Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to Siemens' Combined Press and Analyst Conference Call. As a reminder, this call is being recorded. Before we begin, I would like to draw your attention to the safe harbor statement on page two of Siemens' presentation. This conference call may include forward-looking statements. These statements are based on the company's current explanation and certain assumptions and are therefore subject to certain risks and uncertainties. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to the host today, Mr. Tobias Atzler, Siemens Investor Relations. Please go ahead, sir.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and thank you for joining us on our combined analyst and press call regarding the acquisition of Altair Engineering on short notice. The press release and the presentation were released last night. As always, you can download the files on our website. Today, our CEO, Roland Busch, our Digital Industries CEO, Cedrik Neicke, and our CFO, Ralf Thomas, are on this call to review the announcements. Afterwards, we will have time for Q&A. We will answer the questions from analysts and from journalists. Please note this call is in English only. And with that, over to you, Roland.
Thank you, Tobias, and good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on short notice for this call. Siemens has been on a journey for more than 15 years to create a world-leading industrial software portfolio. Today, we are very pleased to announce the acquisition of Altair Engineering, Inc., a global leader in computational science and artificial intelligence. This strategic investment marks a decisive step to strengthen our leadership in industrial software and help our customers build the most comprehensive physics-based digital twins. The combination of our strong Siemens Xcelerator portfolio with Altair's capabilities in simulation, high-performance computing, data science, and artificial intelligence will create the world's most complete AI-powered design and simulation portfolio. We are fully convinced that acquiring this great company will create significant value for customers and shareholders, strengthening our position as a leading technology company.
And let me highlight the key reasons before Cedrik and Ralf share the details. We add a highly complementary simulation portfolio with strengths in mechanical and electromechanical simulation and AI-based data analytics, as well as high-performance computing. This enables our customers to build and leverage the potential of the most comprehensive digital twin based on a full-suite physics-based simulation portfolio. This transaction reinforces our position as a leading player in the combined high-growth PLM and EDA simulation market, where customers demand more and more holistic solutions to drive smarter decisions and compete more effectively. Altair's strong high-performance computing, data science, and AI-powered simulation capabilities will accelerate the broader use of democratization of simulation beyond specialists. And we will leverage our domain expertise and the immense amount of data captured in all Siemens Xcelerator applications with Altair's data science capabilities for scalable industrial use cases.
All these market and technological opportunities underpin the compelling strategic fit, and we expect to achieve significant cost and revenue synergies. Our stringent approach to capital allocation is directed towards sustainable value creation. We are confident we can make this bold move successful based on a strong cultural fit and building on the excellent track record of our very experienced software leadership team. This acquisition is a great proof point of our investment strategy to support our leading position in combining the real and digital worlds to support our customers with their digital and sustainability transformation. Since Altair is a publicly listed company, you are probably already familiar with the profile. Here are some highlights. Altair has a broad customer base with more than 16,000 customers globally, providing leading-edge software and cloud solutions in three major areas.
Simulation and analysis tools account for around 70% of total revenue of around $650 million, while solutions for data analytics and AI, as well as high-performance computing, have a 15% revenue share each. Since its IPO in 2017, Altair has achieved an impressive 14% annual growth rate in software revenue, of which more than 90% is recurring. Adjusted EBITDA margin is expected to be around 21%, with further upside potential, and now, let me hand over to Cedrik for further details.
Thank you, Roland. Let me start by giving you some more color on our industrial software business that we have been building organically and inorganically since we acquired UGS in 2007. We believed then what we actually believe today. Siemens is uniquely able to combine the real and digital worlds to create a sustainable industrial innovation across a wide variety of industries. It's why we have built and acquired software companies across multiple domains, from mechanical to electrical to software to manufacturing, that helps our customer create the most comprehensive digital twin of assets, automobiles, airplanes, batteries, or even electronics, you name it. The value of simulation and analysis is that it brings the digital twin to life by predicting how a product behaves under real-life situations.
