Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome to today's earnings call of Knaus Tabbert AG, following the publication of the financial figures of Q1 2025. We are delighted to welcome the CFO, Radim Sevcik, who will speak in a moment and guide us through the presentation and the results. After the presentation, we will move on to a Q&A session in which you will be allowed to place your questions directly to the management. We are looking forward to the results, and having said this, Mr. Sevcik, the stage is yours.
Thank you very much. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Hopefully, you can hear me well. On behalf of the Knaus Tabbert management team, let me welcome you as well to this quarterly results call. As mentioned, I am the CFO of the company representing the management board. Last time we spoke was seven weeks ago, so not that much time has actually passed since then. Obviously, a lot is happening in our company on a regular basis, but what has not changed is the fundamental situation and the commitment of the management team and the whole organization to move the company forward in the direction that we all believe it belongs to. I will be making this presentation on the assumption that you're all familiar with the presentation of the annual results and the full context of what's been discussed on our call seven weeks ago.
I will focus more on the recent events and give you a bit of an update on where we are, as well as obviously run through the quarterly numbers. 2024 will continue to accompany us, obviously, for a little while, not the least. Let's say the challenges that it has left us with, but also when it comes to the comparison numbers, because clearly we will still be referring to the past quarters as a reference point. I will be covering part of that there as well. Let's then dive in. When it comes to, as I mentioned, the overall situation, fundamentally, we believe we are where we were also seven weeks ago. We do see the fundamentals as being strong. We will go through a little bit more detail, but the demand is there.
The brands are working, and overall, the organization is marching in the right direction. We have made significant progress when it comes to our strategic realignment, and I will cover some of the key areas of focus in a little bit more detail. When it comes to the team that is executing the strategy, as indicated earlier, Jochen Hein has now joined the team. As of the 1st of May, he is on board, and he hit the ground properly running, which is obviously very helpful to all of us. When it comes to the areas of focus, first of all, the accelerated adaptation of the product portfolio. I think I updated you when we had the call last time that we had sessions with our dealers. We went through very detailed analysis of the numbers, the sales, the logic, the synergies of the various layouts.
We have eliminated what is, one could probably describe, around a third of all of the layouts that we had. As of the beginning of April, we have launched the collection of orders for the model year 2026, which then starts in the summer. That particular process is ongoing, but at the same time, we're clearly looking also further out, because one thing is what you can do in the short term, addressing your most immediate priorities, and then what you need to do with your product portfolio going forward in 2027 and onwards, which is also a work in progress where we are heavily focused. When it comes to personnel capacities, I think you will have seen or shortly might the numbers in the report that we've now published, where you do see that from more than 4,200 engaged personnel, we're now below 3,600.
That is a big chunk of the impact that you will see also going forward. When it comes to standardization of supplies, that's more of a, I mean, I would say together with the production efficiency, these are two initiatives that definitely need to be split into two different groups. One of them is the more short-term priorities, where you can clearly, or you will see that we have cut down the number of chassis providers that we're working with. We are also looking into addressing some bottlenecks in production, et cetera, et cetera. There are more of the immediate priorities, but we are also in the process of launching a proper PMO office, making sure that some of these initiatives that we've identified are properly followed through. These are more mid-term priorities that will take probably a year or two to really be implemented.
These include areas like IT and, let's say, some production processes that we have, as well as areas like simplification of our general supplier portfolio and a certain standardization of products, which requires a certain level of development in our products, which will take some time. When it comes to the elimination of unnecessary costs, again, you will see in the report that our other operating expenses in the first quarter have gone down from EUR 32 million to EUR 23 million. We are further making sure that we either keep the costs at the optimal level or make further reductions to further optimize these. This is very much a work in progress that spreads along marketing, logistics, and other.
