Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the CTS Eventim annual financial report 2024. At this time, all participants have been placed on a listen-only mode. The floor will be open for questions following the presentation. Let me now turn the floor over to your host, Marco Haeckermann. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Welcome to the CTS Eventim fiscal year 2024 earnings call. Today you have Holger Hohrein, Group CFO, and myself, Marco Haeckermann, on the call. Holger will now talk you through the presentation of the last fiscal year, and after that, we're happy to take your questions. Without further ado, I hand over to Holger.
Thank you, Marco. One welcome also from my end, and let's start right away with our key takeaways for 2024. We have seen a strong industry momentum remaining, resulting in strong double-digit growth, both for revenues and EBITDA. This results in a dividend proposal for EUR 1.66 per share. Drivers for this strong performance in 2024 were all elements of our value chain: ticketing, live entertainment, and venue management. We have also added two new members to the family in 2024. We have acquired See Tickets in summer last year and have started consolidating those entities in June. We have finally started consolidating France Billet in December 2024, with a majority share now of 65%. We have a positive outlook for further growth in 2025, despite all the macroeconomic and political challenges around the globe. We come to this point then later in the presentation.
Now, a brief look at some of our KPIs. Revenues went up by 19.1% in 2024, adjusted EBITDA even by almost 22%. EBIT went up by only 9.5% year-on-year. Why only 9.5%? We will explain in a minute. Online tickets went up almost 25%, and this is all without See Tickets numbers, and we come to this point later throughout the presentation also. Tickets outside Germany went up 29.2% year-on-year, and the growth in ticketing was even stronger in international markets. Again, this number is still without See Tickets, and we'll explain in a minute. Record dividend, as already mentioned, we proposed to the general shareholders' meetings a dividend of EUR 1.66 per share. This is a record dividend, and we continue our dividend policy of 50% of our reported group net profit. This results in a long-term CAGR of 18% for our dividend.
Let's now look briefly at some group numbers. Here on this slide, you see on the left-hand side, you see revenues, adjusted EBITDA, and margin, and EBIT. We see revenue went up by 19% year-on-year. This, again, as already said, driven by all elements of our value chain, by all segments. Adjusted EBITDA went even higher at 22% versus previous year, which resulted in an increase in EBITDA margin of 19.3%, which is even higher than in previous two years, which were already strong years after the corona pandemic. As already mentioned, EBIT only went up only by 9% or 9.5% to be precise. The reason for this is the number of non-recurring effects we had last year, so in 2023, which were adjusted in the adjusted EBITDA, but obviously not in the EBIT.
You might remember those effects resulted from the compensation of the car toll project, which was settled then in summer 2023, which rounded off roughly EUR 40 million. I think another EUR 9 million-EUR 10 million were still some corona-related compensations. Let's now have a closer look at the fourth quarter specifically. Here on the next page, again, revenues and adjusted EBITDA and margin. The fourth quarter was a record quarter, both in terms of revenues and adjusted EBITDA, was the highest quarterly numbers ever. Revenue went up 29% year-on-year, and adjusted EBITDA even 40% year-on-year. Again, driven by our segments, but especially driven by ticketing business in the fourth quarter. We come to this in a second. EBITDA margin stood at 28.1% in the fourth quarter. Now let's jump in both our segments, and we start with ticketing.
Here on this slide, again, you can see a very strong Q4. Overall, we ended the last year with revenues of EUR 880 million, and EUR 315 million of which already in alone in the last quarter, after EUR 258 million in the previous year's quarter, fourth quarter. This strong growth results from growth from business in Germany and international markets. Adjusted EBITDA came out at EUR 470 million for the entire year, with EUR 176 million alone for the fourth quarter. Again, highest number ever we had in the fourth quarter. The driver behind, obviously, is the number of tickets, which we'll see here on the next slide. On the left-hand side, you can see the ticket number, number of online tickets quarter by quarter. In the fourth quarter, you can see year-on-year, the number went up by 27%. We came out at 36 million online tickets.
