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Earnings Call: Q2 2022

Jul 27, 2022

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. On behalf of BASF, I would like to welcome you to our conference call on the Q2 2022 results. Throughout today's recorded presentation, all participants will be in a listen-only mode. The presentation will be followed by a question-and-answer session. If any participant has difficulty hearing the conference, please press the star key followed by zero on your telephone for operator assistance. This presentation contains forward-looking statements. These statements are based on current estimates and projections of the Board of Executive Directors and currently available information. Forward-looking statements are not guarantees of the future developments and results outlined therein. These are dependent on a number of factors. They involve various risks and uncertainties, and they are based on assumptions that may not prove to be accurate. Such risk factors include those discussed in Opportunities and Risks of the BASF Report 2021.

BASF does not assume any obligation to update the forward-looking statements contained in this presentation above and beyond the legal requirements. On the call with me today are Martin Brudermüller, Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, and Hans Engel, Chief Financial Officer. Please be aware that we have already posted the speech on our website at basf.com/Q2_ 2022. Now, I would like to hand over to Martin Brudermüller.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. On July 11, BASF released preliminary figures for the Q2 of 2022. Today, Hans Engel and I will provide you with further details regarding our business development. In the Q2 , BASF again delivered strong earnings despite continued high raw material costs and energy prices. To put the BASF team's performance into perspective, let's begin with a snapshot of the current macroeconomic environment. Compared to quarter one, 2022, the uncertainty and intransparency regarding the short and midterm economic development have increased. The main reasons for this are the ongoing war in Ukraine, the risk associated with natural gas supplies in Europe, and the resulting high prices for raw materials and energy, as well as China's Zero-COVID strategy and related lockdowns. Despite these challenges, the demand from our customer industries remained generally solid.

Global automotive industry and production in the Q2 of 2022 declined by 6% compared with Q1 2022. For 2022, IHS Markit has adjusted its forecast to about 80.8 million units. This is a reduction of around 2.1 million units compared with the forecast of the beginning of this year. In the Q2 of 2022, China's economic growth was negatively impacted by the severe lockdowns in several large cities, particularly in Shanghai. In the second half of 2022, China's economic development is expected to improve, mainly due to a more differentiated strategy to tackle the coronavirus and dedicated financial stimulus measures by the Chinese government, particularly for the automotive industry. To counter high inflation, central banks have started to raise interest rates.

This will increasingly impact demand in the coming months and reduce growth in 2023. Let's now briefly look at chemical production by region in Q2 2022, before we turn to the financial performance of BASF. According to the currently available data, global chemical production increased by just 1.3%. Despite a strong comparison base and the pandemic-related lockdowns, chemical production in China increased by 3.1%. With 2.5%, chemical production also grew in North America. By contrast, chemical production declined by 2.6% in Europe and by 0.6% in Asia, excluding China. I will now move on to the BASF business development in Q2 2022. Our upstream and downstream businesses successfully implemented further price increases and largely passed on higher prices for raw materials and energy.

Due to the lockdowns in China, BASF sales volumes in the country declined by 17.4% in the Q2 of 2022, compared with an increase of 10.4% in Q2 2021. This change was driven by significantly lower sales volumes in April. Sequentially, however, sales volume recovered again strongly in May and June. In Q2 2022, EBIT before special items was at the level of the very strong prior year quarter and amounted to EUR 2.3 billion. The high earnings were driven by the Agricultural Solutions, Nutrition & Care, and Industrial Solutions segments. Other also contributed to the positive performance in Q2 2022. I would like to add that the positive business development in the Q2 of 2022 continued in July.

Since we are often asked about this, I would like to stress once again, currently, all of BASF's European sites are supplied with natural gas in line with demand. We are monitoring developments very closely, in particular at our larger site in Ludwigshafen, where we use considerable amounts of gas. In this context, I will therefore briefly address the details of the alert level regarding gas supply declared by the German government on June 23, 2022. The second stage of the emergency plan for gas comprises four key measures and leave responsibilities and market mechanisms intact. First, all market participants, such as gas suppliers, gas traders, or network operators, are obliged to take coordinated action to avoid temporary or regional gaps in supply in Germany and to achieve the target fill level of 85% for German gas storage facilities on October 1.

To this end, the market area manager of Trading Hub Europe has received an additional credit line of EUR 15 billion from the federal government to purchase gas. Second, market participants, including BASF, are obliged to participate in a crisis team that must report to the Federal Ministry of Economic Affairs on a daily basis. Third, the German government is taking legal measures to restart coal-fired power plants in Germany to contribute to electricity production and save gas in power production. Fourth, Germany's Federal Network Agency wants to open a market platform where gas that is not required by companies can be auctioned. In the following, I also want to comment on the third and final emergency stage of the emergency plan for gas.

This stage comes into force when there is an unexceptionally high demand for natural gas, a significant disruption in natural gas supplies, or other significant deterioration in the supply situation. According to the regulations, non-market-based measures must be taken to ensure natural gas supplies, in particular, to protect its customers. According to the Ministry of Economic Affairs, the Federal Network Agency will become the federal load dispatcher and will regulate the distribution of natural gas in coordination with the network operators. In this process, certain consumer groups are particularly protected. These groups include households, social institutions, such as hospitals and gas-fired power plants that also supply heat to households. They also include industrial companies that manufacture products that are crucial for society. In this case, gas is allocated according to the relevance of the company to society.

We are coordinating closely with the government agency, suppliers, and network operators. Should the German government declare the third and final emergency stage, we currently expect that BASF would still receive sufficient natural gas to maintain operations at the Ludwigshafen site at reduced load. We are also confident with regard to Schwarzheide, our second largest site in Germany. Here, for example, we are able to generate 100% of our power and steam demand using fuel oil. For BASF production sites outside of Europe, we expect hardly any impact in the event of a European gas shortage. I will now provide you with further details regarding our natural gas demand in Europe and give an update on our mitigation measures in the event of natural gas supply shortages. In 2021, BASF's natural gas demand in Europe amounted to 48 terawatt-hours. Thereof, 37 terawatt-hours were consumed in Ludwigshafen.

