Good morning. This is the conference operator. Welcome, and thank you for joining the Mondi First Quarter Update Conference Call. As a reminder, all participants are in listen only mode. After the presentation, there will be an opportunity to ask questions by pressing star and one on your telephone keypad. Should anyone need assistance during the conference call, they may signal an operator by pressing star and zero on their telephone. At this time, I would like to turn the conference over to Mr. Andrew King, Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead, sir.
Good morning everyone, and thank you for joining the call today to discuss today's trading update. As mentioned, I'm Andrew King, your Group CEO, and with me is c I'm sure you all have seen the announcement this morning, so I'll just pick up on a few points before going into questions. As you would have seen against the backdrop of softer markets, both in terms of volumes and pricing, as expected, we are pleased to report a stable performance in the first quarter of the year. Underlying EBITDA of EUR 351 million is in line with the fourth quarter of last year when you exclude the unusually high fair value gain that we booked in the final quarter of 2022.
The business was impacted generally by softer demand and destocking, which in turn led to some lower selling prices mitigated in part by falling input costs. Our investment in expansionary capital projects continues, and we are making good progress across our project pipeline including importantly at Štětí, where we're growing our kraft paper capacity to meet our customers' demand for sustainable paper-based flexible packaging and the modernization project at our containerboard mill in Kuopio Finland, which we expect to complete towards the end of this year. As always, we remain very focused on partnering with our customers as they continue to move towards more sustainable packaging and paper solutions. With that, we're happy to open up to questions from Mike and I.
Thank you. This is the conference operator. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchtone telephone. To remove yourself from the question queue please press star and two. Please pick up the receiver when asking questions. Anyone who has a question may press star and one at this time. The first question is from Cole Hathorn with Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Mornin Andrew, Morning Mike. Thank you very much for taking my question. Three from my side. The first is on cost inflation. Would you mind just giving a little bit of color? Are we right to assume that, you know, cost inflation's effectively peaking in Q1, and you should get an easing through the rest of the year? In particular just a little bit of color on what you're seeing on your wood costs because there's diverging wood costs between, I think, Central Eastern Europe and the Nordic region. Just some color there on the cost inflation of wood costs. The second is around recycled containerboard pricing or containerboard pricing in general.
I mean we're at a position now where you know, I think we've had a lot of commercial downtime but also a position where the high cost players are into the cost curve. I'm just wondering what you're seeing. You know, do you think we're close to the bottom on containerboard pricing? We've seen some announcements in the market on price increases. Just your thoughts around the ability for price increases or any commentary around that if you can. The final one is on destocking and demand. You've got a number of different end markets. Would you mind just giving a bit of color on, firstly, corrugated packaging, you know, where we are in the destocking cycle, and then flexible packaging as well, maybe splitting that between your traditional bags business and your consumer flexibles?
Thank you.
Cole, thanks. Let me let me take the first one. Andrew can take the next five. The costs input costs are reducing Cole. I think you, you can see that in many indexes, and from others. We've seen that across all cost categories, so energy and the energy-related categories, so Q4 versus Q1, those are falling and continue to fall. You specifically mentioned wood, as we did in the release as well. Wood has been you know high into Q4 and has stayed high in Q1. Probably stayed flat in Q1. We at the year-end certainly called out that we would expect that to fall as the rest of the year happened. We are now seeing that.
It is clearly falling in Central Europe, a little quicker than Scandinavia. I would say the Scandinavia is sort of flattish for us as we sit here today. Certainly in Europe, those wood costs are falling and we'd expect that to continue.
Yes, Cole, on the pricing I mean in a way your questions are interlinked obviously with the demand questions and the pricing environment. In terms of specifically on the containerboard pricing development, as you know I mean Q3 into Q4 was the peak pricing. It then came off quite sharply thereafter, partly also a big due to demand and the destocking effect and obviously also the consequence of a change in the nature of the cost base with a lot of the particularly on the recycled side obviously energy is a particularly important cost, and it came down materially. Obviously that passed through. I you know we've seen further price erosion through Q1 into this year, into the beginning of Q2.
