted for so long, suddenly became fragile, uncertain. The crisis revealed a hard truth: we had built our prosperity on a foundation we didn't fully control. Crises clarify. What emerged was a new energy equation for our clients. They need local energy production so that they can see, touch, and control. They need affordability because energy poverty is real. They need stability, which is predictable cost and predictable supply. They need energy efficiency because the cheapest energy is the energy we don't waste. They need flexibility as well, systems that adapt to changing demand and intermittent renewables. They need, of course, decarbonization because the climate crisis hasn't paused while we dealt with the energy crisis. Those cannot be competing priorities. They almost be delivered simultaneously. Where does Veolia fit into this new landscape? Let me paint the picture.
In 2024, Veolia generated EUR 45 billion of revenues. We are known, obviously, for water, for waste, for environmental services. Many people do not realize energy represents already 25% of our business. This is EUR 11 billion. Another EUR 1 billion on top in energy revenue from our waste and wastewater businesses. Every year we sell mainly heat. This is 51 TWh , sorry, of heat, which is enough to warm 7 million people through the cold winters. That is equivalent to heating every single household in Berlin and Madrid combined. As a byproduct, we sell electricity as well: 13 TWh of electricity, equivalent to powering 1 million people. We have made deliberate choices about who we are and who we are not. We do not build massive centralized power plants.
What we do is this: we work at the scale of a community, a city, a district, an industrial park, a building. We focus on urban heating networks, which is, in a way, the circularity systems of cities' energy. We develop bioenergy and renewable solutions, turning waste into a resource. We create flexibility solutions, helping grid balance and adapt. We deliver energy efficiency for buildings, ensuring there is not a single megawatt hour wasted. What truly sets us apart: we are the only player who can orchestrate all these solutions together as a complete kind of ecosystem. When our competitors usually do one thing well, we do everything integrated, kind of an ecosystem where nothing is wasted, where local solutions create local resilience. That is who we are: new urban energy specialists. Now, today we are going to focus on one of our favorite strongholds: urban heating networks.
Let me show you why this sector is kind of having its moment as we speak. Let me start with a number that surprises most people. In Europe, 50% of all energy consumed is heat. Not electricity, heat. This is warmth for homes, hot water, industrial processes, half of everything. Yet three quarters of this heat still comes from fossil fuel. The good news? We've already made progress. What remains to be done represents a massive opportunity going forward. Regulation is accelerating this shift. I'm thinking of, for instance, the EU Renewable Energy Directives, as well as the U.K.'s Energy Act, just to mention a few, all pushing hard in the same direction. The targets are breathtaking: 17 million additional European citizens connected by 2030, in addition to the 80 million which already are, plus efficiency standards which are rising dramatically.
This is transformation at scale, and it's happening now. What makes us claim the leadership in this space? Let me tell you what makes us different. First, our scale and local presence. Heating networks are not just infrastructure. They are relationship. They are proximity. They are responsiveness. Think, you know, with the weather like we have today, when something goes wrong at 3:00 A.M. in the morning in the winter, we are there. Second, our public procurement expertise. We understand cities, local authorities, hospitals, universities. In a way, at Veolia, we speak the language of public service. Third, and this is crucial, our ability to combine Veolia activities. Because we are in water, we can tap into wastewater treatment plants as heat resources. Because we are in waste, we can access wood, biogas, wasted heat. Fourth, our efficiency expertise.
We create value through transformation, taking underperforming assets and making them perform. Fifth, our decarbonization know-how. We specialize in coal phase-out, building new plants and operating them. Of course, you cannot stop one whilst you're dealing with the other one. We ensure service continuity. Very few energy players can claim this at the scale we do. To put it simply, we're not just energy providers. We are urban energy transformers. Let me show you now how we've built this leadership position over the years. We started in France in basically the 1980s, learning the business and developing our expertise. We understood clearly, quickly, the real transformation would happen in Central and Eastern Europe, where cities were built around massive district heating, serving millions of people but running on coal. We moved east and we grew through different pathways. First, privatization.
When cities opened their network to private operators, we were there. I'm thinking of Warsaw in 2011, the largest heating network in the EU. More recently, in Tashkent in 2022, our first concession in Central Asia, serving 1 million people. Yes, we're speaking big numbers here. Second, decarbonization. Cities that wanted to phase out coal but didn't know how. That's Poznań in 2002, where we stand today, or Prague in 2016. Each time we took on the challenge of transforming networks, we're keeping the heat flowing. Today, we operate around 500 heating networks worldwide. We serve 7 million customers. Roughly, this is 9% of all connected Europeans. This didn't happen by accident. We built all those assets city by city and one promise delivered after one promise delivered. Look at the map we've built over those years.
Each dot represents a Veolia-owned or operated district heating network, from Harbin to Tashkent, from Warsaw to Prague. I wish this map were a film rather than a picture, because you would see how the footprint is growing and still is through different dynamics. Privatization, as I already mentioned, where government brings in specialists to make aging infrastructure more efficient, leveraging the latest technology. This is as well expansion, because existing networks grow as the city grows. This is more district, more building, more connections. We have a few greenfields as well. New networks built from scratch in developing districts in the way of 21st century from day one. Three pathways, but all growing simultaneously. Here is the crucial point: on every single dot on the map, we are locally embedded. We employ local people. We source local fuel. We serve local communities.
Let me go through the foundation and where the successes and the key promises on which we've built this portfolio. Efficiency, of course. We operate at 88% average efficiency across our portfolio. Some of our networks achieve even 94% compared to an average of 75% in Europe. That means less heat waste, lower costs, better performance, and lower CO2. Security, because we rely on diversified local sourcing of fuel. I estimate that in Europe, it's 400 GW of untapped resource that we can tap into, enough to cover the consumption of a country with over 50 million people. That's resilient built-in. Affordability, of course, is key. We protect customers against price volatility because when gas prices spiked in 2022, our customers with diversified local sources were largely insulated. Sustainability, because we use decarbonized energy. I'm talking about biomass, about waste heat, geothermal, solar, heat pumps.
Systematically, we're trying to replace fossil fuel by those. Increasingly, flexibility. We provide flexibility to electrical grids and balancing intermittent renewables with dispatchable combined heat and power. We are leveraging AI quite a lot to optimize network performance in real time, to predict demand, to manage loads, and to maximize efficiency. Everything I've just mentioned is not aspiration. Those are the solutions we are deploying right now. Let me be a bit more specific about a few items I just mentioned, starting with decarbonization, because this is not a slogan for us. It is a track record already. Look at those three projects on the map. Braunschweig, Germany.
