Earnings Call: H2 2024

Jul 5, 2024

Summary

FY March 2024 revenue fell with AUM, but the 62 bps revenue margin was nearly stable and the 35.5% operating margin remained strong. Management cited a slowdown in outflows, a maintained 72p dividend and improving opportunities in UK, European and global products.

Good morning and welcome to the Liontrust Asset Management PLC investor presentation. Throughout this recorded presentation, investors will be in listen-only mode. Questions are encouraged and can be submitted at any time by the Q&A tab situated in the right-hand corner of your screen. Simply type in your questions and press send. The company may not be in a position to answer every question it receives in the meeting itself. However, the company can review all the questions submitted today and publish responses where it is appropriate to do so. Before we begin, I'd like to note the following poll. I'd now like to hand you over to John Ions, CEO. Good morning to you, sir. Good morning, everybody, and welcome to this presentation for Liontrust's final results for the year ending 2024. I'm John Ions, chief executive. With me on my left is Vinay Abrol, chief financial officer, and Simon Hildrey, our marketing director. Presentation today will cover a bit on the financials, a little bit on the background of Liontrust, and a bit of our strategy going forward. I think to put it in context, maybe a few comments at the start on where we have been and where we get to. In the background, Liontrust is a very much specialist asset management business focused on active fund management. It started 28 years ago. I became chief executive a little over 14 years ago. We've got offices in London, Luxembourg and Edinburgh. As I said, a very experienced management team here. We have eight different teams, very much focused on the areas that they invest in. Assets under management, currently a little under GBP 28 billion, and the market capitalization of the business is a little over GBP 400 million. As I say, the base tenet behind Liontrust, try to keep the business model as simple as possible. If you've got a good, strong investment process, we try and create the environment for managers to be free to earn the money they want to be able to add value to client portfolios. The importance of that, ever more so as you get into larger organizations or with index funds where money is, if you like, deployed on a market weight basis, it provides little opportunity for price discovery. Cash being allocated to holdings on the back of news, not in absence of good news. So we believe that if we can provide that freedom for the fund management teams and have a strong, disciplined approach to that, we'll get the best results for our clients in the long run. The other side of that contract, very simply, is if they do that, we provide a route to market for the services. We'll talk a little bit later on about the strength of Liontrust's brand. It's the third best recognized amongst the intermediary marketplace. 90% of our clients are in the retail space, and we have excellent distribution, which we'll go on to talk about. If I hand over to Vinay first of all, and he can go through these financials. Yeah. We have the financials slide. There is a lot of numbers there, but maybe I will just pick out some of the highlights there that just show you how the business performed over the last 12 months, the 12 months to the end of March 2024. Before we get onto the actual results, if you look at the cash position and the balance sheet. Liontrust has a very strong balance sheet, no debt. We have GBP 104 million of cash on our balance sheet, and we have a very strong capital position, surplus capital. As a regulated business, we are required to have a certain amount of regulated capital, and for us, just under GBP 23 million. Our surplus capital is just under GBP 80 million. The business is in strong financial health in terms of its balance sheet and its capital position. In terms of the results themselves for last year, if you look at revenues and if you look at revenue margin. Revenues are down as AUM has come down, but one of the key metrics that we look at is our revenue margin. That is effectively revenues divided by our assets under management. That tells us how much are we earning on the assets that we manage. Over the course of last year compared to the previous year, our revenue margin was reasonably stable. It was at 62 basis points, so just 0.62%, and that is very similar. It is down slightly. The number for the previous year was 62.48 basis points, so on rounding it is unchanged, but it is down half a basis point. So, a very small reduction. That should give you some reassurance that we are not slashing fees. We are not trying to sell our funds at below our average revenue margin. It shows that the business is being able to maintain the revenue margin on its AUM without having to cut its fees, which should go on well for the future. It is a good, strong revenue margin. In terms of costs, we have also had a strong performance in the light of revenues coming down. If you look at our costs, there are really two main elements to our costs, our people costs, staff costs, and other admin costs. That is everything else that a fund management business does in terms of property, rent, rates, marketing, administration, et cetera. In terms of non-people costs, in an environment where it has been an inflationary environment in terms of the costs that we incur, where inflation has come down, it has been high during the course of the financial year. Our total admin costs, our non-people cost, was reasonably flat. It is up by just under 2%. Our non-people costs were strongly under control. In terms of staff costs, our staff costs come down just over 20%. Again, shows good discipline. We have seen our headcount come down as our revenues and