Earnings Call: Q4 2019

Feb 6, 2020

Today, our CEO, Micah Behevilleire, will start with group development. You may have recognized that we announced also this morning the strategic review for Navi's future and Mika will also call that through. And after that, our CFO, Mika Polakar, will continue with the business areas, financials, dividend and outlook. So please, Mika, time to start. Good morning from my behalf and thank you for joining the Cargodec call today for our Q4 results. I recognize it's a very busy day, so I appreciate your joining in. 2019 in many ways was a good year for us in Cargatec. I am satisfied with the performance of Kalmar and Hayab both had a strong year. Also our services and software business continued to grow well. And we ended the year with a strong order book that lays good foundations for us for 2020. I am especially pleased with the strong cash flow coming primarily from the improving supply chain situation and reduction of the net working capital as well as advanced payments coming especially from some port automation projects. As said, orders decreased but actually pretty much stayed on the last year levels. Kalmar had a very strong year in 2018 and we came down somewhat from that one, but the Q4 was again a strong order intake for Kalmar. Hayab, despite 2018 being a record year for Hayab order intake, increased orders somewhat further in 2019. MacGregor order intake increased by 9%, but that came effectively from the TTS merger. On an organic basis, MacGregor orders declined somewhat. We had a strong revenue increase in all of our business areas and comparable FX ratios 10% growth. And again, we actually ended the year with record high comparable operating history, highest ever in Cargodec history and good development happened both in Kalmar as well as in Hayabbergi, operating profit increased by 27%. Obviously, we are highly disappointed with the performance of the Mac Gregor that tracked down the group numbers in many different ways that Mikko will discuss also further with the total comparable operating loss of €28,000,000 a very disappointing year for MacGregor in that sense. When I look at the market environment first of all in 2019. In 2019, the world trade and container traffic grew moderately, about 2.3%. And the growth expectations for 2020 is somewhat accelerating growth, about 3%. We see a good demand continuing for our automation and project based solutions, but we saw the softening of the demand in our mobile equipment business towards the end of twenty nineteen and we are somewhat uncertain about the demand going to 2020, especially around the industrial application space for that business. In High Ab, the construction market remained strong and actually towards the end of the year we saw still very strong indices both in U. S. And Europe in terms of construction index and we expect the market to remain relatively stable going into the 2020. 2019 was a very difficult year for MacGregor in terms of the market demand. Now if you look at the estimates for 2020, for example Clarkson estimates fairly significant ramp up of the ship orders on 2020. We are somewhat more cautious about that one and our own plans are based on the fairly flattish demand in MacGregor moving into the 2020. As said, our orders remained at high level in 2018 and I am pleased with our order intake during the Q4. High up orders obviously came somewhat down, but it's good to remember that Q4 twenty eighteen was the record high year or record high quarter for high up demand. And actually, we see the order book going down and with the improved delivery capability in high up, I think it would be expected that we see maybe some softening in short term order intake as our delivery times are getting shorter and our dealers and customers are getting more confidence in terms of our delivery time accuracy and shorter delivery times as well. Kalmar orders stayed at a high level at $446,000,000 and included one significant automation order during Q4. Our order book is actually somewhat up from the previous year and as said lays a good foundation for us for 2020. Half of the order book is actually coming from Kalmar at this stage. Sales increased as said in all business areas and the profitability developed favorably in Hayab and in Kalmar. However, MacGregor weak performance dragged down the overall group numbers. I am also very pleased with the development we see happening in our key strategy areas in Service and Software sales. The Services grew another 8% in 2019, primary growth coming from the HAYAB and MacGregor, where MacGregor without the TTS also was growing organically in services, which is always a good indication regarding the sort of hopeful market recovery as well. Our software sales increased by 15%, the growth primarily coming from the increase of our automation software. Overall, our services and software sales on an annual basis is now exceeding €1,200,000,000 and constitutes 33% of our total overall revenue. So I'm very pleased how we've been able to develop this business over the last few years. As Hannoverian already mentioned, we also announced today a strategic evaluation considering the Navis business. First, I'd like to say that we are very satisfied with the performance of the Navis. During CargoTech ownership, Navis has more than doubled its revenue and is EBIT positive operation today. When we have now evaluated Navis strategy and strategic options, it's clear that there are many opportunities for Navis to grow and develop into new segments. But the question is that are those segments and opportunities aligned with our core business and are we potentially the best owner to enable Navis to take an advantage of those opportunities. It's also very important to point out that this evaluation only concerns Navis software and the other Cargatec