When it comes to the last point, that was more of a short-term one where we have done the majority of the implementation, and it will be seen both in OpEx, where some of the costs that we had for these unnecessary, inefficient projects are no longer there, and partially also in CapEx, but that will be more a long-term effect. Moving on to the market, we have selected Germany because that is our core market, as you know. If you look at the European numbers, or if you were to have access to them, these, I think, show a very similar picture. The market remains very strong. We do not see much weakness.
There are certain segments where there are, let's say, weaknesses, and that's also one of the reasons why, for example, you will see in the footnote that we have eliminated, for example, camper vans without bathroom, which is a segment we are not in, to be clear. Hence, we've eliminated it, not to show better numbers, but in order to make sure we show you the numbers which are relevant to us. That is a segment that is a bit weaker. If one looks at the overall registration numbers for the whole market and all products, you will see a picture that is slightly different. When it comes to our product ranges, the market holds. The end customer's demand is there.
You see some level of weakness in caravans, but that is very much along the trend that we've seen in the past years, while the motorized vehicles are strong. What I will also say, and that's not on this slide, but in general, I think that's a question I expect to get, is that we also do not see any very material changes when it comes to our market share in these various segments. One effect that we do see, however, is because this market can be split between the market for the private use and the market for the more professional, let's say, rental company demand, and we at this point remain quite strong in the market for the end customers, while the rental market is there we are a bit weaker. Moving on to the numbers themselves. First of all, I guess let's start with the revenues.
There we have recorded a 21.5% drop year-on-year. That is probably not coming as a surprise to you. In a historical comparison prior to the corona times, or certainly prior to the booms of the last two years, we're still very well running at a very healthy level. You will have also seen in the more detailed report that EUR 55.5 million of that number comes from the change in inventories. So one can say that a big chunk of our revenue for the first quarter is related to the strategic initiatives that we've announced to the market before, which is making sure that we improve our balance sheet and make sure that we decrease our inventories, as well as with the lower production levels, and in our case, also a much later start of production in our main production facilities.
We allow also the distribution channel to digest the inventories that they still hold and certainly have held more of. That is the impact you see over here. The other number that will have caught your attention is the order book. That is currently at the level of EUR 341 million. What has to be said there is that we have opened up the orders for the model year 2026 only at the beginning of April. This number reflects really only the orders that are related to our production of the model year 2025. As such, it ensures or it provides us with a reasonable basis to ensure our production until the summer, after which the orders that we are now in the process of receiving for model year 2026 will start kicking in.
When it comes to the EBITDA, there it's basically, as you would not be surprised, a levered picture of the revenue development. I mean, levered in the sense of operationally levered. Clearly, we have some persistent costs that are fixed or semi-fixed in nature, and combined with low production numbers and the later start of our production, where one has to hold certain level also of personnel capacity, et cetera, without necessarily having them productive, there is an element of costs which are there. Secondly, there is also an effect of the repurchase of vehicles from dealer insolvencies, which are then resold. I mean, part of them have been, I mean, a big chunk of them has been resold already. Part of it we still have on our books, but the resale is clearly done at a much lower margin, which then impacts the overall margin for the portfolio.
You will have seen that the personnel expenses and other operating expenses, as I commented already, have gone down very significantly, which then allows us to generate a positive EBITDA or adjusted EBITDA, which in this particular case is the same number of EUR 8.5 million and a margin of 2.9%. If we look at the cash flow statement, and this is a bit of a simplified picture to be able to indicate where we're going, from a negative net income number, we have generated a positive operating cash flow, which is mostly down to the fact that we are truly underway when it comes to generating cash from our inventories, as well as very carefully managing our net working capital in a context of a rather, for us in particular, not simple background.
I guess I'll get to that in a bit more detail on the next slide. We've generated positive operating cash flow of EUR 16.6 million. We've invested EUR 2 million, and that number is probably relatively representative of what we're expecting also going forward on a quarterly basis, maybe a bit more than this. Overall, as you know, it is our strategic objectives to make sure that we are carefully assessing any investment projects which are ahead of us. At this point, also given the production capacity that we have, we don't necessarily believe that there is an expansion CapEx required to any extent close to what it used to be in the prior years.