AUMs come down. Also, the way that we remunerate our fund managers, we have a revenue share arrangement with them. For every pound of revenue that comes in for the team that manages funds, they get a portion of that revenue as remuneration. We have a flexible cost base. As our revenue has come down, our staff costs have come down, in particular our fund management costs. What has that resulted in? That has resulted in an operating margin of 35.5% for the year. That is a key metric for us, because that tells us how efficiently we are generating adjusted profit from the revenues that come in. If you look across our peers in the asset management world, in the U.K., that is a very strong number. We are at the, may not be the best, but we are at the top end of operating margin compared to our peers, and that shows you that we have got good control over our costs. Just to give you some context to that, last year was 35.5. The year before was just under 38%. The operating margin has come down, and that is just part of the operational gearing, which just works in reverse as it works when we are growing. It just shows that even though it has come down, it has only come down marginally, and it still shows that we are running a pretty efficient business. That financial performance has led to the ultimate outcome, is a dividend shareholder. We have maintained a dividend for the full year at 72p. That is the third year that we are going to be paying out 72 pence dividend. It is covered by earnings, so it is 90% covered, so 1.1 times cover. That 70p is made up of final dividend or a second interim dividend, which is effectively a final dividend of 50p per share, or should we pay shareholders. We went ex-dividend yesterday. Today is the record date, and the dividend will be paid on the 9th of August. Overall, although it has been a tough year in terms of flows and our AUM has come down, in the light of that, we have maintained our revenue margin. We have controlled our costs, and we have got one of the best operating margins amongst our peers. That is sort of a high-level summary of the financial performance for the business. I will hand over back to John. Thanks, Vinay. A little context, background. As Vinay said, conditions have been challenging over the last couple of years, and they remain challenging. That sort of depressed demand is cyclical and that long-term view adhered to. If I dip back over the last couple of years, obviously, we have seen interest rates go up, inflation return, geopolitical uncertainties and very narrow performance in equity markets. Effectively, we went from very much a few years ago when we had strong inflows into the business, and if you like, a risk-on environment for investing, to a risk-off environment. The book of business that Liontrust operates is very much equity-orientated. There is a bias towards U.K. equities. Within that, there is a bias towards mid, small-cap. Big book of business in the sustainable arena, which is very much interest rate sensitive. It goes to show, even with a very strong brand and strong distribution franchise, if the investment products you have are not pertinent to where investor demand is, investors move away from risk-on to risk-off, it creates a very challenging environment and backdrop for us. At the beginning of last year, we looked at an acquisition for GAM Asset Management. Ultimately, we were unsuccessful in that. But the purpose behind that acquisition was to broaden out our product range, our investment offering into products that were less correlated to the ones we had and offered wider investment choice. Also to develop a broader distribution franchise in Europe. We have a very good market share in the U.K., and we were looking to broaden out our European distribution. As I mentioned, we were unsuccessful in that, and I suppose there were two things that come to mind from it. What did we lose? Well, obviously, primarily, we lost 18 months of product development, and with the headlines that existed at the time, some reputational brand damage. The way that we monitor the brand and the external sources say that that brand now is back to the position it was, if not slightly stronger than before. In a moment, I'll talk about what we've done on the product development and making sure that the business is in as strong a position as possible for future growth going forward. I think, having highlighted the challenging demands of the rise in interest rates, where investors were getting compensated not to take risk, maybe not in real terms, but to stay away from volatility that we're seeing in markets, and also a cost of living crisis, which saw more rise on people's savings, and withdrawals from pensions. Obviously two pulls against us. But I think it's important to look at, and we sit here this morning with the dawn of a new government, and the market's reaction to that has been saying that this may be slightly positive. But I think in the interactions I've had, with the Labour policy side from Rachel Reeves, is very much a pro-business, pro-growth environment. The fact that Labour now have a large majority will ultimately give some stability to the outlook. That's important given the very small percentage of the U.K. equity market that we own domestically. The U.K. government has less than 1% in U.K. equities there, and as a whole, we own about 4%. So much lower levels than international marketplaces. To get economic growth, which is the forefront of, you get economic growth and investment, you get a bigger tax take. So, what does an asset manager do? We deploy the capital that allows the economy to function. I've been encouraged from comments from government that simplification of the pensions system, and encouragement to get more people to save. At present, the savings rate in the U.K. is only 8%. Even if it doubled to 16%, it would be