Now, speaking of simulation, let's look closer at Altair's highly complementary simulation portfolio across the full range of EDA, PLM, and manufacturing process simulation. Altair's HyperWorks platforms offer a comprehensive suite of design, modeling, and visualization tools, allowing for advanced attributes to be modeled. Core strengths are in the mechanical and actually also in the electromagnetics disciplines. Combined with Siemens' core simulation capabilities in EDA, computational fluid dynamics, heat transfer, and mechatronic systems, we will be able now to offer unmatched customer value. Users can simulate complex physics-based models with precision across many, many industries, including automotive, aerospace, electronics, and manufacturing. The result is that customers can efficiently virtually optimize and validate products and manufacturing processes end to end. With the acquisition of Altair, we significantly expand our total addressable market in PLM and in EDA simulation, now covering a broad range of disciplines.
As software-defined products and the ever-growing importance of advanced electronics drive the convergence of PLM and EDA, the simulation capabilities must be seen in combination as well. Our combined simulation portfolio will allow us to uniquely serve these integrated domains, giving Siemens a competitive advantage. The combined market is highly attractive, with EUR 16 billion in size and 11% of compounded annual growth. With a transaction, we reinforce our leading position in this key market, driving consolidation. Furthermore, it adds around 8 percentage points growth to our digital business revenue, which approaches EUR 8 billion on pro forma fiscal 2023 basis and expands our number one position in industrial software. Now, Altair is a front-runner in embedding easy-to-use AI capabilities in its physics simulation software suite during all phases of product design. As you can see from this chart, simulation has until recently been the core domain of advanced experts.
This is actually changing now. The combination of physics and AI simulation has a massive impact to democratize the simulation process by expanding access to design engineers and R&D generalists at scale. The benefits will be substantial: reduced time to market, faster design cycle iterations, and more intense use of virtual optimization, and a business opportunity for us to provide simulation to new users, driving higher growth rates. Now, we see a unique opportunity to accelerate the digital transformation of our customers, enabling them to make better decisions and drive efficiencies across industries. Altair's RapidMiner brings powerful tools for machine learning and artificial intelligence to Siemens that will enable our customers to unlock new insights from their product and manufacturing data in Siemens Xcelerator and expand the use of data science across organizations.
Building low-code applications based on our Mendix platform will leverage insights from the data and enable engineering AI models. Now, looking at our six strategic imperatives, this acquisition is a perfect fit. We strengthen our position in a high-growth market with attractive profit pools, providing the opportunity to achieve significant margin expansion in the midterm. The portfolio is highly complementary and drives sustainability impact for our customers. We see material revenue synergies from cross-selling and from providing Altair's full access to Siemens' direct and indirect sales footprint. In addition, we have identified near-term and very tangible cost synergies, for example, through the delisting of Altair, optimized go-to-market, and the like. Another piece of good news is we've already done this when we integrated Mentor Graphics. Our Digital Industries Software team, led by Tony Hemmelgarn, has a profound understanding and execution experience to drive synergies and to retain talent.
As I previously said, we have been building the leading industrial software portfolio since 2007 through a visionary and well-executed strategy via four large acquisitions and more than 30 bolt-ons, bolstered with continuous organic investments. Acquiring Altair will boost our comprehensive digital twin with a full-suite simulation and AI portfolio to the next level. With that, I hand over to Ralf to give you an overview of the financial implications.
Thank you, Cedrik. Ladies and gentlemen, I think it's important to mention that we will execute this highly synergistic acquisition from a position of financial strength, which will be, again, reflected in our upcoming fourth quarter's disclosure on November 14. It underpins our stringent capital allocation, balancing investments and shareholder returns based on a very strong balance sheet. You can rest assured that we will continue to commit to our progressive dividend policy and share buyback program, providing strong cash returns to shareholders. Both share buyback and dividend policy will not be affected by the transaction. We are fully committed to maintaining our excellent financial position, recognized with our industry-leading credit ratings. The acquisition will be fully cash financed from Siemens' existing resources and its strong financing capacity from our balance sheet.
Our capital structure will definitely remain clearly in the target corridor after closing the transaction, which is expected to take place in the second half of the calendar year 2025 and is subject to customary closing conditions. Preemptive deleveraging is supported by significant cash proceeds from the already closed Innomotics divestment in the first quarter of fiscal 2025, based on EUR 3.5 billion enterprise value. In addition, we have substantial financing potential from the sale of shares in listed entities. And of course, we will be mindful of protecting the share price of these companies as we go. Let me give you a couple of further key transaction highlights. We will acquire 100% of Altair for $113 per share, implying an enterprise value of approximately $10 billion.