We converted a coal plant, which dated from the Cold War, to biomass and natural gas, or Kolin and Přerov in the Czech Republic, where we shifted to refuse-derived fuel and biomass, working as well with local teams to retrain them to these types of new technologies, because you do not operate the boilers exactly in the same way as you used to when it was coal. Here, Poznań, the largest decarbonization project in our portfolio, where we are transforming a coal-dependent system into a hybrid model: natural gas, biomass, waste heat recovery. Of course, that is going to be detailed more in a minute. Across these three projects, we have achieved emission reduction between -45% and -60%. This is remarkable. We did that without any interruption in the service, not for one hour. Families stayed warm. We have invested EUR 700 million in these projects since 2018.
By the end of the decade, this is EUR 1.6 billion cumulative. Some may think decarbonization means sacrificing returns. We proved them wrong. This project delivers returns above 10%. Good for the planet, great for the business. Profitable decarbonization. That is Veolia's model. We go even further. We combine our businesses to create energy security. As I just alluded to, we are not just energy. We are water, waste, and energy. The combination unlocks what our competitors cannot match. London, SAVAC. We heat 5,000 households with energy from waste facilities we operate. Braunschweig. Our plant runs on 100% waste wood from Veolia's sorting plant nearby, so one business feeds another one. Budapest. We produce heat and coal from wastewater treatment plants we operate. This is a sewage network heating hospitals and universities. Here in Poznań, we capture waste heat from the Volkswagen Foundry.
Industrial heat, which would otherwise escape into the air, warms 6,500 homes. Local energy for local needs. That is resilience. That is sovereignty. That is security. Now, let's move on to efficiency, because, of course, this is as well what we deliver, and it goes hand in hand with affordability. We optimize energy efficiency across the entire value chain: production, distribution, and the combination of both. In production, we maximize output and minimize losses using digital tools and AI. This is cogeneration, smart monitoring, intelligent fuel management, and so on and so forth. In distribution, AI helps us optimize heat sources and allocate heat to the right place at the right time. As the system becomes more decentralized, this becomes essential. Here is where combining production and distribution creates real magic. We can store heat. Have a look this afternoon at the tower behind our plant.
This is not just one tower. This is 24,000 cu m of water storing 800 MWh of energy. To store that same energy, we would need, if we were to go for electric batteries, several hectares of land, not to mention the massive resources to produce those batteries. Here, everything fits in one tower. That is the power of thermal storage. Let me tell you now about a tale of two cities that we are building the future at now: Görlitz and Zgorzelec. You have probably never heard of them, I am guessing. One is in Germany. Mr. Mayor has, but of course, you know, like for the rest of the audience, maybe you have not. One is in Germany. The other one in Poland. They sit on the opposite side of the Nysa River. Today, we are connecting them.
We're building a connection between the two networks, one heating system crossing the border, connecting two countries. What's great about this project is we're taking decarbonization a step ahead. We're talking here of gas exits. How are we doing it? Local and sustainable biomass, heat pumps, solar thermal with storage, and e-boilers and waste heat to fill the gaps. A living laboratory, a proof of concept. In a way, a blueprint we aim at scaling across Europe. That brings me to the announcement I'm particularly excited about. You've understood we've spent three decades transforming and expanding district heating networks across Europe. We've proven it works. We've proven it's profitable. Now we're packaging everything we've learned into one comprehensive offer. Today, we're launching Ecothermal Grid. We know how to identify local energy sources and turn them into heat.
We know how to optimize network to the highest standard using the most recent technology. We do it every day in our own network. Now we want to make this expertise available to those who need it, not only for our own network, but for any city or any campus as well. Not only for large-scale, but small and medium-sized cities as well. What does it do? For existing network, keep your pipes, keep your network, only change the fuel. Geothermal, biomass, waste heat, biogas, same infrastructure, zero disruption, clean heat. For new districts, new developments, such as campuses or airports, built from scratch, 100% renewable from day one, AI-optimized, flexible, clean heat from the start. The opportunity here: EUR 4 billion addressable market. Our target is to reach EUR 350 million additional turnover by 2030.
I am pleased to announce we have already secured a first step in the U.K. with a cumulated GBP 1 billion pipeline and already great wins, including the Wellcome Genome Compressor Campus. Let me bring all this together now. Our 2030 ambition is clear: become the number one player in urban heating in Europe. Not number two, number one. Achieve coal exit across all of our European operations. Zero coal, that is a commitment, as well as generate EUR 350 million in revenue from Ecothermal Grid. In other words, lead heating network transformation across the continent. How? Through our winning formula: unmatched assets, innovative offers, local energy sources, and the unique ability to combine our wastewater and energy business. No competitor can replicate this. The challenges are clear: security of supply, decarbonization, efficiency, flexibility, and affordability. The energy transition is not someday. It is happening now. It is happening here in Poznań.
Thank you very much.
Veolia is powering the new urban energy. Cities account for over 60% of global energy and emit more than 70% of CO2. Half of all energy demand is heat, and 75% is still fossil fueled. Decarbonizing heat isn't a target. It's an essential transformation. Across Europe, momentum is building. Veolia's Ecothermal Grid offer delivers a direct route to carbon-neutral heating by decarbonizing existing networks and creating new ones built for a zero-carbon future. We harness geothermal, biomass, biogas, solar, industrial waste heat, heat pump, and electric boilers, integrating energy storage and smart control for reliability and flexibility. We partner with municipalities, private developers, and district heating operators. From cities or neighborhoods between 15,000-30,000 people to major campuses, airports, and hospitals, each network is designed for resilience, efficiency, and long-term value.
With decades of experience, from coal exits to AI-driven optimization, Veolia leads the transition towards sustainable urban heat. Our ambition becomes action, powering cleaner, smarter, and more sustainable cities.
Thank you so much, Estelle. Now to present the financial structure behind this impressive portfolio, I now invite on stage Emmanuelle Menning, Deputy CEO of Finance and Purchasing at Veolia.
Thank you, Ellie, and good morning, everyone. I will now enter into more detail on our business models. As Estelle has just recalled, energy revenue reached 25% of the group in 2024. These EUR 11 billion split for 70% in urban heating and 30%, a large quarter, in our boosters, energy services, and bioenergy. I am going here to detail our urban heating business model, a key and beautiful stronghold. Starting with the financial indicators of urban heating, I am on slide 20.