As you rightly say it feels as though, I know this is not exactly sticking my neck out, we are clearly nearer the bottom than the top. It does feel as though there's a sense of stabilizing in that pricing environment now in that market. As you say, there are price increase initiatives out there. We are fully booked in our unbleached grades. We'll, you know, be looking at stats, you know, what the dynamic looks like going into, you know, the back end of Q2 now and into Q3.
I think it's too late for Q2, put it this way certainly there are indications, I think, that one would expect the next move in prices to be up rather than down on the containerboard side. You know more generally on demand I mean, we've said Q1 clearly was softer in terms of the overall industry demand across the piece. No doubt exacerbated by a destocking effect because clearly when people assume price declines, then it's a natural instinct to run down your stocks, and that's undoubtedly what has happened. As I say, that would feel like it's coming to an end, particularly in the containerboard space. Kraft paper, the pricing held up much better through Q1.
I think it, there is price erosion going into Q2. Clearly the demand picture remains, as we say, subdued into Q2 more generally there. In terms of end users around it, I think it's a reflection more generally of an already slowed macroeconomic environment. I think every area of demand has been impacted one way or the other. As you would expect, the more consumer related areas would normally be more resilient. I mean, they have proved, but even there you've seen softness. Industrial applications also softer. It's not any one area where you've seen a softening of demand. It's more general as a reflection of the macroeconomic situation. I think at the same time, you know, particularly on the containerboard side, the signs are stabilizing.
On the kraft paper side, it's a bit more sort of late cycle. Then fine paper, Q1 for the industry, I mean, we again gain share in the, in the face of, you know, other industry players falling out and taking a lot of downtime. I think, while Q2 remains difficult, there are signs of life. I mean, it's nice to see that, for example, the folio business, which is a lot to do with industrial printing and advertising and things like that, seems to be picking up, which is encouraging. I think the cut size market versus office usage, et cetera, remains relatively subdued. I think, you know, as I say, if one assumes a economic pickup, you can also assume that that will also improve over time.
Yeah, it's a mixed picture. I wouldn't want to say we're seeing, we've seen the bottom everywhere in Q2, but it certainly feels as though it's bottoming out.
Thank you.
Long, long answer to a long question.
Thanks, Carl.
The next question is from Justin Jordan with Davy. Please go ahead.
Thank you. Good morning, everyone. I've got, I suppose a 3-point question. Firstly, given it's your most profitable division and the business that you have the largest and market positions in, can you just give us a bit more color on Flexible Packaging, specifically in terms of destocking that may be going on in the world of sack kraft and packaging paper generally for you? Secondly, is there any update on your proposed Russian disposal? I appreciate you still appear to be awaiting approval from Russian government. I'm just wondering if there's any color you can give on that. Thirdly, just on Neusiedler, you announced some modest restructuring recently. Can you just give us a little bit more color on what you're doing in uncoated fine paper generally, please? Thank you.
Sure. Maybe I can work backwards from that. The Neusiedler restructuring, as you say. There are five machines in Neusiedler complex. We are intending to shut one of those machines, being PM6. Neusiedler we've always recognized does best when you fill it with speciality products. The problem with PM6 is it's too big to be filled with pure speciality products, and of course doesn't enjoy the integration benefits, for example, that we enjoy in Slovakia down the road. This restructuring, we believe, will allow the mill to be able to fill with those, you know, the core business, which is the speciality products.
We can reshape the cost base accordingly, and we think that that gives us a very strong position in that niche, specialty fine paper market, with a very compelling portfolio. On Russia, as we say in the press release, we continue to work on that approval. There really is no update, I'm afraid, on that. Our priority remains to divest of our Russian assets. Clearly we are working with Augment, on Syktyvkar and the Gotek Group on the three converting plants to achieve the necessary approvals, which is what is outstanding to complete on those transactions. On the flexibles, I mean, there's really little more color I can give you than I already spoke to, I mentioned to Cole's question.