The offer price represents a premium of 19% to Altair's unaffected closing price on October 21, the last trading day prior to media reports regarding a possible transaction. This translates into transaction multiples of 14 times sales based on fiscal 2025 consensus revenue estimates and 31 x Adjusted EBITDA, including highly executable near-term cost savings. Near-term cost synergies are expected to reach more than $150 million per annum by year two after closing. Revenue synergies are expected to accelerate significantly as of year three, reaching $500 million midterm and growing to more than $1 billion long term. Our key M&A deal hurdles are fulfilled. We expect the transaction to be EPS pre-PPA accretive by year two post-closing and substantially accretive thereafter.
Furthermore, the deal is accretive to Siemens' revenue growth target, and performance is expected to be above Digital Industries' target margin range by year one after closing. With that, I give it back to Tobias, and we will be happy to answer your questions.
Thank you, Ralf. We are now ready for Q&A. Please limit yourselves to one question per person. We want to give as many of you as possible the opportunity to raise questions. Operator, please open the Q&A now.
Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star followed by one on the touch-tone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star followed by two. If you're using a speaker equipment today, please lift the handsets before making your selections. Anyone with a question may press star followed by one at this time. Our first question comes from Alexander Virgo from Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks very much. Good morning, Roland, Ralf, and Cedrik. Thanks for the opportunity. I guess the primary question, and in some respects quite a short one, would be why now? I think that some of the rationale you've obviously explained, but I guess the timing is the real question given the richness of the multiple. And if I could squeeze a slight follow-up in there, Ralf, you talk about substantial financing available from potential stake sales. I'm just wondering if that's a signal from the perspective of credit rating agencies or whether that's a more of a shift strategically. Thank you very much.
Yeah, let me start with the first one. Obviously, the space, the software space, industrial software and simulation space is quite overseeable. And we were looking into Altair and others for a long time, but then it's all about availability. And the founder, CEO and founder finally decided that he wants to have another destiny for his baby. And this was the point where we got in contact and we found out that this is a perfect fit. And the rest is what you see.
Yeah, and with regard to your second question, Alex, I mean, first, let me just quote from Moody's, who have issued a review this morning. They said that they consider the acquisition to be strategically sound. We hope for that. And they also mentioned, and I think that's remarkable, that this is going to be credit positive as it further supports the reduction of cyclicity at Siemens and that the AA3 rating and the stable outlook are going to remain unchanged. So from that perspective, I think we can tick that off and expect a similar reaction from the other rating agency. When it comes to having an opportunity to structure the financing of the transaction in different ways, I think this is a real privilege that we have at this point in time.
Therefore, we need to ask for some patience before we finally nail that down, given the fact that we expect the transaction to close in the second half of calendar 2025. It would be premature to throw out numbers and then regret, but we will pull all these levers without changing the strategic perspectives of what we said before. We have the privilege that we can build on the proceeds of the Innomotics transaction with an enterprise value of EUR 3.5 billion, as you know. We do have listed companies, actually three of them, Siemens, Siemens Healthineers, Siemens Energy, and also Fluence Energy may play a minor role in that game. We will be mindfully addressing that as we always did when we sold shares of listed companies. I hope you agree there was never any major noise when we did so.
This will be also the rule of the game if we proceed. We always said that we will sell down over the course of time the Siemens Energy shares, and we will make another step in that regard throughout the next couple of months. This is definitely not a surprise to you guys. We know that. We always said that we are not religious about 75% shareholding in Siemens Healthineers. So give or take 5% would be a meaningful assumption for a sell down in that regard without prejudicing strategic opportunities on the way forward. We said we look into that thoroughly and diligently, and we will do so as you know us.
Thank you very much.
Next question, please.
Next question comes from Andre Kukhnin from UBS. Please go ahead.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. Thank you very much for taking my question. I really wanted to ask about the very ambitious revenue synergies targets that you put out with EUR 500 million in the midterm, which we interpret as about five years, and EUR 1 billion longer term, which I guess is closer to 10. Could you please talk about the key pieces behind this, whether it's kind of geographically or customer segments where you can really introduce Altair to new customers? And I guess secondly on that, do they truly come on top of the underlying market growth, or should we think about those as accelerators to what is already a healthy underlying growth in this industry?
