The presentation is available for download in the Investor Relations section of the company's website. Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Mr. Max Schaber, CEO of DATAGROUP.
Good morning. I welcome you to our nine months investor conference. These are interesting times. DATAGROUP has reached a really significant increase in revenues. We went from EUR 214 million up to EUR 264 million from first nine months. And this is based on the acquisition of Portavis and also based on fully consolidation of UBL we bought last year. And also it is driven a bit by organic growth which is but also affected by a little decline of revenues based on COVID influences.
These figures are very positive, in my view, but we also have a couple of negative influences over the last months, over the last nine months. We have had an extraordinary loss in the field of financial services and some other little losses in other companies like Almato. We reported before of that, but that all comes together to lower EBITDA in total, EUR -6.8 million, against the nine-month period of last year. Let me explain a bit how it counts together. All in, we have had around EUR 11.6 million positive effect from the Portavis lucky buy. You can also call it bad will of the Portavis acquisition.
Nearly the same amount, which counts up to EUR 12 million, we did some provisions for effects we expect in the future out of these troubles we have with the starting of the big projects in the financial sector. These problems are based on different reasons. One reason is that we have had much more problems to start the projects to bring it into the operational phase, and we have had big delays. Some projects are delayed more than 12 months, and this affects a lot of costs going into these projects and no revenues out of these projects. That counts up, if we count it all together, to around minus a bit more than EUR 10 million in this period of nine months.
That we show only EUR -6.8 million is based on that other projects and other companies are going very well. At the beginning of this fiscal year, upcoming from March this year, we expected much more bad influence out of the COVID problem. But now we see clearer, we see more clear, and we see that COVID is only in very specific parts of our business, negative. For example, it is negative in our company, Almato. Almato has planned to grow its business very much, but COVID-based, we couldn't do such a sales efficiency that we had to take over lower revenues in this field, and we also had to reduce our expectations and our revenues and EBITDAs, and also EBITs out of this phase, out of this company.
Also, we have had some problems to grow the company, DATAGROUP Ulm, which was formerly the company IT-Informatik. Some of you will remember that we bought parts, assets of the IT-Informatik Ulm and formed a new company, DATAGROUP Ulm. We have been very successful in reorganizing this company, but at the moment COVID happened, we couldn't visit our customers, we couldn't visit the former customers from IT-Informatik, and therefore, it was nearly unable to fix contracts with the former customers of IT-Informatik, with the new company, DATAGROUP Ulm.
This cost us, let me say, between EUR 2 million and EUR 3 million, but we are very, very sure that we can do that in the future, and the company is on a positive EBIT and EBITDA, and we expect for the next year a much more positive revenue and a much more positive earnings in this company, and also EBIT and EBITDA. The temporary problems in DATAGROUP Ulm will go down in the next period, and we will continue with our process of building up a new profitable DG Ulm company. Let me bring it together. Three paths of problems.
First of all, and biggest one is SIS, which services the banking sector, but it is not the banking sector, the problem, but it is our own fault in this time, and the reason we think is in a bad regional management of this company. This causes we fired the Managing Director of this company, and we are fighting against him, and we hope that we can get some money. We are nearly sure that we can get some money from insurance companies. We have a directors and officers insurance, and we get some. We hope we can get some money back out of this. So these three effects bring our EBITDA and especially our EBIT and EPS down very much.
But we think at this point that we have fixed the problem, and we are working very hard on that to come again in a profitable phase in SIS. In the other companies, Almato and DATAGROUP Ulm, we are sure to increase EBITDA next year. Nearly, we nearly can double the EBITDA in Almato, and we also can increase EBITDA and EBIT in DATAGROUP Ulm massively. In SIS, we expect a longer period. Probably, it will need one and a half up to 2 years, and this is the reason we did that provision of EUR 12 million. At this point, we think that should be enough to reorganize the company, and that should be enough to cover the future smaller losses of this company.