On the right-hand side, you see the distribution across the region. The share of international markets has further increased. We now made 64 or purchased or sold 64 million tickets in international markets, or 62% of overall online ticket number. Again, all numbers still without See Tickets, and I will explain why on the next page. With the acquisition of See Tickets in summer 2024, we strengthened our market position, especially in the U.K. and the U.S., and enhanced our product and service spectrum, especially in the partner business. Partner business means this business is also done online via webshops, but as opposed to own channels, here the partner branding is used. This is not event experience, but it is a partner branding. It is the partner's customer base, and typically this is what we also sometimes refer to as a white label business.
See Tickets are especially strong in this business. Our online ticket number, as reported before, did not comprise all of our tickets sold online so far. What was included in the past were all tickets sold online via our Eventim and own channels, Eventim and experience, but what was not included were the so-called partner business, which we also did in the past, but to a lesser extent. Now, with the acquisition of See Tickets, this share has obviously increased a lot. Going forward, we will now report tickets, and we will change the metric to retail tickets, and we will now report all tickets sold via Eventim and both through our own channels and via partner channels, the so-called partner business. Here on the right-hand side, you can see how this turns out in numbers. Starting point would be 2023.
You know, obviously, the number 30 millionor 83 million online tickets, which we have reported last year. As said, we already did so far also partner business. In total, according to the new metric, we would end up with slightly more than 100 million tickets in a new currency, so to say. In 2024, this translates, including See Tickets and including the partner business, which we did in the past already, results in 147 million retail tickets, which is now the currency going forward. We introduced a new metric, which you can find at the bottom of this page, which is gross transaction value or GTV. In 2023, we had a gross transaction value of EUR 5.6 billion, and in 2024, we came out with EUR 7.7 billion gross transaction value.
Gross transaction value basically means it's the ATP, the average ticket price, plus all our fees we earn when selling a ticket. Now, a brief look on our second segment, which is live entertainment. Here again, you can see revenues and adjusted EBITDA. Same picture, almost EUR 2 billion in revenues, strongest fourth quarter ever with EUR 477 million in revenues, 18% up year-on-year. The driver were especially the European live portfolio, but also venue business or venue operations played an important role. For the entire year, we came out with revenues more than EUR 100 million for our venues we operate. We operate quite a number of quite renowned venues, Waldbühne, Lanxess Arena, and a few others. We felt it's important to disclose a couple of important numbers for you to understand the importance of this business.
Adjusted EBITDA came out at EUR 126 million, EUR 44 million alone in the fourth quarter. Again, the strongest number ever in a fourth quarter. Here again, especially profitable were Germany and Italy. For the venue business, you can find here a number around EUR 50 million. It is actually slightly more than EUR 50 million profit we made in our venue operations business. It is not only a perfect addition to our value chain, but it is also a highly profitable business with an EBITDA margin of around 15%. Today, we not only publish our 2024 financials, but also our non-financial group reports in accordance with the CSRD, the Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive. Although there are some regulatory challenges right now in Germany, the implementation is still missing, still pending. In parallel, there are quite some discussions on the EU level regarding changes or reliefs.
Nonetheless, we have published the report on our webpage, and you'll find tons of information there. Please have a look and feel free to then ask also questions on this. We felt it interesting to come up with a couple of KPIs and maybe some things to mention, which could be interesting for you. This is overall greenhouse gas emission in 2024, which was around 1.4 million tons of carbon dioxide. On the left-hand side, you can see the split in the different scopes, scope 1, 2, 3. We have included here fan mobility as the most important factor within scope 3, which means this is traveling to and from the event of our visitors, which is the major block. In the second column, you see the split of those 1.4 million tons by segment.
Obviously, the largest portion is in live entertainment because the fan mobility obviously belongs to this segment. On the right-hand side, you can then also see additional numbers as greenhouse gas intensity. Just one number to remember would be 0.5 kg of carbon dioxide equivalent per EUR 1 of revenues, which is obviously a little bit higher in the live entertainment business and a little bit lower in the ticketing segment. If you wanted to break this down by other numbers or into other KPIs, you could physically translate this in around 60 kg per visitor or per fan, or less than 1 kg carbon dioxide per ticket, just so for example. Again, feel free to have a look at the report. I think it's quite interesting to read. This leads me with the outlook as the last page here in the presentation.
