Earnings Call: Q4 2020

Feb 26, 2021

Great. Good morning. I would like to welcome all investors, analysts and other people who are listening into this or looking at this presentation, and we are happy to present our Q4. My name is Remku Westermann. I'm the CEO and Chairman of this company. And in today's presentation, yes, I would like to welcome all our new shareholders because we have really seen a lot of new shareholders joining the company, institutional shareholders, but also a lot of private shareholders. And that's the reason that we also decided to make this Q4 presentation a bit more extensive, which means that we also include some explanations about who we are and what we do and also, of course, an outlook and, of course, the numbers for Q4. And that's what we're going to go through. And I would like to start at Page 4, where we will first quickly introduce ourselves. Paul, our CFO, I would like to ask you to start presenting yourself. Thank you, Remco. So my name is Paul, CFO of Media and Games Invest. I started law and finance, worked afterwards for a sitting by the startup company called Shopkite Inc, where they hired by UniCredit Bank For the tech division where we cover data, digital companies did a lot of structured finance there and also Metremco in 2017 when we refinanced the German bond of our gaming And since 2018 now, I'm CFO of Media and Games Invest and responsible for finance controlling and Investor Relations. Yes, and my name is Graestemann. I'm Dutch National. I started economics. I started working in the oil industry, then into consulting, after that into digital markets, amongst others also working for Sonora, which is now called Telia Sonora, founded Bob Mobile, which was a value added service company, which still is, by the way, and it's now called ClickDigital. And yes, in 2012, I had the opportunity to buy Gamigo. And at that time, this trans gaming company fully owned by Axel Springer. And from, yes, acquiring Gamigo in that year, we have built Media and Games Invest, now working on this for 8 years. On the right side, you see a bit of the shareholding. So we've a total of 128,700,000 shares outstanding. I'm holding for a mine holding for roughly 33%. We have a free float of 58%, plus we have got on board Oaktree, which officially, by the way, is also in the free float, which is an, yes, big fund, private equity fund, which joined the company when we did the acquisition of Kinzhal, which I will elaborate on later. But they are in as a normal cornerstone investor, so no extra rights, but we're really happy to have them on board. I would move over to giving you a short overview on who we are and what we do on Page 6. Here you see, yes, on the title already, Media and Games Invest, we are a company we started as a gaming company, but we believe very much the synergy between the 2, media and games. So that's the 2 segments we are acting in. Geographically, as you see on the right upper side, majority of our revenues coming from North America, over 50%, including our latest acquisition KingsIsle, but that's only going to come in, in Q1 into the numbers. We will actually be over 60% in North America. Europe doing roughly onethree of the revenues and the rest of the world. We don't do direct to consumer publishing of games in China and Korea. There we work with partners. Also, there are some news later in the presentation. Yes, looking at our financial performance, which, of course, for investors, very important, not the only thing, but still very important. We are very proud that we have been able to show a very good performance in the last years. Last 6 years, we've been consistently being over 40% of growth of CAGR. And yes, the growth actually in 2020 was even bigger than that, but I'll come to that a bit later. Then a quick overview. We have been growing traditionally very much via M and A. So it's a buy and build model. It did over 30 M and A transactions since 2012. Market cap is now €500,000,000 plus. We listed on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange in Germany as well as on NASDAQ First North Premier in Stockholm. But since October, I'm really happy that we did that move and that we went to Sweden. Yes, extremely good dialogue with shareholders and very happy to be there. We have over 800 employees. On our gaming side, majority of the revenues coming from so called massive multiplayer games. Massive multiplayer games are games where people are playing together. They are leveling up a character, for example, or building a strong city. And they also call each other, so it's really a lot of interaction in the games, which makes that people are very long term in those games and that we have very sustainable revenue streams. Then we have also over 5,000 casual games, which we sell in subscriptions, which also gives very sustainable revenues or also advertising based, over 100,000,000 registered gamers. And we have the media side. Yes, for gaming, there's 2 basic key success factors. The one is the content, of course, new content, new games, but also extending the games. And the second one is user acquisition. And that's the reason that we decided a few years ago to also become strong on the media side, which is now really growing very nicely, has also shown very good traction in Q4. And there we have, yes, tons of ads that we are delivering over SEK 10,000,000,000 per month and also working not only for Gamigo, the gaming side, but also for several are external, how to say, at the titles. The revenues that we see, internal revenues are, of course, consolidated out, but that's only external revenues. I would like to go to the next page, Page 7. Here you see that we basically run the company in 2 units: 1, the gaming unit that you see on the left side with the mother brand in Gamigo Group, where all the companies that we acquire are being ranked under. Yes, very strong in game purchases, over 50% of our revenues in total and almost 80% of our EBITDA. Gaming is a very profitable business. It's a growth market, but it's also, of course, enabling a company to make good margins. And here, you see on the bottom that we did a 31% EBITDA margin in 2020. So really, yes, very nice, very profitable. On the media side, that's something that we're only doing for 4 years now. So that's not as matured as I would say as Gamigo at the gaming side, where each acquisition is really a simple add on. The media side, we're still building the, how would I say, the mother ship. And that's what you see here also a bit in the numbers. I mean, revenues are very nicely developing, but we are still not fully happy with the EBITDA margin. We did 10% EBITDA coming from, let's say, below that. But we're still working on raising the synergies, getting, yes, more synergies between the media company. We're connecting everything, we're integrating all the companies on both sides into Westech, and that helps, of course. So our outlook here is that we are willing want to move to 15% to 20% EBITDA and maybe even a bit higher. Coming to the next page, Page 8. Why do we run media and gaming? We believe very much in efficiency and scale in, yes, doing things better and more effective. And that's what you see here. This is a very simple and actually simplified example. For a standalone gaming company, on the left side, you typically for mobile gaming app would pay EUR 0.15 per install and have make an ad income of €2 per 1,000 ad views. If you're an integrated media gaming company, then of course, you also have to margin from the media side, which allows you to go one step further to just get the extra user on board. So it gives a lot of advantages, of course. And here you see that typically a user acquisition is €0.10 per install and that we get €4,000 ad income per 1,000 ad views, which means that we are working with a 200% better efficiency. And that, of course, makes a huge difference. On top of that, that's also the big advantage that we can see the data throughout the whole chain. So we have a lot more visibility on data, which makes optimization even easier. Coming to the next slide. Yes, what happened in the last quarter. And that's a lot happened. And this is only highlights. And we took only 3 highlights because once we learned 3 is what people can remember. But just to show you some of the real highlights of the last quarter. The first one is Atlas Ropes. That's a game that has been launched in early access. We're really happy with that. It's a very innovative tactical game. And yes, it's a game that was originally acquired when we did the acquisition of, let's say, in the U. S, it was part of our one of our acquisitions. And we stopped the game at that time. Players were unhappy. The monetization didn't work. And it has now fully internally our internal game development team been developed. And first reaction is we still have some tech issues at the moment. Reactions are really very positive. So we are also looking at when we are really going to launch it. Then the second one is Archeage. Yes, big game that we have, big MMO introduced the Chronicles and Rise of Nylia. 