Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Spinnova's Half Year 2024 Results webcast. I'm Virva Vesanen. I'm the Director of Marketing, Communications, and Investor Relations, and I'm here in the studio with our CEO, Ben, sorry, Tuomas Oijala, and CFO, Ben Selby. First, let's go over some practicalities for this webcast. So we will have a Q&A session in the end of the presentation, so please send your questions through the chat function. Voitte lähettää kysymyksiä chatin kautta, ja vastaamme niihin esityksen lopussa. Our last event was our Capital Markets Day in March, where we presented our updated strategy. So to start this webcast, let's go one more time through what was the updated strategy. So Tuomas, could you summarize it?
Yes. Thank you, Virva, and good morning also from my side and on my behalf, and great to have this opportunity to share what's happening at Spinnova. Before I jump into talking about the strategy itself, just wanted to reflect also on the first half, you know, in terms of what we've done, and it's been a very exciting first half. We'll talk a lot about what we've changed and achieved. It's also been very exciting personally, to learn about the industry, to meet the great teams we have, and to learn about the needs that the textile and fiber industry have. And here, it's just important to reiterate that it's so clear that there's a clear...
There's a big gap between what's available now in terms of scalable, new raw materials, sustainable raw materials, and what the industry actually needs and what they're looking for, and that makes me very confident that we have a role in this. It's also important to highlight, before we go into the presentation, that we are on track with our plan. We set certain goals for this year. We said what we, or we did what we said we would do, and we're on track also to achieving the goals for the rest of the year. So this is very important, and it is a challenging journey. Nobody has been able to do what we are trying to do yet, but we are also very realistic about how to do it, and we believe that we have what it takes.
We now have the pieces of the puzzle together, where the technology is getting ready, the fiber quality is improving, and we have a strong network of partners with Suzano and ECCO and Valmet to make things happen. And most importantly, we have a very strong team of experts that knows what to do and is able to innovate, to make big change happen. When we talk about the new strategy, so it's important, of course, to reflect on why we did everything leading up to the Capital Markets Day that we had in March, and why we made the change. And the answer is quite simple.
It was really answering the question of: How do we best use our resources, and how do we make sure that we focus our resources on, on those activities that can create value for our customers and for our shareholders? And here's then, of course, the key elements that you see on the slide here. So we focused on technology sales and delivery, so meaning that we are really focusing on our part of the technology, making sure that that is delivered as part of these big projects and unlocking the value that it creates when combined with other machinery. We are obviously investing in technology development a lot so that we have a good fiber, but more, or very importantly, that it's at a competitive production cost and CapEx per ton cost.
We also are continuing to invest in fiber market development, even though we are now focused on technology sales, and this is to make sure that we know how the fiber works, that we have interest in the fiber and demand for the fiber, so that our customers can make good business with that as well. And then last but not least, is the fact that we wanted to create a business model that focuses on cash generation as soon as possible, positive EBIT, and of course, as Ben will reiterate also many times during his presentation, that we don't need additional funding to make the strategy happen. When we launched the strategy, we also launched this one-pager to show everything from our mission to what we actually do and how we work.
And there's a few things I'd like to highlight and reiterate on this one again. The first is that the mission that we have shows the size and scale that we are talking about. We're speaking about changing and transforming the raw material base of the textile ecosystem. That means that you need to be able to do things that are at scale with large volumes, and it means that the selections of partners and how we work needs to enable that as well. It also means that the strategy and commercial focus of what kinds of segments we will tackle is guided by that. The other important point is that we have set these goals on being the preferred choice of investment for fiber investments, that we are highly profitable, and we have a great team of experts.
Here, I'd like to really highlight this point on being the preferred option for new fiber investments. That guides what we do. It shows that we need to have a good, quality fiber that can be scaled. It needs to be a technology that's easy to build, easy to operate, and easy to scale, and of course, that the investment needs to yield good results for whoever is building the factories. These are really the guiding principles that we have in our strategy and hopefully, you can see that throughout the presentation and through our actions that we are taking going forward. That would be a quick summary of the strategy and what we've been doing, and then we'll talk a little bit more about what happened in the first half.
Thank you, Tuomas. So it should be clear now that we are focusing on technology sales. So then let's move on to the actual results part. Tuomas will first talk about the highlights and the main events we had in this reporting period, and also about the progress we have made in our priorities and focus areas. And then Ben will go over the financials after that. Tuomas?