You can see we are or the outlook can be summarized in a few words. Outlook looks good for us despite all the challenges around us. We are looking positively in the future. We expect moderate higher revenues, EBITDA and EBIT for the group as a whole, as well as for ticketing segments. Given the high basis for live entertainment and the ongoing cost pressure in this segment, we are a little bit more conservative or cautious for the live entertainment business. We still expect higher revenues and EBITDA and results in this segment, but we are a little bit more cautious. We see them rather a little bit or closer to the previous year's level, let's say it this way. I think we gave you some indication of what moderate means in terms of numbers. Overall, we think this is a quite positive outlook.
That's for the moment. We can summarize again with key takeaways, but do not want to go through them again. Maybe we take this as a starting point for your questions.
Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would—sorry.
No, I'm good. I'm good.
Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, if you would like to ask a question now, please press nine and the star key on your telephone keypad. In case you wish to cancel your question, press three and the star key. Please press nine and the star key now to state your question. The first question goes to Gerhard Orgonas of Berenberg. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Hello. Just a question of understanding. In the online tickets for 2024, did you already include France Billet for December?
Yes, we did.
Okay. Perfect. Maybe an idea of—I do not know how much visibility for the full year, but in Q1, how the agenda is looking like. I have seen Lady Gaga is being sold probably in Q2 last year. We had Adele in Q1. Should we expect a slightly softer Q1 and then an improvement during the year? How do you see the developments during the year?
Yeah. You are right. Last year in February, we had AC/DC and Adele, two major on-sales. We have not had—I mean, we had many, many, many mid-size on-sales, but not one thing which spiked out. It is a more broad portfolio of mid-size and long-tail on-sales. It will be a good quarter, but nothing which spikes out as things last year.
Okay. Thank you.
The next question goes to Annick Maas of Bernstein. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon. My first question is, I think a few months ago when you announced the involvement in the Vienna Arena, that came somewhat as a surprise. My question is, I guess, a bit more strategic. Is your business model going forward to be much more focused on venues as well? Can we expect that you will ramp up venues and keep on building up venues in the near term? Or is the Vienna and the Milan Arena really one-off? My second question is on StubHub. I assume you've seen the filing for the IPO and their interest in also getting a bit more involved in the primary ticketing business. What are your first thoughts on this, and how can that impact you in Europe? My final question is, you've never really given us synergies for France Billet. You've now seen the business from the inside.
Is there a potential for maybe some extra synergies with relation to the France Billet deal? Thank you.
Yeah. Thanks for the question. I think I would start with the third question. Of course, there are synergies. And we acquired the first stake in France Billet back in 2019, I guess, October 2019, I think, with our 48% stake. And we have already started exploring some synergies, but now being in full control, having now the 65% majority ownership, of course, this gives room for additional opportunities. Yes, this will be the job for the next couple of months and maybe for the next one or two years. Yes, we see additional synergies there. For the first question regarding the venue business, to start with the bottom-line message, owning venues is not our primary objective.
We might not be the best owner for owning concrete and venues. When there are opportunities to develop venue, modern types of multi-purpose arenas, we are a good partner to be on the table to develop those opportunities and then eventually also to operate those venues. As shown with the numbers before, operating venues can be quite profitable and quite attractive and can be a perfect addition to our value chain. Owning the venues long-term is not our primary objective. Will there be additional opportunities? Yeah, maybe there might be a few, but it is definitely not a shift in our business model, but rather a completion to our business model. It will be all the selected opportunities whenever there are a few. I think for the second question, maybe Marco, you could go with this one.
Hi, Annick. It's Marco. StubHub, yeah. Finally, they put the S1 form out, so they're aiming for an IPO. I mean, you probably all had a chance to go through their P&L and see how marketing-intensive this secondary business is. With regards to, do we expect changes in our markets? First of all, I mean, secondary in Europe and most markets is quite regulated. In contrast to the U.S., where it hasn't been pretty much regulated for the last 20 years, we see even in the U.S., let's put it, much more regulatory creativity around this segment, yeah, because there are ongoing investigations into how the market works.
There's, for example, in the state of New York, the idea to provide mandatory transparency about so-called holdbacks, which means that, for example, if a primary ticketer has 100,000 tickets which they want to sell, and if they on purpose just make only 50,000 available, that they have to disclose this on their website, yeah, which has, of course, always been the secret sauce in the U.S. market for the last couple of years of what really fueled the secondary market, yeah. In the U.S., there's a much closer dependency between primary and secondary, which we don't have in Europe because, A, it's broadly regulated, B, because ticket prices are significantly lower.