In Europe, we use around 60% of our natural gas demand to produce power and steam. The remaining 40% is used as feedstock. At our Verbund site in Ludwigshafen, the split is around 50% for each of the two categories. If the natural gas supply does not fall below around 50% of our maximum demand, we will be able to operate the Verbund in Ludwigshafen at a reduced load. Our mitigation measures include the following. Where technically feasible, the preparations to substitute natural gas, for example, with fuel oil, are progressing well and technical optimizations are in place. In addition, we have developed scenarios and implemented measures to optimize production at our European sites. We are reducing production at facilities that require large amounts of natural gas, such as ammonia plants.

This is standard practice in the chemical industry, for example, when margins are not economically viable. The graph on the slide shows the largest consumers of natural gas at the Ludwigshafen site. Ammonia is the largest natural gas consumer, with around 50% of the total demand as feedstock. In contrast to some other gas consumers at the Ludwigshafen site, external sourcing of ammonia is possible. Externally sourced ammonia is therefore an important element of our risk mitigation considerations in the event of a major curtailment of natural gas volumes. The second biggest consumer is the acetylene plant, followed by syngas production. Together, both plants account for almost another 25% of the total natural gas demand as a feedstock. Power and steam production in Ludwigshafen can partially be switched to fuel oil, and thus substituting around 15% of the natural gas otherwise needed for this.

Compared with Q1 2022, natural gas prices declined slightly in the Q2 of 2022, but remained on a very high level. In Q2 2022, the additional cost for BASF's European sites amounted to EUR 800 million compared with the same quarter of 2021. In comparison with the Q2 of 2020, the increase was EUR 1 billion. To mitigate these higher costs, we have implemented and will continue to implement further price increases. I will now move on to the volume development by segment. In the Q2 of 2022, sales volumes of BASF Group declined slightly. This was mainly due to a lower precious metal volume, which accounted for 99% of the volume decline in the Surface Technologies segment. Excluding this effect, BASF sales volumes were almost stable with -0.2% compared with the Q2 of 2021. On a segment level, Agricultural Solutions and Nutrition & Care saw a positive volume development. Now, I would like to hand over to Hans for further details.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Thank you, Martin, and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Let me start with our sales and earnings development in Q2 2022. Sales increased by 16% to EUR 23 billion, primarily due to 13% higher sales prices. All divisions increased prices except for Catalysts, where lower prices for precious metals led to a decline in sales prices. Currency effects of +7% also contributed to the positive sales development and were mainly related to the US dollar. Lower sales volumes, mainly due to reduced precious metal volumes, had a slightly offsetting effect. As already mentioned, EBIT before special items reached EUR 2.3 billion, matching the level of the very strong prior year quarter. At segment level, Agricultural Solutions and Nutrition & Care considerably increased EBIT before special items compared with the prior year quarter, and Industrial Solutions slightly increased earnings.

The Chemicals, Materials, and Surface Technologies segments recorded considerably lower EBIT before special items in Q2 2022. In the two upstream segments, we saw a normalization in margins compared with the prior year quarter that was more pronounced in Materials than in Chemicals. In the Materials segments, lower demand from the automotive industry contributed to the decline in earnings. In the following, I will comment on the business development of the downstream segments in more detail and give some additional information. I will start with Surface Technologies. Sales in the Surface Technologies segment declined by 8% and amounted to EUR 5.4 billion. Lower volumes and lower prices in the Catalysts division were the main driver for this development. Positive currency and portfolio effects had an offsetting effect. The Coatings division achieved considerable price increases and slightly higher volumes.

EBIT before special items declined from EUR 289 million in Q2 2021 to EUR 227 million in the Q2 of 2022 on account of lower earnings in the Coatings division. In the light of the strong and increasingly dilutive impact of precious metal sales on BASF's KPIs, we will start disclosing additional information. As of Q2 2022, sales in the Surface Technologies segment will be broken down to reflect sales excluding precious metal trading and precious metal sales in mobile emissions catalysts. Using the adjusted Q2 2022 sales figure for the Surface Technologies segment as a basis, the segment's EBITDA margin before special items increases by 10.1 percentage points to 16.8%, and for the first half of 2022 by 11.2 percentage points to 18.2%.

For the BASF Group, the EBITDA margin before special items based on the adjusted sales figure for Surface Technologies excluding precious metals increases by 2.4 percentage points to 16.7% in the Q2 of 2022, and by 2.6 percentage points to 17.9% in the first half of the year. We believe that this enhanced disclosure helps investors to better understand the earnings profile of the business. For more information, please refer to BASF's half year financial report on page 49. I now turn to Nutrition & Care segments, where sales increased considerably because of significantly higher prices and positive currency effects. Volumes declined slightly in the Care Chemicals division and increased slightly in the Nutrition and Health division. EBIT before special items increased considerably due to the significantly higher earnings in the Care Chemicals division.

Let me also address the changes in our Nutrition & Health division that we have recently announced. The division will strengthen its commitment as a leading ingredients partner to the nutrition and flavor and fragrance industries. Going forward, Nutrition & Health will consist of three focused global business units for Nutrition Ingredients, Aroma Ingredients, and Pharma Solutions. The next slide provides more details. In Nutrition Ingredients, we will act as a strong ingredients partner to the animal and human nutrition industries. We will strengthen our core product platforms, which are deeply rooted in the BASF Verbund, and invest in vitamins and feed enzymes. Our food and health performance ingredients portfolio, which is produced at our site in Illertissen, Germany, plays a vital role in addressing growing trends in human nutrition. However, the business has limited portfolio synergies and integration into the BASF Verbund.

Therefore, strategic options will be evaluated to identify suitable opportunities for this business. In Aroma Ingredients, we will further build on our strong ingredients position to address sustainability trends in the flavor and fragrance industries. We will focus on growth investments in the citral value chain and on innovation to support the sustainability needs of our customers. In Pharma Solutions, we will continue to offer our broad portfolio of excipients based on core value chains and selected active ingredients. For biopharmaceuticals, we will focus on growth and innovation. In addition, we will partner with customers in developing effective and reliable formulations, also with increasing use of digital solutions. I will now turn to the Agricultural Solutions segment, which recorded a strong Q2 . Significantly higher prices in all regions, paired with favorable currency effects and higher volumes led to a positive sales development.

