Hello. Welcome everyone to Infineon's Power Roadshow 2022 . My name is Alexander Groschke from the Investor Relations department. With me are the division presidents of IPC and PSS. With that, I hand over to Adam. Yeah.
Thank you very much, Alexander Groschke. A warm welcome to everybody, and thanks for showing a strong interest in Infineon Technologies, enabling green power and driving decarbonization. Myself, Adam White, I am the Division President for Power & Sensor Systems, and with me I have-
Peter Wawer. I'm heading Industrial Power Control since 2016.
Okay. Thank you, Peter, and we'll share the presentation, and what I will do initially is give a brief overview on Infineon and the power strategy. Peter will walk through the IPC division, including the silicon carbide. I will then walk through the PSS division, including the gallium nitride, and we will ensure we leave enough time at the end for Q&A. As you know, a number of you know that we've actually refreshed now our target operating model. I believe and we are very proud to say that this is a more ambitious financial goal and of course, also making sure that we're being a sustainable leader also. Let me just focus your attention really into the segment result margin. Here, this is one of the major fundamental shifts in the target operating model.
We actually improved this from the previous 19% now to 25% throughout the cycle. Revenue growth is now showing greater than 10%. On top of that, we've added the adjusted free cash flow as part of the operating model. Moving forward now. Basically, let me just give a brief introduction about the revenue by division. Peter and myself are effectively representing just over 40% of the company's revenue here within PSS as well as IPC. On the right-hand side, we really wanted to highlight the five key applications which account for 60% of the growth. As you can see here, we're very well diversified. We have e-mobility, renewables, ADAS, data center, and IoT, just to name the five key applications. At the bottom, we show the revenue growth through the cycle.
It's very important for you to understand that by division. ATV and IPC are showing here greater than 10%. PSS and CSS, approximately 10% through the cycle revenue growth. Next slide. Of course, being a leader, here, we as a company are putting a lot of focus in moving into power systems. Here, of course, if we understand the system, we understand the application, we then can really offer the customers now a lot more value proposition. The interconnect between the controller, between the driver IC, between the power switches, coupled with software and application-specific algorithms, really gives us now a value proposition, so we can get eye to eye with the customer and of course, do value-based pricing ultimately. At the top is just some examples that we'll do a deep dive in today.
For example, we talk about the solar inverter. Peter will highlight that. The battery powered applications, as well as the server power, where there's obviously a never-ending appetite for us using more and more data moving forward. Next slide. Here, Infineon is a key enabler for the total power. What I would like to do is just really show that we're the number one semi enabler for over 50% of the current wind as well as solar. The next slide here for the installed capacity, approximately 60%, Infineon is actually contributing for the semiconductor enabler. Finally, from the energy conversion and usage, we're number one for the broad portfolio. One example there is in vehicle electrification.
I believe you've all got a brief overview, and now we'd like to do a bit more of a deep dive into IPC. Now I will hand over to Peter.
Yeah. Thanks a lot, Adam, for the introduction. I'm happy to be here again after a few years, also delayed a bit by COVID. Happy to be here in London. Happy to share the call here with you and the update for IPC and PSS. Let's get started with the first slide. That is the usual overview. In a nutshell, how IPC have evolved. Of course, growth rates were impacted by COVID. Nevertheless, now in the already ended fiscal year, we were able to grow by 16%, achieving also in the recent years, let's say in the recent decade, an all-times high in segment results. Let me add also here, this growth was capacity limited. We could have done better if we would have had more capacity. On the right-hand side, you see how the revenue was distributed.
We managed to achieve EUR 1 billion sales in ending fiscal 2022 by modules, the remainder is distributed in discrete and gate driver ICs. I think it's worthy to note that this includes silicon carbide, I will dig down a bit more in detail into the silicon carbide topic. The well-known key customers, you see on the below side. Not to forget that the industrial space is characterized by huge amount of small to medium-sized customers. We are currently serving a couple of 1,000 customers overall. Let's jump to the next slide to illustrate a bit about the really longer term growth potential. We all know what this is about, right? The CO₂ issue is affecting all of us.
Earth temperature development that you see now over the time of industrialization is creeping up. We all know that this is putting major impacts on society and our environment. See recent discussions in Egypt. Now on the left-hand side, you see the huge potential. We have to confess that still two-third is, of the electricity being produced, is based on fossil fuels, namely major chunk coal, natural gas, to a slighter part, still oils being fired for generating electricity. Think about how long are we in the industrial manufacturing and installation of solar. I accompanied this business also for a couple of years. We are in it as a society since 20 years, roughly, right? Look into the share of already installed solar capacity. It's almost neglectable on the left-hand side.
That's the orange part in the pie chart. In the years to come, we have to go to replace coal and the other forms of fossil generation. Just to give you, kind of a head start, how long-term oriented this growth opportunity is coming from the renewables wind and solar is. If we now go in the next slide to the applications of IPC, I would like to briefly comment how we see the market outlook for calendar 23. Sorry, the arrows are a bit thin, but let's starting from top to bottom. Automation and drives still being, a big chunk of our business, around 1/2 , is running very nicely. Very high demand, surprisingly high demand out of this business segment.
Nevertheless, the arrow is yellow because we believe that it will not improve further, and we expect rather a deterioration. We are lucky if it's keeping this high momentum in 2023, since it's typically tightly coupled to GDP, we expect a deceleration in the area of the industrial space throughout 2023. The arrows for renewable energy generation and power infrastructure are clearly going up. These are the areas with double-digit growth. We are sold out for 2023 almost in all these applications, and at our customers and would be eager to produce and supply more. Home appliance, the 4th line item is already in a weak state. It's very much coupled to consumer spending, it was decelerating and already on a lower level since the second half of 2022.
We expect that it remains on this low level for the foreseeable future, at least for the first half of 2023. Depending on how 2023 overall develops, we might be lucky and see an uptick of this momentum for home appliances during the end of 2023. Transportation and others are also green. Also here an upward trend, especially the area of transportation is boosted by strong opportunities from the commercial and agricultural vehicles. These are not the cars, but the trucks and also, as in said, construction vehicles which go to be electrified more and more. Going to the next page, if we sum it up, then you see on the left-hand side the typical industrial business where we expect for the next five years, that it grows with a typical single digit growth rate over the cycle.
Hopefully a bit higher single digits. You see then that now the renewables power infrastructure, EV charging business really massively adds on. Here we expect more than 20% growth out of this green segment, pushing our market, rest of the market growth for IPC to more than 10% overall. In a nutshell, key facts for IPC regarding growth are more growth due to the given reason of and dynamics of our market.
