Good morning, everyone, and welcome to Wärtsilä Interim Report presentation this morning. I have here with me the whole board of management and also our new head of HR, Alid Dettke. Welcome. And of course, Natalia Valtasaari, the head of investor relations. I have a short presentation, and then as usual, we can have questions and answers session. Wärtsilä's third quarter was burdened by project-related challenges as you know, and at the same time also low equipment demand. At the same time, our services activity has remained sound. Couple of words about the market. Our marine market conditions are today quite sluggish and full-year contracting is expected to be below 2018. Cruise, ferry, and LNG are actually doing quite well, and they are compensating the weaker markets, weaker merchant and offshore markets.
Customers today remain unwilling to commit to scrubber investments due to uncertainty on fuel price development and fuel availability, despite still the supporting initial price indications. In energy, the short to midterm outlook is challenging. The energy landscape is evolving rapidly, as is technical development, the political agenda, and public opinion. This is really today making the investment environment complex and creating uncertainty among our customers. The geopolitical and economic environment is further slowing decision-making, particularly in emerging markets. If you look Wärtsilä's short-term outlook, the current market expectations in sales is, in our view, realistic. As we have communicated, we expect comparable operating result to be EUR 100 million lower than the EUR 550 million profit of 2018 due to the project-related charges. 2020 will be a challenging year, with the main risk being related to energy equipment orders.
At the same time today, pricing is another headwind we face. Of course, we are following all this progression of ongoing savings initiatives and the development in the market, and we'll take further actions if necessary. If you look at the specific figures now in Q3, order intake went down, both businesses, but heavily, of course, at the moment because of the market situations in energy. Order book is still or has been growing. Net sales is also down, mainly because of energy. Result was EUR 39 million. Here in Q3, we took EUR 65 million off of the EUR 150 million earlier communicated. Our cash flow also is negative at the moment. We are building our inventories and the working capital is very high so that we can get the deliveries out in Q4. As said, order intake was weak in both equipment businesses.
I'm not so worried about marine. That might be a seasonal situation. Of course, now when we compare marine Q3 in 2019 to last year, last year we had a very high order intake in scrubbers. This quarter we haven't seen that one. As said earlier, let's see how the scrubber ordering develops going forward. The decline in sales really due to concentration of deliveries towards Q4. Book-to-bill, still the rolling number is about one. Order distribution here. This of course, supports now the Q4 development. Over EUR 1.7 billion orders for this year. Going forward, of course, the order book has been growing bit by pieces. The result really burdened by the project challenges. I will come back to the project challenges in a moment. Actually, the slide is now here.
We already communicated about the EUR 150 million, the projects which have affected this situation are 12 Marine Gas Solutions projects for gas tanker vessels. We have one LNG terminal construction project, I think everybody knows that's Hamina here in Finland. We have two engine EPC projects also in countries with a very strict local standards and requirements. I would say handful of projects. Wärtsilä has over 700 projects yearly, now unfortunately quite big projects of those were impacted. Of the EUR 150 million during January and September, we have recognized now EUR 85 million. The rest is going to be in Q4. The main issues behind the cost overruns, in Gas Solutions, it was new technologies and the technologies in new applications. These new technologies now is only on the Gas Solutions side.
We also have had challenges related to new suppliers, really difficult situations with some of our suppliers. Specifically in the Energy side, the local standards and codes have not always been fully priced at the sales phase. At the same time, regarding the specific EPC projects in Energy, the subcontracting and engineering costs have been underestimated. This development was realized, as you know now during Q4, we have started corrective actions to strengthen, first of all, our sales and project execution processes. How do we sell, how we finally then link our project execution. We are doing good projects, as I said, over 700 projects, most of them are doing well. Of course, we have to learn from these ones. We have also changed the structure when it comes to the organization, both in Marine and Energy.
We have strengthened our project management, and of course, have created more strict processes to analyze and understand the risks upfront in these cases. At the same time, looking at the technologies and where Wärtsilä is working, the assessment has to be tighter, and of course, at the same time, looking at our suppliers. Sometimes we have noticed that probably the competencies have, specifically in these cases, not been at the right level. A lot of training, new introduction of tools to facilitate the processes. Cash flow negative, and really this is, as you see, regarding the working capital, specifically now delivering a lot of engines in Marine and Energy. At the same time, the huge amount of scrubber deliveries are burdening our cash flow situation. Gearing a bit higher than previous year, 0.44. Moving on a bit to the different businesses.