I will come back to that a bit later, but up to now, this is the explanation of the figures we present to you at this moment. Let me go into selected profit and loss statement figures. We also have an increase. Revenues, I told before, we went up 23.5%. We also could grow our services turnover. And this, for example, is also a difference against Bechtle. Bechtle is growing mainly in hardware retailing, hardware dealing, but we grew in services, which always needs people. Therefore, we and also affected by COVID, we didn't have such a growth like hardware dealing companies. But as I explained before, our growth is coming from M&A activities, and this is part of the strategy.
DATAGROUP will hold on this strategy, and will do it also in future. If we look at some figures of our profit and loss statement, you can see that material and personnel expenses are grown very, very fast. This is also caused in transition themes. We had to invest a lot of hardware and a lot of system software, and also for sure by the consolidation of the new parts of the company. And that declines over proportional EBIT and EBITDA, EBT and EPS. If I look again at DATAGROUP Financial IT Services, what are the reasons in detail? So we have had these big transitions for the huge customers.
Delays, I explained before, and we have had out of that, much more expected time and headcount required for the transitions. This will be finished at end of this year, of this fiscal year, mainly so that we have only smaller work to do in the future, to really finish all these transitions. What the problem is for the future, we covered with this provisions of EUR 12 million. We have bad prices. In these few customers, only four contracts, these are, we have really bad prices, and we are negotiating at the moment with the new customers, to probably we can increase the prices a bit, probably we can do further additional services with these customers.
So we hope to increase the overall revenue with these customers, and also we hope to bring down the operational costs in this sector. What did we do when we realized that we have a big problem in this sector? After knowing exactly what happened there, we implemented a task force since April this year with two C-level guys from the DATAGROUP and some new people in FIS. We also implemented new managing directors, and we are, let me say, at the bottom of the swamp now. We have now sand and no swamp under our feet, and so we know nearly exactly what, first of all, where we stand, and second, what is to do, so we improved the cost structures.
This is an action which takes a bit of time. I think we are working on the cost structures this year, next year. We'll need, let me say, 18-24 months to bring all these cost structures down to a level we can earn money. We redesign all these business processes, and we monitor the development very closely by top management of the DATAGROUP SE. Also, I said it before, we try to renegotiate contracts in the form of terms and conditions with our customers. Okay, next is I explained it a bit before, our corona-related effects. These impact only small parts of DATAGROUP. All our market units are running at usual profitability.
Some of them are running better, some of them are running a bit lower than last year, but this is all much lower than we expected at beginning of corona, so that means that our strong customer base with these long-term contracts is able to deliver stable, recurring revenues with profit. Also, Almato, I explained before, was affected by postponing or abandoning projects by customers, and overall, new customer acquisition is impacted as meetings cannot be held, and customers are still busy managing their own COVID problems, rather than thinking of shifting IT service providers, but this will happen in the future. We see at the moment a bit of an increasing demand of new customers, of new interested companies for our services. Let us have a look on the balance sheet.
Balance sheet has grown from 30 September 2019 up to 30 June in 20.6%, up. It's going up. It went up to EUR 368.86 million . Where does it come from? It come from mainly the acquisition of Portavis, which brought in a lot of cash. It's more than 30 net 35 million cash pre-payment for pensions. And we also went up in our cash position from a sale-and-leaseback of plant equipment in the amount of 50 million. We have the long-term debt a bit increased, and also pension provisions and finance leases from Portavis brought our pension provision part up to EUR 68 million .
Out of these figures, it's quite clear that the equity ratio went a bit down. The equity ratio is still sufficient for our yeah for the covenants. We don't have a covenant breach yet at the moment and we are working on lowering the balance sheet, the sum of balance sheet, which will bring us to a sufficient equity ratio at the end of business year, and coverage the covenants are important at end of business year, end of a 12 six and 12 months period, so we don't have any breach now at the moment. Now, we come to a bit more positive parts of our nine-month reports.
