Good morning, everyone, and welcome to our presentation of our preliminary Q3 2025 results. With us today are our CEO, Dietmar Siemssen, and our new CF`O, Wolf Lehmann, who will lead you through our Q3 development and the financials. The slide deck is available on our website. At the end of the presentation, we will be available for Q&As. Now, let's start and I hand over to Dietmar Siemssen. Dietmar?
Thank you, Guido, and welcome, everybody, and thank you for joining us for this call. You have all seen the news, and they are not positive. We, unfortunately, had to revise our guidance for 2025. Q3 came in lower than expected. The organic revenues were 1.2% below the previous year's quarter, and the adjusted EBITDA was 9.4% below. The adjusted EBITDA margin was 18.8%, and thus 1.7% lower than in the previous year's period. We won't be able to compensate this until the end of the year, even though we expect Q4 to be stronger than the third quarter. We did not expect this development. It is disappointing to say at least, and we clearly have to increase our measures to get back on track. We will, and also Wolf will elaborate on this later.
Our performance in the first nine months of this financial year is clearly below our expectations, and we can't sugarcoat this. There have been a number of markets, there have been a number of market influences, but the development in total is disappointing. On a reported basis, our revenues grew in the first nine months by 14.6%. Our EBITDA grew by 7.2%. Both increases due to the first-time consolidation of Bormioli Pharma. On an organic basis, however, revenues declined by 1.8% and adjusted EBITDA by 7.5% compared to the previous year's pro forma figures. We had expected an earlier market recovery of the cosmetic and also the oral liquid market. Instead, the weakness of the markets prevailed. Overall, our operative performance in Q3 lagged clearly behind. On a positive note, our focus on being more selective with CapEx is beginning to pay off.
We recorded positive free cash flow of EUR 21 million in the third quarter, and we expect a stronger fourth quarter in comparison to Q3 2025 with the ramp-up of new lines for drug delivery systems. The disappointing operative performance in the first nine months and Q3 in particular does not change the strategic rationale behind our growth investments or the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. We are still convinced that broadening our portfolio with new high-value solutions, particularly for the growing biologics market, has been the right strategic decision. The Bormioli Pharma acquisition brought Gerresheimer to a new level in terms of revenues and EBITDA and is strengthening our market position. It was also a prerequisite for building a strong molded glass powerhouse and being able to take the next steps to separate it and initiate a sales process afterwards.
Looking at the pure numbers, we understand we need to act, and we already have by initiating measures to reduce costs and improve our performance, as you can see from our restructuring costs in our third quarter report. We will leave no stone unturned to recover our margins and get back on a profitable growth path. With this, I will now hand over to our new CFO, Wolf Lehmann, for a closer look on our financials. Wolf?
Thank you, Dietmar. Following up on the revenue and EBITDA driver year- over- year on Q3 for more detail. We show the numbers in the prior year pro forma adjusted for the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. Numbers are not adjusted for FX. On revenue, left side, year- over- year, the anticipated market recovery after the first half in growth did not happen. Instead, net we're down $18 million from $579 million- $561 million, with a mixed picture between the segments. Plastics and Devices slightly up $3 million, and Primary Packaging Glass down $20 million. Let me turn to the segments. Within Plastics and Devices, net up $3 million is a mixed bag. Medical devices, we grew around $13 million, slower growth, and not as much as we would have liked, but at least initial growth in devices such as autoinjectors.
This is partly offset through plastics packaging down $5 million, driven by continued less oral liquid containment demand, and in addition, - $6 million from foreign exchange, mainly the unfavorable US dollar to euro exchange rates impacting our US business. On the Primary Packaging Glass segment, PPG side, revenue is down $20 million, mainly driven by around $13 million decline in molded glass, with again disappointing weak cosmetic and oral liquid markets. Also, around $2 million decline in tubular glass. Here, standard products are down, yet higher value products up. Finally, also negative around $5 million from foreign exchange, again mainly US dollar to euro exchange. On EBITDA in the middle chart, year- over- year, EBITDA is down $14 million from $117 million- $103 million. Now, EBITDA down $14 million on a revenue down $18 million obviously is a high unfavorable fall through. Let me explain the main drivers.