85% of our activities is located in Central and Eastern Europe, with five main countries: Poland with EUR 2.9 billion revenues, Germany and Czech Republic with around EUR 1 billion, Slovakia and Hungary with around EUR 0.5 billion turnover. This positioning is the result of our strategy and history. Indeed, our energy business has always been part of Veolia DNA, initially as a complementary offer of our municipalities in France, with a business model very close to our historical municipal water activities, essential services, macro-immune infrastructure-based, which sustain efficiency gains. Our business is centered around heat delivery for 80%, electricity 20% as a byproduct of heat produced through CHP cogeneration. In total, we produce and/or distribute 64 TW of energy. Urban return, it's a profitable business with a 14% EBITDA margin, with a strong predictable free cash flow and a high ROC after-tax of 9% above group average and group WACC.
Now, let's dive into the main characteristics of our business model in urban heating. Our energy business is asset-based. We own the asset, and the heating business is regulated in Central and Eastern Europe. In terms of business model, the district heating is very strong, especially as we are present in the whole value chain: resilient, macro-immune with a fully protected cost base. It is regulated, and we are covered by a pass-through formula with a long-standing capacity to deliver efficiency gain and create value. There are typically three types of business models. First, in 40% of the cases, we only operate the heating network and distribute energy, notably in Warsaw and in Prague, with an EBITDA margin of 11%. Second, in 10% of the cases, we own only production assets, as in Hungary or Slovakia, with an EBITDA margin of 15%.
Third, we operate at the best level of our efficiency when we combine production and distribution in the same location, which is the case in nearly 50% of our turnover, for instance, in Poland, here in Poznań, in Łódź, in the Czech Republic, or in Germany. EBITDA margins are at the highest in this case, around 70%, as we benefit from synergies between activities, combining production and distribution through cogeneration, enhancing our margin with electricity cogeneration and flexibility services, and the benefit of decarbonization. We have been able and will continue to create value in urban heating thanks to key levers. We own our assets and enjoy long-term contracts. Besides, one part is important: we are fully in charge of the CapEx decision and delivery, with no obligation to comply with specific regulatory frameworks. We have a long-standing expertise in managing heat networks, decarbonizing assets, and increasing our EBITDA.
Our customer base is, of course, very stable and is even expanding thanks to high expertise in public tender offer, as our heat offer is providing both security of supply and stability of prices compared to individual options. Contexts have changed in the recent years, providing additional business opportunities with two main factors: the necessity to decarbonize and exit from coal, and the war in Ukraine, which led to an unprecedented energy crisis and volatility in Europe. As energy prices were soaring, prices in Europe remained at a higher level than before the crisis and will remain so. Veolia maintains a robust and multifaceted strategy to effectively manage and mitigate the impact of energy price volatility, ensuring financial resilience and stability. This approach is built upon several key pillars. A significant portion of our contractual agreement incorporates well-defined pass-through mechanisms, mostly for heat energy sales.
Proactive and disciplined hedging strategies protect our margin. Our standard practices involve hedging a substantial portion of our anticipated energy needs, typically covering a strategic horizon up to three years with very skilled local teams. The chart on the right-hand side on the slide illustrates the benefit of this strategy with the steady progression of our energy EBITDA during the 2022-2024 years, when energy prices were highly volatile. I am on slide 24, and this chart is key. It shows that thanks to our unique expertise combined with the decarbonization opportunities, the EBITDA growth between 2021 and 2030 of municipal energy will be sustained and fueled by natural organic growth, CapEx slide, contributing to roughly 25% of the EBITDA growth, new connections, new contracts, network expansion in Europe, pushed by favorable regulations. Another 25% of EBITDA growth will come from continued efficiency gains.
Last but not least, the coal exit will contribute to roughly 50% additional EBITDA gain, with a large part from 2027 onward, and I will come back to it. That is also a stronghold. Municipal energy will continue to deliver in the next five years and onwards a sustained mid-single-digit barrier on average between 2021 and 2030. I will now detail more specifically the first pillar of our EBITDA progression, which is growth. Growth will come from three levels: new connections, additional services thanks to combination and geographic expansion. New connections. It will be fueled by strong regulatory incentives, pushing users to connect decarbonized networks. Efficiency network qualification, key to gain new clients, new buildings connected, as is admitted in the case in Warsaw in the last 10 years. Second, additional services: energy efficiency package, smart metering waste, heat and manage, notably for data centers.
Geographically, we will expand where we will favor asset-like models such as the one in Uzbekistan, which is a case I would like to explain. We signed in 2022 a 30-year O&M contract to manage the district heating network of Tashkent. The assets are not owned by Veolia; we operate them, which enables us to grow with very limited capital employed. We are bringing our unique expertise on the table. Our objective is to significantly reduce leakage, therefore increase asset efficiency and margins. Second pillar of our municipal energy EBITDA growth is performance, where we benefit from a very strong track record efficiency gain. It will come from three factors: increase of our production and distribution asset efficiency through optimization of heat temperature, preventive maintenance, reduction of thermal losses, and other. Digitalization and AI to accurately adjust generation to demand.
An important point, as Estelle mentioned, our strategy is based on a diversified energy mix, which enables us to optimize heat production costs according to the different fuel prices: gas, biomass, RDF, CO2, and therefore increase EBITDA. I am very proud to present to you the latest and biggest pillars of our EBITDA growth, which is coal exit. As you know, we decided six years ago, very early in the process, to decarbonize our energy asset and fully exit from coal in 10 years. This is very ambitious, and as I will explain, also very rewarding for all our stakeholders, our clients, of course, and the population we serve in Poland, in the Czech Republic, in Germany, the planet, as coal exit will help us to save close to 4 million tons of CO2 emissions.
Our shareholders, too, as they will benefit from very rewarding investments with above 10% IRR and eventually own fully renovated coal-free cogeneration assets. We are dedicating EUR 1.6 billion of CapEx and have already invested EUR 0.7 billion. Braunschweig in Germany, Přerov and Kolín in the Czech Republic, Poznań in Poland are decarbonized, and you will visit it in a few moments. I would like finally to stress the fact that our coal exit plan until 2030 does not rely only on gas, but much further relies on a multi-fuel approach, including a large part of decarbonized energy, waste wood, biomass, heat pump, waste heat recovery, geothermal. How are we creating value through coal exit, and how much? As I have just mentioned, we will deploy EUR 1.6 billion in strategic investment between 2019 and 2030.