This reflects overall strong demand in the northern hemisphere in 2022. EBIT before special items increased considerably, mainly driven by higher sales offsetting higher costs. Global agricultural markets continue to be healthy with robust commodity prices, while challenges from global raw material and transportation capacity shortages and inflationary cost increases remain. We look optimistically into the second half and expect a good start into the season in South America. In the following, I will briefly look in more detail at the financial figures for BASF Group in the Q2 of 2022 compared with the prior year quarter. I will start with EBITDA before special items, which increased by EUR 76 million and amounted to EUR 3.3 billion. EBITDA reached EUR 3.4 billion, an increase of 6%.

At EUR 2.3 billion, EBIT before special items reached the high level of the prior year quarter. Special items in EBIT amounted to +EUR 11 million, compared with minus EUR 39 million in the Q2 of 2021. EBIT increased by 1.5% to EUR 2.4 billion in Q2 2022. Net income from shareholdings increased by EUR 477 million to EUR 433 million. The considerable increase compared with the prior year quarter primarily resulted from the higher income from our shareholding in Wintershall Dea, which amounted to EUR 446 million. Net income amounted to EUR 2.1 billion, compared with EUR 1.7 billion in the prior year quarter. The increase was mainly driven by higher net income from shareholdings.

Let's now look at the details of our cash flow development in Q2 2022 compared with the prior year quarter. Cash flows from operating activities amounted to EUR 1.2 billion, a decrease of EUR 1.3 billion compared with the prior year quarter. The decline was mainly driven by higher bonus payments, which were almost EUR 1 billion higher than in the prior year quarter. Overall, changes in net working capital led to a cash outflow of EUR 1.7 billion, compared with a cash inflow of EUR 9 million in Q2 2021. Cash flows from investing activities amounted to -EUR 639 million in the Q2 of 2022, compared with +EUR 323 million in the prior year quarter.

In Q2 2021, proceeds from divestiture, particularly from the divestment of BASF's pigment business, led to the positive development. Payments for property, plant, and equipment and intangible assets rose by 16% to EUR 892 million. Free cash flow thus decreased by EUR 1.4 billion to EUR 336 million in Q2 2022. The decline was mainly caused by the lower cash flows from operating activities. Turning to our balance sheet at the end of June 2022 compared with year-end 2021. Total assets increased by EUR 9.6 billion to EUR 97 billion. Non-current assets amounted to EUR 53.6 billion, an increase of EUR 1.3 billion. The increase was mainly driven by translation effects due to the depreciation of the euro.

Current assets increased by EUR 8.3 billion to EUR 43.4 billion, mainly due to higher trade accounts receivable. In addition, higher inventories, other receivables and miscellaneous assets and cash and cash equivalents contributed to the increase. Non-current liabilities decreased by EUR 1.3 billion to EUR 24 billion, mainly due to lower provisions for pensions and similar obligations. These provisions decreased by 50% to EUR 3.1 billion due to higher interest rates. Net debt increased by EUR 5.2 billion to EUR 19.5 billion at the end of June 2022. The equity ratio was 37.8% compared with 48.2% at the end of 2021. With that, back to you, Martin.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to give you an update on the progress of construction at our new Verbund site in Zhanjiang in China. In December 2019, we kicked off the investment project with the decision for an initial phase ahead of the main Verbund to respond to the high demand from our customer industries. As planned, and despite all COVID-19 challenges, the first plant for the production of engineering plastics is currently starting up. The second plant for thermoplastic polyurethanes will come on stream in mid 2023. Following the final approval for the construction of the planned Verbund site in Zhanjiang, we are now starting construction of phase I. This is the implementation of the main part of the project, what we call the heart of the Verbund.

This phase comprises a world-class mixed feed steam cracker, several value chains for petrochemicals, intermediates, and chemicals for consumer products, as well as related infrastructure. It is planned to start up this core complex in a sequence as of the end of 2025. Further expansion and diversification of the value chains with additional product lines is already in preparation and is planned to be implemented in the second phase that is scheduled to go on stream from 2028 onwards. BASF will implement the most advanced process technologies and will power the entire Zhanjiang Verbund site with 100% renewable electricity.

By utilizing the latest digital technologies and applying the highest safety standards, the site is intended to be developed as a role model for smart manufacturing and sustainable production. The new Verbund site in Zhanjiang will be a key platform for long-term profitable and sustainable growth, not only in Greater China, but for the BASF Group as a whole. To conclude, I would like to present you our adjusted outlook for 2022. We now expect global economic growth and chemical production to grow by 2.5% each. Global industrial production is expected to grow by 3.0%. We anticipate an average oil price of $110 per barrel Brent crude, and an exchange rate of $1.07 per euro.

For the second half of the year, BASF anticipates a gradual cooling of the economic development globally, but much more pronounced in Europe. This assumes that there is no severe restriction coming from new lockdowns in China, and that natural gas shortages do not lead to production shutdowns in Europe. Due to the very positive business development in the first half of 2022, we are adjusting the forecast for the BASF Group for the 2022 business year. Based on the above-mentioned assumptions, we are now forecasting higher sales of between EUR 86 billion and EUR 89 billion for 2022. The lower end of the range for BASF Group EBIT before special items was increased to EUR 6.8 billion from EUR 6.6 billion. The upper end remains unchanged at EUR 7.2 billion.

We are confident that we can achieve the upper end of this range. ROCE is likely to be lower at 10.5%-11% because of the higher capital base driven by price and currency effects. We expect lower CO₂ emissions of between 18.4 million metric tons and 19.4 million metric tons in 2022. As additional information, I would like to add that we expect CapEx to amount to less than EUR 4 billion in 2022, lower than our original planning of EUR 4.6 billion. Current developments, mainly driven by the war in Ukraine and its impact on energy and raw material prices and the availability of raw materials, especially in Europe, may lead to additional headwinds deviating from the assumptions I just presented.