2 substantial content update that we did in Q4, which also, of course, generated very good response on the player side but also resulted in good revenues. Then, yes, Trove, one of our other big MMOs, their update was launched also for console now. It was earlier, we had to launch it already for PC, PMAT now on the console we saw it and that, yes, was also very positive effect. There were many, many, many more things, but everything together, we had a 36% revenue growth quarter on quarter. Q4 normally or seasonality wise is already a bit stronger. But in this, we were really also ourselves positively surprised and happy that we were able to, yes, over exceed on the revenue and of course also on the EBITDA. And then on the media side, the Durbgroup, there's a lot of, yes, things going on, further integrating The company has been doing this now for a few years, as I said before, but one of the big things is that we are adding more and more partners, especially on the gaming side. We have a lot of experience in gaming and the media companies are not only working for gaming companies, but we see that with the experience that we have, we are also able to really attract a lot of gaming companies advertisers, but also as people that make their advertising inventory available. Then the Platform 161 acquisition that we did last year. It's also now really integrated team wise. Technology still, we have few things to go, but it expands our demand offering and we have also seen good traction there in the Q4 last year. And then last one, we did a smaller, what is an asset to deal, we are expanding our so called SDK base, which is which means that we have the possibility to serve ads inside of mobile apps. And yes, with App Monet, we added a lot of extra apps to that. We have also improved our tech stack there. So also that has been really adding to growth. And also on the media side, we have seen a quarter by quarter growth actually a little bit bigger than on the gaming side with 43%. So we're really very happy with the Q4. Yes, coming to Page 10, a bit more overview of the Q4 in financials, always a bit boring to read but great to look at. And you see the net revenues, they amounted in the Q4 to EUR 48,700,000, which was last year, the same quarter was 28 sorry, 2019 because we are already 21. So in 2019, we had 28 EUR 2,000,000. So we had a 73% revenue increase, which is, of course, very strong compared to the, let's say, average a bit of EUR 40,000,000, which is already good that we normally do. Adjusted EBITDA also improved very much. So we did a €10,100,000. So happy that we crossed the €10,000,000 EBITDA in the quarter, which is also 74% increase versus the same quarter in 2019. Also, our EBIT is really strongly improving. We had also here 64% increase, yes, EUR 5,800,000 it was in the Q4 of 2020. Then the leverage ratio, as you all or most investors know, we are also working with bonds, public bonds, also have happy bondholders, of course, at the setup. And but we are really very much managing the leverage. We had a EUR 1,900,000 in December 30 last year, so December 2019 and a EUR 2,100,000 as of December 31, 2020. So also here, we're very well in the back end part rather, a bit on the low side. We try to manage the leverage between 23, of course, for the advantages of all. Then yes, on the guidance, we outperformed strongly. So we did 17% more revenues altogether in 2020, which was mainly also due to the Q4. And the EBITDA target was also strongly outperformed by 35%. So we really see that the business model that we're running, which is acquiring companies, making them more efficient by integrating them and also getting revenue synergies out of that and then also investing in organic growth that it really works out. And yes, 2020 was, of course, a very special year with corona, which we especially noticed in the Q2 when the lockdowns were really followed by everybody, I think that was not as strong in Q3 and Q4. But we see also that a lot of our projects are really leading now to strong growth on the revenue side but also on the EBITDA side. Then coming to the next page, Page 11, a bit of an outlook, what's all coming up. And looking at the time, I will not go through every detail here, But we're really excited about Heroes of Twilight. It's a mobile game where we have the worldwide license, yes, which we are preparing for launch. It's based on the Little Words of Twilight that some of you might know, which is a very well known IP that has been very successful. And yes, it's a turn based role play game. It has dynamic day and night changes, so some really special night things in it. So looking forward to see it launched and would invite all of you, of course, to then also play it. 2nd mobile game, and it's also emphasizing that we also want to move more towards mobile. I mean, we're very happy with our online and console games. But on the mobile, we also have a good opportunity to grow. And that's the reason that we also signed a second game. The game has been developed by Behaviour Interactive, which is very well known Canadian studio. And yes, it's playing golf and having a lot of fun with it. So also looking forward to that one. But there, we have a bit more development work to do, so that's probably going to take a bit longer, but still aiming at 2021 launch. Then we have Desert Operations. Yes, that's one of our strong games on the online side, and that's the one where we really are preparing now to get it on mobile and to also give the players the possibility to play the game on mobile, but also to, of course, attract new players. And yes, that's going very well, also internally developed. To say a few words here, we have, let's say, a lot of internal game developers. But the one thing that we're really not doing is developing fully new games because we think that we're still too small for that. And from a risk perspective, that doesn't make sense. So that's the reason that we are focusing on improving games that we have or improving that's the games that are almost ready or like in yes, so there's a lot of opportunities there. The other thing that we do, of course, is bring it to other, how to say distribution means or to other outlets like desktop rights to mobile. The other thing that we worked on drove bringing it to Nintendo Switch. Also, that's what you see in the next point. Looking forward to that, we are also moving forward to that. We're working with external studio And it, yes, looks very promising. And the other thing that we're doing, as I said in the introduction, we're not publishing ourselves games in Asia, but we have a strategic cooperation with Epogen Games, which is a strong publisher and which is now bringing Trove into South Korea. They're working also preparing the launch. So also very, very far. Then on the media side, yes, also 2 really important things, Verve Edge. That's the name that we chose. It's a project that we have been working on for over a year. As people that are acquainted with the media side know that, let's say, the identifiers are disappearing and that some of the big players like Google, Apple are more and more getting to walled gardens. And for example, the IDFA, which is the identifier from Apple, is being skipped out of the market. So there is which makes identifying of users a more difficult. We have our answer to that is Verve Edge. It's being rolled out now, and it enables us to really leave audiences on the device. So we don't have share personal data anymore away from the device, but we can target on the device. It's very cool technology. It's also data dispensing for it, and be rolling it out and getting very good response from that. So that's something that will also drive the growth in the next quarters. And then enterprise solution, full stack SaaS, yes, a lot of technical terms here. But what we're doing with our media we are all integrating the platforms that we have. It's mostly SaaS technology, programmatic, automatic bidding. And one of the things that we were able to acquire was Nexstar Digital, which we closed the deal in Q1 and which we're now also integrating which is also giving us the possibility to steer our advertisements on Connected TV. And yes, that's also helping to leverage our portfolio and bring it further. And the next thing that's also ready for launch in 2021 or made ready for launch is our hybrid cloud, which will, again, for especially gaming companies, be a very great way of further targeting and effectively spending advertising money. And then