Ladies and gentlemen, good morning and welcome to BASF's Q3 telephone press conference. We would like to make you aware that all participants are in the listener status. The conference is going to be recorded for reasons of documentation, and you can see it live on the internet under basf.com/pressconference. After the presentation, you have the possibility to ask your questions. If you want to ask a question, please press asterisk and one on your telephone. If you need help during the conference, please press asterisk and zero on your telephone. Now I will give the floor to Nina Schwab-Hautzinger, Head of Corporate Communications and Government Relations.
Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you very much for having dialed into our telephone press conference. Today we are going to present the financial figures of BASF Group for the third quarter 2024.
You will be speaking to the Chairman of the Board of Executive Directors, Markus Kamieth, and Dirk Elvermann, CFO of BASF. Before we start, let me give you a few points of housekeeping. We will be speaking German as a conference language and will offer a simultaneous interpretation into English. Please ask your questions in the language you're listening to the conference. If you ask your question in English, you will get an English answer, and in this case, the German-speaking participants will listen to a simultaneous translation, and now I'll give the floor to Markus Kamieth.
[Foreign language].
Good morning, everyone. Dirk and I are very pleased to welcome you to our press conference. We will provide you with details on third quarter figures and business development. A month ago, we presented BASF's new strategy, which received a lot of media coverage. Thank you very much for your interest and your reporting. Let's start with an overview of BASF Group's performance in the third quarter. Sales of EUR 15.7 billion matched the level of the prior year quarter. Volumes, excluding precious and base metals, increased by 7%. All segments achieved volume growth with the exception of Surface Technologies. Here, volumes in the Catalyst division declined, while the Coatings division recorded higher volumes. Prices were slightly positive, excluding precious and base metals. The pressure on sales prices does continue to ease. Currency headwinds dampened sales growth by 3%.
Negative currency effects were mainly related to the Argentine peso and the Brazilian real. EBITDA before special items improved by 5% and came in at EUR 1.6 billion. Positive earnings momentum in our core businesses, comprising the segments Chemicals, Materials, Industrial Solutions, and Nutrition and Care, was already visible in the first half of 2024. This continued in the third quarter, driven by higher volumes and higher margins. Considerably higher earnings in these BASF core businesses more than offset lower contributions from the standalone businesses in the third quarter of 2024. As explained when presenting our new strategy, the standalone businesses serve specific industries and operate more independently. They include Environmental Catalysts and Metal Solutions, Battery Materials, Coatings, and Agricultural Solutions. This is a snapshot of how the markets and our segments' volumes and specific margins developed in the third quarter.
In a slightly improving market environment for base chemicals, we achieved strong volume growth in the Chemicals segment. The Petrochemicals division increased specific margins, while margins in the Intermediates division remained stable. EBITDA before special items in the Chemicals segment increased considerably compared with the prior year quarter. In an overall stable market environment, the Materials segment benefited from slightly higher volumes, particularly in the MDI, propylene oxide, and ammonia value chains. The considerable increase in specific margins was largely driven by a few product lines in the Monomers division. This led to a significant increase in the segments' EBITDA before special items. The Industrial Solutions segments operated in an overall stable market environment. Both divisions achieved significant volume growth and improved specific margins slightly. In particular, this was driven by our businesses with the fuel and lubricants, coatings, and semiconductor industries. EBITDA before special items rose considerably.
The market environment for the Nutrition and Care segment remained favorable. Here, we increased volumes thanks to the Care Chemicals division, which recorded higher sales to both the home and personal care markets. Specific margins improved strongly in both divisions, and the segments' EBITDA before special items increased considerably compared with the prior year quarter. Global automotive production in the third quarter of 2024 declined by more than 5% compared with the prior year quarter. In this environment, volumes in the Surface Technologies segment declined due to lower volumes in the Catalyst division, while the Coatings division still recorded volume growth. The overall lower volumes could not be offset by higher specific margins in both divisions. Therefore, EBITDA before special items declined in the Surface Technologies segment. The market for Agricultural Solutions showed a heterogeneous picture in the third quarter of 2024.
On the one hand, low crop commodity prices and elevated financing costs impacted farmers' income and buying behavior. On the other hand, lower channel inventories in Europe and North America were supportive. In this environment, the Agricultural Solutions segment achieved strong volume growth, particularly in fungicides, seeds, and traits, as well as insecticides. However, considerably lower specific margins led to a decline in EBITDA before special items. These were partially due to lower prices, especially in South America. In addition, in the prior year quarter, there had been a positive one-time effect from an insurance payment. To better explain the earnings decline in BASF's Surface Technologies segment, I'd like to provide some additional information about the current challenges in the automotive industry. At the beginning of the year, we had assumed that global light vehicle production would be stable or decline slightly.