In particular, risk could arise from production stoppage at major European sites as a result of further restrictions to European gas supplies from Russia. In this case, the loss of European capacities could be partially compensated for by higher plant utilization, capacity utilization at the sites outside of Europe. Further risks could arise from the future course of the corona pandemic and new measures to contain the number of infections. Opportunities could arise from continued high margins, even in the case of an economic slowdown. We are responding to the economic slowdown with cost reduction measures. Now we are glad to take your questions.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Ladies and gentlemen, I would now like to open the call for your questions. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star followed by one on their touchtone telephone. For the best sound quality, we kindly ask you to be sure to unmute your phone and use your headset when asking your questions. Given that already 13 analysts here applied to ask a question, I would ask you to only ask one, maximum two questions at a time. We will begin with Christian Faitz, Kepler Cheuvreux. He will be followed by Gunther Zechmann, and then Andrew Stott. Now it's Christian Faitz, Kepler Cheuvreux.

Christian Faitz
Senior Equity Research Analyst of Chemicals, Kepler Cheuvreux

Yes, thank you, Stefanie. Good morning, Hans. Good morning, Martin. Two questions, if I may. First of all, Agricultural Solutions. You talk about lower volumes in Europe. Is this weather- related, i.e., less fungus and insect pressure and hence sales channels being full? At the same time, you have a strong increase in overall nominal fungicide sales that would suggest significant growth outside of Europe. Would that be a correct observation? Second question: What is your current scenario on the Rhine River levels and potential curtailments in this year of exceptional drought in Western Europe, which could easily top the 2018 situation? Thank you.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Christian, maybe I start with the Rhine River. You know that we have actually, with the impact we had in 2018, taken a lot of measures and studied mitigation measures, but also, let's say, our infrastructure. First of all, and I think this is very important, we installed a forecast system, an early warning forecast system, which gives us a lead of 6 weeks at least to know what is coming, and that gives you also the time to prepare in terms of logistic measures and increasing your inventories. Second part is, that was the other effect from logistics. That was the cooling water situation where you have an upper level of water temperature to be released.

We have actually changed the setup and have invested in infrastructure so that we have closed cooling loops with air cooling, which makes us much less vulnerable on the temperature level of the river. We have also engaged in the shipbuilding, which I have to admit is not yet driving. We have also leased all those ships that have actually a comparably low depth and can drive at much lower Rhine levels. We have partially also then organized to reshuffle from ship to other logistical means. I think by all that in the current moment, we are not worried that we come in a similar situation. What is then beyond the 6 and 8 weeks I cannot forecast, but I would say we are much better prepared in terms of such an impact than in 2018. It's not really a worry in the moment. Enhance on Agricultural Solutions?

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Good morning, Christian. Happy to take your questions on Agricultural Solutions. Indeed, weather affecting business in Europe a bit. The drought conditions here had an impact on the application of crop protection products. You've seen the results of the quarter overall, which is very strong, in particular also due to the pricing initiatives that we've driven across the portfolio. Fungicides, as you mentioned, strong business, a very strong business, in particular outside of Europe. With respect to the channels based on latest information that I have, that's actually a situation in Europe which I would describe as normal, and a situation in North America which I would describe as channel inventories being at the lower end of what we see under normal circumstances. Hope this helps.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

We move on to Gunther Zechmann, Bernstein. Please go ahead.

Gunther Zechmann
Senior Equity Research Analyst and Head of Chemicals Equity Research, Bernstein

Good morning, gentlemen. Thanks for taking my questions. The first one's on the gas price, the second one on China. On the gas price, to what extent do you expect that you have higher costs just from the mitigation measures that you talk about, thinking of fuel oil, maybe externally sourcing ammonia. So what does that do to your cost base, and where do you expect that certain value chains might not be economically viable? I think you mentioned that in the speech, as well. Then the second one on China, you put China chemical production at 3.1% in Q2. Your China volumes were down, over 17%. Why is it that BASF is so much more affected by lockdowns than the industry or are there any other factors that would contribute to that delta please?

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Yeah. Gunther Zechmann, this is Hans-Ulrich Engel. I'll try to answer your gas price question, which is not an easy one, because where we are substituting, you are looking at situations where you are substituting against a gas price, which is very, very high. Look at yesterday's spot price for Northwestern Europe, which hit the 200 EUR mark per MWh. It may actually be cheaper to use, as an example, heating oil to produce your steam than use very expensive natural gas. It really depends case by case. What we've done is we've given you the increase in energy costs that we have overall, both for Q1 and for Q2.

It adds up for the BASF group to a total of EUR 2 billion in the first half. I think that's the way to look at it and to compare the earnings of BASF in a situation like this, which are at or even above the prior year level. Value chains potentially affected. I mean, Martin mentioned already in his part of the speech, ammonia. We also clearly are looking at the acetylene and BDO value chains. These are value chains at current high gas prices that obviously are under significant competitive pressure. I think we're taking the right measures there to go for that.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Gunther, just one answer here on China. I don't have the split for each and everything, but the lockdown in the car industry and the automotive industry was the main impact here. You know that 20% of global sales and in China, the share is even a little bit higher, from the portfolio, and that was basically the reason why we had this steep decline. As we also said in May and June, this also came very steeply up again.

Gunther Zechmann
Senior Equity Research Analyst and Head of Chemicals Equity Research, Bernstein

That's very helpful. Thank you both.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Okay. The next question, it comes from Andrew Stott, UBS. We will then have Matthew Yates, Mubashir Chaudhry and Tony Jones. Now it's Andrew Stott, UBS.

Andrew Stott
Managing Director, UBS

Yeah. Thanks, Stefanie. Morning, Martin. Morning, Hans, as well. First question was on just coming back to the comments you made, Martin, in your speech on natural gas allocation. You picked out a 50% allocation and being able to run Ludwigshafen on a reduced rate. Is there a reason you picked 50%? Is that a pre-agreed number with the German government for phase III, or is that just a scenario? That's the first question related to this. The second one is following on from Gunther's question on fuel oil replacement. There's an asterisk in your statement within that, which says that this obviously assumes you can secure the fuel oil. Is that just a basic caveat or are there real potential problems in getting that fuel oil replacement? Final question, and sorry, it is all related to the same thing. I just wanna make sure I read this right. Is it the case that you think you can displace 15% of your gas requirement at Ludwigshafen by fuel oil? Thank you.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Andrew, I hope I get your pessimistic view on chemical industry a little bit up. Let me try to answer this question. This 50% is actually an own BASF estimate. I mean, we have never shut down the site in 157 years. We have done all kind of analysis, and you can imagine with all these different users, you can make hundreds and thousands of scenarios. If you consider on one hand steam demand, which is something which you cannot buy outside, you might reduce power production because you can buy electricity from outside, but you cannot buy steam from outside. That is a significant part of running that.