We went up in our cash flow from investing in activities, which could bring that up in total more than EUR 50 million, 50 million. Last period, we have had a minus from EUR 29.8 million, and this period we have had a positive cash flow of EUR 20.8 million, which went up together EUR 50 million. This comes from the acquisition of Portavis, which was a net position of EUR 35.5 million, and we also had some other positive effects in this period which count up to, in total, more than EUR 50 million. But also our operating cash flow from operating activities went up.
We could make around EUR 7 million better in the first nine months nineteen twenty, and this is a very good sign to see that the operating cash flow, which shows the financial stability of the company, that it is positive. So far, to the figures, let me tell you some other positive effects, some other positive aspects. We got some very positive awards and first of all, we awarded a Gold status at the Service Provider Summit 2020 as a gold-rated managed service provider. This was based on the vote of 20,000 readers of Vogel IT-Medien. We also got an award for the best solutions and service offerings.
This media is Vogel IT has a lot of IT magazines and such like DataCenter-Insider, eGovernment Computing, BigData-Insider, and so on. You can see it in our presentation. So far, our my report of the first nine months, you can imagine that I am not convinced about these figures in total, but we are working very strong. We have identified the problems in this company, FIS. We have we have done some financial buffer to cover that in the next two years, and we expect for the next years, a much better EBITDA. Also, a constant rising revenue overall, and we also expect a quite good earnings, EBIT, and so on.
We are positive, very positive about the future, for the future, and we promise you that the whole management and the whole company is working very hard to go back to the rates we have had in the past. Thank you for that, and now the stage is open for your questions.
Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question, please press nine and star on your telephone keypad. If you would like to withdraw your question, press nine and star a second time. I repeat, please press nine and star now to ask a question. The first question is from Gustav Froberg from Berenberg.
Hi, everyone. Thank you very much for taking my questions this morning. I just have one actually. Max, I was wondering if you could help me understand a little bit better how you see the development in your operating cash flow, and also your CapEx needs developing for the next eight quarters, but then also maybe into 2020 - your fiscal 2021 as well. What can we expect on the operating and investing cash flow side?
Hi, Gustav. We are working very hard on this figures, operating cash flow. What can we expect in the future? We reduced our investment in hardware and in software very much, so that we expect a much lower investment in this sector. I think we will go down without Portavis. We cannot see Portavis exactly now at the moment, but the former SE, we try to go down to lower than EUR 15 million over the whole year. And we also try to use all these investments we did in financial sector, in our financial specific data center. This is not completely used now.
We use only 60% at the moment, and this free capacity will help us to bring the investments in the machines and software very much down. All other investments, like in buildings and office related stuff, will be nearly null next year. We decided to reduce our program to have new office buildings down to nearly null. There are some little money we give out for long projects we developed in the past. For example, DATAGROUP Mainz will go into a new office, but we also reduce the investment in this office down 50% down.
So we are working at all these figures, at all these parameters, very hard, and we expect to go down lower than EUR 15 million, without Portavis. Let's see, we can say in three months more what we want to spend in Portavis.
Thank you. And just maybe, a follow-up on the operating cash flow. Do you see any need for your working capital intensity to increase? Or, can we rather expect the opposite development, that some of your working capital requirements were reduced?
You can expect the opposite development. We don't see any bigger investments in ongoing projects or stuff like that. The opposite is these big amortizations and depreciations will bring us a lot of cash in the future.
Super. Thank you very much, Max.
Okay.
The next question is from Knut Woller of Baader Bank.
Yeah, hello, and thanks for taking my questions. I would have four in case I just do it one by one and then address everything. So, Max, can you give us some update on the provisions that you took in the FIS sector? Is it for potential contract penalties, since in the contracts, it's built in to go live in a certain period of time? Or, can you give us some more color on the-
Yeah
... on the provisions of the EUR 12 million you took, please?
Yeah.
That would be the first question.