on the bottom, you see, yes, there's tons of other things which would go too far now, but a lot of stuff in the pipeline. Yes, games are all looking at updates going forward. We have several other game launches coming up. There's also some more that we are at the moment negotiating for new games. So we don't do new game felt it ourselves. But of course, we are launching games that other companies developed. So there's a lot of cool things in the pipeline. But we're always a bit careful here because we don't want tell it too early because it's all software and software can always take a bit longer from experience. So we would like to really announce games when they're shortly before launch. We made a bit of an exception with Heroes of Twilight and Golf Champions because we wanted also to show that we are really seriously going more into the mobile side. But also there, yes, we will only launch the games when they're really good and not before that. So that's a bit of, yes, outlook. Then come to the next slide, games market, Page 13. Those that know us already know that we the slides more often, so we'll quickly go through it. Gaming market started in 1974 with Pong, which was 2 very simple tennis bets on a computer and it's now in SEK 160,000,000,000 market where bit of 50% is mobile, but also console and online are a great big segment. It's mass markets. Yes, it's not only kids playing, it's also in terms of some numbers here on the slide for Germany, over 41% of female, 29% are over 50 years old. So it's really a mass market. What you see on the right bottom side is our split of revenues on the different months PC client, 72%, the biggest console, 10% browser, 12%, which is also PC And then 6% on mobile. So mobile is underrepresented, but also it's good to realize that mobile is the most competitive of all the gaming segments with over 3,000 game launches per month and over 80% of that on mobile, also with Apple and Google being strong gatekeepers that take 30% of the gate, mobile is much more competitive, and we didn't want to go into mobile before we had a bigger size, which we have now. And that's also the reason that we go into mobile because also from a multiplatform publishing perspective, it really makes sense. Coming to the next page, Slide 14. Yes, on the left side, you see that we have well diversified revenues. On the gaming side, the Camillo MMOs making roughly 24%. And these aren't sorry, these are normalized figures. So what we put in here is Kingsisle acquisition that we did in January this year. So it's not in the 2020 figures, but we wanted to put it in here to show you also that Kingsdale, yes, it's a very major acquisition, And it's also adding majorly to our MMO base with 15% of the total revenues. But it's also, let's say, not the suddenly that the company has totally changed. And we're looking at into more acquisitions, of course. Then advertisements to make money with games, it's here and make money with the PC casual games and the mobile casual games. Those are the other segments. They're smaller. And then on the media side, we have basically a programmatic side, which is the supply side platform and the demand side platform, which are fully SaaS services. And then we have our agency services, but I'll come to that in a bit later. On the right side, you see the way how we grow. Yes, what we're doing now for over 8 years consequently is M and A, 3 to 5 cases per year, tendency to buy also a bit bigger case. We don't want to buy too big cases because they normally tend to be relatively much more expensive, multiples go up then. So we would like to stick a bit in a certain field of M and A. Then on the middle, what you see is organic growth. Yes, you saw some examples before. So of course, improving games that we have, getting more users into the games, internationalizing them, getting them on different platforms who are also doing very big updates like Trophy Alsos 1 that we did in 2020 or Arguage Unchained, which is a licensed game where the developer made the big update. But those things are really driving our growth. And on the media side, yes, it's also more supply, so more advertisers more retro typing spots and also Verve Edge that I just introduced, OpenGuard, which is also a possibility to make our complete platform white label available for customers and had a bidding for Connected TV, as I said, also something that we've already shown some results in Q4, and we are even expecting to show more results also in the next quarters. Then coming to Page 15. Yes, also quickly going through this. This is our core, this is our heart. MMOs and Wizards 101, really proud about it. It's one of the games that was part the Kingstile acquisition that we did, the Harry Potter of online games. And what you see in the middle, that's really, yes, really core. But gaming segment is huge and there's all kind of different categories that games that people play only for a few hours or a few seconds. But MMOs, metal multiplayer games are really played for years. And Fiesta online, our oldest one is 14 years old. This Whizzer 1 101 is 12 years old. They are not old because they get renewed all the time. But what makes them very, very attractive, of course, also from a financial point of view is that in this case, over 50% of the players are more than 5 years in the game. And this is, of course, very sustainable, trustworthy revenues for the long term. So we need to treat the game well. We need to treat the game as well, of course. We may need to make them happy, content updates but also active community management. And then we really have, yes, very stable working days in the company. On the next page, Page 16, you see that this is Wizzed 101 is not it's only a single example, but we have many more of those and also not all of them on this page. But 2 extreme examples, Desert Operations, which I also talked about before, Strategy and Build Game, yes, there we have over 80 sent from direct news coming from people over 5 years in the game. That's, of course, extremely loyal and very good, but the graphics were outdated. We have data graphics, and we're now slowly rolling that out and also testing marketing response on that. But the first things are really positive. So we have a lot of potential also there for new users. Then Don't Charge Field, it's a subscription service, casual game subscription service, which you see on the left bottom side. Also, they're extremely loyal user base, so it must not always being a massive multiplayer game, but most of our games are massive multiplayer games. Coming to the media part on Page 18. Yes, market for media, and we haven't been talking that much about it in the past, but it's very important to realize that we're also becoming a strong player in this segment. Mark for Media is huge. So we talk about almost $400,000,000,000 at the moment worldwide at the moment. There's many different segments from the search engine market to do better, but also social, connected TV, as I mentioned before. Strangely enough, it's very similar to the gaming market, very fragmented, low entry barriers. So a lot of small companies where we say companies that are too small, and it makes sense to be acquired and to build something bigger. And yes, a few very strong players like Google, Canx and Facebook that, of course, take a big part of the cake, but that are all moving to closed gardens. And as such, also a lot of advertisers are looking for the alternative, and that's in the open market, which is roughly 50% of the total market. And that's where we are acting and where we see a lot of potential. So a lot of M and A potential, a lot of technical potential and a company that gets bigger, gets more efficient, so has even more possibilities in this market. On the next page, Page 19, yes, a bit further, what are we doing on the media side? I would like to start on the right side. Basically, this is the total value chain. So an advertiser uses the demand side platform, then you have the data optimization in between And then you have the supply side platform where the advertising spots are booked or are automatically auctioned. And then you have the publisher who's basically also the gaming company who makes this the ad spot in this game is available. We cover the whole chain. So with Camilo, of course, we have a big advertiser in house and we have a big publisher in house, but also working, of course, with external ones, and we have the full technology to do everything in between. And that makes us very efficient. You see on the left upper cite that 62% of our revenues are programmaticSaaS really full automated bidding processes. We're strong very strong on the supply side and not as strong yet on the demand side. We're also working on that to get bigger. So the CTV acquisition that we did