I mean, we are clearly the pricing environment was extremely strong through the course of last year, but particularly into the second half. We have seen some price erosion into the beginning of this year and further into the second quarter. Generally it's a softer demand picture, which is fairly natural when you think of the macroeconomic backdrop. You know, our strength in integration, our broad offering, both in terms of the nature, the Specialty Kraft papers through to the Sack Kraft papers and of course our significant geographic reach because although Europe is probably the softest market at the moment, we as you know, are a global business there with a big presence in the Americas, you know, Middle East, North Africa, also very important for us.
That sort of mitigates any one regional or, and/or end use sort of weakness. It's a, you know, it's a more general reflection of the overall macroeconomic backdrop. There's no one area of particular weakness or strength that maybe. I think what's most important though is the structural growth drivers are very much still in place. What we are continuing to see is all the work being done with our customers to drive the innovation around using paper-based solutions to displace less sustainable solutions. Of course, a lot of that involves these kraft paper products.
Also that importantly, you know, the way we increase the functionality of their kraft paper with barrier properties that we use in our functional paper and films business and in turn also the converting we do in our consumer flexibles. There's, you know, those discussions with our customers continue, and we continue to drive all the innovation that I think is very exciting around this whole kraft paper area because that is where we see the biggest opportunity for using these paper-based solutions as, you know, as our customers demand more and more sustainable packaging solutions.
Thank you, Andrew.
Thanks, Justin.
The next question is from Joffrey Bellicha Meller with Bank of America. Please go ahead.
Good morning, Andrew and Mike. Thank you very much for taking my question. The first one I have is considering you are flat quarter-on-quarter on EBITDA, and you've mentioned containerboard was lower in pricing and it seems like demand was still subdued, where was the positive contribution coming sequentially? That would be my first question. The second question I have is that we have seen industry reports on exports of kraft paper to Middle East and Africa, and I was wondering how this was potentially affecting prices heading into the second quarter for you or how you differentiate yourselves there.
Thanks, Geoffrey. No, I mean, the profit Q on Q as you say, if you strip out the fair value gain from last year, we saw, you know, a good performance as Andrew has talked about in kraft paper. So prices were somewhat stable there. And you've heard the cost story. And of course, we had good production and sales in kraft paper, a bit weaker in containerboard and in European UFP. South African UFP, as we said in the release, in good shape.
I think it should never. You know, we talk about the market demand. I mean, clearly we are in an extremely strong position relative to the market. For example, in fine paper, even though the overall market was softer, we gained share in Europe. Similarly in the, in that flexibles business, we have an extremely strong vertical integration position. Even though kraft paper markets might have been a bit softer, obviously our strong vertical integration means we continue to show real resilience. I think to your specific question on MENA, I think you're clearly referring to the Syktyvkar volumes. I mean, Syktyvkar is obviously always going to be looking for alternative markets now that they're excluded from Europe. We always expected them to be seen around in different markets.
We haven't per se seen them any particularly influential in any one of our markets. That Middle East North Africa market is important for us, but it's largely selling to our own converting operations. We have a big converting network there. It's, let's call it captive volume from to our own converters. There's no particular influence that we see from exports from Syktyvkar. You know, you'd have to ask them where they are selling. We don't know.
Fair point. Thank you very much, Andrew. I have a quick follow-up just on the cost re-reduction that you've been mentioning in the release. Could you, if possible, quantify what would be the tailwind that you expect at this stage from, I guess, you know, energy, chemical, and resin costs in 2023? If you could, you know, and if you also have a view on the level of price reduction in wood as well, that would be super helpful. Thanks a lot.
