Christoph, I'd say we start now. Good morning, everybody. This is Ingo Middelmenne speaking. I'm the Head of IR of Ringmetall SE, and I'd like to welcome you to today's call. As you know, we published nine months figures this morning. Pretty good figures again. We're completely in range of our expectations. I'm happy to hand you over now to Christoph Petri, the CEO of Ringmetall.
Thank you, Ingo. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to our third quarter earnings call. Despite the current macroeconomic headwinds, Ringmetall delivered another outstanding result in Q3, and is well on track to beat last year's financial record year. While the pace of the increase has slowed down a bit, Ringmetall is still up 35% on revenues and 25% on EBITDA compared to prior year. Continued high raw material prices are pushing revenues up, while weakening consumer confidence leads to a softer demand in the chemical industry, and hence to a decrease in ring volumes in the second half of 2022. Our Industrial Packaging Liners and Industrial Handling business units could compensate part of this with impressive sales volumes.
Our EBITDA margin is slightly moving down towards our targeted range, partly due to pricing effects, but also due to mathematical effects from price falls. Let's turn to page three to give you a more insight into the growth plans of our business. Industrial Packaging is still heavily impacted by continued high raw material prices. Hence, the effect on the revenues through raw material price and energy price fall volumes stand for more than 22%. Our two latest acquisitions, HOSTO and Rhein-Plast, continue to contribute strongly to the success of the group. 18% increase in revenues is significantly ahead of the budgeted and last year's figures. The integration process is more or less completed. While volumes in Industrial Packaging Liners are continuing to be very strong, we see a sudden slowdown in ring volumes, especially in Europe in the third quarter.
The overall effect then is an organic decrease of 5.5% in the Industrial Packaging segment. At this point, I would like to remind that Ringmetall has shifted its end consumer focus in the past years, more towards the Food & Beverage and the pharmaceutical . This helps significantly to balance cyclical movements coming from the chemical industry. Our Industrial Handling segment continues to perform outstandingly well. We see an ongoing high demand, especially from the forklift industry across both our OEM and our own product set. Revenues are therefore up by 31%. The current order backlog proves that this trend seems to continue throughout this year and even into next year. Let's turn to page four for a more in-depth view on our two segments. Industrial Packaging is of course the main driver of our business.
Revenue in this segment is mostly driven by inflationary effects, up by 35%. While the Ring business faces negative volume development due to higher exposure in the chemical industry, the liner business delivered strong volume growth. Broken down into regions, we see a flat development in U.S. and China, and a sudden drop in volumes in Europe and especially in Germany. The increase in EBITDA is still an impressive 15%. This is mostly due to acquisition effects, but also volume and productivity effects in the Industrial Packaging Liner segment. The EBITDA margin normalized due to [mathematical] from raw material price changes, and has reached the upper end of our targeted range. In Industrial Handling, we have finally solved capacity issues which we were facing from sudden order increases in the first half of the year.
We see positive developments on both product groups, OEM supplies and own products, especially strapping systems. The profitability increased through the last quarter especially, however, the target range of 10%+ is not yet reached. Let's turn to page five for an outlook on the remainder of the year. Despite a very challenging business environment, especially in our core markets in Europe, we see ourselves well on track towards our uplifted guidance for the financial year. While we believe that the demand impact we are experiencing in the Ring business in the second half of the financial year is mostly related to the chemical industry deferring demand due to overstock inventories, Ringmetall is well prepared to navigate through this or any uncertain period.
Also, the strong performance of our Industrial Packaging Liners and Industrial Handling business units, and the vigorous order backlog in these two segments, makes us confident for the fourth quarter. The drop in volumes in the Ring business gives us the opportunity to fine-tune our own inventory levels and to improve our working capital situation. In respect of inflationary effects, especially through energy price increases, we are not only trying to forward these price increases to our customers, but also taking a number of steps to identify ways to reduce energy consumption, such as accelerating our shift to more efficient production equipment. These investments already proved to be the right step within our latest acquisition, Rhein-Plast, where we have taken a number of measures and modifications to improve efficiency. The results from this are well above our expectations.