... Thank you. So, I'll talk a little bit about the highlights of the year, then reflect on how we're doing versus the goals that we set at the Capital Markets Day, and then we have a few examples that we want to share in more detail. But first, the highlights. So there's a few things here also just from the last month, because we feel they're very important. But let's start with what we achieved already in the first quarter. So we had the letter of intent with Suzano. We'll talk a bit more about that in detail, but obviously solidified our strategy very much with that agreement.
We recently signed the letter of intent with ECCO on how we're aiming to make decisions quite soon on the next steps, and very important agreement signed with Valmet on our collaboration, and making sure that we can scale together. We opened the spinning line in Portugal during the second quarter. That was very important to make sure that we have a rapid development cycle, so that we're able to test our fiber and get feedback quickly. And then, of course, at the CMD that we had in March, we launched our new strategy and targets, focusing on technology sales. We made key changes to the management team so that we had the team aligned with the new strategy.
Then we went through a process of organizational restructuring that we were able to successfully complete during the second quarter, with the objectives of making sure that our organization is aligned with the strategy, but of course, equally importantly, to reduce our fixed cost base so that we're on track with our profitability targets. And very importantly, to highlight here also that our financial guidance for 2024 remains unchanged, with us basically working according to the plan in the first half, and Ben will share more about this. But when talking about what we've been achieving, we felt that it's important and also a great and exciting opportunity to really show progress against the targets that we set out. And there's five areas here that I'd like to highlight.
The first one is that we said that we want to have fiber at an industrial level that's been validated with the industry. And we're very happy to say that we now have seen, in the past few months, very good quality results from the fiber produced at Woodspin with Suzano MFC. This is a really important milestone for us in the scaling journey with Suzano. And now we're just working to make sure that we get the final validation from the supply chain partners, which is a very important step for us on our tech development, but of course, with the journey with Suzano. So this is something that we're very proud to share today.
We also had a goal to have sufficient and strong adoption of the fiber in the industry, and we see that the product launches that we have had are clear indication of that. We've got positive feedback from these launches on what we wanted to hear, which was that the product quality, and especially the use cases, and our fiber being a potential substitute for cotton, those were confirmed. And now we're focusing on continuing work with these brands and with other brands to get longer-term plans in place on the adoption.
And it's very important to highlight here that these first two goals and the achievements are very much made possible by the fact that we have the joint venture with Suzano at Woodspin, the team there working, and of course, that's, as we said, the important role of Woodspin now in the near term, so that we show that the fiber works and that there is enough demand in the market for that. The third goal that we highlighted was having our first technology sale outside of our existing JVs with Woodspin and Respin. And here, of course, the letters of intent with Suzano and ECCO are signals that we are moving in the right direction, and we'll talk about it much more today. But of course, the collaboration with Suzano is going very well.
Suzano is showing their commitment on multiple fronts, and we continue to expect to commence pre-engineering in the second half of this year. We set a goal to have development of non-wood technology sales projects, and here the key achievement is now the collaboration with Valmet. That's going to make it very much more effective in developing these partnerships, getting them moving, and of course, we are also strengthening our technology sales team with recruitment that's really focused on building the right partnerships. And finally, the cost savings program was an important goal for us, both in terms of external expenses and personnel costs. We are on track with that, and that's a very important thing for us to have in place, to have a solid baseline to continue our path. I'd like to share a few examples in a bit more detail.
So the first one is that we're extremely happy about having the collaboration with Suzano. Suzano is a very experienced company in building scale and driving productivity, and their professionalism is something that we will benefit from together. And the letter of intent that we have shows that we have a clear plan and a clear target on how we're gonna make this happen. As we've said, we will be selling the technology to the planned factory that Suzano will own and operate, and it is expected to have a nominal capacity of 20 kilotons of fiber per year. And we are making good progress now with the fiber quality, with the technology validation.
We have remaining steps still being worked on full speed, and we believe that we're on track to moving to pre-engineering during the second half of this year. So this is obviously a very important focus for us, both in terms of technology and commercial value creation. Respin and the leather waste recycling business case is something that we continue to be very excited about. We're getting a lot of positive signals from the market that not only circularity is important, but especially this specific case is driving a lot of interest. And that's the reason that we now set a clear target with ECCO to have the decision on how we scale by the end of the first quarter. So the teams are now working together to drive the detailed business plans.