somewhere behind the likes of Australia and the savings levels around the world. So, the demographic is very much a driver and flows. I think the encouragement to drive savings towards the equity market is a tailwind, because without getting efficient public or private markets working, we won't get the economic growth that is there. I also see that the U.K. market, and I'll talk a little bit about it later as well, is very cheap on a national basis. But international investors want to see of the turmoil that has existed on the political front over the last 12 years, international investors have stayed away from the U.K. And I think this period of stability will help bring us back. I read a report this morning, which is a survey of wealth managers across the U.K. who all see, and it was something like 94% of them see the U.K. as offering good value. This is after a period where outflows from U.K. equities over the last four or five years have got us back to this very low level. The de-equitisation caused by Truss and Kwarteng with their ambitious borrowing plans that led to further withdrawals. I think a period of stability and some long-term planning is a favorable backdrop for the investment in it. I want to. Have you got that slide there? Please. There. As Billy said, and touch on, we start with a strong platform, a strong basis. Investments in process, automation, centralization, outsourcing. The things that we want to do inside of Liontrust are the things we can add value on, i.e. the strength of the brand, the distribution, and the investment processes. Everything else, we need to have relationships with to make sure that not only do we offer the strongest and most robust services, but the most competitive ones. On the global equity side, we recently made a hire in Mark Hawtin. He's come with a Marshall Wace and GAM background and will bring a fund with him, but also will put in charge of GBP 1.1 billion of our global equities teams. We had existing global equity franchise. We've got a very strong India fund and a Japanese fund. But we felt that in that space, there's 550 funds in the global space, and we needed to get a better categorization, and delineation, for want of a better word, of our product offering. Mark brings with him a team which is highly regarded and over the first couple of months has integrated well into the business. But that, the global equity franchise is an area where we see we want to grow further. That will sit alongside our global innovation team, which run one tech fund in the last year, an innovation fund, and a global dividend fund. So really a strengthening of the investment proposition there. Looking for that next area where we can grow significant assets in the business. The long-term performance, I could talk on a moment, but what we want is well-articulated investment performance processes with excellent long-term track records. We made changes to the sales side as well. I will touch on, but really, I suppose post-COVID. The back to work of work from home. Most of the management team here are in five days a week, but obviously we do offer that kind of flexibility. I felt that maybe Liontrust had a bit of long COVID. There were a lot of things we were doing, that we were always doing, I just didn't think we were doing them to the standard that we should be doing. I'll talk a little bit in a minute about how we've changed both the distribution in the U.K. and internationally. Finally, we are moving to Aladdin, a BlackRock technology for a front-office sort of portfolio management and research-centric system. So we'll have state-of-the-art information sharing and a management system that combined with a very strong middle back-office that we have, all our support to leading providers, either with BNY Mellon or through Aladdin, will enable us to have significant scalability, flexibility, and efficiency across the business to go forward. Go on, Sonia. I touched about the brand briefly, and I'm not going to read these points out, but it does show the levels of engagement and the fact that our unprompted advertising recall with investors is getting us back up to the level we needed. We are very much a client-centric business. Talked before about the change from defined benefit to defined contribution, where the individual takes control of their own pension products. So trust is one of the most important things with clients. Recognition, comfort, and that is why the brand remains vitally important to us and to have our retail offering with a strong brand is key and crucial. Go on. On the distribution side, we have two sales teams in the U.K., one covering more the multi-asset or broader part of the intermediary market and covering the top side. I felt that as the product suite developed within the company, that it was important to bring those two teams together to give us a level of consistency and targeting, the ability to use data and to support our clients in the best way. In changes at the top with bringing in Kristian Cook. Kristian had been with us for six or seven years, and he has made some changes that are painted there with our strategic partners and key areas of client services. That's brought, if you like, a new energy, vigor, and consistency across that sales team. Again, this data there just showing you where that our level of engagement remains high with all clients. So in a depressed flow environment, clients obviously, you can provide as much activity or events or meetings for clients, but clients have to want to come and hear what our view is. That very much remains true today. On the European side, we brought Jeremy Roberts to head up our European distribution. We already had five people in Europe on the sales side, but it felt that that international distribution was quite narrow and we needed to broaden out the breadth of clients we spoke to. We