Good day, and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the trading update for the three months ending 30th of September, 2024 . At this time, all participants are in a listen-only mode. After the speaker's presentation, there will be a question-and-answer session. To ask a question during the session, you will need to press star one one on your telephone. You will then hear an automated message advising your hand is raised. To withdraw your question, please press star one one again. Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speaker today, Kean Marden. Please go ahead.
Thank you, Sandra. Good morning, everyone, and thank you for joining us. I'm Kean Marden, the recently appointed Head of Investor Relations, and I'm joined here today by James Hilton, Chief Financial Officer, to present Hays' Q1 2025 results. Before we begin, please be aware that this call is being recorded, and the replay is accessible using the number and code provided in the release. Please be aware that our discussions may contain forward-looking statements that are based on current expectations or beliefs, as well as assumptions of future events. There are risk factors which could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed in or implied by such statements. Hays disclaims any intention or obligation to revise or update any forward-looking statements that have been made during this call, regardless of whether these statements are affected by new information, future events, or otherwise.
I'll now hand you over to James.
Thank you, Kean. Good morning, everyone, and thanks for joining us today. I'll present the key points and regional details of today's trading update before taking questions. As usual, all net fee growth percentages are on a like-for-like basis versus prior year, unless stated otherwise. Group fees decreased by 14%, with temp down 10% and perm down 20%. Net fees in the quarter were down as expected, reflecting the tough market conditions, particularly in perm, where we see longer time to hire and low levels of confidence, which we expect to continue. The group September net fee exit rate was in line with the quarter overall. I would highlight the following key items from the results. In our temp business, fees decreased by 10% against a strong prior year comparator.
Group average temp volumes decreased by 7%, including Germany down 9%, ANZ down 17%, U.K. and Ireland down 10%, and EMEA up 6%. On a sequential basis, temp volumes remained stable overall, and average group temp margin was flat year- on- year. Perm fees decreased by 20%, driven by volumes down 23%, and this was partially offset by an increase in our average group perm fee of 3%. Activity levels remained subdued but stable through the quarter, and we continue to see longer than normal time to hire, impacted by low levels of clients and candidate confidence. Consultant productivity was up 5% year- on- year, driven by our continued focus on operational rigor and resource allocation. Consultant headcount was reduced by 2% in the quarter and is now down 18% versus prior year.
We also closed seven offices across the group, predominantly in the U.S. and in the U.K. Our program to deliver structural cost savings of circa 30 million per annum by the end of FY 2027 is progressing well. And as a result of our actions, our periodic cost base is slightly below GBP 80 million per period, lower than our previous guidance of GBP 82 million, and we expect this to reduce further through Q2 as we continue to make progress on this program. The group's net cash position was nil, in line with our expectations, down from GBP 86.8 million in June 2024 and driven by normal cash outflows through the summer months and circa 10 million cash outflow from exceptional items. I'll now come on to our performance by each division in more detail.
The largest market of Germany saw fees down 13% year- on- year or 15% on a working day adjusted basis. Temp and contracting fees decreased by 12% or down 14% working day adjusted, with contracting showing greater resilience but more challenging conditions in temp, where we have a greater exposure to the automotive sector. Temp margin and mix was flat versus the prior year, and as I mentioned earlier, volumes declined by 9%. The headwind from fewer average hours worked moderated to -5% in Q1, driven by client cost controls and adverse placement mix changes. In perm, activity levels remained subdued and decreased by 17%. At the specialism level, technology and engineering, our two largest specialisms were down 15% and 18%, respectively. Accounting and finance was more resilient and at 1%, with construction and property up 3%.
Consultant headcount decreased by 1% in the quarter and by 11% year- on- year. In U.K. and Ireland, fees decreased by 20%. Temp decreased 16%, with perm down 26%. Activity levels remained subdued but sequentially stable in the private sector, where net fees declined by 18%. The public sector was tougher, with fees down 25% year- on- year and where we saw modest sequential temp volume reductions through the quarter. Perm remains tough but sequentially stable and was down 26% versus the prior year. At the specialism level, accounting, finance, and technology decreased by 23% and 32%, respectively. Construction and property decreased 12%, although Enterprise was more resilient and up 1%. In Ireland, our fees decreased by 24%, and our consultant headcount decreased by 2% in the quarter and 17% year- on- year.