is also helping us there a lot. And then we have agency services, can be influencer, can be user acquisition optimization, but those are people that are putting the buttons or doing the creative work to make it to do the campaigns. So that's a bit more service to the customers, and they are also mostly using the technical platforms. On the bottom, you see that we are not only working for gaming companies, but also for a lot of other strong brands because strong brands also like to advertise into games and also games, of course, like to advertise in media of other companies, not only into other games. Brings me to the next page, Page 20. Looking at the time going through, it should go a bit faster, I think. This is influencers. Yes, influencers are very important. They are streaming on Twitch. They are, let's say, showing things on YouTube or on Instagram. And we have seen that especially for game launches, they're really effective. And yes, we like to use them for bigger updates and for bigger things. And this is an example of Archane, which was really very nice case, it was actually the one first big case, therefore, we are still very proud of that where we used influencers, and we're using them a lot now on all our games where we have big launches. Then coming to the next chapter, which is a bit different topic, ESG. Yes, we are really strongly into ESG and it's rated as very important. And ESG has, of course, a lot of different aspects. Going too far now to go into everything, but there's a lot listed here. But just to pick out a few, data centers are for us, course, extremely important for running the games and also running the media. And there is the carbon footprint, very important. So we're really selecting media, our partners on the base that they use renewable energies. And yesterday, COVID with Google, where they were saying they want to be actually carbon negative, not even neutral but negative, which we will, of course, also, yes, something that we really like a lot. Then we also involve our gamers into this topic. So we have, for example, the Eden Reforestation Project, where we in our games give the possibility for our games to plant virtual trees And for a virtual tree planted, there are also real trees planted. Yes, a lot of other things happening, but I would like to go to the next Page 23. Each of our games, of course, is an environment by itself. It's a world by itself with a lot of people having their avatars there. They're interacting. So for us, it's very important to make our games a safe place for everybody and of course also with child protection. We have clear rules in our games. For example, no gambling, yes, code of conduct for each game. We have active community management. And yes, nothing is perfect. So of course, we have also improvement targets mostly on the technical side to really make sure that this is, yes, obeyed and worked in the game too, so that everybody can have fun in the game and we can really enjoy playing the games. Coming to the strategy on Page 25, very quickly going into this, buy, integrate, build and improve. It's basically a 3 step approach. We're doing this now for 8 years. The 1st 4 years, we only concentrated on buying companies and integrating them. And since last 4 years now, we also integrate let's say, focusing much more on really organic growth, which is by further improvements, more users into there, which is also the media part and internationalization, of course. Coming to the next slide, Page 26, yes, M and A is part of our DNA, and we have done over 30 cases now altogether. Historically, we have been focusing a lot on distressed because they have a very good return on invest, but are not so easy to plan, of course, because if they come, you either have to take them or they are gone. And with distress, we are looking at, let's say, under 24 months payback, including burn rate, including restructuring costs, which we are typically actually we're under 18 a month. But we are also moving more and more to and as we have seen the Kingsisle deal to EBITDA positive cases where we like to buy below 6 times EBITDA multiple, but that's also taking into account synergies. So we can also buy for 10x EBITDA and maybe next up to date even a bit higher if there's enough synergy in the case on the revenue side and on the cost side that we can come to these target numbers. So we really like to drive also our M and A side with a very effectiveness and efficiency focus in the yes, looking forward. Target size has increased a bit, typically EUR 5,000,000 to EUR 40,000,000 revenues per year. We'd like to avoid a bit larger target because there's strong bidding processes and we have seen some buildups in the market that we would not like to pay for gaming companies and also for media company. So that's really what we try to steer out. Well defined processes for the negotiation and getting the deal done as well as for the integration of the companies. And then we have a go through pipeline, which I have a slide later in the presentation to show you a bit of the targets. Coming to Page 27. Yes, we integrate the companies. I said that before going very quickly through, you don't need MD on each company. It makes it much easier to steer, of course, to manage and a very big savings on technology. Yes, the game companies that we bought had 30%, 40% of technology cost of their revenues with getting everything into cloud, making it more efficient, getting better contracts, we were able to decrease the technology cost by 50% and even 70% and more. As you see 2 examples. Trine World is a gaming example and Twerd is a media example here. Next page, Page 28. Trine World's company, this was yes, this transaction we acquired. They've been spending more than SEK 450,000,000 before we acquired. We bought it from the banks. We bought only the assets that we wanted and have been optimizing the company very soon. And here you see really that these are very nice investments to do. We invest also in the game. So we saw also strong organic growth. And yes, we're really happy that in the 1st year already, we did some positive EBITDA and substantial revenues. And in the year after, we were even able to grow this with all the things that we did. Page 29, KingsIsle, big acquisition that we did, they call it transformative acquisition. Yes, based on the 1st 9 months of 2020, it would have added 60% to our EBITDA. So really, yes, making us a lot stronger. Great team. We're now working with them for a few weeks, and it's really they're extremely motivated. We see so much potential in this game. Yes, we paid $126,000,000 for it. That's also an earn out where I expect when looking at the numbers that we will pay also part of that. And yes, as part of it originally were supposed to take some shares. That's yes, we've got some discussions there. And then Oaktree Capital stepped in. That's the reason that Oaktree came on board very recently. Yes, developing well. And here you see the EV to EBITDA. We paid 6 times in certain if you're just meeting a next earnout step, it might even go up to 7 times, but it's between 6 or 7 times that in the end we will pay for this company. So very nice and we are very confident. This is also showing that with own IP and a lot of focus, gaming company can be extremely profitable. You see 66 percent EBITDA, which, of course, is going to add to our numbers from Q4 Q1 onwards in 2021. Next page, Page 30, M and A. Yes, here you see some of the and they're, of course, anonymized, But we have, let's say, 3 gaming and 2 media deals where we are really intensively talking at the moment where we see possibility to get them on board. We don't want all 5 of them. That would be too much because we also want to keep focus and be able to integrate them. But it would be nice to get, yes, a few of these on board. And as I said, it's only yes, we are only in February, so there's a lot to go still in this year. Looking forward to do something else here. Then I would like to hand over to Paul to the final part. Paul, up to you. Thank you, Renko. So here we start on Page 32 with a summary of the financial performance of the last 6 years. There we reached now EUR 140,000,000 revenues and EUR 29,000,000 EBITA in 2020. So really outperformed our financial targets And have now reached on an average CAGR of 45% in the last 6 years and therefore, of course, a very strong profitability growth for very long periods already and even outperformed the 67% growth in 2020, our CAGR 45% Over the last 6 years. We have diluted our EBITA margin a bit in the last 2 years in 2019, 2020 as we also acquired more media companies To put more focus also on organic growth for our games, where we have accelerated actually also organic growth, which we have decreased over the last years. And now as we are also