As you know, vessel contracting this year has been extremely low, one of the lowest for many, many years. A sort pick up in the last couple of months, but still below anybody expected. Supporting Wärtsilä's business in LNG, in cruise, in ferries. When you look at this quarterly development, as I already mentioned, you have to remember from last year the big amount of scrubbers. What and why this is happening, as I said, I think it's going to be coming back. The price difference between low sulfur and high sulfur fuel is large, and the vessels going forward, starting from next year, they need to find a solution, and scrubber is a very viable solution going forward. The install base now again shown in MW, if you look at it in EUR, we are not worried.
Some of our customers have transferred a two-stroke big megawatt agreements to be handled through transactional business. At the same time, the net sales now a bit lower, but of course, when you look at the Q4, there will be huge amount of businesses or deliveries going out. One highlight, this is now what comes to technologies. We developed from our 31, Wärtsilä 31 platform, a new engine, which is pure gas engine for the marine market. This is extremely important because the marine market is going more and more to sustainable solutions, reducing the environmental impact. This engine is very much suited to work in hybrid operations. Moving on, the energy market share a bit down. The whole market is or has been going down, and our order intake in new equipment was very low. Services, again, also here in energy, is doing fine.
In energy, of course, the big dilemma today is when you look at the structure of the energy market, that renewables are gaining more and more a role in the energy systems. At the same time, you have the old systems in place, and before the market is really starting to reduce, first of all, coal, you don't see some of the developments on the flexible gas side. At the same time, we have a pipeline regarding all the developments going on in developing world. The decision-making in many times because of a structure, but political situations and financial situation has been taking more time. This is the first nine months. Really, if you look at the megawatts, pretty much down from last year. Asia has played a quite major role, and Asia and Middle East and Africa is going to play a role also going forward.
We have been able to increase our engine energy equipment base. This is an example in Hungary and really showing that Wärtsilä's combined solution with the equipment and life cycle possibility is gaining really good opportunities. Net sales pretty much down, partly because of some of the order intakes. Order intake we were expecting in Q3 now happening in Q4, affected the new building sales. The services, again, are quite stable development in a challenging market. An example of the future of combustion engine possibilities. You can burn renewable fuels, you can burn synthetic fuels in our engines, and the way how the development of these fuels are going to be gaining place in the energy market is promising. This is a collaboration with the Finnish-based Q Power, which is basically pioneering biomethanization, creating synthetic fuels, which can then finally be used with our technology.
We also now, looking at our prospects, downgraded the energy from soft to weak. As I already said, the market looks challenging, and before we get all the understanding about the structure, how the energy systems are going to be built, this really affects also to our market. This is the presentation so far, now we are open for questions. Do we have any questions here in the audience, in the Helsinki campus? No questions yet, we can go to the lines. Please remember that you could limit your questions to one question and one follow-up question, get back to the line if you have further questions. Let's open the lines, please.
Ladies and gentlemen, we'll now begin the question- and- answer session. If you wish to ask the question, please press star and one, and you wait for your name to be announced. If you wish to cancel your request, please press the hash key. Your first question comes from the line of Alexander Virgo. Your line is open, please ask your question.
Thanks very much. Morning, Jaakko. I wonder, could you go a little bit more into how far or why, I suppose, you've been so far off on the estimation of costs? I guess particularly given you flagged 12 marine projects, one LNG and two EPC, and yet the balance of the charges you recognized so far suggests the EPC business is where the problems are. Does that weighting change, I guess, when we look at Q4 and the remaining charge that needs to come in Q4? Maybe just talk a little bit about the difference in problems. As the follow-up, it sounds very much as if, particularly on some of these technology challenges and the supply chain in particular, it doesn't sound like that's a problem you can address quickly.
How do we think about how this develops over the next 12 - 18 months and looking into the midterm? Thank you very much.
Thank you for the questions. First of all, now we have two separate kind of difficulties. One is in the marine side, and that's our Gas Solutions. Clearly, this is probably covering both the first one and the second question, is the technology. We deliver a huge amount of projects in the Gas Solutions market. The technology, what has now been affecting to the businesses is something we are using in new applications. It's basically not new technology, but new technology in new applications. That's why I think we are quite confident on what comes to solve the problems and go forward. I could actually also ask Roger Holm, the head of our Marine, to go through a bit about what was going on with the technologies. Roger, please.