People in Europe who buy a ticket on the primary market mostly attend the event and do not try to go for a financial bargain and try to resell it, which is why, yeah, as we are all friends in this industry, we wish them all the best, yeah, but we do not see any imminent risk coming for us on the horizon here. Plus, with the latest trends and technologies, I personally am very keen to see how businesses that are heavily dependent on major marketing spends will take the challenges in the future when we are about to see many more AI agents operating on behalf of the user or consumer behind them. It will be interesting to see. We are, of course, looking at what is happening there, but we still have a very good night's sleep about this IPO.
Okay. Thank you.
The next question goes to Olivier Calvet of UBS. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good afternoon. I just had a couple of questions left. First of all, on France Billet, could you give us some numbers on the France Billet business and the sort of synergies that you would expect or sort of your base case there? Maybe it is too early to say, but secondly, could you also talk a little bit about ticket prices, what they have done year to date in volumes in the retail tickets? And thirdly, could you discuss the DSP's efforts into superfan monetization? Are you seeing a share of events that is offered on Spotify or other platforms? Any color there would be appreciated.
Okay. Thank you. France Billet, synergies. I am a little bit hesitant to come up with a number here, with a concrete number, but yes, there are synergies. If you look at the EBITDA margin the business has today, and if we compare this with the overall EBITDA margin we have in this ticketing segment, then we see some room maybe in the range of 10 basis points or 10 percentage points compared to the segment average. Maybe as a specification. The second question, I was not sure if I got this correctly.
On ticket prices, asking for an indication. I mean, in the overall portfolio, the average ticket price is around EUR 55-EUR 60, yeah. Of course, being affected by our activities to widen basically the portfolio, yeah, further growing into other parts, yeah, and thereby broadening the mix of our overall inventory, if that is the answer you were looking for. The third question.
If I may, by the way, recently we published the GTV, the gross transaction value, and you'll find this also in our report. We had this on the slides, a couple of slides earlier. If you divide the gross transaction value by the number of tickets, retail tickets that come in the mid-50s, what Marco said, around EUR 55. We will continue reporting this number going forward. By the way, which was interesting, if you look at numbers from other places in the market being more strong in the US, you will find those numbers being more in the range of $100 or EUR 100. This indicates there is room for growth here in Europe as average ticket prices are still relatively low compared to other markets.
If we obviously have indicated this as part of our strategy, moving more in Northern America, then this also indicates that there is plenty of room for us to grow.
Yeah. Just to clarify, sorry, you mean you will publish this going forward on a quarterly basis? I was also wondering about the volume development you see year to date. If you could give a quick.
Yet again, we will report them with our Q1 numbers, not today. The GTV, we will report on a regular basis, yeah. Not sure if we will do it on a quarterly basis. I think we will, yeah. Yeah. We will see fluctuations, of course, because I do not know.
Because, I mean, when you look at ticketing, of course, where traditionally in the fourth quarter, you sell a relatively high share of higher ASPs tickets, this has, of course, a direct implication on the GTV, yeah? You should not expect that this is a very stable number and course over the quarters, particularly that, I mean, we have seasonalities in both of our business segments, and these would then affect, of course, the GTV on a quarterly or inter-year perspective.
You will only report if you promise not to ask why the average ticket price has increased by 5% or decreased by 10% quarter-on-quarter.
The third question was on superfan monetization, yeah? Yes. I mean, we see particularly music streaming platforms, of course, trying somehow always to get an angle and to inch closer to the artist, which, of course, I understand.
I mean, platforms like Spotify, they compete with platforms like YouTube who have a completely different product and service offering to help the artist monetize their art better. Like in the past, I mean, we cooperate with all of them because, I mean, one thing is what the streaming platforms advertise, yeah? On the other side is always the question of who holds the inventory, yeah? Because it's much more complex to actually sell a ticket rather than just letting people know that there is a band in town, yeah, and that they might want to go there. It's something which, of course, is interesting to follow, but is less of importance for us because we're in the ticketing business, yeah? Streaming platforms, I think it will be interesting to see how Spotify and YouTube will move along.