This CapEx will generate more than EUR 250 million in additional EBITDA with a back-and-loaded profile, with all projects generating IRR above 10%. Our decarbonizing strategy creates value through both immediate operational improvements and long-term strategic positioning. Our IRR generation above 10% relies on the following levers. First, cost reduction with less CO2 certificate purchase and cheaper alternative fuel. Second, additional revenue thanks to increased electricity volumes with higher electricity conversion and efficiency of our new asset. Regulatory incentives generating long-term secure additional revenues. The regulatory framework in the country where we are implemented provides secured long-term value through additional revenue streams and green energy premiums. Fourth, reduced fiscal costs thanks to gas-fired assets requiring less intensive handling and maintenance compared to traditional coal infrastructure, resulting also in cost reductions. Beyond this excellent IRR, this investment resulted from a long-term strategic vision with additional value.
With this investment, we are also improving the patrimonial value of our asset base, increasing our economic resilience with a multi-fuel approach, and investing into flexible assets which perfectly fit the new energy market, requiring flexibility. The heat distributed is now classified as renewable heat, which increases connection rates to our networks. You can see on the slide three illustrations of the mechanism I have just described. First level, coal exit will enhance our heat spreads. For example, in Přerov, we reduced fuel costs to zero with RDF source for free or even negative prices, not mentioning the very strong decrease in CO2 certificate purchase. Second level of value creation is higher electricity revenue. For example, in Poznań facility, we increased electricity production by around 70%. Another one is provided by regulatory frameworks, which are enlightening us with green premiums.
For instance, in Germany, we benefit from cogeneration premiums secured up to EUR 40 per megawatt-hour over a 10-year period, which provides predictable cash flows, hence secure investment returns. While in Poznań, the capacity market contract guarantees 17 years of revenues. Finally, coal exit is enabling lower fixed costs as we are saving, for instance, coal handling and storage costs. Indeed, municipal energy, it's a winning business model. Very strong, resilient, macro-immune, with a cost base fully protected. It is very close to Veolia's capacity to address municipalities' needs in a regulated context, and Veolia has the unique profile to extract value thanks to its long-proven operational excellence, our decarbonization capability, and our capacity to seize new growth opportunities. Growth will come from new connections, new contracts, network expansion in Europe, pushed by favorable regulation.
Performance suites continue thanks to our long-standing expertise on network management, efficiency, fuel mix optimization, flexibility, and digitalization. Finally, decarbonization will provide more than EUR 250 million of additional EBITDA with double-digit IRR. We have the right people, the operational skills, and the long-standing execution track record, which give full visibility on our 2027 target and beyond. This is the beauty of the stronghold.
Thank you. Thank you so much, Emmanuelle, for this very clear presentation. We now offer to give you a closer look at the operational reality and the technical choices that are shaping district heating networks in the region. I'm going to ask to join me on stage Pavel Micka, Head of Transformation and Performance for Central and Eastern Europe at Veolia. Welcome, Pavel.
To begin, perhaps you could outline for us the regional landscape that you're working with and the main drivers that are shaping the evolution of these heating networks.
Good morning, everyone. In order to answer the nice question, in Central and Eastern Europe, Veolia operates large district heating networks in such key cities like Warsaw, Prague, Bratislava, or Tashkent in Central Asia. However, in the region, we operate in total almost 400 heating networks, which means that in the region, we operate as well medium and small-sized networks, like, for example, here in Poland, almost 60 cities like that.
In summary, we provide the heat for 5.7 million inhabitants, and we provide the heat as well for almost 800 industrial sites, which means that we are a major heat provider in Central and Eastern Europe, and in countries like Poland, Czech Republic, and Hungary, we are ranked in top three heat suppliers. What is our strength? On the next slide, you can see that our strength is based on four pillars. For the first, we are a leader in decarbonization, which means that our solutions, as already presented by Emmanuelle and Estelle, are efficient and sustainable. Moreover, we apply always the approach of circular economy, which means we put into the balance economy, environmental aspects, and social aspects, and we are always enriching our solutions by local resources and renewables. For example, geothermal, either shallow or deep, waste heat, particularly from industry or data centers.
We are installing more and more heat pumps, which are not more the heat pumps of small size. It is very powerful devices of even power for more than 10 MW. As already said, we have as well a large experience in biomass. Second pillar. In the second pillar, we are focused on autonomy and security, and we are boosting that solution by installing more and more storage devices like heat accumulators or battery storage. As I said, we continuously improve our efficiency for both our operations and our customers. Moreover, by installing such devices like gas turbines, e-boilers, by aggregating small sources into a virtual power plant, we are not only improving our efficiency, but we are able as well to provide flexibility and ancillary services to national grid. Last but not least, digitalization.
We are transforming our business by digitalization, and thanks to our experience, we are able as well to provide our customers with that services, particularly for cybersecurity, which is one of our priorities, of course. The strength in Central and Eastern Europe is based on those four pillars. Now, if we turn to Poznań more specifically, what would you say makes the city a significant example of the transition that is underway, and what elements of the project best illustrate this, in your opinion? Okay, Poznań, it's an amazing example. Thanks to Polish colleagues, we performed that showcase of the decarbonization journey from coal through gas for a transient period to renewables, finally.
The main driver of our evolution in Poznań is the reduction of CO2 emissions, the path you can see on the picture on the right side, which is based on the change of fuel mixture in the future. Just to tell you some details about the Veolia approach. For the first, we take into account the legal framework. We are preparing our local environmental consensus solutions, and then we perform the asset transformation. We are applying properly the asset management, which means by optimizing costs, we are minimizing the risk and as well optimizing the performance, and we are applicating large scale of innovations. Here in Poznań, we've applicated 13 innovative solutions in order to improve heat and electricity production, energy efficiency, and digitalization. Of course, as already Emmanuelle mentioned, we take care into the stability and sustainability.
A 17-year contract for the capacity market has been already mentioned. Last but not least, regarding investment of optimizing of investment, we are profiting from each possible funding, either in Europe or specifically locally in Poland. This is the showcase of our decarbonization journey. Just to precise, when the Ecothermal Grid offer is presented now, for example, with the pilot of Görlitz-Zgorzelec, it is for medium and small-sized cities where, taking into account the best available technologies, we are able to perform 100% renewables very soon. On the other hand, for these large district heating networks and big CHP central heating pumps, sorry for that, we decarbonize step by step, and the journey is planned like that.
We can hear how convinced you are by this journey. You have spoken about many levers to make this system more efficient.
I'd like to know if it changes the way the networks are operated. You also spoke about the combination of water and waste. What does this mean for the cities?