growing software business development are not part of this review. If I try to a little bit explain this further, we are still highly committed to our strategy to become the leader in intelligent cargo handling. What it means for us in practice? First, if I start from the kind of the foundations, which is our products. Our products are becoming increasingly more intelligent. They will have higher and higher software competencies and composition. They will have more and more sensors. They will communicate and correlate it outside, exchanging information more and more. And the products clearly are moving more and more towards semi autonomous, fully autonomous and then towards smart robotics direction. We see customer demand due to the lack of, for example, experienced operators and cost saving efforts and safety efforts driving towards that direction. At the same time, our products are also and the need for sustainable solutions is increasing clearly and especially the electrification pace is accelerating clearly within our customer base. Moving into the smart products and more sustainable products offers us significant opportunities in the future. Secondly, these smart intelligent robots will further coordinate and form intelligent system level solutions. A good example of that one today already in our solution offering is automated container ports. We need more and more demand towards similar solutions in our other customer segments. We will automate not only container ports, but different depots, container depots, logistics yards and other industrial applications. We see the pace accelerating around smarter products, smarter systems and much smarter sustainability and these offer great opportunities for Cargodec. With our market position, these capabilities we have built in house, this really gives us opportunities to further enhance our competitive edge in the markets that we are serving today. The third level that we have been surveying with Navis is an independent software business that then coordinates systems between themselves and potentially exchange data and optimizes cargo flows sort of ecosystem play. This is the business that is currently under review and we are looking whether we are able to sort of drive that business forward with the fairly conservative industry and are there other opportunities in navies business development that would be better served under different ownership structure. And that's where the evaluation is at this stage. With that one, I'd like to move into the business areas and hand over to our CFO, Mikko Polak. Thank you, Mikko and good morning also from my side. Let's start with Kalmar, where the orders were on last year's level. The automation and project orders actually grew compared to quarter four twenty eighteen, and we got again one sizable automation deal in the last quarter of twenty nineteen. We also have a solid pipeline for automation and project orders going forward. The mobile equipment orders declined in the last quarter. We had strong deliveries at the end of the year, resulting a good growth in sales, 66% sales growth. Also on full year basis, Kalmar was able to grow sales by 6%. Service sales growth picked up from 3% in quarter three now to six percent in quarter four twenty nineteen. And we saw good growth in all categories spare parts, maintenance as well as in upgrades. The CALMARQ Q4 comparable operating profit was EUR44 million against EUR51 million a year ago. And the decline was mostly attributable to less profitable sales mix like higher portion of the automation and project sales compared to the mobile equipment sales. On full year level, however, KALMAR comparable operating profit was €162,000,000 and this is a 13% improvement year on year. Also the operating profit margin improved from 2018 when it was 8.9% to 9.4% now. Then moving to High And in High Up orders declined by 10%. However, in our opinion, still the quarter four order level is very good achievement in High as the comparison period orders were actually on record high level. The full year orders in High Up grew by 4% and orders were flat if we exclude the Effer acquisition, which took place at the later part of 2018. The supply chain situation stabilized and has been stabilizing as we expected in the second half of twenty nineteen, and we have been able to reduce significantly our lead times. This is also visible in our order backlog, which is now getting back to the more normal levels. IAP was able to grow the quarter four sales by 16%, thanks to also to the stabilizing supply situation and growth came from all product lines and mostly from EMEA and North America. Service sales were up by 5%. And when we look to high up full year sales, sales were €1,350,000,000 and here we have 18% year on year growth. So nice development there. The higher quarter four comparable operating profit improved almost 50% and the margin being now 14.1% for the quarter. And this improvement came from higher sales. In High Up, the full year comparable operating profit was €170,000,000 and this is a 27% year on year improvement. Then moving to Macrijkor. In Macrijkor, the orders grew by 5%, but basically the underlying market is still very, very challenging. The orders excluding DTS acquisition actually declined 8% in quarter four. If the new build market, so the equipment market has been fairly low, the positive thing is that we have been able to grow significantly the Service business. With acquisitions, 36% growth in Service orders and also on organic basis nice growth. MacGregor sales grew 18%. But again, when we exclude the TTS acquisition, the organic sales declined by 3%. Like in orders, also the service sales grew 26% and organically 2%. The quarter four profitability was disappointing minus €13,000,000 comparable operating profit and this is very much