Commercial plans and scaling plans, and we're going to be very excited to announce then the next steps then. One very important step that we're taking is the product launch. We are going to soon be producing fiber with the Respin technology, so made from wet blue into fiber, and that's going to be spun into fabrics that will be used in shoes launched by ECCO. This is gonna be a great showcase, and we're extremely excited to share it when that moves forward. Something that is very important on Spinnova's journey is the partnership with Valmet, and we are very proud that we could announce this together. Valmet has been a key enabler of the development that Spinnova has had so far, and was a key partner for the work done to build Woodspin.
But now we have stepped into a different phase of collaboration, and we're really on the journey together. We see that we are together committed to the technology targets, to the cost competitiveness targets, and now we are working together on the same side to make sure that we have a really clear technology package that creates value for the customers. The focus, naturally, in the short term is on the Suzano project, making sure that we hit the KPIs together with that. But we will also be very much driving the long-term technology roadmap to make sure that we reach the dramatically different cost levels that we already showed in our Capital Markets Day. It's also great to see already that there's a lot of potential on the sales collaboration side.
Valmet has a strong network of companies that are making pulp from various materials, and we believe that this is also going to yield in some real discussions. There is an exclusivity that Valmet has, and what this yields for us is an exclusivity fee as well. But what's very important is that we have now a great, strong partner with delivery capabilities, planning capabilities, and we are committed together to making sure the targets that we have set happen. So this is an extremely important piece of the puzzle that makes us very competitive. And then it would be amiss to not talk about the great product launches that we had.
So with Bestseller, Luhta, and Sofia Ilmonen as examples, we have been able to launch products to the market, and as I already mentioned earlier, the feedback is that we really have this natural touch and feel that we've been talking about. And it's clear the industry needs other alternatives for those natural touch and feel fibers, mainly thinking about cotton. The Jack & Jones launch was especially interesting because it was a very large volume launch, and of course, we're also excited to be among the very few companies and brands and fibers that were presented as official merchandise for Olympic teams that participated in the Paris Olympics this year.
Actually, I'm also wearing this Jack & Jones T-shirt, and it's something that we have all at Spinnova as well purchased ourselves because it's a great product. But it works, and that's what matters, and the feedback is very important and powerful there. We're very excited about this, but as we said, of course, now we're gonna continue to build other launches and build long-term partnerships with other brands as well. That would be the overview of the business side of what we achieved in the first half, and then back to you, Virva.
Thank you, Tuomas. Nice to hear about the business updates, and a lot has happened already this year, and let's continue with the good work. So then, let's take a look at how we did financially. Ben, could you walk us through the figures?
Thanks, Virva, and good morning, everybody, from my side. And yeah, really cool, Tuomas, that you're wearing the Jack & Jones T-shirt, and I think, Virva, you also are wearing some Spinnova, the Sofia Ilmonen connection, collection. So nice to see. Let's take a look at the key financials and the highlights here. So revenue in the first half was EUR 362,000. This was mainly generated from the sale of technology services to our joint ventures, Woodspin and Respin. And the revenue did decrease significantly compared to 2023, and this was as a result of the fact that in the comparison period for H1 2023, we had the main technology machinery delivery to Woodspin, which was completed then, which then increases that comparison period number.
Overall, this decrease in revenue is in line with our expectations and on track with our full year guidance for 2024. If we turn to the operating result, this improved year on year from -EUR 11 million to -EUR 9.9 million, and the improvement was mainly due to lower personnel costs and also other operating costs in the first half of 2024. We continued to make investments. This is important to us, and so we made EUR 3.35 million of investments, mainly into our joint venture, Woodspin. The investments were lower year on year, again, related to the fact that in H1 2023, we had the major machinery technology deliveries to Woodspin at that point in time.
I'm very pleased to say that we continue to have a strong cash position, so EUR 46.6 million of net cash at the end of the first half. If we go into a bit more of a detailed review of the P&L, I commented already, the revenue change, which is in line with our expectations. It's worth also highlighting here, that we had a significant increase in other operating income to EUR 514,000, and, this was consisting mainly of Business Finland grants related to our new raw materials development work.