Yeah. Thank you, Jaakko. Good morning also from my side. Just a clarification first of all, we are all starting from the same starting point, so to say. Please remember now, this is Gas Solutions or gas technology. This has nothing to do with our gas engines as such. That's the first clarification point. When we talk about the challenges we have in Gas Solutions, these 12 projects, we talk about tens of vessels of gas tankers. The background for this is new technologies where we have partly failed in the cost calculations for these new technologies. We have underestimated the cost, and on top of that, we have not received the proper deliveries from certain sub-suppliers according to agreements.
This means then that when you combine these two, it has led to a situation where we have been delayed in our deliveries to the customers, and our clear intention is, of course, to deliver to the customers what we have promised to them. We have had to do a lot of rework and cover up for delays to do this. We are confident that this is something now that with the processes Jaakko already mentioned, we are in control of the enhanced processes. This means still that we need to make sure that the deliveries we have in the pipeline go as planned.
Regarding the amounts, we said that EUR 65 million was actually taken into account this Q4, EUR 17 million was in marine and EUR 67 million in energy. The rest, which is now 4 Q, is probably a bit more on the marine than in energy because that's how you calculate EUR 150. When it comes to the EPC, we have hundreds of EPC projects in our energy business. Okay, one was the LNG, and we clearly failed with that one. Going forward, we don't do LNG terminals anymore. The rest, when you look at Wärtsilä delivering EPC projects globally in 178 countries, and now we have two cases where we underestimated the cost. I'm not worried about that, but Marco Wirén, the head of our energy, could a bit say about the energy now going forward. How do you see it?
Yeah. Thank you, Jaakko, and good morning from my side as well. That's correct. It's two large EPC contracts that we took actually two years ago. In the sales phase, we didn't quite understand the requirements that are set to us from not only from customer side, but also the legal side and the government side. This is the reason why we miscalculated. Now when we are proceeding with those, we have realized that we have to comply with all these requirements that we didn't know about, and that's why the cost came up, and we couldn't actually do something else than just take the cost because the applications we have. What we have done is that we have already, beginning of this year, we have implemented a new training for our project managers. Also now we have changed the organization.
We have a specific center of excellence for these large, complicated projects so that we have dedicated project managers instead of just shifting from a simple project to a large project, but only doing these large, complicated projects. At the same time, we have gone through the whole approving process. Now it's much more tighter, and we will actually bring up the risk evaluation to the board of management level as well. We understand that we have taken into consideration all the different aspects that we have to going forward. I feel that we have taken the right steps, and we can fix the issues that we have had in the past.
Okay.
Okay, thanks.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Sven Weier. Please ask your question.
Yeah, morning. It's Sven from UBS. First question is on the seasonality. You already mentioned, obviously, if you look at the marine business, the OSV side, you also had very low cruise orders this quarter, and also on the gas carrier side, where I suspect those markets are still quite active. Should we expect the order intake in Q4 to return to a more normalized level? That's the first question, please.
Sven and Roger is happy to talk about the orders. Please, Roger.
Yeah, thank you, Sven, for the good question. First statement is, of course, we are not immune to the lower vessel contracting on the development side. That's clear. Having said that, there are two things to notice when you look at the Q3 order intake. One is the very, very low order intake of scrubber and the comparison period was clearly much better. The other side is that there are some timing issues also now looking at Q3. I would say that scrubbers, we still need to look at Q4 and start of next year. We have hopes that, if I put it like that, we have hopes that we will still see increased activities in scrubbers going into next year, but at the moment, that's very silent.
In general, as you said, cruise, gas carriers are still active, and we don't foresee huge changes on that part.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, because if you look at the sequential development on cruise, it almost went down two-thirds, right, in cruise from 180 to 60, right? I guess that's quite an element of lumpiness in there.
It is correct. Timing-wise, as you know, from the yard point of view, we have extremely long order books, which also means that there are enough time to discuss and negotiate new deals, which makes it also sometimes a bit more tricky to say exactly when it will happen, because the yards have time, and that will be used then according to their schedules. We will see timing issues also going forward. As said, the pipeline for cruise still looks healthy.