We've clearly paid a little bit more in interest or quite a bit more in interest, but that's understandably down to the amount of leverage that we have and the terms that we've agreed with our banks. We've paid down some financial liabilities, having generated a positive net change in our cash. If I then move more to the balance sheet items, as you know, this all flows one way or another together. Our net debt has decreased by EUR 10 million, so you will not have seen a substantial effect there. Our net working capital is also or seems to be relatively stable on the first look, down by EUR 7 million. There is, however, much more happening under the surface, and let me walk you through the three parts of the working capital calculation. One of them is inventories, which are down by EUR 72 million.
It would not be correct to assume that all of this is a sale of finished products, because a part of it is also driven by a very careful management of our material flow. Some of it is down to the fact that with our lower production numbers, and especially a very careful management, we are trying to keep our material stock used for production and unfinished goods at low levels. A majority of that impact is indeed the sale of finished products. You see our trade receivables going up, but that is a very natural development from an end-of-the-year number, which reflected a business which effectively stopped producing as of the second half of November. There are very little sales that one would have reflected in one's receivables. The level you see right now is reflective of a running business with running sales.
There are trade payables, which is a number that you would normally expect to move in the same direction as trade receivables. In our particular case, however, given the past, say, six months, there is still some way to go in our discussions with the trade insurers to be able to then truly normalize our working capital situation when it comes to our payables. Hence, this particular item remains relatively subdued and is likely to remain so for some time going forward. As a result, to conclude the presentation, we believe that the company has performed very close to our expectations in Q1. Hence, we can only confirm that for the full year, we can reiterate our guidance, which is that we expect to achieve EUR 1 billion in revenues and an adjusted EBITDA margin of 5%-6.5% throughout the full financial year.
With that, I would probably conclude and open up the floor to your questions.
Thank you very much for your presentation and transparency, Mr. Sevcik. We will now move on to the Q&A session. For a dynamic conversation, we kindly ask you to ask questions in person via audio line. To do so, please click on the raise your hand button. If you have dialed in by phone, please use the key combination star nine followed by star six. If you do not have the opportunity to speak freely today, you can also place your questions in our chat box, and I will read them out for you. We already have three hands up. Ellis Acklin, you should be able to speak now. Please unmute yourself in the left corner. Yes.
Okay. Sorry about that. Radim, good morning.
Thanks for the insightful presentation and for taking a couple of questions. I'd be very interested in hearing a couple of things. One, you talked a little bit about the program of having to repurchase some older models from your dealers and then reselling them back at a heavier discount. If you could just give us some idea of where you are with that, if that is winding down at this point, or if you see that still being a burden going forward. Tying into that, also maybe just talk about the inventory situation from the dealership perspective, which has been a big topic over the past couple of quarters. I'll leave it at that for right now.
Hi. Thank you. Good morning as well. Yes.
When it comes to the repurchase, honestly, it's obviously difficult to give a final answer because ultimately it's an evolving situation. We do believe, however, that the biggest impact is behind us. We have taken quite a few measures already at the end of last year. Where we saw that the dealers were in trouble, we have to some extent also canceled some of their orders. We have already taken precautions and worked together with the dealers at the end of last year, and that will have been reflected in our 2024 numbers. Also, we've been tracking very carefully, and hence the discussion that we had at the end of Q1, we've been tracking very carefully what has been obviously the most difficult period for dealers, which is going through the winter.
We are in touch with most of the ones that we believe could ultimately get in trouble. There are still a few cases out there that might impact us. To be also clear, sometimes it is difficult to determine exactly the impact we will see because, for example, we had one big insolvency that happened in Germany last year, and we did not really know what vehicles we would ultimately get until it was all concluded towards the end of the first quarter. That is when you really find out what vehicles you get and how many and how you can remarket them. To give you a more qualitative answer to your question, I do believe that the biggest impact is behind us. The rest that we have, we are carefully monitoring and providing selected support where that is necessary.