I guess to really drive it home, should we think about Altair business as a kind of $1 billion business in 2030 as it would have been if it just grew with the market or $1.5 billion with the $500 million synergies that you target?
Andrei, I'll take this one. I mean, the first thing we have to understand is that the portfolios are very complementary, and that's important. This will bring important synergies and value to our customers. As you correctly pointed out, there are significant revenue synergies of EUR 500 million midterm and EUR 1 billion on the long term. This is a lot of cross-selling. You have to understand that the revenue from Altair is mainly in the simulation business in the U.S. with more than 50% and less in Asia and in Europe. We are very strong with our simulation business, which is roughly of the size also of Altair's business. We're very strong in Asia. So there is a geographical footprint which helps us to actually cross-sell across geographies. We're also more on the channel business than they are.
We have, of course, elements like the SaaS transition, which we've done already. So the combination of the geographical aspects, the portfolio will enable us to drive the synergies across the simulation business, but also across the complete PLM business, which we have as more and more of these simulation tools actually go into EDA. You've seen the acquisition that some of our competitors have done in our EDA competitors in simulation basically shows that there's a new market. So to your point, we want to grow faster than the market. We want to take market share, and that's the ambition of doing that. And we've proven this with prior acquisitions such as CD-adapco that we're very capable of doing it. Now, coming to the revenue synergies, that's the second aspect. That's the ones which are going to come first.
We addressed elements of, I mean, there's the classical things we're doing with delisting, IT tools, tools in general, but we will also look at what else we can do. We will be very careful because there's key talent on how we're going to do the right sort of environment, but we're going to look at the complete aspect to see on where and what we would cut overall to be able to get those revenue synergies. We feel very comfortable doing it because we've done this also before when we delisted and took over Mentor Graphics. So both of them are ambitious but feasible and are very much with the ambition to take market share.
Got it. Thank you all.
The next question comes from Alexander Hübner from Reuters. Please go ahead.
Thank you very much. Can you hear me?
Yes, we can.
I've got just one, well, one question on the structure of the deal. In Altair's press release, they say it's $10.6 billion for the equity value, and you have an enterprise valuation of $10 billion. Can you explain where the difference is? This would assume that there's cash on their balance sheet that you would take over.
You hit the nail, Alexander. You're very right. There's give or take $500 million of cash that needs to be deducted and also a smaller portion of unvested equity awards that are going to be rolled into Siemens programs. That makes the difference.
Okay. Thank you.
The next question comes from Jeffrey Sprague from Vertical Research. Please go ahead.
Hey, thank you. Good morning, everyone, or good afternoon, everyone. Yeah, just back on the strategic big picture here, right? You've been strategically building out the software platform for a long period of time. Obviously, a big investment here. I think the rub for investors, right, is that you've got a very high-value software business already that arguably trades at low teens, EBITDA multiple, and maybe the same happens here, right? A great strategic fit fits your strategy, but in many respects, perhaps there's risk Siemens shareholders don't get "paid for it" through valuation. So you did mention maybe selling down Healthineers 5% or 10%, but what is your tolerance really for kind of the valuation disconnect in the stock and sort of the time that you're willing to let play out to see if this manifests in a valuation improvement over time?
Yeah, thanks for raising that question again and giving us an opportunity to shed a bit more light into the development of our software portfolio. I mean, in the meantime, including the current deal, we will have been spending give or take EUR 23 billion in software companies and the like over the course of the last 15 years or 17 years, to be accurate. And I think we have been building up a massive, broad, and very comprehensive software suite that is going to be even more relevant on the way forward, allowing to profitably end fast-growing development of our portfolio on the one hand side, and at the same time, paying into the sustainability solutions that we are providing to our customers. So we are literally made for the moment, and we feel very much encouraged to capitalize on that, what has been accomplished so far.
We also have been a good breeding ground, obviously, for digital business in the past. You may remember fiscal 2023. We didn't complete 2024 yet. Therefore, I'm referring to 2023 figures, EUR 7.3 billion of digital business. Adding the EUR 600 million, give or take, and assuming double-digit growth opportunities on the way forward, this will make us one, if not the relevant player in that field on the way forward. There's a massive consolidation going on in the market, obviously, and we consider ourselves to be a spearhead and frontrunner in shaping that market and also reaping the fruits of being the provider of relevant solutions for both automation, electrification, sustainability, and digitalization for our customers. So there's a massive paradigm shift going on, and we are clearly leading in that field.