Uh-huh. Okay. Hi, Knut. Good morning, and thanks for your questions. We put now an amount of EUR 12 million into our nine-month figures, which is a kind of provision, and we will decide exactly at the 12-month figures how we will use it. For example, it can be some money for restructuring the company, for firing people. We might have to pay some money to get rid of them. We also have some covering some losses of the future, which is not so easy to do it, that it affects also in tax-wise. So that might give a drawdown of some positions in the balance sheet, in the P&L.
For example, we have a so-called tanker, which is over the next period of the contracts. And probably we take that out in cost of the expectation that we cannot earn that in the future. So it is a mix of positions we have here, but in total, it should be enough for the time of the expected reorganization of the company.
Okay, thank you. And the second one would be on your midterm EBIT margin targets. You were talking about-
Yeah
... the FIS sector potentially still taking, 18-
Yeah
... to 24 months, and I mean, we are approaching the end of your business year, so you still expect more than 9% EBIT margin. It looks a bit challenging to achieve that from my perspective-
Yeah
... given that FIS is pretty, pretty large in your operations.
Yeah.
Can you give us an update on this target, whether it's maybe pushed out by one or two years?
Okay, good. It is clear that we cannot hold this 9% EBIT target for this year. But what we do expect is that all our operating companies are moving over 10%. For example, we have many companies which are now two, three, four years in, within the company, within DATAGROUP, and all of them are increasing their EBIT margins. Now is the big question, why in total, EBIT margins went down? One reason is surely this FIS debacle, yeah? But what we are doing also, we have invested a lot of money in the holding to organize and reorganize our factories.
We also have done a lot of work which causes costs in reorganizing and centralizing, for example, HR. All our HR development departments we centralized and we are centralizing, and this will bring costs at the moment money, but it will bring better EBIT margins in the future. This, in total, is surely affected by FIS. FIS will bring us some losses over the next twenty-four months, I explained before. And this effect will surely reduce the overall EBIT margin. But we think we can shut that down. In total, we can give, at the moment, not really a clear figure, what we wanna do in end of this fiscal year and, for example, also for next year.
At that time, we might want to give you exact figures as every year with the annual shareholders meeting. We expect to have beginning of March next year. Then we see much clearer, but you can be sure that we are in the main operating companies. We reached our margin target of more than 10%, and even if we grow the whole business in total, the effect of holding costs will be lower because we,
Distribute.
We distribute it over more revenues overall.
Just a clarification, Max, the 10%, is EBIT or EBITDA? The margin, the 10%.
10% EBIT, EBIT.
EBIT, okay.
In parts of the company, we reach more than 20% EBITDA.
Okay. That's clear.
So that means that the operational part of the business is very good running. Yeah? We have no fear for the future in this part. We have this effect, this main effect, at the moment, yeah.
Okay, understood. And on the gross margins side, that would be my third question.
Yeah.
The gross margin declines. I think since now, it looks like it's going to be a third year of a decline from the peak of 71.2%, despite a more favorable revenue mix. So the share of the trade business was lower than last year in the first nine months. Still, the gross margin
Yeah
... is substantially down. Is that reflecting... I mean, I would assume that it implies some margin pressure in service and maintenance. Is that related to the FIS segment, where you highlighted some contracts at non-favorable terms? And is that what you expect them to be turned around due to the restructuring in that segment?
Let me explain. The reason for that is that we bought with the fast expansion of our business volume, we bought also companies which buy many services from other vendors. For example, we have in FIS a huge amount of so-called freelancers, very expensive freelancers, and this bring down our gross margin. And we are working on reducing this amount of freelancer spendings very much. And this will bring us in a better relation in the future. And also, we have had to buy some hardware equipment which we lease and we rent to our customers, and this has also a big effect.
So it will be a temporary effect that the gross margin is going down, because our strategy is, as it was in the past, to deliver mainly all services by ourselves. For example, with the Portavis deal, at the moment of the closing, we bought, let me say, more than EUR 5 million; it's nearly EUR 6 million from Diebold Nixdorf concern, and we bring that down immediately, nearly to null, and to do it by ourselves, but that needs time. It needs, let me say, twelve months. We have a total contracted period of eighteen months to phase these services down to null. And so that means that the gross margin will come up again.