Geoffrey, I wish I had that crystal ball. What we do know is the momentum and the trajectory. That's what I've shared. I mean, it's very difficult to call out the full year. Things will change. I think we've all learned that they tend to change quickly. As I've said, we'd expect wood to continue down. The other ones are continuing to trickling down. Energy you know, is where it is. It's been pretty stable for the last sort of six weeks. Who knows, who knows with energy? A lot of the other costs hang off that energy, you know, some of the chemicals so. Some of it will depend on the economy as well.
I mean, you know, as Andrew has said, we are seeing some early signs of destocking coming to that bottom and some economic activity. That may well change some of the input prices too, as we go into the second half. Our challenge as ever, and we do a good job, is to make sure that we service our customers and charge appropriately. I think we'll have to see where the full year ends up on all of those input costs. The trajectory at the moment is for those to trickle downwards as we go through Q2. Thank you very much.
The next question is from Andrew Jones with UBS. Please go ahead.
Hi. I was also gonna ask about the 2023 cost bridge, but, so I guess that's already been covered. Can you just talk about maybe not cost explicitly, but about margin progression? Obviously you call out that prices and costs will be lower in 2Q. Can you talk about, you know, which one dominates and how you see margin progression into 2Q and, you know, possibly 3Q, given what you know today? Also, if we think about the sort of normalized profitability in the business, I'm curious about what that looks like in each division. I mean, clearly last year was an exceptional year. You know, prices, you know, are normalizing down.
They may not be quite there yet in some grades, I mean, if you couple that with your expectations on what the cost base does and what wood price do, could you just give us a feel for, you know, how far margins are from quote unquote normalized levels in your view? Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, Andy, the normal is an interesting word. I mean, you know, we're a business where the interaction between the two. Just also remind you, we don't run the business by quarter. We haven't talked about our good investments and the belief in our long-term markets yet, but so I'm certainly not gonna get into Q2, Q3 projections because the interaction between the two is not known. I mean, Andrew's been pretty clear, as is the release. I think we see Q2 more difficult than Q1. Therefore, you know, input costs versus where we are on the entry point on the selling prices isn't going to generate more profit in Q2. How that interacts through Q3, we'd expect, as Andrew has said, that to turn.
How sharp it turns, we'll have to see. You know, we are pretty clearly saying in the statement and this morning that we are seeing that bottom in Q2. Into Q3, that relationship will invert, if you like. As I say, you know, the investments that we're making into particularly the two packaging businesses and the core markets where we've got a great offering, you know, will continue to stand us in good stead with our customer relationships going forward. You know, there is no normal. We'd expect to continue to grow the business.
Okay. Makes sense. Thank you.
Okay.
The next question is from, Charlie Morris Sands with BNP Paribas Exane. Please go ahead.
Yeah. Morning. Thank you very much for taking my questions. They mainly need sort of follow-ups. I just wondered on, firstly on wood costs. Can you actually help us by just putting any numbers around where they have moved to so far? Obviously, appreciate the outlook's still uncertain, but, you know, how much was the headwind last year? How much have prices come down from the peak as now? Secondly, regarding the planned conversion of your, of the mill in Italy to containerboard next year. I imagine that the engineering's already underway, but we're obviously seeing others defer those kind of projects given, you know, the price fall that we're seeing and the potential glut in the markets.
Have you got any view on whether it's perhaps sensible to sort of slightly de-defer the start-up there?
Let me take the first one, Charlie. Wood, I mean, Syktyvkar, has probably dropped about EUR 10 a cube from its highs. Of course, you know, Q4 was the high point. Q1's still been pretty flat. You know, who knows where we'll end up year-on-year, cause again, you know, we don't have the visibility. I wouldn't expect sort of, you know, huge gains year-on-year, the trajectory on wood is definitely downwards and therefore as we go through this year, I would expect that to be beneficial sequentially. Hope that makes, hope that's clear.