We have been mentioning also time and again that we are not only investing in a really highly attractive and highly synergistic company with Altair, but at the same time, we are preparing the grounds for a massive acceleration of our digitalization initiatives within the company organically, so to speak. So I need to ask you for a bit more patience. On November 14th, we're going to share a bit more of that. But the point I'm trying to make, this is not the only cylinder we're firing on. We make sure that we are providing a comprehensive suite of portfolio opportunities to our customers, and we will be super relevant for the future development in this important field. Let me add one more element to that. You recognized also that Altair has certain strengths and investments in AI capabilities, high-performance computing as well. So do we.
AI comes, obviously, develops its value, in particular, if it accesses data. So the combination of the data which we generate from our hardware portfolio sitting on the shop floor, the domain know-how we have in combination with the simulation suite, the software suite on the one side, and AI-supported in its designs, engineering, any kind of less complex products is a huge lever for our customers to drive their development of products, shortening their cycle time, driving productivity in manufacturing, or leveraging the value of assets in using software.
Thank you for the comments. Appreciate it.
The next question comes from James Moore from Redburn Atlantic. Please go ahead.
Yes, good afternoon, everyone, and thanks for the opportunity. I think I'm clear on your arguments on the financial rationale. I wondered if I could go back to the asset and really what the degree of overlap is and what the split of Altair is in a bit more detail, if possible. Is it possible to break down how much of Altair is EDA simulation versus PLM simulation? And can you talk a little bit about where there is some duplication in the sense that I think Siemens already has some magnetics and mechanical? It's not just purely fluid and mechatronics. Could you say how much you already have in that and how much they already have in fluids and mechatronics on that side? And tied to this is the opportunity on the EDA simulation side.
Are we saying that scaling is failing with the limits of Moore's Law and Dennard scaling and that we need to start using physical simulation that you have been using, the CD-adapco and others now for some time, is increasingly going to become more important in the semiconductor world? And could you talk a bit about the vision around that side of it?
No, absolutely. I'll take this, James. This is Cedrik. So just for you, we had the overview that 75% is simulation, 15% is AI, 10% is roughly in the HPC. It's 15, 15, 70, depending on how you calculate it. The main customers, which Astra, sorry for that, Altair have is the automotive is the biggest part in defense, finance, tech, and then others. So to your question, there is a geographical match between the two, and there is in terms of which customers they are going after. They're basically matching also our opportunities. There is relatively little overlap, to be very honest, in the portfolio.
There is some, but the way this has been approached. So they have a tool which is not a CAD tool, but it's a simple tool to be able to come from the design process and do some simulation, which at the moment we're thinking, for example, we could integrate into our CAD tools to have CAD including simple simulation from the beginning. So the overlaps, I think, could be used to actually strengthen our portfolio, and we see very or relatively little sort of overlap in that direction. So the one point which you have is there's three things which are going to give us a chance to go forward. One, of course, there's the classical businesses which tended to be very simulation-heavy, which is the aerospace and auto, but more and more of those design capabilities go into everything from your headset, smart glasses, your appliances.
They include a mechanical and electrical, but also a software component, and having those capabilities, as I always said, we help design most of the smartwatches around with the capability we are acquiring. We are capable also, for example, if you let it fall from 20 feet on how to simulate that. Now, it is complementary. We expect that we can integrate it. There will be some products which we will have to see what we do with it, but it's relatively or actually quite small. The one opportunity, the EDA opportunity is big, but the current sales in EDA is relatively small outside HPC. They are selling a lot HPC, which is high-performance computing. You take workloads and put them forward into the EDA space.
But the big opportunity, as you were alluding to, James, is the capability as we're reaching the maximum of Moore's Law, which means that you cannot put more transistors on a chip. You start to stack the chips one over the next. And that basically means that you need to mechanically, electrically, and also from an electromagnetic point of view, start simulating them. This is why our competitors in this space were so interested in simulation. So this is a nascent, very fast-growing market. There is a lot of opportunities which we see in their portfolio, which we can integrate into ours, and we can accelerate it.