I mean, I think the latest royalty payout stats from YouTube have not been disclosed yet, but if we look over the last couple of years who gained tremendous momentum, meaning in who paid more out to artists, there is a very interesting development happening. As much for that. We continue to be partner. We can still say that this channel, yeah, is a channel that might sell one or the other ticket, but not to a meaningful extent from our perspective. This is not particular to us. You see this actually in all other markets as well with all other ticketing companies.
Okay. Thanks.
The next question goes to Andreas Riemann of ODDO BHF. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good afternoon. Two topics. One would be the mobile penetration. What is the share of mobile tickets right now? I guess it is still a low number. What can you do to increase that level? What might be the financial implications from a potentially higher mobile penetration? The second topic, the financial results. It was quite strong, actually, in 2024. In general, it is quite volatile over the last few years. What would be the best assumption for your financial result in 2025 or 2026 with the knowledge that you have today? That is it from my side.
Okay. I start with the first one. Mobile share, I think it is around 5%-7%, 6%, 7%, 8%. What would be your result if the share would increase? The benefit would be you would be on a mobile phone of the end customer, which gives you plenty of opportunities for further monetization. This is on the one-hand side of the benefit. Maybe Marco can add to this as well.
Yeah. I mean, of course, the fundamental shift would be the more you increase the mobile penetration, which would mean that we would get direct access to the actual ticket holder instead of just the ticket buyer who usually purchases, I don't know, two to three tickets. Plus, at that moment, we're really talking about a mobile ticket that ends up in your wallet or in our app, yeah? We create a direct link, of course, to that ticket holder, yeah, which helps you a lot on better customization, better offerings, and so forth, and maybe in the end, save a little bit of money on paper, which you don't have to print anymore for invoices or for the ticket itself, yeah? All in all, very important element.
Likewise, what we have seen 10 years ago when we were talking about increasing online penetration, it's really the bottleneck is not us rolling out the app or basically setting up the technical infrastructure. It's really about what the consumer is opting for, right? We still see that if you sell tickets for really top acts, that when people purchase two or three tickets and they are about to spend EUR 500 or more for these three tickets, that they appreciate still in our markets to have a piece of paper, which, I don't know, they could put at the fridge instead of having a little bit of digital imagery somewhere on the mobile phone, yeah? We are prepared as the consumer demands are pivoting into more convenience towards mobile ticketing. We have everything there, but we will get there.
Yeah, the question like which we had 10 years ago, is it worth investing more to drive online penetration? It will all come its own way, and then we take advantage of that.
Okay. Thanks. There was a question regarding the financial income, right? Financial income and financial expenses. Yeah. If you look, we have a breakdown of the financial income and expense on page 161. To a large extent, it consists of interest income, which accounts for roughly 50% of this. Here, you could take your cash position on balance, and you can observe interest rates in the market, and you can take some assumption what the interest expense or interest income would be on average, just by doing a simple calculation.
There are other components in the interest expense and interest income, which refer to a couple of options we hold or also to consolidation effects due to the full consolidation of France Billet, for instance. Prior to consolidation, you had to adjust the fair value of our 48% holding, which results in financial gain one second prior to full consolidating. There are more technical effects and also some other components relating to options we have, where we have the option or the call option or the potential seller has the option to have a put option to sellers' additional equity on already fully consolidated subsidiaries. Those are rather technical valuation effects. For your models, I would say a low or mid-size, double-digit size financial income would be a good estimate going forward, yeah?
Okay. Thanks.
The next question goes to Christoph Blieffert of BNP Paribas Exane. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, and thank you for taking my question. I have two pleas, one on scope and the other one on the U.S. Let's start with the scope question. Here, it would be helpful if you can give us some indication of what we can expect from the consolidation of France Billet and See Tickets for EBITDA in your ticketing division in 2025, please.
Yeah. I mean, we didn't plan to disclose a detailed number for individual subsidiaries, but as an indication, as both companies were not fully or were not consolidated for the entire year 2024. So France Billet was only consolidated for one month since the beginning of December. You could expect, let's say, rather between EUR 40 million in revenues and, let's say, EUR 10 million-EUR 15 million in just EBITDA or EBITDA. We don't plan any adjustments for EBITDA.