more looking a bit more into the acquisitions on the gaming side, which For example, also with KingsIsle, there is an the market expects a strong increase in line with us as well of EBITA margin during 2021. We have also, for that reason, included the consensus data, which are available also on our website and all the analyst reports. So that's the average of all the analyst expectations. And there we see a very strong increase to 29.1% in EBITDA margins. And that's a little bit also going now Page 33, what we see and that's also what we have highlighted during the Kingsisle acquisition that we're adding more than 60% group EBITDA On a pro form a basis, so Keesa will be first consolidated in Q1 2021. I saw on the last week that there were some questions That was already contemplated in Q4. That's not the case. So 2021, it will be. And therefore, Q4 It's even stronger because Gintal is not included there. Looking a bit more on the pro form a numbers here, you can see that For the 1st 9 months, MGI would have done €92,000,000 revenues €19,000,000 EBITDA on a stand alone basis. And in Kingsisle, With €80,000,000 revenues and €12,000,000 EBITA for just 9 months in 2020, we would have to end up there with €109,000,000 revenues and €31,000,000 EBITA, Therefore, increasing the EBITDA margin on a pro form a basis from 21% to 28%. And that's also a little bit what you can see now in the consensus data 2021, and this is the main reason why the EBITA margin increased so substantially. Let's actually achieve that. KingsIsle has a very strong EBITDA margin of 66%. Yes, they fully own the IP of the games. They have a very efficient infrastructure. And as Remco pointed out already, a very sustainable revenue streams where more than 50% of revenues is coming from players more than 5 years in the games, which means you need limited user acquisition cost and therefore can reach a very solid sustainable EBITA margin of 66%, Which is also sustainable in the long run. And therefore, yes, again, Truly Transforming acquisition, adding more than 60% EBITDA to the group And more than 20% revenues on a pro form a basis. Looking now a little bit more into the 4th Quarter revenue and EBITA development. Also on the left side, you see the revenue development. Here, you see that we ended Q4 2020 It's all time highs reaching SEK 48,700,000 in revenues, which is on a last 12 months basis SEK 140,000,000. And what we can also see On the purple line is that we have really managed to grow quarter on quarter every year Substantially and therefore, yes, reached all time highs than in Q4. And also on the EBITDA side have grown 74% in Year on year, reaching 10,100,000 in EBITA and on a last 12 months basis, 29,100,000 And therefore, also increased our profitability substantially. Looking now on Page 35, a little bit more into the segment performance where we have started In Q1 2020, we also report the P and L revenue and EBITA for both segments. Here we see also very strong increase on the game segment of 76% in Q4 compared to Q1 2020, With all time highs also in total EBITDA of SEK 7,700,000, so very strong increase. As a lot of new players came in and stayed also in the games and also all the Bigger DLTs and content updates we deliver to the games during 2020 have been well received by the players. On the media segment, we also see a very strong increase in revenues compared to Q1, but also during the year of now 92% And also reached all time highs in terms of EBITDA with SEK 2,400,000 in Q4 with EBITDA margin of 10%. That was also the target to reach 10%, which we want to grow to 15% to 20% midterm. And as we're scaling also in the media segment, we expect that to be achieved already during 2021. Coming now more a little bit more on the revenue diversification of MGI. And as Remku pointed out already, we have also decided to For the Kingsisle already here on a pro form a basis for 2020 and to really show how the company will look like now also during 2021. And here, we also will be very well diversified. So even KingsIs, which are which has very big games, such as 1 on 1 and Pirate101 will make 50% of the group's revenues. And therefore, yes, less than 50% obviously It's coming from the top games, and therefore, we still have no hit exposure and being well diversified. Same also counts on the right side for the media divisions where we have very strong supply side platform, which is mainly task driven, demand side platform, task driven and also agency services we offer to third party Preciselysis. Now looking a bit more on the revenue split on Page 37 between licensed versus owned MMO games. And here we started with the fifty-fifty split in 2019. And as we then said, okay, we will build our organic growth game launch Pipelines, we're really talking about game launches based on licensed games because we don't want to make this greenfield development starting from the scratch, Developing an MMO game for €5,000,000 to €50,000,000 and then risking that taking the investment risk. So that's something we don't do. And therefore, Tine more license deals where we also announced now Golf Champions and Heroes of Twilight. And then 2019, we have been very successful with that, Increasing the license revenue share and the games like Arcade and Cent has also been ever growth resistant then, but nevertheless, Also put more focus now on our IP owned games and have also professionalized our game development in the last 3 years substantially. And therefore, we're able now, especially in 2020, and to deliver much more content updates to our IP owned games like 12 Delves, which was a very big DLC And therefore, I've grown now our IP owned revenue share in the MMO games to more than 50% of our portfolio, which will also drive profitability of the group As we don't have to pay the 25% to 30% license fee for these revenue streams. Coming now a bit more on Page 38, on our Operating cash flow and CapEx development. 1st of all, maybe also important to mention the numbers have already been reviewed by the auditors, and that's also what you can find in our Q4 report. So it's still unaudited but reviewed and therefore agreed with the auditors. So we're starting with operating cash flow of 300,000 in 2014 has substantially increased that to more than €25,000,000 now during 2020, With a very strong free cash flow of SEK 21,000,000 and then operating cash conversion of 124%. And on the right side, we have 2 CapEx items. It's maintenance CapEx for the further development of our IP owned games. So it's, for example, 12 Delves, But also sequels like Atlas Rooks, that's the investments which are allocated there and which are also for organic growth but also for keeping the revenue stable And adding costumes, new character classes, new level caprices, all kind of things to the NLO games. And then we have also expansion CapEx, which Investments in M and A, but also investments in IP rights and the game licenses, like, for example, investments in Heroes of Twilight, Golf Champions And all these kind of things, and that's what you can find in the SEK 33,100,000, which we have increased substantially as we did more M and A Well, as we did a lot of M and A also in 2020, but also signed more game licenses to gearing more towards stronger organic growth during 2021 and beyond. Coming now on Slide 39 to our net leverage development and also a little bit the risk profile of MGI. Here we started with 7x in 2014. That's shortly after Remco took over Gamigo back in the days And have delevered pretty fast actually to 3x in 2015 and have then since then traded between 23 on an annual basis In terms of net leverage, despite the fact that we're doing 3 to 5 108 transactions per year, but as we're also increasing free cash flow substantially from year to year And also adding additional EBITA, our net leverage ratios are between 23. And that's also what we have set as a financial target in last year, really keeping the net leverage between 23, and that will also be the case, including the Kinstaal acquisition. And despite from that, we have also set revenue pay of 25% to 30% with an EBITA margin of 25% to 30% and the EBIT margin of 15% to 20. And then actually, if you look now at the Kingsisle acquisition and also what the analyst consensus data says, you can see that you can tick the box There already. And yes, therefore, 2021 is already more in the pockets, but we have also set these targets for further years. And if we do further M and A and gearing more towards organic growth, there's also a high likelihood that we can outperform our revenue payer. But yes. And now then, I would like to hand over to Remco again for a last comment. Yes, thank you very much, Paul. Yes, coming to the summary, just giving a short overview of what we are doing, And this is not going to change. We did it in 2020. We