Our materials and services line was EUR 44,000, which was down significantly from H1 2023, and again, this comes back to the same topic that explains many of the changes on the P&L, the fact that in the first half of 2023, we were delivering the first major technology project to Woodspin, and that affects the comparison period. Whereas now, the majority of our delivery of services is being done through our personnel costs. Overall, our personnel expenses lowered in the first half due to a lower number of personnel, so from moving from 78 on average in H1 2023 to 74 on average in H1 2024.
It's important to note that it's still not apparent here yet, the major changes that will be seen from the effects of the employee negotiations, which I will comment on a little bit later. You do not yet see the effects of that in these numbers. Our other operating expenses reduced from EUR 2.3 million to EUR 2.1 million, and this was largely as a result of our external spend cost savings program. We've continued to be prudent in how we have been using our cash. The share of loss from the joint ventures did increase to EUR 2.2 million, and the reason for this increase was mainly due to the operational ramp-up at Woodspin, where it was not fully operational in the first half of 2023.
But now we see the full effect of the personnel and other operating expenses, as well as the full effect of the depreciation coming through into that loss that is then apparent in Spinnova's group numbers. So overall, the operating results did improve thanks to the particularly the personnel expenses and the other operating expenses, and we ended up with a EBIT of EUR 9.9 million for the first half, compared to -EUR 11 million in the first half of 2023. I'll comment on the cost savings program, which is progressing according to plan. We in the first half made some changes to our organization, and the rationale was primarily to align it better with our technology sales strategy, and we also initiated a savings program covering external costs.
Unfortunately, we had to say goodbye to eight of our employees as a result of the change negotiations, which is always difficult, but was in line with what we set out to do to strengthen and align the organization with the new strategy. Overall, if we include both the result of the change negotiations with employees, as well as the changes having two departures in the management team, this will generate EUR 1.6 million of annual run rate cash savings related to personnel costs, excluding share-based compensation. As mentioned, you do not yet see really the effects of these in the H1 figures, but the majority of those savings will be effective by the beginning of 2025, by which time the notice periods of the departing employees will have ended.
As commented, you can also see the results of the external spend savings program in the lower operating costs in the H1 2024 figures, so we have been prudent with our spending and are on track with our targets there, so altogether, this has helped us in terms of our cash position and also going forward, so we have now a strong position of EUR 47 million of net cash at the end of the first half, and it's important to reiterate, as we did do when setting the strategy targets, that we do not expect to need additional external financing in order to reach our strategic goals. I'll touch on the financial guidance, and overall, our H1 results were in line with our expectations, and therefore, we have no change to our full year guidance.
So for 2024, we expect that Spinnova's revenues will be lower than in 2023. As you are aware, the timing of the revenues for us is linked to the timing of technology sales and the delivery of the next production facility, which we are working very hard towards, but the timing of that will then determine when we see the next big kind of ticket revenues in our P&L. The operating result is expected to improve from 2023, but will continue to be negative, and thanks to our cost savings program, we do expect that our personnel expenses and other operating expenses will be lower in 2024 than in 2023, so that concludes the financial section. Back to you, Virva.
Thank you, Ben. And then to end this presentation, Tuomas, could you still summarize the presentation of today and what we should remember from this?
Absolutely, and thank you, Ben, for a good overview. So as said, we've gone through many things. There's been a lot of progress during the first half, and there's a few points that we would like to leave you with, before we go into the Q&A. The first one is that we are making progress, as we said we would, towards the goals for two thousand and twenty-four, and in terms of making our new strategy happen. And there are key partnerships in place, that have happened, especially in the last few months, that have really solidified that plan. So we believe we are on track with the strategy.
The second point is that the first half was in line with our plans and expectations, and that gives us a good platform to keep the full year outlook unchanged, and of course, gives us confidence also in our long-term plan. The third, but very important, thing that we have shared today, that we would also like to leave everybody with, is that we believe that we are on track for moving to the next phase with Suzano in the second half of this year into pre-engineering, and that's going to, of course, be a very important step in setting us up for driving technology sales business in 2025.
And, before going to the Q&A, of course, I want to highlight the great collaboration with Suzano, and Valmet, and ECCO, strong partners, and we appreciate the collaboration with them, and especially the team at Spinnova, and for the hard work that they are putting in. I think it's really clear that there's a lot of expertise and power in that organization, and that's what gives us confidence also that we will be able to make this happen. But, that would be the presentation side for today. So then I believe we go into the Q&A after that. So thank you.