From my side, thank you very much for your attention, and I would hand over to Ingo for the Q&A. You are on mute .
Mute as usual. Thank you. Thank you, Christoph. That's it with our short presentation on the nine- months figures. We're now coming to the Q&A. As usual, please just raise your hand if you want to ask the questions or unmute your end. Otherwise, you can also place a question in the chat, and I will read it for you. The first question today comes from [Klaus Brunner]. [Klaus Brunner], please go ahead.
[audio distortion].
You're still muted.
Can you hear me now?
Now I can hear you. Great.
Great. Good morning. Thanks for taking my question. You prefer English or German?
In English, please.
Okay, go ahead. All right. The first question that I have is, well, if I look at the nine-month figures, they look pretty good, and congratulations for that. The Q3 has some, well, not so perfect circumstances. For sales, I see about 14% increase, but EBITDA is about 15% down from last year. In your press release, you are saying this is due to changes in product mix and to price increases which were transferred to the customers margin-free. Could you please explain a bit more, A, on the changes in the product mix, what's behind that? And B, what margin-free means in this circumstance? Thank you.
Absolutely. I would start off with a comparison to the prior year to begin. Q3 2021 was an extraordinary quarter, and especially the July was extraordinary good in 2021. In 2022 we see that we were hit by the downturn, especially in August and September. This comes especially in the Ring business. Changes in product mix means especially that the Ring business is significantly down in Europe and Germany, not so much in the U.S., but overall, we see a downturn in the Ring business, while our Industrial Packaging Liners segment is up. If we look into the EBITDA margins, the EBITDA margin in the Ring business is higher than the EBITDA margin in the Industrial Packaging Liners business.
Therefore, we see a downturn in EBITDA, in the EBITDA margin, and in the EBITDA of Q3. This is the changes in the products. If we look into price forwardings margin-free, this means that usually with our customers, we have pricing mechanisms which allow us to forward certain price increases which we are facing to the customers. That is especially in the case in raw material, especially steel, but also nowadays in other inflationary issues like energy costs and freight costs. These are usually forwarded margin-free. The increases are forwarded margin-free to the customers. That's it, hopefully.
Great. [Mr. Brunner], are there any further questions from your side?
Yes, please. Just to clear that up. Margin-free in that case meant you were able to forward the price increases. It's just the EBITDA margin is down because of the changes in the product mix.
First answer, yes, absolutely, we were able to forward the price increases. What you have with price increases, you will have an increase on the top line. That's a mathematical effect that if you increase the top line, the margins below that will decrease. Well, actually, the margin, especially the EBITDA margin, will decrease because the total figure will remain the same. It's a mathematical issue. The second issue, yes, we see a change in product mix, and therefore margin is slightly coming down.
Okay, I got you. Thank you. Just one-
To put it in simple words here for everybody, again, basically the profit per ring stays the same no matter what the price per ring might be, given the circumstance that the raw material prices increase or decrease. We pass on these price effects without margin to the client, and what we earn per ring is always the same. Or depends on our internal profitability measures, enhancements. That's the effects that might change the profit per ring.
Thank you. Got you. Just one more question, if I may, on the issue of acquisitions, which you have been silent on. When we were talking last time at half year figures, you said you're focusing on the inliner business, particularly in Europe and U.S., but it is too expensive at the moment, you said more or less. Any update on that? Thank you.
Unfortunately, not really. We are in closer discussions and we are working heavily on that, but no breakthrough yet. Nothing more but discussions currently. We have a certain shortlist which we are focusing on now. Yes, that's basically the answer. Unfortunately, no real update. Also at least we haven't been out of any process, which means everything which we are touching currently or where we are in discussions is well on track, basically.
Thank you.
Great. Thank you. The next question will be Holger Steffen from SMC Research. Holger, please go ahead.
Hello, all together. I have only two additional questions. If your fourth quarter this year will match the results of Q3, you would reach the upper end of your guidance. It may be a little bit weaker, but is the lower end of the guidance still realistic? Or what may happen that you will reach the lower end of your guidance?