For See Tickets as a whole, we have consolidated in June, so it is seven months. The number for the full year would be rather maybe additional EUR 10 million adjusted EBITDA. Both together, I would say, from a full year effect coming from those two consolidations would be rather in the range EUR 20 million-EUR 25 million adjusted EBITDA if this was the number you were looking for.
This is helpful. Could you also give us some EBITDA figure for your Punto Ticket business?
Yeah. Actually, it is not our intention to disclose individual subsidiaries. It is somewhere between EUR 10 million and EUR 20 million.
Okay. We have some EUR 30 million-EUR 35 million full year consolidation effect coming from those three assets.
Chile and Peru we had already fully consolidated in 2024, as we acquired them in late 2023, end of November 2023. There is no additional consolidation or full year effect coming in 2025.
Okay. Good. The second question is on the U.S. My understanding is that you have put some resources in expanding your U.S. business. However, if I look on the revenue contribution coming from the U.S., the trend is rather flat, so some EUR 176 million. Could you give us an idea of what your growth plans in the U.S. are and why it is not growing or has not been grown in 2024?
Yeah. Here is Marco. I am taking the question. First of all, initially, we started, of course, with a couple of promoter joint ventures to participate in the touring business. With the acquisition of See Tickets, we have acquired a subsidiary of the target perimeter who is active in the U.S. ticketing space.
Of course, as you know, I mean, when you look at our traditional segments, you have a segment that contributes high revenue and another segment that contributes profits with live entertainment and ticketing. As what you've seen is that we, from the content standpoint, consider that we are very well positioned over there. The focus going forward will be much more on ticketing, yeah? This has nothing to do with a change of plan or our ambition, but of course, we could happily invest more on the content side, which is a relatively low-margin business, and we are doing this for proper profitability and economies of scale just from a pure strategic perspective, yeah?
Okay. Can you give us any indication whether your promoter business in the U.S. is EBITDA positive or negative?
It's a difficult business as it's highly competitive, and some of the tours or some of the shows are highly profitable. Others are actually loss-making. On average, it's rather flat.
Thanks a lot.
The next question goes to Craig Abbott of Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead.
Yes. Good afternoon. Actually, I have several questions, if you don't mind, please. First, just getting back to the venue business, it sounds like you don't have a major pipeline developing, which I think most of us would think is a good thing. I just wondered if you could give us an idea of how much capital you're willing to invest there and if you could give us an update on your search for a majority investor for the Milan Arena. I have a couple more questions, please.
Yeah. The search for investor Milan Arena is ongoing, and I think we discussed it in January. We are in the process of structuring this deal and finding the right investor. As said earlier, it is not our intention to hold those assets on our balance sheet for long term. Regarding the pipeline, I mean, there are always a couple of discussions, but there is no pipeline, and there is definitely no—this is not for us. It is not a pipeline business where we have 10 or 20 deals, which we are looking at, but it is rather opportunistic-driven.
Whenever there is an opportunity, then we engage in the discussion. It is definitely less than a handful. I would even go so far to say, except for Milan, which is currently under construction, and Ljubljana, where we are currently in negotiation of a partnership agreement, there is nothing concrete in the pipeline.
Good. In the future, would you more likely line up the majority investor in advance before the actual tender process?
I mean, sorry, it's Marco, Craig. Okay. I'm taking this one. As your calls, no. I mean, it's not for us that we are too keen on holding bricks and mortar on the balance sheet right away, yeah? As we've discussed in previous calls, around the world, you have mayors, you have cities who are looking for more modern infrastructure so that the next time when Taylor Swift is coming around, that they could have their interviews and their pictures taken together with them. Everyone fancies this new infrastructure.
Of course, in markets where we have strong content through our live entertainment business, we are always a preferred party to sit at the table to help designing the venue, yeah, with bits and pieces, and of course, ideally, to be the operator there because we have a very good position in order to make sure that, yeah, nights are sold and lots of food and beverage has been turned over, yeah? From that perspective, this is, I would say, where we could provide value. If someone is sitting as well at the table to say, "I would love to own this," we would probably not chase them off, right? In an ideal world, if you look at other developments globally, you have these various parties sitting at the table, yeah? Which is why, of course, our focus remains on operating these venues and not owning them.