Not only a combination of energy or waste, but we have the unique opportunity. What could be seen on the next slide, please? Thank you. We have the unique opportunity to combine those three activities: waste, energy, and water. An example of waste-for-energy combination, there is the Přerov Heating Plant where we use that RDF fuel, which is provided by our waste division. In Veolia, we always prefer to share the experience and to duplicate the projects, which means this project will be replicated soon in Karviná. Regarding the combination with water, which means energy for water or water for energy, we are using the residual heat from ice, drinking water, or sewage water for heating of buildings.
When we operate the wastewater treatment plants, we are able to produce biomass, and by burning of biomass in cogeneration unit, we are providing heat and electricity. The flagship of that solution is our Kubratovo installation in Sofia, where we've achieved 100% self-sufficiency in production of energy. Once again, duplication, already mentioned Budapest, but as well Bucharest, Prague as well, where we even upgrade the biogas production by conversion to biomethane. Last but not least, when we supply energy to the water business, for example, in Prague, we are able to manage perfectly the usage of electricity for pumping of water, which means if there is low need of electricity, sometimes even price is negative, we could make the pumping and vice versa. This is regarding synergies. Last but not least, already Estelle and Emmanuelle have been speaking about strong potential for growth.
Just to tell you that we are focusing on organic growth. The figure from Poznań, where since 2015, we've performed the expansion of about 27%, is one of the examples. When we are presenting in a city, it's always the case like that. We are as well extending the networks, but a non-traditional way. The very nice example is the using of geothermal energy. For example, in Bucharest, today, we perform several projects where we are using geothermal energy, which means transforming shallow geothermal energy by heat pumps, which makes finally the significant reduction of CO2, but as well optimization of cost, and this is the sustainable solution. In conclusion, if I may, in fact, we are performing our decarbonization journey. We are profiting from a unique opportunity to make the synergies between business lines.
We are expanding our network, and by that way, we are achieving our actual targets, but as well, we will deliver the growth as expected and requested, not only in Central Europe, but particularly Central Asia, and as well in other zones, because we like duplication in Veolia, according to the strategy which is defined by headquarters. Thank you very much for your attention.
Thank you so much, Pavel. I'll let you take a seat next to Estelle and Emmanuelle. Let's just give him a round of applause for this presentation, please. We are now going to discuss the partnership between the city of Poznań and Veolia. We'll discuss how this has been instrumental to the coal exit pathway and how that has created new opportunities for the wider energy transition. Now, to address this, I am going to welcome on stage Jacek Jaśkowiak.
I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Mayor of Poznań, please come on stage. Philippe Guitard , Head of Central and Eastern Europe Zone at Veolia, and Jakub Patalas, CEO of Veolia Energy Poznań. My first question will be for you, Philippe . This morning, we have spoken a lot about heat, about the importance of decarbonization. Can you tell us what makes Veolia different in its approach to energy in the zone?
What makes Veolia different is, first of all, to have with us the Mayor of Poznań. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, to be in a building, a new building of the city, which is heated by Veolia. Minus two outside, and today we have 22 inside. Thank you, Mr. Mayor, because without you, we will be very cold. What's bringing Veolia? You had the presentation of Estelle, Emmanuelle, Pavel.
Very simply, first of all, the partnership without the Mayor, without the local authorities, the national authorities, Veolia will not be able to apply is our no. That's the base that the history of Veolia to be a local partner for win-win. We have also in Central Europe and in Veolia advantages that the others don't have. The first one is a global approach. We produce, we distribute, we invoice, we have clients, we have performance, we have the total value chain that no one can compete with. The other exception which makes Veolia unique is we are walking with three legs: the water, the waste, and the energy. On these three historical activities, one is a common point: the energy. We produce with water, energy. We produce with waste, energy.
This combination is making for the city, for the final client, and for Veolia, a winning combination. Winning combination, which is reinforced by the innovation, 13 innovations in Poznań, but on all the global scale of the group, we can say hundreds of innovations. We have innovation every month, every day on the principle of copy and adapt. We have also some unique expertise. We talk about artificial intelligence. Poland, the network in Poznań, in Łódź, in Warsaw is today with an artificial intelligence pilot making 3%, 4%, 5% higher efficiency. In Germany, in Hungary, we have a unique biomass expertise. RDF is already applied. The others are talking about it. We are doing it. That is why with all this specific combination and with our association with the local authority, Mr.
Mayor, we try to fulfill your promise to make Poznań as an example, not only in Poland, but in the rest of the Veolia activity.
Thank you so much, Philippe . Mr. Mayor, I'd like to continue on this train of thought and ask you a very direct question. Why did you choose to invest in decarbonization? Was it because of regulation, or was it a personal vision? Tell us more.
Innovation, it is not only semiconductors. Innovation could be also the investment like this. I am from business. Before being elected, I was very active in business, and I am not afraid of cooperation. We did a lot together. Thank you, Veolia, because to have such a partner, we can do a lot. Decarbonization is very important. We see climate changes and all the things. It is necessary to invest.
First, to be innovative, I'm very happy to have strategic partners like Veolia. Veolia did a lot. If you see these numbers, comparing to the event of Zgorzelec or to the Czech Republic, it is 820. It is the biggest amount. If you see the investments in Germany, in the Czech Republic, in Hungary, in Poland, Poland is last time quite successful because we cooperate with such partners like Veolia. Innovation, it is not only semiconductors like Taiwan. It is not only such things like in the U.S., Google or Facebook. It is also such business. For me, it is very important to show Poznań as also a very innovative city. In business, it is very important to be the best, but it is also sometimes very important to be the first.
It is a big chance for Poznań, such cooperation, because we could be the first with such big decarbonization. For Veolia, it is also the chance because if we are successful as Poznań in this area, then the different cities in Europe and maybe not only in Europe will follow us. I like to be the first.
Very clear answer. Thank you so much for that candid answer. Why did you choose Veolia?
Telling the truth, it was chosen before, and I saw the result. In business, numbers are very important, and we could see the numbers. Also to follow the numbers in the past, the reduction of coal consumption and so on. It is clear.
If I see such professionalism, it is very easy to do more, to discuss some things, what could we do in next years, how could we together change Poznań. Nowadays, it is also the matter of security. Three years ago, after the aggression of the Russian Federation on Ukraine, the challenge to heat all the apartments, all the homes, all the offices, it was not easy. I remember all discussions. Is Poznań safe or not? When I was invited and very big amounts of coal were there, and so I was told we are safe. It is also important, not only to be the first, but also to be safe.
Thank you so much. I'd like to turn now to you, Jakub. As we have been hearing, this coal exit in Poznań is a joint effort between the city and Veolia.