When it comes to the margins, you're absolutely right. I mean, I wouldn't necessarily say that we always sell these products at a negative margin. That is not the case. Obviously, the margin impact in the overall product mix is then quite negative compared to the running production. When it comes to the dealer inventory, that is going down. We still believe there is some way to go. The numbers, I mean, had one looked at the registration numbers in the first three months of the year, the picture was sort of very inconclusive. One was wondering where is the market going. The April numbers that we've received literally two days ago have been quite a positive. Overall, that's the numbers that we've shown the last four months.
Overall, for the year to date, the market is truly showing that the stability seems to be there, or certainly in the first four months it's been there. That allows the dealers to sell the inventories that they have that they might consider excessive, which is obviously facilitated also by the fact that we have reduced our production and hence allow them to digest the volume. We've gone a long way. There is still some way to go. Some market participants believe that we should be done by September. Others believe that we might require until the end of the year. Certainly, the momentum is there. The direction is positive. The market so far is showing strength, the end customer market, which provides all the ingredients to be able to get through this.
Okay. Thank you very much for that.
All the best for the rest of the year.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Acklin. We will go on with the person with the phone number ending 766. The stage is yours. Unmute yourself with the star six. We will go on with the next person. Yeah. Now we can.
Hello. Okay. I'm here. Sorry. Yes, I'm from Kepler Cheuvreux. Hi, Radim. Just one question maybe on your pricing strategy for the model year 2026. Can you give us some color on that? Have you decided maybe to lower prices to support demand, or what's your strategy here? Are you being more maybe aggressive on discounts currently to reduce inventories for the current model year? Yeah, if you could comment on that.
Understood. Maybe let me start with the latter one. I would definitely not say that we're aggressive in providing discounts.
Right now, we've done a lot of work with our dealers, and when it comes to the products at the end of last year, we have selected support programs for certain product groups. It is rather limited to certain products where we believe some level of support is required. As an aggregate support across the board, that is not our strategy at this point. At this point, I do not envisage that to be our strategy going forward, but that is the point in time today. That is point one. When it comes to our pricing strategy, that is actually work in progress. What we have done is we have really tried to dive much deeper into the various products that we have.
We tried to understand what is our contribution margin across those various products, what is the development when it comes to the sales numbers, so the volumes that we're placing into the market. We've looked a little bit more at products from our competitors just to understand how we place there. We're actually currently in the process of finalizing the approach to the market. We, at this point, want to treat the market as what it is, which is a healthy end customer demand market, which requires some level of adjustment. It does require some level of adjustment also on our production. We're not aiming to be buying market share, if to put it in very simple terms. That probably hopefully covers your question.
Yes. Yes. Very much. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
We will go on with the person with the phone number ending 809. You should be able to speak now. Yes.
Yes. Hi. Good morning. This is Miro speaking from JMS. Hi, Radim.
Hi.
Hi. I have a couple of questions, and I'll take them one by one if okay. The first one is regarding the segmentation report. I do not know whether you mentioned it, but you did not put it anymore in the report. Is this intentionally, or do you stop reporting on a segment level?
When you mean segment level, you are referring to luxury and premium, right?
Yeah. It is actually both. In the past, you provided by product, so caravans, motorhomes, and van conversions, and basically after sales, you provided the top-line figures. And then also on the EBITDA level, you provided the figures for luxury and premium.
Maybe you can give us the numbers here in the call. I do not know whether that would be possible.
I think at this point, given that it is a quarterly report, let's just say our approach to investors is a little bit of a work in progress, to be honest. We really want to make sure that we provide you with all the information you need to be able to understand the business and where it is going and the individual pieces to be able to model it. At the same time, right now, we are in the process of also finding the right balance when it comes to, for example, this whole order book topic is a big thing where we seem to be showing it.