also continue to do this, running this company with fast growth and a very sustainable and substantial EBITDA margin with a low business risk focus. There's a lot of dreams in the gaming market and a lot of people that are playing lottery. We try to not do that, which means we're focusing on MMO games with steady, sustainable cash streams. Strong organic growth, of course, very important. And increasingly, we're growing on the organic side. Gameplay as a service update, you'll see game launches also on the media side, as I showed before, and that's also what you see here. Gaming is supported by the media unit, And the media unit is coming stronger by itself, but it helps us with efficient user acquisition, clear cost and data USB. Then we have Synergetic M and A, yes, done over 30 accretive transactions, 2 already this year and we also have pipelines to do a bit more. Integrating our acquired targets is another thing that makes us a bit different and where we really believe in and which is also showing as you see in the numbers that it's really helping us forward to be profitable and efficiently growing. Economies of scale is the central word here, I would say. That brings me to the end of the presentation. And yes, would like to hand over to the moderator for the question part. Thank Our first question comes from Ken Rolfe from Jefferies. Please go ahead. Hello, gentlemen. Congratulations on the year, by the way, and the beginning to 2021. A couple of questions. One was on the media side. What gets you to the target 20% EBITDA margins? Is it Simply kind of the continued growth of the business on the cost base that you have and the kind of leverage effect And also related or is it something else? And related to that, also, are there still particular Gaps or opportunities that you'd like to address kind of in the tech stack and the services that you're offering. I think it's a very interesting element to the business. Secondly, thinking more on probably on the game side, but generally, Given that you're sometimes buying businesses that are either distressed or certainly where perhaps The game that you're buying is kind of underappreciated like at Kingsisle where the guys maybe had got focused on another area on mobile and Maybe neglected or at least not taking the full opportunity of Wizard101 and Pirates. Do you suffer any kind of churn in the staff? Certainly, the gamers seem to welcome what you're doing, and I I think they would. But does it do you because that's something that people always worry about with video games acquisitions is kind of If a company is in trouble or if you try and change things, how will the staff react? And then finally, kind of related to that, You talk about maintenance CapEx and expansion CapEx. That's basically people, I guess, that's or more people Spending more time or the outsourced more time. What's happening to kind of what do you think you need to do to the Staff base of a business like King's Isle, are the existing staff sufficient? Or do you need to kind of maybe add some more people to support more content? Or maybe it can be done by outsourcing. And obviously, some of the Asian stuff you're doing at Trove and so on is kind of being done by external partners, so not on your cost base. Thank you very much. Partners, so not on your cost base. Thank you very much. Yes. Ken, thank you very much. I think I'll take the first part of it, and Paul can say a few words about CapEx later. Yes, coming to the media side, how do we want how do we get to the 20% EBITDA. It's many folds, I would say. The one, of course, is indeed more critical mass. The larger you get, the more efficient you get. And especially in the media side, you have certain so called listening costs that you need to be into auctions to really get the data and to be able to if you are going to bid or not. There is a certain level. And if you get open with more volume, the costs don't go up anymore. So that's absolutely a revenue effect or, let's say, growth effects. Then you have a lot of technical optimization possibilities like what we do with smart throttling that we don't bid on everything, that we only bid if there's demand. So those things that you can optimize. And we're seeing the same thing in the media companies as we saw also on the gaming side, that a lot of those companies are too small to invest in this kind of optimizations and that they don't have to focus on it also and partly also running with extremely expensive technology contracts. So if you also see now, I mean, for example, now with our latest acquisition, they have still server contracts or data center contract that runs until next year. And only after that, it will be full saving for us. So there is a lot of different things that we can do to make it more efficient, which is, yes, on our intelligence side, our improvement side, but also critical mass and just waiting in certain cases. Then The second point is what we want to do on the technology side. Yes, technology that makes the whole ad tech business very interesting, IDFA getting out to market, the market developing more and more meaningful programmatic. New segments coming into programmatic like CTV, Connected TV is really growing very strongly. But also we think, yes, there are several other segments that are much more possibilities and optimization things. And a lot of companies are only doing certain parts, so only DSP or only SSP. And we have seen now by connecting those that it really makes sense. So for us, it's really, yes, further ticking the top how to say it, ticking the boxes. There's a few things on the data side that we would like to add on the creativity side. And also, we would like to integrate Chroma, of course, but it has nothing to do with technology. And yes, very excited by the 2 projects that I've showed before, the Verve Edge project, which is really very cool, where there's a lot of interest in the market and also the, yes, connecting out tech stacks, which is giving a lot of efficiency and the barges that are connected. And then I'll take the first part about staff. Yes, when we do acquisitions, some people let's say, some people like us, some people don't like us. We have a certain style, of course. The first thing that is very important that our acquisitions become part of the family. So that's not something like we acquire you and you have to obey. I think that's very important. We are now melting pot with cultures from over 30 companies, different nationalities, but also different company cultures where in the end, the connecting thing for the culture is really that we are successful, that we're building and that we want no politics. And that's really appreciated. And just to give you an example, there are things on the acquisition. The team is extremely relieved that they are part of a company that is really focusing on MMOs that knows how MMO work, that have also done porting already to other platforms. So it's really extremely positive. And yes, you always have a few people leaving. But in general, we're really good in keeping the people that we want to keep. And of course, if you have distressed companies, sometimes we cannot avoid that we have to let go some people, but that's a different story then of course. Paul, you take the And then I take over for the maintenance and the expansion CapEx part. So thank you Ken for this question. So in regards of the maintenance CapEx, so that's really the Capitalized own work for the further development of our IP on game for personal costs, which get activated And which then is like an asset on the games, which are doing revenues organic growth in the future. And we also have their platform investments, so the investments into new platforms In there as well as Siegfried, for example, Atlas Rooks is also within the maintenance CapEx. And on the expansion CapEx side, there we have then further M and A Transactions, but also investments in IP rights and investments in EU game licenses. So if we acquire A game IP from a 3rd party developer, which we also have done in the past. And then we do the further development in house or if you acquire Game licenses where you sometimes have to pay a one time acquisition period in the beginning. That's something which is also then an expansion CapEx And also it's then gearing towards strong organic growth in combination but also with M and A growth If we're talking about an M and A acquisition, which is also part of the expansion CapEx here. And in terms of The staffing on the Kingsdale side, so there's sufficient staffing to keep To really grow the games and to put more focus now on the MMO, with that 1 on 1 and Pirate 1 on 1 again because there was a carve out during the Kingsdale acquisition For the old mobile business, there was a lot of key focus on for VISTA-1 hundred