In fact, production was weaker than expected in the third quarter. We therefore revised our assumptions for light vehicle production in 2024 and now anticipate a global decline of up to 2.5% on account of lower production in Western Europe and North America. Production figures for heavy-duty vehicles in 2024 will likely recede by around 2% in 2024. Light vehicle production in Western Europe benefited from pent-up demand in 2023, which was supported by the backlog in orders and the replenishment of inventories. These one-off effects have now faded. In North America, the automotive industry is burdened by a lack of demand and rising inventories. The industry is postponing and canceling new models. Despite trade and subsidies, domestic demand in China is weak, and the market for combustion engines is declining.
However, Chinese exports continue to increase, and China is therefore likely to see slight growth in automotive production in 2024. Overall, the current momentum points towards a more challenging outlook for automotive production in the fourth quarter. The factors I have described led to the following developments in EBITDA before special items compared with the prior year quarter. Earnings in the core businesses, i.e., Chemicals, Materials, Industrial Solutions, and Nutrition and Care, increased strongly and more than offset considerably lower contributions from the standalone businesses in the Surface Technologies and Agricultural Solutions segments. Lower earnings were also recorded in Other. Overall, EBITDA before special items increased by EUR 77 million . I'd now like to highlight the structural measures in Materials that contributed to the growth in EBITDA before special items in this segment.
In February 2023 already, we announced several measures to adjust the production structures at the Ludwigshafen site to improve competitiveness and restore profitability. These measures contribute to our cost savings programs for BASF Group and are primarily being implemented in the Monomers division. As shown here, the structural adjustments are related to the polyamide and ammonia value chains as well as TDI. Thanks to the decisive measures, we have already achieved around EUR 150 million in fixed cost savings in the Monomers division. The related one-time costs since the start of implementation amount to around EUR 160 million as of September 30th, 2024. We will swiftly implement the outstanding measures. These include the full closure of the adipic acid plant and the shutdown of the production plant for cyclododecanone and cyclopentanone that we announced in August 2024. The latter plant is part of the Intermediates division.
In all of our divisions, reviewing the competitiveness of our production assets is a continuous process and not a one-time activity. This is the basis for implementing measures to improve competitiveness or, in certain cases, deciding to shut down plants. With that, I hand over to Dirk.
Thank you and good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Let's now have a look at further financial details of the group for the third quarter of 2024. EBITDA before special items increased by 5% thanks to the considerably improved earnings of our core businesses. Overall, the EBITDA margin before special items increased from 9.8% to 10.3%. The EBITDA margin before special items in our core businesses improved by 3.6 percentage points compared with the prior year quarter. EBIT before special items amounted to EUR 635 million, representing an increase of EUR 59 million or 10% compared to the prior year quarter.
Special items amounted to minus EUR 385 million, more than half of which was related to Agricultural Solutions segment. This is primarily due to the planned closure of the glufosinate ammonium production and formulation facilities in Knapsack and Frankfurt, Germany, which we announced in July 2024. The remaining special charges were mainly related to group-wide restructuring measures, particularly in connection with the ongoing cost savings programs. Net income came in at EUR 287 million compared with minus EUR 249 million in the third quarter of 2023. In the third quarter of 2024, earnings were supported by the disposal gain of EUR 398 million resulting from the transfer of Wintershall Dea assets to Harbour Energy. In the prior year quarter, a lower earnings contribution from non-integral companies accounted for using the equity method, in particular, Wintershall Dea, had negatively impacted BASF's net income. Now, let's talk about the cash flow.
In the third quarter of 2024, cash flows from operating activities decreased by EUR 633 million to EUR 2.1 billion, mainly due to lower cash inflows from changes in the net working capital. During this quarter, changes in net working capital led to a cash inflow of EUR 487 million. This represented a decrease from the strong cash inflow of EUR 1.4 billion in the third quarter of 2023. Payments made for property, plant and equipment, and intangible assets rose by EUR 262 million to EUR 1.5 billion, particularly on account of the construction of the Verbund site in South China, which is progressing on time and in budget. Free cash flow amounted to EUR 569 million compared with EUR 1.5 billion in the third quarter of 2023.