On Italy, the short answer is no, we haven't changed our plans. We think this is a very compelling investment, and we are working full steam to rebuild the, what is the lightweight containerboard machine into a recycled containerboard machine, as was the plan when we acquired the Duino mill. We believe this will give us a cost-compelling production at a very compelling cost per ton of capacity and remembering we need this volume for forward integration, both into our Turkish business, and it's also well-placed to serve into our Central European business and sell into a relatively underserved domestic market. No, we are continuing with that investment plan.
Charlie, just to broaden that out, that holds for the other projects. you know, We run a good balance sheet, we generate good cash flows, in good times and more difficult times. These investments are long-term, so the other investments that we haven't talked about, these are long-term investments into good markets that we believe in. Again, all the other projects follow the same line, which is we've got a good balance sheet. We absolutely believe in the markets and therefore, those projects will continue to be executed and all remain in good shape and on time.
Great, many thanks. The next question is from Lars Kjellberg with Credit Suisse. Please go ahead.
Thank you for taking my questions. Just have a couple of ones left. Just to try to understand exactly the underlying performance, you called out, of course, the forestry fair value gain, which were disproportionate in Q4. Can you share with us what they were in Q1? Also, you know, maintenance activity, you called out for the whole year, similar to 2022, around the EUR 90 million mark. Last year, of course, you had somewhat elevated maintenance activity in H2. If you can share with us how you're thinking about maintenance activity impacting through the year on a quarterly basis. Then potentially more interesting, I mean, you've fully booked an unbleached grade. I think you called that out back in March, I suppose, when you went for a price increase in the Central European business.
If you can share with us where you stood in Q4 on that metric and how, if any progress has been made with that price increase in Central East Europe. Then on to Russia. Just curious about, you continue to make good profits in Russia. How does that impact your overall cash flow for the group? Are you able to take out any cash from Russia? The final point, the long stop date, has that any relevance? Do we need to be in any shape or form or view that as a pivotal point for the deal or has no real relevance? Thank you.
Lars, thanks very much. Let me start and work through those. On Russia, no, the business does continue to generate cash, and that cash is included in the business as we sell it. We sold the business at a point in time with what we call a locked box mechanism, which basically means that the cash, any risk and reward after that date, stays with the buyer. That's the case there. In terms of the contract, in terms of the long stop date, reminder that's the twelfth of May, for the Syktyvkar deal.
The contract carries on past that date, or what happens after a long stop date in this instance is it gives either party the right to terminate without recourse. As Andrew has said, you know, we have a very clear plan. We continue to work with Augment, and we'll continue to work towards exiting all of our Russian interests. In terms of a couple of technical points, fair value and maintenance at the year-end, you're right. I said the guidance for fair value, a normalized sort of fair value for this business is around EUR 20 million-EUR 60 million. Last year, of course, it was a lot higher, I guessed that this year it would be towards the top end of that number, to call it EUR 60 million.
We true that up, as you know, Lars, every half year. Therefore, in the first half, we booked EUR 15 being a quarter of the EUR 60. We'll clearly true that up at a half year, and keep you posted on that. Maintenance, there's no change to maintenance. We said, at the full year, that the repairs would be pretty similar to last year. That probably splits, it was about EUR 90 last year, probably splits EUR 40 first half, EUR 50 second half. You can cut that in half if you want, as a rough guide to the quarters.
Yeah. Last, on the pricing question, I couldn't quite follow the line of questioning around Q4 price increases.
No, no. Sorry, sorry if I was unclear. Basically, you called out back in March already, which you repeated today, that you're fully booked on the unbleached sides. When you announced the April price increase, you talked about, you know, tendency upwards for OCC, but also fully booked, and you reiterated that. The question was really how has that changed from the end of Q4 to the end of Q1, if you like, the booking situation? The question was, did you have progress on that price increase announcement?
Sorry, I didn't get the last bit, but I think I get the gist of it.
You announced the price increase for April first, if I recall, in Poland.