Some of our competitors are not showing it, probably for good reasons, because the numbers can be pretty misleading depending on when you open the order book for the next model year, etc. It creates a lot of confusion and requires a lot of explanations, which are unnecessary. The level of detail we're providing now probably corresponds to what we would aim to provide in a quarterly report. I take your feedback for the half-year report, then we will then consider what we believe is the most efficient way forward when it comes to sharing information with the market.
Okay. Okay. You cannot give us the numbers also here in the call at this point in time?
Yeah. I don't think I would be probably citing numbers here, although clearly I have them.
I think at this point, there's probably the level of granularity that we want to stay at.
Okay. Cool. You already elaborated on the order intake in April, basically in May. You seem to be very happy. I have a question regarding the general seasonality of the business. I also have to say my model only goes back to 2020. Maybe it would be possible to infer something from the period before that. What I see from there is basically that typically Q1 is the second-best quarter in terms of EBITDA, also in terms of revenues. Q2, Q3, a bit, let's say, less. Q4 again is the best quarter in general. Is that a seasonality pattern also valid for this year, 2025?
I mean, I guess first, you're absolutely right.
If you're using a timeline back to 2020, you have a lot of distortion there from a very special situation that the whole industry has been experiencing. In general, it is our objective, and I think that probably applies to all the producers in the industry, to make sure that at least for us, we eliminate or we minimize the level of seasonality in our numbers. There is always some level of seasonality driven by the calendar effect of when your production is running. August tends to be a low production month in general, and so is obviously the Christmas period. By and large, all the producers, including Knaus Tabbert, are aiming to make sure that your seasonality as such is not directly linked to the seasonality of the end customer demand, but it is spread across the quarters.
This year is obviously a little bit special because we are dealing with the inventory situation. We are keeping our production lower. Hence, our sales of new products to the dealers are lower. We are selling some of our inventory, which is a distortion in the numbers, to the dealers. Dealers themselves need to digest those volumes. They are much more exposed to the end customer demand than we are, clearly, because they are sitting in the middle of the value chain. Do I want to guide you towards what the quarters going forward will bring? I would probably refrain from doing that. I guess hopefully a good enough indication for you is that we are trying to make sure that our quarters do not differ from each other too much.
Given the level of low production or lower production that we are running right now, and that we certainly plan to be running, I would say, until the end of the summer, potentially longer, but certainly until the end of the summer, you will see some of that impact in the numbers while we are running a lower production. There are going to be slightly different numbers when we actually start running a more run rate production level. Hopefully, that is cryptic enough but clear enough as an answer.
Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Associated with that, I mean, if I look at the P&L, I see this - EUR 55 million inventory change, right, right after the sales number. I have a question. How does this affect your margin?
Typically, what you would see is basically that once you take out the inventory, basically you have an uplift in margin because you book the margin basically once you deplete the inventory and you sell it. Also, is this the same effect with you? There was basically the effect that you could, on this EUR 55 million, basically you took them out at cost from the inventory and you sold it with a margin basically to end customers in the value chain. There was an artificial uplift in the EBITDA margin.
Yeah. I would not.
I was clear phrasing the question.
I'll try to answer the question maybe. In the end, there is nothing artificial about the way this flows, right? Because part of this inventory are products that we produced or that the company produced without end customer orders.
Those are the orders that we've then collected, and we managed to place this inventory with the dealers throughout the period. Now we're delivering those products and invoicing them. These are products recording on our books just like any other production that we produce. Then they're sold to the dealers on actual commercial terms, generating pretty much the same level of margin as any other production. What it indicates to you more is that a big chunk of the revenue and the products that we're invoicing to our customers, which in this case are mostly dealers, is coming from an inventory that we've been holding on our books that we were not able to place before.