Ladies and gentlemen, with regard to the implementation of our cost savings programs, I can reiterate we are on track to achieve the targeted EUR 2.1 billion annual cost savings by the end of 2026. The implementation of the cost savings programs announced in February 2023 is in full swing. As of the end of September 2024, we already achieved a cost reduction run rate of around EUR 800 million, which is associated with one-time costs of around EUR 500 million. By the end of this year, we now expect a cost reduction run rate of more than EUR 800 million, and the associated one-time costs are expected to amount to around EUR 550 million. We are also moving forward as planned with the additional cost savings program focused on improving our competitiveness in Ludwigshafen, which we launched in 2024.
In recent days, the units at the site have been informed about the contributions they are expected to deliver by the end of 2026. Before I hand back to Markus Kamieth, I would like to briefly outline changes regarding the publication of BASF's annual report. In 2022, the European Union adopted the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive, CSRD in short. Due to the extended sustainability reporting requirements under this directive, we will have two publication dates in the future. On February 28th of 2025, BASF will initially publish its unaudited results for the 2024 business year via an online report in combination with an investor and news release. As in the past, these documents will contain all important financial and non-financial figures for 2024, as well as the outlook for 2025. The documents will also form the basis for our analysts and press conferences on that day.
The audited BASF report 2024 will be published on March 21st, 2025. This integrated report will contain all legally required financial and ESG information. The report will be provided in the form of an online report and as a clickable PDF. A printed version will no longer be provided. And that's back to Markus.
In addition to those changes to our reporting, I'd like to provide you with some information on BASF's upcoming annual shareholders meeting. It's scheduled for May 2nd, 2025, and will be held as a virtual meeting. Since the end of the pandemic, we held two in-person annual shareholders meetings at the Congress Center Rosengarten in Mannheim. Now, for the first time, we'd like to hold an entirely virtual annual shareholders meeting in accordance with the legal requirements that have been enforced in Germany since July 2022.
This has been decided by the Board of Executive Directors in alignment with the Supervisory Board. Other DAX companies have had good experiences with this format, and we'd like to try out what works best for us. Let's now turn to the outlook. We are maintaining the outlook for 2024 as published in the BASF Report 2023 at the end of February. Based on current information, we expect to reach the low end of the EBITDA before special items forecast range for the full year 2024. Generally, the fourth quarter is more difficult to predict. However, due to the positive momentum in our core businesses in the third quarter of 2024, we remain confident despite the continued challenging economic environment and the more tactical buying behavior of customers towards year-end.
Compared to our expectations at the beginning of the year, business development in the automotive industry and the agricultural sector is weaker. This will continue to negatively impact our earnings development in the Surface Technologies and Agricultural Solutions segments in the coming months. In the Agricultural Solutions segment, we have also been facing significant currency headwinds, which will impact the fourth quarter as well, particularly burdening our margins in Brazil and Argentina. Furthermore, as mentioned during the Capital Markets Day, we expect the force majeure in our Nutrition and Health division to impact EBITDA before special items by a low triple-digit million EUR amount in the second half of 2024. The impact in the third quarter was not yet pronounced, but we expect a bigger impact in the fourth quarter that will likely sum up to the indicated order of magnitude.
As always, we will provide our outlook for 2025 at the end of February. The coming year will also not be easy to predict, but by then, at least the U.S. elections will be behind us. What is certain is that we at BASF will execute our Winning Ways strategy with a clear focus on value creation and by taking a new direction on portfolio steering, capital allocation, and performance culture. Thank you for your attention. Dirk and I will now be glad to take your questions.
Yes, thank you very much. Now we will continue with the Q&A session. As always, you may register your questions by pressing asterisk and star and one on your telephone. Okay, the first questions are coming in. So we have, let me check. I think I have to switch to Q&A. Okay, let me start with Mr. Freytag from FAZ.
Yes, good morning.
Can you hear me?
Yes, we can hear you. Thank you very much.
Hello?
Yes, we can hear you, Mr. Freytag.
Okay, thank you. I'm sorry. I was confused just now. So a short question, Mr. Kamieth, you explicitly talked about the lower expectation for the automotive market. Can you maybe firstly tell us what share of BASF actually goes into the automotive industry market and what the lower expectations and the low electric vehicle development has as an effect on your business? And all investments, did you stop all investments? Do you continue investing? How do you see this business? Are you looking for a partner? Has anything developed there? Will you continue investing, or will you wait and see?
Well, thank you very much, Mr. Freytag. Very briefly on the automotive industry market. Yes, you saw it correctly.