In ANZ, fees decreased by 20%. Temp fees were down 13%, with perm down 32%. The private sector decreased by 21%, with the public sector down 17%, and while market conditions remain challenging, activity levels were sequentially stable through the quarter. At the specialism level, construction and property decreased 19%, while finance and technology decreased by 20% and 12% respectively. New Zealand remained tough, with fees down 42%. ANZ headcount was flat in the quarter and down 27% year- on- year, which drove an increase in consultant productivity for the third consecutive quarter. In our Rest of World division, comprising 28 countries, fees decreased by 9%. Perm was down 16%, with temp fees up 3%, driven by volume growth.
EMEA ex-Germany, the Americas and Asia were down 11%, 2%, and 10% respectively, with overall activity stable across all three regions through the quarter. In France, our largest Rest of World country, fees were down 17% against a prior year, a record prior year comparator. However, the Olympic impact was more modest than feared, and consultant productivity increased by 7%. North America has been an early beneficiary of our business line prioritization, resource reallocation, and operational efficiency initiatives. These actions have improved consultant productivity by 30% year- on- year, and significantly improved profitability versus losses made in Q1 prior year. In Asia, profits increased by 7% versus the prior year, driven by mainland China fees up 11% and returning to profitability.
The Rest of World as a whole, consultant headcount decreased by 2% in the quarter and by 20% year- on- year. Moving on to current trading and guidance, and I highlight the following key points: Overall, we expect near-term market conditions will remain challenging. Activity levels in both temp and perm are sequentially stable in Australia and New Zealand, EMEA, Asia, and the Americas, but remain at subdued levels, driven by low levels of client and candidate confidence and longer time to hire. The U.K. and Ireland has seen a modest sequential reduction in temp volumes in the public sector, while perm remains tough, with stable but no clear signs of improvement in activity. In Germany, contracting volumes are stable and in line with our expectations, whereas temp is more challenging due to our exposure to the automotive sector.
We continue to see the impact of lower temp and contracting hours worked and currently anticipate a circa 5% headwind in Q2. Perm activity remains at subdued but stable levels. We believe our consultant headcount capacity is appropriate for current market conditions, and we expect this will remain broadly stable in Q2 2025. It is difficult to predict the shape of FY 2025, given we only have limited forward visibility. But based on what we currently know, unless we see a material recovery in end markets, we continue to expect that pre-exceptional operating profit in H1 2025 will be sequentially lower than H2 2024. And overall, while it is difficult to predict timing, we know when our markets will recover. When they do, we will be firmly focused on delivering a high drop- through fee growth into profit growth.
I'll now hand you back to the administrator, and we're happy to take your questions.
Thank you. As a reminder, to ask a question, please press star one one on your telephone and wait for your name to be announced. To withdraw your question, please press star one and one again. Please stand by while we compile the Q&A roster. We will now take the first question coming from the line of Rory McKenzie from UBS. Please go ahead.
Good morning, it's Rory from UBS. Three questions, please. Firstly, on Germany, can you split the volume trends by temp and by contractor? And also, just how much of the region is the auto temp business that you called out? And more broadly, in Germany, given that the weakness in that key sector, how are the rest of the KPIs looking? Is there any sense that the weakness there could spread elsewhere? Secondly, in Rest of World, where you've talked about, you know, a generally sequentially stable picture, can you focus in on the Americas? It sounds like in what's a tough market, you've managed to perhaps improve your on the ground productivity there, and whether there are similar improvements for other regions to come.
And then finally, just on the costs and the exceptionals, should we expect any further exceptional costs expensed this year? And can you just give us guidance on the cash exceptional impact of last year's exceptionals, please? Thank you.
Right. Thanks, Rory. I think I managed to get seven or eight questions in there, but I'll pick them all off in turn. So I'll start off with Germany and the volume trends between our contracting business and our temp business. And just to put some numbers around that, we continue to see year-on-year volume decline in contracting at around 3%-4%. That's pretty consistent with where we were in Q4. And in the contracting side of the business, while we continue to see lower starters year- on- year than where we were twelve months ago, we're also continuing to see lower levels of finishers and clients continuing to hold on to workers.