On the other hand, you have mentioned apart from the raw material side, then you can already figure out that 50% is not such a wrong number, but that is not a number that was agreed with someone. That is our own rough estimate where it is about to keep the whole thing running. I have also to admit, however, like in the past, where people said that you can run a steam cracker only at 40%-45%, and during the Lehman crisis, we have actually run it much lower run rate. I would also not exclude that the BASF guys, ultimately they learn every week, can also do better than this. This is, I think, a rough guess, which we have today.

Fuel replacement, you know that if you have burners, that they are very much designed on the fuel, so you cannot just switch from gas to liquid. Theoretically, some of the plants could. If we would have a little bit more lead time and we would have equipment to change burners, we could even increase the 15% of fuel gas here in Ludwigshafen, and we're working on such ideas. The question is how fast something like that could be done. That is certainly nothing which will happen beyond what we already mentioned here at the site. That could be a preparation even for next winter, which is still one that is under consideration of gas shortage. Be sure that we continuously improve and get less dependent on gas. I think these were your questions. Sorry, you were talking about the fuel oil. I mean, we talk here about volumes which we actually secured. We have also, I mentioned in the speech, Schwarzheide, which is a smaller power plant, for example, which we can run 100% of fuel oil. We have totally secured the fuel over there. I don't think we talk about here volumes for BASF that would have significant market impact.

Andrew Stott
Managing Director, UBS

Okay. Thank you.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Okay. Now we move on to Matthew Yates, Bank of America.

Matthew Yates
Managing Director of European Chemicals, Bank of America

Hey, good morning, everyone. Just one question, please, and I'd like to ask about Wintershall. BASF obviously chose to invest its capital many, many years ago into oil and gas assets because it was intended to create somewhat of a portfolio hedge for you, which in the current energy price environment is very beneficial. However, the decisions you've made over the last few years around the structure and the governance of this asset means that BASF shareholders are currently not really seeing any cash benefit from owning these assets, irrespective of the EUR half a billion of profit booked on the P&L. Can you update us on your thinking to monetizing this business, either through a disposal, or the prospect of receiving some meaningful cash dividends at some point in the coming quarters? Thank you.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Yeah. Matthew Yates, this is Hans Engel. Thanks for your question. I mean, what are the current cash flows from Wintershall Dea? You rightly pointed this out. This is by way of dividend. We've received the dividend on the preferred shares in the Q2 ,and or, may have been end of Q1. I don't recall exactly. We are expecting a dividend payment also then on the common shares in the second half of the year. As you know, we've made a strategic decision to exit this business via an IPO, which didn't work in 2020 and didn't work in 2021 for obvious reasons. Currently also not working. We are looking at ways to monetize, as you can imagine. We will speak about this when the time has come. I think first of all, importantly to say, cash flow of BASF is supported at this point in time through the dividend payments that are coming out of Wintershall Dea.

Matthew Yates
Managing Director of European Chemicals, Bank of America

Can I follow up on that, please? Can you elaborate a little bit what the exact dividend policy of Wintershall is? Obviously, in recent history, the company had quite a high debt burden, but that's rapidly coming down. What are the criteria for the timing and size of any dividend over the coming quarters?

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

I can't give you the details. The shareholders will decide on the dividend and obviously, the cash position of the company and the liquidity that the company has on which it has reported yesterday, as you have seen, will play an important role in making that decision now during the second half of the year.

Matthew Yates
Managing Director of European Chemicals, Bank of America

Understood. Thank you very much.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now we move on to Mubashir Chaudhry from Citi. Please go ahead.

Mubashir Chaudhry
VP of Equity Research, Citi

Hi. Thank you for taking my questions. Just to follow up on the Ludwigshafen flexibility, can you give us a feel of how quickly the utilization can be brought up and down? Is it something that can happen within days or it requires a longer-term planning in terms of being able to bring down the utilization and should if and when the situation improve, being able to take it back up? That's the first question. The second question is a little bit more around the leverage. The net debt's moved up a little bit. Given your forecast of quite a weak second half. Do you feel comfortable around continuing with the buyback at this pace, or is there potential to be slowing it down a little bit? Just some thoughts around the capital framework would be helpful. Thank you.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

I quickly start the talk about the first one. We have never actually shut down the site, but we certainly know where the critical assets are. Usually, if there would not be a gas supply anymore, in conversation with the pipeline suppliers, you have about the pressure on the pipelines for about maybe 6-8 hours. Then it falls to a certain threshold where then also safety measures have to kick in in the plants to protect the plants. That means that's about the time you can drive down the facilities. For most of this, for most of the plants, this is totally uncritical. You have some plants that are at a high temperature level. If they cool, if you cool down them too fast, you actually destroy the reactor because you get cracks and whatever. We know which these facilities are, and I think if we would see that coming, we would maybe start with those first. Overall, I think the response time we have, this is hard work for them, but we can manage.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Yeah, Mubashir, this is Hans. I'll take your question on net debt and on buyback. First of all, on net debt, yes, it has moved up. That is not out of the ordinary that net debt moves up after Q2, in which among other things, we pay the dividend. At EUR 19.5 billion, it stays within the range that we've seen between, say, 2019 and 2022. So also there, nothing out of the ordinary. On the buyback program, we have progressed. You may have seen what we showed on the website, beginning of this week. We've bought back in the meantime a bit more than 20 million shares at roughly EUR 1 billion that we spent for it. It is our full intent to continue with the program as announced.

Mubashir Chaudhry
VP of Equity Research, Citi

Thank you.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now we move on to Tony Jones, Redburn. We will then have Markus Mayer and then Jaideep Pandya. Now Tony Jones, Redburn.