Just now, the situation in the automotive industry is not very rosy. Particularly in the third quarter, we saw a weakening by 5% in the worldwide automotive industry production, and we expect this to not revive in the fourth quarter. Let me put it this way. The only market that this year, or the only bigger market that will grow this year is Asia, and China is seen as the biggest part here with a slight growth, but there too, the automotive industry is weaker than before. The reason for that is the increasing number of electrified vehicles, both hybrid and battery-operated cars. That's the only country where we see a positive growth trend. Outside of China, the electromobility is weakening, as you just said. On the Capital Markets Day, we already said that for the area of battery materials, our investment strategy has been revised.
Just now, the investment, which is outside of China or is expected to take place outside of China, is frozen to wait and see how the market is going to develop over the next one or two to three years and how our customers will develop. Further expansion plans that we had before are delayed for now. We also announced, for example, that significant investments like the backward integration for a nickel-cobalt complex in Indonesia, due to the changing market situation, will not be continued. The entire industry is recalibrating and trying to adjust to a changing market environment. That also goes for us, and we want to minimize risk for the time being, and we'll just wait and see how Europe and North America will continue to develop. On partnerships, well, a month ago, we announced potential partnerships.
We just said that we are open for partnerships in the value-adding chain just to mitigate the high technology risk that exists. So you shouldn't or couldn't, can't expect too many fast steps. But do you have a figure how big the share of your products in the automotive industry is? Well, it depends on what you include here, but typically, we say that is 15%-20% of the overall sales figure of BASF is somewhat connected with the automotive industry.
Okay, thank you very much.
Okay, let's continue with Ms. Wadewitz from Börsen-Zeitung. Good morning. Ms. Wadewitz, we cannot hear you.
Can you hear me now?
Yes, we can hear you now. Yes.
Okay. I have two questions. First, on the outlook and the volume growth, you were talking about a positive momentum in the core business.
Just now, also after the Capital Markets Day, you said that June and July were quite good, and August was unexpectedly weak. Does that mean that for September and October, there is a change of trend towards the more positive? And the second question for the CFO for Chemicals, you have an increase of EBITDA, but the cash flow is worse than in the previous year. Maybe you can comment on that. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much, Ms. Wadewitz. Maybe first of all, on your question to the Chemicals cash flow, maybe I can start with that, and then afterwards, Markus can take over on the outlook. For Chemicals, of course, with the free cash flow for this year, we have the high investment cost for the Verbund site in Zhanjiang. Here, Chemicals bears most of the, well, financial load, so to speak.
This is why we said right from the beginning that Chemicals this year, we see solid earnings for volumes, but in the first half, we had turnarounds and failures of peers. So that was a positive situation, and we continued the development also in the second half year. But of course, the cash flow is burdened by the investment. Also, with the working capital here too, we have to reduce our cash contribution a little bit, both upstream and downstream, by reducing inventories. We released cash flow, but we cannot repeat that this year. So the cash flow this year is a little lower for Chemicals. But that's not systemic. It will change once the high investment costs are covered, once we've got that behind us. Next year, we will, of course, be in the position to commission to ramp up the Zhanjiang site.
We will fill the inventories there, and that will put a strain on the cash flow, and it will normalize starting in 2026. Okay, briefly on my part regarding the evaluation of the outlook and the momentum. I think your observation is correct. In September, we were under the impression of a very weak August. We were surprised by the extent of the weakness, and I perceived among customers that August had a disappointing momentum. In September, we saw recovering, and in hindsight, August looks like a dent, so to say, and the momentum in September was positive. You could see this in all of our segments. For Q3, we see positive volume growth compared to the prior year, with the exception of Surface Technologies, and volume was quite significant.
Now, while we are still in October, but compared to the momentum, October is inconspicuous, and we see this momentum also for the future, and this is somewhat the basis for the outlook regarding Q4, regarding the core businesses.
Okay, let's continue. Mr. Fröndhoff, Handelsblatt. Hello, Mr. Fröndhoff.
Hello, good morning. I have a general question regarding the economic situation in the chemical industry, what you think about it, not only regarding BASF, but also for the rest of the year and the beginning of the new year. Well, we expect that certain things have to be postponed, and do you think that in Q1 in the global chemical businesses, not a lot will happen? What do you think about this? And regarding the development in China, maybe you could give us your current opinion on that.