Okay. Sorry. Yes. Yeah, you're correct in the sense that, I mean, clearly as we often stress, I mean, the nature of our cost base and our production base is such that we don't necessarily reflect the overall industry dynamic at any one time. You know, our low-cost volume out of Świecie is highly cost competitive and highly competitive on a, you know, in pretty much any sort of pricing and demand environment. That allows us to run full in, you know, what is a highly competitive operation. When it comes to the sort of pricing dynamic, clearly we saw prices erode across the piece.
I mean, most specifically in the recycled containerboard grades, which, and to a lesser extent in unbleached kraftliner and to even lesser extent in what we call the specialty products like the semi-chem and white top and the like. Because as you well know, through the cycle those invariably are more stable on the pricing, you know, in terms of the pricing dynamic, because you also sell them on a much broader basis, a much broader sort of niche. They're certain niche applications on a global basis that you sell that product. So the pricing dynamic always is a bit varied depending on the exactly which product producing there. In terms of the change momentum, et cetera, I mean clearly Q1 was generally soft in terms of the overall demand for the industry as a whole.
As I said in the opening commentary or opening question, it does feel as though things are stabilizing, particularly in the call it brown grades of containerboard now. As you well know on the recycled side you are starting to if anything see a little bit. I mean that's the one cost item which has come off but is now starting to come up a bit which is paper for recycling. That's, you know, perversely is quite good for us in terms of our relative positioning because of our long virgin position. That is offering a bit of cost support I think at the high end of the recycled containerboard cost curve.
You know, the markets just feel as though they're improving somewhat and yeah, we're in discussion with customers around price increases now as opposed to, you know, the price reductions we've seen over the course of the last six months.
Just one follow up if I may just on the cash, in Russia as sorry it comes to that. Essentially what if I interpreted what you said, like if that this cash that has been generated stays with the buyer. Is that what you said?
Yes. That's absolutely correct. Thank you, Lars.
Okay, perfect. Thank you.
Ex the dividend.
Ex the dividend. Yeah. We sold the business to Ex the dividend.
Correct.
Which you talked about upfront. Yeah.
Correct. Yeah. Yeah.
Thank you.
Thanks. Thanks, Lars.
The next question is from James Twyman with Prescient. Please go ahead.
Yes. Thank you very much. Yeah, I've just got two questions. The first one was on fine paper. It looks like industry demand was down sort of 20% or so in the quarter. Could you give some idea about where you were? Presumably you were down but, maybe not quite so much. Secondly just on Russia, a lot of deals have happened in the paper sector and elsewhere. Could you give me any, us any idea of why you think this transaction has been such an outlier in terms of progress? Thanks.
James, just quickly, I mean obviously on the second question it's all pure speculation. No one knows exactly the machinations of what transactions get approved or what don't. Size is, has to play a part although as you rightly say there have been deals of bigger scale that have been approved. I mean we would say this but it's a good asset and I guess the Russian authorities are keen to make sure it goes into the hands that they think is appropriate. We believe we have the right buyer, importantly for us to take the business forward and ensure we achieve a clean exit.
That, that is remains our priority to work with Augment who we think is an appropriate buyer but the rest I'm afraid is pure speculation both on our part and anyone else who's observed this process. In terms of the UFP demand, yes you're right. I think just to be very clear, I mean we make it clear in the statement as well. You know, we offer, we operate in two regional markets. I mean Europe and well Central Europe and Southern Africa. In Southern Africa demand is pretty good, and the pricing is stable and, you know, the business is operating very solidly. In Central Europe, you are right in that, I mean the market was particularly soft in Q1.
I think there's also a big destocking effect taking place there. A lot of merchants obviously had a lot of stock and they said you don't want to be, you know, buying a new stock while they're running down the old. Yeah, we outperformed pretty well relative to the overall market, but it still showed volume declines year-on-year. Obviously, in some cases you choose to do that because you certainly don't want to be selling poor margin business and particularly in Neusiedler where as I stressed earlier it makes sense only for us to be selling specialty type of products and hence why we've taken a structural decision around closing PM6. Okay. James, thank you. Operator, I think we've got time for one last question.