Since, let's say, the change in the middle of November and the clear strategic direction that we've indicated to the dealers, they are now taking some of these products because they also see that they are getting the level of support from us, including us no longer pushing our production onto them. At the same time, they see a healthy end customer market. I do not think that particular number should worry you that much. I think it sends more a positive message in terms of that we are improving our balance sheet situation. I do not believe that there is any necessarily material, artificial margin impact coming from that number as opposed to the actual Gesamtleistung or whatever we produce in that given quarter.
Okay. Thank you. The last one for now regarding the—I'm sorry, actually, I have two left. Sorry for me.
We recorded a very healthy growth in the luxury segment, the 15%. Also there, it looks a bit like a step change, right? If I look at the very solid performance also before in the years and in the quarters, it looks like the price increases stay hold. You can keep the volumes high. The EUR 56 million really looks much better, obviously, than the premium segment. Now, given the fact that this is growing healthy, so to speak, and you see already a stabilization in the premium segment, would you agree that you know that the top-line guidance of EUR 1 billion, which is not guided on the Gesamtleistung but on the top line, looks increasingly conservative?
I think there are actually more questions I'd like to answer there. When it comes to the guidance, I will not surprise you by wanting to stick to what I said.
I think in the middle of May, it would be too early to say what looks increasingly what. At this point, the way we see the market developing and our own products on the market, we believe that this is the right number to be guiding towards. I, at this point, really do not see a reason why that should be adjusted. That actually ties to another point that seems to come across from the presentation. Maybe that is down to the fact that your first question, which is the segmentation, and maybe potentially the lack of clarity there. On the face of it, the luxury segment looks like it is growing. In reality, one also has to look at what is the basis of comparison. For the premium segment, that would be your Q1 numbers, which have been very strong.
For the luxury segment, given the switch also between new models, because as you know, MORELO has completely changed their product range in the middle of last year. Let's say that the basis of comparison for MORELO is completely different than it necessarily is for the premium segment. As such, that growth reflected in there, I do not think is indicative of necessarily that particular market growing at that rate of clip. That market right now, I would certainly not describe it as a strongly growing market. Let me maybe leave it at that because it's a market with relatively few competitors, some of which have materially higher inventories than necessarily we do. As such, I think the luxury market, I would not draw too many conclusions from the year-on-year quarterly growth that you see here and apply it to the full year.
At least that's not the assumption I would be drawing at this point in time.
Okay. The last one, and then I step back at the cost. I mean, you did a great job on the other operating expenses. The question there is basically, is this a sustainable new level? If I look at last year, I mean, we've already seen that personnel cost has come down, so this didn't surprise too much, I think. It's also very good, obviously. On the other operating expenses, I mean, this is clearly a step back towards the level that we have seen in back 2021, 2022. Is this sustainable, or was there any special effects to mention or so? The EUR 23 million other operating expenses?
No, I understand. I'm just being careful about what I guide towards.
We are indeed making sure that given that the company seems to be aiming for, or we're guiding towards, EUR 1 billion revenue, that implicitly means we're guiding towards a certain level of production. We all probably see what's happening out in the market, and we were pretty open about the fact that corona times and some of the visions that the company might have had before when it comes to achieving certain levels of production and growth were probably overly optimistic, and one needs to come back more towards stability. Hence, it is our objective to make sure that when it comes to these costs, so non-variable costs or partially also variable costs because you have some logistics cost there as well, and marketing, etc., but we want to move back a little bit to the times of more stability.
I believe that the numbers you see right now are certainly headed in the direction that I would consider sustainable. Some of these items will move potentially even lower because there are certain aspects or certain decisions that have been made which have a certain lead time. You cancel some contracts, and it simply takes a while before you stop paying. Others, I think, are probably set at a level which corresponds to the situation the company is in, but at some point will need to be increased. I do not necessarily have a run rate quarterly number for other OpEx to tell you that this is the level you should hold on to in your modeling. I also do not believe that that number would be miles away from what you see right now in our quarterly report.