launched a European pan-European offshore fund four months ago. We've raised GBP 200 million with that. It's on the back of our Cashflow Solution team, where we run the European Dynamic Fund, which in 18 months has gone from around GBP 400 million to GBP 1.6 billion, GBP 1.7 billion. It has won one of awards in the last three years and has strong performance behind it. The key with launching a fund at GBP 200 million in Europe and bringing in Michael Bullock, and Jeremy Roberts, is at GBP 200 million, we can go to a broader range of clients and to larger clients. The likes of UBS would not put it into one of their model portfolios unless it was above GBP 200 million in size. Achieving that threshold early on in the launch of a product provides a very good platform for us to grow, and we have seen how the growth of the U.K. fund has performed. The operating platform and very much that centralization, and efficiencies, the control of the costs that Vinay has talked about with, on the REM, how it is linked to asset size as well. Our desire to create that platform that gives us that scalability to grow the business going forward and to be able to be confident to take on new teams and new businesses as we go forward. Here are the eight teams. The two biggest blocks of business, obviously, is sustainable and Economic Advantage. Also showing where the global innovation team and that was at half of the size it was a year and a half ago. Now adding in the new core global equities proposition as well. Really broadening out the funds that we can show. I want to pick up on one bit, short bit on performance. This very basic and simple chart here, but I think it captures the last three years well, this move from risk off to risk on or risk on to risk off. You can see through 2022 and 2023, the effect it had on performance, and there will be some drag in that obviously through the three and five-year numbers. Very pleasing to see, as we see a thawing of risk off, we look for interest rates coming, maybe one as early as the end of August, but certainly looking at September. That better investing environment for the companies that we invest in. I have highlighted two big books of business. As I said, the struggles with the U.K. market over the last five years, very much that de-equitisation. With the change of government and liberalization of pension laws and encouragement by local authority pension funds particularly to invest back into the U.K., to help power that growth that will give us more economic prosperity as a nation. It shows you there the very depressed level the U.K. equity market sits, certainly relative to U.S., and again, referencing the report I think that Rathbones produced this morning showing that over nine out of 10 managers are looking at the U.K. for invest- going forward over the next one, three, five years. It is important for us that even though, showing the four funds that we have there, very much that focus on process, consistency. We are the building blocks for a lot of client portfolios. The clients invest in this, even if they maybe used three or four groups before, they have gone maybe to two, or they have halved their weightings, we have managed to be kept in client portfolios. Those, if you like, pipes or routes to market are open for that. And if you look at the exceptional long-term performance of the funds there, it is a very compelling proposition for clients looking to invest in all parts of the U.K. market, from small cap or micro-cap through to large cap. The sustainable investment team, again, for every challenging period performance-wise over five years, reflecting that interest rate sensitivity. But whilst you can talk about the ifs and whens of allocations back to the U.K. equity market, I still think investment in sustainable is very much, you call, more of a megatrend. I think the recent regulatory changes in Europe with the SFDR and the introduction of the FCA's sustainable classifications this month will provide an area of competitive advantage for us. A team which has got a +20-year track record and a very focused investment process, knows what it's doing, will help us to stand out, both with an intermediary market who is questioning about what are the implications of the changes, but also with the general public that will be allocating more money towards sustainable investment. Also at a time when you can see the groups in Europe moving backwards from SFDR Article 9 categories to six or eight, reflecting this, if we do not do exactly as it says on the tin, we are subject to regulatory fines. So really, if you like, clarifying out the greenwashing. So having an investment process that stands true to what it is key for us, and again, very pleasing to see an improvement in the short-term performance going forward there. So really, to summarize and to finish, there's a very good base to the business. The brand is strong. I think the distribution is there. I think the investment, the improving outlook and ability in the U.K. economy and investment outlook is favorable for us. Our job is that to be, where the wind blows in that direction, want of a better word, is to have as much sail up as possible. We have a phrase internally, which is always the relentless pursuit of the basics. So I think with a good solid operating platform, a strong brand, a well-differentiated investment proposition, it puts us in a good place, especially having come through what across the industry has been an incredibly challenging two-year environment. At that point, I'm very happy to take questions or move on. But thank you very much for your time. Yeah. Thank you. Perfect. John, Rene, thank you very much for your presentation. Ladies and gentlemen, please do continue to submit your questions just by using the Q&A tab, which is situated on the top right corner of your screen. Just while the