The economic situation of the chemical industry, if you look at the data that were published, which we would more or less confirm, you see that chemical growth globally and in most of the regions is slightly ahead of the figures regarding GDP and general industrial activities. A typical indicator here is that it can be positive on the whole because chemical or basic productions are an early indicator, so to say. The situation of the chemical industry is slightly ahead of the overall economic situation, I would say, but looking from the regional point of view, it's quite diverse as the global economy challenging situation in Western Europe in particular. At a low level, but still stably growing market in the U.S. and in China regarding volumes, we see a positive development as well.
So, in 2024, we see growth rates in the chemical market in China higher single-digit percentage figures. Unfortunately, in China, this doesn't mean major contributions to our earnings because in many product lines, we have major overcapacities, and most markets in China are quite long. But volume growth in China as such is positive. What about the situation in 2025? It's hard to tell because nowhere in the world economy and thus in the chemical industry, we see clear growth impulses in many industries. We will probably see a revival, but there are a lot of uncertainties which remain, starting with the U.S. elections towards geopolitical issues, and the outlook for 2025 from today's point of view is quite difficult.
We think the scenario we outlined in the strategy, i.e., successive and moderate recovery of most of the industries, including the chemical industry. This is the base scenario, and then we have to wait and see what will happen at the beginning of 2025. More news in February.
Okay, next question, Mr. Burger.
Hello. Good morning, and thank you for giving me this opportunity. Mr. Kamieth, maybe from your point of view, you could tell us something. If you were to turn to the federal government, which measures are the most urgent ones in order to revive the shrinking economy? What would you tell them? And secondly, your view on the drastic savings intentions by Volkswagen in Germany. They probably want to close three plants. And to put it in perspective, do you expect similar steps in the automotive industry or in the heavy industry?
What are the tensions regarding the employees, or what could this mean to BASF if we look at the savings planned by Volkswagen?
Regarding your last item, I don't want to make a statement regarding Volkswagen, and I think there are no official statements, at least not up until yesterday when I watched the news. Everything I read in the media is what you know. I don't know anymore, so no statement regarding VW. Germany in general and the German industry is in trouble. Everybody is aware of this. Everybody knows it. You know the data that were published for numerous reasons, and I do not want to turn this press call into a consultation list for the federal government.
But of course, we should be very much interested in seeing a certain momentum in the German industry, which is very important for the country as a whole. This is obvious, and I think everything is on the table. It starts with basic site factors, including energy costs, continues with bureaucracy, productivity, and many other issues along the lines of transformation that we want to go through as a society. And there are no one, two, or three issues or items that will rekindle the growth of the German industry. But of course, a certain kind of effectiveness on part of politicians is required here, and with a long-term view, the right measures have to be brought forward. This is what is required right now.
I have the impression I mentioned it several times that in recent months, there is more understanding in Berlin and Brussels that maintaining Europe's and Germany's industrial strength is higher up on the list of priorities. I appreciate this, and I'm quite confident that Germany will find its way here. This is something we definitely need, and I expect this from everybody who makes a public statement that we do not put our light under a bushel because I would like to include the media representatives in this, being not too pessimistic.
Now, Mr. Eckl-Dorna from Bloomberg, good morning.
Good morning. I hope you can hear me well. I can't. I have two very short questions for you. Maybe first of all, whether you can tell us more about China.
You already started mentioning that in the coming year, you will expect a one-digit increase in volume, not so much in sales. So I would be interested in what you plan for the rest of the year in China, what you expect there, and whether in the coming years, how do you evaluate the market there? Does it recover or not? And then I would like to get some more details on your outlook. You didn't tell us so much about it, but for 2025 on the whole, can you see generally what you expect, how the markets will develop, particularly the automotive industry? Thank you.
Maybe I can start China and then Dirk can continue with the outlook or not. Let's see. So the industrial development and momentum in China since the COVID-19 pandemic has clearly changed. A lot was discussed here.
I think China is a different country from what we had known before COVID, with different challenges. The industrial momentum in China has weakened, which could be expected, but in part found its reasons because of the consequences of the pandemic. So we see lower growth rates in most of the industries than were expected a few years ago, which means that in China and many value-adding chains' capacities were installed or were invested in that are not needed any longer. So the Chinese market, and that goes for the chemical industry, but also for other industries, will have to further adjust. But still, when it comes to China, I am optimistic on the medium and long term because the fundamental reasons for further economic growth stay in China.