Thank you both, Tuomas and Ben, for the good presentation. And now let's start the Q&A session. So please send your questions through the chat so we will answer them. So let's start. If we talk about the Suzano project first, we said that we will move on to pre-engineering, or we expect to move on still this year, but what is still missing?
Yeah, that's a great question. So when we announced the letter of intent, and what we've been talking about, is that there were a couple of key things that need to happen. One was that we get the final validation from the supply chain on the fiber. The second is that we, of course, get all the final technology validation in place. And the third is that, of course, we have all the commercial topics fully aligned. And basically, those things are being worked on, and we have good traction and good plans in place with Suzano, so that we believe that they will take place during the second half.
Okay, good. Thanks. Then we have a question from our Inderes analyst: So, "What are the tasks that Spinnova will still have to get ready before Suzano's project can proceed to pre-engineering? Did you complete any tasks in H1?" This we kind of answered.
Yeah, I think that's basically answered by that there are many individual technology validations that have been done. And of course, the fiber quality that we have achieved now from Woodspin is an important milestone that's part of the journey there. So as said, the next step with the fiber is then to get the final okay from the industry. But in terms of development side, we are very happy with the progress that we have there.
Another question from Antti: "What are the questions that Spinnova and ECCO have to resolve before deciding next steps with Respin? Can we open those up?
I won't go into detail on all the questions, but the work that's being done is to look at exactly what the commercial plan would be, what's the best way to set up the company for the commercial plan, and of course, also, what's the best way to increase the production capacity, so I think those are the topics that we are working with now during the next months.
Maybe if I can add related to that is, of course, the planned product launch that we will do together as well-
Absolutely
... before the end of the first quarter of 2025.
Okay. Then there's one question about Valmet cooperation. Could you comment what size of revenue stream you expect from exclusivity fee?
Ben, do you want to take that one?
Yeah, I mean, at this stage, we can't comment on the exact size, but maybe more on the kind of the formulation that it is linked to the timing of the project delivery, and not necessarily to the first deliveries that Spinnova itself will do. So, you know, what we've said is that it will not be apparent in our financials until at least 2025. But, you know, as the first project is delivered, you will then see the effects of the exclusivity fee being flowing through to Spinnova's revenue line.
Okay. Thanks, Ben. Then we have a question about the fiber quality and usage. Can we say any ratio that the fiber that's coming from Woodspin, how much of that can actually be used in yarn spinning and real quotes, and how much is just going to waste or is not good enough?
Well, there, the answer, of course, is that when we are, you know, scaling up, we are doing a lot of development work, and as said, we have been very clear that Woodspin's role right now is to help us validate the fiber quality, the final technology choices. So, I think that, of course, answers the question, that that's the focus. It's not that it's 100% being used commercially, but of course, then, whatever form of scaling happens with Suzano and other partners, of course, we're 100% confident that then there will be a very good yield from production.
Yeah. Then if we talk about other tech sales than this, Suzano and ECCO deals we've done, any news on any other tech sales customers, or are we still working with Renewcell Circulose on the textile waste-based fiber?
... We have, as was already discussed in March and continues to be, many good projects going on to kind of find the best combinations of feedstock and investors. Naturally, when we have clear steps happening, we will be announcing those, but we are seeing good progress there, and as I mentioned earlier, the collaboration with Valmet will accelerate that progress. When it comes to recycled textile, we definitely see recycled textile as something that's supported by the trends in the markets. There's a lot of excitement around that.
When it comes to Circulose itself, I mean, we've tested the material. We know that it can have great potential, so of course, we are looking to see then how Circulose will take their business forward.
We are still working with them, so the partnership has not ended.
As said, we are waiting to see how they will scale the business. So what the next step is on their side is a very important one then.
Okay. Good. Then one finance-related question about Woodspin for Ben. Woodspin continues to be loss-making. Are we seeing any timeline that when it could be profitable, or is there a way to decrease the loss that's coming from the JV?
Yeah, I think it comes back to what we've been saying about the importance of Woodspin in terms of supporting and validating the path towards scaling through our technology customers. And that will be the case still for several years because, you know, the first plant will have a delivery period, and it's still important that the Woodspin is also there, kind of providing fiber into the market and the end kind of brands, so that we can continue to be relevant. So, you know, we obviously keep an eye on and are prudent around how we are kind of spending, but at the same time, you know, Woodspin is doing a very important job, so that's the focus.