Can you tell us more about how important the city's implication is and has been to successfully achieve this transition?
Thank you. Before I jump to those answers, let me tell you where we are, just because we are in a good example of transition. This building has been an old brewery that has been changed into a shopping mall. I think Poznań citizens love that place, and so do I. I am pretty proud that we can, as Philippe said, supply it with the heat deliveries. Answering your question, the role of the city and its officials was always crucial for the entire project and at every other stage until it was a success.
We received tremendous support from city officials, especially during the permitting phase when we were acquiring building permit zone locations, and after all, at the end of the project when we were applying for occupancy permit. Although all these processes are lengthy and complex, they have been successfully accomplished without any delays. It also is worth mentioning that we have been also supported after the project has been accomplished, just because we have changed coal to gas. We also changed the heat tariffs, and not everybody has been, let's say, happy about that tariffs have been increased. The city council members and Vice Mayor stepped in with the idea to organize a meeting where we had a chance to discuss with the housing cooperative representatives about what was the reason why these heating prices have changed. They approved our explanations. In the end, it was very successful.
I would like to also emphasize that our partnership with the city resulted in also consistent communication and clear approval of our plans and actions in the end.
On the other end, how would you say that Veolia's unique positioning and its wide portfolio of solutions has been essential to support the city?
Veolia in Poznań is not only the district heating supplier for over 60% of residential buildings within the city range, guaranteeing the security and continuity of those supplies. We are also a key provider for building energy services for over 140 municipal buildings, when on one hand, we are enabling energy savings, but on the other hand, we are maintaining the heat comfort inside those buildings. It is also, I think so, that we became for these 20 years of our cooperation kind of a first choice partner due to our innovation and the worldwide experience.
Last but not least, it's also worth mentioning that we, Veolia, together with the city, are conducting the One Degree Less is More campaign that is showing the local community how important it is to save resources.
Thank you, Jakub. My final question will be for you, Philippe. What are the next steps to continue revolutionizing the energy in the zone?
Revolution and future. I think we can use Poznań as an example. The decarbonization, as was presented, is an opportunity, not a constraint. We can use innovation. We can use new technology. We can use the diversity of solutions of Veolia to create the future. All that you have seen this morning, you have the solution for all the problems. I want to insist on that, what no one has.
We have in Central Europe, with this expertise, a unique portfolio with a unique workforce. Forty thousand people are working in 14 different countries. Fifteen of them are working in the energy. Why do you think in 2022 that Veolia was chosen in Uzbekistan? Because we have been the only one to deliver what the other one dreamed to do. We have the resources. We have, as I said, still the ambition, and we have also the proudness, proudness to do what we say and to say what we do. The experience of energy, the capacity of Veolia to demonstrate we can do more with less, the gestion of the complexity with the support of the partnership, it's more than a future. Geographically, we have a lot of ambition in Central Asia, in South of Europe, but we are also an industrial world, a unique position.
I'm sure that you don't know that we are managing in Hungary or in the Czech Republic more than 50% of the energy hospital with efficiency, with resilience, and with professionalism. As I like to say, it's better to see one than to listen to the times. Let's visit the gas station of Poznań, and you will see already a part of the future.
Thank you so much, Philippe. To end this roundtable on a visual representation, please have a look at this video on new urban energy. Thank you, gentlemen.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Mayor.
[Foreign language]. I n the city of Poznań, there are 500,000 people, and there are 1 million citizens living in the metropolitan area. Locally, we have a problem with air pollution, mostly because of the usage of coal in the apartments for heating. That's why extending the district heating network to the households of the citizens of Poznań is very important for us. The main thing of the whole system is a heat exchanger. During the melting process, a lot of waste heat gets into the atmosphere. This heat exchanger heats water, and then the system of pumps and steerings pumps the water into the system of the city.
Heat goes to the municipal grid and heats 6,500 flats, hospitals, commercial buildings, and schools. [Foreign language]. It's a great example of how industry can support the city and its citizens. These projects are our one stone in a big mountain that we are doing. [Foreign language] .
Now, before we turn to you to take your questions, I would like to invite you, Estelle, to please come back, center stage, to give your key takeaways.
We've shown you this morning what's possible. The technology does work.
The project does deliver returns, and the transformation is happening. Here is the reality. To scale this across Europe, to move from dozens of cities to hundreds of cities, European authorities need to act. They need to act now. Let me be very clear about what needs to happen to get there. First, prioritize local energy. This is waste heat from data centers, metros, industry, geothermal, biomass. Those resources exist. They constitute a potential 400 GW of untapped resources. Make them a priority. Second, accelerate permits. Permits take years. We need months. Fast-track renewable heating projects. Third, scale geothermal guarantee funds. Hungary and France proved it works. Replicate it across Europe. Remove the risk. Unlock the resource. Fourth, deliver regulatory stability. Investment needs visibility. Implement existing laws and stop changing the rules. Local energy, fast permits, geothermal guarantees, regulatory stability.
These four priorities will unlock carbon-neutral heating across Europe. Veolia is ready. The cities are ready. The technology is ready. Now we need the policy framework to match this ambition. Thank you very much.
Thank you so much, Estelle. Let's open to your questions. Please raise your hand, and we'll bring a microphone over to you. Do not hesitate. We are at your disposal. Yes, we have a question right here. Can we bring a microphone over there? We're listening.
Can you hear me?
Yes, we can hear you. Can you present yourself and ask your question, please?
Bartłomiej Kubicki , Bernstein . Two questions, if I may, on heating and power generation. First of all, if we think about Poland per se, there's plenty of coal-fired power plants here, heat plants here.
I just wonder if in your minds, you are thinking about maybe expanding a little bit beyond the assets you have, getting new assets, and then transferring your expertise to decarbonize other assets, which I guess are predominantly owned by municipalities. That will be question number one. Question number two, if we think beyond the decarbonization, so let's say 2030 or when you finish the projects, if you can tell us what are the growth drivers of ROC and EBITDA beyond decarbonization, so after you decarbonize the plants, and then whether they meet your criteria or definition of being mature assets, and I'm referring here to your Friday's presentation. Thank you very much.
I may start, and maybe Emmanuelle, you want to complement. On Poland, I guess, you know, we launched this morning the Ecothermal Grid. That's partially the answer to your question.