More silicon carbide, I will touch on it in more detail, and more profitability. Maybe another glimpse on how the CO₂ is affecting the globe. Meanwhile, the developed countries, United States, China being the number one CO₂ emitter already today, and Europe have declared carbon net zero targets, of course, on a different timescale. Once again, you see the main drivers of this CO₂ production on the right-hand side.
I don't want to dig too much into details, but again, you see here the electricity topic, which I mentioned before, is a part of the pie chart, namely being the biggest one, close to 40%, but also industry, transportations, and the others add up. Going to the next slide, we see the huge potential in the area of generation infrastructure and consumption and the whole green energy chain until 2030. These numbers are borrowed or used mostly based on the IEA Net Zero Scenario. You see here huge amount of additional generation from PV and wind.
Of course, the infrastructure topics, grid net, grid network and grid storage, adding up 660 gigawatt and of course more than 30 millions of EV chargers. Also upcoming in the second half of this decade, we expect a significant boost in the area of hydrogen generation. Here, the electrolyzers. On the consumption side, heat pump, of course, got a recent boost due to the energy crisis caused by the Ukraine war, plus adaptation of H2 fuel cells. Of course, also emerging applications like e-aviation and e-marine. It's still a bit questionable for us to what kind of impact will be generated. We tried on the next slide to also update a bit, giving you an idea about the semiconductor content.
That slide in a slightly different way, focusing on wind, solar and the storage topic we already shared during the last Infineon Capital Markets Day, and now expanded by the additional applications that I just mentioned. It's just to give you a glimpse how big the additions in 2021 were. That's in the first gray column. The second one, what is expected as CAGRs under the end of the decade. These are all tremendous double-digit CAGRs, giving us enormous growth opportunities. There's a second important message in this chart, and that's the color coding. The bluish green indicates those applications which are very much prone to the adaption of silicon carbide. The other green ones indicate those which the high likelihood will stay with IGBT for the foreseeable future.
Of course, drives, another topic, is not here on this chart because I said it has the single growth rate projection. These are the high growth topics, that's the message. The high growth topics to a large extent, namely the blue-green ones, rely on the adaption of silicon carbide or request the adaption of silicon carbide. With that, I would like to jump to the next slide, where we then can see what we now, talking only for PSS and IPC, what we see as growth potential. Not here talking about the drivetrain, the xEV, right? That is with our colleagues at the ATV division.
Only for IPC and PSS, we foresee a CAGR of more than 40% for the years to come, which would enable a revenue of more than EUR 1 billion in five years from now, meaning something like EUR 500 million topping EUR 500 million in the year 2025, which is only three years from now. We are very confident that we are on a good path, and I will give you some more details now in the slides to come. Very comprehensive, very shortly, why are we confident that we have a good strategy? I'm talking about the industrial market.
The topic of silicon carbide raw material supply is a thing where we are very confident that with our SilTeq for Cold Split technology and portfolio of already qualified high volume suppliers, plus additional suppliers that we do have in the pipeline, we will nicely be able to manage our silicon carbide raw wafer supply. Superior trench technology, the second one.
I mean, we are now since five years in volume production in the industrial market. We have expanded massively the product portfolio and we're gonna bring the next generation of silicon carbide device technology, the shrink based on the now high volume manufacture Gen 1 to the market in the next couple of months, maybe even ending this year, maybe beginning of the next year. We have a strong roadmap on technology, which I'm gonna show you in a minute.
Not only front-end technology, but also packaging portfolio is very important. Simply leveraging what we have regarding packaging portfolio, we basically expand in light speed our product variants also to silicon carbide. Deep system understanding and go-to-market access, I think goes without saying, not to underestimate the P2S topic, but Adam will allude a bit more on the relevance and importance on the P2S also in the example of gallium nitride. Looking into the next slide, what are the facts? In the industrial space, more than 300 products are being qualified and available for our customers. We meanwhile have more than 3,600 active customers regularly purchasing silicon carbide devices, and we have a design opportunity pipeline of around EUR 5 billion as we speak. That is growing on a quarterly basis significantly.
Let me also highlight here, this excludes, again, for consistency purposes, the automotive drivetrain. Big chunk is EV charging. PV is already mentioned. Power supply, onboard charging and others. Just to repeat a bit what I said before, CAGR more than 40%, expecting also something like EUR 500 million-plus in 3 years from now, having active design wins of around EUR 2 billion for the industrial space. Next obvious question is, would we be able to supply this volume? Here the good news is, while we are being sold out, manufacturing is ramping like hell. Our manufacturing guys are really doing a great job. We expect EUR 1 billion capacity in 2025. That is mainly based on the ramping, already ramping site in Villach. Of course, as you can see on the upper right-hand picture, Kulim, extensions making really nice progress.
We're on time or maybe even a bit ahead of time on the schedule. In the next 5 years, the very big additional amount of up to 3 billion total capacity will be added in a very cost competitive way from Kulim on top. Digging a bit into the technology topic, I think I already mentioned that we now gonna release the Gen2 very soon. It's regarding device architecture, the same principle that we use for Gen 1. It's a shrink where we see the cost improvement by around 25%. That is, of course, on die level. On package level, they're gonna be to a certain extent, diluted due to the package costs. It's also worth to mention that we are meanwhile already active developing Gen3 and Gen4.
Of course, the status of maturity is different, but we are very confident that we have a clear shrink roadmap for the foreseeable years, let's say until the end of the decade, where we continuously provide massive productivity out of the shrink of the existing trench technology. The good thing, there is no miracle behind. Of course, the devil is in the details, but it's not that we need to have huge additional investments into manufacturing infrastructure. It's a very co-competitive concept where we see this very high degree of shrink potential. That is the major factor of driving our manufacturing costs down, but it's not the only one. Let's have a look on the next slide where we see the impact of SilTeq technology.
We acquired the startup Siltectra four years ago, and we had the target to go into qualification and production in a timeframe of 3-5 years, starting the counting in 2018 when we acquired Siltectra. Now, I can share that we are already qualified. First wafers from Siltectra pilot line manufacturing, still from our R&D site in Dresden, are running and manufacturing.
The technology is qualified because we also achieved quite high yields of above 95%, and we are able, as expected, as promised by this technology, to massively increase the cost per split wafer. Reducing the kerf loss massively compared to the traditional wire saw. At the same time, of course, we have the potential to decrease the wafer thickness from the standard 350 micron going down to 300 or even below.