... Excellent. And the last question would be on the cash flow. You had some tailwinds from pensions quarter over quarter. So it was, I think, a bit more than EUR 5 million, which helped the operating cash flow, and there was also a nice swing in from trade payables and other liabilities where I had some problems to-
Yeah.
to track that from an outside perspective, looking at your balance sheets, development.
Yeah.
So can you give us some insight on the pensions, what drove that? And then on the sequential improvement of the trade payables and other liabilities? That would be the last one. Thank you.
Okay, Knut, one second. I'm looking around, my financial department is sitting with me here. [Foreign language]
Exactly, [Foreign language].
[Foreign language]
Pensions.
[Foreign language] Okay. Good. Knut, this is a quite difficult question we are discussing. [Foreign language] we don't have any tailwind from pension, really, because there was, it was in the last period, but not yet. In opposite we have, we have had some negative effects, so we expect some negative effects because the interest rate, which is the base, the basis of the calculation, by the insurance specialists, by these pension specialists. It went down. And always if it goes down, we have to bring more in into our balance sheet. Yeah?
And so probably we can answer this question at the end of our session now. My specialists are working it out at the moment.
Thank you, and that's absolutely fine. It's also fine if you would hand it over a bit later.
Yeah.
The payables and other liabilities swing from the second quarter to the third. It was, I think, roughly EUR 11 million.
Yeah.
What caused that?
Okay, let's answer this question also, either at the end or we come-
Okay.
We come through with it. Yeah?
That's fine. Thank you.
Good.
The next question is from Andreas Wolf of Warburg Research.
Hi, it's Andreas Wolf, Warburg Research. Hi, everyone.
Hi, good morning.
I have two or three questions, basically. So the first one is also on the pension liabilities. I know that in the past, you kind of outsourced the management of the pension liabilities.
Yeah.
Do you have similar intentions following the recent acquisitions you made and the pension-
Yeah
liabilities that you got?
Okay.
So that would be my first question. The one-
Can we, can we do it?
Yeah, okay.
Excuse me, can we do it like we did before?
Sure
... one by one?
Sure.
Okay. This is a very interesting question, and it's a kind of hobby for me to think about reducing this problem out of our balance sheet. We did something in the past, and it works quite good. We brought out an amount of around EUR 30 million with the Baden-Württembergische Landesbank, and it's working quite well. We brought the money and the obligations out, and now we got some more pension liabilities with Portavis, which is a big amount, around EUR 30 million.
And we are thinking to bring that out in the future, but this is not really easy, because the possibility on the other hand side to earn such a in detail, we need-
Return.
That such a return we need over the time, and therefore we have to be very careful which way we go. But there are ideas. There is a project right now. We try to bring out these pensions, but we cannot inform you over exact details now, because there is nothing underwritten.
Okay. The second would be, yeah, basically on the fifth contract that you had. With the provisions that you've made, what are the implications of future profitability of this contract? Will the provisions plus the restructuring that you are going to undertake lead you to a profitability of this contract, which is equal to group level, or will it be break even? How shall we think of that?
Yeah, yeah.
So with the comments you made before, I would assume that you probably aim for a certain level of profitability, but some insight here would be helpful.
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we have to first of all take a look on these big four contracts, and they are quite different. All one of them is in a positive way to get profitable, but some of them will bring losses, which are going down. Yeah. We are aiming to bring all contracts in total, not every contract for its alone or itself, but in total we are aiming to have them together with cost things with reducing personnel the staff at the company, and also having better conditions in hardware and services we buy.