Cool. Thank you. And all the best, Radim.
Thank you.
Thank you for your questions, sir. We have two more hands up. Thank you for your patience. Ingo Schmidt, the stage is yours.
Thank you. Ingo Schmidt from Montega AG. Thank you for the presentation and good morning first. How do you assess the further development of order intake and order backlog? Where do you expect the order backlog to be at the end of Q2 and Q3? When do you expect an increase in the order backlog?
Right. Thanks. First of all, actually, that is one thing that Miro mentioned, and I do not think I actually said, which is that we were commenting on the order intake in April and May because that is something we will, or I am certainly not planning to comment on this call. The order intake is coming in.
The dealers are giving a certain amount of time in order to also review the product ranges, review their situation. It is a discussion which is very much alive right now. We are collecting those orders, and they are flowing in. I would really not want to comment on where we are or where we will be at the end of Q2 or Q3. One aim of us is obviously certain, and that is we want to make sure that we have a level of stability in our production and in our planning, which requires us to have an, or requires, it is optimal to have an order book where you have sufficient headroom or sufficient runway to be able to comfortably plan. That is our objective. Ultimately, right now, we need to work very closely with our dealers.
It is not our target to be inflating or to be pushing for a high order book because, as you will have seen in the past two years, a high order book did not really bring us much. It was a reflection of optimism. It was a reflection of lack of issues in the supply chain. Ultimately, it led to over-digestion. Right now, we are making sure that our dealers like our products, our end customers like our products, dealers are going and moving along healthily with their inventories. That allows them then to have comfort ordering more products from us for the model year 2026, which is what we are now in discussions with them on. That is advancing.
Okay. Thank you. All the best.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Mr. Schmidt. In the meantime, the last question was obviously answered.
Please be reminded if there are any questions left. Now is the space to ask them. I will hold the room for another moment. One more question from the person with the phone number 809. You should be able to speak now. Yes.
Yes. Hi, it's Miro again. Sorry, just a quick one regarding all the tariff discussions and so on. Do you see any impact on your business from that in any way? I don't know, supply chains or end customer demand or whatever, currencies, US dollar, euro. Is there any, or are you immune? Would I suppose or suspect, but to confirm.
I mean, maybe over time, I'll become more comfortable giving definitive answers. Right now, I'm just trying to find the right balance.
The truth is, other than indirect impacts via the whole business environment and customer confidence, etc., I have not heard any of our suppliers, any of our dealers, or I have not been involved in any discussion that would involve anybody doing calculations with tariffs. Obviously, what I do hear and what we all hear, I think, is the whole customer confidence topic and the economic situation in Europe in general, subject to the developments of the trade relationships with the U.S. and I guess globally. I would be inclined to even give a definitive answer. Given the indirect effects, obviously, there is a way how this touches us. Directly, I have not heard a single one person mentioning tariffs in our discussions across our P&L.
Very clear. Thank you.
You're welcome.
Thank you so much.
In the meantime, we have received no further questions. With this, we come to the end of today's earnings call. Thank you, everyone, for joining and your shown interest in Knaus Tabbert AG. Should further questions arise at a later time, please feel free to contact Investor Relations Manager Manuel Taverne. A big thank you also to you, Mr. Sevcik, for your presentation and the time you took to answer the questions. I wish you all a lovely and sunny Wednesday, a valuable time at the spring conference. With this, I hand over again to Mr. Sevcik for some final remarks.
Thank you very much. Thank you for organizing this. Thank you, everyone, for attending. Hopefully, with time, we'll be able to make this an enjoyable experience.
So far, the news we've been sharing have not been great, but at the very least, I hope you see that we are making sure that we make progress and we deliver on what we're also reporting to you. I look forward to speaking to you soon. Hopefully, the markets are kind to us and to you all.