That is not yet baked into this number. That's still under evaluation and which could provide an additional upside. We are going now to transfer the SilTeq technology into our high-volume manufacturing site, where together with our tool suppliers, we will be then able to leverage this productivity. At the same time, we are very open to share and license the SilTeq technology to our strategic partners, which we have reliable longer-term supply agreement. It's our intent also not to keep it only for our own, but to enable productivity also at our suppliers.
The other thing on the next gen slide, which gives me quite some confidence regarding security of supply and also competitiveness of supply is that, first of all, the incumbent players, reflected here a bit on the left-hand side, have very ambitious plans for CapEx and e-expansion of the raw wafer supply business. Today, or from the public numbers available from last year, those incumbent suppliers own something like 90% market share. They're committed to increase their supply, but at the same time, you see on the right-hand side that the emerging players are really growing fast. While the incumbents are investing significantly, the emerging players invest even more.
If you simply do the math, this is all public available numbers, you see that only in the next couple of few years, the emerging players intend to triple their market share in the area of overall silicon carbide raw wafer market. That gives us confidence that we have ample of supply looking forward and also at a very competitive pricing. That's basically the last slide I would like to show you on behalf of IPC and of course, on behalf of Infineon. You see the following. You see the silicon carbide bare wafer projection according to Yole. That's the berry colored line on the left-hand side. We have highest quotation from suppliers, which is very much in line with the Yole number. Meanwhile, basically, it's on the line as indicated, right?
There are lowest quotations from very competitive and aggressive emerging players. You see the delta, it's more than $250, which they now offer us at a very discount, very competitive pricing, which is of course, now under investigation and under evaluation. We of course, are on our way to qualify and test the quality and reliability of these very competitive suppliers with high priority. As you can see also on the right-hand side, meanwhile, we are also yield wise, this is real life, 6-inch yield testing wafer test numbers. We are meanwhile on a level where also the disadvantage of defect density due to processing does not exist anymore out of the wafer process. We talk here about test yields in the area of 90%.
Only remaining difference is the defectivity, which is of course different if you compare silicon carbide to silicon. We are running yields on a very high level, giving us of course, also a competitive edge. Last but not least, all the suppliers we are talking with are also having a strong roadmap regarding 200mm. I can also share with you that we have already two independent suppliers which have provided us 8-inch samples. Also 8-inch investigation, R&D and enabling is starting 2023 at Infineon. When we will go productive with 8-inch is still TBD because it of course depends on the cost performance aspect, but we do not lose time in that area. With that, thanks a lot for your attention and back to Adam on PSS.
Thank you, Peter. I've heard the presentation a couple of times, but honestly, it's fascinating and encouraging update for IPC as well as Infineon. Related to now Power & Sensor Systems. Next slide, please. Just a little bit of a review, a reflection point. Last year, we continue now to show revenue growth, top line as well as bottom line on the segment result performance. In fact, the division, again, did a record year. Why are we doing that? It is, of course, a function of us winning with the winners, as we call it, with our key customers as well as our distribution partners. We have the ability now to really stay close to those customers. Gives us then the connectivity of understanding their requirements really at an application stroke system level.
This is our ability to really bring in more value. Of course, those results are a function of volume, but also value-based pricing because we bring more value to those customers. On the right-hand side, today, I'll be focused mainly on the power side, and I will be giving a little bit more of a deep dive on gallium nitride, noting the importance of this disruptive technology. For those of you that may be interested, I will be at the Mobile World Congress, and we will have the opportunity to hopefully meet to talk about sensors as well as RF. Next page, please. Really, from a PSS perspective, we are strongly driven by the decarbonization. It is part of our spirit within the division to really heavily contribute to this area.
Approximately 70% of PSS TAM is now power-related. Why is that important? Ultimately, the electrification, for example, from corded to cordless is obviously continuing to show an adoption rate, acceleration of renewables as well as EVs, namely on the onboard charger side. Of course, we're seeing overarching requirements from our customers to drive energy efficiency. I can give a little bit more of an insight as an example of that within the server application later. We need, our customers are requesting more density within the applications, making sure our topics become lighter as well as flexible designs. Here we've got now a broad range of technologies that we can couple together to really get the highest performance to give those dimensions as highlighted on this slide.
Switching frequency, again, can be addressed with the new gallium nitride technology. On top of that, we've got the leading edge silicon technology coupled not just with the switches, but later I will show you related to the driver, the controllers. Now, thanks to Legacy Cypress, gives us the ability to really offer topics like the microcontroller, like the connectivity, as well as the specialized memory as well. Next slide, please. Just a little bit of an input on the market. Long-term drivers are absolutely intact. We talk about the mega trends are definitely our friends. In saying that, we're also realistic that we've seen some slowdowns of the market.
Computing itself, especially in the server area, we see some slowdown in the enterprise, but the hyperscale continues to be healthy. We need to monitor how CapEx may obviously impact or support the further build-outs of those areas. PC market is definitely normalizing, remember, on a high level. We do see a slowdown, but overall very buoyant, and we believe that there's still a growth opportunity long term. Communications, especially namely around the 5G rollouts, North America, Europe, India, has been in focus for us. We're happy to say we're working with a number of lead customers that are taking not only our silicon solutions, but also our gallium nitride on silicon solutions for topics like base stations.
Smartphones as well as consumer, I think that's pretty much documented. Peter Wawer talked about, of course, home appliances, which also echoes some normalizations. Industrial, at the moment anyway, stays strong for us. Next slide, please. One of the areas that we continue to really add value, really from a system perspective, is the area of the server markets. As you can see here, there's definitely a strong growth that is forecasted. Also it's very important that the server market itself is also growing at different levels of BOM content. Whether, for example, you are using AI training, whether you're doing edge computing, all of these topics means that there's a lot more compute power, there's a lot more current, and there's a lot more density requirements.
Here with Infineon, we've gone through a journey of one offering, for example, a discrete offering. We moved into integrated OptiMOS Power stages. We now move into the area of DC-DC modules, and then the next stage for us will be offering the industry Infineon proprietary packaging, where we are working with the world leading processor companies today to really continue this incredible journey of offering value and of course, offering ultimately energy savings for these applications. Next slide, please. One such example here is the example that we worked with one of our customers, Supermicro, and this is a MicroBlade server. If you look at this content, you can see here the amount of content that Infineon has offered.