Well, it's difficult to really compare the quarters. Q4 is obviously impacted by December, which is usually in most regions where we are active, only a half month, basically. However, pretty much the same situation we have obviously in Q3 as well, where we have August as the holiday season. It's still valid. I mean, yes, as I mentioned, we are well on track towards the guidance. I don't wanna comment too much if we reach the upper end or the lower end or the midpoint. I would say currently we are well on track, maybe towards the midpoint, maybe slightly up.
What we have to realize as well, the situation, especially here in Germany, is tightening and maybe we have seen the weakest point already in September. Yes, that could be. We believe it is a certain destocking effect which we see with our customers. Everyone who knows us well, we try to be on the cautious side. There's no reason why we should tighten the guidance currently. There's no reason why we should do that. To comment on if we are coming up to the upper end or the mid-end, I don't wanna give too much thought on that.
Okay, no problem. Thank you. Maybe we can take a look at the next year. What will be the effects from the declining steel prices? Do you have a negative earnings effect from this? Do you expect at the moment a declining Ring business in 2023?
No. Currently, we don't expect that volumes continue to decrease. We believe that we will see maybe quite a flat first half of 2023. Flat means compared to the volumes which we currently have. However, we also believe that the second half of 2023 should see a certain rebound then. That's at least the expectation. Prices or price-wise, reduced steel prices obviously will impact our top line, will impact our margin positively. But it all depends on the timing effect. That means, when exactly do we have to reduce prices for the customers? That's according to the new mechanism then. I don't expect that next year will be an outstanding year. That's for sure.
The circumstances are not very well currently. On the other hand, I'm not afraid of next year either. I don't believe that the economy will drop another 10% or so. It's in our region, in the chemical industry especially, I don't see that currently. I have to say this, it all also depends, of course, on the environment, on the situation in Ukraine, and therefore, you most probably can expect a cautious guidance from us again.
Okay. Thank you very much for taking my questions.
Great. Thank you. The next questions will come from the chat. The first question comes from [Alexander Jagoda]. The first question was regarding the guidance. I think we just gave a pretty good answer on that one. The second one, I think we already gave an answer, but I'm gonna repeat that. Maybe you wanna elaborate a bit on that one, Christoph. The wording demand in the inliner product area, on the other hand, received a noticeable boost, showing double-digit percentage growth in the third quarter and compensating for significant parts of the decline in earnings in the Ring business. It does not really match with the organic sales growth of -5.5% for the whole segment. Does this mean that the clamping Ring business performed significantly worse, perhaps -10%?
Yeah. It is more than -10%. Definitely more. As I mentioned, we have seen a significant and very sudden drop in volumes. It was somehow a little bit foreseeable, but still, it hit us quite significantly. Volumes in the Ring business in Europe are down by more than, in parts or in certain areas, more than 20%. That's what we see, and that's what we are facing there. Volumes in the U.S., however, are still quite stable. We'll see most probably a slight decrease in Q4, not too much. What happens in the chemical industry is one very clear trend. The big chemical companies, doesn't matter who it is, but everyone who has the opportunity to shift production abroad is currently doing that.
That means what we lose, for example, in Germany or in Europe, we might be able to gain in the U.S. or in China. That's the effect what happens. Another effect what we see, the first effect is a fact. The second effect is a thesis from our side that we see a certain destocking effect in the chemical industry. They have huge inventories because they were all afraid of supply chain issues. Now they see their volumes dropping down, so the first thing they do, obviously, is reduce their inventory. That's an effect what we can clearly see. It will be a proof of concept in the first half of 2023 then, if we are right with thesis, but that's what we believe is the case.
Thank you. Question number three from Alex is: What is the current status of the intended sale of Industrial Handling? As this business is recovering strongly this year, would now not be a good time to sell it?
Yes. I think so as well. It would be a good timing. However, we also see. I wouldn't say it's a love-hate affair, but it's. We are very pleased with the current situation of the business and with the develop. We see still a lot of potential for improvement. However, I mentioned in the last call already that we have started the process and the process is running.
Great. Thanks. Question number four: What's the impact on revenue from decreasing raw material prices? Will revenues decrease accordingly?