Thank you. The second question is the same for energy, new equipment business, obviously also Q3. That's probably also an element of seasonality here. What does the pipeline look like for Q4? Is it like that we should not have the usual seasonality in Q4, and things are really pushed into the right now?
Yeah. That's right, Sven. It is always so that Q4 is always very heavy on the order intake side. We definitely see that the pipeline is good for quarter four as well. What has happened now that is many orders have been postponed, different reasons, just like Jaakko mentioned earlier. One reason is that it takes time from the financing institutions to approve projects, especially in the emerging markets. The reason for that is the uncertainty of the macroeconomics, trade wars, and so forth. Also in some countries, we see political reasons. It takes a long time for politicians to make a decision. It could be that there might be government changes or a new government, and they just want to understand what policies they will support and how they're going to approve these different power plant projects.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Manu Rimpelä. Please ask your question.
Good morning. It's Manu Rimpelä from Nordea Markets. My first question would be on the overall pricing environment you're seeing and especially in energy, but also in marine. How do you see that this price pressure is starting to intensify given the low level of activity in the overall market? How do you think about cost inflation? We heard other industries talking about labor cost inflation and installation costs going up. Will we start seeing squeeze of margin from the pricing turning negative, and then on top of that, we get volume contraction?
Manu, thank you for the question. You are right. The pricing is just getting tougher. Of course, it comes from both sides. When the market is getting smaller, you get more competition, and that we have seen now in the market developing clearly. At the same time, of course, you see some inflation coming from the other side. It's getting more and more challenging.
If I may follow up on that. How do you see the other turbine producers and other kind of energy equipment providers reacting to this, that are they also getting more aggressive on pricing, or are we talking more about these combustion engine-based technologies?
Yeah. Manu, we all know what's the situation with the big players, and they are aggressive at the moment. Of course, they try to get in places where they can use that technology against our technology. They are extremely aggressive. Of course, if you look at us, our benefit is always with our technology to be faster and decentralized and so on, the whole market is getting more and more aggressive.
Okay. My second question would be just on services growth. I think that slowed down in the third quarter. Can you just update us on your thinking around the services business? That's obviously key for your margin development as well. Are we going into risk of slowing or declining momentum also in the fourth quarter and into 2020, given the overall uncertainty and low level of activity in your markets?
Of course, the market is challenging, at the same time, if you look at the first nine months here, not always only the quarter, services has been growing. We have seen elements in the services where Wärtsilä can bring value. You have seen agreements growing in energy. We have seen our customers using more Wärtsilä spare parts in marine. At the moment, I'm not worried. I would rather say it's a stable development, who knows about the future. So far, our customers have realized why they should use Wärtsilä for the services. Let's see how it develops.
Okay, thank you. I'll get back in the queue.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line, Antti Suttelin. Please ask your question.
Yes, thank you. I am just curious, why did the fall in marine equipment happen now? We have seen 20-year low contracting already for some quite time. It has been looking like, until now, that you have been protected by gas carriers and cruise and ferry. Now, it was a clear fall in equipment orders. Why now?
Thank you. Please remember now, if you compare Q3 last year to Q3 now, it's a scrubber. That's a big difference. Of course, if nobody orders any scrubbers, then we just forget it, but that's not going to be the case. Then cruise and ferry, I think Roger already explained it a bit, that the cruise orders, because there is a huge time period before they finally will get the ships out, they can actually negotiate and play with the exact timing of the orders. I don't know, LNG, Roger, do you want to comment a bit? Is there any specific in Q3? I don't know.
Not any specific. If you look at, yes, gas carrier orders in general are slightly below last year's levels. Last year was really good. All activities we see is that gas carrier orders will continue from a vessel contracting point of view. That's not a change. If you look at going back, since we have had very low contracting now for quite many years, we are actually at the new build level now that we probably saw somewhere during 2016, quarterly levels. We have managed to utilize our flexibility. We still see that as a strength to support different segments. I have not seen any major change to that part.
As I said before, we are not immune to the vessel contracting going down at the moment, but from a big picture point of view, if you exclude the scrubbers that we will continue to see big deviations on, I don't see a major difference.