This is our ability to really work closely with Supermicro, work closely with the processor company of their choice. Here we go in from a system level to really offer the ability ultimately to save what we call here actual compute device savings. We've actually shown here that it saved about 56% in data center space utilization. On top of that, there's a 45% in CapEx, and actually a $13 million saving in year in electricity. Again, this could only be achievable of really working with the winners, in this case, Supermicro really wanted to bring in green servers. In order to do that, they chose Infineon technology at a system level to enable these metrics.
Huge amounts of BOM content for us. There'll be a lot more of that coming through as the world continues to consume more and more data every year. Next slide, please. The other area we just wanted to highlight within PSS, on top of that, we are supporting here the residential solar systems. Here we focus on the PV microinverters. We also have a system offering for the DC-DC optimizer as well as the string inverter. We also support the energy storage. What I was mentioning before, this is now not us going at a discrete level. We're offering right the way through the broader portfolio from MOSFETs, through the isolated gate drivers, for silicon as well as gallium nitride.
We are also then working on packaging and integrated monolithic packaging, therefore power stages. Again, digital isolators is giving us a new access to new opportunities with these world-leading companies. Next slide, please. Now let me move into the area of gallium nitride. This is an incredibly exciting opportunity for the industry, and I'm very happy to say that Infineon also has a strong ambition to continue to be a world leader in power management. To do that, of course, we have silicon, we have silicon carbide, but in some applications, as you can see from this market research company, the market itself is due to grow to EUR 2 billion by the year 2027. Next slide, please. Why do we believe it is very important to us?
I really put the focus on the gallium nitride. You can see here with the onboard charger, the generic chargers, 5G base stations, as well as servers for the high voltage. We believe that there's going to be an adoption rate, for example, from silicon maybe to silicon carbide, but in the case of the onboard charger, there will also be a clear benefit from a system perspective when it moves to gallium nitride. Why do we say that? It's higher efficiency, and we're driving with the who's who of the industry to ultimately get to lower system cost as well. Next slide, please. Here, Infineon is very well positioned. Why do I state that? There's two dimensions I'd like to leave with you today.
The first one is we are a pure integrated device manufacturer. We of course own our IP, which we'll talk about in a moment. But this IP is very fundamentally important, also in the epi processes. For that, we've obviously got our own epi capacity, our own epi IP, and we've also got the know-how, which is also very important to get scalability. We move now to the 8 inch, and this will ultimately give the big potential for bringing costs down. On top of that, we've been asked by our customers, which we are now supporting, to make sure that we've got dual-source in-house production. That again is very, very important. On the right-hand side is about the intellectual property.
Of course, we've got a lot of innovation generically in power. Peter articulated earlier about the main knowledge that we have at the application levels for many, many years. Here we've also got this capability of the domain knowledge also in gallium nitride. We've got the number one patent portfolio with around 300 patent families, and of course, we continue to innovate and do the right filings. What I will say is that ultimately in the gallium nitride area, we will and continue to work with any companies out there that we potentially believe that may be infringing our patents. We'll be having, of course, healthy discussions to work out how we can move forward. Next slide, please.
One of the key topics, again, we just want to really leave with you, in our recent analyst call, Jochen Hanebeck and the Infineon management board, also highlighted that we have now a design pipeline of greater than EUR 1.5 billion. For us, this is a huge landmark, within the power as well as the RF applications, because it really gives us confidence that there is a tipping point happening in the industry. A little bit like what Peter was alluding to with silicon carbide, we have a very similar now, topic that we need to continue to work on in how we can obviously further scale and support to our customers with this technology.
One thing with gallium nitride, and here I just brought with you just one example of a 120 watt charger. The only way that could really be supported with our customer, Anker, was us working with them also on topologies on the best way to unleash the benefits of gallium nitride. Ultimately it brings in density, it brings in efficiency with of course, the desired outcome of overall cost benefits for that application. We've now shipped the first revenue related to GaN on silicon for RF applications. We feel very strongly about continuing this journey.
We are, I know teaming up because we fundamentally believe within Infineon as well as the PSS division, that all of the three technologies will find a value proposition at a system level within these applications. Namely, of course, silicon carbide, as well as gallium nitride, it is essential we continue the journey to really understand the systems, the interconnects that we need to do between the switches, the drivers, the controllers, the software, the microcontrollers, right the way through to connectivity, memory, of course, security, finally, and very importantly, the sensors, so we can then communicate from a human machine interface perspective. Thank you very much for listening today. Now I will hand back to Alexander, who will now help us work through the Q&A session.
Yeah. Hello, everyone. Q&A is open. Please raise your hand, and Yes, we are going to start with François-Xavier Bouvignies. Please unmute yourself.
Hello. Can you hear me? Hello?
Yes, we can hear you.
Can you hear me? Okay. Cool. I have two quick questions, if I may. The first one, maybe it's for you, Adam, I mean, on GaN. GaN have been, you know, around for some time, I mean, International Rectifier that you know particularly well, had the gallium nitride. It seems that, you know, it's gaining more and more traction by listening to you. I mean, that we are maybe moving to a turning point in terms of adoption. Do you agree with this assessment? I mean, you showed the revenue, you know, backlog that you had in terms of design wins. Can you maybe flag, you know, if you see a specific application or, you know, what's the turning point of gallium nitride in terms of adoption right now?
I have a second quick question after that.
Yeah. Thank you very much. Yes, and thanks for the question because it really resonates with us now within Infineon. Gallium nitride, again, in the right application with the right topology can really add significant benefits to a number of applications. On page 33, please, you will see here that we are now actively working on converting the on-board charger, the chargers, as well as the 5G base stations, as well as server high voltage. I'm happy to say that we've got a number of design pipelines that have already been confirmed to us with the customers that their intentions and they are looking to ramp. We believe, yes, with a design funnel there that I showed you of a 1.5, we are reaching the tipping point.
This is very much an in-focus topic for Infineon. The win with the winners mentality, the who's who of our customers are really bringing Infineon in now because they recognize that, one, we're an IDM, two, that we've got a strong IP portfolio, three, we've got the system understanding.
Right. Thank you, Adam. Maybe one quick one for Peter. I mean, you talked about the silicon carbide roadmap, excluding EV auto, and it seems to be a very steep, you know, revenue growth as well. Now, if we look at most of the forecasts, which are, you know, competitors or industry, they are looking more, you know, into a very heavy auto-driven market for silicon carbide within the, you know, three to five years. It seems that we kind of underestimate the industrial, you know, side of things. Can you elaborate a bit on the silicon carbide for industrial, why you would think that maybe it would be bigger than people expect, you know, at least in terms of industrial versus auto split?