related to the project cost excessive project costs, cost overruns, then low capacity utilization in the Offshore business and overall in Magregor business, weaker sales margin due to the tight competition. We have started several measures to improve the profitability and I will cover those also on the following page. So overall, we are targeting for 2020 in Macregor to EUR 15,000,000 fixed cost savings And this is coming from the offshore ongoing offshore restructuring as well as from the TTS integration. Overall, from the TTS integration, are expecting 25,000,000 to €30,000,000 synergy savings so that EUR12 million in 2020, EUR10 million in 2021 and then EUR5 million thereafter. The TTS integration cost synergies are related to the changes in roles and positions both in MacGregor as well as in the TTS organization, closing facilities, getting rid of duplicate offices, for example and then supply chain related savings, for example, in direct materials as well as in indirect purchases. We have taken also sizable measures in the Offshore business in quarter four and that resulted to significant onetime costs during the quarter four. Then if we look at overall company performance on a full year basis, our sales grew by 11% and the comparable operating profit increased 9%. On the disappointing side, we had very high items affecting comparability, euros 84,000,000. Out of this, 55,000,000 are related to MacroCore. This resulted to IFRS operating profit decline being €180,000,000 versus €190,000,000 a year ago. And this impacted also the earnings per share, So basically, 1.39 per share, 16% decline year on year is very much attributable to the low profitability in Magrecor as well as the high restructuring charges. On a positive side, we had excellent cash flow in 2019, euros $361,000,000. So after the two years of challenges with the supply chain, we have been able to release nicely cash from the net working capital, especially inventories went down as well as we received advanced payments, especially in the second half of twenty nineteen. Our financial position is strong. Our thanks to the very good cash flow, especially in the latter part of 2019, our net debt declined to €774,000,000 and our gearing was 54%. Excluding the IFRS 16 leases, our gearing was 41%, which is below our target to maintain the gearing below 50%. The net debt to EBITDA reported was 2.5%. But again, if we exclude IFRS 16 leases, net debt to EBITDA was 1.9% where it has been on this kind of levels in 2016. We don't have any major debt repayments. Euros 150,000,000 debt is maturing in the first quarter and overall next year or this year, $271,000,000. Most of this we have already refinanced in 2019, for example, with the bonds which we issued in the second half. ROCE for 2019 was 7.3%. The main reason for the low ROCE is the very weak profitability in Macrecor as well as the restructuring charges, which we have taken to turn the business around. CargoTech board proposes a €1.2 dividend per P share for year 2019. This is a 9% growth from 2018. The dividend would be paid in two installments in March as well as in October. And the proposed dividend represents a 86 percent dividend payout. If we exclude restructuring charges, then the dividend payout ratio is 55%. In total, the dividend payout would represent roughly €77,000,000 dividend payment. Before going to the guidance, let's have a look on our 2020 business assumptions. We expect the Magrego's comparable operating profit to improve from the very low levels in 2019. Contributions here are the €15,000,000 cost savings as well as the growing the overall revenue thanks to the TTS acquisition. We have done also we have been doing already in 2019 productivity improvements in our all other business areas as well as in the corporate functions and we continue with those measures also in 2020 and those are expected also to improve have a positive improvement in our profitability. We also expect to grow our Service business going forward. Last year 2019, it was 8%, keeping in mind our service and software sales target of €1,500,000,000 Overall, the market visibility is limited at the moment. The recent events like the coronavirus will also increase the uncertainty. This is mainly attributable to CALMAR mobile equipment as well as in Hyatt. But overall, we do not expect major changes in the demand if we look compared to 2019 latter part. We incurred last year EUR 84,000,000 restructuring charges. We are expecting approximately EUR 60,000,000 restructuring costs from ongoing programs. And now the reviews, we have started additional reviews, those might also change still this €60,000,000 estimation as we move forward with the reviews. So our outlook for 2020 is that we expect the comparable operating profit to improve from 2019 when it was €264,000,000 And with those words, I would then hand over back to Anna Maria. Thank you, Now there is a great opportunity to ask questions and get good answers. We will start with the potential questions from Roholaaty. It seems like that there are no questions from Rohallahti, so then we will continue with the international questions. Sure. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you'd like to ask a question, please signal by pressing star one on a telephone keypad. If you're using a speakerphone, please make sure your mute function is turned off to allow your signal to reach our equipment. A voice prompt on your phone line will indicate where the line is open. Please state your name before posting your question. Once again, please press star one to ask a question. We will now take our first question. Magnus here with UBS. A couple of questions from me. So first, think in Q3 in CALMA, you sort of guided to a relatively stable mix in the business going forward. I think now in this quarter, we saw sort of quite different picture. Could you give some additional color on that first, please? Thanks for the good question. Yes, I would say that in quarter four in Kalmar, especially in the Kalmar automation and project we had higher deliveries what we originally anticipated. And in this business, we have lower profitability compared to the mobile equipment. So this is the mix what I referred in my part of the presentation, which has been diluting our profitability. Perfect. Thanks. And then, Nick, here, could you expand a little bit on what sort of year over year demand trends you saw through the course of Q4 and how Q1 has started, please? Yes. We saw still the demand continuing in a good way one good it's good to remember that the comparison period is very challenging. The Q4 twenty eighteen was all time high. Order intake well over €350,000,000 So the demand remains robust, but one thing that I think we need to be a little bit cautious now in the short term is the fact that we are clearly being able to ramp up our delivery capability. Our on time deliveries start to be at a very high level and our lead times are getting shorter now as well. So one of the reasons for the very high order intake, for example, in Q4 twenty eighteen clearly was the fact that people were uncertain, both the dealer as well as the direct customers, about the availability of the equipment and want to hedge with the orders. Now that we start to see continuously lowering delivery times or more accurate deliveries, I think we could expect still in the short term some order softness because effectively, if you look at the order backlog that is still over €400,000,000 in there, I mean, just for the sort of to simplify, if you think Highab as a 1,200,000,000 business, so 100,000,000 a month deliveries or orders. So if we get down to a sort of at best, were in 2017 roughly at the seven weeks delivery time. But if you use, say, two months delivery time as an kind of example, that would effectively mean that that would be the order backlog could be as low as €200,000,000 and we would still be performing at the high level. So I would expect that the with the current higher performance, we should still see the order backlog actually to decline somewhat where we are today. That's more to do with the delivery performance and our kind of customer engagement rather than the market demand. From the market demand point of view, we still see sort of the demand to stay roughly at the last year's level. Okay, perfect. Thank you so much. And then maybe you have touched on it already, but I think in the last quarter, stepped away from some service business in Q3. Have you seen any similar positions in Q4? Can you repeat your question, please? Yes. Apologies. I think in the previous quarter, you stepped away from some service business due to sort of lower profitability. Have you made any similar decisions in Q4? There has been, especially in Kalmarsk and cleanup in terms of some of the crane upgrade related services, some of the maintenance services where we were not happy with the margins we were able to do, and that explained the overall low growth. We saw already services picking up on Q4 with the 6% increase. And obviously, we have seen an improvement in CALMARS service business profitability as well. So I think we have seen those effects away, and I would expect another year of growth in CALMAC Services in 2020 as well. Thank you. We will now take our next question. This is Johan Eliason at Kepler Cheuvreux. Just some questions starting with the restructuring charges, a little bit high in this quarter and also a fairly high number going forward. How much of that is related to the TTS acquisition? And are the charges you are taking in relation to TTS sort of in line with what you initially planned in terms of charges when you looked at the deal? Thank you. Yes. In I'll take this question. So basically, 84,000,000 overall items impacting comparability. And most of this EUR 55,000,000 are related to Magrekor. And in Magrekor's case, not that much yet has been related in 2019 to TTS. So we as we move with the TTS integration more to the concrete implementation in 2020, then we start to see TTS related restructuring charges. And those are partially related to this EUR 60,000,000 that I mentioned in the previous slides. And then you haven't seen a need for higher charges now when you have control of TTS? It's sort of in line with your original plans or Yes. TTS integration is progressing according to the plan. We expect similar savings what we originally communicated and also the restructuring charges there are in line with our original assumptions. Okay, good. Then on this Navis announcement, I always thought Navis was sort of a little bit of a door opener for you and also allowed you to sort of offer this integrated automation offering to your end customers, setting you apart from competitors like Kony Cranes or ZBMC. Now you're thinking of divesting Navis. I can understand that some of the new developments there could fit better elsewhere. But don't you see that this is a bit threatening in sort of your value proposition to your customers in the way you're offering an integrated automation solution? It's good point, Johan. And I think that also tells how much the market has shifted now. So what you said is absolutely true that four, five years ago when we Navis started to be part of Cargodec, it was an important for strategic discussions because we were effectively a sort of steel provider, a train provider for customers. Now with the clear development in automation, our strategic discussions on the customer even without the navies are actually at a very high level. Also what we have seen in automation is that there doesn't seem to be a lot of need. Actually, I can't name a single project at the moment that would actually require