To simplify it, relatively low overlap, good sort of complementarity from a geographic and a product portfolio point of view, and a huge opportunity to take that capability into the EDA market, which is a fast-growing market, and to take this also outside the classical automotive and aerospace markets into actually a lot of consumer goods and others which integrate more and more technology together. I hope I answered your question.
Thank you so much, Cedrik.
The next question comes from Wilfried Eckl-Dorna now from Bloomberg News. Please go ahead.
Hello. I hope you can hear me. I just have a brief question, Mr. Thomas. You previously mentioned that you will actually plan to lower stakes in Siemens Energy and in Siemens Healthineers as well. Did I understand correctly that going down for the Healthineers stake from 75% - 65% would be a good position, as you said? Was the 65% correct? Just that one. Thank you.
Beatrice, no, I didn't say that. What I said is we have the privilege of choice, the choice having one strong pillar already in our cash box, if you will. This proceeds from the divestment of Innomotics with an enterprise value of 3.5 billion EUR. I said that we do have actually three listed shares in three listed companies, which are Siemens Healthineers, Siemens Energy, and another company called Fluence, which is not that material in nature from the shareholding. And of course, we have access with the best industry leading rating to bond markets, so debt financing, and we will find the best possible solution for us, including considering the best possible timing because the transaction is not going to be closed now, but most likely in the second half of calendar year 2025. That's why I asked you for some patience, you and the other audience.
What I said is that the magnitude of, give or take, 5% Healthineers share could be an indication if and when we pull the trigger. I never said it's going to be 10%.
Okay. I thought it was 5%. Okay, Healthineers shares. I understood that. Okay. Then I got that. Thanks a lot.
The next question comes from William Mackie from Kepler Cheuvreux. Please go ahead.
Yes, good afternoon. Thank you for taking the time. My question sort of wrapped into two parts. It relates initially, when we look at the multiple acquisitions that you've made across the portfolio of Siemens' existing industrial software, why could you not develop much of the capability you see in Altair yourself? What were the impediments to going alone rather than through acquisition? And then moving on from that, when we look at the portfolio beyond the Altair acquisition, is this then a portfolio that you would consider to be complete and fully aligned with the strategic vision for industrial software, or do you see other areas where your customers could benefit from incremental acquisition or capability within software to further broaden the value proposition that you bring to them?
Yeah, thank you very much for that question. Just to give you a reminder, starting with UGS in 2017, so 17 years, 2007, 17 years ago, we are summing up now 41 acquisitions in our software portfolio, which sums up to more than EUR 20, 22 billion, including Altair. So on your question, organic development, I mean, you can develop everything organically, but this takes time. Think about it, this company is 39 years old, so it took a long way to get there. This is really the strength. It's not a startup which exists since two years. They have 16,000 customers. They developed a portfolio. We also made a check on how happy are the customers with an NPS. They're extremely happy. This is an established base, and this is nothing you can develop or redevelop in a couple of years from now.
But this is also the value behind this company. Super strong, 16,000 customer base, very different areas, and a lot of experience which goes into this physical simulation of a software, make it easy to use, and so on. So that's the benefit you pay for. And of course, we do organic development in all our functionalities in our software suite, and this goes across our PLM, EDA, Mendix, Supplyframe. But this add-on is really something which is just made for us because it's really complementary on mechanical simulation or electromechanical simulation, crash tests, whatever you have. On the other side, we are very good in fluid dynamics, mechatronics, or the EDA. So very clear. And we are not done with developing our digitalization portfolio. We want to do more, but we do that organically as well.
We are spending more R&D money than our competitors in absolute and relative terms. And this is one of the reasons also the software area. We do a lot there. But we're looking also into other areas where we can still strengthen our portfolio also inorganically. And this could be also operational software. Here we are talking about design software. It could be operational software, workflow. Remember, we acquired Brightly, a different corner. We also made an investment in a marketplace with Supplyframe. It's very interesting. It's running very well. So we are looking into a broader space of what we can do to really ultimately build this, what we call the Industrial Metaverse, which is in the design phase, in the manufacturing phase, but on the operation phase of different assets and different areas.
So therefore, this is not the end, but it's a big, big, big step forward into really the consolidation of a market and creating, we say, the most leading industrial software portfolio which you have on the market. Last point, we do believe that AI currently plays the dominant role in just optimizing processes, I mean, driving productivity in software development. The ultimate pickup of real value for AI comes when you deploy it in really creating better products, less complex products. So folding AI capabilities on top of physics-based simulation and the access to data, that's a step up which we are moving forward. Again, both sides, Altair did it, we did it, and we want to bring it together and speed up in that space.