Yeah, François, thanks a lot for the question. I mean, let's move to slide 16, which maybe indicates this a bit, as I try to explain. First of all, I totally agree that the EV drivetrain is a big thing, no doubt about that. But it's a market that still needs to develop itself, growing, of course, with a double-digit CAGR. On the industrial side, there are already quite big markets existing. Today, they are silicon, namely IGBT-based in the high voltage area. We all know that having existing market changing due to the value proposition of a new technology typically happens to take place with a much, much higher growth rate, or can take place with much higher growth rates compared to developing markets.
In the case of solar, I would predict much, much higher adoption and growth rates of silicon carbide, because for high switching application like solar, the value proposition is completely clear. For EV charging and the grid-scale battery storage, of course, as for the EV, the market itself is evolving. It's really exploding. It's growing big time. There are other markets which are not shown here also in the industrial space like UPS, where silicon carbide has a very strong value proposition. My personal conviction is that these existing applications, which are from a value proposition, very well suited for the adoption of silicon carbide, are in many market models underestimated.
Therefore, I think that the share of the industrial market from a growth perspective, but also in absolute terms, is significantly higher than that what is currently being shared in the typical market models. I don't want to be misunderstood. The lion's share definitely will be xEV, I think it's different if you think about industrial space, 20% of the total market or maybe 40%. I think easily, it can be much, much, much larger the share than those very often shared 20%-25%. I believe in significantly more.
Great. Thank you.
Okay. Our next question comes from Janardan Menon. Janardan, unmute yourself, please.
Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I just on the silicon carbide side, looking at again, automotive versus industrial, given that the joint guidance is for about EUR 1 billion of revenue by the mid-2020s and further on, you know, beyond that, towards the EUR 3 billion mark, as we were told some time ago. How do you allocate capacity? Because I get the feeling that both the IPC division as well as the automotive division are capacity constrained in silicon carbide. I was just wondering, what are the puts and takes internally within Infineon on how this capacity is being allocated, especially keeping in mind that the margins are probably higher on the IPC side compared to the ATV side.
Is that a factor at all, or if you could just run through how that? On the gallium nitride, I just have a question as well. Can you give us a rough breakdown of the $1.5 billion of design win pipeline that you have in terms of applications? I wanna get a feel for how much data center, as I mean, servers as well as on-board charger is within that portfolio. Is the bulk of that still sort of adapters and smartphone charging and things like that? In Infineon's case, is the percentage of data center and on-board charger much higher than the industry breakdown you gave on one of your charts?
Yeah. Let me just take, if I may, the gallium nitride one first, and then I will obviously hand over the microphone here there to Peter. We don't actually break down the percentage at the moment of our pipeline, but I would like to give you confidence. It's not in one application that is dominating the pipeline. We are getting a lot of diversity now of designs because customers are willing to work with Infineon on new topologies, as I was alluding to really unleash the potential of the gallium nitride. Of course, we saw an early adoption within the chargers, but now moving forward, we are really now beginning to see the pipeline enriching, as I call it, in the areas of the servers, the data center.
Edge computing could also be something that for the high voltage that is continuing to happen. We're also seeing the BPA applications, battery powered applications, also very much in deep research and projects that have been sponsored by those customers. Of course, when we are getting a little bit more confidence in the conversion of that pipeline, we'll be able to provide a little bit more breakdown detail. My message really is, yes, early adopters in adapters, but now other segments are really converting and we're looking to ramp up. I must also stress the area of solar as well. This is another area that we've got deep interest within the industry. Peter, over to you for the silicon carbide.
Just a follow-up on GaN, if I might. Have you already secured on-board charger design win? If so, by which year would that be shipping?
We are actively working in that application. I'm not, at the moment, going to give any more details of that. What I will say is our system architects and customer system architects are very buoyant about the value proposition and we will talk a little bit more about the ramps of the on-board charger at a later date.
Understood.
Yeah. Maybe, before I come to the silicon carbide question, just on a side note, we have also the first modules, IPC modules, containing gallium nitride chips at selected customers for investigation R&D purposes on their system side. I just can confirm what Adam says. Far away from big design wins yet, the customer interest in the area of 650 watts, definitely there also even for the modules. Coming back to your question on silicon carbide, I think you hit the point. That's a topic of big debate. We underestimated now the demand, either from automotive and from industrial side in the subsequent years, we are completely sold out. I think it's a very heated debate inside Infineon how now to allocate capacity. I think we have agreed on a rule.
I would say so far, I'm a bit confident with the share I get for silicon carbide being able to differentiate via the product portfolio offering, generating very accretive margins, also accretive compared to IPC silicon business. Of course, now with the recent very big design wins on automotive side, the discussion is heating up. It's, to be honest, still under discussion. I cannot share now with you a certain rule because as Adam explained, we have raised, of course, our financial model. It's very important that we execute on growth, but even more important that we execute on profitability. While you have now to optimize the best of both worlds, right?
Maximizing profitability, on the other side, of course, securing big design wins, which are securing revenue growth perspective on the Automotive side also long term. It's not an easy equation to be solved, still in discussion with the Infineon board and maybe at the next occasion you also ask our board or CFO and Jochen on the topic. Of course, we all have individually ambitious targets, right? If you ask me, I would love to get more share on silicon carbide, with no doubt.
just one-
So
Sorry, last follow-up. On the 650 watt gallium nitride, before the end of the decade, by 2030, would you think that gallium nitride is gonna be a material part of the IPC revenue stream or is that too early?
Yes, yes. No. Now if you ask me, I expect under end of decade, I expect three-digit million revenue also based on gallium nitride. Will be, of course, a small portion of the overall potential that Adam has showed, but I would say a three-digit million I consider substantial end of the decade.
Again, just to round that off from a PSS perspective, as I was indicating earlier, there are a number of segments, applications that will fully adopt gallium nitride by the year 2030. No doubt about that at all.
Okay.
Understood. Thank you.
Pleasure.
Next question comes from Aleksander Peterc.
Yes. Hi. Hope you can hear me all right.
Yes.
Yes.
Excellent.