company take a few moments to read the questions that have been submitted today, I would like to remind you that a recording of this presentation, along with a copy of the slides and the published Q&A, can be accessed via your investor dashboard. As you can see, we have received questions both pre-submitted and throughout today's live presentation. Simon, if I could just hand over to you just to read out those questions where appropriate to do so. I will pick up from you at the end. Or the analyst will. Yeah. Thank you. There is a number of questions. There is a few themes. The first one, the first theme is about analysts and their kind of notes on Liontrust and a downgrade on Liontrust. We respond to the analysts all the time, so. Yeah. No, I think, we have seven analysts who cover us. If you look at their notes, the majority are positive on the business. They highlight the concerns around flows. I think they note the improving performance. Yes, I think overall, if you look at the seven who cover us, four of them have a buy rating, two are hold, and one is sell. Overall, a strong bias towards a buy. In terms of downgrades, yeah, that is right. The analysts have done a small downgrade to their numbers. I think one actually has upgraded slightly, so they were a little bit lower than where we ended up last year. But small downgrades, they are 1%-3%, I think, across the board. I think that just reflects the flow outcome for last year and where we have ended up AUM-wise. We gave an update of AUM on June 20 with our results, and there will be a further trading update next week. In light of that, there is a bit of mark-to-market. When you get your annual results out, there is always a realignment of numbers going forward as we give greater guidance and actual hard numbers on revenue margin and the like. Yes, I think it is a caution from the analysts, which is taking into account the tough year of flows that we have had, and looking forward into the next three years. I think there is no and actually, the reassuring part is that you have got four of the analysts who cover us with buy ratings. The next question kind of picks up on some of that in terms of the AUM. When will it start increasing? I know you are asked this quite a lot. Yeah. I think if you look at where we are, obviously GBP 6 billion of outflows is a good position. It roughly split down to about GBP 1.5 billion a quarter and guidance at the market at the moment about just a little shy of GBP 900 million probably. There's been a slow down, as in we have less on the outflow side, but still not necessarily where we'd want to be. I think when I talked about the two big books of business, if I look at those flows, it was probably around GBP 200 million a month coming out of the U.K. book of business. In the short term, those outflows slowed considerably, and I think the outlook, again, the reference points which you look for as to where people's attitude are, that valuation opportunity that exists, maybe the direction of travel, I think things like the British ISA, the quantum doesn't change anything, but the mood music around things probably does change. I think therefore the attractiveness of the U.K. equity market comes more into play. So really, to get away from the outflows or to get into inflows, it's visible to manage that outflow position. So I think a combination of clients now being much happier with those levels, and when I say happier, not wanting to take the money lower, and now it'll be more about the outlook going forward and what people allocate there. With the sustainable side, I think there'll be more clarity around the position with FCA regulations, more focus on the space. I think more money is more likely to be channeled to those areas. Again, very much interest rate sensitivity. So I can see the outlook on those books changing. Then, again, the other side, against that, we've had good growth in a poor market with the European products that we have, and I think the efforts we've put into the global equity side is there. If I look across the industry, it's pretty much a similar position. Maybe some of the groups that have a product suite which is more, well, either one of two places, more in money market or defensive positions have had better flow profiles. But as that money that has been in those more defensive begins to see move more to that risk-on environment, I think the suite of products that we have provides opportunity there. You can see within some of the other groups where you've got more, if you like, risk-on products, the more adventurous investor is investing in those areas. So I think I'm not looking for a dramatic change, but I certainly think as we go through the course this year, we will continue to see good improvement in the flow profile. Certainly, as we go through the rest of the year into next year, market will start to anticipate us going into positive flows. Very much if you look at an asset manager, the old adage is, they behave a bit like a warrant on the stock market. If the stock market is looking to perform well, the asset manager will perform well. If the outlook for the stock market is not good, it is a more challenging environment for the asset manager. I think a combination of stability, lowering interest rates And turn to more sustainable and better economic growth provides a good backdrop for the next three years. Next question's about the dividend. Can it be maintained, particularly if the company stays in terms of where it is financially? Yeah. I think we're paying out 72p dividend for the year just gone, so 50p is going to be paid to shareholders who are on the register as of today, actually. End of today, on August 9. If you look at the analyst forecasts, they're normally a good guidance. They're all 72p for this next 12 months, so for our year that ends March 2025, and 70p in the next