So overall, you put that together, and it's a relatively stable trend. So as you know, we lose a certain amount of volume in the summer as people come to the end of contracts, and then we look at the rebuild through, obviously through the, as we come out of the summer, and that's in line with normal trends, and that gap has not widened. Temp, on the other hand, is more challenging, as I highlighted in the statement. And if I put that into context, we had a normal level of finishers in the summer, and then the rebuild in post-summer has been slower than what we would expect, and that's clearly widened the gap from a year-on-year perspective.
So from a gap of around about 9%, as we exited Q4, they're currently at about 17-18% on temp volume, year-on-year, down. So that has clearly widened. You put all that together, that gets you to the 9% year-on-year reduction in volume. I would highlight that the temp business for us is clearly smaller than the contracting business. We have about fourteen and a half thousand total workers, and around 3,700 of those workers are in temp. And of that temp number, about 40% are in the automotive sector, so around about 1,600 or so temps in that. So it's about kind of 10-12% of our overall German.
It's about 10% of our overall German business is in the automotive sector. And clearly, that's more challenging. I mean, the number of starters we're putting in specifically into the autos is about 50% down on where we would expect to be. Actually, elsewhere in temp, it's pretty resilient, actually, and we're seeing pretty resilient trends similar to what we're seeing in contracting. And the other key thing I'd highlight, and I mentioned in the statement, Rory, which is relevant, is that, you know, we clearly talked last year about the headwind of hours working being lower year- on- year.
And while that's still the case, and we expect it to continue into Q2, it's less of a headwind than where we were six or nine months ago, and that's, you know, that's fairly pretty stable. So I hope that's given you a feel for, I guess, overall, the run rate in Germany and how we're looking at it. And then clearly, you know, will that temp weakness continue into Q2 in the auto sector? Yes, it could do, and I think we have to be reflective of that. And clearly, you know, that's fairly challenging, but elsewhere, I feel that things are pretty stable overall. Second question I'll pick up on was this, the Americas question and specifically around the U.S.
And actually, you know, I think at the top line, Rory, we've seen a relatively stable trend now in the U.S. since around February, March time. But it's certainly. You know, I've been pretty encouraged by the action on the ground by the team there. And I think this is, for me, you know, a good example of the focus and rigor that we've put into the business in that, in the last twelve months there. You can see our consultant headcount is heavily down, but you know, it's not just we've taken the consultants out, we've refocused on and doubled down on our core specialisms within technology and construction and property.
We've closed a number of peripheral offices around the business and refocused back into our heartland, which is kind of on the Eastern Seaboard and in the Southeast of the States. We've switched consultants back out of 180 model, where we felt that in a tougher market, there was less sales focus than we'd like and got more consultants back onto 360 desks. And all that has been really quite positive on our productivity, which is up 30% year- on- year, and actually, at the bottom line, transformed that business from a loss-making business 12 months ago into a, you know, into a decently profitable business now, and that's about GBP 1 million a month swing on the bottom line, which I think is quite significant for a business of that size.
You know, do we have opportunities to replicate that elsewhere? Yes, we do, actually, and that's what we're busy working on. So it's not sort of overnight success. It's hard yards of good basic operational rigor and attention to detail, but I think that's been a really good story, and I think the team over in the Americas have done a really good job on that. Third question was on costs and exceptionals. I mean, clearly, we've put in there in the guidance around the H1 on a year versus the H2 on a pre-exceptional basis, and partly that was because the prior year first half we had an exceptional. So we have to be you know reflective of that in the wording we use.
Whether we have one or not, this half, it remains to be seen. I'm only three months into the year, and clearly there's lots of tests around what's exceptional and what's not. Clearly, we are incurring some non-recurring items in the project, specifically in the back office projects, which are progressing well. Whether they, you know, ultimately tick all the boxes of an exceptional, which obviously there's a relatively high bar for that, we'll have to wait and see where we get to for the half year. But we are incurring some non-recurring costs at this stage, which we expected to as a result of those projects. And those projects are progressing quite well, and you can see that impact on the cost base as we've moved through this half.
Hopefully, that... Does that cover everything, Rory? Forgive me if I've missed something.
Yeah. No, thanks, James. I'm sorry, I gave you three broad topics rather than three questions, but no, thank you. Very helpful.
Thank you.