So, we are hoping to be in a minimum null situation at the end of twenty-four months. And from that time on, we are working to get to make these contracts profitable. You have to realize that such contract is living over the time. And these contracts are starting with an amount of services we do for the customer, and if we are able, and there we are on a very good way to have a satisfied customership, we can do more for the customer. And so therefore, we are developing the customer over the time to a profitable to a good profit level in these contracts, but this needs time.
The conclusion out of this is that we don't want to make these big contracts in the future. We have had implemented a system that every deal which is bigger than EUR 1 million a year, and EUR 5 million total contract value, has to be approved by the C-level, by the full board. And we are looking very exact and very keen at the calculation of these contracts. The reason why they are underwater is easily that they are calculated wrong. The former management calculated wrong, and they, the structure of DATAGROUP is that the managing directors of the units make their own decisions, and that it cannot cause. Again, we implemented this new system now.
Oh, okay. Thank you. You've basically already answered my third question, which would have been, what measures you've implemented to avoid similar issues in the future? But I think,
Yeah.
The shareholders, and you're the biggest of them, can be more optimistic now that,
Yeah
... similar issues will be avoided in the future.
Yeah. We don't expect issues like this in the future. You never can avoid all issues, sure.
Sure.
You can imagine how bad it is for me personally. Yeah. How it's incredible, and I'm very, very angry, and I do all what I can to avoid this in future and to repair it.
Okay, great. Thank you.
Thank you.
The next question is from Lukas Spang of Junolyst.
Yes. Hi, Mr. Schaber.
Hi.
Thank you for taking my question. So, then I would also ask them one by one, if this is okay for you?
Yeah. Sure.
At the beginning of your presentation, you told us about a little bit organic growth in the nine-month period.
Yeah.
Can you quantify this statement?
Yeah, it's around 1%.
Okay.
In the main companies, we developed it before. We explained it the years before.
Which companies are not included in this number?
Without Almato, which I explained, it was 3%. Yeah, organic growth.
Okay. Then,
The so-called parent company.
Yeah. Yeah, okay. And then on Almato, you wrote in your report that you had delays and also cancellations at Almato. Can you give us some details on this? For example, how much projects were affected by this?
I can give you not exact figures, because we don't do that in detail, but I can say that we have reached only 40% of the budget in terms of EBIT and EBITDA, and we lost a few million . We did not get a few million planned revenues. So-
Okay, then-
But what is the reason? This is the question behind. The reason is that this market has a bit of a change in the way it works. Many of these big Anglo and American suppliers of the software such as NICE and
UiPath.
And UiPath-
Automation.
And Automation Anywhere, they changed their delivery and business model in the way that they don't sell their software over partners anymore in the future, and this cost us, let me say, this cost us a lot of revenue and also a lot of margin. And we have now to rethink our revenue model in Almato, which was put together from mobile solution and the Almato. And Almato is going really bad at the moment, but it comes back to a better profitability. The mobile solutions is running very well. So probably we, when we lost now around 50%-60% of our budget figures in terms of EBIT, we expect to get some 25%-50% more in the next period.
So it's getting much better now, and we think we can leave the valley behind us in this case.
Okay, and then one financial question on your leasing cash flow. Normally this number is negative, but yours is positive after nine months. What is behind this positive number?
Which cash flow you mean?
Leasing.
Leasing cash flow?
Cash flow from leasing, yes.
Okay. So I look around at my table. Okay. There is one thing. We sold some computers in our data center to a leasing company, and we got in around EUR 13.5 million-EUR 14 million from this deal, and so we have to pay rent for this, but we got cash in.
Okay. So from next fiscal year onwards, this number should be negative again?
We don't plan this figure exactly. So I cannot answer your question. There might be some influences. There might be another deal like that, because we want to reduce the working capital in this region. We want to capitalize our assets as much as it is sensible, and the leasing rates are at the moment so low that we say, "Okay, cash is better to have in than to let it be invested in the data centers.
Hmm, okay. Good, thanks.
Good.
If you would like to ask a question, please press nine and star now on your telephone keypad. The next question is from Tobias Reitz, private investor.