two years as well. The analysts are forecasting that. If you look at consensus numbers, so the average of all the analysts who cover us, the consensus is a little bit under, so it's just under 71p. So a little bit under our dividend, so it's uncovered. But when I talked about our financial position earlier, we have a strong balance sheet with over GBP 100 million of cash. We are profitable on an adjusted basis. We're generally profits every month. Even if you look at where the market thinks we are, that's roughly almost averaging GBP 5 million a month profit. So, yeah. We are in a strong financial position. Even if our earnings dip a little bit below the dividend next year or this current financial year, the dividend is maintainable, and the board are very comfortable with the position that we're in. So, you have seen other asset management companies, some of our peers, pay uncovered dividends. So pay a dividend that is slightly more than the after-tax earnings that the company's generated. I think, for us, it's about outlook and confidence. Hopefully, if you read our results statement, you'll see we have confidence. Although it's been a tough time, and it's probably going to be another quarter or two of tough flows, we are confident about the future. Our funds are, on the whole, showing an improving trend in terms of performance. The interest rate environment will hopefully start improving. I think there's no commentators talking about interest rates going up. It's going to be going down. I think there's some confidence to be had for the future. Yeah. I think the dividend and the market is strongly saying that the dividend will be maintained. The final question is about the balance between organic growth and acquisitions and our strategy in terms of that. Yeah. Our strategy is very much, the things that myself, Simon, can affect on a day-to-day basis happen inside the four walls of this business. We have always said that organic growth is the most important to us. It is the growth going forward. The growth going forward will be from the things that we have. Hence, the changes, and the better clarification on the global equity side and the positioning of the product suite. The other point, though, is how do you broaden out the range of investment offerings you have or enhance the distribution opportunities that you have? Two ways to do that. One is to hire new teams. If you hire a new team, it takes three years to get a three-year track record, and you pretty much have to nickel and dime it with all the clients before you can build a product up to a size where your larger clients will engage with you because of their fear of concentration of ownership within portfolios. So that brings in, if you like, the third opportunity, which is acquisitions, be it larger or bolt-ons. And there, what we're looking to do is we're not looking to buy things just to fill silos. We're looking to bring in a new skill set, either on the investment side or on the distribution side. So really, if you like, a fast-forwarding of that grow your own side. And that's important when we went through with the new front-office system and the strong back-office system. Technology is our friend. It is not an expense. To be able to get scalability and flexibility to run a business, having an industry-leading margin enables us, when we do look at acquisitions, to take them on efficiently, quickly, and to get the values out of them. We always need to look at where the dynamics of the market are. We are very much a client-centric business, so we need to know what are clients investing in? What are they looking at? If we haven't got that skill set inside, we would look at the acquisition side. I think in product development, having very focused teams as opposed to if I was at BlackRock, I would have 800 fund managers behind me. If I wanted somebody to run a rates product for me, there would be managers there. Here, we've got very clear teams. We can do product extension. A classic example of that would have been taking the small cap. As that got bigger, we had a redundant, if you like, investment capacity in the bottom end of the small cap, so we launched the micro-cap fund to give us that product extension. Really, all I'm trying to do there is just put in context where we use them. We do look at very much from what does it give to us, what is it adding? Any acquisition we make, we're looking to grow and develop and taking forward. Whilst they get the headlines more than anything else, the focus of the business is very much on the day job and the organic growth. Great. Thank you, John. Thank you, Vinay. Alexandra, that concludes the questions. Perfect. John- Thank you for asking them. Perfect. John, Vinay, Simon, thank you very much for answering those questions as you can. Of course, the company can review the questions submitted today and will publish those responses on the Investor Meet Company platform. Just before redirecting investors, try to do their feedback, which I know is particularly important to the company. John, I was just wondering if you had a few closing comments. Just to thank everybody for their time. We very much appreciate it, and we appreciate the support and investment that we have from people. So thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you very much. Thanks for the time. Perfect. Thank you once again for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close this session, as you know, we automatically redirect it to provide your feedback in order the management team can better understand your views and expectations. This will only take a few moments to complete, but I'm sure it will be greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of Liontrust Asset Management PLC, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good afternoon to you all. Thank you. Thanks so much. Thanks. Bye.