The idea is not it's to be an asset-light offer to be able to help cities, even if they were in-house, like you have many in Poland, but elsewhere as well, to help them with decarbonization, with making more efficient, and so on and so forth, not having to necessarily buy the asset of them if they were just to want to maintain the ownership as it is today. That is a good example of what we have in mind in the next few years. The rest will seize the opportunities as they arise, but that is the global picture. In terms of beyond, is your question, you know, do we intend to sell our assets in Poland? The answer is no. You know, I'm trying to refer to the Friday last bit of your question. You've understood that not only it delivers good return, but there is good growth.
It's growing in terms of profits. Just to elaborate a little bit on what I called about mature asset on Friday, you know, it's really something which the profit in a way or the return would not grow in the next few years. As you've seen this morning, we have lots of things up to 2030 and even beyond, because beyond that, I think, you know, the example of Tashkent was mentioned, and I know that Philippe, and same applies to the Asian colleague of Philippe, lots of new dots on the map beyond 2030, I can tell you. Emmanuel.
Maybe on your first question, Poland. As you may know, we love Poland. It's one of our top five countries, and we have an amazing team, amazing track record, and a track record of figures and delivery of projects which have been stellar.
We'll continue to grow, that's for sure. As I mentioned, it will come from new connection. We had new connection in the past. It was the case, for instance, in Warsaw. Yearly growth was, if I'm not mistaken, 1.5% per year over the last 10 years. That will be one thing, and urban will continue to expand. We will work on efficiency networks that will also help us because our network now, when we take the definition of EU, is defined as efficiency network, meaning that we have incentive for connection. We'll continue to sell our additional services, and the team for that is amazing. That's a strong combination with our boosters. It can be energy efficiency package. All that we will continue to deliver. We'll have smart metering, waste heat management. The third element is, of course, we want to expand.
It will be majorly CapEx-light, and it has to be fully in line with our what we call financial criteria. If we have one amazing opportunity, we need a bit of CapEx. Of course, we will consider it. Coming to your second question, what happens after 2030? You are quite early, Bartek, if I may. What I can say is what we explained with Estelle and the team today is that first, growth will come also from decarbonization. What you have in mind is with all the decarbonization we do, part of the EBITDA growth will come after 2030. That is a really important point. After that, we will continue to grow thanks to efficiency, geographical development. We have a very clear vision of what we want to do.
Thank you so much for this question and these answers. Do we have any other questions in the room?
I hope I can see. We have quite a few questions here. Perhaps you can bring a microphone here first, and then we will get to you.
Thank you. Arnaud Palliez , CIC. I would like to have more details about geographical expansion regarding, of course, the track record and the innovation accumulated in Central and Eastern Europe. Can you develop the business in other regions? The eligible market you mentioned with 400 GW of wasted heat, is this on a global scale or is this what is really your eligible market?
Geographical expansion, you know, you have district heating and urban heating, which we have discussed this morning, but we have other types of activities in the energy business, which I referred to earlier on in the day, you know, such as bioenergy, energy efficiency, just to mention two ones, which are boosting our activity, as you know.
If you take the overall new urban energy, which is what Veolia does, we have a worldwide ambition to develop this business, you know, with some specificity on choosing our battles, like we do in waste and in water in the same way. What are those criteria, in a way? First is, you know, of course, it's where the demand is and for a very long time. By the way, we don't want to be dependent on subsidies. As you know, it was proven to be quite a successful choice, if I may, with all the ups and downs of various governmental help. We don't want to be depending on subsidies. Basically, that gives you a full demand for our service in various parts of the world. The second one is I don't want to disperse our means.
You've seen the top three strategies in the GreenUp plan. When we are in a country, we want to be very good at this specific activity in this specific country. It goes with what Philippe said about being embedded, having a super professional team who can deliver on their promises and so on and so forth. If you mix all that, that type of criteria, you will end up having, yes, district heating not only in Central and Eastern Europe, which goes from Germany all the way east, Central Asia and Asia altogether. In terms of coal, we've developed a first new worldwide first, for instance, in Barcelona that we've launched a few months ago. You can imagine that in the Middle East, we will be more talking about coal rather than heat.
If you move to, for instance, energy efficiency and all the rest, we are doing already a lot of that in South America, in the Middle East again. It depends on which pieces of the jigsaw, but each time we want to be in the top three of this specific market at Veolia in this specific country. The ambition is really worldwide, but not by dispersing our means, you know, because we have potential pretty much in lots of different places. 400 GW , it is our estimate on European scale. We could do the same estimate in other parts of the world, but we wanted to make it very, very, you know, like easy to capture because 400 GW at European scale is equivalent to the overall consumption of Italy on everything, just to give you an idea. It is massive.
It's a third of what the EU does import in fossil fuel that you can replace by, again, biogas, biomass, waste heat, non-recyclable waste, and so on and so forth. Local sources. The idea was to try to capture. Is it worth it in a way or is it, will it stay super small? The answer is it could be a big game changer in the energy mix. You know, we could do exactly the same as in other continents.
Thank you so much, Estelle.
Hello, this is Luis Florio at La Vanguardia. I have a couple of questions. First of all, your goal is to be number one in heat solutions in Europe by 2030. I want to know where do you stand now? Are you in second place, in third place? I mean, what's your market share?
The other question would be more or less you have already answered it, but how does this heat push fit with countries like Spain in which you have an important footprint, but at the same time, maybe they are not solutions that much needed? Thank you.
On the first one, we are number two today in urban heating in Europe, close to the number one in terms of market share and pushing, you have understood, to get to the number one status. In terms of market share, it is roughly 10%. I think it is nine and a half if you count by number of inhabitants which are connected to a Veolia district heating network as opposed to other competitors. Having in mind that, you know, the number one is probably a little bit both, but the vast majority of the market share is run directly by cities.
What's run by specialized companies like Veolia is basically, you know, just 25% of the overall market. The 75% is actually run by cities. In a way, that's why we talked about privatization of cities who are looking for efficiency, innovation, and decarbonization, which is exactly what we do. You know, you have a market which is expanding as well in that spectrum. In terms of Spain, Spain, we already are very present in energy. Number two, I gather, in energy efficiency in Spain. Plus, we've invested in the last one year, you know, which is one of our boosters of activity. Coming back to the question we had earlier on, we've invested in half a dozen of token acquisitions this year alone in Spain.
It is mainly, I would say, industrial energy efficiency and energy supply and heat supply, if you want, that we have developed in Spain. From industrial coal to industrial heat and everything which looks like that. With regards to urban heating, as what you see in Poznań, you would understand that it is a little bit less relevant given the weather is slightly different, right? As we said, heat is not only to warm your homes, it is as well, you know, needed for industrial processes, and that is exactly where we focus our attention in Spain.
Thank you so much, Estelle. We have a question here.