On Plastics and Devices, P&D, EBITDA is down $7 million, on sales up $3 million. Main impacts are medical devices did have growth in revenue up $13 million, as explained, but EBITDA is down $4 million, since especially our new assets, like at our Peachtree site in the U.S., are partly up, partly still in ramp-up, but underutilized or insufficiently loaded to cover all the additional costs as we invested ahead of demand. Plastics packaging is down $1 million year- over- year, which is simply less volume falling through. The rest is some impact from FX of around - $1 million. Turning to EBITDA Primary Packaging Glass, EBITDA is down $8 million, on sales down $20 million. Also in PPG, the sales to EBITDA fall through dynamics vary. Molded glass is down $9 million in EBITDA on $13 million less sales, a high fall through.
This is A, the volume effect, but also B, our site at Lohr, Germany, coming back into production after the significant furnace renewal and step-by-step gaining back productivity. Tubular glass shows a very different picture, as on lower sales, we get around $2 million higher EBITDA. Amongst others, our focus on high-value product growth comes through. On adjusted earnings per share on the right-hand side, this will be easier to follow, quite frankly, when we publish the full and final financials tomorrow, Friday morning. Still, already as a heads up, the decline from EUR 1.20 to EUR 0.77 adjusted EBITDA is negatively impacted by the EBITDA falling through after taxes to EPS, and in addition, higher depreciation and certainly higher interest expense, mainly stemming from the financing of the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. This explains the main drivers in third quarter. Very similar dynamics are impacting our nine months results year- over- year.
Please turn to the next page, page seven. Overall, revenue is down year- over- year by $47 million, EUR 178 million- EUR 181 million. EBITDA is down $27 million, EUR 341 million-EUR 314 million. Thus, overall, a high fall through of $27 million EBITDA versus $47 million revenue. In the interest of time, I'll focus on the fall through sales to EBITDA. Plastics and devices, similar to Q3, positive sales growth on the left of $50 million, yet a negative year-over-year EBITDA growth of $18 million. Medical devices with sales up $36 million, driven by our growth projects, example given in pens and autoinjectors, yet delivering no EBITDA growth, yet as new assets are still underutilized. Plastics packaging, sales down $12 million year- over- year due to the mentioned oral liquids market downside. This falling through to EBITDA with a high around $8 million impact.
These partly highly automated plants producing our high-value plastics packaging parts are sensitive to a suboptimal capacity loading level. On primary packaging glass, PPG, molded glass is as explained for third quarter. Mostly sales decline of $44 million from cosmetics, oral liquids, et cetera, falling through at a to be expected around $11 million EBITDA. Tubular glass, the sales decrease of $11 million does not show up in EBITDA, mostly due to less standard and more high-value growth focus like ready-to-fill vials. On the right, adjusted earnings per share. Similar, we can explain more on Friday, tomorrow, after providing the final and full financials. Some heads up again, as in Q3, EBITDA decline falls through after tax and impact from higher depreciation and interest, mainly driven by the Bormioli Pharma acquisition. In summary, before we talk guidance, two to three main issues.
One, more market decline and continued longer market softness with those expectations. Two, growth projects starting to deliver, but clearly slower, and this leads to three, suboptimal capacity utilization levels with new assets post or still in the middle of ramp-up, and similar, post-renewal of old assets like the glass furnace renewal mentioned. Those issues do clearly impact profitability levels. We first talk guidance on the next page, and then we share some thoughts on initiatives to deal with the issues. Guidance. Our revised guidance is clearly impacted by the much lower than expected Q3. The guidance is done on an organic growth level, meaning prior year pro forma, including Bormioli Pharma and normalized for foreign exchange. Our last or old guidance is from July. We estimated flat zero to 2% growth for the full year, around 20% margin, and a low double-digit decline adjusted EPS.
Thus, on the lower end, no growth, versus our $2.4 billion sales in 2024, or midpoint 1%, equal to around $24 million growth year- over- year. This was after delivering a first half of around $25 million decline year- over- year. Thus, we estimated and targeted against the midpoint offsetting $25 million year-over-year first half decline, with $50 million growth in the second half to yield net 1% growth for the full year midpoint. To yield the midpoint requiring both A, market demand recovering cosmetic on the glass side, oral liquids both on the glass and plastic side, and B, growth projects, new assets being loaded with demand quickly. Thus, midpoint, we expected round numbers $50 million second half growth, roughly half and half, $25 million Q3 year- over- year, and $25 million in Q4 year- over- year, to come out at the midpoint.