On the scrubbers, the overall tone in the industry appears to have improved. We've seen some of your competition booking a comeback in scrubber orders. Is there any market share change in the game also?
During the last quarter, no big difference as far as we see it. There are not exact reliable figures available from any third parties. There are indications that we also use, but not from that part. I think we have the same comment as we have seen also from other players in the market, that assuming now that the fuel spread is continuing to be where it is, we have still for our customers, a very good business case to install scrubbers. Let's take out the concern some might have about HFO availability import and the fuel spread continuing. I think we will see more uptake on scrubber orders next year for retrofits.
I think in the scrubber business also, the situation is today that if you order now scrubber, you will be anyway late for the 1st of January. That's why many of our customers are saying that they will want to see the situation 1st of January, and then they make a decision.
On top of that, in some segments, there are really good day rates at the moment. This is not the time either to start installing scrubbers.
tankers.
They want to utilize those day rates and then come back to scrubbers later on.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Sean McLoughlin. Please ask your question.
Good morning. Thank you. Looking at Q4 and the very large order book you have for delivery in Q4, I get there's an important component of scrubbers, and they all have to be delivered by the end of the year. Is there a risk of slippage potentially of other projects into Q1? How have you prepared the business for this best ever Q4?
Thank you for the question. Yes, the Q4 is really large, of course, there is a huge amount of engines and normal products what we deliver. Of course, we take care that they will all go out. At the same time, there is a huge amount of scrubbers. As already Roger hinted that in some, specifically there is one segment in the marine market, which are the tankers. They are earning so well with the day rate. If you have any tanker as a customer, you might see there some risks. Of course, we are taking care of that one with our customers. Now I talk about retrofitting business. We take care of the deliveries out, and still, we need some our services business to perform as it has.
We still need couple of our energy orders in the pipeline to be signed, and then we can also start delivering them out. This is the picture for the Q4, but you are right. Of course, now all the operations in Wärtsilä has to work very smooth and perfectly.
Thank you. A quick follow, if I may, just on the services. I didn't quite understand the fall in penetration of the installed base of long-term service agreements. What exactly has caused that, and is this any way of a trend that we can say is actually a headwind on you increasing further penetration of your installed base?
Thank you. That was the Marine. Roger, you can now open it up. What's actually happening there?
Yeah. Thank you for the question. If we look at the reason, we have had two agreements now impacting these statistics, one in Q2 and one in Q3. There are clear similarities on both of these agreement. Both are two-stroke agreements with huge megawatts involved. In the Q2 change, the agreement ended and customer decided to renew only half of those vessels for agreement, and the other half, due to operational reasons, would go into a normal transactional business. Now we also had a two-stroke agreement that ended in Q3. Very small financial impact. These are really tiny components if you look at that, what we have supported from an agreement point of view. When you look at the sales development, I'm not worried. It looks bad in these statistics, and we need to come back later on how we can picture this better.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Robert Davies. Your line is open to ask your question.
Yeah. Thanks for taking my questions. My main question is just really around some of the discussions you're having with your customers around the technology adoption. You've highlighted, I think, on some previous calls, some of the challenges, I guess, from kind of elevated reserve margins or financing. When you're having that conversation with customers more broadly, how are you, I guess, convincing them to sort of stick with the technology type? There's obviously a decision-making process between a battery storage, a reciprocating engine, a large gas turbine. What are the customers seeing? Are you seeing any sort of change in the thought process over the medium term investment? I know the near-term headwinds are quite well flagged, how are those conversations going on a medium-term investment horizon? Thanks.
Thank you. Definitely the tone has changed. Marco meets customers every day. Please tell us.
Yeah. Thank you. Very good point. Definitely, I would say that differs a lot between different geographies as well. If you take the U.S., which is a good example because they actually have already deployed a lot of renewables, and they have bought already a lot of engine from us to balance up the intermittency that you get when you have renewables. There, actually, customers have taken down coal power plants because of the cost reasons and invested in engine-based power plants. It's not the renewable story itself that is driving this, but the cost reasons. When we discuss with customers, we always do the modeling together with the customer. We get the information and data from them and see how is their grid or their region actually functioning.