Hello?
Hello.
Hello, Mr. Schaber. Thank you for taking my question. I have two questions.
Yeah.
My first question is, in the last conference, you said that the clients are restrained. Has this changed in the last three months, or during the last three months?
Yeah, yeah, it's getting better at the moment. We are seeing a better in ask in, and
Demand.
A better demand at the moment, and we are expecting some better sales over the next twelve months, but nobody can say it exactly. If there is another wave of COVID, it can go down. We cannot see it, but our basic business is so substantial, and all our recurring revenues are growing in themselves. Like I explained before, at the FIS contracts, it is growing over the time. The customer is adding demand to. And we try to do that all. And we also are working very hard to avoid them, to expand or to increase our offering in terms of products of our CORBOX product suite.
For example, we added just some CORBOX services for cloud integration, for hybrid cloud solutions. You might have seen that we bought a 24% stake of Clouditeer, which is a consulting firm in the cloud, in the public cloud sector, and this helps us to get a very good know-how in this sector, and it helps us to get new customers and new projects in this scene.
Mm-hmm. Thank you. And my second question is on the purchase of the financial IT services you made.
Yeah.
What will you expect in the future? Because it's a complete new business segment, which costs margin, right, at the moment.
Yeah.
How big is the expected share of new business you can acquire? Will there be new contracts, new clients?
Yeah. Yeah.
What's the reason why you get into the banking sector?
Yeah. The reason is that we thought that we can make good contracts in this sector, and there is a big demand, and this is unchanged. The problem at FIS is not a sector problem.
Mm-hmm.
For example, Portavis has run much better than we expected, so it is possible to earn money in this sector, and it's not a sector problem, it's a specific management and organizational problem in FIS we want to change and we want to fix.
Mm-hmm
... in the future. So we think that we can make over time similar margins. We do probably a bit lower, but not much lower. And the reason for this opinion is that the consolidation in banking in the banking sector requires IT and digitization. This is a trend we see. What we see is that we have to learn that banks are very demanding. Very demanding, and our organization has to learn to deal with this demanding way a customer is with its supplier.
We also have to develop a clearer project phase and a clearer customer responsible person, which is dealing better conditions and terms for us.
Mm-hmm. Okay.
This is the way we have to learn here.
Mm-hmm. Okay. Thank you for your explanations.
Thank you. Okay.
The next question-
So-
... from Knut Woller of Baader Bank.
Yep. Yep.
Just one follow-up. When you provide the data on the cash flow, could I also ask you with an update regarding the PPA, if that's possible?
Yes, sure.
Just, I didn't find it in the presentation. That's just a wish from my side. That's it.
Sure.
Thank you.
Sure, we do that. And we will come up in the following,
Yeah.
We don't answer it now. We come up,
Yeah, no worries. That's, that's fine.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Okay.
Yes, Knut, we will revert to your question following the call. You have been asking about the increase in accounts payable.
The swing in the cash flow from trade payables and other liabilities. When I looked at the balance sheet-
Ah
... I couldn't see the eleven million swing you saw from Q2, that was still negative, and it turned into a tailwind, almost the same magnitude, and I couldn't-
Yeah
... figure it out of the balance sheet.
Mm-hmm.
Position.
Okay. The back office is working on it, and we will revert-
Yeah
... to that, by email after the call.
Yeah. Perfect.
That's fine. Thank you.
Thank you, Knut.
There are currently no further questions in the queue.
Okay. So let me say a last word. Am I online?
Yes.
Good.
Yes.
So, thanks a lot for joining our session, and I hope I could give you some information about this tricky situation at the moment. But we are sure, management is sure that we can turn around in the near future with positive information and positive news. I hope you can stay with DATAGROUP. We are proud to have such good investors, and let me say, personally, I'm the biggest shareholder, and I will stay in DATAGROUP for the future. I'm sure that we can get back to our incredible increasing situations. Thank you, and bye-bye to the next session.