The last question is from David O'Brien with Goodbody. Please go ahead.
Morning, guys. Just made the cut. Two for me if I could, please. Firstly, on sustainability. I guess the feedback from most of the sector has been the conversion from plastic to paper over the last two and a half years has kinda been inhibited by how busy your customer base has been. It'd be interesting to see if you could give us some color maybe how the pace of conversion has evolved over the last six months, and your experiences, and how you see the price differential between paper-based solutions and plastic, given your kinda unique positioning. Secondly, on M&A and the environment that we all kind of face into at the moment. You touched on your balance sheet. Looks pretty strong.
What is the Mondi appetite to do deals, and how have the opportunities in front of you evolved over the last couple of months?
Yeah, thanks. Again, maybe I'll go backwards on that. I mean, in terms of M&A, I mean, we've made it clear and, I mean, for a number of years, we've made it clear. You know, we see M&A as part of our, call it, armory for growth. We always weigh it up against all our other options. Of course, on M&A, you have to be somewhat opportunistic because invariably, the right opportunities don't come exactly when you expect them. We have to always work within a sort of overall framework. Clearly we see M&A as an option both, you know, to grow in both our packaging verticals. We remain open and we remain, you know, actively looking at opportunities.
As you rightly say, we have the financial capacity to act, and you would feel it's more of a buyer's market. Certainly the listed valuation would imply it's a buyer's market. If that translates also into expectations amongst independent unlisted sellers, then of course, that creates opportunity for us. Unfortunately, as always, you can never put a probability on these things. You know, we're adamant about is we will always retain our disciplines around, you know, from a valuation perspective. Yeah, always remains an option. On the sustainability front, firstly I'd like to pick you up on one thing. I don't think sustainability is all about just paper to plastics.
I think, you know, as you well know, we operate across that spectrum. As you know, we always talk about paper where possible, plastic when useful. In the plastic side, there's also an opportunity to drive the sustainable offerings because we are making replacing non-recyclable products with fully recyclable plastic solutions. There's a lot of work going into the whole value chain there in terms of making sure that plastic is indeed fully recycled. I think there's a lot of development taking place there. There's also a lot of development taking place in what I call the hybrid solutions, where you take predominantly paper and you add some functionality to it, invariably using a resin or other type of substrate. There's a lot of exciting development there.
Of course, on top of that, you know, there is substitution of plastic by paper, where the functionality is available on the paper side. I think all of that very much continues. I mean, our customers, when we talk to them, remain highly committed to this area. I think it is fair to say that in a, you know, in times of sort of economic pressure, where everyone's looking at their costs and are trying to manage costs, of course it does in some instances slow the rate of adoption of what is almost invariably a more expensive solution. I think the trend is very clear and it will continue, but obviously the pace will ebb and flow depending on the economic circumstances at the time.
The way I characterize it, I think where you're seeing a business where the packaging itself is at quite a high proportion of the overall value of the product, obviously that's where customers are particularly price sensitive on the packaging side, where the packaging is a very, you know, is a low value relative to the total value of whatever is being produced. It's obviously being driven by customer preferences around the desire for sustainable solutions, et cetera. You know, the adoption there continues, I believe at pace. Yeah, I think in the short term you might see a bit of a slowdown in that take-up, but certainly the trend is very clear and certainly the commitment we see amongst our customers to adopt sustainable solutions is very real and continues apace.
We continue to invest behind that, as you well know, with a number of these investments being very much predicated around driving these sustainable packaging solutions. We are extremely confident that it remains a very strong trend in the industry. I think with that, we have to go and talk to our shareholders at the AGM. Thank you very much for your attention. I think we appreciate as always the interest and you're welcome to follow up with any questions. We are available through the day. Thank you.
Thanks.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining. The conference is now over, and you may disconnect your telephones.