Thank you. We will now take the next question coming from the line of Remi Grenu from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Yes, morning, and thanks for taking my question. So the first one is on perm and the job flow. I think you previously said that was at the publication, that job flow had weakened in June, and that yeah that was one of the driver of the weakness at group level. So I'm just interested in hearing what you're seeing these days and what you've seen through Q1 in terms of job flow on the perm side and conversion rate on these interviews and these meetings you've been doing. That's the first question. The second one is on, if we put the U.K. and Germany on the side where you flagged some specific pockets of weakness, any other countries where you saw lower volumes?
I'm probably more specifically talking about France and what you are seeing there, if the overall macro and political environment had any impact or has contributed to any weakening of trends through Q1. The last question is on the cash position, which yeah is down quite significantly year on year. Just wondering if you might consider taking more drastic measures to preserve cash, like cutting the dividend, for example. Thanks.
Thanks, Remi. The line just broke up slightly on one of the questions, so if I missed a bit of it, just please come back to me. So the first question on perm job flow, you're absolutely right. We did have a disappointing June, if we think back to Q4, but it was largely U.K. in the run-up to the election, and also in France, if we remember back to that quarter, where in the run-up to their own elections and the Olympics, we saw a bit of a stall in activity.
Actually, interestingly, if I look at job flow through the summer, and if I look at interview numbers on jobs, and then if I look at conversion of that into placements, adjusting for what we would normally expect to see through summer, 'cause clearly we get lower job flow as people go on holidays and aren't around, but actually, it's been relatively. I'd say it's been a relatively stable period of time. So when we talk about activity overall at the group, that, for me, kind of puts it all together in terms of the level of business that's coming in, the activity we've got on that, and ultimately, the conversion of that through to successful placement has all been pretty stable overall. I haven't seen a movement in trend around the conversion.
I think we, you know, we've talked for some time around longer time to hire and elongated processes and fragile confidence. I would say that that's still the case, and you can see that in our perm numbers across the business, but there's still reasonable amounts of job flow coming through. I haven't seen a real change in that dynamic through the last three months, and it's pretty consistent with where we were overall for the previous quarter, so I don't think there's any real trend to highlight there, and hence our comments, Remy, that perm has been stable across the business overall through the quarter, and that goes into September as well.
That second question was just, you know, I think, and this is where the line broke up, so forgive me if I've missed it, but, the U.K. public sector, clearly a little bit more challenging. Germany temp, a little bit more challenging. Is there something else around the group that's offsetting that? I think was the sort of overall question to be pretty stable overall. We have some little pockets around the group where things are a little bit better. Actually, China was better through the quarter. You can see that in our numbers, and that moved forward from the previous quarter. And importantly, you know, consistently profitable, which is good. Actually, one or two pockets of Europe continued to be pretty good. We actually had a record quarter in Italy, and Portugal was up.
Southern Europe generally continues to be more upbeat. Actually, in the Americas, North America, the U.S. pretty flat. Actually, in Canada, we had a better quarter as well. You know, not major markets for us, but you know, a few areas around the group that were a little bit better. But you know, it's kind of been offset, I'd say overall, with a couple bits of weakness elsewhere. Finally, I'll pick up on cash and you know, your question around dividend. The cash performance, if you look over the last five or six years, we've typically had a swing from June to September of around sort of GBP 40-50 million of cash outflow, and this quarter was the same.
And if I put on top of that, the cash impact of exceptionals. Actually, I think we've already asked that question. I'll cover it now. We had GBP 10 million in the quarter of cash out on the prior year exceptionals. So you add that on top, and that's kind of where we are at a nil cash balance. I do expect that to improve. In Q2, we normally have a better cash month in quarter in Q2. Clearly, it's a higher profit quarter, 'cause we don't have summer, and also we tend to, you know, we get out the summer where people are slower at paying and expect to have a better cash quarter. Clearly, I've got a GBP 30 million dividend to pay in November as well.
Regarding future dividends, now, clearly that's a discussion and a decision for the board at a future event, and date and time, and that will be made on, against the situation then. So I've got no comment on that at this stage. Remi, is that did that pick up everything? I'm just conscious that the line did crackle a little bit halfway through.
Yeah, you addressed 95%. Just one thing remaining. Is there anything specific to call about France, given the political macro environment? I mean, we have just had the budget, so I know it's very early days, but discussions with clients there, and if there is, because to me, the environment would feel like it might put a little bit more pressure on hiring decision, hiring intentions there. So yeah, just your view on that.