Yes. Thank you. Then maybe we can continue with finance topic. If our sales continue to be on the level that they are now, would that mean that we would need to cut even more from personnel, or have we now cut enough?
I think you can see that we kind of you know, significantly improved our cash runway through the exercise that we did earlier this year. It's very important that we have the right people in place, and we also are spending as we need to on the external spending in order to win. We're not going to cut our way to success. Of course, we will make decisions depending on how the circumstances change, but we have a good runway. We are kind of fighting for all of the technology sales, and that's the main focus. If you know while at the same time, obviously, having a financially prudent backbone in terms of the cash position that we have.
Okay, thank you. Then, one question about Suzano and Lenzing ownership. Suzano recently announced that they have acquired a stake in Lenzing, which is a fiber producer producing lyocell and viscose fibers. Has that affected our collaboration with Suzano in any way, and how do we see that?
Well, that deal is quite fresh out of the oven, of course, but obviously, we can't comment on kind of Suzano and Lenzing's joint dealings together and, of course, Suzano's rationale for that, but I think it's very clear that it shows Suzano's commitment to diversifying their business and getting into the textile sector, and of course, we're excited to see where that can lead.
Yes, then there's a question about the Valmet collaboration. We've said that Valmet will deliver the main equipment, so can you talk about the roles between Spinnova and Valmet, then what is Spinnova delivering if Valmet has the main equipment?
Yeah. By main equipment, we are often referring to the bigger machinery that's part of the production line, for example, the drying equipment, and so on. The actual scope of exactly who delivers what, obviously, needs to be agreed at the end with each customer because we will have many cases happening, and there's different ways to set up these kinds of large projects. The important thing, of course, is that Spinnova will continue through our IP to have the ability to justify a technology fee. We will offer certain services, as we've discussed before, to make sure that, you know, the actual design, the commissioning and actual operation can take place, so we offer needed support.
We also still have some proprietary hardware, of course, as well, that's part of the package that is basically the key to making sure that the main equipment delivered by Valmet actually produces a good quality fiber.
Okay, and one more question about the Valmet partnership. It's an exclusive deal. What was the reasoning behind that? Was there any other options?
We have done a lot of scanning, and discussions with different players, and we have come to Valmet, because we believe that we are strategically aligned, but also they have strengths in those part of the technology that we need delivered. And of course, then, you know, the reasons that we came up with the exact setup are between us and Valmet, but I think that it shows that we are committed to each other, and we both believe that this can turn into a good business.
... Yes. Then what is our plan B if the Suzano project is postponed or doesn't happen? Could this potential tech sale to Respin kind of like complement that or?
The tech sale to Respin and scaling Respin is definitely something that we're excited about. But of course, we are not only relying on Respin. I mean, this is the reason that we're investing in developing the OpEx and CapEx to be competitive for other customers. We are working hard to find scalable other feedstocks that are interested in working in this sector, and see good progress there. And then again, as said, with Valmet, we're going to be doing a lot also to make sure that the pipeline of other technology customers develops quickly. So that's, I think, the core point there.
Can we comment anything about how significant financially the Respin tech sale could be compared to wood-based or?
I think not in detail, but we've obviously commented before that there's a difference in the size of the feedstock availability. So of course, it is going to be less financially significant than the Woodspin or sorry, the wood-based technology sales ramp up.
Okay, thanks. There's one question about the recently announced VTT pilot project, that how does Spinnova see this? I'm not sure, like, what. Do you know what VTT project this is?
Yeah. We have obviously continuously engaged in projects then to kind of do long-term fiber development as well.
So I think this kind of opens up future use cases and things like that. But I would say that, of course, if you think about the resource allocation and where we are putting our effort, we have talked about it extensively today. So it's making sure the wood-based business scales and that the other core technology sales deliver scale. But as said, part of the fiber market development pillar of our strategy is to continuously develop the fiber, to have different use cases and performance features as well.
Okay, good. This was all of the questions we've received. In case you still have more, you can always contact us at our ir@spinnova.com email address. We are happy to answer your questions, and I thank you, Tuomas and Ben, for today's webcast, and I wish everyone a nice day.
Thank you, everyone.
Thank you, everyone. Thanks, Virva.
Bye!