Excellent. Thank you. Thank you for taking my question. I'd just like to understand first, maybe that's for Peter. You say you have EUR 1 billion of capacity in silicon carbide by 2025, but you plan to reach that run rate only by 2027. I'm wondering what stops you to get that EUR 1 billion quicker. Is it limited supply of substrate, or is there any other limitation? Obviously, demand is clearly there, and you say you are fully sold out for your capacity. Just wondering, you know, what's the disconnect between that EUR 1 billion capacity in 2025 and your actual revenue being there only by 2027.
Yeah. Thanks.
I have a quick follow-up.
Thanks for the question, because then the explanation was a bit misleading. The missing thing is the automotive silicon carbide revenue.
Okay.
So-
All right.
as I said in the slides, right, we both believe not to underestimate also the share of PSS. Okay, lion's shares with IPC, but nevertheless, we combined it, right? We will be able to deliver more than EUR 500 million until 2025, around 2025. Capacity-wise, we are able to support 1 billion, and that relates to the question before, right? The delta is of course then ATV. Very, very simplistic looking, right? Assuming we get a clarification on the capacity allocation question, then you can simply assume and very roughly, right, 1 billion, 2025, half automotive, half non-automotive.
Okay. Okay, okay. That makes sense.
Does this answer-
Um, second
Answer your question?
Yeah. Yeah. The second question I would have is if you could tell us who are your tool suppliers at the moment, how many you've got, and how confident you are on the supply there.
At the moment, I don't share the number of tool suppliers. I can just share that we are now in discussion with another four. We see that the interest and willingness to supply us wafers and boules in conjunction, including a potential deal of licensing the Tekla technology is high. I expect very recently, meaning beginning of next calendar year, that we announce a deal which comprises a very high volume regarding wafer, boules, and also cross-licensing through Tekla technology. That is already quite advanced in progress, and we will publicly communicate once the definite agreement is signed.
Yeah. Maybe to your first question, raw wafer supply and SiC is certainly not a limiting factor. I think part of the question was can we ramp faster? Yeah maybe Peter, you can say a word on that. Can you pull in the 1 million.
The ramp speed is not limited from today's perspective by the availability of raw wafer material. It's completely limited by the ramp speed due to speed of building of Malaysia and still also the availability and lead time of tools. That is somehow related. I think maybe we can expect that there's a certain relief on the lead time of tools, but to be honest, I'm not too sure, especially in the area of silicon carbide. Everybody sees this growth potential, so we are on our way to secure a very big share of equipment needed then also to ramp Kulim with light speed. It's simply a question of construction of Kulim plus the tools, while the ramp speed of Villach is clearly limited by tool availability. Tools definitely tool supply improving. Ramp speed is set quite ambitious.
Therefore, I disclosed that we think we're gonna grow for the next years to come with more than 40% CAGR, which I would say is quite decent looking into the overall expected growth according to the analysts.
Excellent. Thank you very much. Just a very quick one, last one. Do you have a market share ambition to share with us once the GaN market matures to that EUR 2 billion number? Do you have anything in mind, 30%, 20%?
The only way to answer that is that, of course, today we are a leader in power management, and in the future, we wanna continue to be a leader in power management. I'll let you assume the percentages, but as you can see, we have the desire to remain a very strong overall market share in all of our solutions.
Excellent. Thank you very much.
The next question comes from Lee Simpson.
Sorry. Great. Good afternoon. Thanks for letting me on the call. Just a couple of things first before I ask. I think you mentioned that the margin was accretive for Silicon Carbide in IPC. Can you just confirm that, and can you say if that's the case in ATV also?
No, sorry, I can't.
Right. It was in IPC. That was clear.
I'm not in the numbers. I know my numbers, but sorry, I don't know the ATV numbers.
What about IPC then?
Gotcha.
You talk about it.
Gotcha. Okay.
Yeah.
Maybe Peter, just, you know, it was interesting you talked about the Kulim ramp and the availability of tool sets, but do you have a sense for the annual CapEx you would need for ramping up Kulim three? Really, just as that comes online, given the demand that you've got, particularly in that pipeline, what do we think, if any, unused charges might materialize around COGS in the subsequent years? Thanks.
You mean then, having idle, to account for idle?
Yeah.
what is the point?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Idle, yeah.
Yeah. It's really difficult from today's perspective to assume that that might happen. We all know, right, it's still a cyclical industry and now we experience an extreme boom phase and now also for silicon carbide for the foreseeable future, the boom continues. The thing is, of course, we are committed now to purchase a reasonable amount of to three ls, first tool set, which give us the confidence that we can support this growth. Of course, we do not have now a super long-term commitment for many, many years to come being obliged to purchase equipment. It's a bunch of tools. It's a very significant bunch, which is planned on the finance side, also related to our capital market CapEx numbers that we can afford. That is fully in line.
Once we foresee that due to very strong supply of competitors or weakening demand, the thing might change, of course we are able to push the brakes. We are not doomed and committed forever. Not to forget, of course, also the Kulim three facility can be used for every other kind of technology. To a certain extent, of course, the tool set is then dedicated, especially now in the first phase, while we go for 6-inch, but all the tools that we now purchase are able also to being used for 8 inch. As you know or might know, Kulim one and two, that is our huge 8-inch manufacturing site. We do not have 12-inch there.
All the 6-inch ramp that we are now planning for Kulim requires or tools are being purchased for this ramp, which are able also to manufacture a silicon 8-inch wafers and of course also silicon carbide 8-inch wafers. We have this kind of inherent flexibility that I'm not too much concerned of. If there's an overall massive market downturn that we and the industry might face, of course we have to incur idle. That's normal name of the game, it's not a silicon carbide specific topic. I'm not really not concerned on that one.
If I may add, we're in a luxury position that three of Infineon divisions actually have silicon carbide demand. For example, you know, automotive is clear, IPC has been heavily discussed, but within PSS, we've also got silicon carbide adopting in areas of on-board charger, as well as in AC-DC applications as well for lower voltage. Here, there's definitely a good trade-off between each of the applications that I believe will benefit the overall utilization of this new capacity.
Got you. Maybe a quick one, a follow-on for Adam, if I could. If we broaden the discussion beyond silicon carbide and if we're looking really into 4Q, how are discussions going around with distribution partners? I'm thinking in particular around, you know, the test ordering, perhaps even foundry ordering for 4Q and into Q1, particularly around industrials. Is there any color you can give us for the strength or any changing patterns that you might see there just now?