Now, we have one more quarter behind us, the third quarter, and in hindsight, we overestimated both the market recovery and also ramping up and loading our new asset with customer demand. Looking at Q3, Q3 did not bring around $25 million growth year- over- year, but rather close to $10 million decline year- over- year. Thus, round numbers, we are against the midpoint last guidance around $35 million behind, down $10 million versus expected up $25 million. Our last guidance on revenue takes the slower growth into consideration. The midpoint, or -3%, is around $70 million year-over-year decline. Half of this already happened, and the other portion we estimate in Q4, assuming very little recovery on the market side and growth projects delivering, but clearly slower.
Another triangulation we can provide is the midpoint, or -3% year- over- year on $2.4 billion sales, requires fourth quarter to come in around roughly $50 million higher versus the last quarter, versus Q3. Thus, around $50 million quarter-over-quarter growth. Again, this is assuming very little market recovery and slower progress on the growth projects, and maybe also a touch of more conservative planning, still to be seen. On adjusted EBITDA guidance, the first nine months, we are at 18.8% adjusted EBITDA margin. We are estimating to be around 18.5%- 19%, so very similar to the current profitability levels. On adjusted earnings per share, it is handing down the EBITDA guidance adjustment post-taxes to earnings per share, which gets us rather into the mid-double-digit decline versus low double-digit.
Before I turn to our latest initiatives to counteract some of the issues we face, please note that midterm guidance, we are not providing any new midterm guidance for 2026 and beyond, as we are still in the middle of our budget planning for next year, for 2026. Thus, it does not make sense to cover midterm guidance right now. Let's go to the next page, please, and cover leadership team changes to accelerate our initiatives. Starting from the right, Norbert Topp joined us in August. He is in charge of carving out the combined Molded Glass operations, Gerresheimer Legacy and Bormioli Pharma, integrating the two businesses and carving it out. Consequently, we would like to sell Molded Glass. Molded Glass will be a new segment within Gerresheimer. We take the opportunity and we plan to transfer to a new segmentation for the start of the new year.
Achim Scharret joins us in November and will play a vital role in this new segmentation. We just went through the financials still in the old segmentation, yet we know many of you brought forward to take the opportunity towards a revised segmentation. Thus, we're working on this for the start of our new year from 1st of December onwards. Finally, myself as new CFO, next to finance, I can help to accelerate our transformation, addressing key issues mentioned around growth, cost, as well as cash when explaining our financial results. In operational excellence, example given with focus, focuses on A, sourcing efficiently, where we rather have a decentralized approach currently, and B, cost of non-quality, where we still have quite some room against best in class. In commercial excellence, A, we drive price leader and segment the portfolio thoroughly by customer, product, region to improve profitability.
B, we chase volume to fill existing capacity to improve utilization. Preferring footprint consolidation, we drive a classic draw, fix, close, or sell approach. We also consider external help, both particularly in commercial and sourcing to start with. Timing-wise, this is not just a quarter or two. This will be a focus for us for the next two years at least to start with, to improve our run rate step by step. Organizationally, we implement a transformation office reporting to the CFO, myself, to have a focal point and board level and resolve bottlenecks. Also, we ensure to approach the highest paybacks first. Thank you. Back to Dietmar.
Yeah, thank you so much, Wolf. A rough start for you, but I think we are driving the right initiatives as we speak. Before we open our round for you or for your questions, let me summarize the key takeaways one more time. Q3 and the first nine months were clearly below our expectations. We expect a stronger Q4, in particular, due to ramp-ups of new production lines for drug delivery systems, yet this will not fully compensate for the development in the 2025 financial year to date. We therefore needed to revise our guidance and expect an organic revenue decline between -4% and -2% and an adjusted EBITDA margin around 18.5%- 19%. The adjusted earnings per share will decrease by a mid-double-digit percent.
We will have a new leadership team in place going forward with Wolf Lehmann as our new CFO and Achim Scharret as a new member of the Management Board starting November, as Norbert Topp now heads up the business unit Molded Glass and drives the separation forward. Starting with the 2026 financial year, we will implement a new segmentation with Molded Glass being a separate division. Most importantly, we take severe actions. We are now implementing a comprehensive transformation program with a Transformation Office driving all measures and reporting directly to the CFO. With this, I hand back to Guido.
Thank you very much, Wolf. Thank you very much, Dietmar. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press the blue Q&A button in the webcast and follow the instructions. You will see a confirmation that you have entered the queue. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press cancel. You may ask your question when your name is being announced and you are live. The first question comes from Ed Hall. Ed, the line is open.