and one and I will one on one because it made a lot of new game development from the scratch. But our thing is really Putting more focus on the content updates again and bringing more to the existing games and also launching them maybe in other regions and to nationalize them more. But yes, the staff is really happy that they can now really focus on that again. And so for that, there is no additional stuff needed. But nevertheless, especially and that's what Remco also mentioned already, if we bring the game to new platforms and port the game to other ones, Then for sure, I mean, we have stand off excellence in the company. We have people who did this already. And then they can use these kind of know how And also some human resources for that end to really so that we can realize a lot of synergies on that end as well. And the big advantage for Kingstair especially is because they're also based in Austin, they're also our game hub in the United States. Just any way for the MacMiles of our game developers and based in Austin, so that's actually pretty perfect from a synergy and integration point of view as well. Yes. I hope they've survived the snow. But thanks very much. Great answers. It's better now, but we had some issues indeed with, let's say, energy networks collapsing and all these kind of Perfect. Thanks a lot, Ken. Thank you. Our next question comes from Philippe Greg, for more of a brief research. Please go ahead. Hello, gentlemen. Well, first of all, I wondered if you could comment a bit on, first of all, organic growth numbers in gaming and particularly the outlook for Organic growth as you are now, as of March, basically facing very tough comps. Do you think you will be able to overcome these tough lockdown comps with your organic measures, your launch activity. And relating to that, you've disproportionately elaborated actually on mobile launches. Is this Are these really, well, substantial game changes that you're expecting, so really propelling mobile into the double digit The percentage of your business or is it more to give us an idea that with people probably spending more time Side that you are addressing that in your investments. And thirdly, I'd like to comment on WordBench. And I guess these higher privacy issues are really definitely important. So how do you compare your technology to the solution of some of your competitors? Is that, Well, attractive enough to probably even get some out licensing deals or what potential do you see precisely just a bit of rough quantification of the potential? Great. Filip, thank you very much for your questions. Let me first start with your first one about growth. I mean the total gaming market is growing a bit over 10% year on year with basically all segments growing, mobile a bit faster, but let's say also and there's a bit of, let's say, casual games going from online gaming to mobile gaming. There's a bit of also a change between the segments. So there is organic growth. What we have seen, and that's not in our sheet on Page 13 that, of course, with COVID, everybody locked down. There was more activity in gaming. We got a lot of new users in and also people were just playing more hours, just being locked at home. And in Q2, I would say people also voluntarily obeyed the lockdown orders, while we're now seeing that the activity is more normalized since then. But we have normally in seasonality in gaming, so Q4 is the strongest, Q1, the 2nd strongest and then Q3 and Q4 sorry, Q2 and Q3 are the weaker ones. But with that COVID, gaming was growing with 10% or 10%, 11% per year. That's also what I expect for us to continue. The only thing with COVID, we had an extra growth jump just adding more people into the games and also temporarily, this was partly temporary, bit of revenue jump because of more hours. But the structural one was just more players. And so altogether, it's just we are starting from a higher level and nice to continue. That's what I would expect with also this growth that we have done in the past. So it sounds a bit like you view this kind of optimal scenario, lockdowns continuing in Q1, Q2, everybody is probably out anyway and lockdowns lifted, so it doesn't affect you too much, would that be a fair characterization? No, because people will not be only outside. I would say, it's we expect that it's more normal and maybe there's few days that people go outside a bit more. We see it also in some of our games at the moment that one, I don't know, FIFA is launched. Then we see sometimes a bit less activities in certain games because people are then playing only FIFA, but they normally come back. And the nice thing about those MMOs is that really people are extremely loyal. And if they don't log in every day, they also lose some points. So there is a lot of motivation there. But there's sometimes that they do a bit less activity, but I'm absolutely not worried about that. We think that COVID really has given a huge jump in Q2. And after that, we have been seeing very nice growth. And yes, look at streets look everywhere, people are not really obeying the lockouts anyway anymore. And so we don't see that effect anymore. On our side, and that was, let's say, I think the second question that you had is, yes, organic growth. In the beginning, the 1st 4 years, we only focused on integrating companies and not putting any energy in organic growth. Then we have slowly and not putting any energy in organic growth, then we have slowly started to build up our in house game development for further development of games, not for new game development, but for the development, which has really shown very good effect, and we are also increasing those activities. So we're gearing for, let's say, we always say we want to have more than 10% organic year on year growth, but that would only be, let's say, in line with the market. And so of course, we want to do a bit more. And we are really good in getting that done now. And to the game titles, yes, we have games on this list. And we are, let's say, one of the few game companies, I think, that is really trying to not make any promises on any new game. It's that's 3,000 game launches per month that most of those flop, I mean, once you heard the number in the Google Store, 80% of the games have only been played by 3 players and then with the developer and who are his friends. Yes, let's say there's a lot of games that are not successful. Of course, we try to select games much better. We are extremely selective. But to just promise that we now going to have a game that's doing 100 of 1,000,000 of something would be not serious. And therefore, we did our best work on the selection, on launching the game. And yes, there might be positive surprises, but looking at the statistics, most of them will be maybe nice games but not changing the world. And then on the ZURB part, yes, thanks for the compliment. What we have so far been doing is really building a basis, a critical mass. And the companies that we have acquired were, let's say, nobody was really extremely good in what they did. They also had a specialty, but there was nobody who is really sticking out, which is in general what we see a lot in the media side. And what we have decided from the beginning with our team that we put roughly 30%, 40% of our development resources on really innovation. And Curve Edge is one of them. And we see a lot of interest also talking to some really larger parties in the market that see that we have a good solution there, which we need to prove, of course. And so it's a bit early to say. But innovation on the media side is a lot possible, and that's what we are strongly focusing on. Then best of luck to monetize that. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Dinesh Azhar from Redeye. Please go ahead with your question. Hi Remco and hi Paul. Congratulations on the strong quarter and for the very comprehensive presentation. So I have a couple of questions, and I'll take them 1 at a time as we can digest them. So Most games in your portfolio are free to play. How much do you spend on UA? And do you expect Is to increase as mobile games become a larger share of overall revenues? Yes. We spent probably 8% of our revenues on user acquisition. But it's of course, there's a few things that are influencing that. At the moment that you launch more games, of course, you start spend more money also on user acquisition because the revenues are not there, but you need to, of course, to get the customers in. So that would increase the percentage. Also the more you go to mobile where the lifetimes are shorter, then also the let's say, the cost of user acquisition become larger compared to what you make on revenues. So if you move more into mobile sorry, in casual, which automatically, let's say, mobile is a bit more casual, would also happen there that we also, let's say, increase that part. On the other hand, we are also with our media companies, of course, working on the efficiency, improving efficiencies, which is on the other hand, we are how to say it, is bringing that down. So it's difficult to say where we'll develop, but it's and exactly the reason that we went into the media business is that user acquisition is such a key thing for success and for profitability that, that's really a key focus for us. Yes. Thanks. And When you acquired Freenet Digital during Q3, you guided for double digit revenues from mobile, so 10% roughly. So you did not reach that goal. Could you maybe elaborate on why or why that is? Yes. Very simple reason. I mean, the acquisition was good and really made the revenues that we expected. The problem is that and I wouldn't say it's a problem, but that the rest of the business is growing faster. And yes, it's a nice problem. But it's in that sense, we were not able to keep that promise because that acquisition was not growing as fast as some of the other things. And you saw that we did over 40 growth or let's say almost 40% growth in gaming and over 40% in media. And that was something that was much bigger than we expected. And therefore, the percentage of mobile didn't get over the 10%. Okay. So free net still it performed as expected basically. Yes, and we're learning a lot from it. It's really very good entry into mobile. And then also as you see on the list, there's more mobile games coming out, so we'll also profit from that. So yes, mobile will grow and we're also looking at mobile acquisition opportunities. So yes, mobile is an important part of the strategy, but not the only part. Okay. And for dramatic share of media revenues, I had a little bit of hard time catching what you said. Is it basically the DSP plus the SSP revenues that is problematic? Yes. That's 60% is the 12% DSP and the 50% SSP. Exactly. So then you have 38% Agency Services. And do you expect programmatic to take Share over direct bookings and agency services. And is that part of the margin expansion? Yes, the programmatic part is growing fastest in the market. And also on our side, we see that it's really especially now with leveraging the different or connecting the different platforms that we have acquired, that it's really growing very fast. But a certain number of customers always want you to do or let's say, want us to do the services. So I would also expect that to grow in parallel with the beginner part. But it's fair what you say, we expect the programmatic part to grow faster. Yes. And I mean the margin should be higher, right, because it's more scalable, no involved for human intervention, Yes, the margins are not even that different. Let's say, the gross margin we'll manage is actually higher, but therefore, you have much more personnel cost, of course, while on programmatic, it's much easier, scalable. And as I said before, with the other question, the answer that it's really from a certain skill, you get much more efficient. And that's what we're kicking in. And then indeed, the programmatic part becomes to be more profitable. Okay. And The Media segment grew really strong this quarter. And what do you expect? I mean, of course, you added Kingsisle and Which will be very accretive, especially on the EBITDA level for gaming. But what do you expect for the future revenue mix, media versus games? Also difficult to say. We say we see strong organic growth on both sides. As you saw also in Q4, they were both growing extremely strong compared to the previous quarter. So it's very difficult to say. I mean, we are giving the official guidance, as Paul presented, 25%, 30% year on year revenue growth, which we have been beating basically every year in last year's or more than beating, but we don't want to open promise here and so are a bit careful. We are happy with both of them. They're both great segments. And not to forget, of course, the synergy between the two, which is also growing, so we get more and more synergies out of it. And yes, with M and A also, we now did this large gaming deal. There might also be a big media deal coming or a big gaming deal, so that will also make a difference there, of course. But I wouldn't dare to give full guidance. I mean, what we really want is further fast growth. And I think with a minimum of 25% to 30 which basically is already in the pocket of the King of the Al transaction, we have nice target. And if we can beat that, we will, of course, do that. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Our next question comes from Alis Akren from First Berlin. Please go ahead. Yes. Good afternoon, guys. Also from my side, well done on the good Q4. Two things I want to discuss with you. Remco, you mentioned early in the presentation that you don't think NGI is big enough in In terms of size right now to be aggressive in the mobile gaming sector. And I'm just wondering if you could share What level the company would need to reach or what metrics the company needs to reach for you to get more comfortable to be aggressive there? And then the second question I have, you noted that you're working on a mobile game for Desert Operation. Could you give some hints as to what that involves in terms of investment to get that loss as a mobile game? Yes, thanks, Alex. Yes, let me start with the first one. Maybe, let's say, I phrased it wrong before. I think we are big enough to go more aggressive into mobile. We have to size now, and we have been we are hearing from investors, first of all, that we should go into mobile for many years. And we have always been, let's say, not too much listening to that because we said our mobile is more competitive. And we had to get some things in place to really make a fair chance to be successful in mobile. Because yes, we admit it's a larger segment and it's also growing a bit faster, but it's also very competitive. And one of the important things that we had to get in place was the user acquisition part. So now the media part, we feel really comfortable to be able to the user acquisition is a very efficient way for mobile game apps and also for HTML5 things. So that's in place now. And secondly, with a lot of the IPs that we have, they are like different operations suitable for bringing them to mobile. And thirdly, let's say, we see also our selection of games to be launched like you see the Golf game, Golf games. And so we are signing up for more mobile games. And as 4th part, we're also looking into mobile gaming company acquisitions, where we also feel more comfortable now than we felt, let's say, 2 years or 3 years ago. So mobile is really a big focus point. But as I just answered in the previous questions, it's difficult to predict. I mean, we were planning to do more than 10% of our revenues on mobile, but the rest was growing so fast that we didn't make the target because of that. But yes, I expect mobile to further grow very fast. Okay, great. And now what I said before, where we're not big enough for that is really new game development. But that's something where we still that we don't want to touch because if you want to do new game development, especially of an MMO with coffee like SEK 20,000,000 and more per game, we think that you need to be having enough financial means to develop at least, yes, to have 10 studios that are each developing 3 games basically to really have and calculated chance of being very successful with it instead of just developing 1 or 2 games because that would be more or less playing lottery. But that's what I tried to refer to before. To your second question sorry, I hope the first question is answered by that. Yes, yes. And then the second question, typically what we say, and that's more kind of ballpark that importing a game to another platform cost us between 0.5 1,000,000 and 1,000,000. Okay. Thank you very much. And I just think if we also then do updates on the graphics, those kind of things, it might be a bit more, typically we talk about half more into Europe. Okay. That's very helpful. Thank you for the detailed presentation guys. Thanks. Thanks, Thank you. There appears to be no further questions registered. So I'll hand back to the speakers for any other remarks. Yes, then we are also overdrawn a bit on the timeline. So sorry, that was probably me having too long of my part of the presentation, but I also wanted to get the background. Now I would like to thank everybody very much, yes, for listening in, for looking at this. And we try to deliver from our side and we'll go give our best also for the future. And yes, we are already into Q1 and looking forward also show the Q1 sales and say Q1 numbers very soon. So thank you all very much and also available for questions, of course. Thank you very much. Bye bye. Thank you.