The earlier we can optimize these kinds of capital allocations, the better it is.
Thank you. Next questions are on the mobile stage just following up from earlier. In the past, you talked about how your average take per ticket would actually probably be considerably higher than even just pure online ticket sales. I wondered if you could give us an update on how that average take looks. I was under the impression that the artists and promoters would more be driving the growth in that mobile share. Therefore, I am a little bit surprised it is not already higher if you could give us some color on that. Thanks. I have just a couple more real quick.
I mean, we have to distinguish here between whether someone is just purchasing an app, but it's still being delivered as a paper ticket, and whether we're really talking about a digital token that has been wired to someone's app or wallet, yeah? Where we have the case, what I've laid out earlier, that we have a direct connection to the actual ticket holder, yeah? Which then opens the door to better marketing and better personalization opportunities, which is, of course, always in favor of the promoter and the artist, yeah? On the other hand, like I said earlier, when you provide various options of how the fan can decide which mode of delivery or ticket mode they would appreciate, yeah? This is then still dependent about where they have the best consensus between convenience or whether they are mobile-savvy in the first place, yeah?
This is the element which will play out over time for us. Of course, if we have particular events that should only be sold as a mobile ticket, yeah? We will do this. This is, of course, much more a topic for top shows, yeah? Due to various aspects. The rest is, of course, much more dependent on which option appears mostly convenient for the fan and what they choose, yeah?
Okay. Thank you. Is your average take—okay. We can get into that later. Thank you. Yeah. On See Tickets, part of the deal which you took over this festival's portfolio, my understanding has been basically Garorock is quite profitable, but others are not. My impression would be you would be cleaning up this portfolio, maybe even choosing one or the other where you could leverage your flow, your tour flow to improve the offering. Could you maybe give us an update on what measures you're taking to improve the profitability on the festival side or the event side at See Tickets ? One more. Thank you.
I mean, we basically are in the middle of that process, yeah? We track performances. We look at to which extent there is a chance to turn one or the other format around, but there is definitely some adjustments to that portfolio ongoing, yeah?
Thank you. Just getting back on taking part of this, the audio was a little bit unclear, at least on my end earlier regarding the earlier question on Q1. You have some base effects. Correct me if I misunderstood it. My understanding was we should expect a rather modest growth of ticketing in Q1 due to the high base with the down and so forth. Then kind of like a normal year-on-year trend in Q2 and Q3 and a stronger end to Q4. In line with that answer, if you could kind of talk, give us some color at least on how your pipeline looks for the full year. Thank you.
The summary was quite perfect you gave. I think there is nothing to add. This is how we plan the year to be in ticketing. Regarding the pipeline, I mean, as you know, there is not much lead time for many things. Difficult to say what will be on sale in December this year, yeah? Difficult to say for me at least. I don't know if Marc has already more insights what's coming this summer.
I would love to know. I would love to know what's on sale in December.
It's hard to predict. The good thing is we sell overall in ticketing segment, we sell almost a million events. It's really the breadth of the portfolio which drives the business and drives the numbers, and it's not the individual show we are depending on.
Okay. Thank you. My very last question, please. I missed the first couple of minutes of call because I had to jump over from another call. I do apologize to everyone if you've already said this in the opening comments. I think you were referring to you had to give them some insights on what you understand on the moderate. If you did, if you could repeat that, I would be very grateful. Thank you.
Yeah. Moderate means in our terms internal increase of between 5%-15%. Of course, we want to—I mean, as usual, at the beginning of the year, we are a little bit more conservative regarding our guidance. Of course, we would love to see the EUR 3 billion in revenues end of the year and maybe the EUR 600 million in EBITDA end of the year, which is pretty much in line with the consensus, over the consensus. We do not have sleepless nights, yeah, looking at the current consensus.
Okay. That's all very helpful. Thank you very much.
Okay. Since we did not receive any further questions, let me hand back over to your host for some closing remarks.
Yes. Thank you very much for your time and all of your questions and joining us in on this year's conference call, earnings call. We wish you all a very pleasant and happy rest of the day. Speak to you soon. Bye.
Bye-bye.