By sort of any loss of market share to SGD Pharma, any dual source dynamics you see in the market, and how this would persist?
Ed, we haven't understood part of your question. Can you repeat that, please? The initial part. Thank you.
Sorry, can you hear that better now?
Yes, very good.
Perfect. Sorry about that. First question, could you quantify any loss of market share that you see to SGD Pharma or other competitors? Any dual source dynamics that are happening in the market and how this should persist into next year? Second question would be on what's caused the positive free cash flow from a weaker EBITDA. Is there any one-offs in here that have caused this? Finally, just on the margin guide, 18.5%- 19%, Q4 seasonably higher than Q3. I was wondering what's caused this range and what's the downside risks to EBITDA in Q4. Thank you.
Market share, I think we are pretty confident that the market is down at present, but there is no loss of market share neither to SGD or any other player.
Great. On cash flow, yes, the cash flow in the third quarter was positive, about EUR 21 million. There's no one-offs in there. This resulted in a leverage of 4.15. I think it's important to stress that we are fully compliant with our debt covenants. Referring guidance down, potential downside in the fourth quarter to EBITDA, I think that's why we provide the range. We feel comfortable in that range, as explained. EBITDA or EBITDA margin, as I mentioned, we are forecasting between 18.5%- 19% EBITDA for the full year. We are nine months into the game. We are at 18.8%. We're staying in that range. We're not forecasting a major improvement in profitability for the fourth quarter, but rather coming in around the same profitability levels. That range reflects either up or downside against those forecasts, okay?
No, that's very clear. Thank you. Maybe just going back to the third question. You're saying that you haven't seen any loss in market share, but I was just wondering if you could comment on the extent of which you see the market declining or staying at this sort of suppressed level.
Ed, you have to say that because you referred, for example, to SGD. The point is the areas where we actually lose at present is the cosmetic. Here we also do not see shifts in the market share. We see our clear competitors that, by the way, are not SGD in cosmetic, are having the same challenges, are facing the same challenges as we. The market is really down. We see in this area, if you want to see something positive, at least that the market is not going down further. It's a kind of stabilization at this moment, whereas the recovery that we've been waiting for in the second half of the year, obviously, is not visible before the beginning of 2026, as we see it at the moment. Because the pharma business is not so, it's not also molded, not so bad off.
It's primarily the, and you hear it again and again, it's the cosmetic and it's the oral liquids, the classic areas where you have this, cutting syrups, ibuprofen, and so on. As bad as it sounds, we are looking at the flu season now coming, and it's the first time I think in my life, I'm happy if I hear people cursing because that might push the sales a bit, and we see this more positive now.
Ed, if I may, first, if you run across your colleague Michael Hoffman, please tell him my best regards. I think I worked for many, many years with him. Secondly, back to cash flow, just in full transparency. Yes, EUR 21 million are positive cash flow, and there's no one-offs in there. Yes, but I think for us, quite frankly, you've seen our first half. It's too early to call in victory here. Cash rigor, CapEx rigor stays absolutely at the forefront for the business. Too early to call in victory again, and this still is still absolutely a focus in the fourth quarter, will be a focus for us for next year. Quite in simple terms, we just have to deliver more with less point, and that is absolutely a change that we're driving and we're laser-focused on.
Perfect. Thank you very much, both.
Okay, thank you very much, Ed. Next questioner is Olivier Calvet. Olivier, the line is open.
Hi, team. I hope you can hear me.
Yes.
Okay, cool. Yeah, both good to hear you again, but pretty tough timing for you. I have a couple of questions. Firstly, on the news flow two weeks ago, could you perhaps confirm that the bill and hold transactions that are subject to the current BaFin audit were at the customer request, and any further color on your stance relative to that audit timing to a resolution, perhaps, and any false narrative?
Sure, Olivier. Yeah, also, thank you. It's great to hear you again, Olivier. Now, referring to the BaFin audit, number one, look, we fully support the audit of the BaFin. In order to most effectively do this and understand, we would like to understand the rationale for the audit, and we have requested access to the files. This access has not been granted, nor do we have yet an answer whether and when the access will be granted. One topic, as you mentioned, of interest is bill and hold. Bill and hold follows strict rules and regulations to ensure accurate accounting. We are fully aware of those rules and regulations and believe we follow those also at year-end 2024. At year-end 2024, we accounted for a low double-digit euro million amount of bill and hold, or you're talking less than 2% of annual revenue.