And this is why in China, we continue believing that for the next years, including 2025, we will see growth in the chemical industry and the chemical market and in most other industries. And in China, we always have to have a very close look at where growth will take place. There will be lower growth rates in more saturated areas like Shanghai, Changshu, or Beijing, but stronger growth, for example, in the south or in the west of China. And that's exactly where we stay together with our customers, where we want to invest. So China is not a simple answer ever. In the fourth quarter, we still believe that the picture will stay stable for China, so volume growth, stronger industrial activity.
For 2025, that has to be seen and accepted, and you can see the reaction or non-reaction of a new U.S. administration will have an influence on how the export business will develop in China. And this is why I say it is still early times to look into the China crystal ball, so to speak. But maybe Dirk can talk about the outlook for 2025.
Okay, let me try that. First of all, the formal outlook for 2025 will be given in February 2025. But you have a better view on the capital market, where our business will develop. After the Capital Markets Day, we explained that both for our earnings development, but also for the cash flow. And I think that shows that all in all, we look upwards, both for the volume development.
Since the middle of the last year, quarter- over- quarter, we've seen a positive development, and also we see that the price pressure is decreasing slowly but surely. Of course, this is a general development, but we were talking about the economic development in the automotive industry and special items that we saw in Agricultural Solutions also play a role. For our core businesses, we expect or we are slightly confident for 2025 and 2026. But we have to do our homework, of course. You see that we have cost savings programs, which we strictly pursue, which is necessary, and it is necessary to develop in the difficult environment of Europe, but also in the other regions, and we will continue to be very disciplined with our capital.
Next year again, we will heavily invest in China to conclude the work there, and we will invest under the depreciation level there. So we do everything that we can do, which is in our power, to increase our competitiveness. And on that basis, we have a positive look at the year 2025 and beyond. And concrete figures will be given in February, as I said.
Okay, thank you.
Good. And then we can continue with Mr. Reitz of SWR. Good morning, Mr. Reitz.
Well, good morning. Hello, everybody, and thank you very much for the opportunity to ask questions. You reported that over the last days, you went into the units of Ludwigshafen site, and you talked about the savings. What was the reaction of the employees?
Maybe you can report on that because before there were reservations on the part of the employees because of these savings programs and measures, and secondly, can you tell us already whether further shutdowns of plants will happen, or are you not far enough in your decision-making process yet?
Okay, let me start. Of course, we haven't communicated only now. We have been communicating with our employees since February when we set up the last cost savings programs for Ludwigshafen with an additional EUR 1 billion of savings potential, and we communicate very openly with our employees. Of course, over the last month, we had to get more concrete on our measures, and we explicitly did so in many cases together with our employees because, I said so before, this EUR 1 billion did not contain all the measures for the entire year since February, so we have to develop here.
For EUR one billion of savings, we have to look into every corner. We have to turn around every stone. We had to activate all of our employees, or most of them. Over the last month, we were more concrete about our measures. A few weeks ago, and Dirk already mentioned that we went to all the units and we set targets there, establishing who has to make which contribution to the savings plan. That has to be implemented now in the units and has to be communicated to all employees. A few weeks ago, Katja Scharpwinkel and myself had a big town hall here at the Ludwigshafen site where we told all employees about our situation, where we stand in the process and which measures we are faced with.
And we also try to be very open about the difficulties, but also the opportunities for the Ludwigshafen site. And I believe I know that we got good feedback. So the employees know and like our transparency, even if we can't give them all the details, which position, which plant is affected, or which department is affected. So we go about this together on how we can save this billion euros, and we do that openly, and we are very serious about it. And I think employees have understood meanwhile that it is the correct way to steer the site into a situation that we want to achieve, namely that we want to be the strongest and most competitive chemical site in Europe, particularly against the background of green transformation. And we also want to make valuable contributions to the earnings of BASF Group.
Shutting down of plants, I think we're very transparent about that on the Capital Markets Day. All plants at Ludwigshafen were analyzed and tested according to their competitiveness, and we found that almost 80% of our plants that we operate in Ludwigshafen are competitive also for the next years. 20% are connected with risks. Some of them are already on the list. We've already seen them today, and we will now successively work down our way on this list. But you can expect that also over the next years, we will successively adjust capacities, but also plants that are part of these 20%. But we are not going to do that in a huge program or in one wave, but we will do it step by step and adjust the site on the motto's stronger but leaner. Thank you.
Okay, let's continue. Mr. Lismann, Rheinpfalz. Hello, Mr. Lismann.