Thank you very much, Roland.
The next question comes from Philip Buller from Berenberg. Please go ahead.
Hi, good afternoon. Thanks for the question. It's on the cost synergy side. The 150 million strikes me as very high given the 600-ish of revenue at Altair and their current margin. So I appreciate there's costs from a delisting, but I would assume that's a fraction of 150 million. So what are you assuming in terms of facilities or headcount on the Altair side, or is there costs perhaps on the Siemens side that you can now go after? I guess I'm just a bit surprised by the scale. And as a quick follow-up to the answer to James's question, you suggested that there's very limited overlap. I would assume you're anticipating some test and challenge within the antitrust or regulatory process given the H2 2025 timeline. So what are those specific items where there are some pockets of overlap? Please, thanks.
Thank you, Phil, for the question. Let me take the cost synergy part. I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, from the delisting itself, you cannot make EUR 150 million of savings, obviously, but we do see a broad variety of action fields in that regard. Too early to quantify that. But I would like to share with you a couple of areas. I mean, just look into the IT landscape of a company like ours. I think we are fairly comprehensive for our internal processes. We do also have, I think, a great opportunity to harmonize sales tools and the like, and we will definitely also look into the processes associated to those tools. There will be plenty of opportunities.
We know that from past experience acquiring other companies, it's very insightful to take the time and then conclude what kind of process or solution or tool you're going to apply. Therefore, we do not jump to conclusions too early in that field, but we have quite a meaningful track record in understanding the dynamics of that, and it's going to kick in very soon after we have been closing the transaction. I'm very confident that we are going to accomplish that. There's also quite tangible aspects, and again, I won't quantify them, but you may imagine the share-based compensation for top executives is quite meaningful in companies like that, and this is going to change then, of course.
And another area that is quite interesting, and we also learned from past experience in that field, looking into the real estate opportunities, consolidating sites, and looking also into opportunities to best possibly also apply our own tools from Smart Infrastructure and buildings. This is quite an area for opportunities, and there is a couple of more. What we intend to do, and we always did that, once closing is done, we will nail that down. We will create action areas with dedicated responsibilities and accountability. We will follow up on each and every measure, and we will keep you updated then as we follow through with the degree of implementation of the measures we have been choosing. So the timelines are deliberately chosen based on experience and on a very thorough due diligence that has been executed. So we are very confident that we can master that.
That's why we also dared to look into multiple based on early synergistic potential.
Thank you. And on the antitrust topic?
Yeah, on the antitrust, I mean, we did quite a deep analysis on the overlap of the portfolios. We went through all the main countries and expect between two and maximum eight months to go through it. We don't envisage a major obstacle, but we, of course, have to go through the processes to be very honest. The key thing on the antitrust, the one thing we have also as a principle is a lot of those tools are extremely open tools. So, for example, our Teamcenter PLM tool, which we have, has more data from our competitors on our platform than anything else, so we don't close it. And the main product, for example, of Altair is HyperMesh, which is basically the pre and post-processing in the process of simulation. Same thing, it's very open to anyone else. So we're going through it.
We don't see very much of an overlap, and this is a very open architecture which enables anyone to be able to use that. So we've done the analysis. We'll confirm it as we go through it, but that's on the antitrust side.
Thanks. Thanks.
The next question comes from Jonathan Mounsey from BNP Paribas. Please go ahead.
Hi, thanks for fitting me in. Yeah, I guess I think you already touched on building the portfolio, adding simulation, perhaps maybe the final major piece in Digital Industries. I don't know if that's so, though. I mean, is this the sort of extent of the ambition for building a Digital Thread? Or if I turn our sights on Smart Infrastructure, I would imagine you have similar ambitions to kind of own the Digital Thread for that division as well. Can we expect that maybe that's more where we see M&A on the software side going forward and the DI journey to build what you've built is largely over, subject to maybe a few bolt-ons? Or is it really not possible to replicate what you've done in DI for Smart Infrastructure?