what we would call a full package including the operation system, because the automation is primarily driven by the so called brownfield implementations, I. E. Existing ports converting gradually into automation. All of these ports already have an operating system and in many cases that is Navi's system today. But from the offering point of view, the focus is very much on the capabilities and the competitiveness of your automation software and automation capabilities within those given projects. So that need that was served us quite well actually has sort of, you could say, faded away in that sense. And when we want to develop the Navis further, many of the new opportunities actually are further away and don't necessarily have the same synergy or support with our core businesses that it has some few years ago. And if you look at your offering in Port Automation, what's your key differentiator versus, for example, your Finnish peers now? I think it's overall investments we have done on the automation software. We have a single automation platform that we've been developing consistently and then we adapt customer specific applications. We feel it's very important to have a highly kind of competent and high functionality platform in place that then enables you to do specific customization for the customers. If I look at the ports that we have now automated, for example, West Coast U. S. We see increasingly higher performance. The customers have been able to adapt their processes and operating ways into the more automated ports and are finding continuously with increased data visibility more opportunities to drive the productivity of the port. So we see increasingly good and reliable performance coming from our current references. And especially around the horizontal transportation, we clearly see the market moving away from what was originally a sort of leading application which was so called AGVs into the sort of straddle based horizontal transportation that gives you a much better performance and flexibility in your operations. And there is quite a bit of demand around that one. And as I said, we had one fairly significant order again in Q4 and we see a number of opportunities in our pipeline also moving into 2020. Excellent. And then just talking about, in general, the pipeline for Calimar, you see mobile softening a bit. Is there in any of your end segment a specific replacement cycle working against you or in favor of your offering in 2020 and forward? I guess the area that I sort of would be most cautious about would be the industrial applications, so the heavy forklift market depending how the industrial demand and development happens, especially in Europe during the 2020. And the other area of potential softness for us was towards the end of the year. And let's see how this year pans out was around mobile equipment market in China where we also saw softness towards the end of the year. Right now, of course, with the coronavirus, the market is not moving at all, but it's difficult to predict how long that will prevail. Those would be probably the specific areas I would be more cautious about. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. We'll now take your next question. Good morning. It's Mano Rintoulash from Nordea Markets. My first question would be on this Navis. I think you mentioned that you have €150,000,000 of sales in 02/2019. And can you remind me that what kind of a growth rate have you had since you acquired that asset? And, also, what is the invested capital or the book value you have of that asset? Because I think you invested quite a lot over the past years into developing Or has it all been taken through the P and L as a cause in your Kalmar numbers? And then finally, could you say that what is the cost of this kind of increased investments in Kalmar reported EBIT from the Navis kind of development of the offering? The overall, over the kind of lifetime of Kagarik ownership, Navis has doubled its revenue. The growth has been more slower in the past two years. If you look at the robust growth we have seen in software in the last two years, it's primarily coming automation from software today. When it comes to the assets, we have not capitalized any of the R and D in Navis, so there are no balance sheet items in there as such. I'm not going to comment particularly sort of business unit or business specific kind of investments otherwise. And you're not willing to comment about the invested capital or book value of now yesterday? Not at this stage. Okay. Then my second question on would be on Calmer and and following up on an earlier question. So I also interpret that for the q three results that you talked about, the Calmer backlog being the high quality and and kind of getting the sense that the strong run rate of ten percent twelve months rolling margins at the end of Q3 would be more of a kind of a level where you think that you can remain. And Q4, obviously, margins and mix weakness, it's a bit of a surprise. So have you changed your comments? I think we misinterpret those comments that the backlog quality is slower going into 2020. I think there's probably I have to admit and apologize if there is some misunderstanding around that guidance as well. I mean overall, we are very happy with the Carlmark performance in 2019 where we saw increase in revenue and increase in profitability. With the nature of the business, you will expect a certain lumpiness on that one because the project deliveries, which are generally lower margin than the mobile equipment, are going up and down within the quarters and the mix keeps on shifting around that one. Obviously, I look at the 2020 now, the slowdown of the mobile equipment would mean that the portion of the project based business would increase. As such, I think we are looking fairly stable development