Yeah, France, it's been an interesting period actually. As I spoke about, we had a bit of a slow end to the previous quarter as we ran into that election period. And then we were quite cautious, to be fair, partly because of that, and also because of the Olympics and what impact that would have combined with the French summer holidays, which clearly impacts us quite heavily in July. Actually, you know what? It's not been quite as bad as we feared it would be. You can see that whilst we're heavily down year on year, actually, France last year had a record August, September and October. So three months in a row, they hit an all-time record. So pretty tough comparatives.
If I look overall in France, it's pretty stable, and that's slightly ahead of what we were expecting, actually. I, you know, I wouldn't say it's suddenly bouncing back strongly, but certainly it's not as bad as we feared it might be. About 70% of our business in France is in perm. Clearly, it's you know, it has that element of volatility as well. Hopefully, that gives you a little bit of a feel for where we are in France.
Yes, that's great. Thanks very much.
Thank you, Remi.
Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Afonso Osorio from Barclays. Please go ahead.
Hello, guys. Good morning. Yeah, you've already covered a lot. I just have one last question from me, at least. On that SG&A line, going forward, I mean, James, we spoke about this before. I think, you know, the GBP 82 million run rates you were doing and for guidance into this year, probably now it's a bit better at GBP 80 million or slightly below. I did say in the press release. So should we expect a continued improvement on this particular figure going forward?
And if so, what would obviously the bridge to get there, and what would be a comfortable level for that, you know, run rate on the cost line for you for the remainder of the year? And, you know, what was the right number for you? I mean, in terms of as you see now, the markets, what are you doing into the second quarter and into next year? Just wondering how should we think about that SG&A line, and the run rates into second half of this year?
Yeah, great. Thanks, Afonso. So very clear question. So yeah, back in the prelims, we guided to around GBP 82 million, and clearly, we've come in a bit lower than that, sort of between GBP 79 million and GBP 80 million on a periodic basis. There's a few reasons for that. Clearly, our consultant headcount a little bit lower than we'd expected. We're down 2% in the quarter versus flat was our expectation. So that's a small part of that. I think we also got more benefit, and it's difficult to know exactly where you are, 'cause I only have, at that point, one month close on my P&L. So, you know, and that's July, which is a low-cost month anyway. So you kind of naturally quite hard to make a call exactly.
But it's clear that we've definitely got more benefit from the restructurings that we made in Q4, and that flowed into Q1. And that's, you know, that's. I think we got a little bit more benefit, perhaps than we'd fully factored in. And then you factor in the pay reviews that were coming in in July on that as well, and you get a little bit of a compound effect of that. And the other thing I would just highlight is we are a little bit ahead on some of our efficiency programs as well, which are in flight now, and that again contributed to that slightly lower cost base through the quarter.
If I look forward to next quarter, you know, we've clearly kept our headcount guidance from a consultant perspective. I expect that to remain flat, pretty flat over the next quarter. No material change from that. I do expect to see some ongoing benefits of the efficiency programs coming in in the next quarter. We've got, you know, some, a couple of things we'll complete in the quarter, which will bring that down again. So I'd probably, you know, I think somewhere around the 79 mark is probably sensible as we move through the next quarter, moderately lower than where we were this quarter.
Okay, that's helpful. And just as a follow-up to that, in terms of keeping, you know, the, you know, the net fee earners in place for the potential recovery in the second half, is that still the base case? Are you still maintaining the, you know, the consultants in place for to position yourself for recovery, or is that changing now?
Yeah, I think, I mean, you know, we've seen pretty stable conditions. I think has been the sentiment from this quarter. And on that basis, we expect to keep our current capacity where it is. We feel that it's appropriate for the markets we're in today. That doesn't mean that we're not doing an awful lot of work, best aligning that capacity to where we see the market opportunities. And that's, you know, that's our focus at the moment. You've seen some of the effects of that in the discussion we had on the U.S. was a good example, but that's going on everywhere.
We spoke about at the prelims, around 400 consultants or so in across the business, moving around the group into different parts of the business and focusing on what we think are structurally important markets, where we've got good opportunities and actually tactically moving away from some areas or downscaling some areas as well. So that is going on apace and will continue to do so, but we expect the overall capacity to stay pretty constant.
Okay, got it. Thank you.
Thank you. We will now take the next question from the line of Sanjay Vidyarthi from Panmure Liberum. Please go ahead.