Yes, they will decrease accordingly. The effect we will see already in Q4. That's the first time when we will see this, at least to a certain extent. Most probably then continuing into Q1 and Q2 of next year. That's at least the forecast we get from our suppliers and from the steel industry in general. Prices are dropping roughly 10%-15%, in some areas even 20%.
Great. Keep in mind please that these decreases will be passed on without margin as well, so margin should not suffer from that. Even contrary to that, to a suffering, fluctuating prices give us more of an opportunity to make wins in negotiation with the customers. Moving prices are always good for us. Only stable prices are, so to speak, not the perfect environment for us. The next questions come from Cansu Tatar from Warburg v ia the chat. Organic growth was -5.5% in the first nine months. Could you please share the figure for Q3 standalone?
No.
Basically, we don't share Q figures on these drivers, as those are very hard to calculate for us, but maybe you could give an idea where the figure would be.
Yes. I mean, I mentioned already in the first, maybe the question before. Volumes in Germany, for example, are down 20%, which is quite significant. In some other areas in Europe are down roughly between 15% and 20%, while the U.S. business is more or less stable in volume. That's quite a significant impact obviously. Partly it's we were able to compensate through our Industrial Packaging Liners segment, which is up double-digit in volumes. Obviously the Ring business is so much bigger that overall we are coming up to this -5%. In the half year, we were already at -1% as well.
Great. Thank you. I think the next questions were pretty much answered. Would you also please share your expectations for Q3? Do you expect a further deceleration or a similar organic sales development like in Q3? Basically, I think we highlighted that question well enough together with a glimpse on 2023. Furthermore, what was the impact of the change in steel prices on EBITDA in Q4? It's basically exactly the same thing. Please understand that these figures are intentionally given out on a nine-month basis. I think we do not have the figures on Q3 written in front of us, as these are very hard to calculate.
Of course, you can calculate the figures on H1 and on nine months and then subtract both figures, and you will get a close answer on that. Where do you see a sustainable margin level for 2023 if steel prices remain at current levels?
Well, the target range for Industrial Packaging is around 50%-60% EBITDA margin, and that's something that we have proven this year that it is absolutely understandable and sustainable. Therefore, on current prices, current steel prices, I'm pretty sure we would be able to have the same margin level. Now with slightly decreased steel prices, maybe margin goes up slightly, but the total profitability will stay the same most probably. That would be the expectation set as targets. What we will be able to accelerate is we have taken certain measures and investments, especially within Industrial Packaging Liners, to boost the EBITDA margin there and the profitability there.
Most of the effects we will see next year, because most of the machines actually will be installed and either by the end of this year or in the coming quarter one. Therefore, overall profitability in Industrial Packaging should be supported by that, even though the Ring business might struggle a little bit with the low volumes.
We've got one note here from Alex who did the calculations without placing a question. He said, "Organic decline in Q3 standalone is 17.6%-, according to my calculations." That sounds pretty fair for us as well. But as long as we cannot fully 120% bulletproof calculate a figure, then we will not publish an extra figure. But this sounds very much in common with what we highlighted in the call so far. Those are the questions for now. Are there any further questions? Please raise your hand or place the question in chat. In the [F&A] box, there's another question. Okay. One question here. What's the weight of your first customer? Weight of top three or top five? Thank you.
The weight. The percentage. Okay. Well, the top.
Yeah
Three customers are two very big brand manufacturers, the biggest ones in the world. The share with them is roughly 20% of our Ring business in total each. Which roughly reflects around EUR 35 million-EUR 40 million in revenues each. Then we have a big forklift manufacturer who is then number three and stands for roughly. It's less than 5% of the revenues.
Great. Thank you. Any further questions for the moment? This doesn't seem to be the case, so I'm handing over to you again, Christoph, to end this call today.
Perfect. Thank you very much for your attention, for the questions raised. We will participate in the Equity Forum in Frankfurt. If you would like to have further information and would like to have a meeting with us, I think we are present on Tuesday definitely.
Monday and Tuesday. Yeah.
Yeah. Monday as well, is it, right?
Yeah. Yeah. Monday and Tuesday. Of course, if you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to call me. We'll always be there for further discussions with you. Thank you very much from my side as well.
Thank you. Bye-bye.
Bye-bye.