Tony Jones
Partner, Redburn

Thanks, Martin, Hans, and Steffi. I've got two left, please. Thanks for the update on the gas shortage plan. It's really helpful. If we assume that your 50% scenario plays out, can you give us a rough indication of the EBIT impact on an annualized basis? There's a lot of moving parts, so any indication would be really appreciated. On the cash flows, we've seen high input costs and maybe procurement's been stock building on some critical inputs now ahead of a shortage. Should we therefore be expecting working capital to still be a negative in the second half? Thank you.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Tony, I start with the first one, clearly, to say clearly, we cannot give you any impact here because that depends on so many things. I mean, first of all, what is the real level? You said 50%, which is then the critical threshold. The question is then how we really react. What would be the power price from the grid? Do we get enough over there? If we buy ammonia at what price actually? If we bring in BDO derivatives, maybe from our Chinese operations into Ludwigshafen, what is the price and the transfer level here? It has so many impacts that I think this would be really a guess number. It's a rather big range where you can theoretically think about it, and I would not engage now to mention one number. I hope you understand that.

Tony Jones
Partner, Redburn

Thank you.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Yeah, Tony, on your cash flow question, no, we do not expect to increase net working capital. Just to the contrary, we expect that net working capital will decrease. You look at raw material price developments over the last months. They, leaving gas aside, they seem to have peaked now in Q2, so we don't expect much further increases there. If anyhow, when you think about BASF's business profile, the second half of the year, lower sales, rough split there, 60% in the first half of the year, 40% in the second half of the year, we will bring inventory down. As a result of all of that, expectation is that there will be cash releases from net working capital.

Tony Jones
Partner, Redburn

Thank you, Hans. That's really helpful.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Since we still have 10 analysts in the queue, I would suggest and really request you to focus on one question you really want to ask. We now have Markus Mayer, Baader Helvea, then Jaideep Pandya, and then Laurent Favre from BNP Paribas. Now Markus Mayer, please go ahead.

Markus Mayer
Head of Chemical Sector Coverage & Head of Research, Baader Bank AG

Yes, thank you. One or several small questions on the guidance, basically. Have I understood it correctly that you are still confident to reach the upper end of your EBIT guidance range? And also, as add-on question to this, the potential production cuts in BDO, ammonia, and acetylene, is already included in the guidance, in the lower end, I guess? Or is this basically already still outside of the guidance? And also cost reduction measures you have said, have they been already included in the guidance?

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

I think this is all, I think, a realistic picture. Yes, we think we can reach the upper level. Basically, I hope that was seen right from you. What we described is a kind of a soft landing towards the year end, so nothing going rigorously down, but it is softening from a demand side, and that means supply-demand is softening, but that means also pricing power is softening. This all goes basically weaker. Actually, the idea is that when the softening and the weakening of the margins is counteracted by some of the cost reductions, this is partially postponement, which I think is also natural to think about when do you need what when you are in a softer environment. It also might come then to the point that we also think structurally to cut some of the costs, and really go to lower overall cost basis. So that includes certainly also our assumptions, which kind of products we might reduce and we might buy in. Ammonia you mentioned is one, or is actually the biggest factor here. So I think you should take that with a lot of positive confidence from our side.

Markus Mayer
Head of Chemical Sector Coverage & Head of Research, Baader Bank AG

Okay. Perfect. Thank you so much.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now, Jaideep Pandya, On Field Research.

Jaideep Pandya
Partner, On Field Research

Yeah, just one question, but it's just about two dimensions. Your CO₂ guidance for the year, roughly speaking, about 1 million tons lower. What is the background for this, please? Is it just ammonia reduction, or is this more to it given that you are increasing your fuel oil consumption? I would assume your Scope 1 is increasing, but you're still guiding for a lower CO₂. Second part to this is, there's a significant divergence in chemical prices in China versus Europe and the U.S. If we stick to ammonia, just for an example, what is the cost disadvantage right now on an overall basis for producing this in China versus Europe and the U.S.? Just wanna understand, you know, is there a scenario where you're gonna produce much more in your Chinese assets and ship rather than produce in your European assets? Thank you.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

I think with the CO₂, it's a little bit of everything what you said. I mean, first of all, you see that this is not a year with a very strong volume effect. Secondly, we would then actually shift indeed if we buy in ammonia and shut down own production, we shift from Scope 1 to Scope 3, which is also clear. But on the other hand, we have also showed you a plan in the Capital Markets Day that we actually reduce both by OpEx measures and by increasing the amount of green electricity. And all that together actually gives this effect. And as you think, we are in July already, half of the year is going away, so it is about the next 4 or 5 months, 6 months.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Jaideep, this is Hans. I don't have the necessary details answering your question. What I can tell you is that ammonia prices at this point in time in Asia and in North America are pretty much at the same levels, likely below $1,000 per metric ton. A little bit higher currently in Europe for obvious reasons. That's the difference in gas costs there. As far as I know, now I'm looking to Martin, who has the China expertise. We don't produce any ammonia in China, so no way to bring it out of our own system. We are producing in a world-scale plant in a joint venture together with Yara in Freeport. When you look at natural gas prices in the U.S., which have also increased, which are currently at $8-$9 per MMBtu, you can imagine there's a big advantage for a U.S. ammonia producer. We're certainly tapping into the potential, let me put it this way, that we have there.

Jaideep Pandya
Partner, On Field Research

All right. Thank you.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now, I see here Laurent Favre in the system, but I assume it's Laurent Favre, BNP Paribas.

Laurent Favre
Managing Director, BNP Paribas

No, it's my brother, Steffie. Good morning, all. My question is on Zhanjiang, on the CapEx. I think when we did a deep dive back in September, you had highlighted EUR 8-10 billion of CapEx, and since then we've had inflation everywhere and the euro has come down by more than 10%. I was wondering, what is the latest on CapEx budget for Zhanjiang? And then related to that, in the current market environment in China, what would be the EBITDA contribution of the assets fully ramped up? Thank you.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

I talk about the first part. Indeed, it's on the upper end of what you mentioned, but the important part is that the team reduced in RMB the investment sum. It is basically a reporting issue because of the exchange rate between the euro and the RMB. The second part?

Laurent Favre
Managing Director, BNP Paribas

Not more than EUR 10 billion then?

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Yep.