Yes. It's a good question. As you know, we do have a high level of our business going through our respected and trusted distribution partners. We do stay very close monitoring our KPIs for distribution inventory. We got a target inventory of anywhere between 10 and 12 weeks of inventory is our preferred target model. At the moment, we're heading towards the upper range of that. However, we are also actively managing what we're shipping into distribution to keep within the KPI. I must stress again, and for full disclosure, we are seeing different markets react differently at the moment.
For example, in the consumer area, if we got some of our partners supporting mobile customers, that may show stronger weakness, and that's something we are working and making sure that inventory still stays within the KPI model that we established.
Makes sense. Makes sense. It wouldn't be a question set without asking about GaN. I think you mentioned your patents families, 300 patent families, which seems incredible, obviously well benefited by IRF. It was apparent to us that there was an infringement of a GaN patent in the U.S., and I think you took some action. I just trying to get some sense for your intent to defend your patents, particularly in U.S. courts over the next few years as it relates to gallium nitride. Thanks.
I won't talk about any specific situation, but what I will talk about is generically. Of course, Infineon, we're very proud of our innovation. With that, we obviously do protect the shareholders' value by putting a lot of IP, whether it's from a device or process or packaging, FE, whatever it may be. Ultimately, if we feel that the industry, or not the industry, if some companies may be infringing, then of course we will look to have deeper conversations with those companies to see if we can figure out a solution for the better good of Infineon and ultimately our customers as well.
We are pretty much confident, and we are very privileged to have such a broad portfolio of IP related to gallium nitride. I know working with a number of the leading customers, they are respecting that, and they are coming to us because they do recognize that we are the leader in the IP as well.
Thanks for that. This was a great call. Thanks for setting it up. Cheers.
Thanks for your question.
Thank you.
Cheers.
Next question comes from Adithya Metuku.
Yeah. Hi, guys. Can you hear me?
Yeah.
Yeah. Perfect. Okay. I've got two questions on silicon carbide and two on GaN, please. Firstly, just a question on the yields that you defined, Peter, in one of your earlier comments. You talked about over 95% yields, and I think you made this comment in reference to SilTectra. I was just wondering, how do you define these yields? Is this the yields in terms of, you know, wafers from a boule? Is this, you know, the final MOSFET yield? Just any color on what exactly is that 95% would be great. Secondly, on your silicon carbide being accretive to margins, what is the driver behind this? Is this a function of premium pricing?
Is this because your yields are better than maybe on silicon, which is probably unlikely, but maybe that is the case. If you could just comment on what is the biggest driver behind silicon carbide being accretive to your margins versus silicon, that would be helpful. Then I've got a couple of questions on gallium nitride.
Okay. Yeah, thanks a lot. The 95% plus yield I mentioned were only related to SilTeq performance. Meaning if you have a boule, then of course, you have the process to split the boule and naturally that typically is not 100%. We did a business case calculation, business case assumptions, where we said we need to be above 90%, ideally above 95% for separating the wafers from the boule. When I said these 95% plus, then I referred only to the split process, not taking into account further processing afterwards. That's purely getting the boule, of course, with the assumed reduced kerf loss based on the laser splitting process.
If I split 100 wafers, I get more than 95 good ones, which I then of course need still to polish, that is already included in the yield. These 95% plus out of the 100 are put into wafer manufacturing. That is answering your first question. The other picture I showed that was related then only up to 90% test yield. That was only then related to wafer manufacturing, right? Not to misguide you or to irritate you with this topic. Back to your question on the margin. That is the thing regarding portfolio. My belief is, first of all, we definitely have a quite competitive technology. The customers like the specific performance aspects of the trench technology regarding drive voltage, threshold voltage, robustness.
There are a couple of little neat details which are to a certain extent, advantageous compared to the planars. Obviously, that is appreciated by the customers, but that is not the big reason for having accretive margins. I mean, maybe it plays a role regarding pricing. To be honest, I don't know. The big thing regarding margin and pricing is the portfolio play.
We meanwhile have more than 300 products in different voltage classes, different form factors, namely discretes and modules qualified. That's the way how I think we can differentiate and justify higher margin. The next obvious question would be, how long will you be able to sustain it? Honest answer, I don't know.
We play the portfolio game as good as we can, and I think it's not very easy to copy us, given the huge amount of product variants, modules, discretes, etc., that we have. I would like also to highlight one topic, because on the silicon side, namely IGBT, we are also in die business for IPC. To very only few selected customers, there is a long-term trustful relationship where we supply those customers with silicon dies. Of course, also here we pay attention that it's not dilutive regarding margin, but of course the differentiation on the die level is typically limited, yeah. Die is a die. Of course, there's again cost and performance and reliability. The form factor application topic, that is then led to the person where you sell the die to.
We decided now due to the lack of volume, not due to the lack of willingness, but due to the lack of volume. From today's perspective, IPC is not in the die business because we have so many opportunities in the packaged environment universe, so to say, where we simply want to fuel the portfolio and play the portfolio game also together with our customers. We are also behind doing dedicated customized products based on silicon carbide.
That's the thing we learned from silicon, and we simply apply the same systematic now for silicon carbide, where we are willing and do for reasonable business opportunities, where we do customized products dedicated to customers. That's a leverage for the customer, how we help them to differentiate against their competitors, and they're willing to pay additional money for it.
Got it very clear. Maybe just a quick follow-up on that 95%. That's got nothing to do with the wastage of the boule when you cut into wafers, right? And maybe if you could also comment on what is the thickness of the wafers you're getting in terms of microns?
Yeah. No, If I got it right, it has nothing to do with the growth process because that is left to our supplier, right? We purchase the boule-
No, no.
That is correct.
I meant the wastage when you cut the boule into wafers. you know, that 95% is not reflecting, what you're able to utilize from the boule. i.e. it's not just 5% of the boule wasted when you cut into wafers. Is that correct?
That is correct.
What is the thickness of the?
Yeah.
What is the thickness of the wafers?
What I'm talking about is the standard thickness, meaning today 6-inch 350 micron. As we speak, we are investigating also the capability to lower the thickness of the wafers. That is, of course, potentially impacting then the yield in manufacturing. That is of investigation. We already have processed 200 micron thick wafers. We have already demonstrated that we can also handle 200 micron thick wafers. Of course, this has then a yield impact in manufacturing and we are currently assessing what could be the optimum. Having it in our own hand, we are not limited to 350, right, which is the standard thickness for silicon carbide 6-inch.