Those are the facts, and we'll keep you up to date on any material developments, and we're working on putting a landing page up to facilitate communication.
That's helpful. Sorry, you said one topic. Is there others, or?
No, I think this is the topic that is currently I mentioned, right? We want to fully support the audit, and for us to do that most effectively, we would like to understand the rationale for this audit. As such, we have requested access to the files, and then we can understand it better. Yeah.
Okay, thanks. The second question would be on free cash flow in particular. Essentially, and maybe I missed the feel the prepared bits, but you're pointing towards the still pointing towards the - $100 million or so for this year, and also any thoughts on the required maintenance CapEx you have next year would be helpful as well.
All right, let me see whether I understood it correctly. Olivier, I think what I commented on based on Ed's question was the free cash flow in the third quarter. The free cash flow in the third quarter, and you will see it better tomorrow when we file the full financials, is around EUR 21 million free cash flow in the third quarter. You know that we were not positive full free cash flow in the first half of the year. That is positive. With closing the third quarter, we achieve a leverage of 4.15x , and my comment was 4.15, not 4.5x leverage. As such, we're fully compliant with all debt covenants. Nevertheless, what I mentioned to Ed also was it's too early to claim victory here.
We have to stay laser-focused on cash, and we are doing that, whether it's on CapEx rigor or whether it's just cash is absolutely at the forefront. On your question on base CapEx, gross CapEx, et cetera, this is now my sixth week in the company. I think roughly you're talking about annually about $100 million or so of base CapEx. I think point four will probably do a good job in explaining those differences in base, growth, et cetera, because again, we're absolutely focused.
Okay. Just on the free cash flow again for 2025, I think your predecessor was pointing towards a - $100 million also for full year 2025. You were at $121 million for the First Quarter.
I don't know at the top of my head, Olivier. It's a good question. Let me come back to that tomorrow.
Okay. Finally, just on the financial flexibility, there was a renegotiation of the acquisition debt right before you joined. Can you tell us more on how you're comfortable with covenant levels and so on, because obviously you're at elevated leverage levels?
Yeah. As I mentioned, Olivier, good question. As I mentioned, we closed the third quarter, and we have now a leverage of 4.15x . With that, we have the headroom that we need. We're fully compliant with our debt covenants.
All right, thank you.
Thank you, Olivier. The next questioner is Oliver Metzger from ODDO BHF. Oliver, your line is open.
Good morning.
Oliver, I think we lost you. Can you come back in, please? In order to not have to wait, next questioner is David Adlington from JP Morgan. David, the line is open.
Good morning, guys. Hello, can you hear me?
Yes.
Perfect. Great. Just coming back to the balance sheet again. I think the 4.15x is on historics. I think on our maths, you're closer to 4.5x with the new guidance. In terms of you mentioned in the presentation that the reset covenants you're happy with, maybe you could just disclose what those covenants are. Secondly, connected to that, with respect to the sale of Molded Glass, just wondered if you had any thoughts on potential timing there and how that will help you with your indebtedness. Thank you.
Thank you, David. I can only repeat again, yes, you're right. 4.15x is the current average ratio based on third quarter results. With that, we're fully compliant with our debt covenants. We haven't disclosed yet all the details around the latest covenants, but yes, due to the covenant reset, we have sufficient headroom and we're comfortable with that. Your second question was the molded glass. At the end of the day, the rationale for a separation of molded glass is that with the acquisition of Bormioli Pharma, we're bringing two parts of the business together: legacy Gerresheimer Glass as well as Bormioli Pharma Glass into one and separating that. We think that makes sense. We have a consolidated focus on the molded glass business, especially now under the new leadership of Norbert Topp. We take it from there. As you know, we're committed to the separation.
We also would like to sell the company, and we take it from there. The impact on leverage obviously depends on the sale price, and that would be speculation right now. We take it from there.
Thank you.
You're welcome.
Thank you, David. We are having Olivier back, you're live.
Thank you. Do you hear me now?
Yes, very good.
Okay, yeah, I hope it stays as it is. It's my mobile. Good morning from my side. Also, warm welcome to you, Wolf. Three questions I have. The first one is on molded glass, about the turnaround of EBITDA. Where are still the weaknesses in cosmetics and oral liquids? Is it really that you now look for the annualization of these headwinds, or do you see any fundamentals which could be better apart from the flu season? Second question, can you also give a brief update about the plastics and device dynamics? Lastly, how should we think about next year? I know it's too early to give a guidance right now, but some dynamics will spill over into 2026, which basically you know already. Taking the molded glass, how long do the headwinds last in your view? Thank you.