now in the Kalmar moving into the 2020. Can you help me to understand that if you have a worsening mix, so how do you then get the stable? Well, when I look at the numbers on the Q4 level, I think that's where I refer to the stability level moving into the 2020 sales. So we'll be probably somewhere in the ballpark of what you look at the Q4 and with the current demand. Obviously, again, one is to point out that when it comes to the mobile equipment demand, delivery times and the visibility is shorter, that can move into both directions and more difficult to predict moving into 2020. Whereas with the automation and projects, our actually backlog pretty much covers the 2020 demand by now. Okay. Final question. So should we interpret that there's a risk that columnar operating profit margin would not improve in 2020 if you're kind of supposed to look at the Q4 run rate? And I think that's kind of the level. Within the current assumptions, but as a lot depends, of course, on the demand of the mobile equipment where the visibility, especially towards the second half, not good. Yes. Overall, I would say that quarter three type of margin is on a high side there if you make projections for 2020. So it should be you should use more kind of single high single digit type of margin based on the current understanding about the mix. Thank you. Thank you. We will now take our next question. Good morning. This is Artem from Credit Suisse. Thank you for taking my questions. I have a question on the high up. Could you help us with the size of what was the headwind in the bridge in 2019 from the supply chain issues which you had? And how should we think about the Q4 strong margins and whether they are sustainable into the next year in high half? We still had some headwinds in 2019, especially in the earlier part. It's difficult to put an exact number, but I would use a sort of estimate of maybe about around €20,000,000 of revenue 20,000,000 €25,000,000 of revenue. That was still a headwind. That headwind obviously gradually decreasing throughout the year. Right. Okay. And could you also remind us what's the split between medium and heavy duty trucks exposure in that business? And maybe talk a little bit about what gives you confidence in flattish demand outlook for high up given a very weak backdrop in the trucks market? Yes. The traditionally, the high up business correlates very poorly with the truck demand. One is to remember that only about even in the most penetrated markets, only one truck in 10 has some sort of lifting equipment. And the mix also varies depending on the application, so it's quite a complicated matter. But generally, we have seen truck demand going up and truck demand going down without affecting directly the high up demand. The single largest application for high up is the construction activity, but one needs to remember that also we serve retail distribution and waste management and other applications as well. But the best predictor on that one generally tends still be the construction level activity more so than the track registration numbers. When I look at the construction indices towards the end of the year, for example, and predictions for the 2020, those are still showing fairly robust demand moving ahead. Right. And my last question is about McGregor. I think previously, you have been talking about breakeven margins in 2020. In current market environment, is this still the target? That's still very much a Thank you for the question. It's still very much a target for the whole year 2020. Mick already showed you the savings that we estimate and targeting for 2020 macrogor. The other important element of the macrogor is the loss making projects we had, especially in the offshore side in 2019, and we do not expect further negative bookings from coming from. So the combination of the ongoing cost savings both from offshore as well as from the TTS integration, good together with the disappearance of the negative project margins from the books in 2020 should lead us to breakeven result in 2020. However, I want to point out that this will happen gradually throughout 2020. So we still would expect MacGregor first half performance to be loss making and then gradually improving throughout 2020 with the whole year sort of showing a breakeven result. Okay. Maybe a small follow-up on this. Could you help us with understanding the size of those losses on those projects in 2019? Those losses were double digit million number without going to an exact number, but more than EUR 10,000,000 we incurred in 2019. And this together, like Micah said, with cost reduction programs and DTS integration, expect to improve the 2020 comparable operating profit. Okay. Good to point out that our targeting for the breakeven result is not counting any market improvement. The plans are based on a fairly flat top line number. Obviously, there are upside opportunities, especially around the services throughout 2020, but we do not expect the market to recover very fast. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. It appears there are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn the conference back to you, the speaker. Thank you. Thank you. Before ending this news conference, I would like to remind you about our next event. There is a possibility to meet our colleague, Stefan Lampa, who is President of Kalmar Mobile Solutions. We are organizing an event together with him, which will take place here in Helsinki on February 26. And as you may remember, Stefan has an excellent background, for instance, in robotics. So I think this will be excellent possibility to hear his thoughts and plans for Calmer Mobile Solutions. I know that this is super busy day for all of the analysts, so thank you for active participation. I'm looking forward to meet you in Helsinki on February 26.