Thanks very much for the presentation. A few questions from me. I am sorry, I am Olly Jeffery from Deutsche Bank. The first question is just a clarification.
All of the business growth outside of the coal program, is that CapEx-light or is it just the geographical expansion part that's CapEx-light, thinking of the new connections in the Ecothermal Grid? The second question is on the organic growth out to 2030, particularly with regard to the waste heat service you might be able to provide to data centers. Do you see upside potential to that or is that really too nascent to see that as potential upside over the medium term versus your expectations? The last one is just on the coal program. You have 250 million EBITDA at full run rate. You have already got a couple of plants up and running. How much is that delivering today? Thank you.
Okay, I am going to start with Emmanuelle. Apart from coal, all the others' expansion, are they CapEx-heavy or CapEx-light, Emmanuelle?
Yeah.
As Estelle mentioned, we want to concentrate our means, meaning that today the main CapEx we invest and we want to invest is on the decarbonization, which is very profitable with excellent people, amazing track record, and ERR above 10%. Then we have all the maintenance that we want to continue and that we do and that we will continue to do. We want to have plants which are solid, which are delivering the essential services for our people. In terms of additional expansion, the priority is given on CapEx-light. If we have an amazing project coming fitting our criteria, we'll take the liberty to look at it.
It is CapEx-light mainly apart from the coal transition. Organic growth and data centers.
Data center, we see a potential for growing the business of Veolia in different ways, basically to launch a sustainable data center offer, just to put it in simple terms, because waste heat recube is a big potential and we already are developing projects like that one. Like we have, we will see one in amazing Poznań, but as you can imagine, it is not only in Poland, it is pretty much across the globe. The other one is water because you need water to cool down data centers as well. And you know, we are a worldwide specialist of water technology.
We develop a way to kind of recycle water if you want to avoid having to fight for water between a town, farmers, and data centers, which by the way, we already see in the U.S., just to give you an idea of how crazy at times, you know, the world can sound. The third one is more the hazardous waste element of data centers because, you know, you have a lot of electrical, electronical equipment within a data center, which are hazardous waste material. That is why, you know, like ours was present. Again, we are number one worldwide in hazardous waste and soon number two in the U.S., you know, will be helping. It is a comprehensive sustainable data center offer which we are launching and having some already early success. Can you project a big number? We will see that through.
First things first, we are really launching this offer and it's proven to be quite successful already. In terms of coal program, of the EUR 250 million, which I think on the slide you said was back-end loaded, Emmanuelle, but back-end loaded, is there already a little bit of it in our numbers today?
Yes, absolutely. Fair question. On the EUR 250 million of EBITDA that we will generate, we had EUR 50 million, which were before the start of GreenUp, mainly coming from Braunschweig. During the plan, we have roughly EUR 50 million coming from Poznań and a part of Přerov and Kolin. All the remaining part will arrive after 2027. I think it makes the link with the question of Bartek.
Thank you so much. Now, if you'll allow, I'm going to close the in-person portion of this Q&A.
I'd like to remind you that we're having lunch together so we can continue the discussion later on. I'll just take a few questions from our online participants. Here is a question from Emira Sagaama from ODDO BHF. Do you have any ambition to replicate this expertise in China as your coal exit target only applies to Europe?
We already are very present in China in the district heating, our urban heating business in various cities. It is Harbin, it is Yanxi, and Changchun. Thank you. I'm slightly confused with the name of cities we operate in, which are so numerous. We already are very present in China. As we said, already present in Asia altogether. We are present in Hong Kong and Central Asia as well. In terms of the decarbonization agenda, we already are doing a lot.
If I remember well, in China, we've reduced by 30% the carbon intensity in our network. As far as coal exit is concerned, the question is with what can you replace it with? We do already a lot of biomass and stuff, but there is not enough alternative to replace coal so far. It will happen one day probably. We're working with the Chinese authority to see how we can, how we could, you know, implement that. You have to realize that in the cities I mentioned, it's minus 30 degrees in the winter and you don't have any wood, you don't have enough waste in the city to provide with the entirety of the replacement of coal.
Very proud already with what has been achieved, which is a minus 30% carbon intensity in those networks and replacing progressively with biomass.
Thank you, Estelle. For timing constraints reasons, sorry, I am going to end with this final question coming from our participants online. Question from Arthur Sitbon for Morgan Stanley. What will the timing profile be for the EUR 0.9 billion remaining coal exit CapEx? Will they peak in a given year or will they be more evenly distributed to 2030? He also has the same question for your EBITDA trajectory in energy. When will most of the EUR 250 million EBITDA uplift materialize?
I think on the second one you already answered, Emmanuelle, but on the spending of the CapEx maybe?
Yes, on the spending of the CapEx, thanks to the amazing team that we have, we are succeeding to have a schedule of CapEx which is evenly split over the years. We will have two years with a higher peak, which are 2027 and 2028. I guess on the timing of the project like the one we've seen, we will see early this afternoon. I don't know, Pavel, how long does it take to get a project like the one we'll see up and running? What, three years of preparation and detailed design and something like that?
It's a little bit longer. Nevertheless, thanks to say that we are cooperating very well with headquarters, with financial department in order to make the planning and not to focus something on one year. We've already begun.
You've seen that we are somehow in the middle of our journey, already a lot of projects finished, which give us the chance to continue step by step and in such a, let's say, cooperation on CapEx delivery continuously or CapEx request. Only if you permit me, maybe small technical remark regarding Poland, because of course we are decarbonizing our assets, but for example, by installing of gas turbines, and we've been talking a lot about flexibility and actually reservices. Here in Poznań, today, we've commissioned already two gas turbines. We will do the same or more or less for Łódź with three units. By providing of those services, we enable to the grid to connect even more renewables out of our scope.
Veolia is here to help the country, the zone in order to implement the decarbonization journey even out of our assets, which we either own or operate.
Direct impact and indirect impact as well.
If I may say one word, because Pavel is a bit humble, when I'm looking at the project that you are delivering with the team for us with Estelle, it is high flying or it's haute couture, because you have 300 people on site at the same time, you are able to continue to deliver it and to build the facility. Also, you are always finding the most fitting technological solution, which is amazing.
I'm not only humble, but my teams or our teams here are humble.
With zero accidents.
With zero accidents, says Philippe. That seems like an excellent way to close this Q&A. Thank you so much for your questions.
Thank you for your answers. This brings this plenary to a close. To our remote audience, thank you for joining us. We look forward to seeing you again for a future Thema trip. Goodbye.