Then we calculate what is the most optimal based on the patterns that you have in solar and patterns in wind, and what is the most optimal solution just for you and your customer or this region. What is the combination that you should have. They still might have other fossil fuel generation assets as well, and they will say that these will be keep a certain years because of the value that they have. They might need the base load as well, and gas is cheap, especially in the United States, they want to keep those. Then we factor in that daytime schedule as well. Rest of that, we will see, okay, what is the mix that you should have. This is basically the decision-making point that you add batteries, you add engines, and you have invested in renewables.
I would say the batteries and engines are the two solutions today that cover the flexibility need that our customers have. They are not competing, they're actually complementing each other. That's why we feel that we are actually the flexibility solution provider for our customers when they have the need. Of course, in emerging markets, it might be different because if you don't have the huge amount of renewables in your plans yet, then they need just a flexible base load. That's why we are competing with turbines in those markets.
Thank you. My follow-up was just how you're thinking about, I guess, the medium-term margin targets. Given the sort of evolution of pricing dynamics, some of the changes of order rates and scrubbers, et cetera, over the next year or two, how are you thinking about that 14% margin target? Is that something that you're internally, formally sort of giving up on? Is there any reason you should ever be able to get back to that level? How are you thinking about the group margin progression over the next few years?
Of course, we look at these targets and what we have been talking about being between 10 and 14. Clearly this year, because of the one-offs, we are not going to be there. We are not going to give up any of these targets. As I said earlier, we are going to have, for example, for the next year, very challenging year. Let's get back to the next year numbers then later on. Definitely also we have our capital markets day in November where at least I would like to open up it a bit more. Today, the visibility is so low that it's extremely difficult to talk about next year. Even, how do you know then about the following years and so on. The targets we haven't been giving out.
When do we reach them is then the next question. Let's get back to that one in November.
Okay. Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Tom Skogman. Please ask your question.
Yes, this is Tom Skogman from Carnegie. I don't really understand what you mean by these EPC projects. Is it one of these old nuclear projects that you have problems with? I have a follow-up after that.
No. You mean now EPC in energy. We have three projects. One, as I said, was in Finland, that's a LNG terminal in Hamina. We do it as an EPC with Wärtsilä Gas Solutions. We have two EPC power plant projects in two different countries. Unfortunately, we cannot open the discussion about the countries or the project specifically, because of the customer reasons. They are our normal power plants, not nuclear. Nuclear, we have already closed last year, and that's not in relation to this one. Two normal power plant projects in very challenging markets where we didn't take into account all the challenging environment reasons.
All right. Just talking to investors, it's clear that many people have the view that all the value in Wärtsilä at the moment is in service, but they don't know the service profitability, and we are all afraid that cost-cutting will be too small on the energy equipment side, and that you will start to have big losses there. Can you help us to open up where you really make the money so that falling earnings next year are not just starting to frighten the market, that service profitability would be plummeting as well?
Tom, I'm not going to open it up how much do we make money in service compared to the new equipment. You already today know how much we make money in marine and how much we make money in energy. We all know that service is profitable, but within services, of course, spare parts is better than anything else. This is everything what we want to open up at the moment. You are right, half of Wärtsilä's business is today services, and that's really supporting, of course. We need to get our new equipment in order so that at least we don't have any one-offs. That's at least today, pretty much now cleared and so that we can go forward.
Okay. Thank you.
Thank you.
Your next question comes from the line of Ed Maravanyika. Please ask your question.
Hello. Good morning, Jaakko and team. My question just relates to the Self-Help Cost Improvement Program you announced at the beginning of the year. How is that coming on in terms of progress, and how do we expect that to maybe stable some of these issues that you have discussed today on the projects, et cetera?
Thank you. We started it really, as you said, in January, aiming for EUR 100 million savings and basically with the cost estimate of EUR 75 million. The program is progressing quite well according to the plan. In addition to this original program, we actually added a bit to that one in September, really looking at what's going on in energy. We announced a bit further saving program. That has started and going on accordingly. So far, I'm not start opening about the savings where we are, but that's really going forward, and a lot of those savings is going to be there next year. So far, of the EUR 75 million, I think we might have even reported it somewhere, we have spent EUR 56 million.
56.
50 Yes.
Okay. Thank you.
There are no further question at this time. Please continue.
All right. Any further questions here in the audience? No. I thank you all for this one, and let's get back to the new numbers then in January. Thank you. Bye-bye.