That's a very good one. We just triggered our One Technology Company program where we are stepping up in the way how we are using technology within our company. We are working on, and we made the first step already. We take technology and leverage it for the whole company. We talk about foundational technologies. These are technologies which we developed a couple of times, also in Smart Infrastructure, which we can use, build it the best one time, and scale it. And areas, for example, is identity management. Is it asset management? And of course, you mentioned the Digital Thread. This is another area because Digital Twins you see everywhere. We are working with Digital Twins when we build buildings, when we build manufacturing sites.
And by the way, we are using our tools, but we are using also an ecosystem and a growing ecosystem which we integrate in order to really make this offering as comprehensive as possible. So yes, the idea to leverage digital technologies and AI technologies across the whole portfolio of Siemens is definitely one of the targets. You see that, by the way, also in Mobility. Our engineers, they use Altair's technology to make crash tests for trains, high-speed trains. We use also our software in designing trains. This comes now together nicely. So we have already experienced. Siemens Xcelerator is the platform in the Mobility market where we bring together not only the way how you operate and maintain trains, but also the signaling system in an integrated manner. And again, we do that also for Smart Infrastructure. The design software is there different.
So we have a partnering there. We talked about it. But if it comes to asset management and workflow management, for example, in hospitals, this is a completely different area. But still, the whole idea behind creating a Digital Thread is we optimize it in the digital world and make it then in the real world happen and leverage the value of which gets out of it, also the speed. This is cutting across all areas. Sustainability. If you really want to drive a sustainability agenda, this sustainability doesn't respect silos. Is it either in the processes, not in the way how you're addressing any kind of vertical markets? So we are pulling strings together for the sake of really optimizing a value chain in energy savings, but also in recycling and the like.
So, you really touched the point that technology, as we see it, the data which we are using is getting more and more horizontal in the way how we address vertical markets in two dimensions. One is the market itself. The other one is design phase, production phase, and operation phase. And we do that. And in that area, of course, you have specificities. As I said, the design software in the product market is different from the construction market. But again, wherever we see a chance, we would go for an acquisition, or we are partnering, which is equally good.
Thank you.
The last question for today's call comes from Ben Uglow from OxCap Analytics. Please go ahead.
Hi, guys. Hope all are well, and thank you for taking the question. Look, I don't want to labor the point, but it was quite a prominent part of the press release and even the presentation, but just clarifying on the language on the listed subsidiaries and the sell down, Ralf, are you basically saying that you will sell down in connection with transactions? So if we've done a $10 billion deal and there's a post-Innomotics, a kind of $6 billion type shortfall, that those gaps will be filled from time to time intermittently with sell downs, or are you actually trying to say something more broad, i.e., that the overall Siemens finance capability will be handled via bigger sell downs, basically? I'm trying to figure out how much is just specific and how much is generic. Thank you.
I mean, we have been quite specific and intend to do so, but still, you need to keep the overall picture in the back of your mind, of course. Ben, you know us for ages, literally. I mean, there's always funding needs, also regular dues need to be renewed and so on. So it would be naive to believe this can be completely separated. But the specific intent to use the proceeds from selling shares in listed companies is clearly related to this transaction. And the timing, honestly, we will opportunistically look into matters. We will look into the time period between now. We, of course, do have a syndicated loan in place, so we will be able to execute at each and every moment. We are not playing, obviously.
We know exactly what we do, and we will determine the exact timing and amounts from those proceeds once we get closer to knowing when the transaction is going to be closed. And that's why I try to express with preemptive deleveraging, yeah, we will put measures in place that will not get us into a backloading exercise, putting pressure on ourselves. So we will keep you posted, of course, as we become more specific on the different instruments and measures we intend to apply. And what I also wanted to make sure, and I would like to use the opportunity to repeat that, we will definitely protect the share price of those companies being affected and will be mindful. And I have been using the example of the sell down of Siemens Energy shares so far.
I think we may say this was without any major noise and waves being created in the market, so this is what we intend to stand for.
Thank you, Ralf. That's understood.
Thank you, Ben. Keep well.
Thanks a lot to everyone for participating today. The communications and IR teams will be available for further questions. We are looking forward to talking to you on November 14th regarding our disclosure on Q4 and fiscal 2024 results. Have a great day and goodbye.
Ladies and gentlemen, this will conclude today's conference call, and you may disconnect your telephone. Thank you for joining, and have a pleasant afternoon. Thank you.