We simply play around and test the water, so to say, and maybe we are even able then to produce 300 micron or 250 micron thick wafers. The whole story needs, of course, then to be reassessed and rediscussed for 8-inch. Not to forget, of course, you gain productivity with 8-inch, no doubt. Industry will move to 8-inch. Due to mechanical stability considerations, typically the larger wafers are thicker. Again, the assumption is now for the first samples that we have in-house provided by trusted suppliers, the 8-inch wafer has 500 micron thickness. Material efficiency decreases, right? Of course, in the beginning, also the pucks, meaning the single crystals made of silicon carbide, are again rather thin, right? Not too high regarding first evolution of the technology.
here, of course, we have another knob where we can play about, around with the productivity, where we think we can go also regarding wafer thickness. Too early now to make here set any false expectations. Total focus today is standard thickness. Once we have this up and running, and we are now set and progressing into mass volume, we will closely look into additional productivity coming out of also potentially thinner wafers. Let's see. We'll keep you updated.
Got it. Thank you. I had two questions on GaN. Shall I ask them or shall I rejoin the queue?
Hello? Please go ahead.
Go ahead.
Okay, so just quickly, just on GaN, you talked about Cypress and integration of logic. I think if I heard you correctly, integration of logic on GaN devices. You know, I don't know if I heard you correctly. Firstly, if I did, you know, what level of logic are you able to integrate into your GaN switches? I know some of your competitors have talked about this as a differentiating factor. Secondly, just the MicroBlade server you talked about. Does that use GaN or is that based on silicon?
Okay. Thank you, Aditya. So to answer the first, the first topic. So the inherent properties of gallium nitride is, is a lateral device. So you have the ability to monolithically build a number of, uh, devices, uh, per effectively, uh, wa-- uh, um, wafer level. Now, here, um, there's a, a healthy debate going on in the industry about how much integration that you should do with a device. Uh, for example, you can have a switch, you can, in theory, do a number of switches, uh, uh, uh, per, per, per device. And at the same time, you can also integrate a driver, as an example, um, into, uh, one piece of a solution. But you also have the ability to do, um, not the complete driver, but elements. You can partition the driver and only, uh, basically integrate elements of that driver as well.
Here it really is a function of the application. I know I keep on stressing this point, but really gallium nitride is really understanding what the use case is, and then we can then determine how much a level of integration is required. We've had some customers who have walked into, to our doors to say, hey, they're very much looking forward, looking for a fully integrated device, meaning potentially elements of a driver and a switch. Then we've actually shown evidence that in an application, it makes sense to have two devices rather than integration. That's the first topic. The other topic, one of the reasons why I mentioned Cypress, it's, it, we now have, of course, thanks to the acquisition, we have a microcontroller.
What we will be doing is working some functionalities into a microcontroller. That, quite frankly, allows us ultimately to improve the switching frequency in operation of gallium nitride, also through the microcontroller capability as well. Here we are working now with our R&D and our system experts to make sure the next family of microcontrollers really gets and unleashes the benefits of the gallium nitride. That's the first question. The second question, the example I specifically showed on the green server for Supermicro, that is based upon silicon, but we continue to work with the who's who in the industry to look at options on the high voltage, for example, switch-mode power supply, for gallium nitride solutions as well.
We're getting a lot of interest, and we're beginning now to even convert the design funnel for switch-mode power supplies using GaN-based solutions for such applications.
Very clear. Thank you.
The last question comes from Sandeep Deshpande, please.
Thanks for letting me on. Sorry if any of these questions have been asked before. The first question I have is, I mean, I've gone through your presentation, and you did not talk about inverterization of appliances as being a driver. Is this not a driver in the power semiconductor market any longer, or is the penetration incredibly high at this point? My second question is on the wafer business itself. You talking about the Chinese suppliers in the wafer market. Where are the yields today from the when you make a device using these other suppliers, because you seem to want to integrate them into your process?
Yeah. Appliances, definitely appliances continue to be a very important basis of our revenue and of our market. The thing is that the appliance topic, with 1 exemption, which I'm gonna mention, is not growing at light speed, but at normal speed. We value it very much, and we intend to support it also forward-looking. Appliances is an important topic, and also the inverterization of appliances continues to drive semiconductor content. Giving all the other very attractive double-digit growth opportunities, maybe it's a bit a step back a little bit in the perception. There's 1 exemption, and that is not I would say not the very typical appliance, but it's becoming now a huge boost. That is the heat pump. Heat pump demand, especially now due to the energy crisis in Europe, is exploding.
The heat pump, if you consider heat pump as an appliance and from the product types and also the power classes, it's very close to the appliance topic. That is the thing which generates huge revenue potential looking forward. Here on this slide, the heat pump is indicated with 16%. We had a big debate. I still believe that that number might be a bit too conservative, but okay. That's on a global scale, maybe I'm a bit influenced due to the huge numbers coming now from Germany and Europe. It might be okay, but nevertheless, 16% is a huge opportunity. Now, I would say my comment to the heat pumps. The second question was related to the material and the quality of the suppliers.
We will not do any compromise regarding quality of the material. The yield assessment, if you maybe go to the, to the yield slide, that was my slide 24, I think. I think that is setting the benchmark. With a well-known supplier, experienced suppliers, you know that we have a big contract with Wolfspeed. We are very happy with their supply and quality performance, and we can achieve these kind of yields. That is now the test yields approaching 90% on the tested wafer. That's the benchmark. We will not accept any material significantly, substantially deviating from it because it's a first-hand indicator also of quality and reliability.
What I can share with you that we were very much surprised that the recent sample that we are qualifying, not yet qualified, from a new supplier, showed basically the same performance. That was after the comma difference. On par, more or less. We are now currently very curious in looking how the other emerging suppliers, where we already have material in-house, which we supply with light speed. Sorry, we try to qualify with light speed, how these will perform. The numbers are not yet available. Otherwise, I might have presented here also today. We expect beginning of next year also here statistically relevant numbers. It's not enough to just manufacture one, two, three or even 20 wafers. It's a bit more lengthy process based on our experience.
It takes some time because we want to have statistically relevant numbers. Let's see. From the first indication, I think, I'm optimistic that also those aggressive pricing emerging suppliers might deliver a decent quality. It's too early now to make bold statements on that one.
Okay. Thank you.
I think with that, we are about to conclude the call. Thank you for all turning your knob here to Infineon. Peter and then Adam. Thanks for the call. Any further questions, please address the investor relations department. We are always happy to serve you. Thanks a lot. Was a pleasure.
Thank you for your interest, everybody.
Stay in touch. Thanks. Bye-bye.
Bye.