Hello and good morning. I have three questions. First of all, the annual shareholders meeting, you plan a virtual annual shareholders meeting next year. What is the main reason to do this virtually? Secondly, the savings in Ludwigshafen. It was announced that the new savings program, you communicated the contributions that are required from the units, that this cost savings program will also mean redundancies. Can you give us figures on this regarding the Ludwigshafen site? And thirdly, what is your expectation regarding the economic summit that took place yesterday in the office of the Federal Chancellor, and what do you think will be the outcome, Mr. Kamieth?
Okay, let me stick to the order of your questions, Mr. Lismann. Annual shareholders meeting.
In recent years, we always observed this to the right and to the left, and we looked at the other DAX companies and listened to their experiences, what worked well, what didn't work well. There are some advantages regarding virtual annual shareholders meeting. First of all, it's cheaper to have a virtual annual shareholders meeting compared to an in-person annual shareholders meeting, and there are some things that are a little easier. But it's a completely different format, of course, and it was not an easy decision for us. But we said we want to give it a try because we have never organized a virtual annual shareholders meeting. Other companies have a very positive experience, and after the annual shareholders meeting 2025, we will decide whether it's okay for us or whether we return to an in-person format.
So this is not a basic decision forever, but we said we have to give it a try in order to be able to decide what is best for BASF and for our shareholders. Secondly, cost savings and the question about redundancies. Well, we decided, and in alignment with the Works Council in Ludwigshafen, we decided this that we do not want to go ahead with the whole program with a target figure regarding redundancies that we communicate here because then we would have the wrong focus. We want to improve the cost situation and competitiveness at the Ludwigshafen site, and the plan is to save another EUR 1 billion on top of the restructuring programs. Of course, there are certain assumptions that are the basis. What about the HR expense in these savings? Well, we don't know 100%. It may change.
To give you a concrete figure to the external community would not be favorable. We decided it should be EUR 1 billion fixed costs. This is the plan that we have at the moment. And of the 80%, there is a significant share that goes into HR expenses. So you will understand it's not a small figure, but we do not want to explicitly communicate the concrete figure for now. The economic summit or industrial summit that took place yesterday in Berlin, well, I don't want to comment on this. It was a confidential meeting, and it started on time. It finished on time. I don't want to comment on this any further. I think it makes sense to communicate with each other in a transparent and very open-minded way. So this exchange between government and industry and associations is important.
And if you can do this at top level in Germany, given the difficult situation, I think it's a good idea. That's it from me.
Okay, now Mr. Groß. Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung. Hello, Mr. Groß.
Hello and good morning. A certain uncertainty among the workforce in Ludwigshafen and all over the world is something we see, and the Works Council wants to have a Site Agreement as soon as possible. Maybe you can give us an idea about the timeline. Are you negotiating about an extension or a new version of the Site Agreement? And regarding communication towards the divisions, what kind of contribution they have to make regarding the cost savings program? So every division will be given a certain amount, and then it's up to the division how they implement this. Is this the correct way of interpreting this? And another question regarding the virtual annual shareholders meeting.
You have many, many small shareholders, and I don't think they will be very enthused about this plan, and you said you don't have any experience regarding the virtual annual shareholders meeting, but during COVID, BASF had a virtual annual shareholders meeting, so you should already know how good or how bad this is.
Thank you, Mr. Groß. Regarding the uncertainty among the workforce, of course, this is correct. In economically demanding and difficult times, there is a certain type of uncertainty that will always exist, and we have to handle this in a very open way, and our workforce is uncertain. That's a fact, and we try to reduce this uncertainty by reporting as openly and as transparently about what we are doing, so we have to accept this, and I think this doesn't go for BASF only, but for the society as a whole. Site Agreement.
This is a tradition in Ludwigshafen. Over a certain period of time, I think we have gone through seven consecutive Site Agreements. It has always worked quite well for us. Regarding the negotiations with the Works Council regarding the new Site Agreement, the existing one will end of next year. We have a positive attitude while saying that a Site Agreement as such is a good thing, and it did work in the past. However, I think negotiations maybe are just starting or will start soon. I don't think that we have started already, but we are not under any kind of time pressure here. We clearly say a Site A greement has to match the Ludwigshafen target picture that we developed in our strategy. This is my goal. This is where I'm heading, and this would be the starting point for the negotiations.