Yeah, it's a difficult discussion, but in the end, it comes back to the two topics we already mentioned. It's the oral liquid and the cosmetic. The cosmetic is for molded glass. That is the one that we work for you. To the positive, we see that there's further decline. We also want to highlight that the tunnel, but different than we expected, there's strong recovery in especially the fourth quarter. We believe that this will only take place in over the loop of 2026. For the oral liquid market, this hits both the molded glass side, the plastic bottles we deliver for coughing syrups, but it is also now affecting us in the area of former Bormioli Pharma, where we have the closures for this.
We see here also a stabilization of the market, also first indications that it might get better, and we are here more optimistic that the market comes back a bit earlier than in the area of the cosmetic. Honestly spoken, after the hitbacks I had to swallow here in the third and fourth quarter, I'm a bit conservative now on my expectation of recovery. Nevertheless, oral liquid will come back better. We have to see the flu season now, how it recovers. The cosmetic we have to see over the loop of 2026.
Yeah. Maybe, Olivier, I can add a little to it. Your question was how long will the headwind last? Okay, it's a good question. You know what we experienced in this year so far was that it took longer than we initially expected and it still continued. Quite frankly, taking a different approach now, we're not waiting. What we're now doing is, and that's what Dietmar and I tried to explain, we're not waiting for that recovery, and for that reason, we do a transformation. That transformation is also one-to-one also happening at Molded Glass, under the lead of Norbert Topp. We do the same rigor for Molded Glass, operational excellence, commercial excellence, cash rigor, the full program, and that will ultimately improve the results. A market recovery in our growth efforts will come on top or complement that.
Most importantly is now the focus is on complementing growth efforts with cost rigor, cash rigor, et cetera, full transformation, as explained.
Okay, great. Thank you very much.
Thank you, Olivier. As a reminder, if you wish to register for a question, please press the blue Q&A button in the webcast and follow the instruction. Next question is coming from Anna Snopkowski of KeyBank. Anna, the line is open.
Hi, can you hear me okay?
Yes, very good. Thank you.
Thanks for taking my question. Maybe just first on the biologics market, what percent of revenue in Q3 was biologics, and how did this market develop in the quarter? On the GLP-1 side, you've mentioned in the past the possibility of over $200 million in GLP-1s for the year. Do you still view this as a possibility? Would this mainly be on the medical device side? Lastly, just on capacity expansions, could we get an update there? Which sites are still ramping, and overall, what's the revenue-generating capacity in these sites? Thank you.
Yeah, I can take the first part. Actually, I do not know exactly for the quarter the share of the biologic, but maybe the answer of your question answers the following: the area where we are growing is all in the primarily in the large molecule biologic area. That probably also answers your question regarding the GLP-1. Key drivers of the growth are actually in the area of GLP-1. As you know, we have a wide portfolio of GLP-1, which goes in plastic containment, syringes, it's devices of various forms, pens, autoinjectors. That's actually the areas that are strongly growing. Thus, coming back to your question of do we believe that we can reach the $200 million in GLP-1 in 2025, my answer is yes. Yeah. When you see the slide, they're also in sub-areas. You see the tubular glass.
We are not growing in tubular glass third quarter at the moment, yeah, but we see the margin is getting better. Why is this? Bulk vials are under pressure in the volume. We clearly are growing into the value to fill high-value vials. That's biologics. The devices, that's in principle, all the growth in devices at present is biologics.
Perfect. Thank you so much. Just around the capacity expansions, maybe which sites are still ramping going into the fourth quarter?
That's right. We also have further capacity start-off productions that we will see in the fourth quarter that will also drive some of the positive things in the fourth quarter. That's what Wolf tried to explain. It will not be enough to compensate with the first three quarters, but the ramps up are ongoing. Not all will fully contribute in the fourth quarter. They will come steadily ramp up over the loop of 2026, but these things are ongoing. That affects syringes, yeah, especially here, the caterer facility, but it also affects pens in Europe and autoinjectors in the U.S. I think too, and Anna, too, the package we post for tomorrow's call, the final results also will provide an update on the latest bigger projects. Have a look at that too.
Okay, very helpful. Thank you.
Okay, thank you very much. As we have no more questions in the queue, we would end today's call and wish you a good day. Thank you very much.
Thank you.
Okay.