Laurent Favre
Managing Director, BNP Paribas

Okay.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

This is Hans. Laurent, your second question was on earnings potential.

Laurent Favre
Managing Director, BNP Paribas

Yes.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Fully ramped up?

Laurent Favre
Managing Director, BNP Paribas

Yes.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Yeah. No change there. We're still working with for the year 2030, a bit more than EUR 1 billion in EBITDA.

Laurent Favre
Managing Director, BNP Paribas

Okay. Thank you.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Welcome.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

We will now move on to Chetan Udeshi, JP Morgan. He will be followed by Georgina Fraser and then Charlie Webb. Now Chetan Udeshi, JP Morgan, please go ahead.

Chetan Udeshi
Executive Director, JPMorgan

Yeah. Hi. Thanks. I was just curious in terms of understanding what was the reasoning for not assuming any production cuts in Europe in remainder of the year, especially given the European Commission came out with a clear guidance that all member states have to reduce production or gas consumption rather by 15% on average. I mean, the point I'm trying to get to is. It feels for us externally that BASF is not yet in a crisis mode to manage this situation. Is that a fair assessment? Or have you thought about, like, how you're gonna deal with this situation, not just in terms of technical, production, metric, but more in a strategic, commercial, framework? Because, you know, I was also looking at Martin, your comments about substituting some of the production from Europe to rest of the world, but I didn't see any mention of maybe, you know, trying to optimize the pricing, et cetera, to manage that situation. I'm just trying to understand how is the company thinking about the whole situation, overall.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Chetan, I don't know why you think we are not in a crisis mode. We are in a crisis mode, but not in a panic mode. I think this is important because I think the team, as I mentioned always, this is a moment of pride because they are really good in managing this. You know, we had several of them in the past where actually then the team gets the maximum out of it. We have calculated ourselves to death in hundreds of scenarios, how to do certain things and to reduce that and to import here. I think that comes together on the other hand, what is happening on the external part.

I think if you'd already look on the share of Russian gas in Germany, which has come down from 50% to now lower than 35%. Also, basically at the end of the year, kicking in the first LNG terminals, the floating ones in Germany. You most probably read maybe this morning that France announced now to deliver gas to Germany, then to restart the power plants, the coal-fired power plants, now even to consider the further reduction with running the nuclear power plants more and then the saving on the other hand everywhere.

If you take all that, including the level of storage and maybe assume that the part from the Russians go up a little bit, we are in a scenario that even this winter we could cover gas Germany, gas Europe, if that is not maybe a particularly cold winter or if it's a normal winter. I think in all that together based on our share to reduce basically from 100% to 50%, that's 2% of German gas usage. We are confident that the basic scenario we get through without an interruption here. I would say we are on all levels engaged, fully prepared for all kind of scenarios, but we are optimistic that we can get through this. You mentioned also certainly the activation of your global grid, your global capacities, then running our capacities in other regions full, to also support European customers. All that, we are in crisis mode, but we are not panicking. This is why we have brought you these assumptions for the second half.

Chetan Udeshi
Executive Director, JPMorgan

Thank you.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now Georgina Fraser, Goldman Sachs.

Georgina Fraser
Equity Research Analyst of European Chemicals, Goldman Sachs

Yeah, thank you, and good morning, Martin. Good morning, Hans. I wanted to ask a longer-term question related to the competitive pressures in certain value chains. Do you see today already the basis for a structural shift of chemical production to be relocated outside of Europe on the back of this energy crisis? Would that impact the chemical industry's ability to decarbonize? I'm gonna try and sneak one more in, if that's okay. Just to leverage your insights on the German government's crisis management plan. If the gas continues to flow at the rate we have just now, 20%, at what point does the government trigger phase III? Thanks.

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

Okay, maybe on the first two. I mean, I think it's too early now to make all these calculations. I think that we have a competitiveness issue in Europe far beyond the chemical industry, is no doubt. We will have structurally higher energy costs because one contribution of the Baltic and also the growth in Europe was the cheap Russian gas. This is now LNG based. You know that there is a 5-6 $ per MMBtu adder for gasification transport and regasification. That will structurally bring the costs up. What then the long-term prices are, how much LNG comes in, this is, I think, too early to say. That certainly has to trigger some thoughts about long-term competitiveness and further capacity growth. You might run out capacities but not build new ones.

It also strongly depends on the integration. You know that we also add a lot of margin by using these raw materials in the whole value chain. There's a whole lot of considerations to this. I think Europe has to think about its competitiveness long term when it comes to energy prices far beyond chemical industry. I think that can actually burden the decarbonization plans because you know that. I'm not talking now for BASF, but for the chemical industry as such, there's a lot of investments to be done to really decarbonize. If the margins get smaller, the earnings get smaller, then this might have an effect about the speed and the capability to invest in decarbonization. A little bit too early to say. The German plan, maybe Hans?

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Yeah. Georgina, this will be pure speculation. I mean, if you look at what the German government has done so far for phase I and also for phase II, compared to what happened in other countries such as Italy and Austria, Germany was not a front runner. I'd say, based on everything that we've experienced so far, the German government is carefully analyzing the situation and then making the right calls at the right point in time. Let's see what's going to happen with gas flows over the next weeks. Now give my very personal opinion. I don't expect anything to happen with respect to a phase III call prior to the end of September, early October. That's a personal guess, and we'll see what happens.

Georgina Fraser
Equity Research Analyst of European Chemicals, Goldman Sachs

Thank you both so much.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

We still have five. I urge you to ask one question because it's 11:00 already, but we would like to give you the chance to also ask a few questions. Now we have Charlie Webb, then Peter Clark, and then Sebastian Bray. Charlie Webb, Morgan Stanley, please go ahead.

Charlie Webb
Executive Director, Morgan Stanley

Thank you very much, Stephanie. Morning, everyone. Maybe just one on this kind of normalization obviously you're expecting in the second half. Just maybe can you allude to some of the kind of upstream normalization you see might unfold? You know, which chains are you seeing some softening? And how are those kind of discussions with customers around pricing, how have those evolved, you know, perhaps versus the first half of the year looking into the second half of the year? Do you get any sense that those customers are destocking or kind of trying to turn, I guess, the kind of price momentum the other way? And how should we think about that with kind of the lingering inflation that's around? Thank you.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Thank you, Charlie. I tried to count how many questions these actually were, but I'm trying to answer as quickly as I can. Normalization we've seen in a number of products, starting in particular in North America with cracker products, where prices and margins have come down quite a bit. The same is true for cracker margins in Asia. We've seen this also during the course of Q2 and also going into Q3 in the acrylics value chain, in particular with respect to acrylic acid. We've seen it with respect to BDO. Frankly, this is not a big surprise.