Timeline and arguments are on the table, and let's wait and see what the result will look like. But I think the future of the Ludwigshafen site is based on a positive view also on part of the workforce, and everyone understands that we cannot continue as in the past. This would not make any sense strategy-wise. I'm quite positive. I think we will have constructive negotiations, and for 2025, I expect a positive outcome. The virtual annual shareholders meeting, I have to correct you, of course, during COVID, there was a virtual format regarding such a meeting, but that was completely different from what you see today. If you remember, during COVID, I attended this meeting. There was no interactive format. Shareholders had to send in their questions days before the meeting, and then the answer was just read out. There was no kind of interaction.
Today, as I see it, in a virtual annual shareholders meeting, an interactive action is possible, so shareholders will be in a virtual room, but they can ask questions, they can make comments, and management or the administration also has to answer follow-up questions, and this is a format we have not done before, and if we look around, we saw a lot of positive experience, and it's hard to take such a basic decision. Not everybody will be pleased, of course, and in 2025, if we get a very negative feedback or the experience is negative, we may rethink it, and if we see a positive surprise, we will continue along these lines. Let's wait and see.
Okay, with this, we switch over to the English-speaking conference room. Andrew Noël from Chemical ESG. Hi, Andrew.
Hello. Hi. Thank you for taking my questions. The first one is on coatings.
The coatings industry is having a real moment right now, and by that, I refer to AkzoNobel, PPG, North American Architectural, and now BASF. Now that the cat is out the bag, so to speak, and I realize it's early days, but can you comment about sort of the level of interest that you've received so far? Because there has been some commentary among your peers about what you're selling. So I'm just interested to sort of understand how you feel at this very early stage and if you're getting different proposals and so on. And on that note, I know that Solenis has been a huge success for you, and before that was Styrolution. So is this two-stage exit really the front runner, the preferred option? Sorry, that was a long question.
The second, I kind of apologize really because it's probably something that's not on your minds particularly. So if you can help or if you do have some thoughts, it's on the 1B possible 1B classification on talc. I imagine that's something that you use widely in deco, in plastic stiffeners, auto cats, food packaging, and so on. So at this point in time, how do you handle a situation like that? Do you start reformulating already, or do you wait and see to see what happens? And I guess BASF with Engelhard had its sort of talc class action moment, so I imagine it's a sensitive area and you want to do right. That's it. Thank you.
So I will start with the question on coatings, and then Dirk can figure out whether you have an answer on talc because I don't.
Honestly, Andrew, I would not have an answer on this. It's not a, as you said, it's not a topic that's on my mind. Maybe Dirk can, while I answer on coatings, maybe you have an idea how to respond.
On coatings, there's actually no news, Andrew. I have to say, since it's only a month ago since we have announced the direction of travel for our coatings business, to no surprise, the immediate engagement into a process to divest our decorative paints business in Brazil with the Suvinil brand has sparked quite some interest. It's an asset that has been looked at for a long time as a possible portfolio move for BASF, so many people know the asset very well. So I would say all the usual suspects have indicated interest, my understanding. So no surprise there.
It is a highly sought-after asset because of its success, because of its unique brand and market position in Brazil, attractive and growing market. So overall, all things align, and this looks really good. On the other hand, the coatings business without the deco, so the rest of the division, too early to say and too early to comment. We just started the process, and we're getting into various different options. And I also don't want to now get into any kind of commentary or speculation on the type of constellations that we're looking at. I just want to refer back to what I said at the Capital Markets Day also. This is not about getting a deal done. This is not about getting rid of something. We have a fantastic coatings business.
It is both in terms of earnings as well as cash contribution, a pretty significant part of our portfolio and a successful part. So it's all about value creation, and so we will be very selective in looking at various options and to see what is the most value-optimizing constellation then for our shareholders. So too early to point you in a certain direction.
Yeah, I have a very short answer then to the talc question. I mean, we are aware there is a talc class action involving numerous parties. To the very best of my knowledge, Andrew, there is no involvement from our side, so that would already be the conclusion of my comment. So it's basically no comment because no involvement from our side. You alluded to Engelhard times. That is very much in the past, but currently, my best answer would be no involvement of BASF. Yeah.
Sorry if I get it wrong. I knew you weren't involved. It's just how, as a customer of talc, if you reformulated, but I realize it's early days, so thanks for trying.
Okay. Thanks. Yeah, we can follow up otherwise another time, Andrew. Okay. We have no further English questions, so now we switch back to the German room. That was it from us today. Thank you very much for your interest regarding BASF, and thank you for attending our press call. Of course, we are available for further questions afterwards. The figures for 2024 will be presented on 28 February 2025 at our annual press conference. We'd appreciate if as many of you as possible will come and join us in Ludwigshafen. Thank you very much and have a nice day.