Morning, James. Just following up on costs, actually. Can you just remind me the GBP 30 million of cost savings by FY 2027, is that all structural? And I guess a broader question on costs, on a cost base of about GBP 1 billion, if we were to assume 3% a year inflation, so GBP 30 million of costs increase on an ongoing basis, then this kind of suggests that by the time we get to FY 2027, we've already more than offset that GBP 30 million of cost savings. Is that a fair way of looking at it, or is there more ultimately that can be done in terms of structural cost savings, so that you're not having to run so hard on the top line, to drive that margin efficiency?
So thanks, Sanjay. So the GBP 30 million we talked about at the prelims and obviously today is efficiency in the back office areas. It doesn't touch our front office at all. Those are areas such as finance and technology and other sort of support areas where, you know, our focus is on creating better scalability, less manual process, more automation in those, and how we better align those operations to the business to support that going forward. And as part of that, we see an opportunity to drive some efficiencies through those programs, which is the 30 million. So that doesn't touch the productive capacity of the business at all.
You, you're right in highlighting that our cost base is around about GBP 1 billion a year or so at present, and then clearly, you know, that will move forward over time, naturally, as we have increasing costs. Now, I don't want to predict what our underlying cost inflation is gonna be in three years' time, but clearly, it will go up over a period of time. And what's important, therefore, is that we get back into growth and start growing the business and growing the bottom line. And, you know, my view is growing productivity ahead of inflation is a fundamental prerequisite of our business, and I'm quite encouraged that if you look at...
You know, the highlight for me of this quarter is that our consultant productivity is up 5% year- on- year, and that's a number that, you know, I'm firmly focused on with Dirk, and it's our job to drive that forward and get a better result from the cost base that we've got in the business. That's the fundamentals of getting our business more profitable. So, you know, that's... You're right to highlight that. It, you know, cost is always a headwind for us, but it's about how do we manage our productivity to pay for that.
Perfect. Understood. Thank you very much, James. Cheers.
Thank you.
Thank you. As a reminder, if you wish to ask a question, please press star one and one on your telephone. We will now take the next question from the line of Karl Green from RBC Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Yeah, thanks very much. Good morning. Just one remaining question from me. Just in terms of perm activity and behavior in September, something that's been talked about in that market particularly is the high levels of turndown rates. So going through the whole process, obviously not getting it over the conversion line. So just wondered if in any regions or sectors you've seen any kind of glimmers of an improvement in terms of turndown rates? And I think linked to that, just any kind of sense that there's a resolution coming in terms of this gap that's opened up between what clients are willing to pay on offers and what candidates are willing to accept. Just any kind of nuance on the September, sort of, post-holiday period, please.
Thanks, Karl. I think the short answer to that is no, not really. If I look overall, and I know we don't really talk about exit rates at a micro level, but September, you know, our perm performance in September really did reflect the quarter overall. Overall, it wasn't like we saw a shift in the shape of the quarter from a perm or temp perspective. It was relatively consistent with the trends we saw overall. And I talked about earlier that we continue to see, you know, actually decent levels of activity coming into the business, so you know, the job flow coming in, the interview numbers.
But we're still in that world where we're doing seven and a half interviews on a job, on average across the business to make a perm placement, rather than probably six, which is where you would probably be in a what I would consider a more normal market with more normal levels of confidence. So you're absolutely right that the candidate element of that is definitely a factor as well. The client is clearly also a factor, and they are definitely being more choosy than they would normally be, and candidates are more, a little bit more hesitant.
You know, in a world of relatively low wage inflation now, which is clearly where we are. We're not in the world we were twelve, eighteen months ago. There's less of a catalyst to want to jump, and I think that confidence will be a key driver of that. My own view is, at some point in the future, and I don't know when that will be, the people who've been sat in a job for three or four years will wanna get on with their lives and move on, and that will be a catalyst, but we're not there yet.
Understood. Thanks for that, James.
Thanks, Karl.
Thank you. There are no further questions at this time. I would like to turn the conference back to James Hilton for closing remarks.
Thanks, Sandra. So I think that's all for questions for today. Thank you again to everyone for joining the call. I look forward to speaking to you next at our Q2 results on the 15th of January. And should anyone have any follow-up questions, Kean, Rob, and myself will be available for the rest of the day to take any calls. Thank you.
This concludes today's conference call. Thank you for participating. You may now disconnect.