If you think back to the guidance that we've given at the beginning of the year, we clearly addressed it. We clearly said that we are expecting margins to come down from the very high levels that we had in 2021 in the upstream business. I should have also mentioned that we see MDI becoming weaker in Asia and in particular in China. We see actually now what we had already addressed earlier in the year. That was the question on normalization. Pricing, look at what we've done in the first half of the year. Look at what we've done across the businesses in Q2 in particular considering the high raw material and the high energy prices. We will have to continue. Does this make customers happy? No, it does not. Do customers, in the end understand? Yes, they do. Has it become more difficult during the course of the year? Yes, it has.

Charlie Webb
Executive Director, Morgan Stanley

Very helpful. Thank you very much.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Okay, now it's Peter Clark, Société Générale. Please go ahead.

Peter Clark
Head of Global Chemicals Equity Research, Société Générale

Yes, good morning, everyone. Thank you. It's back on the cash flow. You seem pretty comfortable with the cash flow, and I accept there's a lot of inflationary effects that work through. You have got the CapEx significantly rising into this. Are you still on for the EUR 25.6 billion five-year plan? I think EUR 6 billion was next year, 'cause clearly China's going ahead. What level of net debt EBITDA would you start to get worried? 'Cause I have over 2 next year, but I'm a bit more bearish than you, I think.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

On cash flow, I think for the second half, Peter, I already addressed that, what our expectation is. We have not made any changes to our five-year CapEx plan. We will look at this during now in the new budgeting and planning phase. My point of view at this point in time is we will not see too much change there. Currently we're sitting at a leverage ratio, which I think, with a balance sheet like BASF has it, with the kind of EBITDA and cash flow that we generate, that you and I should not be worried about.

Peter Clark
Head of Global Chemicals Equity Research, Société Générale

Understood. Thank you.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now Sebastian Bray, Berenberg, and we will then have Andreas Heine and Robert Hales to conclude. Sebastian Bray, Berenberg, please go ahead.

Sebastian Bray
Head of Chemicals Research, Berenberg

Hello. Thank you for taking my questions. Two quick ones, please. Firstly, what is the sales value of, on an annualized basis, of the business under strategic review in Nutrition and Care? Secondly, how messy could the exit process from Wintershall get? What I mean by this is my guess is that LetterOne has some type of veto rights that are making it more difficult than BASF would have liked to extract cash from that business. Do the articles governing the control of the company have scope for arbitration, if LetterOne digs in its heels? How long could this process take? Thank you.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Sebastian, this is Hans. First, your question on how messy can an exit get, I don't think that this will get messy. Expect the shareholders to have agreed on certain exit rights to kick in at certain points in time. I'd say what's been agreed upon is within the frame that one would call an ordinary and usual or customary framework that's been agreed upon. That's why I do not expect an exit to get messy. Then I think your first question related to our Illertissen business. I don't think that we have disclosed anything on. We have disclosed the employees, but this is not what Sebastian is interested in. He would like to know what the earnings potential is of that business. We haven't disclosed that. As we said, we're looking into strategic options there, Sebastian. Hope this helps even though I didn't tell you a lot.

Sebastian Bray
Head of Chemicals Research, Berenberg

Thank you. What is the employee number? I haven't seen this.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

330.

Sebastian Bray
Head of Chemicals Research, Berenberg

Thank you. That's very helpful.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now Andreas Heine, Stifel.

Andreas Heine
Managing Director and Head of European Chemical Equity Research, Stifel

I have very briefly, just could we give an update where you stand with the carve-out process of the automotives, automotive catalysts and how you intend this to continue?

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Andreas, this is Hans again. This is perfectly in line with what we had planned. We're progressing with the respective carve-out measures and should be done with the carve-out sometime, I wanna say early second half of 2023.

Andreas Heine
Managing Director and Head of European Chemical Equity Research, Stifel

Thanks.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Now we have the last question from Rob Hales, Morningstar. Please go ahead.

Rob Hales
Senior Equity Analyst, Morningstar

Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking my question. Kind of a long-term question on the China Verbund, I guess. I'm assuming it'd take, you know, 8-10 years for it to be fully built, all the plants there. The benefit of the Verbund is integration. Does that mean, you know, up until that point, you'll be kind of a relatively high cost producer for the plants that are kind of operating in the first phases?

Martin Brudermüller
Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, BASF

I'm not really capturing what you mean. I mean, the Verbund has certainly now in the first step, a high infrastructure part that is always the burden when you do. Then you have the other phases which are actually very economic because you don't have to go for that part anymore, and you can benefit from utilization and infrastructure. This is also why the Verbund is always a long-term concept. We talk now about phase I and II, and I think the next generations will talk about 3, 4, 5, because there's a lot of space left. There's also expansion land, and we have clearly the intention to make that a container for future investments of China. I would say the further down you go and the bigger you make that, the more the benefit comes out of that. That was also important for us, that we are very happy actually taking the big infrastructure part into consideration that actually also in the first phase, our contribution is already a very strong one to the BASF Group. Given, I think the growth perspective, that is a fantastic opportunity for BASF Group.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Maybe, to add this, Rob, it will definitely not take 8-10 years to fill phase I and what may be decided as phase II.

Rob Hales
Senior Equity Analyst, Morningstar

Yeah.

Hans Engel
CFO, BASF

Of this new Verbund site. This will be much, much faster.

Rob Hales
Senior Equity Analyst, Morningstar

Okay. Thank you very much.

Stefanie Wettberg
SVP of Investor Relations, BASF

Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, this brings us to the end of our conference call. On October 26, we will present our Q3 results. Should you have any further questions at this time, please do not hesitate to contact a member of the BASF IR team. Thank you for joining us this morning.

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